The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Dr. Jaime Zuckerman On How To Spot The Narcissists In Your Life & What To Do Once You Spot Them

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

#502: On today's episode we are joined by Dr. Jaime Zuckerman. Dr. Zuckerman is a national expert in narcissism and narcissistic abuse. She is a relationship coach for both men and women nationwide who are experiencing narcissistic abuse in their current relationships and for those who have experienced this type of abuse in the past. Dr. Z is also a licensed clinical psychologist in private practice, specializing in the treatment of adults with anxiety, mood disorders, and relationship difficulties. Today we discuss how to spot the narcissists in your life and what to do when you spot them.    To connect with Dr. Jaime Zuckerman click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697)   This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential   The Hot Mess Ice Roller is here to help you contour, tighten, and de-puff your facial skin and It's paired alongside the Ice Queen Facial Oil which is packed with anti-oxidants that penetrates quickly to help hydrate, firm, and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, leaving skin soft and supple. To check them out visit www.shopskinnyconfidential.com now.  This episode is brought to you by Sakara Sakara is a wellness company anchored in food as medicine, on a mission to nourish your body through the power of plants. Go to www.sakara.com and use code SKINNY at checkout to recieve 20% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by LMNT LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. It contains a science-backed electrlyte ratio: 1000mg sodium, 200mg potassium, and 60mg magnesium. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinkLMNT.com/SKINNY   This episode is brought to you by Gravity Crave better sleep? Ready for an all-around wellness upgrade? Then you need a Gravity weighted blanket. Visit GravityBlankets.com/Skinny, use code SKINNY for 15% off any Gravity product. This episode is brought to you by Cymbiotika Cymbiotika is a health supplement company, designing sophisticated organic formulations that are scientifically proven to increase vitality and longevity by filling nutritional gaps that result from our modern day diet. Use code SKINNY at checkout to receive 15% off your first purchase at cymbiotika.com This episode is brought to you by Hims&Hers State of Sex.   It’s never been simpler to treat ED and early climax from home. So skip the doctor’s office and head to For Hims.com/SKINNY to start your online visit for FREE.   This episode is brought to you by Lexus   The Lexus RX is the best-selling luxury crossover of all time and the best-selling luxuryvehicle every year since it was first introduced. But Lexus has never mistaken being  ahead with being at the finish line. – So, they’ve reimagined every aspect of the RX. Visit Lexus for more information on all new features. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Recently, we worked with Hims and Hers in New York City, and it was about all things sex. And we just did a whole bonus episode on nine myths surrounding sex based on a 2022 sex survey, which was fun. If you haven't heard that, go listen to it. Do you think that improving your sex life could improve your overall quality of life? If you guys answered yes, you're not alone. So you may have heard us talk about this in a recent episode. And according to a new study from HIMSS, 63% of people feel the same way. Sex is great. It makes you glow. It makes you healthier, happier. I mean, I love sex. Who doesn't? I think we should embrace that energy. So on that note, when there's something that is impacting

your sex life, maybe erectile dysfunction, whatever it is, it can be hard to know who to turn to for help. And HIMS provides simple access to trusted treatments. So if you want to learn more, you can go to 4hims.com slash skinny to get started for free. Basically what HIMS does is it's going to connect you with a licensed healthcare provider who can prescribe proven treatments all from home, which is amazing. The more you can do at home, the better. So it's never been simpler to treat ED and early climax from home. Skip the doctor's office and head to 4himss.com slash skinny to start your online visit for free. That's 4himss.com slash S-K-I-N-N-Y. And you should know, statistic based on a survey of 7,234 respondents in HIMSS and HERS

Nationally Representative Survey. Survey conducted in April 2022. Prescription products require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. Subscription required. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Narcissists view people as objects

And so they will only move towards you If they need something Or can benefit in that particular moment They'll say like Oh my gosh, like your dad was an alcoholic And left when you were five Oh my god, my dad left when I was five No, they didn't

And so they'll make it like They share these same vulnerabilities If you ever get in an argument with me I can say,, I'm not your dad. Don't think I'm like leaving you. Calm down. You're being crazy. That's what they do. If there's one thing that I know for sure, Michael, it's that everyone who is listening most likely has an experience with a narcissist in their life. The question is, is it a regular narcissist or an extreme narcissist? And do you know the difference?

We're about to tell you. And let me tell you, I have dealt with narcissists in my life. And this episode, I was taking notes. This episode gives you all the tools on how to handle narcissists, how to set boundaries with them. How to recognize them. How to deal with them if they're in your family. How set boundaries with them, how to recognize them, how to deal with them if they're in your family, how to deal with them if you're dating one, how to deal with them if they're your child. Literally, we covered it all. If there was a

workbook handbook on narcissists in audio format, this is it. And this is an interesting topic. We've discussed it before and we've had people like Robert Green on here touch on the subject and explain the general traits of a narcissist and how to deal with them. But having Dr. Jamie Zuckerman on the show is a game changer because this is all she does. This is what she studies. So who is Dr. Jamie Zuckerman? Dr. Jamie is a Pennsylvania-based licensed clinical psychologist in private practice. She specializes in the treatment of adults with mood disorders, anxiety, relationship stress, and psychological symptoms associated with

medical illness. She is a frequent speaker on various mental health topics, media contributor on online publications, and is a nationally known expert on narcissism. This episode covers every single thing you need to know. And my advice, this is a little manipulative and Machiavelli, if you have a narcissist that you're dating, turn this episode up. And run. And run. And you guys are going to find out why. On that note, let's welcome Dr. Jamie to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. What is the main trait by far of a narcissist? If someone's listening and maybe they're living with one boyfriend, girlfriend,

husband, wife, what is the main trait that you have seen across the board be the common denominator of a narcissist? I would say lack of empathy or faking empathy. And just the rules don't apply to them. They apply to everybody else but them. So is someone like Ted Bundy a narcissist because obviously he lacked empathy for his victims? So Ted Bundy is more of what we would call antisocial personality disorder, which is sociopath. So they overlap. But with Ted Bundy and sociopath behavior, they cause harm to others out of enjoyment. Whereas with a narcissist, they'll cause harm to others, not necessarily because they want to watch and get enjoyment from it, but it's because they're in the way of whatever the narcissist needs at that moment.

It's because they're so focused on themselves and they don't even realize what... They know. They realize. They don't care. I want to go back to someone's childhood. Does someone become a narcissist out of the womb or is it something that that can happen as you go on? Is it something that can happen when you're an brain studies have shown that brains of a narcissist actually look different functionally and organically from somebody who's not a narcissist. But most people, most therapists, most psychologists will tell you that it really is something that's learned from patterns of behavior growing up in your childhood. And that doesn't mean that your parents or parents have to be narcissists. It just means that the patterns were very toxic and very unhealthy. And as children, we really develop strategies to help

us get through life because kids are smart like that. And we come up with ways to survive. So what would those patterns be? Are there like things you can pinpoint that happen in childhood? Anything from being a golden child of the family, you can do no wrong. The rules just totally don't apply to you and there's no consequences. The example I always give, even this is more sociopathic. So I don't know if Lacey Peterson. Okay. So he murdered her and his baby, unborn baby, right?

And when they interviewed his mother, it was so disturbing and chilling to me. She just talked about how amazing he was and how wonderful he was and that this wasn't true. And I'm thinking there wasn't even an apology or I can't imagine what the other family is going through. So it was this golden child image that it doesn't matter what you do, nothing's ever wrong. So you have no consequences. So as you grow up into adulthood and you do something and there's consequences, well, they don't apply to you. So the parent could be reinforcing this behavior. It's interesting that you say Scott Peterson because I've read a lot of books on that case.

And that gives me chills. He is the definition of a narcissist. I never would have thought that until you said it. That is the... If anyone wants to see what that looks like... I not treat scott peters but think about it when he why did he kill her not to watch her suffer but she was in the way of living his life the way he wanted to so he removed her and she was pregnant she was pregnant with him with his child let me let me ask you are there like levels to this? If there's a level one narcissist and a

level four being like, that's so extreme. Maybe you can have a little bit of narcissism, but you're still functional or is it? Yes. So with narcissists and growing up, so the golden child, one example. Another could be just a toxic environment where somebody is an alcoholic or there's a lot of abuse and they're just so overbearing of the children and never let them make decisions. Nothing they do is good enough. There's so many variations of this. But as far as narcissists go, narcissistic personality disorder is the diagnosis. And that is all of the criteria of the DSM, which is just a psychiatric kind of manual that we use. But if you look at narcissism on a continuum, you'll find that people have what's called narcissistic traits, right? And narcissistic features. So somebody who has narcissistic features, let's say, could be somebody that

is very outgoing, very outspoken, very confident, very motivated. A lot of CEOs, people that own businesses or athletes. Oh, shit. Well, it's been great having you on the show. See you later. No, I don't like saying healthy narcissism because narcissism is not, I don't think that's a fair way to say it, but traits like that can be very motivating, help you become successful, things like that. But you also have awareness of it. You know that you're not going to operate like you do as a CEO at home with family and it. You know that you're not going to operate like you do as a CEO at home with family and friends. You know when to rein it in and when not to. You

have awareness of that. You know the impact it has on the people you're around. It's funny you say that. We were talking, was it yesterday or the other day? We were talking and I said, probably both of us to some degree, you have to be somewhat kind of crazy to assume that you could take on something and build it out of nothing and then helmet up and i think in a way it drives you but i'm a to your point i am aware that it can also be an ugly trade if it's not managed correctly exactly so that makes you healthy i wouldn't go that far that makes you narcissistic joseph i was telling lord i was like shit are we are we gonna this episode? Is this like an expose on me? I was like, no, no, no.

If you're asking, honestly, this is how people are like, oh my God, am I narcissistic? And they search about it. If you're doing that, you're most likely not because a narcissist, true narcissist, not only are they not going to care, but they're above a label of a narcissist. What happens when a narcissist becomes a parent? Like you said that the parent doesn't need to be a narcissist to have a narcissist. Before you answer that, can you finish going through the levels just so I can understand? Like, okay, if say someone that fixed the characteristics of what you described before,

it's like a level one and it could be managed and it's healthy. What would be level two? Someone who's a little more severe, you mean? So somebody who, let's say, has awareness, but not the greatest level of awareness. It's really about awareness and empathy. So the more awareness that somebody has that they're doing that with no care in the world to fix it, change it, even when they know it's hurting other people, that kind of takes you further down the spectrum full-blown narcissistic personality disorder there really is there is zero empathy none they will never change are they not aware of it

they're aware they're aware that they're harming were to ask somebody like a kanye west you know are you a narcissist narcissists are they don't fit into any label in their mind right because labels are for everybody else so it wouldn't even it wouldn't even matter that's narcissistic that labels are for everybody else. Yeah. For narcissists, right? Like if you tell them that, you know, because like they're better than a narcissist, right? Like they don't fit into category.

They're above categories. Hence the rules don't apply. Correct. Right. So what happens when the narcissist becomes a parent to the child? So mom narcissist and dad narcissist play out very differently in a family. Do you care which one we start with no we don't care okay okay let's start with dads we'll start with dads dad narcissist tends to be very uninvolved they tend to be at the same time very controlling of what goes on in the family they tend to control the finances they control who goes where when all

of that stuff even everything down to how the kids dress, what schools they go to. And not in, I always went to private school. I want our kids to go to private school. Not like that. No, perfect. Because I have no control. I have absolutely no control. So now I'm in the clear. And they look at their children as in the way, in the way of them living their lives, in the way of getting them to do what they want to do, to make money, to whatever it is. And they're very hands-off and they're very disconnected. Nothing they ever do, the kids, nothing they ever do is good enough, will never measure up. Mom narcissists look at their children, particularly daughters, as extensions of themselves, like a handbag. They don't exist

separate from the mom. Any effort they make to be autonomous so going off to college having a boyfriend's girlfriend moving across the country whatever is viewed as inconsiderate abandonment kind of how dare you i raised you you don't you don't do this to me holy shit jeanette mccurdy from nickelodeon just wrote a book about her mother that says i i'm glad my mother died. Yes. And I read that book. And that is exactly. The book is titled, I'm glad my mom died. That is exactly how she describes her mother. She gets her first boyfriend when she's like 21.

And she goes to Hawaii. And she's on this vacation secretly behind her mom's back, not telling her mom that she's there because she's scared of her mother's reaction. And the paparazzi pick up pictures of her with her boyfriend and her mother writes her this email that is i almost had to stop reading the book because it's so uncomfortable the way she talks to her daughter like basically you're a disgusting pig yes for you to think that you can just get a boyfriend without me being involved. And it's classic what you're saying. But Jeanette doesn't seem narcissistic at all in the book. So it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't necessarily breed a narcissist. No, sometimes it breeds very high

level people pleasers. So they are so worried because their love their whole lives was contingent on whether or not they did something their mom agreed with or didn't agree with. Right. And so mom narcissists will withhold attention and affection at literally no reason whatsoever. There's no rhyme or reason. And that's what keeps people so hooked because it's like an addiction. Sometimes you get that spurred adobo means sometimes you don't. And so it keeps people, especially in relationship, just sucked in. And so all they do is try to people please in the hopes that no one will get mad at them or that they'll love them and everything's walking on eggshells. But that book, yes, 100%. That's

what that is. You've got to read that book. If you have not read that book, the mother is like the most, everything you're describing is exactly how the mother was. You owe them. You owe them their life. So this is what I'm trying to figure out. Say you come from a family where narcissism is not exhibited at all. What external events, say you don't have a parent, what creates the first generation narcissist? It could be anything from generational trauma. It could be trauma growing up from, you know, some other outside experience, let's say. It could be partially genetic, too. There is that component to it. But whatever it is, is also fostered within the family. So let's say you were sexually assaulted when you were younger and the event was so traumatizing and your family

itself was something that happened outside familyizing and your family itself was something that happened outside family, but your family itself is very sweet and very nice, but no one talks about anything. So you are not directly, but indirectly shamed, feel guilty, feel horrible. And so you put up this facade, let's say I'm just hypothetical that everything is perfect and anything that damages that perfect facade instantly targets your shame, and you can't have that. So that's an example of how somebody may develop as a child strategies to never let that happen and develop a narcissism as a result of that.

I have someone that I know that is a narcissist, but her sibling is not a narcissist at all. In fact, the sibling is the opposite of a narcissist. What happened there? If it's the same two set of parents and the same kind of trauma. I always find that so fascinating. You could have two people raised in the same household, same experiences. They perceive those experiences so differently because for a couple of reasons. One, just their genetic makeup's different their brain chemistry is different to their parents you know when you're a parent of more than one child right you love them both equally but your interactions with them are different right also like one's way older than the other it's different yep yeah and what you'll find is the older children let's say who left the house before abuse started, the second child will always feel like the older child had no awareness of the type of abuse that they actually experienced.

And so it's a very different scenario. You easily could have one child be a narcissist and the other one not because I have a lot of patients who will come to me because of their relationship with their siblings. Because one is a narcissist. Do you know Robert Greene? Are you familiar with his writing? He wrote like 48 Laws of Power. So he came on here and was talking, like one of the topics he talks about in one of his books, The Laws of Human Nature is Narcissist.

And Lauren, tell me if I'm wrong. He was saying that it's one of the hardest disorders to deal with because it's almost incurable or not curable. You can't reason with the person at all to treat it. Is that correct? It's correct. And I get yelled at all the time for this, but as a psychologist, for me to say that something is not treatable

psychologically takes a lot for me to be able to say that. It is the only diagnosis. So what do you do? Nothing. They don't come in for treatment. It's their significant others. So basically you help the other people. They don't come in for treatment. It's their significant others. And so you have to treat. So basically you help the other people.

You can't treat it. If you try to solve it by logic, you just kind of make it worse. You actually have to look at it so illogically to make sense. Someone else came on the show Finding Mastery. And I said, I asked the same question and he said it's untreatable too. So it's like confirming what you're saying. Yes. And he said, all you can do is put him on stage.

That's what he told me. I'm like, I know someone in my life. What do I do? He just said, put him on stage. You have to put such boundaries up and consistent boundaries. Consistent. I say, if you can't set a certain boundary, don't set it at all. So give us examples.

Like say someone is friends. Let's do friends because that's more broad with a narcissist. And they're going to continue to be friends because say they've been friends forever. How do you deal with it? Step by step. Yeah. So I think first is when you have the understanding that they're a narcissist, you really need to put everything aside and ask yourself, do you remain friends with this person because you're nervous to not be? Are you remaining friends with this person because they actually give you something supportive and in some way enhance your life? I'm going to say they probably don't enhance your life in any way possible. And they are probably that friend that absolutely drains

you when you're with them. That's just a common, that's typically what you've seen. Yeah. Yeah. Friends that are narcissists tend to be extremely competitive. They don't have your best interests at heart. We always say, be careful of the people that don't clap for you when you succeed. It's those people that we're talking about. And set serious boundaries with them. Only respond to them in texts and emails with facts. Any emotion words you never put in, keep your conversations with them based on facts and times and plans, but anything that goes outside of that, you don't respond. So don't ask them about their opinions on your boyfriend or your girlfriend or if you look good in this outfit or

none of that. Is it because they can acknowledge facts, but they can't acknowledge feelings? They can acknowledge facts. I say the feelings aspect because that's what narcissists love. They love to latch on to any topic that they can manipulate and throw back to make you feel less than. Facts you can't do that with. But any type of emotions like, do you like my hair like this? Should I get it cut short? That kind of stuff in a friendship, that's exactly what happens. I also notice too, if you give them any kind of reaction back, anything, an emotional thing, they gaslight you and turn it around on you, even though they're the ones that are in the wrong. So what I have found that works for me with a specific person is not to respond until the next day, not to respond. And like you said, it has to be so logical and almost flatline.

Yep. If you give a little bump, they just prey on it. Yeah. And then they'll turn the fight around that they started onto you and pretend like you're the one that started it when you don't even want the text message anyway. That's right. And then what happens when they do that, before you know it, you're defending yourself about something that you don't even know how it got to that when the whole topic and the point of the initial conversation is gone. And that's exactly what they want. So could a narcissist, like say you're an extreme narcissist, be listening to this, but they can't even acknowledge that this potentially could be them. Is that's exactly what they want. So could a narcissist, like say you're an extreme narcissist,

be listening to this, but they can't even acknowledge that this potentially could be them. Is that correct? They may notice that the behaviors are similar, but they'll still look at it as, I mean, I wouldn't do it like that. Like that's not me. They wouldn't be able to like, oh, this is me. I really got to solve this. They would be like, no, there's a reason why there's an out. Correct. One thing that is a non-negotiable in my morning routine is my lemon ginger chlorophyll water. I'm sure you've heard me talk about this multiple times. Chlorophyll is filled with benefits. The thing that I notice the most is it gives me energy and it's really, really good if ever I'm in altitude. It immediately makes me feel better. It's good for your blood,

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You have absolutely nothing to lose. You know what's weird? I have empathy for narcissists because it makes me feel like they've been through so much trauma that they're trying to... Like, I feel bad for them. I mean, really, like, you've been through so much trauma that you have to literally create, like, a persona or, like, a shield. I think the difficulty, though, is they don't realize they need help and you can't help. And so then basically what you're doing, and I'm going to use a weird analogy,

but you're like, you're staying on a sinking ship to both of your detriment as opposed to just saying like, okay, like you're, you are not help. We can't help you. I got to go help myself. Yes. Instead of just saying, okay, like we can't help you and I'm going to just go down with you anyways. Yep. And a lot of people do. And this is exactly, I love that. I may take that. This is exactly why I tell people don't go to couples therapy with a narcissist. Narcissists have such nuanced behaviors that you really have to know what they are. And so I'll have people that go into couples therapy and the therapist will say, you should go on date night, which is the total opposite of what you would tell somebody in a narcissistic relationship to do. And a lot of times they'll gaslight the patient in the session.

So they're totally invalidated. They feel even more crazy than they are because the gaslighting makes them feel like they're losing their mind. And that's the whole point of it. So I always tell people, get your own therapy. You get help and figure out how to get out of this. I actually know a narcissist who went to therapy with their significant other and actually ended up leaving four therapists. Like all of a sudden, the therapist became the problem. Is that normal? If the therapist realizes what the narcissist is and starts setting

boundaries in the therapy and starts kind of gently calling them out on these things, you'll get one of two things. Either they'll get up and walk right out or they'll say, that therapist is horrible. We're not going back. I'll find somebody else. And they'll find somebody until they find someone where they can perform their act for them and are relieved. What's a therapist, I'm just putting myself in a therapist, what are they supposed to do when they realize they're dealing with someone like that if they know as a therapist that they can't help that person?

Is it just then about the other person? Or what if it's somebody that's one-on-one? You're just like, I can't help you. So if it's one-on-one with the person, the partner of the narcissist? Or no, I guess you're saying the narcissist wouldn't be there alone. Okay. So if it's on the couple and the therapist realized, they just are like, okay, sorry, I can't help you.

And then it becomes the focus on helping the partner. Yeah. Well, what they can do is slowly and gently bring up scenarios where clearly they're a narcissist. So they do things like set boundaries in the session to kind of bring up exactly what's happening, but not in a way where they're accusatory. And the reason why they do it is because without directly saying it,

they want the partner of the narcissist to feel validated and not crazy. And so that's what a skilled therapist would try to do, very kind of in a subtle way, align with the other person and saying like, I see you, I get you, you're not crazy. This isn't your fault. Okay. Let's say you have a daughter and let's say she's in a relationship with a man that she's been married to for 15 years since a narcissist knowing what you know would you tell her to leave yeah you would yes so it's it's fucking hopeless

so you're saying okay let's say i just got like sick when you said my daughter i like yes a hundred percent so yeah okay let's say you had to stay in the relationship for some reason or another maybe like you know you're relying on them financially, whatever it is. How what are the tools that someone can do to deal with this person? Like, can you give us tangible tools? So if whenever I start working with someone, I always ask them two questions and tell them, you don't have to answer this now, but this is what I want you to get a sense of. Are you trying to work to leave them or do you need me to help you figure out a way to stay in this as carefully as possible? Because the other problem is that a lot of times they're being verbally abused, physically abused, often sexually abused, and financially abused so that they can't

leave. Tangible things that they want to say in the relationship, we start with boundaries. And there's all different types of boundaries. I tell them to, if it's safe, set up a bank account that nobody else knows about, do it through a friend so that you have some money set aside for yourself. I tell them to maintain at least one person in their circle because what happens is a narcissist does a really good job of isolating you from family and friends so that nobody can know about your abuse. And if you do tell them, they make it like you're crazy to everybody so nobody believes you. So I always tell them to keep one person in their circle that they can always confide in and always talk to you so they never feel alone. And to tell that person to reach out to them if they kind of fall off the face of

the earth because you need to maintain that contact. Things like the texting and the emailing, if they're stalking you, if they're constantly texting you, if it's safe. Again, this is all with if it's safe. You want to set boundaries, exactly what you were saying. The facts, you give them no emotions. It is so neutral and so flat. Even if they try to get anything out of you, you just respond. Your tone of voice, your eye contact, your body posture, no emotions, just facts. And that's honestly really all you can do. I tell people to try to get out of their house as much as they can, try to not be around

them as much as possible, which is why the pandemic was an absolute nightmare for people. As a doctor doing what you do, and maybe this is going to sound out of touch or harsh, is there ever really a reason that you actually can't leave or are these just things we tell ourselves? Meaning, when I hear these stories and obviously I'm not in the situation, my brain immediately goes, there's absolutely no

reason in the world enough for me to stay. I would figure something again. All right, let me spin this. What if the narcissist is your child? Sure. That you have to live with no no no but we're talking but hold on we're using a different example you can't leave no but i'm talking about for the example of a couple like a relationship no relationship like as bad as it can be say you end up no money you know no job like all like i feel like these are things you can eventually build back up without having to go through a life of misery but yeah so is it. I could be wrong. You get what I'm asking?

Yeah. So when you're in a toxic relationship that's not narcissistic, right? So if you're in an abusive relationship that's not narcissistic, you can still use logic for yourself on how to get out of that. When you're in a narcissistic relationship, you have been so conditioned and so almost brainwashed by gaslighting and manipulation. Stockholm syndrome. Correct. Correct. And so you don't even realize until years down the road, sometimes 20, sometimes never, years down the road that you were even in an abusive relationship. You had no idea. So all this time, they're slowly isolating you.

And it's slowly. It's like a trickle. So you don't realize it until later on. The problem is once you start to realize this and you make sense of this, one, you probably have no assets or money to your name on purpose. You probably don't have a car in your name on purpose. You definitely don't have any friends or family that are close and that's on purpose. And the highest point of danger when somebody is leaving

the relationship with a narcissist, that's the scariest part. That's when there's higher risk that they're going to be harmed is when they leave. It's interesting because the people, I can think of three people that i know that are narcissists and some are good friends some are not but like extreme like we're talking about or just extreme of all three people i can think of and the mate that they have all has the common denominators of the same trait so what is the mate doing to attract the narcissist? I'm a big fan of accountability. So if I'm with a narcissist, what am I doing that's putting it out there that's pulling the narcissist in? Because the traits that I can think of these partners are submissive. People-pleasing. People-

pleasers. Quiet, and I'm going to pull it back to the beginning of the people-pleaser. Maybe they grew up with a narcissistic parent, so they're attracted to the narcissist. They've been taught their needs come second. Yes. And every single person, it's all the same kind of person. What do their names rhyme with? So here's the problem with that. Every single one of us, if we don't know the signs are susceptible to a narcissist all of us even even the smartest it doesn't matter it doesn't matter who you are where you come from it doesn't matter how smart you are so the reason in the beginning is because they do what's called

love bombing which is this really quick really fast narcissist the narcissist narcissist does this. The narcissist in the beginning. So let's say, for example. All the narcissists did this to who I'm talking about. All of them. All of them. And they'll do it with the next one. And there's a cycle. There's three stages.

So love bombing is the first. So it's the people that they'll go on a date and they'll say, where have you been my whole life? You're my soulmate. I've been waiting for you. It's so crazy. We like have our own language. Have you ever felt like this before? This is so intense. And then they'll talk about how the sex is so intense. I've never had anything like this before. Gifts and vacations and all of this stuff. And you

meet the families and it's like too good to be true. So I tell people and I'm not joking when I say this, if you hear soulmate and I know I get people like, well, I met my soulmate and we're so married. Great. But you're like 1%. If you hear you're my soulmate i love you where have you been and in this it feels like a whirlwind you've been knocked off your feet run run the problem is that when you don't know about love bombing and you're getting that especially if you've been in bad relationships or whatever it feels so good who the hell wouldn't want to be in that what's the opposite of love bombing that's what i did to michael i was like get away from me you're annoying like a gnat for 10 fucking years yeah yeah it's true so yeah so i mean so you can see how it's tricky and so

what happens is once they're in that, then the mask falls off. Then what's called the devaluing stage occurs, which is where it starts to get a little like, I don't know if you, I don't know if I would have cut your hair like that. I really like it shorter or. So it's like you've brought them so far up and now you start cutting them down. Yep. Then they'll say like, you know, you're friends, you're college best friends. I don't, I don't, there's something about her. I don't, I can't put my finger on it. And you, you think they're so good and so charming

because they've been that way. And so it's very, very slow. And then the abuse starts. And the problem is because it's like an addiction, that person is constantly seeking. I just want that person back from the beginning. The problem is that person never existed in the first place. It was all an act to get you into the situation. So when you say, what traits do these people have in the beginning? That's not really it. It's what traits do these people have during where they don't feel they can get out? And I have a feeling, and I don't know the data on this, but my guess would be people,ers in particular are so conditioned to put their needs second that when this starts to happen, it feels familiar to them, just like you said. I mean, it's so crazy, too, how you can look across the board at the narcissist that you know and look at their mate and be like, oh, my God, they're all married or dating people pleasers. Mentioned something earlier michael said that if

he was you know married to a narcissist that he would leave but then i asked him what if your child is a narcissist what do you what do you do i didn't say i would leave i would just understand like i was trying to understand why someone couldn't realize they they could leave they don't even they don't even realize it's an option yeah What if you have a child that's a narcissist and you're a parent who's not? It's very, very upsetting. It's very upsetting because, listen, I mean, as parents, you know, our kids could do the most horrific thing in the world and we could be so beyond disappointed and traumatized, but we'd still love them.

Right. So it's very difficult for parents to see that type of behavior when there's no empathy and they don't care. I mean, they'll steal from you. They'll lie to you. They could care less. And so a lot of times parents have to almost treat it as if it's an addiction and you have to set so many strict boundaries, which I can't even fathom, but set so many strict boundaries that you really cut yourself off from them. And exactly like you had said before, very brief text messages, everything in writing, always everything in writing.

If it's not in writing, it never happens and they will contort it, twist it. So your relationship with them will never be what you had dreamt it would be. And there's a grieving process that takes place. You're never going to have the relationship with your child that you want. And oftentimes, parents feel so guilty. They feel like they did something wrong that they'll constantly give in to their narcissist that's a child because they feel like, you know, it makes them feel it takes away their own anxiety and their own guilt, but they don't realize that by not setting boundaries with their child, they're actually, you know, contributing to that. So it's very difficult. It's like a drug

addiction. If you're going to continue to enable the narcissism, then it's just going to get worse for you. What I notice of parents of narcissists is what you just said, is there's this layer of heavy guilt. And now that I'm a parent, I can't even imagine. It's such an unfortunate situation. Because what do you do? Not much, except mourn the loss of the relationship. Kind of like what I tell my patients whose parents are narcissistic. You're going to have to mourn the loss of this relationship with your mother that you hoped you would have. When you really realize that you're never going to have that, it's grief. It's loss, except the person's still alive. If you're a narcissist, do you also have other personality disorders or is it only, you can only be a narcissist and not like, could you be a bipolar and narcissist or can you only be a narcissist?

So bipolar is what we call an axis one diagnosis, which means it's within their awareness. They know they have bipolar disorder. It causes them distress. You know, they will go and get medication for it. They're aware of it. They know what it does. When they're in a manic stage, sometimes it can look like a personality disorder because you're not logical.

You're not thinking straight. The rules don't apply. You're grandiose in your ideas. You know, thinking is, you know, very large thoughts and, you know, spending a ton of money. And so that aside, bipolar disorder, they know they have it. They're aware of it. They know it's something they need to work on whether they do or not, that's up to them. Whereas narcissistic personality

disorder is pervasive in every area of somebody's life. It's how they view themselves in relation to others, how they view other people in relation to them. Whereas bipolar disorder, it's there, it's a brain disease, but it's like situational almost. This episode is brought to you by Gravity. Gravity is giving me a better sleep on so many levels. First of all, if you've not tried a weighted blanket, let me tell you about it. If you're one of those people that says they're going to be in bed at nine o'clock and then you end up not getting to bed till 12 and sometimes you're laying and you're tossing and turning and it's one o'clock, you need a weighted blanket.

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must say something because I think I buy literally everything they have. Here's the thing. Recently, I got sick. I went on a bachelor party and then I had to fly to New York. As Lauren and I just shared, we just went out there for a night. And I came back almost sick as a dog. And what I realized is I ran out of my Symbiotica supplements and did not place an order in time. I didn't have my vitamin C. I didn't have my glutathione. I didn't have my D. I didn't have my B12. And I haven't been sick since I've been on Symbiotica. And as soon as I got off, boom, I got sick. You could probably still hear it in my voice. So I placed a huge order. Thank God. And here's what I got. I got the vitamin C, which is extremely important. We all need to be supplementing vitamin C. I got the vitamin3 in coq10 i think that's one of the best and most

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amazing at your Lexus dealer. You said a narcissist views what everyone else is doing, and they're so busy worried about what everyone else is doing and comparing it to what they're doing. It's almost like a tall poppy syndrome. They want all the poppies to be aligned. They want to be the tallest. So let's just make this up. Someone wins an Academy Award. What does the narcissist think about that?

Are they comparing themselves? If they did not win it? Yes. They'll justify it and rationalize it in their mind why they didn't win it. But why are they even comparing themselves to the Academy Award winner if they're not win it yes they'll justify it and rationalize it in their mind why they didn't win it but why are they even comparing themselves to the academy award winner if they're not an actor meaning it's almost like they disregard and it's not like they don't they won't let it in their ether like that's not a value doesn't penetrate they'll justify why that's not valuable to them or why they don't need it it's irrelevant yeah it's irrelevant they don't sit there and get jealous because they're they're above whatever that thing is is that it's not that

they would get jealous let's say they weren't an actor and they're watching this going. It's not that they would get jealous. They would just justify it as, you know, anything from like, well, I mean, it's just an actor.

Or if I was an actor. She's lucky or she's lucky like her dad this or she got that because she laid on her back. Or it's rigged or right, exactly.

What did they do to get there? And if I was an actor, of course, I'd wait. You know, that kind of stuff. So it's rigged or right exactly well what do they do to get there and if i was an actor of course i'd wait you know that kind of stuff so it's it's almost like irrelevant right because it has no impact on their life it doesn't exist narcissists view people as objects and so they will only move towards you if they need something or can benefit in that particular moment what turns them off like say say there's someone out there that wants to, they've been in a relationship with a narcissist. What energy can they put out there that's going to turn them off like that?

If, for example, in the beginning of the relationship, and the narcissist texting you constantly, calling you, sending flowers, things like that, if you call them out on that behavior and say, wait, we got to slow this down. This is like, this is too much. They may view that as rejection and you'll either get like, you know, fuck you, you know, this and angry or they'll just fall off the face of the earth. What I, when someone love bombs me, cause that's happened to me with friendships,

like people will love bomb me. Like it's like, it's like too too much i won't text back for a week and i'll keep doing that that's healthy that's a healthy boundary like this is like this is it's too much then you're setting a precedent and you're show you're see boundaries are for you not for the other person so by doing that you're showing this person this is how i want to be treated right and there is such a thing i think definitely as like it's like too many compliments too many like presents too much it's like it's like enough is enough because then the the motive's different the function's different like they want something in return right they'll never do anything just because it's nice they'll do it because they want

yeah they want something from you and you owe them. The other thing they do, which in the beginning of the love bombing phase is they'll say like, oh my gosh, like your dad was an alcoholic and left when you were five. Oh my God, my dad left when I was five.

No, they didn't. No, they didn't. And so they'll make it like they share these same vulnerabilities and you'll get into these really deep conversations. You're like tripping me out right now. And then what happens is they store it away for later use. So if you ever get in an argument with me, I can say, so I just went out to dinner.

I'm not your dad. Don't think I'm like leaving you. I just went to dinner. Calm down. You're being crazy. That's what they do. What happens, and maybe this never happens, when a narcissist falls in love with another narcissist?

Or does that never happen because that's not the prey that they prey on? So you would think they don't prey on that. But in fact, narcissists don't just go for people who are passive people pleasers. They actually really like people that are very well-known in their field, very smart, successful, wealthy, because they like that spotlight and they want it. But again, because it does something or they think it does something for them. For them. And they want to take that and they want to use it to their benefit. They don't care what it does to you or your career. And they'll sabotage it. They love seeing people who are high up or who are successful.

That's why they like to go for people that are married. They like to see people fall apart. They like to be responsible for their demise from a very high up. This is very Machiavelli. This is diabolical. this is diabolical so why it is diabolical if they don't ignore if they look at people as objects why do they want to see people fall if they were just looking at them as objects it gets them off because it because they're responsible for they're so powerful that they were able to tear somebody down it makes them stronger you know what helps

me deal with them stoicism i better go for my rolodex and see who i got it's helped me so if you're dealing with a narcissist you guys it's helped me so you give them nothing because i just am stoic with i won't respond if it if it's something i can't control I'll just let it go if they come at me I just I won't they it's like taking the energy out of like the balloon and that has worked so well for me if someone is listening and they've decided that they want to break free of a narcissist what are the steps to do that? So it depends on the relationship, if it's a parent, right? If it's a coworker, if it's a boss, if it's a relationship, but we'll say in intimate relationships, if you realize what you're dealing with and you're listening

to this and you're saying, oh my God, this is my life. What do I do? First thing is start in a safe way. I tell people to do it in their notes section on their phone, but start to write down some of the behaviors that you're now looking at and saying, oh my God, I didn't realize that's what that was. Because the thing that gives people the most empowerment is when they start to realize the blueprint of a narcissist's behavior. Because I don't care who it is. They are identical. It's almost like, I mean, not really, but it's almost like someone took a microchip and plans it and they're all exactly the same.

Like all these traits we've been talking about. It's all the same. There's a million listeners could have, you know, a thousand of the same kind of person in their mind right now. It's all the same. And so when you figure out the blueprint, then you can start to predict the behavior. Then you can start to learn how to not respond. Like you were saying, you can predict it so you're not thrown off balance because they

love that. And by writing it out, it's easier to start to see the patterns of this blueprint. And I tell people to start there first because also it's validating to see this stuff written down like, oh, I'm not crazy. But if you write it out, make sure it's hidden from us because it in your phone yeah if they find it they will completely gaslight every experience that you have and say that you're crazy and this never happened and you don't you think if you're at the point of writing this down that that's probably a good indication i write down everything you do jesus christ. That must be riveting. I have a collection.

Yeah, I'm sure. It's all up in my brain. Are you available for a session after this? Sure. I need some help. Wink at me if you get what I'm going through here. How can someone use the book that you have, Find Your Calm? Tell us how they can use this.

Sure. So this book is great. It's an interactive journal, but it's not like your typical, like I'm very, I don't know, self-help books sometimes I think are just kind of, I don't know, mental messiness, for lack of a better word. This actually helps you learn how to be present focused, which is really important for gaslighting because you could write down all this stuff and then somebody gaslights you. You never want to tell the narcissist that you figured them out ever because they will gaslight you all day long telling you you're crazy, your therapist is crazy, your best friend's crazy. That's not true. They're putting these thoughts in your head. So what this book does is it helps

you, one, learn how to center yourself so that you can come back to the present moment. It teaches you how to, you know, some people are really bad at identifying emotions. They do much better identifying their physical sensations when they're anxious. Some people get, you know, butterflies in their stomach. I get migraines. So like you figure out what your physical self is telling you. Then it gives you a way to look at your thoughts differently. So instead of trying to not think about it, get rid of it. Give me a positive for the negative and play ping pong, ping pong back and forth in your head. What this does, it teaches you to look at your thought is just the thought.

And what I like about this is if you were to pick a color for narcissism, this is the opposite of it's common. It's very calm color. You guys, it's like a sea foam. And even when you open it up, you I know this sounds so weird. The the the vibration of it is like opposite of anything diabolical. It is. It's very calm. It's super calming and just very beautiful book. Thank you. It's learn to separate yourself from your anxious thoughts, break unhelpful thought patterns, practice how to confront and manage your fears.

And it's called find your calm. It's a workbook to manage anxiety. Jamie, you are amazing. If anybody gives me more than two compliments, I'm going to cut them out of my life. Nobody ever talking about your haircut for five days straight after you get it. Listen,

we've already discussed that. I really want, like, just asking for a friend. Yeah. Where can everyone find you, your book? Pimp yourself out. If you're not on TikTok, like, you got to get on because I feel like your stuff will go viral. If you are on TikTok, you got to tell us where to find you.

I'm on TikTok, but I just started doing TikTok. So I have to, yeah, get on that. Stuff on TikTok about narciss goes huge and wild i have one one more like last question before we go for a little time do people get narcissistic personality disorders mixed up with other disorders and misdiagnose it yes all because that would be a tragedy if people are listening and they're like oh that's a narcissist there's no help maybe they have something else oftentimes or did I just gaslight everybody? No, no, no, no. It's a really good question. Oftentimes people who have bipolar disorder will get diagnosed. Sorry. Oftentimes people who have

narcissistic personality disorder will get diagnosed as bipolar disorder when it's not. You're trying to treat for bipolar and there's no hope because it's actually this. Correct. Correct. I mean, I'm sure mood stabilizing meds can help the rage in that, but it's not something that's treatable by medication. It's just your sense of self is... What's the main distinction between the two so you could differentiate? So bipolar disorder are distinct periods of time where you'd have a major depressive episode for two weeks or more.

Then there's a period of time that's just nothingness. There's no anything going on. And then you could have a manic episode three years later. People think that mood instability or affect dysregulation, so somebody's inability to monitor their affect, right? There's always flying off the handle, walking on eggshells, is bipolar. Mood swings are not bipolar disorder. And what about borderline? So borderline is a little bit different. It can look similar to narcissism in certain ways if you don't know what to look for. Borderline personality disorder, they want close relationships. They are petrified of being abandoned. They are petrified of being thrown away. So there are very distinct

treatments for borderline personality disorder. It is hard work. It's lifetime work, but it is treatable. But a narcissist doesn't have those feelings. Correct. And if you guys are interested in borderline personality disorder, we interviewed Mary Lynn. Remember? She came on and shared her experience. Go listen to that episode. Find your calm. Where can we find you? I'm on Instagram at dr.z underscore psychologist. Dr. Z underscore psychologist. My book is on Amazon. It's on Target, Barnes and Noble, my website, drjamiezuckerman.com. And where else can I be found? We'll find you. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for coming on. I just learned so much from this

episode. I'm going to send this episode to a bunch of people. I know that's it. Thank you for coming on. I just learned so much from this episode. I'm going to send this episode to a bunch of people. I know that are dealing with narcissists. I'm going to create a spreadsheet of everyone I know and start ranking. Yeah, let's just go tell everyone they're narcissists. Thank you so much for coming on. I cannot wait to fill out my workbook. Oh, thank you for having me.

I hope that you get on TikTok and get on. I will. I'm telling you, everyone will freak out. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Wait, don't go. Do you want to win a jar of the Skinny Confidential Times Dough? All you have to do is tell us who you want to see next here next on the Skinny Confidential Him and Her podcast. We love your feedback. It's our favorite thing ever.

Let me know and we will drop into two of your inboxes and send you guys the pink cookie dough of your dreams. It's so delicious. It tastes like pink frosting. It's nostalgic, all the things. You can also use code skinny dough, S-K-I-N-N-Y-D-E-U-X on their site and you get 10% off. With that, check out Dr. Jamie's book, Find Your Calm on Amazon, and definitely listen to her podcast if you want to know more about narcissists. Recently, we worked with Hims and Hers in New York City, and it was about all things sex. And we just did a whole bonus episode on nine myths surrounding sex based on a 2022 sex survey, which was fun. If you haven't heard that, go listen to it. Do you think that improving your sex life could improve your overall quality of life? If you guys answered yes, you're not alone. So you may have

heard us talk about this in a recent episode. And according to a new study from HIMSS, 63% people feel the same way. Sex is great. It makes you glow. It makes you healthier, happier. I mean, I love sex. Who doesn't? I think we should embrace that energy. So on that note, when there's something that is impacting your sex life, maybe erectile dysfunction, whatever it is, it can be hard to know who to turn to for help. And HIMS provides simple access to trusted treatments. So if you want to learn more, you can go to 4hims.com slash skinny to get started for free. Basically what HIMS does is it's going to connect you with a licensed healthcare provider who can prescribe proven treatments all from home,

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