The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Dr. Michael Gervais On How To Stop Worrying About What People Think Of You & Start Showing Up For Yourself

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

#648: Today, we're sitting down for a second time with Dr. Mike Gervais. Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance psychologist, author, and one of the world’s leading experts on the relationship between the mind and human performance. Over the course of a 20-year career working with world-class performers and organizations, Dr. Gervais has developed a framework for the mental skills and practices that allow organizations, teams, and individuals to thrive in pressure-packed environments. He joins us today for a discussion on all things human behavior and performance. We discuss the core struggles the average person deals with, how to identify these in yourself, and the steps necessary to overcome these struggles. He also delves into how to unlearn past behavior, how to decide who should be in your inner circle, and re-learning how to trust your own instincts.   To connect with Dr. Michael Gervais click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Evarts Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To subscribe to our YouTube Page click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace From websites and online stores to marketing tools and analytics, Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to build a beautiful online presence and run your business. Go to squarespace.com/skinny for a free trial & use code SKINNY for 10% off your first purchase of a website domain. This episode is brought to you by Just Thrive These days, stress seems to hit us from every possible angle in any environment at any time, day after day. Enter Just Calm - the breakthrough new stress and mood support formula from Just Thrive. Get 20% off a 90-day bottle of Just Thrive probiotic + Just Calm supplement at justthrivehealth.com with code SKINNY at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Vegamour Give your hair the power of the little pink bottle. Visit vegamour.com/SKINNY and use code SKINNY at checkout to receive 20% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Wildgrain Wildgrain is the first ever bake-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, fresh pastas, and artisanal pastries. Get $30 off your first box at wildgrain.com/SKINNY This episode is brought to you by LMNT LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. It contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio: 1000mg sodium, 200mg potassium, and 60mg magnesium. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinkLMNT.com/SKINNY This episode is brought to you by Branch Basics The Branch Basics Premium Starter Kit will provide you with everything you need to replace all of your toxic cleaning products in your home. It’s really a no-brainer. Go to branchbasics.com and use code SKINNY for 15% off their starter kit and free shipping. Produced by Dear Media  

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

Aha! The essence of meditation is to become more aware. Him and Her. like, where it wants to go or move, and you are just to follow that feeling, you become exponentially more tuned to your emotional self. The seat of the whole thing is just to become more aware of your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions, and the world around you. And with greater awareness, you're able to guide just a little bit better the way you want to live your life. Hello, everybody.

Welcome back to the Him and Her Show. Today, we're sitting down with one of our favorite guests, again, Dr. Michael Gervais. For those of you who have not heard Dr. Michael Gervais on this show or heard his show or know of him, Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance psychologist, author, and one of the world's leading experts on relationships between the mind and human performance. Over the course of a 20-year career working with world-class performers and organizations, Dr. Gervais has developed a framework for the mental skills and practices that allow organizations, teams, and individuals to thrive in pressure-packed environments. Today, he joins us for a discussion on all things human behavior.

We talk about what it's like to work with narcissists, what people will do for acceptance, what FOPO is and why it's holding you back, the spotlight effect, whose opinion you should care about versus whose you should not, core struggles that most people struggle with and how to identify them, tricks to discover your inner self and be more present. We are going deep into all these subjects all over the place in a wide variety of human performance. With that, Dr. Michael Gervais, welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. The last time you were on our podcast, you gave me the best advice. It changed my life. I was asking you about narcissists and you said,

Lauren, there's nothing you can do. Let it go. Besides, put them on stage. And I've been putting them on stage since you came on three years ago and it's working out fucking brilliant. Really? Oh my God. Oh, that is so good. I just put them on stage. I do the Broadway lights. I asked 600 questions. I tee them up and it's, I can deal with narcissists now. Yeah. I mean, that's what they need. They need to be seen. When it comes to the world of elite athletics is where I cut my teeth, is that they're the ones that actually don't need sport psychology from a performance standpoint. They might need it in other ways and for other parts of their life, but all you got to do is turn the lights on and they're like, I'm here,

let's go. And they show up and they know how to bring it when it matters. Is managing this, and we'll talk about a million other things, but is managing a narcissistic athlete easier or harder? Because I would imagine since they're so interested in servicing themselves that you might get the best performance, but at the same time, maybe it's hard to get them to work with a team. Yeah. So let's just kind of pull it apart a little bit. Narcissistic personality

disorder, NPD, is a pretty severe psychological condition. Being a bit narcissistic, kind of being about me, is common in elite performing environments, whether it's sport or otherwise. And the challenge is nobody can do the extraordinary alone. So we need each other. And the narcissist is more interested in me than we. And so that's where team starts to break down. So when you think about managing a narcissist or coaching a narcissist from a team or a business perspective, the best guidance is to be relationship-based. So if you make a commitment to be relationship-based and developmentally-minded, so we're going to work on a relationship

and help each other be better, that that agreement is far better than making an agreement on outcome. So you get the input right to know the person and then you know how to work with them. Yeah, so relationship-based and developmentally-minded is kind of the foundation. Michael Treve, back on the show. Excited to have you. I was saying every time you come on, this audience gets fired up, but I was thinking when you reached out or team reached

out or somebody reached out, like it's a shame because we haven't seen you in so long. And the last time we saw you was during COVID conditions. And it was like one of the two or three remote interviews we've ever done. We typically don't do them. New book out, first rule of mastery, stop worrying about what people think of you. Music to my ears. Let's dive in. First of all, why did you decide to call it that? Did you notice this was a common denominator in a lot of high performers? Yeah. So I'll do a bit of an origin story and then get to how this happened is that I saved up for a couple of summers. I was 16 years old, $2,000 to get my first car. And I was really excited. I'm growing up in California. I got my surfboard in the back.

I remember that there was a car going in the same direction of me on my left-hand side that was going to pass me. Not too fast, but they were going to. And I straightened up. I grabbed the steering wheel in kind of like a cool kid way. And I thought, they're going to see how cool I am. And as they were passing, I kind of look over my left shoulder and kind of try to catch their eye. They didn't look in. They had no interest. They were doing their own thing. They were running their program. And here I was trying to look a certain way. And I thought to myself as a 16 year old kid, what are you doing? Like, what is that? You just did all of these weird machinations to look a certain way for somebody you didn't even know. And I was embarrassed by it. I knew that that

wasn't good. I knew it wasn't healthy. I knew it wasn't cool, but I didn't tell anyone about it because I was embarrassed. Fast forward 20 some years later, and I'm a sports psychologist working with some of the best in the world. They had it too. So I kept this thing private for a long time. And they didn't say that. They didn't say that they had this driving experience, but they were talking about, yeah, I don't want to look bad. I don't want to let people down. I don't want to blow it. I don't want to be the laughingstock. And so it was about the opinions of other people. So I was looking for favor from an opinion from someone I didn't know, and I was shape-shifting for that favor, for that acceptance. And they were talking about not being rejected.

Both, the tying thread between the two is the fear of people's opinions. So we had fun, we named it FOPO. And I wrote an article for HBR, and 12 months later after the article was published, and it was titled, Stop Worrying About What People Think of You. 12 months later they called and they said, you were the number one downloaded article

for 12 months in a row. You touched a nerve. Let's do a book. I thought, oh my God, I got to put science to this now. So I thought this was just this private thing that I was experiencing. And elite athletes,

because they're different in some kind of ways that they were experiencing it and come to find out, I think it's a thing that it's like the water that we're swimming in, this management of, am I okay in the eyes of others? Are you accepting me or are you rejecting me? And I'm playing a game to be liked and not rejected as opposed to playing the game of just being me and bringing my best self into whatever environment I'm in. So that second game is quite toxic.

I think it's the poison that so many of us are drinking and have drunk from a young age that this is just, I'm just ringing the bell saying, maybe we got to put the poison down. You know, I think this topic is so timely for so many reasons. We have done this show now for almost seven years. It's a long time now but i think congrats on like making the dent it's awesome thank you but we keep these early episodes up that are horrendous like they're disasters if people go and see them it's just like it's in our kitchen we're interrupting we don't know we're staying like we're saying like everything

it's just it's just it's just bad the quality is bad audio is bad but what we've said for years on this show over and over is like launch fast, adjust and just iterate with feedback. And what I've also said is you really can't worry all the time about what people think because if you're doing that all the time, you just never get to the point where you do something. And I know that Lauren and I are not liked and loved by everyone, only like 99% of people. Staring at yourself in the mirror in an elevator doesn't count. But my point is that I think anybody that's ever done anything successfully that I've met, it never started perfect. And they've got this little bit of like,

okay, I know it's not going to be the best. It's not going to be perfect, but they're just going to keep iterating. And I've also met so many smart people that are much more intelligent than myself that just they fail to put themselves out there. And you're like, man, that's such wasted potential because if they did, they would probably go so far, but they have this fear of just like, maybe if it's their parents or their friends or their spouse, they're so worried about what people think they never execute. Yeah. I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of human potential. I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of human potential. I think it's the thing that tightens us up.

It helps us be small, be safe, belong, but it doesn't allow us to get into the amphitheater and really express ourselves and go for it. The good life is marked by really going for it. And FOPO, fear of people's opinions will keep you safe and it'll keep you connected, but the cost is really high. And so apparently this is something that so many of us have. And I think it leads to, it's part of anxiety and depression, addictions. It's a bit of the undercurrent that's happening for so many of us. And there's good reason. 250,000 years ago, if we were kicked out of the tribe, let's say the three of us are in the same tribe and we were responsible for something

and we came back empty handed and we're kind of disruptive when we're doing it. Like we're causing, you know, we kicked over the fire, we're doing some nonsense and we came back empty handed and a bit of a disturbance to the vibe of the tribe. And the elders pull us aside and say, hey, listen, I'm giving you a warning. That's not okay now. Like, there's some rules here. There's a way that we do things and this is not it.

And we're, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Second time we come back and it's a similar type of thing. Maybe we get one more chance. On the third, we're kicked out. Now the three of us have to go hunt, gather, forge, fight, protect. We have to do it all.

And that was a near death sentence because it was too big, too hard. So that was the rejection from the tribe set this signal in our brain. Like, no, no, no. If you get rejected and you're out in the wild with just a couple of you, you're going to die early. So modern ancient brain, modern times, we've got that ancient brain is tuning to make sure that we're accepted and not rejected. And so the fear of rejection is a real deal. And we all know it. out, it has nothing political. I'm just interested in the foreshadowing of how he became president. I want to see what the mindset was in the 80s before all of this happened. And I also am interested in the art of the deal. I think coming from him, there's a lot to learn.

But he does not give a shit what people think about him. He doesn't give a shit in the 80s. He has in the book a bravado and a delusion when it comes to the way he writes. But he became president of the United States. Is he someone that you would look at as a high performer that doesn't care what people think? Yeah. So this book is not written for sociopaths, narcissists, you know,

like it's wild to get, to get in his brain. It's like, just like to just read it. Like guys, nothing political. It's just interesting. A hundred percent.

And I don't know him. I can't do an armchair thing. I have too much respect for it, but sorry, Donald. Yeah. But narcissists and sociopaths don't care. Literally.

They do not care. This book is, is not written for them. Got it. So he, so he would be classified because of the bravado and the not giving a shit. What you're saying is this book is written for people that really care and getting them to understand what caring so much does in terms of holding them back or slowing their pace or- Yeah. I think this book is written for... David Foster Wallace, great writer. He says he's got

this story about two fish or the fish, the old fish and two young fish, and they're swimming in opposite directions. And the old fish, as he's passing the two young fish, says, morning boys, how's the water? And the two young fish don't know exactly what to make of that. And so they swim along privately for a little bit. And then one of them bravely says to the other one, what's water? So the old elder is pointing out the most obvious thing in their life, which is we're

swimming in water. So I think what's taking place is this book is for folks that are swimming in the water of modern times, which is mattering, belonging, being part of something, fearful of being rejected by them, whoever them is, conforming and contorting to be accepted and be liked. It's the modern water that we're drinking in or that we're drinking that's a bit poisonous. So I think this is for the healthy, for the normal, for the ones that are trying to find their way, that there's something. You could go do all of the ayahuasca. You could go do all of the modern practice. You get your ass in a cold tub and do all these kind of bio whatever's. But until you put down the poison, you'll never be really healthy.

And the poison that I'm pointing to here is that we've got this obsessive need to belong and to know we matter. And we're outsourcing that to other people. So I think this book is for me. It's for my parents. It's for my friends. It's for the world-class athletes. Maybe it's for you guys, but you guys seem to be doing pretty well in life. I'll tell a personal story. I had a father growing up. I still have a dad. He's still alive. And this guy just was insane. He would go and say the most outlandish things, just inappropriate, you know, inappropriate,

out of control, like walk into places. You're like, you look at a guy, I can't believe you get away. But he would do it in a way where it was endearing and people would like laugh and love him for it. But it's just like, most people would be like, holy shit, I can't believe this guy said or did these things. Did you marry your father? And my mom, my mom. We tend to.

My mother, no offense, mom, was maybe on the opposite side. She was half Japanese, a little bit more like, hey, you know, got to do good in school, a little bit more worried about what people think, maybe not so much anymore. But I remember seeing these two examples and I probably fall in between that a little bit. But what I realized quickly is that even though my dad would do all these crazy things, people weren't so offended that they didn't really care because they were more worried about themselves in that setting than what he was actually doing. So what I realized quickly, I was like, okay, even if he's doing all these crazy outlandish things, people were so worried about themselves that they didn't have time to think about that characteristic of him.

It sounds like you're really aware of what's dubbed the spotlight effect. There's research around what you're talking about. And Professor Gilovich from Cornell did a research project and he took about a hundred students, put them in an auditorium or a classroom. And then he took a handful of other students and he wanted to understand the experience when the handful of students would walk into this larger auditorium with 100 or so folks if they were wearing a really ugly t-shirt. And so it was a t-shirt of Barry Manilow on it. And the kids would be like, the kids, the 19-year-olds would be like, you want me to walk in there with this thing on? Oh my God. Are you serious? That's what you want me to do? You want me to walk in front of the class? All right. And then so the professor Gilovich asked, how many people do you think are

going to notice what you're wearing? And it was this radical number of a percentage. Come to find out less than half of the estimate actually noticed the other person, even when they were wearing the most ugliest shirt they can imagine. So we dubbed it the spotlight effect, which is in essence, I've got a spotlight on me. You've got one on you. You have one on you. And you're thinking about your hair and the clothes you're wearing. And I'm thinking about my hair and the clothes I'm wearing when actually we're not really tuning to each other.

We're tuning more into our own experience, which is thought to be one of the core seats of suffering is when you're self-focused in such a way that you're not able to see or feel or connect with another person because you're just trying to take care of yourself. And so it's not until you can damp that down and recognize like, get me out of my fucking spotlight. Like this is too much now. And so there's a bunch of ways that we talk about how to do that in the book. Well, I guess the lesson from that, I didn't know it was called that, but for me was, and I think it helped me, was realizing that, okay, even if you go and mess up or you have a failure or anything, people really aren't paying that much attention to your

thing. They're paying attention to their thing. And so in my personal- That's cool. That's a great, healthy insight. Say even if it went for pursuing a woman. Sure. My dad also, you go up and you talk to eight women, you get denied by seven of them. They're not all being like, this guy got denied by every... You just need the one to say yes. And that sounds kind of crazy, but it got me into a place where I'm like, nobody really is paying that much attention to your failures or even thinking about it or talking about it because they're all worried mostly about themselves and their own issues. And so this is where if we study the good life, and Harvard did an 80-year study about this, and it was really cool.

Two of the main themes of the good life is one, we have relationships that matter. Two, there's a sense of purpose. So those two things fall into place. And so to ring a second bell here is when you know your purpose. So in that case, it was like a little mini mission of meeting a female, right? But when you know your big purpose in life, you are less interested in their opinion of you and more interested in the compelling future that you're trying to work towards. So this is one of the things that athletes and professional sport teams and even some modern businesses, but let's just stick with athletics for a minute, is the purpose is

very clear. The mission is given to them. And so they fold in like your mission here is to whatever on Sunday in the NFL. The greater purpose of what we're trying to do is, and it's given to them. And one of the really difficult experiences post-career is that they're a bit purposeless, missionless. And so there's a floundering that takes place. And we know that 87% or more, two years after retiring or getting kicked out from the NFL or any sport league. They're broke, divorced, a bit of a mess. And so there's real suffering that happens when you don't have purpose, when you're kind of out of the fray of a collective approach. Your point is well taken.

When there's something that you're really getting after, it's so much easier and it damps down that, am I okay? Yeah. I mean, the point of this podcast in the beginning is we wanted to get to a certain number of podcasts. And because we had that number, am I okay? Yeah. I mean, the point of this podcast in the beginning is we wanted to get to a certain number of podcasts. And because we had that number, of course, we want to take feedback and improve. But I can't have one person say we suck on episode one and then quit. We're like, hey, wait, if our number is 100, we're just going to keep going until we get to that 100.

And the feedback's relevant, but also kind of irrelevant. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the subtitle of the book is not stop caring about what people think. Caring about some people's opinions is really important and it's incredibly healthy. This book is about not worrying. So that's an important distinction. And then it begs the question like, well, whose opinions should I care about? Like whose opinions matter to me? And I just have a round table of eight people. And to have a seat at that table, two things have to happen.

One, you have to know my scars. You have to have time under tension to invest in knowing my ambitions, my dreams, my traumas, to really understand me. Because when I ask you, what do you think? It needs to be in context. Not something that's serving you, not something out of context to my way that I've lived my life, but something that's really tuned that is meaningful. And the second criteria is like, they have had done something in their life.

Like really, you could be the best parent in the world, but you've really done something. It doesn't mean that anyone knows what you've done, but you've done something. You've gotten your ass into the amphitheater. You put your ass on the line. You stood for something and you know what it feels like to go for it. Those are the two criteria to have a seat at the table for me. I love that. You said earlier something about something is a core struggle. What is a core struggle for people? I don't know how I said that in context, but many of us, the foundational thing is, do I matter? And that's a core struggle. Another core struggle is not knowing how to organize your inner life so that you can be

fully present. So we've got this radical, powerful machinery of a brain. It's 3.2 pounds of tissue that sits in our skull and call that the hardware. And then we've got software, which is our mind. And the brain is so powerful, 250,000 to a million years ago, the beginnings of that thing was formed, pass on to us today. And its primary dictum is survival. That's kind of it. Scan the world, find the danger. And without having to think about it, fight, flight, freeze, run, do your thing. I call it when Michael does it every second. I'm like, there's no saber tooth.

There's no saber tooth. But that could be your next book. Well, there might be. There might be. Real or perceived danger, our body responds the same way. And so the mind is the software. And when you invest in the software and you upgrade the software and you kind of get out the patchy bugs that your parents passed on to you and your neighborhood friends and whatever

magazine that you listen to or a famous person that you were informed by, you got to get those buggy patches out and do real work from the inside out. You have the ability to be in the present moment more often and feel a certain way about being safe here. That is one of the great unlocks for us, spending more time in the present moment. How do you get the patchy spots out? Well, there's three ways that I would point to. One would be conversations with people of wisdom. So you're working out who you are. You're understanding the wisdoms that they hold. So that could be a psychologist.

It could be a coach. It could be your neighborhood pastor or whatever, like wisdom. The second is meditation. And the third is journaling. And that essentially is leading you to work from the inside out. And then I could give you a laundry list of practices like you can practice being confident. You can practice being more calm. You can practice being optimistic. You can practice trusting yourself. There's a whole set of skills that sit underneath

that great athletes have demonstrated enough of a weight to it that we've studied it for the last 60 years. And those skills can be built and developed for all of us. Meditation, that's exactly what it does for me. I've never heard someone articulate it like that. It gets out the patchy spots so I can be clear and have clarity for my day. What does your practice look like? I try to meditate to Joe Dispenza 24 minutes every morning. And if I can get that in it's a different

way if i can't get it in i have a life hack i it's me go hide somewhere until she gets it i take my son on a walk and i do a walking meditation while he's in his stroller that's cool it's 16 minutes and i'm outside in nature. I'm not on my phone. It's just I'm listening to it. And I did this morning and it works. The 24 minute one is like I'm going to be like really great. The 16 minute is like I'm going to be OK. But whatever it is, just to be quiet and just be like, what does my day look like? What does my week look like? What does my year look like? How am I showing up? Am I being a good mom? Am I being a good, not wife is usually, am I being present in my business? But that's what it does for me. It almost like

gets rid of the patchy spots. Yeah. The essence of meditation is to become more aware. That's really what meditation is about, is increasing awareness. And it's like when you work to get quiet at some level, you'll start to feel something. And then if you can just notice where that feeling lives in you, what it feels like, where it wants to go or move, and you were just to follow that feeling, you become exponentially more tuned to your emotional self. So there's thousands of meditations. The one you described is one and there's a thousand others. But the seat of the whole thing is just to become more aware of your thoughts,

your feelings, your emotions, and the world around you. And with greater awareness, you're able to guide just a little bit better the way you want to live your life. Do you have a meditation practice? I'm going to guess you do. Oh yeah. I've been practicing for like 25 years. What do you do? Yeah. So there's two basic types of meditation. I'll give you some details, but the first is a single point meditation and the other one is called a contemplative meditation. So a single point meditation is, this is how my first teacher introduced it to me like 20 some years

ago. And he says, I want you to focus on your inhale and your exhale as if a loved one's life depends on you getting it right. And that's like, Ooh, that's pretty intense. And so it's meant to have like a sharp stick in your back, like get this shit right. And that was the way I was first introduced to it. And that's not easy to have that type of deep focus. And what ends up taking place is nanosecond breath number one, my mind is shooting out. Did I do it right? Am I doing it right? Is someone going to die? No, no one's going to die. Wait, hold on. What am I doing? I'm thinking, come back to my breath. That's my only job. What is wrong with you? Maybe you can't meditate. Jeez. So that

kind of inner narrative is the content of your mind. But your job during meditation for single point is to say hello to the noise and come back to the signal. And the signal in this case is maybe your exhale. And then with all of your essence, with all of your might, focus on the exhale. And then focus on the inhale. And your mind is going to wander a thousand times in two minutes. And your job is just to gently refocus over and over and over again. So what's your ideal day? Do you do it in the morning? Do you do it at night?

Do you do it every single day? Do you miss a day? Do you do TM? What do you do? So the early, when I spent a lot of time, early days in it, it was a 20-minute practice. I'd like to say seven days a week, but of course, days were missed. And now I'm a little bit more patchy with it. So every day I commit to doing something, but sometimes it's only one breath.

And so it starts in the morning for me. And the reason the morning is so important is because it sets up my awareness. And it also, there's a bit of a glow, right? There's like this glow that happens when you're tuned. And so I don't want to have that glow as I'm falling asleep. I want to have that glow about the way that I'm experiencing myself in life early in the day rather than late. And so I do it first thing in the morning.

Sometimes I do it, it's like before I get out of bed. And so I'm just laying down and my morning. Sometimes I do it, it's like before I get out of bed. And so I'm just laying down. And my commitment there is to not fall back asleep, but to just focus on one breath at a time. And when my mind wanders, I notice what's pulling my attention. And then I gently bring it back. That's single point meditation. So I make a commitment to do something every day.

Sometimes it's 20. Sometimes it's one breath. You said single point. And what's the other one called? Contemplation. Contemplation. And that's different than what you just explained. In structure it is. So the single point could be your inhale and exhale. It's just the one thing. It could be the sounds in your environment. It could be a mantra that you're saying. It could be the flickering Kung Fu candle on the wall. It's just one thing okay and the reason that that is single point is because it creates a bit of a contrast between the one thing and the noise that's pulling

your attention from the one thing so it's like this thing it just gives you like a focal point yeah yeah but the focal point you are training refocus but it's giving you a moment to recognize like whoa my mind is somewhere else. You got it away from the thing. Yeah, that's exactly it. So contemplative meditation. Oh, let me finish a simple point or a single point. It helps you live in the present moment more often. And that's where the unlocks happen. That's where truth is experienced. That's where insights happen. Oh, that's how this works. And that's where wisdom is revealed.

The more time that we spend in the present moment, the better at life we're going to be, period, full stop. And you can train your mind to be in the present moment more often. Contemplative is another way to do it. So I can't believe we're talking this much about meditation, but it is awesome. Contemplative meditation is where you have a thought stem or a question. So you take a couple of breaths, you settle in, you just kind of get into your body, quiet, close all the mental files of your mind. There's lots of ways to do that, of course. And then you'll start with a thought stem or a question. A thought stem or question could be, who am I? And then you just

watch. Where do you go? Where's your mind going? Which one are you more drawn to? Probably the single point. I'm just starting to practice. Are you? When I've been in and out for a while, but now for the last two weeks, I've done it pretty much every morning. If you are a business owner, I have something that you need to know about. Custom merch, an online store, asset library, extensions, email campaigns, basically all the things

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to be using this all the time. I want to make sure it's a great hair serum. I never had thought of a hair serum for my hair until I started interviewing a lot of celebrity hairstylists. And they were like, Lauren, you have to try this with scalp massage. It's a game changer. Elevate your hair wellness routine this year with Vegamore. For a limited time, get 20% off your first subscription order by going to vegamore.com slash skinny and use code skinny at checkout. That's V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R.com slash skinny code skinny. You save 20% off your first order. V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R.com slash skinny code skinny. When someone is such a high performer and they want to perform in the major leagues, what are tools that you can give them to help them do that?

There's plenty. The commitment is to work from the inside out. So we're going to talk about internal skills, right? We're going to talk about psychological skills. So the first practice that we're talking about is increasing awareness. Again, there's three ways to increase awareness, meditation, journaling, and conversations with wisdom. So it begins and ends with wisdom, or I'm sorry, it begins and ends with awareness. If you're not

aware of your thoughts, if you're not aware of kind of how thought one and thought two work to create emotion A or emotion B, you're just a grinder. You're grinding. That's cool. I got you here. I'm not saying you, Michael, but like it got us here. There's a better way. And so it begins with awareness. Once you're aware, then you can make some micro choices.

And those micro choices are really about what thoughts am I going to have? How does this thought influence that emotion, my state of being? And so with awareness, you can make micro choices. So the second thing I would point to after awareness training is arousal regulation. The arousal regulation is really about managing your internal state. Breath work is what we point to. I thought you were going to say something else. I knew both of you were going there quickly. Okay, I'm like, what's that? I don't call arousal regulation to my 14-year-old son.

15-year-old son. I think Taylor's not here. Yeah, so arousal regulation, the technical term for arousal, we think of it like body activation, like how switched on is your body. And for most people, a way to think about it, if you're going to walk on stage and you think about a scale of 1 to 10, walking on stage is pretty nerve-wracking for most people, a way to think about it, if you're going to walk on stage and you think about a scale of one to 10, walking on stage is pretty nerve wracking for most people. So that's like a nine on a scale of one to 10 is like, I'm about to throw up.

I think I just threw up in my mouth. I'm not like, I'm a mess. A 10 is like a full blown, like I'm a disaster. Can't do it. Yeah. A two is like yawning, like, God, what am I doing? This is so boring. And a five is that sweet spot. So it's like the porridge is too cold too hot and just right so four five and six is kind of the state

that helps us be in an ideal performance or ideal competitive state so five on that activation scale is your unique sweet spot and so if you're too high on the scale, like you're revved up, anxious, you're feeling your body, the first bit is to be aware of what's my number, let's say. Oh, I'm at an eight. I'm glad I caught it. So how do you go from an eight to a seven? That's an easy question.

You become aware that you're at an eight? That's the first step. The second step is? Maybe breath? Yeah, see? We all kind of know this. you're at an eight that's the first step the second step is maybe breath yeah see we all we all kind of know this and so the more you practice breathing the more powerful that tool is so if you're unpracticed at breathing and you really want to get down to a five it might take you a while but if you're very practiced at it and over time one or two breaths really kind of get you into that slipstream of being relaxed.

Like when you need it, when you're a bit wonky, then a couple breaths will be more powerful. So that's one way. It's a down regulation practice breathing. And it's a way to become just a bit more calm when you'd like to. It's interesting you say that because I talked about it again on the show. I used to be terrified of speaking in public and now not at all what changed well i think doing this show and just getting practice and even though it's not in front of a live audience help but i i think also speaking on stage and doing it more and more but even now like once in a while when i go on as we just uh recently spoke at a school and you get

like little tinge like oh i'm feeling a little nervous it's just breathing a couple times and i'm completely normal yeah so but your body's supposed to key up when something important it's supposed to tell you like hey this is a time to kind of like turn on like we need to have all of our faculty or this is important this matters so it's a really good skill it's just knowing like what what number would you say you are on that one to ten scale honestly i mean lauren might be tell me more i think before i used to edge on the seven, eight, and then maybe sometimes if I was low energy, it'd be like three, four. I think I'm probably like a six now. I feel a little hyper, but also, yeah, I mean, what do you think?

Yeah, I think that's about right. Yeah, but again, it took a while. It didn't just happen. I had to practice a lot at it. So that's the grinder approach? Cool. There's only three things we can train as humans. We can train our craft, the technical thing we want to get better at. We can train our body, like our carriage. And we can train our mind. And the best of the best of the best, they're not leaving one of those, certainly the mind, up to chance.

So you grinded. You did rep and rep and rep and rep. And you figured it out kind of by force. And what I hope for my son and the next generation is that we're doing such a good job of now pointing to the mind matters and psychology's foundationally important we're not doing a great job we're doing better than the previous generation did better than you know the the boomers and whatever they hit it well my advice that i got back then was like just get your ass up there and do it. I'm like, I don't think that was the best advice.

I mean, that's the grinder approach, right? It's like. Yeah, there is like, I mean, true. You got to get back up there and do it. But like how? Yeah, I mean, there's no how. Yeah. So the worst thing is like,

I don't know if you remember as a kid when, or even like, I don't know, as an adult where someone says, hey, you okay? Just relax. You're okay. You'll be fine. Just, I see, I see you. You're nervous. You're a mess is what they're saying. When they say, hey, just relax. Just relax. You're okay. You'll be fine. I see you. You're nervous. You're a mess is what they're saying when they say, hey, just relax. It's going to be okay.

Just get over it. Stop bothering me. How do you want me to do that? I do that all the time, do you? Yeah. Yeah, all the time. I'm like, just relax. It's fine. It's fine. Does that work for you, Michael? No, of course not. I mean, it doesn't work for anybody. I'm the meme that's sitting in the fire everywhere. And I'm just like, it's fine.

I say in a strange, I mean, I think to your point, the previous generation, it's like there was no feelings discussed. And if there were, it was like, you need water. What are you talking about? Get back out there. Exactly. And I think we're maybe sitting in between those generations now where we're the first ones are kind of like hey but i think the generations below us like hopefully they don't have to struggle as much because people are talking more and sharing more i mean

even the amount of mental health conversations we've had on the show and i'm sure that you've had on yours like those like go back 20 years they weren't happening abundantly like this no it was it was embarrassing to talk about because of the stigma about weakness. I have a friend that is always telling himself that he's not confident. And with everything he touches, he doesn't bring a confidence because he's told himself he's not confident. Is confidence, because you mentioned this earlier, something you can teach. You said earlier, you could teach it, but how do you do that? What are the tools that I can give him as a friend? Because I think for me, number one, it's like, stop telling yourself you're not confident.

If I'm not something, I tell myself I am. So does that work? Is that just like I'm being delusional? No. Okay. So confidence is a trainable skill. It's at the cornerstone of being great at anything is understanding how to get into that state. So confidence is a state of being. It's temporary. It's fleeting.

It moves quickly. It's determined by one source and one source only but it is so temporary that we're constantly having to reconnect to it so when i ask you where do you think it comes from most people well i'll ask where do you think it comes from i think it comes from keeping the commitments that you make to yourself and seeing them through whether you fall short or not i think that's what it is like say that's cool i mean i don't know if that's fully but for me like From keeping the commitments that you make to yourself and seeing them through, whether you fall short or not. I think that's what it is. Like say.

That's cool. I mean, I don't know if that's fully it, but for me, like I'm confident even if I fall short of something, as long as I have committed to see that thing through to the best of my ability. I agree with you. And I think that's how you maintain it. But now that I've analyzed it, I actually think it comes from your parents. A lot of people say that. I think both of you are onto something.

One is your parents were informing your sense of self. They had a lot of work to do that was going on. I don't know how good your parents were, but mine did not have an advanced degree in parenting. They were trying their very best. There's a lot of programming that happens at a young age about your sense of self, about the world around you. They're basically installing or building your psychological framework. Okay. That's cool. So it's influenced by them. It's influenced by the work you put in, the promises you make, but ultimately it comes down. It's not past success. It's not hard work. What it ultimately arrives at is the way you speak to yourself.

It's self-talk. So it's like my favorite Louise Hay. You're on it. I was going to say something, but I didn't want to sound like a full psychopath. The way you speak to yourself in your head. Did you have fun? But the way that I speak to myself in my head is like, of course, that's going to happen for me.

And of course, I'm going to get a girl like Lauren. And of course, I'm going to get a girl like Lauren. And of course, I'm going to be able to speak. And I know it sounds psychotic sometimes when you say it out loud and people say sometimes it's a little bit of arrogance. But what I've always told myself and people around me is if I don't speak to myself like that in my head, nobody else is going to. And I have to speak to that way myself or else I'm not going to do the things that I really believe I can do. Does that make sense? And I know that some people feel uncomfortable saying that out loud because it makes them feel egotistical or arrogant, but I just know if I

don't do it for me, nobody else is going to do it for me. So you're a thousand percent right. Now, when you get down to the art of what you actually say to yourself, it must rest on credibility. Sure. Okay. So we know when we're lying and when we're lying to ourselves or like saying something that we don't really believe, we know that as soon as we get chin checked and somebody kind of pokes at us in a way that it's like the Easter egg bunny that that's hollow on the inside you poke it and it kind of falls apart yeah like i can't look in

the mirror and be like i am six five you cannot do that but do you also think it rests on what you said earlier do you i think it also rests on awareness of thought like well that's where the whole thing begins like for him to even be aware of the thoughts that he has. That's why awareness is step one. Sometimes like when you're meditating, it's so amazing to be able to look at the thoughts that pass. I'll give you a perfect example. I've in my career, and this happens to anyone, if you're going to be, you're going to do anything in life,

like there's going to be failures, micro failures. And I don't believe it's a true failure unless you fully actually quit and give up and stop. But in my life, I have had failures and business failures. And there's been moments when people in my personal life have wanted me to fully acknowledge and wallow in the failure. My resistance to doing that has irritated people. But what I tell them is if I start to tell myself I'm a failure and I start to say, you know what? You're right. I can't do that. And I shouldn't have done that.

Even though it's like, I can admit there was a mistake, but if I sit in the place of telling myself I'm a failure over and over, then in my mind, that's what I will become. So what I do instead is I say, that was a mistake and you can correct that mistake, but you are still meant for this type of greatness if you do X, Y, and Z.

And like, that's how I think about it. Yeah, so there's, this is the rite of passage to adulthood is to know how to work with your own thoughts. And we'll just say it one more time. It begins with awareness. You need to know what the content of your mind is about and then have the most productive type of relationship with yourself that is based in reality. And so the exercise that we'll do with athletes is we'll ask them, it's like a, just imagine a line down the piece of paper. And so you got a left and right half. And then on the left-hand side, it is your epic thought. So a thought that you say to yourself that feels really good. Like when you say it,

you feel like a badass or whatever the feeling that you want to have. Epic meaning amazing, right? So what is your epic thought? And then to the right of that, you'll have an A, B, and C. So I'll tell you the story of where this comes from, but A, B, and C are three things that you've experienced in your life that give you the right to say that epic thing. Now that epic thing puts you in a state and that state is like, I can do some shit here. I'll give you a concrete example. I'll tell you a story is the concrete example of like, okay, Mike, what is one of your epic thoughts?

I can do hard things. Now I've got three things that I can point to right at the underneath the surface that I've honestly earned the right to say, no, bring it. I can do hard things. And I've got a couple more that really work for me. Nobody else has to vie with it. It has to work for me. So I'm sitting, I spent a bunch of time helping fighters in the UFC. This was early in the UFC. And I'm in a small little office. It was early in my career. And it was a championship fight, and this guy's got tattoos crawling up his neck,

his shoulders are popping out of his ears, and a bald head, and he's got the entire look that you would imagine. I said, what's it like when you're at your best? He goes, there's nothing. I go, right. Like he's talking about flow or the zone or whatever. I said, when you're really working and you're in a really powerful state, what's going on

inside your head? He goes, oh, that's pretty simple. I'm a tough motherfucker. And so I didn't want to be like, that's cool. I said, can you back that up? And he looks at me and he says, yeah, I was in an end game position. I broke the choke hold, put them on my back, walked them across the cage, dumped them and finished them. Like I'm a tough motherfucker.

So unimpressed, I said, you got anything else? He leans in like kind of frowning a little bit. He goes, I whooped my dad's ass when I was 14. I'm telling you, I'm a tough motherfucker. I said, I tried my luck one more time. I said, all right, anything else? He goes, if someone were to ask me one more question, I just might choke them out. I said, gotcha. So that's where this science meets application is that he could quickly back it up. And get to that place. I'm a tough motherfucker because bang, bang, bang. And as he was saying it, he was reliving the stories, he was chin checking me right there. I don't want to go any further. What's your problem, dude? You're not seeing it because I'm believing it right now. So the way we speak to ourselves,

the way we remind ourselves of what we're capable of shows up in the feeling that gets expressed from it. So confidence is not arrogance. That's like, I got to show you something. Confidence is this knowing that you have what it takes to adjust. Going to your book, I think a lot of people would feel uncomfortable saying some of these things and saying like how they, like, for example, if I say that I talk to myself, like I'm the greatest person in the world, like a lot of people like, oh, that sounds very arrogant. And there, but I'm saying it because it's for the benefit of my personal psyche, as well as like the people that I care about in my life. But also I've gotten to a place where

I hope people don't think that arrogance about me, but at the same time, I cannot worry about it if they do. And I think that's the whole core of this. And when you were talking, I was thinking so many of the people that we interact with and we talk with, we get all these questions like, I want to do this, but I'm this or I'm that. If you were going to work with, say, Jim, and Jim has ambition to launch an online business, but it requires them to put themselves out there and do something that is maybe going to make their family say, what's Jim doing? Or their girlfriend be like, why would he do that? And the friends say, that's strange. How do you coach somebody to get to the point where they care what people are thinking about them, but at the same

time, they're not worried and they can actually take the steps to go out there and execute? It takes time. The software upgrade that we're talking about does take time. So there's no silver bullets. There's no hacks. There's no hacks there's no shortcuts what we need to do is understand how much how much does he really want this thing and if the purpose of that is bigger than the pain of perceived failure then the purpose can win and if the perceived pain like the embarrassment of blowing it or spending all the family money or whatever it is is bigger than the purpose then pain wins so it's first just understanding what's happening. And then from that, there's fundamental decisions that need to be made. And so the fundamental decision is I'm

going to approach success versus avoid failure. So we understand what's happening and then which direction, and then is it an honest decision that you're making to approach success? What does success look like? Okay, got it clear. And what's getting in the way? And then so we untangle that and then awareness, we're going to train the skill of optimism. I haven't met a world's best that isn't fundamentally optimistic. And then as soon as I bring up that word into like corporate environments or business environments, everyone kind of rolls their eyes like, oh, here we go. We're going to talk about being positive and holding hands and like the wheels are falling off, but we're okay. That's not what optimism is. Optimism is a fundamental belief. We're going to figure this out. Something good is about to take place. Let's figure this thing out. Optimism too is also being resourceful. If someone says no, no, no, no, no,

an optimist finds a yes. 100%. It's a belief. It's going to work. It's not just positive, positive. It's about figuring it out. Yeah. Positivity is like, I don't even like to say positive talk, positive self-talk. Positivity is having a moment of toxic positivity that we talk about. But there's something really buoyant about finding what's good. There's something very energetic about seeing the good in things. But naive positivity and naive optimism are very dangerous. Oh, talk about that.

Naive optimism. So optimism is a belief that something good is going to take place. Okay. And let's say we're doing a business venture. And every time that we go out and to go do something, I drop the ball. And you guys are optimistic. Like, Mike, you're going to figure it out. It's okay.

You're going to figure it out. Like something good is going to happen here. Like this is going to work out. Let's keep going. But you don't see me trying to fix it. You don't see me investing in like learning and I'm doing the same shit over and over again. It's like staying in a abusive relationship, believing that the other person's going to change, but they're not doing the work. They're not going to see a psychologist. They're not, they're just using words to say, I'll be different later and not doing actions. So naive optimism is very, very dangerous. Self-talk. If someone thinks every single

morning when they wake up, oh, I'm so fat. I'm such a loser. How would you coach them to rejig that? Is it working? Let's say it's not working. Let's just guess. It probably ever can't work. Let's guess. Yeah, right. So the output of that is they're feeling, I don't know, kind of shitty about themselves.

Yeah, let's say they're feeling shitty and the self-talk is negative, negative, negative. Yeah. And I mean, do they want to change? Let's say they do. Yeah. So the first order of business is like, well, how would you like to speak to yourself? When have you spoken to yourself that led you to feel a certain way where you felt powerful or buoyant? So here's my orientation that I'm working from.

You already have your answers. They're already in you. Everything you need is already inside you. I don't have them. I need to figure out, ask the right questions to elicit like, when has it been good for you? How did you speak to yourself then? Oh, was it easy?

Was it hard? Like what happened that you don't speak to yourself that way anymore? So it's already in them. And so it's just eliciting that insight and wisdom and helping them make a commitment to do it more often. And also the things you're talking about, meditation and sitting in silence is free. Breath work is free. That's right.

These are all things that anyone has the tool to do. And all of them help us live in the present moment more often, which is where the great unlocks. It's where performance and connection and relationships and wisdom is revealed. It's about getting to the present moment. Again, that's where life happens. You can train your mind to be more present. Are there any red flags when you talk to people where you're like, oh, this person can't be helped? Don't lie. Tell the truth. He's like, well, your husband just said. Yeah. Like almost like a hopelessness with the coaching situation.

People pleasers. Okay. It's really hard to break. They're not playing an honest game. Well, I think that they're addicted to pleasing people because it makes them feel needed. That's right. Are you talking about yourself? I don't think I'm a people pleaser.

Sometimes. Did you see the frown, Michael? Yeah. You think I'm a people pleaser? I think sometimes. That's an interesting thing. I think sometimes you don't like I'm a people pleaser. Sometimes. Did you see the frown, Michael? Yeah. You think I'm a people pleaser? I think sometimes. That's an interesting thing. I think sometimes you don't like to rock the boat. Yeah, I would say that I don't die for confrontation, but I don't think I'm a people pleaser.

I don't think that's the right category to put me in. Codependence. You think I people please you? Not me. I'm not going to go laugh on my ass for two hours straight. I fall out. No, no. I think maybe people pleasing is not the right for two hours straight. I fall out. No, no. I think maybe people pleasing is not the right word.

That's not the right word. Let's just say sometimes you would rather keep people comfortable and happy than rocking the boat. I like to finesse the experience. I like it to be a positive experience. That slows down the process of growth. Ugh. Yeah. Here we go.

We're not going to say people pleasing. Let's open the candle. Pull that clip, Carson. Just pull the video clip. Yeah. Well, okay. What? That's right. That is… I would say I'm not the most confrontational person. I do know what I like and say what I like. No, I'll give you an example. But I would say I'm not the most confrontational.

She… Let's say that she, like somebody's in her life. Careful, someone might be listening. Somebody's in her life that is maybe struggling in a certain area. Instead of telling that person exactly what she would, what she thinks, like what she would tell me, she would rather them feel comfortable and

not deal with that confrontation. And I, my feedback is you're not, you're better to not do that. You're not doing them any favors, I don't think. Do you want my thoughts on it? Yeah, yeah. Go, go. Rip me to shreds. No, I won't do that. But it's one of the great disservices. Because I'll tell you the principle to work from is that unfortunately, pain is why we change. Uncomfortableness is how we grow. So one of the great mistakes I can make as a psychologist is somebody comes in and they're in a state where they're feeling vulnerable and they're touching their pain.

They're even putting words to it and feeling it. We're in that place. And then I say, it's going to be okay. Right. So I'm taking away the time that they need under tension of pain to get to a place where they say, I'm not fucking doing this anymore. Like, you know what? What am I doing? And they need to get to that agitated state to say, I'm putting my foot in the ground metaphorically. What are we doing? Let's figure this thing out. So minimizing pain is one of the great codependent mechanisms.

And our job is to lovingly help people feel pain. And when I'm talking about pain, I'm talking about really emotional suffering. That's why we change. So if someone wants you to do something, let's say a friend wants you to do something and you don't want to do it, but you don't want to tell them you don't want to do it well that's actually there's probably some photo in there yeah i'm afraid of what they'll think of me if i say no ah what a what a round i'll leave you here for an hour or something yeah but to examine why you don't want to let somebody down why you don't want them to see you a certain way is a really good exercise okay like what well let's just answer before we go like why is that i don't like hurting people's feelings i i like to be someone so you value dishonesty more than more

than hurting people's feelings like that's the game yeah i think that i'm trying to put myself like as the hero and it's not that i'm trying to put myself like as the hero and it's not that i'm being heroic like if i'm calling myself out i'm like oh i don't like hurting people's feelings but you're right there's a dishonesty undertone yeah i know in our relationship and like in our business relationship as well like i would say our personal relationship in our business relationship lauren will sometimes like oh my like I am, I guess the quote unquote, the blunt one. But I, it's funny because it's super interesting on that. That is the dynamic that you guys hold because it doesn't feel that way on the other side of your relationship.

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Again, that's code skinny for 15% off when you purchase a starter kit or their new gel hand soap. I want to get to how can I really help you and be of service. I don't really, like, I'm not really interested in making you feel good through the process as much as I'm helping you come out the other side better. So that's where he's pointing to the people pleasing. Yeah. Oh, I see. People like to come to you, not for change, but they like to come to you because they feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. That must frustrate you when, like if it's an employee that, or someone that's working for you and you're hoping that they make some changes, but you're actually making them feel comfortable for you, not them. Yeah. But it's selfish if you really look under the hood,

isn't it? Isn't it crazy? Uh-huh. When you say it like that, I'm like, oh, that's me being selfish. Let's not pick on Lauren for too long. I think one of the... No, we can pick on me. No, but I'll just say as an overall commentary...

I love it. It's free therapy. Let's pick on me. Okay, doing a show for as long as we've done it in the times we've done it, which are interesting times if you're somebody

that puts yourself out and has a strong opinion that's been... I don't enough to tell anyone. It's been a lot of crazy years of people being, you know, maybe more sensitive than they have been in the past. I think that's a nice way of saying it. And we speak very bluntly and it's during a time when I think there are a lot of people like Lauren that are more interested in making people feel good than actually helping those people get through whatever issue is going on. And I think you see this massively across a lot of social platforms. I had to give a speech to this company and say, listen, we're a media company. Sometimes you're going to see and hear

things from channels on this network that you may disagree with or may not like. That is okay. It's okay to have those disagreements and grow from them. And what I noticed is a lot of people in the company at the time were just very uncomfortable with that fact. And the reason I mention all this is I'm not going to sit here and tell everybody all the time that everything they see is going to be butterflies and rainbows and it's going to make them feel good. It's just not realistic. And I think where we're getting into a dangerous place as a society is worrying more about how people feel all the time instead of actually helping them face reality and grow through things that are painful to them. Does that make sense? A thousand percent. I mean, you just hit

the practice of meditation on its head is getting to the truth of something. That's the whole thing is when you can spend enough time in the present moment, you figure out what the real nature of whatever it is that you're focusing on is about. And being comfortable, it's super agitating to meditate. It's hard to do. It's very simple to understand. And sometimes it's wonderful. Sometimes it's a silverware within myself. But until we have a relationship with doing hard things and getting to the truth of something, we are working for favor for other

people. So if you tell me, Lauren, something I really want to hear from you, and then I go, you're so amazing. And now you're like, yeah, great. This is good. So that is like what most of us are working for and from to just know we're okay. And it's this temporary relief that when somebody nods their head with big eyes and smiles that, oh, I'm okay. Maybe it's disingenuous. You're probably working from kindness. That's cool. That's really, it's a wonderful trait. We need more of it. You're probably working from kindness. That's cool. You know, that's really, it's a wonderful trait. We need more of it.

You're probably working from compassion. Like you really feel that the discomfort that they feel. And then maybe there's just one thing to practice, which is like, yeah, I'm going to work on being accurate and kind and honest. Can't you work from a place of kindness and compassion on the other side if you believe that giving the honest message is actually more kind and more compassionate? That's what he's saying. I think so. Yeah.

Oh, that's what you're saying. That's what he's saying. He's saying use kindness and compassion, but also use accuracy. It's the accuracy. I actually don't see it this way. I think it's the accuracy bit that is part of high performance coaching yeah you know that's really important and so yeah it's good this is a really good important conversation because we're all just trying to figure it out no i think it's good too

for the the listeners to hear that like no one's got it all figured out there's oh yeah everyone has everyone and you know this working with all different high performers, I know that they all probably have their thing. Yeah. We were talking about red flags and it got derailed onto people pleasing, but I didn't let you go on because we got derailed. What are other red flags when you're coaching people that you're like, that's a red flag. When people shape shift, you know, to the point of FOPO, like they're just not being honest. And you can tell that as soon as they hear, feel some pain, they bounce right back up. It's just, it's going to take too long to get the change. What do you mean? So as soon as like, say we're having, you can see, let's say we're having a conversation. There's, I'm asking you

questions about something and you're on the nerve and your lip shakes just a little bit, your eyes dart, your pupils change size, and I can see just a little bit of sweat on your brow or on your lip. And I say, hey, what's going on? Nothing. What do you mean? Well, I'm noticing, no, I'm good. Yeah, no.

So it's like when you're not being honest with your actual experience it just takes a long time and so safety is what most people are trying to work out is can I be safe right now and when people don't trust themselves or have low trust of other people it it takes a long time it was one of the mechanisms that I would use with the Seattle Seahawks for selection. And so I would support the GM and the scouts in helping find the right fits for the NFL team. And one of the first gates that I would have is, do they trust themselves? If it's low, forget about it.

Do they trust other people? If it's low, forget about it. Even if they're a crazy generational talent, they're going to be really disruptive and it's going to take a long time to build a relationship. And we just don't have that kind of time. So trust is one of the big ones. Before we go, if there's someone out there that has failure to launch,

they can't launch anything in their life because they're almost scared of becoming a high performer. So they get it right to the point where they have the idea formed, they're ready to go. And at the last minute, they're like, uh, like I've cold feet or they decide like, oh, that really, I'm not going to do that. They sabotage it. They just say, I'm going into something else because it's right in the moment where... They change their mind. Yeah. A lot of people that I talk to on a daily basis have excuses for why they can't launch something. So an example is, the internet's too saturated for me to do anything. Or I can't do this because I have kids. They create roadblocks so they can't launch.

Say someone's listening, they have a failure to launch. What would you tell them? Are you guys thinking of someone? Like, is there someone in your mind or you're just, this is a general thing. There's a few, but I think when,

why does it seem like I'm like profiling someone? Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. When we, when we speak a lot of the times you will see some people we see multiple times and some just like common themes of people that have a very well

formed idea and we've, they've talked and messaged and shared and they don't take that step and they don't take it in the arena it's like the thing like the thing is ready to go and then it's time to step in the arena and then they let calls cooling at your temperature down so like if like you'll say like you do something really great you'll cool your temperature back down to what you're used to to make yourself comfortable instead of putting yourself in the unknown and becoming it's almost like it's exciting to the point where it cannot fail but then when you're ready to go and if there's that chance it doesn't work it's a failure they've they quit before it can be a failure does that make sense because yeah 100% you're describing something that is really common and it's not it's i mean i think a lot of people

experience yeah to to your point about temperature high heat moments is where we really learn who we are. When you're at the edge of your capabilities and you're not sure how it's going to go, that's where you meet yourself. And so the failure to launch, it's not what I would say. It would be more of the questions I would ask. And so I'm much more interested in what they're carrying that's so heavy they can't take the next step i'm more interested in the framing that they're coming from of you know it does is it an excuse is it a reason and just understanding like if we played this

thing out five times how would you feel about it on the fifth time like how many more times do you need to get to the start line before you put your hand in the dirt and put your feet in the blocks i bet you 99 of them would say they're worried about what people think i think you're right which is why fuck you gotta buy his book as you were writing did you get to core issues or did you find reasons like i mean outside of the example you gave earlier about being booted out of the tribe like where people like what is the core reason why so many people care so much about what people think or worry so much about what people think there's the biological bit that we were talking about and then there we are so this is in context to modern times we are living in an obsessed world of performance like at an early age we're given grades and we're ranked and we're stacked.

And like that just kind of travels with us for most of our life. So it makes perfect sense that you would develop an identity that's called a performance-based identity. A performance-obsessed world creates humans that have an identity around their performance. So no longer I am who I am, but a performance-based identity is I am how well I do something. And so if I'm going to walk on stage or launch into something that could be a public failure, everything is on the line. Not just the performance, not just my attempt, but it's who I am. And so it's overwhelming.

And so in essence, what we need to help people get to is how to decouple who I am from what I do. And one of the ways to do that is to create, with great clarity, a purpose-based identity. So you're very clear about what the big purpose is as opposed to the small performance. Is there a worksheet or something that you have or a podcast that you can point to or is it in the book? Yeah, it's in the book. I talk about how to develop your purpose a lot on the Finding Mastery podcast.

So it's part of like kind of tier zero conversations. I'll give you a way to practice it because most people, I don't know what you guys think, but like most people that I know have a hard time imagining what their purpose could be. It feels too big. And that's because as a young kid, our elders are talking about performance as opposed to purpose. So we're unpracticed with the idea of purpose. So here's a way that you can begin to practice it. Today was my purpose. So you thin slice the activity. Like you can get your head around my purpose for today. And then you practice that enough.

You're practicing the skill of setting a purpose. And then you think like, what is my, okay, let me make it a little bigger. What is my purpose for this month? What is my purpose for this quarter? What's my purpose for this year? And then before you know it, like underneath what's happening is you're starting to tune to what could be my purpose for this year? And then before you know it, like underneath what's happening is

you're starting to tune to what could be my purpose. And there's three legs to purpose. Nobody can give it to you. It has to matter to you. That's a leg number one. Number two, it has to be bigger than you. Number three, it has to have a future orientation. So it's down the road. You can't solve it right now. So purpose, again, it matters. It has personal meaning. It's bigger than you. And it's time-bound in a way that it can't be solved right now.

Can I ask you something strange? But I think this could be applicable to a lot of people. The weirder, the better. Yeah. Could your big purpose be telling yourself that you're a great father? And let me give you an example. If my big purpose is my great father, and as a great father, what I do is take care of myself and stay in shape so I can pick up my kids. And as a great father, I run a successful business so that I can support my family.

And as a great father, I speak to my kids calmly and with love. Like if the, could that purpose, even though it's a small, could it be, could you attach things to that thing as characteristics to make it bigger than just saying like, I'm a good dad? You're on it. You're on it. I didn't hear the word wife. The purpose is to be a good dad.

Where's the word wife? I didn't hear the word wife. Okay. But I'm saying I was giving a father. Can we do that? No, but I was giving a father. But if you're, okay, so I'll give you another one. If you're saying I'm a great husband, then part of that would again be, I speak to my wife this way,

or I care for this way, or I take care of myself to stay in shape. Meaning I think sometimes people get overwhelmed and I've done this for sure, where they say their purpose is I've got to be the next Jeff Bezos. And that's just maybe so crazy. I got to be the next crazy performing athlete. But I think- I wouldn't call those purposes. Okay. So you- Yeah. So those sound like goals. And you're on the right path because you've got this idea and then the rest of your life is organizing to be about that idea. Yeah. Meaning I don't wake up and say, my purpose is not the business. So what's the work purpose? Or is that not a big enough purpose?

No. What I'm saying is if I package the purpose into say, I want to be a great father, all of the other stuff in my life kind of fits into that being able to support that bigger purpose because it's a future thing that I want to be able to look back in my life and say, oh, I did that thing well. And the other things serve that bigger thing, but it's not, it's not like I want to go and be an athlete or I want to go and be. Those are not purposes. And you're still kind of tuned to a goal. Like I want to be a great dad is more of a goal than a purpose. But the structure of what you have is working. So the structure is I've got this idea and I'm going to layer in how I organize my life for that idea. Be a great dad, fill in the blanks. But a purpose, so it matters

to you. There's a time horizon, meaning that you can't do it today. It's like it's the life of yourself or your son or daughters. But where it's not quite squaring is like it's bigger than me. It's about somebody else. But I would press to say, why be a great parent? Why be a great partner? What is the thing that sits on top of that so it could be the greater purpose be you're setting a few an example for future generations to model that behavior yeah and so you don't want someone to look back like if you are not those things then all of those other you're breaking the cycle of how your past family did things yeah anyways the reason i bring it up is i think sometimes when people hear about their

purpose they attach like a material or goal element to it. And I think sometimes that can be unhealthy and maybe derail people from finding their true purpose. You're on it. I would not square. It's easy to think about the difference between a goal and a purpose. In my mind, they're worlds apart. Sure. A goal is pretty transactional. A mission is like action oriented that is like, I'm going to go get that thing. A goal is like what will support the mission. But the bigger thing we're talking about is purpose. Like what is the deep why?

Like what is the thing that you are really committed to that is not transactional? So my purpose is to help people live in the present moment more often. That's it. And so how am I going to go about it? I'm going to use this beautiful science and art of psychology and the best practices of the best in the world and translate them for the rest of us. And that for me helps to create a rising tide where we are all better. So notice that's my purpose is to help people live in the present moment. What's my vision? It's kind of guiding the whole thing. It's a world where people are flourishing and I don't want to be Pollyannish about it at all, but the worlds that I'm in, I want to make an impact where we are better. And so my, my mission, not to be too

confusing here is one in five people in every environment I'm in. If I could reach one in five, I know that according to good science, we can create a critical mass. We can create some disruption. If we have one in five people that are about it, like really about being their very best or being better or adding to the center, now we can create a disruptive factor to be better. So I don't know if that, you might need to rewind some of that. No, that helped me a lot.

No, no, no. It helped a lot because I think sometimes people get the goal and the purpose confused and mixed up. Yeah. And it is, I would never get in the way if you say my purpose is to be a great parent. Epic. That is awesome. So I think though that when you do that, your grand purpose, you're excluding your bride. No, no. I was just using that as an example of could it be something like that? It could be. Absolutely. Yeah. Purposes do not have to do with yourself alone. It's either like better for another, better for the planet. It's better for others or animals. Those are kind of

the three things that hum around purpose. The first rule of mastery is stop worrying about what people think of you. I'm going to guess that the next time you'll be on this podcast, there'll be the second rule of mastery. Let's do it before that. Okay. Let's do it before that. You guys, I'm so excited for everyone to go buy this book.

Tell us where it's available, where they can find you, where they can stock you on Instagram, all the things. Thank you. I love the conversations with you guys. We always have fun. So thank you. You never know where it's going to go. Some rabbit holes. Findingmastery.com is the website. The Finding Mastery podcast is where I spend most of my time. And the book is sold everywhere. Local bookstores are really cool. And we've got a little assessment online. And if you want to see if you have FOPO,

you can go to the website and we've got a free assessment there as well. Cute, I'm going to do that. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, and I need you to sign my book. Love to. Michael, thank you for coming on the podcast. We appreciate you. Thank you.

Come back anytime, man. Thank you. We have launched a newsletter. Every single tip on this newsletter is applicable. It's a him and her newsletter. You get it weekly. Everything is stuff Michael and I have just been obsessed with, like all the things, anything from relationship tips to finance tips from Michael to how to be successful in your habits, all in one newsletter once a week. And also we do a monthly favorite roundup of all of our favorite products. All you have to do to sign up is go to

tscpodcast.com and subscribe and our newsletter will come straight to your inbox. Thanks so much for the support. I hope you love this episode with Michael.