The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Dr. Drew Pinsky On Mastering Mental Health, Build Resilience, Thrive In The Digital Age, & Trauma Recovery

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

#856: Join us as we sit down with Dr. Drew Pinsky – renowned board-certified internist, addiction medicine specialist, & media personality. Dr. Drew rose to fame as the co-host of the iconic MTV show Loveline, hosted Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew on VH1, & currently leads conversations on health, addiction, & culture as the host of Ask Dr. Drew. With decades of frontline experience in addiction treatment & mental health, Dr. Drew has guided tens of thousands – including high-profile celebrities – on their path to recovery. In this episode, Dr. Drew unpacks the rise of narcissism rooted in unresolved childhood trauma, the mental health impact of smartphones & increasing disconnection from reality, & how medical overprescription is driving the opioid epidemic. He also dives into parenting strategies in the digital age, the psychological differences between sociopaths & psychopaths, & why building resilience through exposure therapy is more important than ever!   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM   To connect with Dr. Drew Pinsky click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   Head to our ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of the products mentioned in each episode.   Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone].   Visit http://istandwithmypack.org to support I Stand With My Pack’s (ISWMP) mission by donating or adopting. Every contribution helps!   This episode is sponsored by ARMRA Go to http://tryarmra.com/SKINNY or enter SKINNY to get 15% off your first order.   This episode is sponsored by Hiya Health Receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to http://hiyahealth.com/SKINNY.   This episode is sponsored by Jolie Head to http://jolieskinco.com/SKINNY to try it out for yourself with FREE shipping.   This episode is sponsored by Prolon Just visit http://ProlonLife.com/SKINNY to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift.   This episode is sponsored by OSEA  Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code SKINNY at http://OSEAMalibu.com.   This episode is sponsored by Nowadays Visit http://trynowadays.com and use code SKINNY at checkout for 20% off your first purchase.   Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show. Today we have one of our favorite recurring guests who's also become a friend. Today we are joined by someone who's been in our ears and on our screens for over 30 years. Doctor, addiction specialist, cultural commentator and literal legend, Dr. Drew Pinsky from

Love Lion to Teen Mom, Celebrity Rehab to Ask Dr. Drew Pinsky from Love Lion to Teen Mom Celebrity Rehab to Ask Dr. Drew. He's been talking about the stuff no one else will for years, addiction, sex, trauma, health and why our culture is kind of losing it. He still practices medicine, he still tells the truth and he's here with us today to talk about the hard things as usual, the stuff affecting all of us. Buckle up, buckle in. Our friend Dr. Drew Pinsky, welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her show. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. Is society watching too much porn? Yes.

So why is society watching more porn and what is it doing? What's the effects on society? We don't know, right? And it has created a whole army of young men who are porn addicted, mostly caused by being exposed at an age when it gets in so powerfully that it becomes sort of a compulsion, like eight, nine, 10 years old, kids are being exposed to porn. And not just porn, but you know, it wasn't like opening a Playboy magazine. It's hardcore stuff.

And your brain is not, as we say it, it shatters the upper limits of the brain's capacity to manage and it becomes kind of traumatizing. And things are traumatizing in that critical windows. It becomes a compulsion of preference, something you're sort of attracted to. And then it goes and it just more and more and more. So are they seeing like, are they seeing sex in a way that sex is not, it's not, it's not almost real. It's like acting.

No, no, they're just selecting the highest level of arousal and reward that the brain can achieve. And it's why it progresses. That's why people get into material that is problematic because they, the, the sort of what is just sort of overwhelming for the average person becomes sort of bland if they're looking at it all the time and they need that level.

It's like any addiction, it progresses, right? Gets worse with time. And that's how people end up in, you know, crazy, dangerous stuff. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's when we were kids, we're still of that generation where like, if you were lucky to, it's like, it's when we were kids, we're still of that generation where like, if you were lucky to, lucky, if you were lucky to, to find a magazine in a canyon somewhere,

that would be the thing. If you find- Who's finding a magazine in a canyon? I feel like that's a personal story. Every adolescent male has found a plane where something either in a trash bin, behind a grocery store or a canyon, something. Why were they in the canyons?

Now that I think about it? Because other guys like you were throwing them out there. That's right. You're scared to get caught. You're like, what do you do? You throw it in the canyon. Yeah, exactly. Or if you found by chance that this was like, whoa, like a VHS tape from like the 80s or 70s, you know, and it was like not high quality.

That was about it. But now, you know, I have a friend who's older than us and he has kids that are getting into their teens and he was saying the stuff they're exposed to and the stuff they see, the things that he found were so problematic and it was so aggressive and so far beyond the norm of typical sexual experiences for, you know, anyone really, that it was causing all sorts of issues for that person.

Well, there's a lot of potential corollary issues aside from addiction, right? I think people make a lot of how As you said, it's unrealistic and sort of young males are being taught This is what women want young females are looking at. Whoa, is that what it means to be a female? Are you seeing different effects on women as opposed to men? In what sense? The answer is yes. But what are you thinking? With porn? Yes.

Are you seeing anything with women in porn? Yes. Uh, I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. I go, men are more prone to the porn addiction. You know, back to the women in porn. I remember I talked to Stormy Daniels years ago, right now, before she became infamous for the Trump thing. And, uh, and she was on the radio show.

I remember we used to have love line back in the day. And she said, you know, I've been producing and directing porns for a long time now. And she goes, and I, and I, I now I completely understand what women want from porn and what men want from porn. Men want to see people having sex. Women want to know why those two people like each other so much that they want to have sex.

So there needs to be some sort of story. Like a story. Yeah. What is one uncomfortable truth right now with our society that no one wants to admit? You know, it depends what day you're talking to me. Uh, the, the part I'm sort of struggling with right now is that people are really detached from reality, that they are living in this world where they're constructing it out of narratives and ideologies and things.

And that is really dangerous. If you're not in, mental health comes from accepting reality in reality's terms, being able to adaptively, resilient respond to reality. If you are denying reality, that's a problem. We call that delusionality. In addition, there is, and it's something I've been doing for a long time, I've been doing for a long time, being able to adaptively resilient respond to reality. If you are denying reality, that's a problem. We call that delusionality.

In addition, there is, and it's something I've been writing about for years. I wrote a book about it 15 years ago about narcissism and childhood trauma. And I could see it coming, Christopher Lashaw had coming, you could see. And I saw it, I used to work in, worked in a psychiatric hospital for 30 years.

And when I first got there in the eighties, you know, they have these diagnostic sheets and part of the diagnosis spectrum is the personality disorders you have to fill out when they come in. And back when I got there in like 1984, 85, the personalities that were being represented on the admission sheets were all over the place, all the different kinds of, you know, they're called A, B and C clusters of personality. And towards the end of the 80s, I started seeing a lot of borderline personality. And as we went into the 90s, only what are called cluster B personality,

which are the narcissistic disorders. Everybody, every single patient had a cluster B diagnosis. And I watched it change and I thought, oh, this is, and I was hearing it on the radio, hearing all the trauma every night. I was hearing all the trauma every night. I was hearing all the compulsions and all the acting out and all the crazy and the drug use. I mean, I watched it kind of happen in real time.

Uh, now I forgot what the question was. You asked me. Why, why did that change happen? What, like, what was the cause? Oh, the, the underlying, the underlying influence is childhood trauma. That kids were physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglected, ruptured families, adverse childhood experiences.

My profession didn't even admit that it were called ACS, Adverse Childhood Experiences, or ACEs rather, would necessarily adversely impact people's psyche. It's so crazy. And we know for sure that experiences that happen in childhood have a disproportionate effect on all that is to follow, okay? So you are seeing right now one of the problems with

society is there's a lot of delusion and detachment. Delusion and what? Detachment. Is that the right word? Detachment from reality. And then also narcissism. Okay. And the liability of narcissism, childhood trauma, childhood trauma creates narcissism for the most part. I mean, it's a not a direct line, but that sort of sets people up for that. And probably narcissist is there and it's, and again, I use these terms non-pejoratively. In other words,

they're just ways of describing people as far as I'm concerned, but narcissists have liabilities and the narcissism liability is envy and empathic failure. And so envy and grievance and victim is something very, very common right now, right? I'm envious. That guy, you guys have a great business here. I'm not just jealous, I'm envious. And envy, in envy you have to knock somebody down. It's not just, that makes me jealous, uncomfortable, I'm going to work hard to get what they have. No, no, no, I got to destroy them.

Fuck those guys. That's envy and envy is alive and well. And one of the thing narcissists do, you're, you're, you see, you still look at your disbelief, what I'm saying, or I'm upsetting you. No, you're not upsetting me. It's not low energy as you need for your pregnancy. No, no, it's interesting like to hear this broken down from a behind the scenes perspective. Yeah.

So the other thing that narcissists do is they, all that narcissistic you need for your pregnancy. No, it's interesting to hear this broken down from a behind the scenes perspective. Yeah, so the other thing that narcissists do is all that narcissistic rage and envy, if they were acting out all the time, it would be hard to go through life, but they can gather together and focus it with other narcissists on one person, we call that a scapegoat.

And so scapegoating has been alive and well. I, I urge you to look no further than the cancel culture that is all scapegoating mechanism. And it is no different than guillotines in 1789 France, it's the exact same thing, same grievance, same everything, same delusionality, same mass formation, same mob behavior happened in Russia beginning of the 20th century happened in Germany in the middle of the 20th century,

and it happened to us. It's happening to us now, and it certainly happened during COVID. So that's my primer. Does it present itself typically in times of strife or stress like COVID? Well, sure, because yeah, I mean, because that's when people get scared, right?

And then they start going into camps and blaming and then becoming more delusional, right? But it is usually the case when you're threatened, like back to 1789, they had famine, they had real problems. And by the way, the Prussians were coming across the border. I mean, they didn't trust their king. And so, boom, now you have the Jacobins. So when you say detachment from reality, they're not... That's a curious word detachment

I just want to say a or delusion delusionality This a denial of reality. How do you? Yourself in your brain diagnose someone with narcissism. What are the layers of the onion? Is there really extreme cases? Sure, I mean there's different kinds of narcissism. There'sism. There's, you know, sort of grandiose narcissism and there's, that's the word I'm looking for. There's, there are narcissists that are dangerous to be around, let's face it. And it can begin to slip into sociopathy

where you really, really don't care about other people's feelings and other people are just there to be manipulated to serve your needs, okay? So how do I see it? It can be very hidden. There can be there can be a reverse narcissism. People that have a lot of codependency are sort of narcissistic, right? Even though they're focused on other people, they're really worried about themselves and so the you know they're sort of coming from the perspective of me. Ultimately underneath it is a very deep sense of emptiness and shame and an

incomplete sense of self and when people don't get what they need when they're growing up to develop a full sense of self and a sort of a flexible regulatory emotional system they build something on top of it and that something is something big that'll help protect them from the world and get from the world what they need. That's narcissism. So when someone comes to you and you can't really see, how do you uncover it? What are your tricks to uncover it? When I can't see it?

Sometimes you won't know without somebody's... and you don't even know if it's real narcissism or some just narcissistic trait, right? You have to know people for a while. Like, in my world, which is addiction, everybody comes in looking like a cluster B, right? No borderline, mostly sociopath and borderline. And by the time we finished treating them a year later, almost all that goes away.

And I don't, I never know if it goes away because they have to change in order to survive or was it really just a manifestation of the addiction? Or was it really there in the first place and it was just part of the addiction and they just, the treatment got them through it? I don't know. You don't see it in people normally getting over it without some really big reason.

If they have borderline though, is it, and they're an addict. If an addict comes in with borderline, does the borderline go away usually? Usually, yeah. Not always, but at least the, the, some of the intense features go away for sure. Cause they can't survive functioning like that. Their addiction will recur.

What addictions are you seeing right now the most? The thing that's other than opioids, which is like ridiculous, um, cannabis has gone way up because of the concentrations of THC and the. Because it's gotten so strong. So strong, so addictive now. I would just say that if you worry of problem with weed, if you're doing dabs, you have a

problem with weed. What's a dab? It's a, like wax and they sort of take out a torch and a glass pipe and they, they get these high concentrations of, of the high concentration THC rapidly delivered to the brain. I notice people are, a lot of people are leaving alcohol behind and switching to weed. Have you noticed that?

I've noticed a lot of people, Jill Rogan just said today, I saw it on something that he stopped drinking. Yeah. But he didn't say anything about weed, so I figured he's still with the weed. I don't know what he said about weed. I saw he stopped drinking, but I noticed a lot of people are like, they're shutting down because the young kids aren't out there popping bottles anymore. Like there's not as much alcohol use.

Is that? It seems like it. Okay. I know, I know my age group is certainly starting to cut down because it affects you and it's like, you can't. I even smell alcohol. I'm hungover for a week these days. When you're my age.

I'm still once in a while, once in a while, not as much. I can't wait for a freezing cold margarita, I'm going to be honest. I get it, I listen. It's rare though. I'm ready for one. It's much rarer these days. What effects are you seeing from the cell phone

on mental health? Not good. I think that's part of the disconnect from reality. I think it's keeping people, they live in a world where they think they understand what's real and what isn't and they just don't. You know, Corolla, I know you had it here recently, he calls it a zero gravity world

where everything just comes to you. You just dash, you know, door dash or Amazon, it just all kind of comes magically. Money doesn't exist. Human experience, human interaction doesn't exist. I don't have to go to a party and meet people. People are annoyed with human interaction. It's become an annoyance.

Well, this is another problem you're putting your finger on, which is I'm giving a lecture next week and it's a very stressful job. This group I'm speaking to is in a very, very stressful career. And they wanted some advice on how to manage all that. And I started doing some research on it

and you go to all the professional societies now like, Oh, find a quiet place and meditate and ask you, ask for relief, take days off. And I thought this, this is nuts. This is, these are, these people, when I was in training, when we felt overwhelmed, we moved in, we pushed, we pushed cause you needed to develop skill and resiliency

capacity and grit and I so I decided I'm gonna have a totally I'm gonna go through all the Safe space stuff for the for the group and then just go and do it. It's all BS You need to you need to you need to expose yourself exposure therapy is what we do in mental health now How do you treat OCD and anxiety exposure lean in? You know you have to do it in a certain way, in certain doses, and people gain the capacity to regulate in the setting of exposure. Not when you isolate, when you remove them from the stimulus, they can never, ever manage it.

I worry about this, and I wonder if maybe you and your wife worry about this too. I work a lot on my phone. Like that's, a lot of people do. I worry about the effects that it has on children. If I don't ever want my children to feel like they're being dismissed by me or Michael. What is your take on that? So, I think the important thing,

the television did the same thing, right? Uh, and work does the same thing too. So, the important thing is to know what kids need, right? So, what kids need, right? So what kids need is many, many, many thousands of hours of face-to-face contact where you're totally available and attuned to them. And by attuned, you have to... The way the brain...

You come in with your genetic endowment, right? And we end up developing attachment. And attachment is sort of the modifier of the relationship between the environment and the genetics, right? If you're securely attached, even if you have some genetic liabilities that secure attachment will help you build

an emotional landscape of regulation. So emotional regulation and self are the two goals, right? This is what kids need. And in order to build that emotional regulation, what they need is many, many thousands of hours of attunement, like you just going, you know, just looking and, you know, you do when they're a baby all the time, that needs to be done throughout childhood.

And then somewhere, four, five, six, they start moving out into the world and then coming back for refueling with you and you. And the refueling has to be done, you know, right face to face, eye to eye, where you're opening yourself to that child. If you misread the emotions, right, the child doesn't make a robust connection between their spontaneous emotions,

what we call second order representation. It turns out what we reflect on our face has a lot to do with what the child needs to build that emotional landscape. So, for instance, if one of your kids comes up to you, they're three years old, I hurt my finger, what do you do? Kiss him. Put my phone down if I'm on it. Yes, hopefully. What you do, what you do is something

that happens sort of automatically. Okay. Is first you go, mm, you have a boo boo, right? You do a pretend expression on your face of that child's emotion. You're not overtaken by the child's emotion. Oh my God, you're always hurting yourself. That child is not getting what he or she needs. You're like, mm, that sadness that you're feeling,

I'm reflecting on your face. You're mirroring it. Mirroring it, but I'm not catching it. It's not overtaking me and I'm not having my own reaction to it. I'm just staying present and calm as the child's emotions come at me. I reflect it back.

I give the child maybe some soothing affects alongside of that and that exchange is how the child comes to understand their own emotional landscape so how it's all done on a very subconscious level you know facial movements and stuff is what the child is zeroing into to connect with those deep which is why you can't have the phone in front of your face they won't get that. Exactly. How did you, as busy as you are, you're such an entrepreneur and you're working,

do that with three children and create- Susan, how did I do that? She's here. How did you guys do that with three children to create a secure attachment with all of them? And I was a workaholic, bad. So what did you do? No, we did the best we could.

I know, but- And thank God, thank God part of my workaholism was. So what did you do? No, we did our best, we did the best we could. I know, but- And thank God, thank God part of my workaholism was so she could stay home and do that. And she was there and a very dedicated mom. But how did, when you're saying you were a workaholic, how did that, with three triplets, or a set of triplets, how did it transpire?

Like, how did you start to notice that it had effect on them? If it did. My workaholism? Yeah. I didn't until years had effect on them? If it did. My workaholism? Yeah. I didn't until years later, one of them brought it up. Like you were never around, so yeah. So what do you do as Dr. Drew?

What do you say? I say, tell me more. And they just talked to you about it. Yeah, cause I, you're right. If you could go back. We were in survival mode. I don't think I could have done differently. We were in full survival mode.

I mean, I don't think anyone gives you a handbook on how to manage fame, working, and triplets. And a practice of medicine. I had three different medical careers going simultaneously. Ridiculous. So if you were to give advice as us with young kids doing what we do on this platform having our phone around What would you tell us? Put your phone down. Whenever they come in the room put it down.

Well, okay. So I have a friend that she's a psychologist and a lawyer and all she does is particularly adolescent girls. And her children, she only allows them I think one or two hours of their own phone time per day, period, end of story, not open for discussion. And I would try to find some structured way of... doing something similar with your phone, something structured where you're like, okay, I've got work now, I've got to go do work. It's not that I'm scrolling, doom scrolling on the phone.

It's like, mm, it's work right now, maybe even in front of the computer. So it's not, this doesn't have the same sort of impact, the phone itself. But you got to be ready to really fight that fight about the phone. It's really hard. What I've realized is like I have to have such specific purposeful boundaries around it. Mm-hmm. And if you aren't thoughtful about that, it will run you. That's a great way of saying it. It's like, there is no phone in my bed. There is no phone when I wake up.

There is no phone, you know, when I'm trying to connect with my kids, I really try to be thoughtful, but it is a lot of work. Especially when you're a workaholic. You're workaholic and you have a digital media company. You know, it's really wild. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have been in the world of addiction for years.

I mean, I believe that this is one of the greatest addictions of our time. I mean, again, I always worry about us over utilizing the construct of addiction as a model, but yes. It is certainly- Is it the same kind of brain patterns or no? It is, it is. Uh, it's just not quite the same, but, but

there, so the way our brain is constructed, do we have a reward apparatus? People get all screwed up about dopamine, right? When you get a dopamine surge, you don't feel anything. I'm totally convinced of that. Except the urge or the thought or the desire to repeat whatever it was that gave you that dopamine surge.

It's a part of the brain. There's two systems in the brain. There's the liking system and the wanting system. Liking is endorphin, weed, opiates, sex, food. Wanting is the part that says that that was good for survival. Do that again. You have to do that again to survive. And that's what gets taken over in addiction. You don survival. Do that again. You have to do that

again to survive. And that's what gets taken over an addiction. You don't even like it anymore and you're still doing it. Okay. That's what addiction is. In this thing, it's dopamine, but it's not at a level where- Yeah. I don't want to correlate this to like alcoholism or drug use. It's the same system, same idea. It's the medial forebrain bundle, it's the shell of the nucleus accumbens. That's where the do it again part of the brain is. And that's what's happening with the phone. You mentioned opiate addiction. Why is that so high? Well, it really started back with the, my profession and the overprescribing of opiates.

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And if you guys don't like it, you can return your Jolie for a full refund within 60 days. No questions asked. When you look back on celebrity rehab and all the work you did there, doesn't it make you want to do it again? Yes, I'd love to do it again. I know, I feel like you need to bring it now. And there's so many people I'd love to bring in too,

and it would be different, we would do it a little differently, have a whole different emphasis, but VH1 won't even talk about it. Well, why does it have to be on VH1? They own it, they own the whole thing. Why do they not want to talk about it? Who do we got to call on that?

Help me, I don't know. Why can't you do1? They own it. They own the whole thing. But why do they not want to talk about it? Who do we got to call on that? Tell me, I don't know. Why can't you do your own spin on it? Is there a non-compete? The producer that I did it with has actually tested that and VH1 has said no. Okay, well, I'm going to put it out there into the ether that I think that there should be a celebrity rehab

with a new fresh spin, like you said, and that VH1 needs to get on it. I think that there should be a celebrity rehab with a new fresh spin, like you said, and that VH1 needs to get on it because people want to see celebrities that are dealing with the same problems that they're dealing with. Yeah, yeah. They want it, it almost like,

I don't want to say normalizes it, but it makes it less taboo. When was the last season? Oh yeah, no, it's the road in so people are interested enough. That it affects anyone, it doesn't matter how much money you have, how much fame you have, it's addiction is addiction is addiction.

And mental health. Any mental health issue. All the same. What was the year the last season aired? How long has it been? 2009, I think? 2010? Who, out of all of them, who was your favorite person on the whole show? It's like, who's your favorite child?

You know who I really had deep affection for was Jeff Conway. Huh. So you like really wanted to help him get better. Yeah. I worked, we worked with him for a long time afterwards too, and just, it was just impossible. And it was because my peers kept giving him meds.

They kept, he kept, even when I take him off everything, his pain would go away. he'd start dancing, feel good. He's a drug addict, so he'd go back and see the pain people and they'd go, why do you listen to these guys? I told you, you're gonna need to take this the rest of your life. Eventually died of it. Is that because celebrities have like,

pull over all these people? Well, that's a whole other issue, which is that, sort of the Michael Jackson syndrome, right? Right. Which is, and I just said it today to somebody I think I just tweeted about it. Somebody was getting special care Oh President Trump got a CT of the chest and Nicole Sapphire and I were speculating on X What why do you get a CT of the chest you you've been pretty much it was a coronary calcium score

Maybe but you see to the chest that there's a smoking history and sometimes people advocate for it in their seventies. Anyway, we were just sort of going back and forth about it. And I finally said, look, special care is usually not good care. Cause the standard care is a standard for a reason. If you're getting somebody going, oh, I'm gonna give you special care or let's say I'm so excited that you come to me,

it's not good. I'm not gonna be using my judgment properly. And if that person is an addict, what they do is, and I've seen this a million times, the doctor gets sucked into it, ends up prescribing something addictive. The patient says, I've never felt so good. No one else would do this for me. You're the best doctor I ever had.

Doctors are feeling good. They get strung out. Doctor realizes there's a problem, says, hey, we got to stop this. Then the patient goes, I'm going to destroy you. I'm going to make sure no one ever sees you. You're the worst doctor ever. And they're just says, Hey, we got to stop this. Then the patient goes, I'm going to destroy you. I'm going to make sure no one ever sees you. You're the worst doctor ever.

And they're just in this weird, and Conrad Murray got stuck in that with Michael Jackson, right? Only you, only you can treat me, only you. And then he's in there going, what? A propofol infusion? Oh my God. It's crazy. Let's talk about relationships.

Last time you were on the show, something that really resonated with people, and I remember you said this, is you said open relationships, you've never seen them work in your whole entire career. Never. Is your stance still the same? It's certainly being tried more often. This is back to that world of delusionality where it should work, so should communism. There's lots of things that should work. So Taylor sorry, I can't do an open relationship with you. It's not going to work, Taylor. They just don't, the human can't handle it.

Just consider this, there are armies of professionals trying to help two people have a relationship. You think bringing a third person in is going to make that easier or better? No. Should, if people want to do it, I have no objection to it. It just, it, it, just look at the shows, all the shows with the sister wives and stuff,

how miserable everybody is. Everybody ends up miserable, especially the women. Especially the women end up just so miserable. And it's not, intimacy is, we're set up, so it's between two people. It's just how we're set up. And it's, if we're different, I would encourage having lots of people involved with it. It just isn't. It's just how we are. It's people. It's just how we're set up. And it's, if we're different, I would encourage

having lots of people involved with it. It just isn't. It's just how we are. It's humans. When you counsel couples, what's the main thing that you see in the relationship? From what perspective? Yeah, it's all, I'm dealing with addiction

when I deal with it, so it's all over the place. Yeah, so with addiction, there's a different element of it is what you're saying. There's, you know, there's the hardest part in addiction is to get the nod addict to realize they've got a lot of work to do too. A lot. Talk about that.

This codependency and some people actually think that's harder than the addiction. It's more, it's a more tender, delicate kind of a work that people have to do. Do you like Al-Anon for that or no? Yeah, oh yeah. The co-programs are essential. They're not, to me, to me 12 step isn't the whole story Do you like Al-Anon for that or no? Yeah, oh yeah. You do? The co-programs are essential.

They're not, to me, 12 Step isn't the whole story for anything, but it is essential story in all of it. At this point in your career, when you work with addiction, is it one-on-one, is it group, how are you working day to day? I'm not, day to day, I'm just doing general medicine. General medicine. Every other day somebody calls me with a consult

on addiction and I do a lot of referral and help and guidance and that kind of thing. I'm not running a program anymore. It was too much. And I got out really because of the overprescribing of opiates. I got so sick and tired of my peers killing my patients. Just it was over and over and over and over again.

It was awful. So they were just overprescribing every time your patients would go to them and then you were trying to manage the addiction and they would just keep over prescribing. So it was chiroactors. Just prescribing at all. I mean just the fact that they would prescribe them opiates and the whole thing would take off again. That's so frustrating. It was terrible and then they die and then they die and people go oh so you're very successful treating opiate addiction. We were very successful when the patient didn't go back

to the opiate prescriber, which their drug addicts, they do, I understand that. But the doctors should have been holding that line, sending it back to us, not saying to the patient, why do you listen to those guys? I told you, you have to take this forever. You have an opiate deficiency, essentially. You know, people have not been talking about

how much my profession was responsible. They want to blame the Sackler family and OxyContin. Yeah, yeah, duplicitous. It was my profession. Ex- did the whole thing, both also in 1890, we had our first opiate prescribing epidemic in 1890. It was when we invented the hypodermic needle, morphine sulfate, massive opiate overprescribing, Harrison Narcotic Act.

Doctors turned away from opiates for 50 years. Harris and Narcotic Act, doctors turned away from opiates for 50 years. Then we started having the sort of success treating cancer and patients were living with cancer and starting to have cancer pain because they were living longer with cancer. And a group of doctors came in and said, you should be using opiates. And everyone was like, oh, that's right. Okay. Opiates are addictive. Be

careful. And they ended up using them successfully and appropriately to treat cancer pain. Then they looked around and went, nobody should ever have any pain ever. Pain is what the patient says it is. Pain control is what the patient says it is. Let them have whatever they want. And that was essentially how the thing got rolling.

Then same thing as COVID, it was the exact same thing. It's then they got the regulatory agencies involved. They got the governments involved. they got the governments involved, they got the VA involved, they got the departments of mental health and the hospital administrators. You have to prescribe opiates. And if you don't, you're committing a crime.

Sound familiar? I have rapid fire questions. Most ridiculous health trend you've seen lately. That's a lot. Let it rip, let it rip. There's just so many odd things that people are talking about. Hold on, let me just, there are just so many weird things. I got a salmon semen facial before I was French.

Salmon semen? It's exosomes. Salmon semen. Exosomes are good. I'm sighing because I have a hobby of listening to French radio in the morning and stuff. And I just, it's just a weird hobby. You speak fluent French?

That's interesting. That's cool. And I heard a guy say this morning, he was a physician and he goes, he goes, look, I'm not an expert in health. I'm an expert in disease and I'm too busy doing that. And I thought, oh God, people need to understand that as physicians, this is exactly right. We are not health experts and we don't really,

I don't even know who the health expert is right now. I just know that we're not doing a great job as physicians and contributors. We had our friend Darshan Kaman who has Next Health here and he was, he's a. We know them. You know them. It's great.

And he was, you know. He's a great, he's great. He's amazing. And I love his story. You know, he was a cancer surgeon to begin with and he was like, I can't stand this anymore. Yeah, he did all the surgeries, but he was saying that he himself, for his own personal health,

like, had none of the answers for himself and he got super unhealthy and he had to go to other people and have those answers. And he was a medically trained doctor, surgeon, all of those things. But we aren't health experts. We have to make ourselves. And that's why I've gotten more involved in health

than exercise and diet and stuff lately. It's because I've done it my whole life for myself and my family. I'm embarrassed that I really haven't done it for my patients or other people. But let me think of weird health trends. Well, I didn't finish the story about the multiple partners thing.

Oh, go ahead, finish that. Because that whole thing, people tell me there are people for whom it works. I've just not seen it. And that's fine. Yeah, God bless you if it does work. It just to me, it just inevitably, do you watch Night of the Day Fiance?

I've never watched it. Everyone tells me I have to watch it. Okay. There's, there's one right now where it's like a typical outcome of somebody bringing a third in. It's like, this is like, oh yeah, that's the way it goes. That's the way it always goes.

Well, men can't multitask to begin with. So a third to me for a man just sounds like a fucking clusterfuck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how about how women feel about each other when they're vying for the same male? They don't feel good, I don't think. There's stuff that comes out that you can't control. And everyone wants to be the unicorn, Dr. Drew. You can't control it, yeah. They want to be the unicorn. But this is back to my saying, you got to be realistic about the human experience, what we are, how we behave, how we react. It's just, it's good. It's all good. We're good the way we are. We don't have to make

ourselves into something that we're not. Because listen, like every guy has their favorite pair of pants. And I think about it, like if you had two girls, it's like, you're always going to, you know, one's going to over time. Does that make sense to you? I do think it would be nice from a perspective where I could offset some of his energy onto someone else. Like that would be like. Women do say things like that. Yeah, like he's chatty Cathy in the morning. I could be like, listen, uh, uh, Sarah can take him. But what if Sarah's tired of it too, that time, then it's like,

Lauren, it's a big problem. We can try it. You want to, you want to, who you got in mind? Um, I don't know. Let's bring Brad Pitt and see. Listen, he's good looking enough that I might say yes. I don't know. Wow.

Okay. Best celebrity advice you ever gave that actually worked? Celebrity advice I gave that actually, you're asking me things that are sort of across so many years. I have to come up with these things from out of my playbook. This is what the audience wants. Okay, best celebrity advice.

Like two-way celebrity? How to deal with celebrity fame. Yeah, I was gonna say the best at, oh, oh. Or it could be your interpretation. It depends. What kind of question is this? No, this is a good one. This is actually, I've got it.

It's a good one, Michael. This is somebody, this is a big movie star who had real trouble with addiction and he dropped away for a while. You can speculate by who I'm talking about. He went away for, he had really bad addiction and he dropped away for a while. You can speculate by who I'm talking about. He went away for, he had really bad addiction. And he went away, I worked with him a little bit, and when he finally got serious and just went away for like three years.

And at the end of that three years, I saw him and he goes, should I ever act again? And I thought, oh, that's a heavy, heavy question, both because he's a brilliant actor. And it's like, I'd be taking that away from him and from us. And I just said, I don't know. I'm not sure. I didn't say, I said, oh no, you're going to turn to acting.

I did not say that. I said, well, let's just see how it goes. Let's see. And, and I worked with him very little bit when he went back into acting, where he just stayed connected with all of his sober support and he started doing small things and then more things and then more things and back to the huge career again and was fine and still sober. And that to me was one of the most thrilling examples

of how you're supposed to do it. That's cool that you helped him. Yeah. That's cool that you're a part of that. I was a tiny, and when I say a part, I didn't even know if he would remember it to be honest. It was such a tiny piece, but it jumped out at me like he's asking me a heavy question Yeah, and then the little bits of help that I did do after that. He just responded to all of it

He just was he was ready. He's ready to work What's one thing people would be shocked to learn about you? Something that people don't know about that. I have all the same things that everybody else else has? Everything, you name it, I got it. I have codependency, I have depression, I have a dyadisorder, I was really bad in college. So what did you do knowing everything you knew when you had... Oh, don't even start me. One of the reasons I got into all this is because what was done to me.

So here I am in college, in New England, didn't know I was going to be living in New England. It was sort of getting my ass kicked academically. I developed, I got lost in terms of what I wanted to do with my life. I developed panic attacks. I mean disabling panic attacks. And I remember I went to the student health thing. No, no. I went to the, I went first to the mental health, the psychological services, which were not connected to the health department of the student services. It was in the bell tower. It was actually bats in the bell free. It was actually the psychological service was in the

freaking bell tower. Quasimodo and all. I know. And I went up there and I, and they went, yes, yes, this is not a medical problem, but it could be, so go get on and get a medical evaluation. And as I went down to go to medical evaluation, this guy looks at me and he goes, get it together. Take some long walks in the woods.

And I was like, God, I would, if that would, I've tried every, I. Was that my dad? Exactly. And I thought, and I got into disabling, horrible, chronic panic and depression because they so badly mismanaged me. And, uh, I just thought, first of all, I thought somebody needs to be trained in what it is to

give healthcare to a young person, to an adolescent. There was no adolescent healthcare then. And I thought that's missing. Uh, secondly, I'm kind of interested in depression and anxiety and I want to make sure no one ever goes through what I went through. Uh, and so I kind of, you know, I was in depression and anxiety and I want to make sure no one ever goes through what I went through.

And so I kind of, you know, I was into neuroscience in college, so I sort of go in that path, but I was so badly mismanaged. Ugh. So it gave you, it gave you help on how to manage people moving forward in purpose. It didn't. It gave me, it gave me perspective on how not to

manage people and something I never want anybody to go through. What I went through, it was just, ugh. We had an expert come on the podcast and talk all about the benefits of fasting and it was absolutely fascinating. I have done a fast like three times. I've used the ProLon and it's amazing. It's the five day program.

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by a friend of mine, Lucy, probably about five years ago. And she was really passionate about how much that I Stand With My Pack helps dogs. So what they do is they rescue dogs from high kill shelters in Southern California, and they help them find loving foster homes or forever homes. There is an urgent need right now for donations and fosters. So even if you can donate a dollar, every dollar counts. This goes to helping to cover medical care, food, transportation for rescue dogs. You can donate or sign up to foster at istandwithmypac.org. That's istandwithmypac.org.

I also sometimes will just Venmo them. It makes it really simple. More information at istandwithmypac.org. I think a lot of people, including us, will be shocked to realize that about you. Do you still have to deal with those issues today or you've gotten so many tools? I do. I'm prone to depression.

It's kind of where my workaholism comes in because I noticed when I don't work a lot, my mood goes off a little bit. Yeah. You just get like a little blue and you catch it? Just a little. I have to go exercise or something because it just gets a little sideways.

And I'm like, because I always have still a lot of work. I'm coming to see you guys. I'm doing something interesting, but I need that arousal. It worries me for when I get much older and not doing much. How does that work with your wife? How do you guys? How's that work? Right now we're working together.

Are you a workaholic like him? Oh, it's always the husband. They always do it wrong. You do? Cause it's cause I like him when he's happy. You do? Yeah. Cause it's, cause it like exhausts his energy. He's happy. I'm, yeah, I'm better.

Yeah. So when he gets in a bad mood, do you say like, go work, get out of my hair? Yeah. I had to tell you something this morning that I just like didn't, it's weird that she, we've known each other for so long, but she doesn't get it. It takes me like, I wake up with a shitload of energy in the morning. That's there. So I think she's used to that, but I was like, it takes me takes me like, I wake up with a shitload of energy in the morning, that's there, so I think she's used to that, but I was like,

it takes me a second to like get my mood, like in a place where I'm. This is the trick to waking up in the morning. Not sad, but like I need like a little moment to like see the butterflies and the birds. I had the unliked, no, you have to, when you wake up and Dr. Drew can speak more eloquently on this, but everyone is looking

for the saber-toothed tiger the second you open your eyes, this is my thought. So what I. You're talking about, this is about me? No, it's about everyone. So second you open your eyes. This is my thought. So what I. This is about me? No, it's about everyone. Oh. So when I open my eyes, instead of looking for the saber tooth tiger, I've immediately tricked my brain to look at what I'm grateful for. That little unlock. No, the second you,

you know, you're like. I don't think it's that. I lately have been doing gratitude lists too. Just, you just switch your brain instead of being like, oh, instead of, oh, I have such a busy day. I'm so busy today. I say, wow, I get to interview Dr. Drew. I'm the opposite. I look for the saber tooth tiger right before bed.

Then I can calm it down and get rid of it. But when I wake up, I'm really not like that. My favorite thing about my husband is he wants to have a whole saber tooth tiger conversation when I have fucking mouth tape on at night, winding down in my sanctuary with red light and five to eight Hertz frequencies on. And then after I get it out, I sleep like a baby. I'm like.

Maybe she asked about weird health things. I was thinking about red lights. I was thinking about red lights. Just so you know, but okay, keep going. No, but that's not. One of the things that didn't seem dramatic enough. I have a moment to like get my, you know, like that scene in Cinderella where all like the birds

are chirping and she's singing. I need like, I need like 30 minutes to get to that place. When I first wake up, I'm like, I'm not there yet. And she's like. Okay, well I'll sleep the extra 30 minutes that you need to get there. And when I'm awake, hopefully it's there.

I'm awake before. This is the last question. It's really uplifting, not, um, what defines a psych, a sociopath. Let me ask you again. What defines a sociopath? You mentioned that at the beginning of the episode. Yeah.

And you almost said psychopath, right? What's the difference? And people are, it's a controversial difference. Okay. Personally, I believe psychopaths don't have emotions. They've literally that part of their brain where emotions occur doesn't function normally. Do you ever see the lecture by a guy named James Fallon?

He was UC Irvine professor who was studying psychopaths and he'd isolated the part of the brain He did functional MRIs and he had the part of the brain where it wasn't working And he said he got his families to come in and do a bunch of controls And his control sat on his desk for a long time and finally his his research assistant says you got to get these things off Your desk and just read them. So you read them read them He goes, oh one of the one of the psychopaths got in on the on the pile, who's is this? And it opens it up, it's his, it's the researcher, it's Dr. Fallon's. And he was like, was in disbelief about it, must be a mistake. Turns out he's a psychopath and his and he went and talked to his family members and they were

all like, oh yeah, you're you're an asshole and you don't really have feelings and it turned out he had a flavor of psychopathy where he particularly didn't have feelings about family members and when he went back in in generations there'd been multiple murders of family members all the way back to his relative Lizzie Borden, who was a famous murderer of her family. And yeah. So it can be genetic? It is genetic. It is psychopathy. And psychopaths that get abused in childhood,

those are the dangerous ones. Because now they're acting out all this aggression and compulsions. And that's like the boy that tries to kill a dog or something. Yeah, well, yes, yes. So there's sociopath and psycho. Sociopath is more in the cluster B personality,

though some people might say that a severe sociopath is a psychopath. To me, because I treat so many sociopaths, they are a certain thing. Um, they can be very charming, very entertaining, great to be around. So psychopaths have to learn what emotions are and just behave as if they're emotions.

And if you're carefully tuned into them, it feels weird when you're around them, it feels empty and weird. But a sociopath can feel very engaged. They can be fun as hell. When you say that you treat a bunch of them, are you treating the addiction and that's a byproduct as being a sociopath,

or you actually treat just sociopaths without addiction? I'm only seeing it in the setting of addiction, but both types occur. Sociopaths without addiction? I'm only seen in the setting of addiction, but both types occur. Sociopaths get addiction and addiction that manifests with sociopathy, okay? And hard to tell which is which, to be honest. But in any event, and sociopaths really, when push comes to shove, really don't care about you.

They, you don't matter at all. You just matter what you can do for them. When it clicks, when someone's like, I don't want to say normal, but not a sociopath and they have a sociopath around and it clicks that that person's a sociopath. What's the best way for the person to disengage? Um, what I want to say is if you're going to get away from that person, you got to do it swift and sure. But what are the, is there anything like that they say or do that's like a common denominator or no?

I mean, some sort of what we call patho-pneumonic, some sort of sign that they say that you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm, no. It's more like lack of empathy. Lack, you can't rely on them. They manipulate, they get stuff out of you if you regret it. They use it against you.

They use it against you. They just master manipulators. That's the main thing to think about. And it's not to be confused with a narcissist. It can look, there can be a lot of crossovers. It's hard to separate them. Most are narcissists. Yes, it is hard. Most are narcissists.

That's hard for you, I'm sure, to like separate. I mean, maybe. I don't really have to because they're going to change so much in treatment. I don't know what I have. Right. I sort of, I'm agnostic when they come in because I just, you got to focus on treatment.

Let's see where we end up. I got a weird question. How can you tell if you're a sociopath, if you're someone listening. It's a really good question. Michael wants to know if he's a sociopath, Dr. Joe. So if you find yourself. Or more of a psychopath, bro.

Yeah. I remember, I remember. Was I abused? I don't know. I'm just kidding. The abuse for sure can set it up. Lauren's abusing me. That's who's abusing me.

Different thing. I remember a couple of times on radio, we had young people call in and go, I said, I think I've got a problem. I think there's something that way with me. And I go, well, why? They got, I don't really care when other people hurt. I don't really have feelings. Other people are, I see stuff on TV.

Other people seem upset. I'm not. And if I want something from somebody, I'll just figure out a way to get it. And it is very cold blooded and sort of. And so. That's an indication. Yeah.

But if they're asking that question, is that a front or it sounds like, you know, weird where they almost care. Does that make sense? They're worried about themselves. They're worried they might hurt somebody. They're worried that they're going to have a challenging life. Okay. So self preservation is part of it.

There's something called a pro social psychopath or sociopath where they can actually develop an exquisite moral compass. Because they have no moral sensibilities emotionally, it's a very mathematical thing. Almost like a virtue signal. No, no, no, they mean it. They live by, they know the morality, they have a sense of it being good,

they want to live a good life, and they develop a keen sense of right and wrong, huh, but they don't have a It's like the Robin Hood of sociopaths. I do you ever heard of a the trolley experiment? okay, trolley experiment is there's a trolley going down the tracks and You can throw you can pull this switch and if you do Let's see, how's it work? Yeah, and if you do, you pull the switch, the trolley goes off the track and kills somebody standing on the other track, but you save the five people in the trolley.

Do you pull the switch? Well, does everyone die? Yes, no, the one dies. One guy dies, but you save the five. But if you don't pull it. No, all five definitely gonna die. Well, the right answer is. Who's the one dies one guy dies, but you say don't pull it. No all five definitely gonna die Well, the right answer is who's the one guy? You pull the switch

It's a trick question. I'm pulling the switch comes next the train comes next. So now okay, so now Same five people are going to the trolley They're gonna die and you can only stop it by pushing, you're on a bridge now, there's a fat guy with a backpack sitting next to you, you have to push him off the bridge, fall in front of the trolley to save the five. You're going to push him off the bridge? We've got a psychopath in the opposite. He's our producer.

Well, all the fives is going to die, including you. No, not you, not you. You're on the bridge, you're standing on the bridge, but this big guy next to you, if you push him off the bridge, you'll save the five. It's the same, it's the same as pulling the leg you. No, not you, not you. You're on the bridge, you're standing on the bridge, but this big guy next to you, if you push him off the bridge, you'll save the five. It's the same as pulling the lever, right? Yeah, it feels different to push him.

It feels different. That's moral sensibility. You have to touch him. It's moral affect. And most people have trouble doing that, right? Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable. Now, let's see what he says about this. Taylor. This is what Taylor says when it goes next. So now the's see what he says about this. Taylor.

This is what Taylor says when it goes next. So now the guy next to you is your son or your uncle. Okay. Do you push him off in front of the train? I would never push my son off for anything. Right. Like, I hate to tell everyone, like if Michael's on that train, like bye Michael.

That's not romantic. No, I think that's a normal mother instinct. Okay. It's an interesting wrinkle on the experiment. We can maybe, you know, what does the motherly instinct do to moral sensibilities in extreme circumstances? Do most people in that situation- Most people cannot put a family member off.

Most people can't push the fat guy standing next to them. And, um, but it's just, but, but the psycho, the, the pro social psychopath will literally say, it's just math. It's just math. I gotta say the five. So if we just answered that everyone who's listening would be like, fuck, I've been listening to a psychopath for seven years.

Oh, if you, if you. Pro social sociopath. Yeah. Yeah. Or pro, pro social psychopath, technically. Pro social psychopaths. No, you're not. You, or pro-social psychopath, technically. Pro-social psychopath. No, you're not. You're not a pro-social psychopath.

You just are, you're just a, what would you- A normie? No, what would a killer of a husband be? A regicide? What would a husband killer be? But if anyone, if anything happens to me, everyone in this room- A black widow.

I would never kill you. That's too on the nose for me. I would do something way more manipulative. Ending on sociopath. Let's start by something fun. Come on. Killing you is way too easy. Don't worry. You guys must have something just easy and casual for me to handle.

No, no, no, no. We haven't seen you in a long time. We haven't seen you in a long time. I gotta get back here sooner. Anytime you can come on anytime. Where can everyone find what you're working on?. You can open an invite anytime you want. Where can everyone find what you're working on or doing? Where I want you to go is ask Dr. Drew Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday at 2 o'clock.

It is a streaming show. It's on Rumble. It's on YouTube. You do have an open invite on our show anytime because you are so good on the mic. So just anytime you want to come on, you're welcome. Well, we can just go on and on and on. Oh yeah, I love hanging out with you guys. Thank you Dr. Drew.

Thank you for coming on. Great to see you guys. Great to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.