The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Dr. Kimberly Nix Berens On Behavioral Habits, How We Learn, & How To Utilize Discipline

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

#438: Kimberly Nix Berens, Ph.D., is a scientist-educator and Founder of Fit Learning.  She co-created a powerful system of instruction based in behavioral science and the Technology of Teaching, which has transformed the learning abilities of thousands of children worldwide. Today we discuss behavioral habits, how we learn, and how to utilize discipline.  To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Cymbiotika Cymbiotika is a health supplement company, designing sophisticated organic formulations that are scientifically proven to increase vitality and longevity by filling nutritional gaps that result from our modern day diet. Use code SKINNY at checkout for 15% off your first purchase at www.cymbiotika.com (this is in addition to custom bundle discounts, so people can get 45% off) This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront No One is great at something the first time they try it. And if you’re unfamiliar with investing, getting started can be intimidating. Wealthfront does the work for you, so you can invest like an expert from the beginning. Wealthfront creates automated investment portfolios of diversified, low-cost index funds personalized for you. To open your account all you need is 3 minutes and $500 to invest. Right now you can visit www.wealthfront.com/skinny to get your first $5,000 managed for free.  This episode is brought to you by BEV Bev is a female-first canned wine brand that was founded to change not only the way a product is consumed, but the way an industry and culture have operated for generations. Their wines are dry, crisp, and a lil' fizzy, super refreshing and delicious. They have ZERO sugar and only 3 carbs and 100 calories per serving. We've worked out an exclusive deal. Receive 20% off your first purchase plush free shipping on all orders. Go to www.drinkbev.com/skinny or use code SKINNY at checkout to claim this deal.  Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Everyone loves a messy bitch. And Allie's life was about to get a whole lot messier. Maybe 2022 is going to be my year. Yeah, 2022 is definitely not going to be her year. Allie's going to bone, marry, and bury three different people. Get it? Bone, marry, bury? Like, f***, marry, kill? I just wanted to say that, but it didn't clear legal. Ready to play?

Introducing Bone Mary Berry. Starring Sarah Hyland, Harvey Guillen, and Tommy Martinez. Make sure to follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this. Bone Mary Berry is brought to you by Saqqara, Modern Fertility, Luland, and Roderm. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie.

And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Aha! major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. Pushing kids ahead based on age. So like kids go into second grade because they turn seven. They go into third grade because they turn eight. And that's wrong because we know that age is actually not a critical predictor of academic achievement. We don't just naturally start performing academic skills because we turned a year older. Academic skills are a function of

instruction and reinforced practice. And you can't perform third grade level skills if you haven't mastered first and second grade level skills. Yet this is happening all the time in schools where kids are not mastering skills in first and second grade and they're being pushed ahead anyway. And then what happens? You have kids being tested for special ed, being labeled with dyslexia, being put on medication when there's nothing wrong with them. All right.

You want to listen to this episode, especially if you're a parent. I learned so much in this episode and I learned so many tools and tactics to apply to my relationship with Zaza. It's crazy. Dr. Kimberly Nix, she's a PhD, is on the podcast and she is a scientist educator. She's also the founder of Fit Learning and she wrote the book Blind Spots, Why Students Fail and the Science That Can Save Them. I found this episode so interesting because I think for me going into parenthood, I didn't know a lot about kids, if I'm being honest. And so to learn more about them from a scientist who's a doctor was crazy. Like I said, there's some tools that I picked up about how much TV

that I should let Zaza watch, what the ramifications around that TV should be, like structure, boundaries, all the different things that they didn't teach you in school. Or maybe they did in sex ed, but I wasn't listening. But anyway, she really dives into it and she is a wealth of knowledge. I think a lot of you guys, especially if you're parents, are going to be taking notes in this episode. In this episode, we found out a lot about parents. So parents of struggling students who feel overwhelmed and confused about how to help their children survive school. We talk about failure, education at different schools, learning, behavioral therapy,

cognitive science, ADHD, ADD, Adderall. We also talk about the history of our broken education system and Dr. Kimberly breaks it down for us. All right, let's get into this episode with Kimberly. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. This is the skinny confidential him and her. Who has more ADD, me or Michael? Just based off our 10 minute conversation, if you had to choose. I would say I haven't observed that in either of you. Oh, really? Yeah. Look at that. I mean, I haven't had a long time to hang out with you yet, but I don't really see it. You can tell us at the end of the interview I'm glad you said that I was diagnosed not professionally but by one of my teachers when I was a kid and they tried to prescribe me I think at the time was Ritalin right it was I was younger and my dad at the time actually was like no I've seen this

guy like sit down and play games and screw off and be focused doing things. Exactly. He's like, I don't want to do that. I don't know. I'm fortunate that he did that because I know a lot of people in my class that ended up getting prescribed. Some of them rightfully so, some of them wrongfully so. But what is it that you look for in a diagnosis to actually make that decision and say, hey, someone would benefit from this type of medication? Well, just to be clear, I'm not the kind of psychologist that does the diagnosing part. So I'm a behavioral scientist, behavioral psychologist. So I do the intervention part when people have already been diagnosed. But I mean, I've worked with kids

for 25 years and I've done a lot of parent coaching. And so there's behavioral things that I can recognize in kids and adolescents that are indicative that they'd be the type of learner that would benefit from a medication. But to be quite honest, in my career, that's a very small percentage of kids. More often than not, when you're dealing with what you were going through as a kid in a classroom... I was just screwing off in school, honestly. And oftentimes, it's because kids haven't mastered the skills they need to be truly engaged and connected in a classroom. Because there's a lot of reasons why that happens.

The way schools are designed doesn't work that great as our educational statistics let us know. So there's a lot of things that can be improved instructionally that transform kids' attention. And it doesn't necessarily always have to be that it's a neurological problem that the child has, which is why they're struggling to learn in a classroom.

That's actually the rare case. More often than not, it's kids just need the opportunity to actually master basic skills. And then they do way better. That makes total sense what you're saying. I've known Michael since he was 12 years old. And I can tell you in class, he was always fucking off.

He was flicking the teacher off. I remember he moved. I got kicked out of first grade. No, you moved the principal. But he was just like the bad boy. And it was kind of like, what's that character from Leave it to Beaver? Oh, God. I never watched that show.

Leave it to Beaver? That's an old school reference. The one that's always getting in trouble. But it's funny that you say that because people did tell him that he had ADD and now he was not good in school and he got probably C's. Sorry, but you did.

And now he's an entrepreneur that's so multifaceted with all these different things. It's almost like he was maybe bored. Exactly. So I will say that was my experience as a learner in school. Like I, I'm a fast, I always have done things really fast, high energy. And I found school to be a very boring experience. And so that was my experience. So I have also seen that in my career with kids who are extremely high aptitude learners, and they don't fit in that mold of sitting quietly

and listening and doing your worksheets. And then they want to be, you know, said that there's something wrong with them rather than, you know, they have an unbelievable amount of strengths that, you know, just aren't being realized in that setting. You know, there's a lot of very successful people who go on to do amazing things

and school is not their bag for so many reasons. And so I think it's our tendency as a culture to want to like pathologize everything. We have a tendency to want people to be the same, like kids to kind of follow some normal, average developmental path. And when they don't, we kind of want to classify them in some way rather than just accepting that actually, you know, kids are way more different than they are similar. And, you know, those kinds of differences aren't necessarily a bad thing. I love that you're saying this. I'm going to play this for my daughter when she gets a little bit older.

That saying normal is not always the way to go. By the way, Eddie Haskell was his name. Oh, Eddie Haskell. Just so you know, you were like Eddie Haskell. Well, you know, I think, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. And the problem was my mother, you wouldn't, again, you wouldn't know this looking at me. My mother's, my grandmother's full Japanese. My mother's half.

Okay. In that culture, I could say this. It was very like, academics are very important, right? So like her, both her sisters, straight A's, you know, in school, all that. So I had a lot of pressure on me. I was the eldest because I was not a straight A student and I was probably bored in school and not focused. At the same time, I graduated in three and a half years, not with the stellar grades, but just figuring out like, okay, here's the system. How do I get the hell out of here as

fast as possible? But I always felt like I never felt dumb and I never felt like I couldn't. I just was so disengaged from so many of the lessons that I really struggled. And I think that I'm not the only one that goes through school experiencing things like that. You are not the only one. I mean, more than 60% of American school children are below proficiency in all academic subjects. And that statistic increases to more than 80% for children of color and those living in poverty. So it's actually the exception, the kids who kind of sail through school and do really well, that's actually not the norm.

The norm is kids who don't do well and don't feel engaged in the classroom. And there's a lot of reasons why, because the way classrooms are designed aren't necessarily engaging. So there's so many things that can be done instructionally to transform engagement and mastery of skills that just aren't happening in schools. And that's really where we need to start because more and more kids are getting referred for testing and

classified with neurological conditions that actually aren't real. And what is real is that they just need better instruction. And that's unfortunately not what's happening. Yeah. And I don't want to paint a picture that I shouldn't take account. I am accountable in the actions I was in school. I had a lot of great passionate teachers over the years. But I was in the principal's office every... I had so many detentions that they had to convert them to Saturday schools because there

was not enough hours in detention. And I, you know, I just, I wasn't like Lawrence is always a bad, but I wasn't doing, you know, malicious or harmful things to other people, but I was definitely just like not paying attention, talking and screwing off class clown type stuff. And I remember- Trying to finger bang me under my overalls. Yeah. That is a true story. So don't even lie. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Chasing girls. But I just remember at one point, and I think a lot of kids go through this, you actually start to think like, hey, I'm not capable of learning and I'm not good at this. And it becomes overwhelming. And then you kind of like give up and get overwhelmed in a way. And that's unfortunate.

Maybe the education system's changed since I've been there because I'm an old man now. No, it hasn't really changed. I mean, that's what I see the most. So I run an organization called Fit Learning and we have locations all over the place. And the most common thing I see is kids who come in who have deficits in reading and mathematics that go back years, yet they've been pushed along anyway. And now what's happened is, you know, when you think about the human response to aversive conditions, right? There's really two responses, fight or flight, right? We either get mad or act out or we flee. That's what I see with kids psychologically when they have been kind of victims of bad instruction and they have not mastered skills, but they've been pushed ahead as if they have, they either implode on themselves and start, you know, withdraw,

engage in kind of depressive like behaviors, you know, even withdraw socially, get very depressed, or they act out in the classroom. They either start acting like a class clown because they can get attention and social approval that way, or they do other stuff that isn't so nice. You know, they can engage in some kind of not nice do other stuff that isn't so nice. They can engage in some kind of not nice acting out behaviors that aren't so funny. And none of those things are great because that just sets a kid up for a long time to be... The next year, a teacher's like, oh, watch out for this kid. You know what? And then they're kind of blackballed and it's almost like a life sentence when you're in that situation.

That's exactly what I experienced. I mean, I literally would graduate and the teacher would be like, oh, here he comes. And then like, I remember, I forget this. I would walk and this is, actually, I don't like this teacher. I won't say his name, but I would show up to a particular science class and the stool for where I would sit would be set outside the door of the classroom. I would literally sit out of the classroom and look inside because the guy was so sick of me. And again, I can take accountability for my actions, but like, that's how I would show

up to classes. Everybody would go in the class and I would have a stool sitting outside the class and have to watch the lesson from outside the door. Right. Right. And I'm like, that's, there's no, like how it is. You might as well have had a dunce cap on your head and be sat in the corner. Pretty much. What is a story that you can tell us that started out maybe really unfortunate? Oh, my gosh. And ended up, you know, maybe you came in and you helped this particular person. Oh, I have. There's so many.

It's hard to explain. So I apply behavioral science to instruction. So that's my area of expertise. And we've designed an instructional methodology based on that science for a really long time. And when you use science inside of most things, you're gonna be better at doing what you're doing, right? So the same thing applies to instruction. So, I mean, I can't even explain the countless stories,

but one very specific one that's very present to me now is a kid I've been working with for a couple of years now, bottom of the barrel kid. He was flagged for everything at risk, was four or five years behind in reading and math and was going into the barrel kid. He was flagged for everything at risk, was four or five years behind in reading and math and was going into the sixth grade. He had come to Fit Learning for some afterschool kind of supplementation work, but it just wasn't enough for me to move him five years to catch up. And so he did a full day placement with us, left school, just did Fit for a year.

And he left school below the 10th percentile across the board and is like a bottom of the barrel kid. And now he's high honor roll, straight A student. He's back in school, transitioning back in and he's crushing life. And it's not just the academic record that's transformed, but it's who he is as a person. Because when he started coming to me full time,

the poor kid was just a shell of a person. I mean, he had no confidence, was very quick to become emotional, just had no perseverance, no drive, no fighting him to fight through hard stuff. And that's just completely different. I mean, he's taking really hard classes. He's seventh grader and he's just crushing everything. And it's so, because he had a year of success at mastering skills, all the skills he missed, crushing everything. And it's so, because he's had a, he had a year of, of success at mastering skills, all the skills he missed, you know, he mastered. And so that's a life-changing thing for a kid and it's possible for all kids. Okay. Quick break to tell you a little story. So before I got pregnant,

I wanted to test my fertility hormones, but obviously, you know, me, I wanted to tell you a little story. So before I got pregnant, I wanted to test my fertility hormones, but obviously you know me, I wanted to do it at home and I wanted to do a simple finger prick. I didn't want to go give buckets of blood because that's what they make you do sometimes. I wanted to mail it in. And so I heard about this company called Modern Fertility. And basically it's just that, like you get this kid at home Fertility. And basically, it's just that. You get this kid at home, you test your fertility hormones, you do a little finger prick, you mail it in, it's a prepaid label, and you get your personalized results within 10 days. So this was incredible because at the time, I was detoxing and I was doing no alcohol and I wanted to know where

I was at so I could get fertility insights. So if you want to do this all from the comfort of your home and you just want to send it out and do it efficiently, I highly recommend Modern Fertility. I feel like this is so avant-garde and ahead of the times. No one, like I said, wants to go into the doctor and do all this blood. You just want to prick your finger. I hate needles more than life itself. And this is such a tool for helping you plan and track everything. I feel like you track your wellness, your finances, your career, your school.

Why is the fertility thing still like a wait and see? I mean, I think if I could be doing this like at 20 years old, I would be doing it at 20 years old. This is such a great tool for women. Right now, Modern Fertility is offering all skinny confidential him and her listeners $20 off the test when you go to modernfertility.com slash skinny. That means you guys, your test will cost $139 instead of hundreds or thousands that it can cost at a doctor's office. It's wild. So you get $20 off your fertility test

when you go to modernfertility.com slash skinny. Modernfertility.com slash skinny. Is it nature versus nurture? Like, which is it? Is it genetics? Is it a lot of things? What is ADHD, ADD? So that's a great question.

So everyone automatically makes the assumption that ADHD is a real neurological condition, right? That we're born with. But actually the evidence for that doesn't exist. The only evidence for ADHD are things we observe a kid doing. So I would say behaviors that they engage in, right? Like you might watch a kid and see that they move a lot or they're impulsive or they're prone to like anger. And so all of that's really what I would describe as behavioral, you know, observations that you can make on the part of a

kid. And there's a lot of reasons why kids behave that way. I mean, we know in behavioral science that consequences are what actually determine whether or not we continue to behave in particular ways or if we start behaving in ways more. So a lot of times when kids have acted out, particularly around an academic assignment that they can't necessarily perform, if that behavior is reinforced, like for instance, when you were a kid, you didn't want to be in the classroom, right? Sure. So the consequence for you acting out in class was to actually get out of the environment you didn't want to be in in the first place. Yep. So I would describe that as a reinforcing event for you.

So all of your acting out in class was actually reinforced with escape from class. Yeah, they literally sent me home sometimes. There you go. I mean, party time. So unfortunately, educators and people in the educational establishment don't understand behavioral science, and they don't understand that actually consequences of behavior determine, I mean, as parents, this is really, you know, put this in your back of your mind. Did you have a little two-year-old, you know, think about when she's whining and tantruming

what you do when she does those things? Because that's what's going to determine whether she does those things more. So, you know, a lot of the behaviors kids engage in that people want to explain as ADHD caused are actually a function of the fact that those behaviors have a long history of reinforcement in their lives. And, you know, we talk about bad habits, right? Like, so habits are behaviors that have been established,

well-established over time by being consistently followed by reinforcement. And so to change habits, you've got to, sorry, to change those habits, you have to change the consequences of those behaviors and then teach kids to do other stuff instead. That's more adaptive and effective. That's, you just set me up perfect.

I wanna play a game with you selfishly and for the audience. Yes. What if your kid is tantruming? I'm gonna give you a couple of them and I would love to know like a couple of consequences that you would give. So tantruming. Okay, great. So again, I think it also, it all depends on the context in which a tantrum happens, but let's say your child's tantruming because they want something, right? They want their drink that they can't reach. It's on the counter or they want a snack that they can't reach or that they can't have because

it's like, no, you can't have cookies right now. So that's a classic, right? So the problem is, this also is a real problem when you have a child transitioning from infancy into, you know, two years old. That's why they call it the terrible twos because crying has been their primary source of communication and it's been reinforced. I mean, crying is reflexive at birth, which is why infants do it immediately when they're born. But quickly, crying becomes learned because it's followed by warmth, attention from a parent, milk, right? And that's okay. I mean, that's how infancy goes.

But the problem is now you're transitioning into kids and now they're learning different things. Like they've learned some adaptive skills, like some verbal skills, right? They can say some stuff. They can do some stuff. And so the problem is crying is their knee jerk habit because it's what they've done their whole lives up to that point. But now they're expected to do something else instead. And that can be a rocky road. That's why the terrible twos is called that because, you know, they're, they're transitioning from crying for everything to like, I have to do other stuff. Like say please or whatever. Yes, like talk.

So the way you can make that transition for a child easier is by being really consistent in the sense that when the whining and crying happens, the best consequence for that is ignoring it. Because I'll be honest with you, any attention from a caregiver is powerfully reinforcing, even if it's negative attention. Like some parents think I'm scolding my child and lecturing my child and that's, I'm being a good parent because I'm punishing them. But you'd be surprised how reinforcing that can be for a kid because you have all your attention on them. And a lot of times it's emotional. So you've, they've gotten a rise out of you, which makes them feel very powerful. So, you know, to be honest with you, the most powerful consequences from parents are often no consequence at all, which is ignoring. And then when they've calmed down, prompting them, it's like, okay, say, say, I want a cookie, please. Or say juice, please.

And when they say juice, please, then it's like really good. Awesome. Here's your juice. That was so good asking. Let me ask you just a quick question. Interject here for the parents that feel like maybe they're thinking, well, if I ignore my kid, are they going to think that I don't, you know, like, what would you say to those parents? Are you that parent? I could be, but I also... By the way, I'm the best at ignoring. I ignored you for 10 years. I am so good at ignoring. Like ignoring is my specialty. So I'm so down for this. Keep going. But I think, you know, like, I think there's a lot of parents that I think they think like, well, if I ignore, am I going to, am I going to indicate to the child that I don't care? Right. And that's a really good point. And to be honest with you, there's a lot

of parent experts out there who sell this stuff and make parents feel that way. And to be honest with you, that is actually a very weird mindset because when you have a relationship with your child where you are noticing all of the awesome stuff they do throughout the day, right? Like paying attention to them, not on your phone, not distracted, but when you're really with them, you're present and you're noticing all the amazing things they do. And you're reinforcing those as much as you can. Like, I love how you shared that toy with your friend. I love how you picked that up and put it back in the toy bin. I love how you sat at the table for lunch when I told you to, you know, reinforce, reinforce, reinforce. When you're

filling your day, your child's day with like a positive attention and positive reinforcement, the few moments where the, you know, not so pleasant behavior happens and you ignore, to be honest with you, that's a much more humane type of parenting because you're not confusing your child. Like it can be very confusing for a child when there's no distinction between what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing because it's all the same response from you. That's very confusing. And to be honest with you, that's why ADHD is rampant because kids get very mixed messages from parents. And that can create a lot of confusion from a kid and a lot of sloppy, messy, nasty behavior. Here's another one for you.

Bluey, Bluey, Bluey. She wants to watch Bluey every second. How do I deal with how she wants to watch TV and put parameters around that? And does TV contribute to ADHD or ADD? Well, I mean, I would say that screens of any sort can definitely contribute to behaviors that become classified as ADHD because kids are, number one, you know, you think about immediate gratification, right? That's one of the classics, hallmarks of kids who get diagnosed with this stuff because they can't wait, right? They can't wait patiently for anything. They're used to

getting everything they want the minute that they want it. And screens provide that massively. I mean, think about how, you know, when you think about someone on a screen, how quickly when we do it, how quickly we can get to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. So when you have a, you know, when you have a kid who's filled with that all day, they're not practicing waiting. And they're also not practicing engaging with things that require a little more perseverance. Like for instance, working through a more difficult toy, right? Like playing with something that requires thinking and figuring it out and not getting the answer right away or not getting the outcome that they want right away. So screens can be obviously like extremely detrimental for kids and should always be used very sparingly. I mean, they shouldn't have free access to that all the time.

What is sparingly? Is that one minute? Is that an hour? Is that two hours? I want a professional opinion here. Right. Well, there is no, unfortunately, set formula for this, but I would say screens are a fact of life now. I mean, you don't want to have that kid that doesn't have a screen and then they're like the weirdo in school who has never heard of anything they're talking. You know, it's such a fine balance for a parent who wants your kid to fit in socially, but then you also want your kid to not be a screen addict at four years old. So I would say, you know, you should schedule your kids day so that there's, you know, activities that they're engaging in. And then when you know, you need downtime, when you know, you have something you have to do,

you need a break, you need to go get on the Peloton, whatever, that's when you can program some screen time in and then not feel so bad about it because they've not had it up until that point. So I would use screens as you need them, but make sure they're not a- You're sitting in front of-

A freely accessible thing all the time. Yeah. Side note on this too, for people, even people under 40, I went to the ophthalmologist that Lauren's going to kill me because I have an eye issue. Oh my God. He's told you his whole biography today. The reason it's touching on screen time is this ophthalmologist said that he's seeing eye issues in people under 40 that they haven't seen in people under 40 in 50, 60 years, right?

Like there's things developing that they just don't see with people's eyes at this age, but it's because we have so much access to screens at such a young age and so consistently now. Well, and it's interesting because if you think about how images move across the screen, you know, it's a lot to look at and your eyes are constantly moving. That can be a barrier when you think about what it takes to read a book. I mean, when you just have your eyes moving in one direction for a period of time and then you switch rows. And, you know, eye tracking issues are definitely real when you have kids who practice staring at a screen too much and their eyes are all over the place. Especially close. Very close.

Let me ask you this. How does a child end up learning from you under your care? What are the circumstances that someone ends up coming to see you? Yeah. So a majority of my kids at FIT, most of them are just kind of struggling academically. They're either average learners or they're performing below average, and they need some supplementation to move them to the higher

percentile rankings. Like that's the classic, you know, situation at Fit. But then we also have kids who have real diagnoses. You know, I've got a ton of kids on it who have dyslexia diagnoses. I have a ton of kids who have attention deficit diagnoses and so forth. And some of those are real and sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're just, they've been failed instructionally and they just need to master reading skills and their dyslexia type stuff disappears. So, you know, but more often than not, you know, parents have obviously heard about us and they know how effective we are.

I mean, we move kids a year in 40 hours of instruction. So we move kids in, you know, when you think about a work week, 40 hours, you know, we've been replicating these outcomes for 20 years. And in 40 hours, kids move a grade level at fit, regardless of if they have a diagnosis of some sort or not. So it's very effective.

So that's how, you know, parents will reach out and they'll have a conversation. You know, their kids, you know, starting to struggle in math. Teachers are starting to get concerned. There might be a special ed referral of some sort. And parents, you know, will reach out to us and we fix it. Dr. Phil came on this podcast. Oh, he did. And he said something so interesting and I would love to get your take on it. I asked him how far back that COVID is going to set us. Children specifically. Children specifically. And

he said two decades. He thinks that, and I might be butchering this, because of remote learning, children are now having an even harder time learning. They're farther back. They move forward. They're going to get held back. And he says, because of this, you might see two decades of detrimental effects of this because of the way they're able to progress and move through school and then extrapolate that to the type of jobs they get, the type of insurance, the type of work, all of that.

I totally agree with that. And I don't know. I mean, two decades might be generous. I mean, it might be worse than that. Wow. Because what are you seeing like with ADHD and ADD with COVID? Well, you know, I'm, I'm seeing kids coming into fit. And again, you know, it's not necessarily like they have a, you know, real ADD, but they, because of the fact that it's been so, you know, especially the first year of COVID, when kids were totally stuck in the house, they were stuck in the house with their working parents

and screens were just off the chain. I mean, kids were on screens all day long, not only, you know, trying to do their Zoom classes, but beyond Zoom classes that they weren't really even paying attention to, they're on their phones all day. They're on their Xbox all day. So I definitely saw kids who were really struggling with sitting and focusing on any

type of academic task more than I would say I had in the past. And I will say we have the biggest enrollment we've ever had as an organization. We have more and more kids that need parents calling us left and right because kids have missed two years of instruction in a lot of cases. But I will also say it's not a direct, you know, it's hard to say because there are certain groups that are going to be fine, you know, and I hate to say that, but privileged kids are going to be fine because they have parents who are supplementing with places like Fit Learning, and they're also able to manage supplementing their children's instruction at home in ways that less privileged families can't because they're not home. They're the essential workers that couldn't do Zoom meetings from the house. So I think that, you know, what I worry about is the kind of income disparity, the inequity that already existed in education.

We have no idea what that's going to look like. The repercussions of this are gonna be a lot worse for low-income families and kids. There is this mineral that I am so into. It's called Shilajit, also known as liquid gold. We had the owner of Symbiotica on our podcast, and I was talking to him about all his bioavailable supplements that he has. They're high quality supplements. And I was like asking him which one he thinks that I should try first. And he said, you have to try this

liquid gold. Like this liquid gold is amazing. It contains over 84 different essential minerals. And what you do is it's like this super antioxidant that you put in your tea. Here's the thing. You don't want your tea too hot. And then I just put a scoop of these minerals in to my ginger tea and it improves your memory. It's anti-inflammatory and an energy booster. But most importantly, I feel like I wasn't getting my minerals in. And this is such a good way to get them all in. They also have a lot of other sophisticated organic formulations. Michael is a huge, huge fan of their D3 because it's mixed with K2. A lot of D3s aren't mixed with K2 and K2 is an essential ingredient to activate D3. And if I had

to tell you another one to grab, I would say the B12. I always like B12. I've liked it since high school. I feel like it gives me energy. It's known to give you energy. And this one, what I like about it is you squirt it on your tongue. So like in the morning, I'll just squirt it on my tongue really quick. These supplements really are the most sophisticated. Like I said, he really did his research when launching this company. It's incredible how much tender love and care was put into Symbiotica. They obviously have a code for you. Use code skinny at checkout for 15% off your first purchase. Get your liquid gold. You should also know that this is an addition to custom bundle discounts. So people can get 45%

off. Create your custom bundle at symbiotica.com and get 30% off. That's C-Y-M-B-I-O-T-I-K-A.com. I think now I've kind of moved on from the topic of COVID or I'm trying to, but I think some of my biggest frustrations with this thing is that people at the top of, let's say, the financial hierarchy, they're not going to feel the effects of this. You're probably in an environment where you can afford to weather the storm, you still have an income, your kids can still... Like you said, the financial gap and the wealth gap is going to get deeper and deeper. And I think people that aren't able to afford some of these things are going to struggle even more. And I think that is the

biggest tragedy if you start to think like 10, 20, 30 years. We did a short-term thing here with a very, very long consequence. Totally. And worse is that even kids who are accessing virtual instruction, it's clear the benefit was very slim. But then there were so many kids who couldn't even access that. They didn't have broadband internet and they didn't have a device to log on to instruction. So they actually didn't get instruction for months. And so we have no idea the impact of that yet. There's a test that we do nationally called the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the NAEP. It's on like every four years. It's a testing cycle every four years with 12th graders and every two years with fourth and eighth graders. And that was last administered in 2019 right before

the pandemic. And so that's scheduled to, I mean, I don't know what the plan is because schools are still kind of in disarray, but it'll be interesting to see if that does get administered this year, what those scores look like. Because that's the one test we have that, you know, has been going on since the 70s. And so we actually have long-term data on that and we can see the impact. So that'll be interesting when those data come out if, you know, that's where we'll see the impact on kids. You see a kid, say you're at school and there's 20 kids and you see a kid that has ADD or ADHD and you, you see this kid. What are things that you're like, we need to talk with that kid, that kid, there's something going on. Right. So again, I would focus more on the behavioral piece.

Like if I saw a kid acting out in the classroom, I wouldn't immediately be like that kid needs to be referred for an ADHD diagnosis and put on medication. That's not how I would address that as a behavioral interventionist. I would look and see, you know, what are the behaviors he's engaging in in the classroom and under what conditions do those behaviors occur? Like, do they always occur when they're supposed to be doing an independent math assignment at their desks? Is it always occurring during transition time? Is it always occurring when the teacher's lecturing and talking? Is it when lectures are happening and he's like acting out during lectures?

Like I would look at the conditions under which those behaviors are occurring. And then I would actually put into place, you know, interventions in the classroom before I ever had a child referred. Because I, you know, there's so many things you can do. Like for instance,

put in reinforcement-based systems in classrooms to transform those kinds of behaviors. Like, you know, earning, you know, privileges or points for exchangeable for things even in the home environment or at school for meeting requirements in the classroom, you know, like numbers of times that he's raising his hand rather than just, you know, yelling out in class or the amount of time he's staying in a seat versus getting out of his seat. So, again, there's, you know, our knee-jerk tendency in our culture is to immediately assume that anything a child does that seems out of the norm is medical and requires a medical diagnosis and medication. And that's actually not true. I mean, behavioral intervention is just as effective,

if not more effective than medication for a lot of kids because their behavioral issues have nothing to do with the neurological impairment. It has everything to do with the fact that they've learned to act this way because of the reinforcers they've received for that. And that's what needs to change. So if a parent's listening,

when should they be concerned where they feel like there's something really serious going on? This isn't just behavior situation. And I mean, look, that's real. There are a lot of situations when parents need help. And I would say when you find that you dread going home and being in the same space as your child because of the tantruming, the bad attitude, the kind of negative things that your child might say to you or say to their siblings. If your household feels like a war zone that you want to avoid, you need a professional to help you. And oftentimes, it's not just the kid that needs intervention. It's the parents that need some, I mean, I do parent coaching

and parent training all the time because a lot of times it's the parents that need some training around how to redesign their households. So I wrote an article for Thrive Global during the pandemic actually called How to Be the CEO of Your Household. Uh-oh, Michael's going to Google that right now and read it. Yes. Big daddy. I'm going to. Because it's true. I mean, when we think about, like, I run a business, like a pretty big business. And, you know, when I think about, like, how I do that, you know, like the types of behaviors I want to reinforce with my team.

And the systems in place and all that. And the systems in place to make sure that those, they meet their performance requirements and they continue to grow and do better. And, you better and all those reinforcers in place. Parents should be thinking the same way about their households. Would you pay off an employee for lying on the couch, eating Cheetos and talking back to you? I wouldn't. I mean, that would not fly. So parents need to feel empowered that they should be in charge of their

households and they should be using reinforcement systems in their households that reinforce and strengthen the kind of behaviors that you want your child's engaging in and decrease the ones that are unpleasant. So like for instance, free access to screens, as we've talked about before, that should not be a thing.

I mean, period. Kids should not have free access to screens. They should not have their phones and their iPads and their Xboxes. Just that's not a right. Those are privileges. And so when parents redesign their households where privileges are always being earned, rather than the tradition in parenting, which is privileges are removed based on bad behavior, right? Like, oh, well, you tolerate, you tolerate, you tolerate. And then finally, you're like, that's it. You lose your Xbox for a month. Like that's the parenting tradition. Just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's

the way to do it. It's actually really ineffective and it creates a really unpleasant household because then you have emotional behavior on the part of your kid and they hate you and they want to avoid you and they, they're really upset. So rather than like waiting until something gets bad enough to revoke a privilege, privileges should be being earned all the time. And there should be a set parameters of what they do in the household to earn their privileges. So like, here's your list of stuff you do for you to earn some Xbox time. You clean up your room,

you put your laundry in your hamper, you clean out the dishwasher and put your breakfast dishes in the sink. And then you get 20 minutes of Xbox. And then after that, you do this, this, and this. So it should always be earned. And when it's earned, what's so awesome is that when they, you know, talk back and whinge and whine about doing something in the household, you can ignore them rather than having to yell at them. Because all you have to say is, okay,

dude, well, you know, when you're ready to earn your Xbox time, you know that that's how you earn it. And you walk out of the room. Do you want to come to my okay, dude, well, you know, when you're ready to earn your Xbox time, you know that that's how you earn it. And you walk out of the room. Do you want to come to my house and set all these systems up for me? Please! Now you can do it now because she's only two. You know, I like, it's funny. Sometimes you hear someone say something and it just clicks.

Like when I hear you use the CEO reference of the house, I'm like, oh. Because again, like running this thing, like there's all of these types of things exist in a business, right? Right. Yeah. I want to take a twist and talk about Adderall. Great. I was living in LA for a long time. I'm also from San Diego and Adderall is all the rage.

And I am not talking about ADHD and ADD. I am talking about for weight loss and performance. I cannot tell you how many conversations that I have had running the Skinny Confidential, talking to women on a daily basis. And also in high school, it was like a total thing and college. And basically girls would,

and I'm saying girls because this isn't- I think it's men too. But the majority of, I talked to girls, would go to their doctor and basically fly to the doctor to get prescribed Adderall so that they could lose weight. And I will say, and I'm going to say this, it worked. They all lost weight and their performance enhanced. They might be picking their face in the corner like shaking, but it did work. How much are you seeing Adderall abuse? Is this still a thing? This is a topic that whenever we touch on it, we inevitably get people that are upset

and say, hey, this is a medication. And I guess the distinction we're trying to make is like, yes, we understand it's a medicine and it could be used that way. But there is a shitload of people that abuse it. And I think a lot of those people don't like being called out. Of course. I mean, look, whenever you have a drug that can be snorted for recreational purposes, which is what Adderall, I mean, Adderall, when I was at

Rollins College, man, people were snorting Adderall like they snort cocaine. I mean, it was the same thing. So, you know, what I will say is, yes, the overprescribing of these kinds of stimulants is rampant. And the requirements for a person getting a prescription are ridiculous. You know, you go in and you have a quick interview with a doctor in the office and the doctor prescribes it. You know, so the problem is, number one, on the medical provider's side, where there's not enough regulations and requirements around doing this. What is the incentive for the doctor to do that?

Is it just financial? Happy patients. Okay. Who wants to deal? So my sister's a pediatrician in Atlanta. And she's one of the few that takes a stand on a lot of things. And one of the things she takes a stand on is, I'm not just going to prescribe you an antibiotic

because you think your child needs an antibiotic. I'm the doctor and your child has a virus and I'm not prescribing. And so she has to deal with the wrath of that. And the same thing is like, she's conservative in her diagnosing of ADHD and prescribing of meds. Sorry, just to make sure I'm understanding. When you say the wrath of that, you mean parents being upset that she won't? Very upset. Very upset. So she has suffered the consequences of that. And to be honest with you, she's had to balance the other partners in her practice.

Because again, think about these doctors. Their patients are their clients. And so it's like, you're trying to keep your patients happy, trying to keep your clients happy. There's a ton of different practices, they're all competing with each other. So it is, the fact that medicine is big business in a lot of ways, they want to appease their patients. So that happens a lot. And it is dramatically overdone.

I just went through this with my son. So my son's at boarding school. He's always been a great student. He's not going to Harvard. I'll just be honest. But he's a great student. He does fine. And he's a great athlete.

And all of a sudden, he's talking to me about how he thinks he should get on Adderall because all his friends are on Adderall. Wrong person to talk to, buddy. And he needs an edge. And he's like, mom, it's like not fair because I don't have the same edge as they have. And that's something to think about because like Adderall is a performance enhancing drug. I mean, just as like if you were going to take steroids and you're a weight, you know, you're an athlete, steroids, performance enhancing, same with Adderall. Like, why do you think we all drink

a lot of caffeine? Right. Because it is a stimulant and it helps wake us up and make us more focused and able to multitask. Adderall's the same thing, just at a different level than caffeine. So it is a performance enhancing drug. And so now it's almost like kids who aren't on Adderall don't have a competitive edge like other kids. When you're talking about taking the SAT or cramming for an exam or, you know, they, if they're not feeling sleepy because they have their Adderall going for them. So it is creating this, like the fact that my son was like, I feel like I should get on Adderall. Everybody else is on Adderall. It's like, it's not fair. Like I don't have the same edge. Well, that's how I think a lot of girls are feeling on Instagram too. When they're scrolling through the feed and they're seeing these like super thin girls and some of it is from Adderall abuse. They're feeling like,

how can I even keep up with this? No. And for girls, I mean, that's going down that rabbit hole. I mean, there's so much there, you know, social media is just a disaster for adolescents and teenagers. Well, it's a disaster for us. I mean, who are we kidding? Like, it's just as bad when, you know, when you're a parent and, you know, you see these perfect families and these perfect pictures and you're like, meanwhile, your two-year-old's having a tantrum and there's poop all over her

and she's, you know, throwing things and snot. And you're like, am I the only person experiencing this? Rather than knowing that everyone's faking it on social media. Or at least just showing their best by the way zaza shit her pants yesterday after after she hit her head and it was all the way down to her toes so if anyone's looking at me thinking that zaza shit everywhere i had to put

her in the bathtub this was a two-person job almost a three-person job to get this thing organized michael left it to me though it's real it real. It's real. So yeah, the weight loss thing too is something to touch on because it's the same way. People think people are just like naturally blessed, but some of it is Adderall. So I would love for you to speak on that. Well, I just think this whole thing is a real problem. The overprescribing of these kinds of medications is a crisis. You know, just like the opioid epidemic, it's a crisis. And it has to start with medical providers. I mean, they have to stop doing that. I mean, there's no other way to stop it. Because if they're accessing these prescriptions from a doctor, then it has to start with the doctor.

Now, look, I'm not saying you can't just get Adderall in other ways. You absolutely can. But the fact is that a lot of this is coming from medical providers. And so that is something that has to be handled at that level. I mean, it's wrong and there needs to be a lot more regulation on when a doctor can prescribe this and the requirements that need to be met before it's done and the monitoring of it after it's done. I mean, the fact that there's no, you know, it's not done scientifically. Like there's no, you know, so in behavior science, we would never begin a behavioral intervention with a kid before we take data on the problem. So for instance, let's go back to that kid in the classroom, right? Let's say Johnny's in the classroom and he has a tendency to get out of a seat and talk out. So, and I'm brought in to intervene. The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to

go in the classroom and I'm going to sit there and I'm going to count in a time period how often this behavior happens. Because number one, the teacher could be making it up. The teacher could say he's always out of his seat and he's always talking out. And then I go in and I observe him for a week and I only see three instances. So it's actually incorrect. He's not out of his seat and he's always talking out. And then I go in and I observe him for a week and I only see three instances. So it's actually incorrect. He's not out of his seat and talking out. I don't, and the teacher was wrong. So I need to go in the classroom and I need to count and measure the behavior that is the supposed problem and identify the severity of the problem. Like how frequently is it happening? Is it, you know, what's the rate we would say? How high of a rate is it? After I do that,

then I'm gonna come up with some type of intervention, right? Like I said, like some kind of reinforcement schedule for raising his hand and staying in his seat, right? And then I'm gonna take data after the intervention's implemented and see did it reduce the frequency or rate of speaking out and getting out of a seat. And then if it did, then I know it worked.

And if it didn't, then I'm gonna try something else. So I do it like a scientist. Like that's what we do. But that's not what happens with medication. So doctors are told that there's a problem by a caregiver. They take the caregiver's word for it. There's no data taken of what this problem supposedly is. Then the medication's prescribed and they leave the office and that's it. There's no evidence taken of the fact that the medication worked to address the issue that the caregiver suggested there was. There's no, and then what happens is parents complain,

well, it's not a high enough dose. And then they start messing with doses based on hearsay. It's so not done like scientists operate. It's very odd. And so that alone is telling. Quick break to talk about saving and investing in your future. Ever since we opened the door on the show and did that finance episode or finance focus episode a few months back on the Skinny Confidential Him and Her podcast, we get so many questions about investing, saving, how much to save. My answer to that is always save as much as you can and always save before you spend. Really pay yourself first and then spend after.

So many people make the mistake of spending and then trying to save after. You'll never be able to save enough that way, which is why I love this app Wealthfront. Wealthfront is a totally automated trading application that helps you build diversified portfolios in my favorite kind of investments for long-term investing, and those are index funds. And Wealthfront makes it extremely easy if you're a first-time investor, someone just trying to set some money aside, figure it out, and put your cash to work. Best of all, Wealthfront is trusted with over $27 billion in assets, helping nearly half a million people build their wealth. And here's the thing.

Your options aren't only index funds. If you want to invest in solar, cannabis, you want to start getting into crypto, you can do all of that through Wealthfront. It really offers all sorts of diversified portfolios and options. And you can get your first $5,000 managed for free for life by going to Wealthfront.com. To start building your wealth and get your first $5,000 managed for free for life by going to wealthfront.com slash skinny to start building your wealth and get your first $5,000 managed for free for life. Go to wealthfront.com slash skinny. That's W-E-A-L-T-H-F-R-O-N-T.com slash skinny to start building your wealth today. That's wealthfront.com slash skinny and get started today. Again, guys, I think this is so important.

Pay yourself, save, invest in your future, and sleep well knowing that you're being responsible with the money that you're earning. If someone is on or taking Adderall and they don't have ADHD and they don't have ADD and they're using it for performance and weight loss, what does it do to the brain? What does it do to the body? What does it do to the brain? What does it do to the body?

What does it do to the metabolism? What does it do to the person? Whether or not you have neurological ADHD or not, the drug works the same way. You know, it's, it's, does the, the same things happen with the drug. I mean, that's the same thing as if like you drink coffee, you know, like anyone who drinks coffee.

Now, some people are very, are more sensitive to coffee than others. Some people can't, you know, Some people drink caffeine and they're shaking. And some people like me can drink like a vat of caffeine a day. And it's like, I'll sleep like a rock. So, you know, again, it depends on, there's certain elements that make, you know, people more sensitive to this stuff than others. But Adderall works the same way, regardless of the profile of the person. So, you know, it's going to have the same impact.

But the problem is now you have a dependency on something. And, you know, if you have a dependency where you feel like you can't perform without it, right? Like that's what happens with kids. Like they're like, well, I can't take this test because I don't have my Adderall or I can't study for this because I don't have my Adderall. Or if I don't have my Adderall,

I'm not going to make my weight for my, you know, a lot of wrestlers, you know, in wrestling or, you know, so anytime we have a dependency on something, we're not actually developing our own skills at addressing our stuff. So like if I have a weight problem, well, it's a lot better for me to do the work to figure out why am I overeating?

You know, how can I get on a better exercise routine? Like how can I develop some healthy habits? It's the easy way out. I mean, it's like what we want as a culture. It's, you know, of course we want to take a pill and fix a problem because it's easy, but that's actually not how it works. Like behavioral habits get established over time

and they take time to change. And, you know, it's getting the culture into a better perspective on the work it takes to do that. Like the work it takes to establish really great academic habits with kids. It takes time and effort to establish awesome academic habits that aren't drug induced. And it takes effort to engage in healthy habits like exercise habits and healthy eating habits that aren't drug induced So it's just the effort required is what people don't want to put forth Which sounds like a lazy hack. Yeah, it is. It's a total lazy hack Okay, so as adults if we want to improve our focus and be less distracted

Maybe you could leave our audience with a bunch of different tactical tips and tricks that maybe you practice. I feel like you're the perfect person to ask this in your work, at school, whatever. Well, here's what I will say. So like any habit, you know, first of all, the key is becoming is awareness. So for instance, let's say we have the habit like we all do of looking at our phone every five seconds, right? Mindlessness. Without even realizing it, we're looking at our phone. Or we're working in our office and we're like something we call it fit. We work on this task switching, right? So like you're composing an email, but in the middle of composing an email, all of a sudden you're checking your schedule and you're checking your Instagram

and your Facebook, but you were in the middle of constructing an email. So for adults, and I do this with kids too, I mean, teenagers and adolescents, but the first thing is become aware of yourself. And a lot of the time, the most effective way to become aware of yourself is to actually be nerdy and take data on it. So like how often count throughout the day? Like, so my partner, my business partner, one of them, Kendra Newsome, she had a task switching problem where she was constantly switching tasks and she would never finish anything.

So she kept a sticky note on her water bottle that she had all day, right? And every time she noticed herself task switching, she'd tally it on her water bottle. And at the end of the day, she'd count up how many task switches she had. I would need like one of those post-it things that you just take and it just scrolls down.

Exactly. Well, there you go. So then she'd set goals for herself. So she'd say, okay, yesterday I had 32 task switches. So today I'm going to try to beat that and have like 31 or less. So one key to self awareness is actually measuring it. Anytime you have a habit, like if you're trying to quit smoking

like me, I'm addicted to Nicorette gum. And by the way, it's not because I'm a smoker. I just got addicted to the gum. Why is it good? It's like Adderall. Wait, what does it do? I've never heard someone. We got to take a little bit of a side though. It's so weird. Like, how did you get addicted to that? Are you just chewing Trident? And one day you're like, I'm going to try Nicorette? Well, so my husband had a real history of tobacco love. I mean, he has a long, deep love of tobacco products.

So does Michael Bostic. No, not anymore, but I did. I know where this is going. Oh, dipping and smoking. He loves it all. So anyway, so he got on the gum because I was like, you got to get off that. You know, come on.

You got to walk our kids down the aisle. Like I'm not going to have you dying of like mouth cancer or lung cancer. Anyway, so he started chewing the gum. Fast forward to our opening our first office in New York City. And it was a really rough time because I'm commuting.

I'm like leaving at 5 a.m. in the morning to go to the office. And then I'm coming home at like 11, 12 o'clock at night. Oh my gosh. So it was like a really tough time. And we still had kids. We had two little kids. Anyway, so I was falling asleep at the wheel. But I will say I'm good at caffeine, but if I drink it too late, then it does affect my sleeping. Okay. So I couldn't have a coffee driving home from work because then I wouldn't sleep at night. So Nick's like, okay, I'm going to put some Nicorette gum

in your cup holder of your car. And when you feel like you're going to fall asleep at the wheel, put in a piece of Nicorette gum. That's scary to falling asleep at the wheel. Well, because I did once. I fell asleep on the Cross Island Parkway, which is a really scary road in New York. It's very narrow and it's scary. And I fell asleep.

I literally woke up and I was like still driving. Yeah, that's really scary. So I put in a piece of Nicorette gum and nicotine, baby. Oh yeah, don't you tell me. All of a sudden, I was addicted. I was just chewing it in the car and then one day I'm at the office and I'm feeling really tired and cranky and I went in my bag

and there was a piece, I put one in my purse and so I chewed it at the office. Well, that's it. Then all of a sudden I'm chewing like 12 a day. Is it bad for you? No, that's the problem. If it was bad for me, I wouldn't do it. But it's just nicotine. It's like caffeine. It Is it bad for you? No, that's the problem. If it was bad for me, I wouldn't do it. But it's just nicotine. It's like caffeine.

It's addicting. It's not bad for you. So Lauren, here's what you got to understand. When I had my heyday back of cigarettes and stuff like that, nicotine is my probably

drug of choice, right? Like more than alcohol, more than anything because like you said, I mean, the tobacco and the smoke and all that's terrible for your lungs.

You have to get up. But the nicotine, the way it feel and going fast and being alert and being awake gives you, yeah. Wait, why doesn't everyone chew Nicorette gum though? If it's not addicting, I don't understand. No, it's extremely addicting. Is it bad for you? Oh no, it's very addicting.

Is it not addicting? Is it bad for you? So then why doesn't everyone chew it? I don't get it. There have been studies that show a little bit of nicotine can be actually beneficial. Yeah, I think you can be beneficial. Are you guys really, like, is there really nothing bad for you?

Well, because you're just doing it all the time. There's nothing. Well, and the problem is the more you do it, the less you feel it. And so the more you have to do to feel it. Okay, so what happened? Did you have to like, how do you get off Nicorette gum?

I haven't yet. I'll tell you later. You don't have a piece in your mouth. Well, I took it out right before the interview started. Did you notice that? Okay. Anyway, it's become a really big problem for me. Give me some of that gum.

No, I'm just kidding. I keep planning. I'll give you some, Carly. It's delicious. I recommend the spearmint flavor. It took me a while. I need to stay away from that kind of stuff. So I've been planning my quitting this habit for a while.

And so when I quit this, which I will, I just haven't yet. But when I do quit this, here's what I will do. I will, number one, I will start counting and actually graphing how many pieces I chew a day, number one. Number two, I'm going to start tallying every time I have an urge to put a piece in my mouth, right? Because that's what happens. You have an urge with anything, drinking, smoking. Like first you crave it, then you give it to yourself. So you reinforce your urges, right? So when I get off the gum, I'm going to start tallying how often I have an urge to chew. So it's not just how many I'm chewing, it's how often I want it, right? So I'm counting every time I experience an urge.

Then when I choose to quit, when I choose to quit, what I will do is continue to count those things. And I'll probably do a fading procedure for myself where I'm like, okay, I'm going to ignore these urges and I'm going to let, I'm going to reinforce my urge, but I'm not going to reinforce it until 10 o'clock in the morning. I'll set some parameters for myself. Like I'm not going to let myself have my first piece of gum until this time. And then it'll extend. Okay. I'm not going to have another piece of gum until 12. Okay. I'm not going to let myself have until two until I'm like going through the whole day. And then I get my piece for my treat after dinner or whatever. So that's how you handle this stuff behaviorally.

So the point is you have to count all this stuff and slowly take all the data. And then see if it's, because what's going to happen is, because there's tons of science on this and with all kinds of addiction in behavior science. So there's habit reversal and addiction work and behavior science that shows that when you stop reinforcing the urge with the substance, the urges decrease, right? It's not

immediate, but they do. So it's like, because you're reinforcing the urge by giving yourself the substance. Huh. That sounds like it really rounds out our conversation from the beginning of reinforcing a two-year-old and how not to. We do it all the time to ourselves. Right. So that's what I'm saying. So one thing you can do is engage in mindfulness. And one, you know, everyone talks about mindfulness and it's all fluffy and la la la, but the way you can engage in mindfulness is becoming really present to yourself

and actually counting the things you do that you know are kind of getting in your way. Like I'm not productive at work because of all I do, I'm too distracted. I get on social media, I get on my email. So like I wrote a book and when I wrote my book, first of all, I went up to like a cabin in the woods in upstate New York by myself without my family for two full weeks. Sounds fucking amazing. It actually was amazing. Yeah, that sounds great. It was a little, I called it the murder cabin. It was a little creepy up there. Murder, murder. It was like the murder cabin. A little solitude.

It was awesome. So I was, first of all, I took myself out of my typical world and then I shut off everything on my laptop except for my word document. So I took a lot of discipline. I disconnected my, I mean, I turned my email, like all of that gone. I didn't have social media. I, all of it gone. And then after I'd work for like a really productive day, I'd let myself like, you know, get on my social media, but I used it as like a reinforcer for like a certain amount of work I got done, a certain number of pages, a certain number of words,

or a certain amount of time that I was focused. So like, we can't expect for our habits to change without doing something to change them. And the problem is people want to just blame it on stuff. Like, oh, I have attention deficit, just a version of something I can do about it. Or, oh, I need medication. without doing something to change them. And the problem is people want to just blame it on stuff like, oh, I have attention deficit, just a version of something I can do about it. Or, oh, I need medication.

Rather than, I actually have to put forth the effort to change my own behavior, which means I have to put forth some discipline in my office, like not have my social media apps on my computer at work. Accountability. A little accountability. You know, it's so funny you say that because I was doing this Q&A yesterday and I get this question. Like, I like to read a lot, so it's so funny you say that because i was doing this q a

yesterday and i get this question like i like to read a lot so it's never been a problem it's one of my even like i think that's actually what saved me in schools i even if i couldn't learn i was always reading on my own give the conclusion of your autobiography but um i was telling people that uh people said well i don't have time to do this and one of the things i said and this is perfect for this is look at, is your phone now records your screen time and it shows you the behaviors you're doing on your screen, like how much social media, how much email, how much Netflix, all these things. And I was like, you can also set limits on your phone for each of these things where

it shuts them off. I think that's a good way to start. Maybe if you're on social media four hours, you can set a limit to two hours and it automatically will shut it off for you. You know what'll be popping in the delivery room when I give birth? Not Michael, not me, but actually my sparkling rosé. I will have Bev on ice. Okay. Michael will have to have this ready to go. I want candles that are flameless. The ones that you just like light, put a battery in. I want rosé. I want essential oils and meditation music. So I hope Michael's taking note.

I am a huge fan of Bev. It's a female-founded canned wine brand. This is the cutest gift to bring to housewarming parties. I bring it all the time when I'm going over to a girlfriend's house or even our neighbors. I brought them little cans of Pinot Gris. It's so cute and adorable. You can just stick a straw in it and drink it. I like these wines because it's one of the only wines that I have found in a can that's dry and crisp and a little fizzy. Super refreshing, delicious, and they have zero sugar. You would not believe, side note, how many wines have added sugar. These have zero sugar and three carbs and only 100 calories per serving. My kind of wine. So they have four packs, like I said, that are great for gifting or hosting. They're perfect for any holidays that you have coming up.

You could do this for Easter. I had them displayed for Valentine's Day. Super cute. You can get the two-day shipping straight to your door and shipping is always free. And of course, I've worked out a special deal for you. You're going to receive 20% off your first purchase plus free shipping on all orders. If you're going to try the one I like, it's their best-selling ladies' night variety pack. So you can check out all the flavors and you can see which one is your fave. You're going to go to drinkbev.com slash skinny or use code skinny at checkout to claim this deal. That's d-r-i-n-k-b-e-v.com slash skinny.

Bev can also be found at retailers nationwide, including Target, Total Line, BevMo, and more. Cheers. You know what the most invaluable tool is for anyone, kids, adults? A timer. So like if you have issues with being productive in your office or whatever,

set a timer for yourself. Like I'm going to work for 10 minutes and when the timer goes off, I'll let myself stand up for my desk and go, you know, go to the break room, talk to some of my pal or whatever it may be. Set it for 30 minutes or whatever, you know, whatever you, but a timer is amazing. And then stick to the timer. Like I'm not getting up until my timer goes off. And I mean, this is what I do with parents. So we set up behavior timers and homework timers all the time where, you know, parents set

it up for their kids when during homework time where they set the, you know, you're going to work for 15 minutes without getting up from this table. And when the timer goes off, that's when you can stand up and take a break. We should do that with eating. With eating, set a timer. No, she wants to get out of her chair the second she sits sits down, we can say you have five minutes in your chair. Here's your cute, I have a strawberry timer. A really cute timer. It's pink. And I can say you have to finish and then you can get up after five minutes. Timers are amazing. That's a really good tip. And also just notice like what if you fail, like, because what happens with parents is they're like, well, that doesn't work. I tried it. It doesn't work doesn't work what you be careful like be like a scientist because let's

say you set the timer for five minutes but she tends to try to get out of her chair 30 seconds after you sit her at the table well you're setting yourself up for failure because if she's already if she can't sit for five minutes then don't set the timer for five minutes like you gotta it's something we call shaping in behavior science, which is when we gradually shape up the behavior, starting with a level of behavior that's achievable. And then we gradually increase the goal. So if she's jumping out of her chair after she's been at the table for one minute, well, I would set the timer for 30 seconds so that the timer goes off and she's been successful. You're like, look, you can get up now. And then gradually increase the time period. So be careful about that stuff because that's what parents will successful. You're like, look, you can get up now. And then gradually increase the time period. So, you know, be careful about that stuff because that's what parents will

do. They're like, well, I set the timer for 20 minutes and he was throwing a tantrum two minutes into homework. And I'm like, well, then maybe you should set the timer for one minute. Okay. But what about the reversal when I set a timer and I say, okay, you can watch Bluey for 15 minutes, but when the timer goes off, it's over. So that's the opposite of what I just said, though, because she wants to get up when she eats. So she'll be happy when the timer's off, but with Bluey, she would be upset. But that's okay, because sometimes that works too. We found in behavior science that sometimes when you have a planned consequence that's not always pleasant for a kid, when they're warned about it ahead of time,

it's a little easier to manage because it's not like, surprise, I'm turning the television off. Yeah, that's a good idea. Is there a specific type of, I know this is very granular, is there a specific type of timer that you think works well with children or adolescents? Well, I always use the same RadioShack count up, count down timer that I can type in. We love timers that fit. You can type in the exact time in there. Like if there's buttons on the front,

I can show you it. Yeah, can you show us it? And also we can leave it in the show notes. I have one more question. And this is just, this kind of goes back to some topics earlier, but I think I've heard some in your voice, a little bit of frustration with the modern school system.

Very much so. And this is for you because you're the expert. If you could wave a magic wand and change one to three things about the modern school system, what would those things be? This is my favorite question. Because I feel like it's been the same system for what? Ever. Yeah.

Over a century. A little rusty. Okay. First and foremost, number one, active participation in the classroom. So you know, like the Charlie Brown cartoons, my favorite. And when the teacher comes on the cartoon, you always hear it like the wah, wah, wah, wah, wah in the background. Yeah, that's my whole childhood.

You're the best, right? But that's actually what it's like because teachers talk too much. So, what we know in behavior science is that behavior, learning occurs and only occurs when the behavior is repeatedly practiced and followed by reinforcement. But if you watch a classroom, who's the person doing most of the behaving? The teacher.

She's standing at the front of the classroom and talking, talking, talking, talking. And what are the kids doing? Staring, picking their noses, messing around, messing with their neighbors, sleeping, daydreaming, looking out the window. They're not engaged. So there's something called direct instruction,

capital D, capital I, and it's a method of instruction we use at FIT, where there's a one-to-one correspondence between teacher talk and student talk. So for instance, if I was gonna teach a lesson on vowels, I wouldn't, this is like, oh, I'm gonna show you traditional versus the better way. So traditional will be like,

boys and girls, we're gonna talk about vowels today. And vowels are very special letters and they play a very special role in words. And there's five of them. And does anybody in the class know what a vowel is? Who can tell me what a vowel is? Can anyone tell me what a vowel is? And then like, wait for a kid to maybe raise their hand. And then they say the wrong answer. Oh no, that's not a vowel. That's actually a consonant. Who else? You know, like this, blah, blah, blah. Rather than we're going to talk about vowels. What are we going to talk about? And the entire class in unison says vowels. And then the teacher can provide reinforcement. That's right. Perfect. There are five vowels. How many vowels? And the entire class has five. Amazing. Your vowels are A, E, I, O, and U. What are your vowels? And the whole class says, A, E, I, O, and U, awesome.

And in like 30 seconds, the teachers already engaged the entire class. They've all responded and received reinforcement for a correct response. And that is the method of instruction that should be being used in the schools in the United States. And this goes back to the 1970s with something called Project Follow-Through,

which was the largest federally funded educational, study of educational outcomes ever conducted in America. And direct instruction was one of the methodologies evaluated in that study. And it was undeniable the standard deviations higher on academic achievement tests that students achieved when direct instruction was used versus all these other approaches. So my first and foremost thing would be like teachers need to be using direct instruction and there needs to be a one-to-one correspondence between teacher talk and student responses and the entire class should respond, not one kid who raises their hand while the rest of them are totally checked out of the building. So that's my number one thing, direct instruction. Number two, content is pushed over competency in the

United States. Now we have at earlier and earlier ages, you know, the educational establishment doesn't really know how to fix the problem. So what they do is they just come up with stuff and they're like, oh, I think the way to fix it is to have like, you know, kindergartners doing science and writing in journals and writing stories where meanwhile kindergartners can't read, can't hold a pencil and don't know how to write their letters. Yet they're supposed to write in a journal after school. So it's ridiculous. So rather than pushing content, content, content,

it should be about simplifying and focusing on mastering basic skills and giving kids the time in class to practice those skills to what we call in behavioral science, fluency, which is a level of mastery synonymous with neurological permanence, meaning it doesn't get forgotten. It's automatic. It's effortless. Kids don't have the opportunity to do that. Practice happens after school at best in homework, rather than it being built into the school day where kids are practicing basic skills to fluency.

That's number two. Number three is pushing kids ahead based on age. So like kids going to second grade because they turn seven. They go into third grade because they turn eight. And that's wrong because we know that age is actually not a critical predictor of academic achievement. We don't just naturally start performing academic skills because we turned a year older.

Academic skills are a function of instruction and reinforced practice. And you can't perform third grade level skills if you haven't mastered first and second grade level skills. Yet this is happening all the time in schools where kids are not mastering skills in first and second grade and they're being pushed ahead anyway.

And then what happens? You have kids being tested for special ed, being labeled with dyslexia, being put on medication when there's nothing wrong with them. And you have parents also being scared like, oh, I can't let my kid get held back. I need to push them through even if they're not ready. Also, what you said in the beginning is like normal is rewarded. I don't get why they don't teach things like resourcefulness or flexibility of the mind or like things that make students look outside the box. Like critical thinking skills. Yes. I would like to see more of that. I felt really stifled when I was young because it was like you have to stand in this straight line and you can't go off. And I always wanted to go off the line, but like

there wasn't a lot of room for that. Your book. Yes, my book. Blind Spots, Why Students Fail and the Science That Can Save Them. Tell us about it. Where can we find the book? Who needs this book? Well, I mean, I wrote the book for, I mean, everyone.

I would say that parents, educators, policymakers are really my primary, you know, who I wrote the book for. People who make the laws, people who decide how school goes and parents who have to send their kids there. So, and teachers who are victims of this too, because teachers aren't trained in the science of how learning actually happens,

which is really kind of awful. If you think about it, like you're expected, you go to the college of ed, then you're expected to go out in the world and educate kids, but you've never really been trained in the scientific way in which to do that, which is why it doesn't work.

So the book is really for that, you know, for anyone who has any vested interest in how education goes, which should be everyone because it's linked to our economy. It's linked to crime. It's linked. I mean, there's so many reasons

why we want a well-educated populace. And so everyone should care about it. So I wrote it for those people. The book is about, the reason it's called Blind Spots is because the educational establishment, the medical establishment, even the mainstream psychological establishment

actually have blind spots about how learning actually happens. There's a lot of popular myths about how learning occurs, like exposure-based theories of learning. Like if I just expose my kids to lots of stuff, they'll learn, which is wrong. As we know, as I mentioned, you can't learn anything well unless you're repeatedly given the opportunity to practice it and have that practice reinforced. That's how learning happens. And it's

not how school is designed. So exposure theories of learning, developmental theories of learning, like, oh, you know, they're just not ready to read yet because they're not old enough. But when they, they'll start magically reading because they're going to get older. It's, that's a lie.

Kids learn to read because we teach them to read well. So it really distinguishes some blind spots for the public, for people in these establishments and kind of, you know, some blind spots for the public, for people in these establishments, and kind of lays out why schools are the way they are and what promulgates those ineffective practices and actually how to change that,

like what the practices could be and actually should be based on what we know scientifically about how learning happens and what is possible when that type of science is used, which is what we've demonstrated at Fit Learning for over 20 years, which is a grade level advancement and 40 hours of instruction.

I mean, can you imagine? Like when we talk about the impact of COVID, like we're in a situation where we have to rapidly accelerate learning gains that have been lost. We can't like do the same stuff. We can't do the same ineffective slow stuff. No, we have to pivot and evolve to what the circumstances are of the world. And if we choose not to do that, there's, well, there is going to

be a real big fucking problem. We're in big trouble. Yeah. Where can everyone find your book and your Instagram? Pimp yourself out. So my, so I have a website, drkimberlybarrons.com. And all the stuff I've ever done is on there. And my book, you can order my book right there. You can get it on Amazon. You can get it on IPG Books, which is my book distributor, Collective Book Studio, which is my publisher.

So if you just Google Dr. Kimberly Barrons, you'll find it. Instagram handle? Instagram handle is drkbarrons. Okay, next time you come on, Dr. Kimberly, the first question I'm going to ask you is, are you addicted to Nicorette? Wait, how do you say it?

Did I say it right? Nicorette. Nicorette gum. I should own stock in that company, by the way. You should. It's really expensive. I mean, listen, I haven't thought about this. It could be a new sponsor.

Nicorette gum. Nicorette gum. Get off the Adderall. Just chew Nicorette instead. It's not very bad for you, but it sure is addicting. You can do it without a prescription. Thank you for coming on. That was super informative.

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