The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - From Rock Bottom To Empire: Overcoming Burnout, Mental Health Battles, & Turning Set Backs Into Success Ft. Kevin Boehm

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

#960: Join us as we sit down with Kevin Boehm – James Beard Award–winning restaurateur and co-founder of Boka Restaurant Group, who has spent three decades opening more than 50 concepts throughout his career and building one of the most influential restaurant empires in the country. In this episode, Kevin gets brutally honest about the failures and setbacks that shaped his rise, mental health battles, and the personal hardships that forced him to evolve. He unpacks what it really takes to operate at a high level and shares actionable insights from his debut memoir, The Bottomless Cup.   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TheBossticks.com   To connect with Kevin Boehm click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   Head to our ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of the products mentioned in each episode.   Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone].   To learn more about Kevin Boehm visit https://www.thebottomlesscupbook.com.    Visit http://istandwithmypack.org to support I Stand With My Pack's (ISWMP) mission by donating or adopting. Every contribution helps!   This episode is sponsored by Squarespace Head to https://www.squarespace.com/skinny to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code skinny.   This episode is sponsored by Nutrafol For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit http://Nutrafol.com and enter promo code SKINNYHAIR.   This episode is sponsored by The RealReal Get $25 off your first purchase when you go to http://TheRealReal.com/skinny.   This episode is sponsored by Unreal Snacks Visit http://Unrealsnacks.com/SKINNY to get $2 off a bag of Unreal. Terms and conditions apply.   This episode is sponsored by Redken Shop now at Ulta and http://Ulta.com and see the fullness.   This episode is sponsored by Minnow Shop minnow's new apré-ski capsule collection at http://shopminnow.com and enter code MEETMINNOW15 at checkout to receive 15% off your first order.    This episode is sponsored by Xyzal Visit http://xyzal.com for more information. Produced by Dear Media

Welcome to the Bostics, starring Lauren Bostic and Michael Bostick. Together, they are the Bostics. Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Bostics. Today we have Kevin Bame on the show. He is a James Beard award-winning restaurant tour, has spent the past three decades opening more than 50 restaurants and building Boka Restaurant Group into one of the most celebrated hospitality companies in the country. Along his partner Rob Katz, he has launched over 40 acclaimed concepts,

earning Michelin Stars and numerous national awards. In 2019, the duo received the James Beard Award for Outstanding Restaurant Tours. And for those in Chicago, BAME is also the co-founder of Bian. I hope I said that right, Kevin. A 40,000 square foot, one-of-a-kind private club in Chicago rooted in wellness and community. He showed us some renderings and some videos. It's a picture of the place that's incredible. When I go to Chicago, I have to get there.

And he's also recently debuted his memoir, The Bottomless Cup, which was named one of Bloomberg's Best Books of the Year, and it became a bestseller. We had an incredible time talking to Kevin. He was one of the nicest guests we've ever had on the show. Some of the themes include the gift of rock bottom, reframing success, personal transformation, how to think about the world in an unconventional way, how to avoid burnout, what it looks like when you're burning it at both ends of the candle and trying to survive. This is really a story of somebody who's hustled their way to the top, has built an incredible brand, had a lot of tenacity, a lot of grit, and has done some really smart things along the way. He's also got some

incredible stories. With that, I think this audience is going to love this episode with Kevin. Kevin, welcome to the Bostics. Kevin Bame is on the show. So I was served to your book and I told you I was hooked from page one. And then I needed to put faces to all the characters. And so I went to your page and tagged you on Instagram. The book was so compelling. It was so good that I had to have you on the show. So welcome. Thank you. Welcome. That's so nice. I think that I have a personal, there was a relatability to me in your book because I grew up in a restaurant. Like I remember being a tiny little girl and my dad dealing with produce during the day. So your dad was bad shit crazy just like me?

You guys love intensity. You love intensity. I do. Yes. Well, I loved manic moments. And so I was this bipolar kid who didn't know the difference between happy moments and manic moments. And when I opened up a restaurant and it was so exciting and the chaos made me. forget everything else in my life, I was like, this is happiness. I just need to keep doing this

over and over and over again. And that was the prescription for a while. We were talking about this before we sat down with you. Like, do you think that that business attracts personalities like there isn't. Do you think you have to have that kind of personality to sustain for as long as you have? Well, if you don't have a ton of energy, you're not going to be able to do very well. And I think the people who've had pain in their life that have gone through stuff look at restaurant pain and kind of laugh at it a little bit. So they're like, they're like, oh, a 20 plate pickup or I just got sat four tables at the same time. I'm like, who cares? So I liked it and thrived in it. It was like going through a rush inside of a restaurant to me was like the, it was like a version of cutting

yourself. I wanted to feel that pain and get lost in it. And it was almost like I was going to crash the plane and right before it crashed, I'd pull the nose up and I'd get this huge high from it. It's like a rush. I relate to what you're saying. I do this in my personal life with, like I press it on time. I want to crash that plane and get right there, but then I come right. But you don't crash it. I want to get that right to the edge.

He is the exact opposite of that. Do you think that's why you're a good match. Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I don't think we could, I think two of the same kind of people like that, that could be a mess. I think so. Oh, for sure. That's where you go down like, you know, Sid Vicious and Nancy. You don't want to go that direction. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, yeah, I would get to the end of the night then. And it was like, and you're all amped up and you're like, could I please get seven margaritas? You know, and so you'd put out that fire with alcohol and then I would go to bed and I would do it over again. And one of the signs of being bipolar is that you don't eat a lot of sleep. And so I would then go to bed and I would then go to bed and I would then go to bed and I would. I would then go to. to bed, I'd sleep for a few hours, I'd get up, and I would chase the anxiety again. I'd like, how fast can I get back to service so I can feel better again? So what was your childhood like?

Were you wired like this from an early age? So I knew from a pretty early age that my father hated me. You know, you pick up on social cues that someone doesn't like you very much. And in my little tiny house, and he was a yeller and a screamer, and I was like, okay, this man does not like me for some reason. And so I was chasing being liked in my own house. And so from an early age, when you're not liked inside your own house, you think that the only way that you're going to be liked or loved in life is by invention. And so I started thinking about who I could invent to be likable or lovable.

And it seemed to me like the guy that threw a party every night and a bunch of people came, that that guy was pretty popular. And so I created this kind of restaurant tour version of myself. But as a young kid, I struggled with just likability and the fear of criticism of others. And so I was kind of always chasing that. What was it like having a father who you felt didn't like you with your mom dynamic? Because I can imagine as a little boy, seeing that with your mother was difficult. Yeah, my mom was my protector. And even if you look at a lot of pictures of us as a kid,

my father's never standing close to me or has his hands of me or anything like that. And of course, you know, very early in the book, I say in the summer of 1989, halfway through a Western omelette, a cup of coffee, I found out that I wasn't really Kevin Bam. And so at 18 years old, I figured out why he didn't like me. And that was because I was the product of an affair. And I wasn't his son and he knew it. There was a constant reminder for him. He looked at me and he saw Woody Valentine, who was my father. When Woody asks you to go out to eat at the diner, did you think it was weird or did you know he was going to tell you something profound like he was your father? Yeah, I mean, I was trying to be polite and I had met him a couple times.

And the only thing I really knew about him was that he was an ex-professional boxer and that my mom had maybe worked for him for a little while. And so I was like, yeah, whatever. I mean, I was also a poor kid. And he was like, hey, why don't I take you for a round of golf afterwards? and I was like, cool, I'd never played golf before. So I was a little uncomfortable with it, but I was like, yeah, what the hell? So when he tells you that information, how did you go back to your other father who? Who you thought was your father?

Thought was your father. So I went straight from him telling me that to my childhood playground because I knew that my dad was home for lunch and I didn't want to face him. And it was the first time ever in my life that I had empathy for him. So you start thinking of all the things. that had happened in your life, and you were like, holy shit, laundry night. I instantly thought my mom would get all dolled up every Sunday night, makeup, the whole thing, 60 minutes would be on TV, and she refused to get us a washer and dryer because she went

out on a date with Woody every Sunday night. And I'm sitting on that playground and I'm rewinding all the things of my life. And I'm like, okay, now I understand why he hated me. Oh, my God, Mom has been carrying on this affair for all these years. Because when he was sitting there talking, he was talking about how much he loved my mom. And so a lot of things were making sense. But I was afraid to face anybody. And I just remember that it was three days later, I left to go to college. And I was nowhere to be found.

Because I didn't want to be home. I didn't want to kind of look at my mom. Did your mom know that he knew she was having an affair? And was it too bad? So this, no. I've sorted out some of this mystery. And some of it, I have not. And some of it has been sorted out while I've been on book tour.

Because when you write a personal book like this, it no longer is just your own anymore. People can say like this is plugging some of the holes of the story. And so I've gotten calls from Woody's side of the family and other people. I had never even heard, nor had my mom, that my dad had admitted or said to anyone that I wasn't his child. My mom and him never had a conversation about it. And then my banker at a book event came up and said, 10 years ago, your dad, said to me, no, Kevin's not really my son. Your dad that you grew up with in your home.

Yes. He was saying it to other people. Larry. But him and your mother could never face that truth together. Correct. It sounds like your dad that you grew up with loved your mother so much that he didn't want to rock the boat. And he knew if he rocked the boat, she would leave. Lauren, you're nailing it.

I hope that's what I do for a living. It started as a bartender. You want a drink? She's getting heavy very quick. Right in the bathtub. Do you have a bar back there? Yeah. So did it feel like, I guess maybe for your dad who wasn't your dad, that he was trapped in a way

because he didn't want to rock the boat and he wanted to stay with your mother, but if he knew if he did that too much, she would leave and go with Woody? Yeah. I think my mom was the best thing and maybe only one of the few things in his entire life that made him feel good. And his big problem was, is very early out of the marriage, he tried to control it. You know, he kind of weaponized the Bible and I'm the master. of the house and it backfired on him.

And then when he lost her, he was going to do anything he could to keep her, including not saying anything about my paternity. Did your mom love him? My mom felt sorry for Larry. And she said to me very late in life, like, I should not have married Larry. Larry could have found a woman who would have loved him. And I think that they both, I think that she felt bad about the situation. Do you feel after writing this book, and there's so much to get to in the book, that you've forgiven Woody, your dad, Larry, and your mom?

I'd always forgiven my mom. I never held anything against my mom. I carried a terrible grudge against Larry for a long time. And there are three pillars in life that I live by now. And it's do I wake up with purpose every single morning? And is my reasoning behind that purpose a noble one? It's not revenge and it's not ego. It was revenge for a long time. I wanted to succeed because Larry told me again and again what a bum I was going to be. Two, do I run into the people that I like love and respect while I'm doing that purpose? And then three, if I was watching the movie of my own life, could I do an edit of it that was unedited? You know, would I be rooting for myself as the protagonist and would I be okay showing an unedited cut to everybody? And if those three things are in line, then I'm in line. The first part of that, the right reason behind the purpose, for a long time I was on a revenge

to her against Larry. And that's incredibly unhealthy. Have you let that go now you feel? In your book, you do feel bad for him. Like, I felt bad as a reader. Do you think you could have had the tremendous success you've had without that motivation, though? Because when we talk to people, it's like there's always the thing that's like the chip on the shoulder that's pushing. And the question is, like, could you have got where you've gotten to without that?

Probably not. You know, blind ambition does not do much for human development. And in the last five years, I've done great work as in my own human development. And I probably made me not as good of a restaurant tour. But I've now found this intersection where I can both develop as a human being and do soulful projects and figure out where my skill set goes and be a great father. But yeah, for a long time, it was super unhealthy. You were homeless at one point, which you talk about. What did it look like going from homeless to getting that first restaurant open? Well, I make a joke in the book.

I say the first time you live in your car, you think this is going to make a really good book someday. The second time you live in your car, you think there's probably not going to be a book. And so fortunately, I lived in my car once. What happened was I, you know, sometimes I would get uncomfortable sleeping in my Suzuki samurai. And so I pulled a sleeping bag out one night, and I was sleeping under a tree on the beach. And I heard a mom say, kids, get away from there. And I looked up to figure out what was so scary. And it was me that she thought that was scary.

And I just, I had a talk with myself. And I was like, kid, you got to get it together. And I wrote this really beautiful piece of fiction. that was my first resume that had all these restaurants on there that had all mysteriously gone out of business so they couldn't call for a reference check. And I went to the most fine dining restaurant in town and I interviewed with this guy and you know, life's a game of inches sometimes. The owner of the restaurant was walking by. He asked me a question I couldn't really answer and she grabbed by the face and she said, I like this one. Mike, hire this one. And he goes, I guess you got

the job kid. And I think it was just the universe looking out for me and two weeks into being at that restaurant, I was like, this is my home. These are my people. And what I realized about restaurant people, and you've seen this, Lauren, they know a lot about food. They know a lot about wine. They also know a lot about, like, music and movies, and they're dangerous. And I was like, yes, take me on a ride with these folks. And I did. I went on a ride with them. And I figured out also at the same time that I was really good at saving money. And so I was very superstitious. And I I would put all my money from one job in an envelope and I would lick it and I would seal it. And I cursed myself if I ever opened up a sealed envelope that I would never open up my first restaurant.

And the other cash I got from the other job I would live on. That's smart. And one day I had enough money. And I said, peace out to everybody. And you open your own restaurant. I opened up a little tiny restaurant. My girlfriend at the time, Teresa, called the Lazy Days Cafe, Six Tables. That menu sounded so good.

I was like, fuck, why isn't this open anymore? That menu sounded so good. It was simple, but in so many great ways. You know, we literally would have fishermen knock on our kitchen door and say, hey, I just go in some Kobe. You want to buy it for me? Which is completely illegal. But, yes, we would buy Kobe off of a guy, and that would be the fish special.

And she would make puff pastry, and we would have three different puff pastries every night and do these on crude dishes. We would have pasta with roasted garlic tomato cream sauce and fresh Gulf shrimp. baked garlic when you sat down, do a couple of salads. And that was it. We had one six burner. What are we going to Chicago? Yeah, now I'm hungry.

You know, one thing that I have so much respect for restaurateurs like you and my father is that you really have to be an octopus. You have to do it all. You have to be the handyman. You have to be ringing things in. You have to make drinks. You have to cook. You have to have good energy.

You have to finesse. You have to understand the five senses. You better understand the five senses. You don't understand the five senses. That's not going to work. You got to have a good personality. The music, the Miles Davis post music playlist that you had when you said that, like, you got to, it's got to be the right volume. You got a personality.

What do you think when someone's in a restaurant and they have all these different skills, how do you think that applies to outside life? Have you been able to use these octopus skills everywhere? 100%. Well, first of all, I worry for the new generation sometimes because, you know, you know, you know, your ability to be compelling in person and get people to believe in you and all of those things, you've got to do reps to do that. And so the touching of tables that I did very early on in restaurants, that imbued all the conversations I had the rest of my life because I could see which ones impacted.

I was always pulling levers and I would be like, oh, yeah, say that. That's a good line. And I've used that my whole life. And I lecture every once in a while at my alma mater that I went to for a little while. And recently, I sat six chairs in the front of the room. And I said, hey, six people sit up here. And I sat a chair in front of the first person. And I said, hey, what did you have for breakfast this morning? And she goes, what? I sat in front of the second person.

And I said, what did you have for breakfast this morning? And she was like, um, third person I sat my chair in front of. I said, would you have for breakfast this morning? And she goes, I like to combine my cereals. And I was like, say more. She's like, well, I throw some corn flakes in there for some crunch and some fruit loops for sweetness. And I'm like, you're like, you're like,

like a breakfast chef and she's like, I said, you should work for Kellogg. I go, guys, she got the job. And so learning these personality skills, we're on our phone so much. And you can really think for a long time how you're going to respond to somebody on Instagram. That doesn't happen in person. Yep. When you say touching tables, what is what is the trick to approaching someone if someone's listening out of the blue and touching a table? And I mean, you can apply. this in any area of your life. You can. So first of all, if someone's upset, I have a tried and true approach to it. Let's hear it. So first of all, server comes over and says, hey, position three,

table 42, they're allergic to cilantro, and they told us, and we still serve them cilantro. I'm like, okay, crap. So I'll go to the table and I'll go, hi, Mrs. Smith, I've heard about what's happened. I've been briefed on it. But is there any way that you could tell me in your own words so I make sure that I understand everything? So first of all, it means that I care. Two, when she tells me about it, it's going to de-escalate her. So then why she's telling me about it, I active listen.

So she doesn't think that I'm just like not fully in with her and on her side. And at the end of it, I apologize and I do some sort of action. I had dinner with the head FBI negotiator once I told him that and he's like, he'd be pretty good at my job. He goes, I do basically the same thing. So I was that guy that they would send in when somebody was really ticked off. It sounds like how I deal with my toddler.

Does it de-escalate because they have to voice why they're so angry? They realize it's maybe not worth being that angry about. Well, think about when you get really angry, it's almost like you're holding your breath. I can't wait to get this out. And then when you talk about it, you're like, I told the server that we were going to have

and they're breathing while they're talking. And as before you know, with their heart rates down a little bit, and you're like, how about, how about I buy your meal tonight? And how about I give you my card and the next time you come in, I'll start your meal out personally the next time. And in those early days, when I was young and scrappy, and I was so crazy concerned about every table

and so paranoid because I had terrible anxiety that one little misstep, people were not going to come back. And so I was always the guy rolling and saying, God, Table 22 doesn't look like they're having a good time. What's happening? As I was paranoid about everything. At what point did you recognize that you had bipolar? Wow. I remember watching ordinary people when I was young and Timothy Hutton and that movie commits suicide and this was, you know, Redford directed it and it was Mary Tyler Moore as the overbearing mom. And I was like, oh, wow. Maybe there's maybe I have a little bit of that. Because when you're young, it's a Michael Jordan-like leap to go from thinking, I get in bad mood sometimes to I have a real problem with depression.

And watching him, I was like, okay, maybe there's something there. And then when I sold my first two restaurants and I went back to Springfield, Illinois, I was having real trouble every single morning. And I'm like, why am I not happy? I just sold two restaurants. I'm back in my hometown. I get to show Larry what I've done. And I went and saw a therapist.

And I met with her for 90 minutes. And at the end of it, she said, Kevin, I think you might be bipolar. And I stood up and I said, I go, I go, fuck you, Sharon. And I walked out. Because I'd only heard bipolar in the context of someone being critical about someone else. Like, oh, they're bipolar. Crazy.

They're crazy. And I'm like, I'm not fucking crazy. I'd spent my whole life trying to not be crazy. I'd classified Larry as crazy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm not that. And so I walked out. But it was in the back of my head for years then that like, okay, there's something wrong with me, but I can fix it. I can fix it. If the Chinese have done it for 5,000

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and you needed to make a change? Around 2016 and 2017, I was in real trouble. And I was actually inside the restaurants. And I remember being in the restaurant one night and needing to engage in something and instead walking out the door and getting in my car. And like the universe was playing tricks on me, the Rich Eisen show was on TV. And Kevin Costner was being interviewed by Rich Eisen. And I'm driving along listening. And he said, hey, Kevin, who's the best actor you ever worked with? And he said, Gene Hackman, by far. And he goes, let me tell you a Gene Hackman story. He goes, I'm in a huge fight with the director because every scene between me and Hackman were across from each other at the table.

And I'm like, we're not filming it here. I need to move around. We're going to film it over here. Taylor Hackford's like, no, we're not. He's like, yes, we are. And they're screaming at each other. And at one point, Taylor Hackford goes, hey, Gene Hackman's in the scene, too.

Maybe we should ask him. And Kevin Koster says, you know what? Gene's pretty freaking good. I think he'll figure it out. So they film it over here. And at the end of the day, Koster walks out into the lot. Gene Hackman's sitting on his car.

And Koster goes, oh, crap. I've disrespected this guy. And he goes, he goes get hammered, that's not what happened. Hackman goes, you know what? The last five years, I've been really depressed and I've been getting a divorce and I've been taking bad movies, and I haven't been able to do what you just did today. That was the right move. Keep doing it. He got his car and drove off. And it landed with me like I got punched right in the face. I was like, I can't do my job anymore. And there was a slow climb for me then to really start

thinking about my own mental health. And unfortunately, what got in the way of all that was the day before the pandemic really hit us and they closed all the restaurants. My mom died. And that's when I really fell off a cliff. And a year later, I was in this town in Los Angeles, standing on a ledge after I'd written four suicide notes and getting ready to jump. You talk about this in the book, but if you could paraphrase it,

to the audience, what woke you up out of that? My phone rang. I woke up that morning, and my brain's never been more of a tornado than it was that morning. And, you know, during COVID, there was, people had kind of turned their guns a little bit on the restaurant business. And there had been this kind of blog hit piece that had come out about us laying some people off, but they didn't know the full story.

It was a management deal that we had left and the hotel was just going to rehire them so they didn't have the full story and I had read that piece and I just couldn't take the pressure or the criticism anymore and I'm not a day drinker but I ordered up a bottle of wine

and polished off the complimentary bottle of wine in the hotel room and I was like this is it. Sometimes when you're sad you want to feel even sadder and I put on the saddest song I could think of and it almost put me in a trance and I went out there ready to jump and the phone rang and this stopped me.

Who was on the phone? Nobody of any significance. Just a random person. It was just the ring that stopped the song from playing. Huh. And did that wake you up from what you were doing?

It forced me because I had literally released my hands and I just stopped for a second and I climbed back down and then I grabbed a pillow and I fell asleep on the balcony. And when I woke up, you know when you wake up and you have that 30 second reprieve to where you can't remember what happened? When you wake up in a flop sweat on a balcony, you don't get that 30 second reprieve.

I woke up and was like, oh my God, something is seriously wrong with you and you can't outsmart it anymore. And then I spent the next hour writing 20 things that I needed to do in my life if I was going to move forward. And rock bottom, if you can survive it as a gift. Give us some of the things on that list because there might be people who are listening that are feeling low and that might inspire them. Yeah. Well, the number one thing on the list was get a therapist right away and you need to talk to that therapist five days a week.

And I did. I got a therapist right away and I said, I really need you every day right now. And what I figured out real quickly is if you're doing it right, your relationship with your therapist is like no relationship you're going to have in your life because they're not there to like you. They're there to help you. And so for the first time of my life, I wasn't pretending to be anybody. It was my authentic self. And I just said, here's who I am. And I need your help. And I just happen to have the best therapist ever who's still with me. You know, so that relationship and Elena, you know, she really, she really helped save my life.

For the first time ever, here's my authentic self. Here's everything that's happening that I'm thinking. that I'm feeling, that was the obvious first step. And she helped me get medicated. And the medication, when it really kicked in, that's probably the biggest regret of my life. Why? Because it got rid of the irrational anxiety. And I was just like, God damn it, Kevin,

you could have done this a long time ago. So it felt like there was a foot on your neck and then that removed it, and it immediately gave you relief. I was super happy. And then I was like, Kevin, you son of a bitch. What an idiot.

All the low-hanging fruit. And so if you haven't done the low-hanging fruit, if you haven't talked to a psychiatrist and you haven't talked to a therapist, do that. And then I went to both my companies and I said, guys, I'm not going to be around for a little while.

I need time away. And I remember the next day, like eight people called me from both companies. And I was like, I don't think you, I don't think you guys understand. I'm being serious. I need you to leave me alone for a little while. Were they just not used to that version of you? No, he was constantly always on like 24-7. It sounds like. And also if you're

bipolar, you might say something. They're like, oh, he'll be different tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, he's going to be fine. Hey, I just wanted to talk. I was like, no, no, no, leave me alone. And they were like, oh, this is for real. Then they left me alone. And how long did they leave you alone for? It was really about six weeks where I didn't walk a dining room, go into a restaurant, and I really just concentrated on my own health. I went and did ayahuasca. And? That's the hardest 10 hours of my life. Why?

10 years of therapy and 10 hours. Is it really that? Oh, my God. It's anything that you've put into your subconscious that's trauma, shame, guilt, pain, you basically sit in it for 10 hours. So all these things you've tried really hard not to think about, you've tried really hard not to think about, you are transported there. Most of the time I didn't know that I was in the room.

I was back in those places. And it's been incredibly effective with soldiers who had PTSD. But it's really effective with anybody who has a lot of stuff stored up in that subconscious. Would you do it again? Because sometimes I hear people are like, I need to do it every year. Or is one enough? It's a great question. I sure don't want to do it again.

It's awful. It's not like an enjoyment. work yeah no it's it's work you know and so everybody that was a first timer that was doing it there with me you know i was literally hugging the guy next to me my biggest mistake was that i didn't take a loved one with me and someone that i could count on and trust i was looking for something and someone to hold on to besides the shaman in the middle of it i went to the shaman i was like could you please make this stop and he goes kevin you came to sit here in the sadness go back and sit in the sadness That was it.

I sat in the sadness for 10 hours, and then three days later, I had the lightest and greatest sleep in my life. Do you feel like it kind of got it all out, or you're able to just face it and look at it differently? There was a couple things that I had repressed. You're like, of course that happened. Of course that happened. And I was able to deal with it, and because I had Elena, I could sit with and talk to her about it. And so that was super important, all that work that I was going on and doing at that time, and then not having to worry about work for a little while, stopping drinking.

The big problem with drinking was I was fairly disciplined about it. I would drink like one day a week. But that one day a week, I would have like 12 drinks. And then for three days afterwards, I would have suicidal ideation. And so I spoke to a friend of mine and I'm like, well, I'm not an alcoholic. You know, I only drink like one day a week. And he goes, but what happens? And I go, well, I feel like I want to kill myself afterwards.

He goes, well, how long has that been going on? He said 10 years. He goes, Kevin, you can call it whatever you want to call it. And so I went cold turkey on drinking. So you weren't drinking like a lot of people in the restaurant industry the way they drink because I used to do it when I was a young. Girl is you go in the back in the closet and you take a couple of Sips of wine and you do it all throughout your shift and you don't get too drunk because you're serving people but you're all it's like almost like a slow drip that's not the way you were I never did that so in my 20s it was always after service so sorry daddy

I'm sure dad I'm sure dad's been there um but what I would do is I was in the closet too how yeah was in the closet he probably had a couple of doctors um I would get done with a shift and it would be like 10 to 1030 and that's when the place would kind of shift to a party and I would go up there to quote Johnny Depp and order my megapine and I would get an 11 ounce cavernay The biggest cup ever.

Just a giant tub of cavernay and yeah it was kind of like red wine and tequila for me and then I would drink kind of the rest of the night but post service and then when I got to my 30s it was a moderated version of that By the time I got to my 40s, it was only on the weekends. And then by my like mid to late 40s, it was like only on Saturday night.

You had a discipline around it, but it still was problematic. It's exactly right. So right now, are you still sober? I'm still sober. I drink a lot of caffeine. I have the best, by the way, this is just random tangent, moktail ever. You have to try this. Okay.

Okay. Peak T. Use code skinny. But actually. You already got me because I get so upset when people don't have tea. It's not a tea, really. Is there a caffeine in it? I don't know if there's, no, it's a nightcap.

Okay, got it. It's called Vesper. It tastes like an apparel spritz. Yes, yes, yes. And I put my, my Pellegrino on top of it, squeeze a lemon in it. You could also do an orange and a bunch of ice. And it tastes like I'm drinking a fucking aporal spritz every night. We have a lot of friends that were in the nightlife in restaurant business, and he was

explaining to me, and he recently cut alcohol, cold turkey and needed to. but he was in your world for 50 years. He had his first nightclub when he was 19 years old and then just kept going. And he's like, the way he described to me, he's like, you know how you came into our spots? You'd have like dinner and you go to the club and have drinks and all that. And you know how you do that like in the weekend?

I'm like, yeah, he goes, well, he's like, I never left. That's like you. He's like, so that first night you came in and then you like left and went about your life. He's like, I just never left. He's like, I stayed there for 40 years. And he's like, so that's why I need to like make some changes because we go as patrons and we enjoy,

and then we leave and go back to our life. But people like yourself that are just living it. And then he was expected to be the guy. Like, you walk in and you would see him, and people want to buy drinks with them and hang out with them and do the thing. And I think at some point, it just overwhelms and catches up.

It does. I drink a weird amount of iced tea now. Oh. And I get very angry of people don't have iced tea or I'll ask him to make green tea and put it over ice. I would have that for you ready to go. Had I known that. Next time you come on the show, I will have that.

I just dust the room with a little bit of cocaine. Okay. All right. And it's like half rim of cocaine. Half room of cocaine. Holy joke. Joey, get out the cocaine. I'm just kidding.

I think it's a joke, people. It's a joke. Guys, the dear media cocaine is amazing. You know, I heard radio drugs were nothing compared to it. I think one thing that people don't understand is how difficult the restaurant business is on a relationship. I saw it firsthand. My mother and my father worked in the business.

My mom was the details person. My dad was the visionary, the big picture, a little harder to control, a little more ADHD, and my mom was sort of like the organizer. Michael's my mom. I'm my dad. Weird dynamic. Yeah, it's weird dynamic. I got to go do ayahuasca.

But I think people don't realize like how crazy it is on a relationship. And in your book, you kind of touch on your marriage where you were saying like it's really almost hard to make time. for a marriage because you're managing the whole restaurant and you have to rush home. You talked about putting your baby on your chest and like really savoring those moments. What was that like? Well, I mean, a lot of times Courtney, who's my ex-wife, would get the worst of me, you know, because I would expend all that energy on other people and then I would drop the facade.

I was like a method actor and I would come home and I would turn back into myself again. So, I mean, I think it was hard on all of us. You know, I think one of Cordy's quotes when time was, like, you're never boring, but you're also no picnic. And I think that was absolutely the truth. So, you know, yeah, really hard on relationships my whole life. You know, my girlfriend now, Anya, you know, gets a much better version of me because she gets, she gets the balanced sober me, which is like so much better of a version. So I'm glad I'm glad that I met her at this time. But yeah, really hard. on really hard on court. And, you know, I did the best I could.

I didn't get raised in a house that was a normal family life or a normal marriage. And so I was also learning how to live within a family. And I remember very early on, like, you know, Courtney being like, yeah, we sit down to dinner together. I had never done that growing up. We only sat down for dinner together at the holidays. Which is crazy because you were

serving people sitting down to dinner together. I don't know if serving's the right word, but courting and hosting and having all these people do that in front of you, but it seemed like in the book, you almost couldn't do it for yourself. Correct. I was fending for myself. You know, part of the independence that I got and the reason that I could drop out of college and drive down to Florida by myself is because I'd been kind of independent for a long time. I'd kind of felt like I'd been independent since I was 12 years old. Was the divorce that you had because you didn't speak about this in the book? Was that after all of this happened with ayahuasca? Yeah, this was after.

This was after, you know, and sometimes, like, I think the way I said in the book, you know, Dave Mason's got a song, you know, there ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me, and we just disagree. And, you know, we had just gotten to a point. We were much different people than when we met. She was very young when we met. She was, you know, what were we, like, 21 and 31 or 22 and 32 when we met? And so we had just become different people

And she's an incredible mom We have three kids together We co-parent well I've got a I've got a 20 Almost 22 year old daughter at pepper dine She's so cute I saw her on your Instagram You're in trouble man

I know Oh I don't know what you're gonna do She's tough as nails I pity the fool that messes with Sophia Bame And then Lola Bame It just got into University of Michigan My brilliant daughter That's a good school

It's incredible And she's He's in love with her new boyfriend Owen. You like the guy? He's great. He's an incredible kid. And then my buddy Luca, my little boy, he's 12 years old. So crazy.

What does your life look like now when you go from all of this restaurants and you're in and you're working seven days a week? And how many restaurants are there at this point? Yeah, you ought to tell Michael the... 36 restaurants. Wow. It's snarly. And they're all over the place. We're about to open in Nashville, Tennessee.

We have a restaurant in St. Petersburg, Florida. Why should come to Austin? You're going to come to Austin? Dude, we're looking, man. We've been looking at Austin. We've been looking at Austin for a long time. It's growing up. I know it is.

And you know what? We need more spaces, I think. Like, we need, like, it's, yeah. There's a discussion on one right now. Can I tell you something for me to get a reservation? I swear to God, I just booked a reservation for April at the restaurants there. If I cannot get a reservation, I'm like, who do I have? to blow to get a reservation.

Hopefully nobody. You cannot get a reservation anywhere in the town. If I want to go to a restaurant, I have to plan three months in advance. Do you know what's a pretty good name for a restaurant? Him and her? It's pretty good name. Well, we're rebranding. You can have it.

Dang it. Go open the restaurant. But you know, no, there's more stuff over there. Guys, you want to do a restaurant to go in? Lauren could barks out every couple of weeks. That would probably go pretty wild. Me and your dad? I mean, come on.

My dad listening right now, you don't even know. There's magic happening right now. You know, it's funny, my buddy that was in that business forever, he moved out there. So there's like all these, like, it's funny, a lot of the guys that kind of got out of that world. Family and friends, they came to Austin now. And now they're like, hey, maybe I need another place out here. So where else are your restaurants? Keep going.

So we have three in Brooklyn with an incredible chef named Michael Solamanoff called Laser Wolf. That is a juggernaut in New York City. Fun story, fun celebrity story about laser wool. Tell us a celebrity story. Tell me how you came over that name. Yeah. That's a good name. So it's the dentist and fiddler on the roof.

Okay. And so it's an Israeli restaurant. Michael won the James Beard Award for Best Chef in America. I opened that restaurant right when I was going through all that work, and it became like therapy for me. And when we opened, I said, you know what? I'm going to go to Brooklyn for a month. And I'm going to stay in Brooklyn.

I'm going to work every service. And so I was working every service. And when I very first opened my first restaurant, I thought, I'm going to get a subscription to the New York Times, made me feel cool. And Ruth Reichel was the New York Times food critic back then, and I would read her articles. And when I was very young, I took one of her articles and I went to New York by myself and I dined into one of the restaurants that she reviewed because I wanted to see if I was smart enough to have the same experience that she did. So I'm working Laser Wolf. And the last night I was there, she came into the restaurant. And I'd never met her before.

and I went to the table and I told her the story and she goes, what restaurant review was it? And I said it was Union Pacific. And she looked at me and she goes, the woman next to me is moaning. That's the first line of the review. That's the first line of the review. I go, that's it. She's moaning because the food's so good.

That is such a good line. So at the end of service, I put down soft serve because we end the meal with a different soft serve and she had told me during that meal that were the best French fries with tahini ketchup she ever had. And so I laid down the fries

as a dipping vehicle for the soft serve and she took a bite of it and she grabbed me by the arm and pulled me down and she goes, Kevin, this time it's me that's moaning. So good. And I was like, yes.

That's cool. That's cool. And so, but I left town and then two weeks later, Howard Stern was talking on a show that he hadn't been out to eat since COVID and that Kimmel was going to make him go out to eat

and it started as a two-top but then Aniston joined, John Hamm joined, Jason Bateman joined, Justin Thoreau joined. And you can imagine this tent top walking in with all those huge stars. And, you know, stern's like six foot six or whatever. The whole restaurant stopped.

Yeah, everyone just is staring. Staring. And so the next day, that picture was everywhere. We just like kind of exploded. And sometimes that's fun marketing. Yeah, that's great marketing. What does your life look like now with all these restaurants? Are you in the restaurant or no?

I don't walk restaurants like I used to because I walked restaurants six days a week for 27 years. And so it's a lot. So I sprint in and out of it. So when Nashville opens, I'm going to be in Nashville a lot for a couple months. Just like I did with Laser Wolf, I'm going to work a ton of services. So you sort of massage it to make sure it's right. I do. Is the culture right? Do we need to change things? I've never had a restaurant where you build the blueprint and then you open it.

and you're not like, we got to change this, this, and this. It's kind of like a play. You know, there's that, there's previews. And you do that first preview. And you're just like, well, we got to change this line. And this doesn't work right. And let's massage this dialogue. What are maybe the top three to five mistakes most new restaurateurs make?

Well, first of all, they do unrealistic performance. So they'll look at like the most successful restaurants in town. And they're like, I think we're going to do 11.6 million. Right. And so, and they design a restaurant based on those sales figures. And I always tell people I'm like, first restaurant, low budget, don't take too much money from family, you know, do it scrappy. And the great thing is, is today's age of journalism really likes the young scrappy restaurants. They like Blair Witch Project, man.

They like something shot on a handheld camera. So pour over every plate, be super nice to everybody and be there every night. And so people see you there. And then if that works, build the bigger restaurant. and so I think that you've got to take it really personally and if you really want it to succeed you know you see all this you see all these fancy chefs on TV living the glamorous life it ain't glamour in the beginning and there is a pay-in process like a pension and if you really want to be great you're going to have to pay in how do you fire someone you've probably fired a lot

of people oh man I don't I don't love I don't love the firing but I think you have to take a motion out of it and I think you have to be very honest with someone of why you're doing it. Thoughtful, empathetic, give them a real reason why it's happening and then give them some sort of hope. And so... That's nice. I like that. It's like... And it shouldn't be a surprise by the time you get to the firing.

It shouldn't be the quick acts. It's like, we've had three sit downs and let me tell you what the problem is. Here's what I'm trying to accomplish. I sat you down three times. at this point, I can't have one of my best customers coming in and having you wait on them because this is what's been happening. But I still hope for you. And I want you to be better. And here's what you have to do to get through it.

And I'm sorry that we're going to have to break up. But it doesn't mean we can't get back together someday. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase. showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get paid all in one place.

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It's caffeine-free, non-GMO, sugar-free, vegan, and third-recovery, and third. party tested. When Lauren and I are at home, we have these big jugs of kionominoes. We take them when we go to the gym. We put a scoop or two in our water and take them when we're training. When we're on the go, we bring the individual travel packs and again, scoop them right into a water. And what I love is it's a little bit of an enhancer for the water. My favorite flavor is this mango flavor. Lorna's favorite flavor. They also have this great watermelon flavor. And it's one scoop and water and you're done. And I take it before every workout, but you can take it at any time of day. Again, when I'm traveling, I take it throughout the day. It fits right

into an existing wellness stack and it's quickly become one of our top five supplements that we take regularly. So check them out. For me, Kion is the premium option. It's transparent research backed clean and easy to take every single day. All you have to do is go to get kion.com slash skinny for 20% off. That's get k-i-on.com slash skinny. I want to tell you about the charity that I am so passionate about and it is called I Stand with My Pack. They are committed to getting dogs fostered and adopted. I have been a fan of the specific charity for about five years when my daughter was born. I met a woman named Lucy and she was helping me with Saza and she told me all about this incredible charity I stand with my pack where they helped animals find homes that were in really bad conditions.

And I started following the Instagram account, fell in love with what they were doing and then decided to partner with them to bring awareness to the their cause. If you're looking to adopt or foster a dog, you have to check them out. It's I Stand With My Pack. They are accepting donations to if you can't adopt or foster, and all of the money goes to their mission, which is to help dogs with major medical needs that are often not seen by adopters or other rescuers. Check them out. I StandwithMyPack.org. Well, I have a friend who used to work in the Michael Meena restaurants. Oh, yeah. I know those guys. I know Michael for a long time. And he was telling me about like exactly.

He was saying basically you sit down with someone, you tell him the same thing three times. First time, it's like, hey, did you understand it? That's right. Second time, hey, let me make sure you understand it this time. The fork goes here. He said third time, it's, okay, I've told you,

you've acknowledged, you've understood it, but now you've got to go, basically. It's basically like three times. Like first time it's on the manager's mistake. Second time, it's making sure that like what you're trying to convey is understood and expressed. And then third time, it's okay, you're just not getting what I'm putting down.

In the old days, I would go into a management meeting, and I would say, if we had 15 captains, I would say, guys, who's below the line? Who's the two worst? And they might say, everybody's great. Like, if we drew a line, everybody's above the line, they're like, okay, you know, Tom and Gina are the two below the line people. And I'm like, what are we doing? Are we managing them up? Are we mentoring them? You know, have we had sit downs with them, or are we going to go our separate ways? And I remember somebody who'd been on that list like six times and the Chicago Truman Food Critic came in. And I still have the text exchange because when he retired, I read it at a party. And it was like, Kevin, Phil Vitel just walked in. And I was like, fuck. And I was like, what tables he's sitting at? I was like, table 22. And I was like, I hate table 22.

And I was like, who's waiting on him? They were like, Gina. And I was like, damn, I hate Gina. And so it was this whole lesson that I went back to the manager. and I was like, you know, and we kind of had to move Gina off the table a little bit, move somebody else in, and I was like, now do you understand? And he was not great at mentoring people. That's a good lesson. What is your next chapter?

What can we expect from you? Are you going to open like a hundred more restaurants? Are you focused on like what you already have? I mean, you got a lot of restaurants, man. Listen, I have an incredible partner named Rob Katz, but more importantly, we have an incredible team of people. And, you know, my C-suite, my executive partners, my chef partners, these are people I've worked with for two decades. That's so cool. Ian Goldberg, what's the first person we ever hired, he's worked for us for 23 years. He went from bartender to COO. I mean,

it's been incredible. So, Belka Restaurant Group's bigger than me, and we're going to open up more restaurants. I really like writing. Yeah, you're good at it. Thank you. You're very good at it. You got a talent. Thanks. I'm writing a book right now called are you sure you're not an asshole? And so it's a book about self-awareness, but more importantly, it's a book about 15 things that I'm about to go do as an adventure, and every chapter is one of them

that's going to kind of shake me a little bit. One of them is go help someone somewhere where they can't say thank you. Give away something in your life that's meaningful to you, not excess, to someone else who would mean more to. this is going to be a good one hike to base camp at Everest just because it's difficult

and so every chapter is going to be one of these things to see how it bends me that'll be a good one and you started doing any of the challenges yet or you nope not yet I'm giving myself 27 months to do it before you go you have to tell us what your experience was on the bear it was amazing um first of all I walked in and my trailer was right next to Olivia Coleman And so that was the first person I saw.

And then I got to watch her do a monologue. So I was like watching Michael Jordan, you know, shoot baskets. And you played yourself. I played myself. I mean, I had a scene with Jeremy Allen White, and he's just so nice and so fun. It's a little nerve-wracking because everybody's watching you. And, you know, obviously I'm not an actor, but it was fun. Chris Storer, who's the writer and director and creator is a genius.

and just, I love watching people who are really good at their jobs work, like you two. And he's very quick, he moves fast and not too many takes, and it was fun to watch him interact with everybody. So if we want to watch that episode, do you know what the episode is? The episode's called Forever, and it's the finale of season three. And it kind of presupposes that Karmie and I used to work together at the number one restaurant in the world. And we run into each other in the hallway. And, you know, he asked me how the rest of that. restaurants are going. You've lived a colorful life.

It's been colorful. I'll take it a little more in black and white moving forward. Maybe your next restaurant can be a library in Austin and you can have the books and the food and we won't have to call four months in advance to get a reservation. Open a place and then just... What's going on? You ought to open a place out in Austin. I love to hear that there's that much demand, Austin.

Every restaurant. If you think about it, it's one of those cities similar to like a Miami or other places where a lot of people moved post-pandemic. And then now a lot more, like a lot of tech happening out there, a lot of finance. I was about to say that one thing you have on Miami, though, is that the tech business has gone crazy there, right? You guys are top five now. Yeah, and like maybe some of the local Austinites would not be excited about me, a transplant

saying, but I feel like both my sons were there now. I'm born there. So I feel like I can say I'm like local now. And I've been there long enough. But like, I think there's an appetite from a lot of people as the city's growing. to expand beyond what was there. And there's a lot of excitement from maybe people that have never thought about being there before

coming there, people like yourself, where they're like trying to look at it as like, oh, you know, there's an appetite from the consumer base now that maybe wasn't there before for these kinds of things. Well, I've already drawn it up. Celebrity Major D. Michael Bostic and celebrity bartender Lauren Bostic

every Thursday night in Austin. I didn't shake it at the best of them. I honestly think that you would crush there. I mean, you've got a lot going on, but you would crush it. We have a couple talks going on in Austin right now. Okay. We'll stay in touch and then you've got to come back anytime that you're in town, let us know.

By the way, the book is called The Bottomless Cup. Yes, the book. You know, the book. The Bottomless Cup came out in November on Abrams Press and I've been on tour. I've done 60 bookstops so far, which has been wild and a lot of fun. And you can get it on Amazon. I got it on my Kindle and I highlighted. so much of it. I loved it. I think that all of you guys will really like it.

So in 27 months, once the challenges are complete, you come back on. Yeah, come back on. And we'll talk about it. And we'll figure out if we're all assholes or not. Yeah. Uh-oh. I think I kind of know the answer for myself. You have the fucking succession theme song on your phone. So that's... It's probably a yes. By the way, the impetus for the book was I had the worst conversation. I was with my girlfriend, Anya, and I had the worst conversation I've ever had with two individuals, and I came out of that conversation, and I'm like, what am I supposed to learn from this conversation

with these bad humans? And instead of being sanctimonious, I was just like, you know, there are parts of me that I don't like to, and how can I create some sort of system to become a better person? Louise Hay said that pick what you don't like about a person and see where you do the same thing.

Yeah, that's right. Did you write that down? What did you say? Where can everyone find you and buy the book and say hi on Instagram? Instagram. I am Kevin Bame Boka on Instagram. The book you can find anywhere, bookstores, Amazon, you name it. And the restaurants, Boka Restaurant Group, it's Boka, grp.com, are all the restaurants.

And, you know, I'm at a lot of the restaurants, a lot of the time. Not as much as I used to be, but I'm still in all those restaurants. soon to be. We're opening in Nashville. We're opening in Denver. And we're opening a restaurant in Chicago in a couple months with Brian Lockwood, who was the chef de Guzino, loved Madison Park when it was the number one restaurant in the world. He came to Chicago and we're doing a restaurant with him called Ginji. And so... I cannot believe I haven't been to one of your restaurants. I need to go. I can't believe it either. You never went to Girl in the Go? I've heard all about him. I've heard about him. There's a Girl on the Go here in L.A. We have one in Arts District. I did not know that.

Actually, I think you said that in your book. I did. But that's far away, right? From here or no? Arch district is kind of a hall. Okay, well, I want to go to one of your restaurants. So we're coming to Chicago. We'll do a tour. Okay, here's what we're going to do. We're going to set up a progressive dinner for you guys where you go to four restaurants and one night. That'd be so fun. And we do a couple. We do this, we do this for the special people.

So what do you do? So you just pop in. You try one thing there. Then you pop, well, are you like, Yeah, we, it's basically like about three and a half hours, but you do like 45 minutes at each restaurant and we time it out. That's cool. It's really, it's really a blast. You're blacked out by the time it's over. Do you have, this is my last question, do you have less food sales now that everyone is on semi-glutide? No. Are you sure?

I'm sure. Do you know that I just found out that the airplane weight has gone down? Like the airplane weight because people are lighter. So it's not a weird question. Who's keeping track of these stats? It was on Instagram, I thought. It's not a real stat. That's not a real stat, Lord.

That is, you just got sucked into the things. Instagram. I think I'm a conspiracy. Lauren's book would be, am I a conspiracy theorist? That would be like, that would be yours. But then the conspiracies come true.

So what does that mean? Just for why, guys, you'll be 17% smarter by listening to this podcast. Yeah, exactly. Are you an asshole? And between now and the next time I come, everybody, figure out if you're an asshole or not.

The bottomless cup, guys, go check it out. And then when you get the new one, you come back and we'll talk about that one too. And I will be going on my three restaurant tour next time I'm in Shibon. Thank you. And opening in Austin soon. Yes.

Exactly.