The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - How India Oxenberg Survived Life Inside A Sex Cult - The NXIVM Cult & It's Downfall

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

#329: On today's episode we are joined by India Oxenberg. is an American film producer, writer, actress, and television personality. A granddaughter of Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia. From 2011 to 2018, India was involved in NXIVM, an American multi-level marketing company that was later exposed as a sex cult. In this episode India discusses how someone could be exposed to a cult and eventually join and how she was able to escape and ultimately survive as the cult was exposed and taken down.  To connect with India Oxenberg click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Phexxi Phexxi® (lactic acid, citric acid, and potassium bitartrate) Vaginal Gel 1.8%, 1%, 0.4% is a hormone-free, prescription birth control used only before sex. Phexxi works to maintain the vaginal pH level to prevent pregnancy and you only use it when you need it! Be sure to tell your healthcare provider if you have a recent history of 3 or more UTIs per year. Learn more, including all risks at Phexxi.com This episode is brought to you by No Days Wasted Their hero product is called DHM Detox, which is the vitamin for people who like to enjoy their drinks. It’s designed to help you bounce back the next day. Get 20% off your order and free shipping in the US. Just head over to www.NoDaysWasted.CO/SKINNY and use promo code "SKINNY” at checkout This episode is brought to you by Wanu Water Wanu water (water + nutrients) is the first-to-market, best-selling nutrient-infused water packed with 10 essential vitamins including 24% of your daily fiber intake providing natural energy that boosts your metabolism, supports a healthy immune system and quenches your appetite while you hydrate. Produced by Dear Media 

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Happy Monday, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show. That clip was from our guests of the show today, India Oxenberg. And on this episode, we are diving into the world, the crazy world of cults, specifically NXIVM. Many of you may be aware of India from her documentary that she put out, Seduced Inside the NXIVM Cult. This episode goes all over. We really dive deep into figure out how somebody could be involved in a cult, how it could start to happen, what goes through the mind, and who better to interview than somebody who actually lived it like India. For those of you that are new to the show, my name is Michael Bostic, and I'm here today with

my co-host, Lauren Eberts Bostic. Today, I'm Bostic. The other day, not so much. Gemini, people. Gemini. I am so excited to be in studio with India because not only does she really expose this cult as a sex cult, she also published a book called Still Learning, and it's a memoir. Really, really cool if you want to learn more about cults. Before this interview, I started learning more and more about cults. I watched her documentary series. I also read Rose McGowan.

I hope I'm saying her last name right. It's called Brave. And she wrote a book about cults too. So I'm sort of diving into this topic, exploring it. If you guys have anyone that you want us to interview about this subject, always let us know. Drop into our DMs. And what I think is really crazy and why I'm happy that we had this conversation is I think from the outside, when you hear cult

and you look at something like NXIVM, immediately you start to pass judgment on these people and like, how could they get involved? Who would ever do this? But after talking to India, you realize it's a lot of really normal people that kind of just slowly over time get caught up in something and they may not even realize they're caught up in it. And so I think this conversation really humanizes India. It really puts in perspective that this could pretty much happen to almost anybody if their guards down and they get involved in something like this. So it's also a warning tale to people that maybe something like this is happening similar

in your life and you could look at it and be like, oh, it's not as hard to fall into these things as people think. Yeah. I talk about in this episode, a story that I have about a cult. We get into that and how the cult leader beelined for me after a presentation. So we talk about that story too. I think you guys are going to love this episode. India is so open. She's smart. She's beautiful. And she really tells it how it is. So with that, let's welcome India. She is an American film producer, writer, actress, and television personality to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her.

So obviously, as you guys heard, we have India in studio. We're so excited to have you here. Before we get into everything, can you give us a little peek inside your childhood, how you grew up? Go way back. Okay. So I was actually born and raised right around here where we are recording this podcast. And I grew up as an only child for the first couple of years of my life. My dad wasn't in the picture, but I was really just my mom's like partner in crime as a child. And so for me, like I thought my mom lived in a trailer when I was a little kid because she was always on set. And I loved the trailers because they were tiny and I could like steal craft service and hide in the trailer and no one would know.

And I was like, this is so cool. Then cut to I'm in elementary school in freaking Beverly Hills and they're like India you don't live in a trailer you live here in Beverly Hills and I was like oh okay my life was not conventional but I also was always kind of like on the fringe of being an LA kid and not being an LA kid like for me my happy place was more the mountains and kind of being in nature. And so I didn't, I always felt like a little bit on the outs, but kind of also familiar with the territory, if that makes sense. So you had a really close relationship with your mom. And as you're growing up, you guys, like, were you just best friends?

It was, yeah, actually, it was kind of like best friends, but also like sisters. Okay. And my mom had two other daughters later with my stepdad, Gaspar Van Dien, and they're like my babies. We're 10 and 12 years apart. So I got an expanded family, but it came later on. And I was so excited about it because up until that point, it had just been my mom and I was used to that. But the idea of having a family and siblings and a dad that was there was all kind of fantasiful for me. And so that's kind of where my life transitioned to. And then you're talking about school and I'm dyslexic. So traditional education was always quite challenging for me and a big area of anxiety. I

just thought I was dumb because I couldn't read until I was probably nine. Wow. Yeah. What was that like? Stressful. Yeah. Because when you're a kid, it's just, and an adult, it's so easy to like look around and compare yourself to everybody else and be like, what's wrong with me because I'm not there rather than what's different about me that I'm here. And so like that's kind of been my journey with education and with school because I love to learn so so when as you become closer and closer to your mom as you grow up we see in the documentary that you guys join this together like it was a thing you did together yes is that were you guys still best friends at this point or had

your relationship changed like what was your relationship like when this happened it sounded like the intention of your mother was obviously to bring you guys closer right is that and that was my intention too and and the reality of that is i was 19 years old so i definitely had my typical mother-daughter bs that we all go through and we're all used to the varying degrees of that. And when you're a teenager, it's like exacerbated. So I went to school in Boston for a year and I realized that that wasn't for me. So I came back home to California and I was kind of lost and aimless at that point. So I was relying on my mom for a little bit of guidance. Then a friend of ours who we trusted, and this is that friend that kind of refers you to everything. And I think we all have one.

Oh, you got to go to my girl. Yeah, you got to go to my girl, whether it's nails or food or hair. This was the personal growth version of that. Is this no longer a friend? No, but no longer a friend, not an enemy, just not in our lives right now. But she invited us and she was super gung ho. And so I just turned to my mom and I was like, what the hell, let's just go. So I got in the car with her. We drove to an intro presentation that was in Santa Monica. And I, like I said, I was kind of in that space where I was really open

and I was really looking for some structure and some guidance because I was feeling pretty aimless just in general. And so when Sarah Edmondson and Mark Vicente started giving their testimonials and explaining what executive success programs was, ESP, the consumer product of NXIVM that they sold to people, I was like, wow. And what is that just for people that don't have context? Yeah. So NXIVM was the overarching company and they had a whole bunch of sub companies underneath them, one of which was called ESP

and that's Executive Success Program. And it's kind of like executive coaching, personal growth. They pulled from a lot of their- It's like Tony Robbins-esque type motivation. Yeah, like in that same vein. But this one was proposing itself as scientific which we later found out was not to throw my boy tony in there but but just you get the the vibe and there was

a bunch of really legitimate people in the room like recognizable people and i stink at recognizing people and i even noticed them in the room like there was a certain level of credibility that my guard was already down. And so the more that they started to speak and share about what this product was, I was like, this is exactly what I need. I need to get rid of these old fears from my childhood and the past so I can actually go forward with my life.

I thought that they really had the answer for me. So they're promising you that you're going to let go of all your fears and anything that they really had the answer for me. So they're promising you that you're going to let go of all your fears and anything that was negative that happens in your childhood. That sounds like heaven. Also sounds like a magic pill. So red flag right there. So looking back on the first day that you were there, what were some really strong red flags that you now see as manipulation? For one, if people are telling you this is going to change your life, that's a red flag.

Just question it. It doesn't mean that they're wrong or bad or anything. It's just like this over-enthusiasm to go in a direction that you're not already headed should be something that I would have questioned, but I didn't because I didn't know to. And I just assumed that I could trust and kind of go with the flow of things rather than being that person that's like what are they even talking about because I wasn't there to question them I was there to learn so I was already in a kind of a

offensive position and what was your mom's like reaction to all this? Different. And that's why I know that it worked better on me in that moment. Because my mom was in her 50s at that point. She had her children. She had a career. She's a mother. She's, you know. Very successful actress. Yeah, she's an actress. She's got a life. And she wasn't looking for somebody to tell her what to do. So her first reaction was, okay, I've seen this kind of spiel before. Right. But if my kid wants to spend five days with me,

I'm not going to pass it up. Oh, so your mom was like, oh, we can like bond. Yeah, that makes total sense. Exactly. Because that's what I took from it when I watched it because I told you I got sucked in and I was watching. I was like, it looked like to me, your mom looks like a lovely person.

Like she was just, she just wanted to spend time with you. I was like, if this makes my daughter happy and if this like a lovely person. Like she was just, she just wanted to spend time with you. I was like, if this makes my daughter happy and if this gets us to bond, like that was kind of her intention. Is that correct? Yeah. Like, I mean, I would like to think that most parents would like to bond with their teenage children, any opportunity that they get.

And what is the price that they're saying that this is? So at that point, I think that they were selling it for $2,500 for a week, like five days of coursework with a 20% discount. It was like really jazzy. And I was like, okay, chill, back off. I don't like hard sales pitches. But I was already really looking forward to spending this time with my mom, but also really looking forward to what they were promising, which was like what you said, this kind of feeling of heaven, like being separate from all the things that bombard us on a regular basis. It sounds like they're selling, well, they say

they're selling peace of mind. See Lauren, when we first got together and I said, this is going to change your life. You should have recognized the red flag. You manipulated me. That's a whole different story. But I imagine your guard must have been down. I mean, and I think, and I don't know if you can make a comparison, but I was watching also something, I'm going to read this author that wrote about Scientology. And I think he did the documentary on HBO, but it's, you know, you go in and you see these well-known figures and names there. And so immediately I would imagine that's like, oh, okay, like they're successful. They're a known person. Like your guard has to go down by a ton if you see those types of people.

Quick break because I need to discuss birth control. I've recently had so many DMs from women all over the world asking for more resources and information and discussion around birth control. So I learned recently that there are more than 21 million women who are not using hormonal birth control, and I'm one of them. But now the FDA recently approved a birth control option that's completely hormone-free. You guys may have seen me talk about this on Instagram already. So it's called Fexi and it's this combination of lactic acid, 1.8%, citric acid, 1%, potassium bitotrate, 0.4%. It's this vaginal birth control gel that comes in a small applicator

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for complete product information. That is P-H-E-X-X-I dot com. And Michael, don't pop a boner. I feel like that's how it is for most things. And I being 19 at the time, why was I going to go and question all of these adults who clearly have their shit together way beyond what I had so I wasn't like what I said I wasn't in a position to to question which is also a red flag like why did I feel that way why was I immediately in a situation where I was kind of taking a back seat the friend that that recommended you, does she get commission? Yes. Okay. I want to talk about this because I don't think people realize this referral thing with things like this. And MLMs and they're a big problem. It's a big problem. I remember when I was probably 22 years old, a girlfriend of mine called me and said I just had the most transformative

experience I need you to come tomorrow night and see this presentation yeah I have goosebumps and so I I really didn't want to go I remember being like fuck I don't want to go but I wanted to support her feeling she had this transformation so I went and she had six other friends there so she had called and done the same thing and i remember i've seen this spiel you've seen this i've done this spiel i remember being in the room and there was hundreds of people and i remember this guy like preaching on this podium and i remember thinking what a load of shit what is happening like how is everyone so manipulated he could tell that i thought that. He came up to me.

There was hundreds of people in the room, you guys. He comes up to me at the end. He beelined for me. And he tried to sit with me and convince me. And I'm just calling it out. This was landmark for him. He tried to convince me to join. And I remember thinking, there's something in the pit of my stomach that doesn't feel right about this.

And also, I think it was like $5,000. And I was like, I'm going to pass on this. Anyway, the reason I tell this story is because that's just like adding like- It's a cautionary tale. Yes, it is. It is. And it happens like you said all the time.

It's so smooth and it's so slick. I like don't like to terrify people and be like, don't trust your friends because that's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that sometimes your friends don't even know what they're really referring you to. And oftentimes there's one person who's getting commission and the other people are working for free. Like for instance, in NXIVM, I did not make money, but there were people above me who recruited me, who continue

to recruit me into other trainings who were profiting. Okay. And it sounded like in NXIVM, you get the sashes, right? That's what, okay. So I told you I went deep here. You get the sashes. And I think in the documentary, once you get a certain level or color of sash, then you can actually start earning and making a living and becoming like counselor. And it reminds me in a certain way, you know, like when people go up, like if you wanted to build community and you wanted to get people feeling vested, then like, obviously there, and then you build a ranking system to make people feel like they're progressing. Like it just gives you this rigged.

Yeah. But you give this release of serotonin to people like, wow, like I'm progressing, I'm moving forward. Like I'm getting rewarded. And it's like this endless cycle. And that's why these large group awareness trainings,

like what you're referring to are dangerous because they change they can change your mind and they can change the way that you feel emotionally which will change the way that you make decisions and that's the thing that I didn't realize at the time that I very much wish that I did was that the more I got into this group and the more that I was groomed and indoctrinated to believe the things that they were teaching I wasn't myself anymore and I more that I was groomed and indoctrinated to believe the things that they were teaching, I wasn't myself anymore. And I know that sounds really weird because we don't think that we can lose ourselves, but anyone who has been in like a either abusive relationship or a toxic work environment or even a coercive high control group knows that they were not the same as when they left. Things have changed. And that's what has taken me so long to try to unpack and figure out. That's what I've been doing for these past

couple of years. That was like part of why I decided to do Seduced or even write a book was to figure out like, what the fuck happened to my brain? I didn't think of myself as a stupid person who foolishly says yes to everything, but how did that happen? And that's what I wanted to make sure was really clear and very detailed in the docuseries. For someone, and I want to go through your whole story, but just for someone who is maybe being approached by a friend asking them to come to this or life changing this. What would your reaction to be to go like I did and just say, oh, this isn't for me? Or would your reaction to be to stay the fuck away? Oh, that's a really good question, because it just depends on where you're at emotionally, because like, say we all have good days. I have bad days.

We all do. And there are some days where I am more influential, like where I am more susceptible, where I'm more vulnerable to things, where I might just like overspend at the grocery store because I'm feeling uncomfortable. So I think it really is a matter of knowing yourself because I would say now I would probably say, oh, I want to go because I want to know and I want to check out what my friend's doing so that maybe I could say like, hey, you might want to look at this. But I wouldn't shame them. That's the thing that is a big no-no in my mind because people do these things with pretty well intentioned overall and they're not trying to hurt you and they're not trying to

manipulate you, but there are people who will. I think, and I agree with you. I think most people go into these things with the intention of bettering themselves, finding community, wanting to improve and all those things. How do you think like when it comes to cults, people get like so sucked into it and then actually start becoming leaders, like not the leader, but leaders of these organizations? How do I think that happens? What's the path that, because you got pretty high up there at one point. I did. I did and I didn't. Like that's the thing that was weird about NXIVM is that they had a pretty solid, strong group of believers. And with those people, did they start or did they like? They started it. Okay. So they were all in it together when it started. Yeah. And we're talking about like 90s after his first failed business or probably multiple failed businesses.

But CBI was one of these things that Keith Raniere created, which was very much like an Amway meets Costco. And it got shut down because it was illegal the way that it was operating. It was like MLM. And so he just kind of did that, but with personal growth. And so people have asked me a lot like do you think that it started off good and then just went awry or was it bad from the beginning and i think it it was bad from the beginning because it was created by keith who's a predator and he used these techniques and these businesses to prey upon people and to use them either

financially or sexually so do you think keith knows he's a predator do you think he's delusioned him his own self delusioned so he thinks that it's so interesting to me what is that extreme narcissism then yeah he thinks that he was working with good intention that's what he tells himself i don't know what goes on in his head but i think he's probably buying his own bullshit because he believes that he did these things for good and he refuses to acknowledge that he actually really hurt people and he thinks that we're all lying so that leads me to believe that he just doesn't have empathy he can't feel for other people what were some of the traits of keith and these people that are higher up were there like common denominator traits like were

they extremely charming funny like what were the things that you saw now looking back i guess one of the scarier things is that they became more and more like keith the longer that they were in the group. And I can even say that for myself. Like my way of thinking and seeing the world started to model more of what he was teaching. And all of his teachings came from his own beliefs. People are fragile. Like our minds are fragile. And you're asking like, how does it happen? And I think it happens because we are fragile. And there are people who are masters at manipulating. Like you said, that guy, he saw you in the group.

And he identified you because he knew you were resistant. It's not hard to read people if you're, like, aware, let alone manipulate them if you're aware of how to manipulate people. And there are people who know how to do this. I think there are events, and I use a Tony Robbins example, but there's so many others. And like, I think a lot of, some of these guys are actually great and like are there to inspire people. And there are people who know how to do this. I think there are events and I use a Tony Robbins example, but there's so many others. And like, I think a lot of some of these guys are actually great and like are there to inspire people. But you go to these events and what I observe and what, you know, is sometimes caught in some flack for saying like, you can recognize that the majority of people that are in these events are, I don't want to say broken people,

but they're people that are looking for answers and looking to find ways to change their life. So immediately they're already in this state where it's like, I'm just going to accept what you give me because I need something different. Totally. And if you're coming, if you're someone that comes in as a friend or whatever, that's not looking for that, obviously your energy is a lot different because you're not looking for those things you're already fine. There's just maybe in the case of your mother. Right. And me for that instance. So it's much

easier to kind of mold those people to a new way of life because they're already questioning the way they were living previously. Exactly. And if you have somebody who's unethical, who is aware of that, they can take you wherever they want. Wait, hold up. We are going to talk about fiber water. Well, WANU water specifically. So WANU water has water and nutrients, and it's the first to market bestselling nutrient infused water. It's packed with 10 essential vitamins, including 24% of your daily fiber intake. Okay. People are going wild for this online. I'm telling you, it has like a cult following because you get all this fiber in a bottle of water and it has energy to boost your metabolism, support a healthy immune system,

and quenches your appetite while you hydrate. My thing is, is that I saw this obsession for water. So I wanted to have the founders on the podcast to discuss all the details. And what we learned is that the amount of fiber in one bottle of water is equivalent to consuming two bananas when it comes to fiber. So you should also know the fiber is zero calorie. And the one that I like is called the peach passion. And we did make peach passion fiber infused margaritas on the show. And you guys, it was so good. So here's the recipe. We did two ounces of tequila over ice. Then we put some sparkling water on top and then topped it with wanu water for a little peachy buzz. And then you can garnish with pomegranate seeds or lime or lemon or orange, whatever. It's so fun. And you're getting your fiber in while you drink. Lastly, and this is

for all the moms out there, their water is sugar-free, free of sugar alcohols, and naturally sweetened with a blend of monk fruit and stevia. Anyway, this is such a great way to sneak in vitamins and fiber. Try it over ice. Try it with tequila. I know you're going to love it. Get creative with the recipes and definitely check out their Instagram at wanulife. All right, let's get back to the show. Can you give our audience a timeline of your experience in the cult? Like when you started and then how it changed as you were like in the middle of it and then maybe towards the end and when you started seeing signs like can you give us the background yeah it was 2011 i'm 19 years old at that point that's when i first take my introductory training then a couple months later i'm asked if i want to

be a coach i'm like no because i grew up here in LA where there's all these coaches. And I'm like, that's not the career path I'm looking for. But they kept pressing me and telling me, you're so natural at this. This could be a practical MBA for you. You could take all of these lessons and put them into a catering business. So they really sold me on that this was going to be the stepping stone that was going to take me to the next level of my life. What I didn't realize was that the more I committed to the coaching path, the more I was losing the rest of my life. So that's a red flag in itself that I thought, oh, I'm just individuating. So I'm spending less time with my family or I'm just really busy. So I'm not seeing my friends as much or at one point I was like going

on castings around here in LA and I just stopped doing all of that and I was solely focused on NXIVM and that is a very similar trait to anybody who has been in a one-on-one coercive domestic abuse situation all of a sudden you're isolated But I was isolated with a community around me that was enforcing that I was on the right path. So that felt awesome. But that is gnarly. Yeah. Because that's a whole different level. Exactly. So imagine, like I like to use this example because it takes the average woman seven times to leave an abusive relationship. Now imagine imagine that but with a group that's supporting these new ways of being it's very difficult to question that because also i saw them as

authority figures too and so then from there i now like in my early 20s and i'm becoming a coach i'm doing trainings i'm doing all of this work for free thinking that I'm learning and building skills, which I was learning things, but you can learn those things elsewhere and be paid and like it can be ethically dead. They weren't paying you for coaching? No, because it was like a mentorship in their mind. And so I'm just spending money on courses, on money that I don't have. So I'm taking out credit cards and making really bad financial decisions and spending whatever savings I had for college on that, thinking that this was going to be my way out. And was your mom out of the program at this point?

She was kind of in and out as a student, but was definitely not committed in the way that I was. Okay. So you had like the new group of people that were growing with you. New family that like feels really supportive and feels really exciting. And it's like, I am now in my twenties and I'm individuating and all of that feels amazing. But at the same time, I'm not really getting anywhere. So I'm just spinning my wheels thinking that it's my problem, that I'm not progressing, not thinking that this is all very calculated strategies that high control groups use in order to move you in the way that they want. They'll stagnant, they'll stop you from growing in order to then redirect you. So five years in, after all this indoctrination, after

all of this grooming, after years of this education, I'm approached by Allison Mack about DOS, which was the sub secret sorority within NXIVM that was supposed to be exclusively women coaching. So at that point, I think I was 24. And once again, I was still really young. Yeah, I'm still really young. And I had hit a really low point. And just personally, I've always kind of struggled with depression and anxiety. And so I was at an extra low point at that time in my life. And I was feeling like I'm not moving forward in ESP. And Allison was like excelling. And she was becoming a proctor, which was the sash that you could make money. She was starting a new business that had to do with acting, which was like really moving to her and all of this stuff that I wanted for myself in my own way.

So when she approached me and started to tell me a little bit about this program that she was in that had helped her so much, I was really open to it. And I was like, I want that. Whatever you have, I want. And for context, who is Allison Mack for anyone who doesn't know who that is? Allison Mack is an actress she's known for a tv show called smallville which i never watched but i think a lot of people did and she was in nexium before i was and she then created dos with keith ranieri and his other

first line dos slaves that were directly under him. They created this program and then they recruited other women and kind of like a science experiment practiced these tactics on us and then reported everything back to Keith. And where was Keith? What do you mean tactics? Like they were doing things, restricted eating, so restricted sleep, physical challenges and punishments, branding, which eventually happened to us as well. And a series of other things that they were saying were like a boot camp, but for women to get stronger. So once again, they were using a lot of language, but ultimately it was kind of like butchered feminism because none of it really actually made sense.

It was just kind of fragments that made sense that you could say, okay, I could accept that logic a little. Or they would just have a justification for why you should just do it. And at this time, was Keith in your life and in your sphere? Or was he still still this like figure in the background that you're aspiring to one day like have more activity with or interaction with yeah you know at that point he was like I never went to to ESP for Keith like I guess what I was trying to ask is like is he like is he puppeteering this oh yes yeah okay he is 100% he's puppeteering this oh yes yeah okay 100 he's puppeteering the whole thing and you have no idea and he's on top of it the way that he is protected in the community is through a lot of like internal

propaganda he doesn't have sex he's a vegetarian he doesn't make money or take money from any of this what they're saying this is all the things that, basically they're saying like, he's a monk and you should be lucky to spend time with him. So already you have that in your head that you should, this is like a reverential thing that you should be glad to meet him. But in the documentary,

we see him kiss you guys on the cheek and that gave me- Not just the, no, the lips, the straight lips. No, I went for the cheek. If you could see. You went for the cheek. But the people were going straight into the lips. I know. So know so did you guys all think huh this is weird that he's

like they're making him this like version when he's not for sure but i also believe the bullshit because i didn't have any other reason to not at that point i'm five years in and nothing has happened with keith he's like maybe said hi to me once or twice, said volleyball or something. Like, we don't have a relationship at that point. So cut to, I've already given an enormous amount of collateral to Allison, which is blackmail to be in this secret sorority and they're telling you that you need to give continual blackmail in order to keep your word so that you won't back out of things that are difficult like having I don't know like having a really intense personal trainer who then you say if I don't show up to the gym I have to pay you an extra hundred dollars like that was the way that they were posing collateral as but in reality it was just blackmail so that you didn't have the option to leave so when did you start did you get into DOS and when did you start to

like really get deep into it or it was consuming every day there was no on or off switch for DOS like when I was in it was on but what is are you seven days a week there? And what are you doing? Yeah, actually at first, so I didn't say yes right away to Allison when she approached me. I took about a month because I was nervous about it. I didn't know this woman very well. She was asking me for a really big commitment that was also super ambiguous.

And I was feeling really fractured in my life. Like I didn't really have anybody else to go to but her at that point and so when I said yes to her cut to a couple months later I'm instructed by her to relocate to Albany and to live with her but I didn't know that instruction had come from Keith and that it was all strategic and intentional. So then I'm living with Allison Mack and my life is totally saturated with DOS, with NXIVM, with practices, with reading and writing and reporting and like a very regimented lifestyle. Can you give us like a day to day?

Because for someone, I don't know what you mean. Like, do you mean you wake up at six and you're like, what do you mean? Yeah. I'm trying to remember. In my book, I break down every detail of a couple examples of days because sometimes it would be reporting from 6 a.m., wake up, do my morning check-ins with Allison, report. I had to report my weight every single day. I had to get on the scale and measure myself, then go and measure my food and my calories and report those calories to Allison, ask permission to eat them, and then eat. So my whole life was really more about what I can eat, when I can eat, how much energy I have to complete my tasks, and how I'm going

to make sure that Allison is happy. So very little time to be objective. Let's talk about no days wasted, okay? We all need a little support when it comes to having a couple of drinks so we can get back to feeling our best the next day. I know I do. I was out with a friend the other night and I'm telling you I was having fun and I took two capsules after my first couple drinks and basically it just goes to work. So if you're having a fun night out with friends or you're having some wine watching Housewives and you want to have a great productive day the day after then you got to try no days wasted so what's in it because you know i have to ask all the details is it's called dhm detox and it's this amazing

herbal supplement which is essentially a vitamin for when you drink and i really got down to all the details about it and basically what DHM detox does is it helps boost your body's natural response to alcohol and helps you break down the toxins. If you're not a fan of brain fog and you don't want to feel gross the next day I'm telling you when I took two capsules while I was drinking I woke up I was ready to go I had a pep in my step. If you're having a real party night where like things you're getting down you know what I mean you're dancing on tables whatever you're doing you can even double up and take two packets. It's up to you. Valentine's Day is around the corner for Michael and I, and we definitely plan on going

out and having some red wine, maybe a bottle or two. And I'm definitely bringing my no days wasted. I feel like I can maximize every life's moment and I don't have to suffer the next morning. You know what I mean? This is a completely risk-free purchase. So if you guys don't love it, they'll refund you on your first box. So it's an easy decision, right? It's all about being preventative. Also, I gave my friend two capsules to try and we were both drinking and having fun and

she woke up the next morning feeling great too. So I got you guys 20% off your order and free shipping in the US. All you have to do is head over to nodayswasted.co slash skinny and use promo code skinny at checkout. That's nodayswasted.co slash skinny for 20% off your order. I'm telling you, I'm down with this. This is my kind of purchase, okay? How does Allison have time to act and do all this stuff when she's monitoring what someone else eats? Because she started to not. She started to only focus on DOS, and a lot of her work was only coming from the company. And she was being financially compensated for not only things related to DOS, but things related to her work in NXIVM. But there was, they meshed.

So looking back, is she a predator? Was she blackmailed? Or is it both? It's both. Yeah. But it's like, I guess. Sounds like it's both. I guess that's why I made the Scientology analogy.

It's like you get an Allison type person who's a known actress and has a fan base. And then you bring her to the program and then you start compensating her. And it's like, what it does is it validates it to everybody else. That's a known person who's got their shit together who's already successful, right? And she is being treated different than someone like you or any other person is because she's getting compensated and she's getting taken care of. And so it's like she gets these perks. So maybe in her mind, she doesn't realize that it's not the same experience for everybody else. The same way like maybe a Tom Cruise would not recognize that like Scientology is not the same for everybody else as it is for him.

True. And you could say the same for me in a certain sense because I lived with Allison that I felt like that gave me a certain level of protection almost that some of the other women might not have felt. And it was like, if I can just keep this woman pleased with me and happy and just like clean her house and make her food and make sure that there's gas in her car and do my tasks and be friendly, then everything's going to be okay. At one point, did you ever question yourself and say, wait, this is weird that I'm weighing my food. This is weird, like this circumstance. Yes, but questions were not looked upon. Like questioning came with a lot of punishment or just, it just wasn't.

What's a form of punishment? There could be physical punishments and that would be like cold showers or more restricted calories or having to do long walks in the cold. Like there are a variety of things that were just uncomfortable and just inhumane when somebody is forcing you to do those things. Like taking a walk in the cold by yourself is not a big deal.

Like if you want to do it, but being forced to do those yourself is not a big deal like if you want to do it but being forced to do those things is not humane and what is even more interesting is not only being forced but you haven't had any food for fuel right and you're sleep sleep deprived so it's like how weak can we get you and that's the easiest way to manipulate someone is through food first. And it wasn't until after I left that I realized a lot of times pimps do this with prostitutes and they will control the way they eat. I even remember when I watched the R. Kelly documentary, how he used to ration food to them and ask, they would have to ask permission to come into the kitchen. And I just, my mouth just dropped.

And this was when I was already out and I was with my mom and with back with my family and I was having like a lot of PTSD. And those types of things just reminded me about the reality of the situation that I was in. And it gave me clarity clarity but it was also really scary yeah I'm sure I'm sure I want to ask about your relationship with your mom at this point you said you guys were best friends growing up you joined together yeah and right now like with the Alice and Mac thing what is she thinking she's not happy she's not she's starting to see that there's cracks. And also the thing that I wasn't able to see that my mom was that I was losing, like my life was becoming smaller and smaller, whereas I thought it was growing and that I was expanding. That was not the case. Like my life was, I lived in Clifton Park. It's like a tiny little town in upstate New York. And I wasn't able to make enough money there.

I was just living the life of a student, a student of NXIVM. And I was totally consumed by this cult. And my mom was able to see that. And I just thought, oh, she just doesn't like what I'm doing. I thought it was as simple as that. Like, oh, my mom's just not happy with my life choices. Not that she actually saw that this was a bigger problem. Was there drugs or alcohol? No, nothing. No. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. It was actually like kind of looked down upon. So that's kind of been funny to reenter the world. So what do you think Keith's like overall intention was? I mean, it's obviously he's making money.

Then he's like, what is like, what was the end goal for NXIVM for him? It was like to keep growing and growing and growing. even more diabolical because he is that crazy. And I think he thought that by creating DOS and by having NXIVM be this, air quotes, really powerful company, that he would be able to control politics, that he would be able to control large amounts of money. It was all about power. So even when all of this was coming into the news and it was like sex cult sex cult sex cult it's like it's not about sex and that was something that i kind of had to learn when i came out of this group that really these types of people and these sorts of predators it's more about power and control yeah like the sex was part of the power trip yes yeah like the harvey weinsteins like the jeffrey absteins it's all a very similar type of strategy it makes sense power is the number one thing so when does this all start to

unravel and when do you start to say like wait a minute like this is because going from self improvement to branding which we could talk about is obviously like a very accelerated leap also in just playing off what michael said was there an epiphany where you woke up one day and you thought, wait, what the fuck is going on? I wish there was, but there wasn't until after I left. And how hard is it to leave? It's very hard. And I think I was actually one of the people that stayed in longer compared to many other people who had left and a lot of really brave people left before me and they put their necks out to make sure that there was noise being made and that people were becoming more aware of really what was going on inside of this group and I was still on the inside so I was

looking at those people who also included my mother I mean there was a lot of people who left like they were utterly crazy. Like, what are you talking about? This is my stupid little boring life in Albany. Like, leave me alone. Why are you causing so much trouble? Like, that's how I saw it from within the group. Additionally, it started to progress. And they were saying, your mother's a psychopath. She's trying to destroy us. She's trying to hurt you. She's trying to hurt your friends. And that was scary because I trusted these people, but I also knew that my mom wasn't really trying to hurt me. So it wasn't like I had an epiphany. It was more that question of, is this really real? Is my mom really trying to hurt me? I couldn't get down with that fully because I just knew too much.

Like, this is my mom. This is my mom that loves me. But I also knew that maybe she was just confused and that this would all fade away once we realized each other's differences. Like, that's the simplicity of the situation. That's how I was seeing it at the time when I was still in the group. It wasn't until after I left that I saw things and I was like, holy shit, they were right. Then how did you decide to leave? I think it was just instinct.

Like you just woke up one day and you were like, I need to leave? There was two things. One, I wasn't able to get work when I was in Albany and I needed money. And so I was kind of frantically trying to get jobs, but it wasn't happening. One, because I think people were catching on to NXIVM and the group and my involvement. And so that was scary for me.

And I ended up applying to like 20 different jobs in New York City and was praying like, okay, I really just hope that one of these works out so that I can have something that people can't just take away from me. Because at that moment, I thought my whole life was just falling apart and I was losing everything that I had thought I was in control of, which I wasn't. So cut to, I leave Albany, I go to New York City. I had to ask Allison for permission to do that. At that point, I was still very much in.

And she said, yes. And I end up getting a job in the East Village. And I told my boss at the time, I was like, I know you don't know me, but I'm a really, really hard worker. And I will even work for free for these first two weeks. And if you think that I'm worthy of pay and to join your team, like, please just give me a job if you think I'm worth it. And he was like, sure, free work, two weeks. Great. So I worked my ass off and I was working 14 hour days because I just wanted

to disappear from my chaotic life. And I dove into working in food and I kind of started to reconnect with the real world and although I wasn't totally out at that point it was helping me to distance myself so then is this before you were branded or is this after you were branded? This is after. This is after. And this is right around the time that Keith gets arrested in, he gets arrested in Mexico in March. And then April, Allison gets arrested. When Allison was arrested, I was still in New York. I'm still there working, trying to keep a job. Paparazzis are like chasing me all over the East Village.

It was really terrifying. I was just trying to go to work and be normal. And that wasn't happening for me very well. It was nerve wracking. And when Allison was arrested, though, that was a moment that like hit me really hard because I thought, holy shit, like what what's going to happen to me? It was like the first moment that I actually really felt afraid appropriately because through, I mean, this I'm cutting back, but through the indoctrination and through the tools that NXIVM used, they dismantled a lot of our feelings about things, our natural instincts, our gut feelings.

And one of those things included like feeling fear appropriately. And so I wasn't afraid. It's so interesting though, because it almost tricked you into thinking that you were a predator when you were actually a huge victim. And I couldn't see it. And I couldn't even say that I was a victim. That is so crazy. Yeah. Yeah. You nailed it. It's like, that's how twisted these things are. And that's how twisted coercion is and gaslighting and all of these things that we're now learning about more and that i'm learning about more is that you do get to the point where you don't believe yourself anymore which is so sad let's they try to take the

intuition out they try to remove the intuition your grandmother seems like an interesting character she seems like she wasn't having this oh she was not she was not she's the best what did she say she was like it's bull she was like this bullshit this fucking bullshit she hated nancy hated keith thought he was a little crumbly troll i love grandma's no if you ever have a question go to your grandma and ask like a compass that's why we need like a new grandma podcast we need it you need to do a grandma podcast i'm on it i'm on it when they branded you is that like a like another i'm on it i'm on it when they branded you is that like a like another sash is that like a level of like oh my god like you're

so lucky or is that is that something negative no it was more like the first thing it was more a positive thing okay so the way that it was spun for us was as if we were pledging and we were being loyal and we were going through this very difficult and painful thing to bond and to like go to the next level of our commitment like that was the way it was proposed like oh navy seals get tattoos together it's really empowering so a part of me was like okay i mean like i have tattoos i can get into that but i had never been branded like i had never experienced a cauterizing pen without anesthesia so i had no fucking reference to what i was agreeing to and i was actually the first woman that was branded by dr danielle roberts who was in my group of four

women underneath allison so there was no option for us to say no at that point like we were too compromised. We were collateralized. We were sleep deprived. Did you think, oh, she's a doctor? Yeah. And also she was kind of becoming my friend. And so I believed what Allison told us, which was this is going to be like a bonding experience.

This is going to bring you guys together. It's going to prove how tough you are. And it is a symbol of the elements that you're being branded with. And I was like, OK, sure. Like, I didn't have the option to say, nah, bitch, I'm leaving. Like, that wasn't going to happen. I mean, I can laugh about it now. But in that moment, I was really scared.

And I couldn't express how afraid I was because that was not how you did things inside the group. I end up being branded, which takes about 30 minutes and it was really painful. And it was really- 30 minutes of like, from the time, like holding on you or? No, so it's not like, it's not a- Not like a cattle brand. No, it's not like a cattle brand

because I know some fraternities and sororities do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a funny story about that actually. You got to be careful when you do that and you move. Remember when you've never seen Jackass when they try to do the, and he moved and then it like went everywhere. Well, so that's why we were held down because you can convulse and you don't, your body just reacts and nerves fire and you can move

and it can really screw you up. So I was being held down with my hands and my feet by people who I had become really close to. And so it was like this out-of-body weird experience where I just remember watching myself and kind of like looking down and thinking, oh, this is going to be much bigger than what they told us because it one it was taking about 30 minutes and i could see that the line was going from like my side of my tummy all the way to my hip bone and so it was i'm sure it was painful it was very painful but i couldn't process that pain like i was on a lot of adrenaline and i just remember kind of crying, but not feeling, not knowing why I was crying and feeling really mood, but not understanding why.

And after I left, my mom and I, we had talked about this experience extensively. And for a while, I couldn't even talk about it without like getting too shaky. And she said that these types of ritualistic practices are very common in high control groups or just in abusive relationships or dynamics because it dehumanizes you.

And it is also a way to separate you from your body. So that's just like one more example of what they did. Also, I'm sure you were hungry and you're tired and those three things together. Totally. It's like full mind control. You can see, you can totally see how that was set up. And you, and I could also see how there were other women in the room who resisted. And when they were resisted, they were met with a lot of violence and not always physical, but sometimes people don't need to be physically abused. They can be yelled at and it can be just as terrifying for them. It just depends on how you behave.

Because some people reacted worse to physical violence, but were more moved by verbal abuse, like me, for example. Whereas that could be the opposite for someone else. And they know that. And they know how to use you. Did your relationship with Keith change throughout or was it always like you didn't talk to Keith and you only talked to Allison Mack? No, it changed. So when I was instructed to move to Albany, I was also given the seduction assignment from Allison Mack, which I didn't know what that meant at the time. And she said, you are going to have to seduce Keith. We go into this extensively in Seduced, the docuseries, hence the title.

And it basically shows you the process of grooming and how this is just like one step closer to being used being used sexually or financially and for me it was a little it was a little bit of both in that sense but he's giving he's giving the order to her i have no idea so he knows okay so he's wanting this to happen but he's but you're from your mind it's like you're to make you're doing the challenge to try to get him even though he's okay even though he's already aware so that's the part that's that was really difficult for me to figure out and it took me a while to understand like why would somebody do that and then i realized oh it's all for his own pleasure and desire it's like

that's what he wanted he wanted it to look consensual like all these women were just coming to him begging him to be with him and I had no interest in being his girlfriend. During that seduction assignment, I remember thinking, oh, okay, great. Like the photograph is over. He's going to send it to Allison and then we'll be done. And I thought that was going to be my biggest challenge. And I even remember thinking like the rest of DOS is going to be easy compared to this because it was it was scary and he he was someone who i looked to as a superior and an authority figure like a principal not like someone who i was interested in going after wait so you're told the whole time that he's this monk that doesn't have sex and this and that and all of a sudden like wasn't it like the wizard of oz where this is pulled off and he's exposed for what he is or did you is it no because he's still playing a role so it's like

you're you're seducing this monk that's this pure right and allison's telling me he's the safest person that you can like do this on he would never do anything bad to you and i'm believing allison because what am i supposed to do allison's Allison's relationship with him? It's like, is she? She is a direct slave of his. Okay. In this master-slave setup. So after that seduction assignment is completed, Keith proceeds to tell me that he's my grandmaster and I'm like, okay, like, what is that?

Because I'm still coming to terms with what DOS is because so much of it was left out in the initial recruitment process, obviously. But my relationship with Keith changed after that tremendously. And I started to believe that he was really a friend. And so I opened up to him and I remember multiple walks just feeling like, wow, this guy really gets me. I can share anything with him. But there was always a little bit of a hesitation because I knew there was no on off switch for Doss. So he ultimately still had control over me, even though he was playing as if we were friends. So when did you start to move away and when did that disconnect

happen? That happened more after Allison's arrest. So when I was living in New York City and working and then towards that summer of 2018 I reconnected with my mom who I had not really had any communication with for about nine months, almost a year, actually. Wow. And so at that point, I meet my then boyfriend, now fiance, who is a chef at the restaurant. Thank you. Where is he a chef? He's a chef for himself right now.

He's a pizza chef specifically. Oh, my God. And so we have a sidebar. We just took a mobile pizza oven from Texas and brought it all the way back to L.A. to kind of test out. Why the fuck don't you make me pizza? That sounds so good. He's really good. He studied in Italy. It's his passion. He's crazy about it. I never knew I would have so much pizza in my life but I do so I met him there and he was just so kind with me and so caring and he studied journalism in college and so his approach with me was so respectful like I remember at one point we were talking and he took me out for ice cream and I start kind of like telling the story as if I'm trying to conceal a lot of

parts of the story of my life because I was so embarrassed at that stage and I was scared of people's judgment of me and he just was like no I've read everything right and I was like no he's never gonna want to date me he's gonna think I'm crazy he's like gonna think I'm fucked up damaged goods all of these things and he yeah, I've read it all, but I really rather just hear from you. And I was like, wow, really? Like you actually don't think I'm crazy or you don't think I'm fucked up or this stupid like cult girl, whatever the headlines were at that point. And so I started to just kind of share with him and he really became my friend and my ally and he has stood by me through all of this and has

been very supportive because he does not identify me with nexium what's so crazy to me is that the trauma that you went for is gonna or went through is gonna help so many people that's the coolest thing what you've done with the trauma you've've used it as fuel. And like you have this documentary and your book and your second book. I mean, that's so incredible. It's like you must look back and you must say, I really learned so much out of this and I can take so many tools and help other people. I certainly hope so. I mean, like that's why I even called my book Still Learning because I have learned so much. I've learned so much about myself, so much about the world that I just didn't know. And I'm still learning a lot. And I want to continue to do this kind of work. And I've started to work with my mom on her foundation, which is

called the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation. And she started that even before I was out of NXIVM and was providing therapy and resources for people who had left even before I was out. And that just like, I can't, it's hard to even talk about it because it just shows like the type of woman that she is. And that even though I wasn't out, she still held hope and still was a security blanket for many people who didn't have

families to go to or she sounds amazing she sounds like an amazing you and her have to come back on the podcast together when you launch your second book what can we expect from your second book and also can you leave us with some resources of anyone who is listening that's it may be in a cult like atmosphere yes of course. Like we talked about before we started, I am not a licensed counselor. I'm not a therapist. I have gotten an abundance of messages, so many heartfelt messages from people who have been in similar and different situations. So for me, I think that RAINN is a huge resource for people, and I'm looking forward to working more with them. FACT, Families Against Cultic Teachings, is huge.

They offer therapy and grants to people, and I'm working with them as well. And then the Katherine Oxenberg Foundation is mine and my mom's, which is tiny, but we're trying to make it more robust because there are a lot of people out there who really do need the right type of resources because it's not the same kind of therapist for everyone. So I know that therapy and healing is nuanced and that's actually what I'm looking to write about in the second book is just kind of a roadmap and using my experiences. There's this really wonderful book that I'm very inspired by, and I would love to do an updated version of that and have it more for our generation. And I believe that philosophy through and through

because I've experienced it myself and I've seen it with other people. And I knew that when I came out of NXIVM, I wanted to run away to the mountains, change my name, and say, like, F everybody. I don't want to talk to anyone. But I really, like, had to sit with myself and say, like, this isn't going anywhere. Like, in order to get through this, I have to go all in. I have to go head first.

Because I just think that these things don't just disappear. They stay with you or they manifest in a different relationship or you get into another stupid work environment where you're being used. Like, it's better to just deal with it however uncomfortable it is. And just so we can round out the story, Allison and Keith, are they in jail for good? Like, what's happening there? Keith Ranieri was recently sentenced to 120 years in prison, which was like a huge victory for us. And I spoke at that sentencing and it was really, really empowering.

Good closure for me. Allison Mack is still under house arrest. She doesn't have a sentencing date yet. And are they the only two that are sentenced or is there more? No, Claire Bronfman was sentenced to seven years in prison. And right now I think she's, you know,

somewhere in a women's detention center in the East Coast. So those are the three. Then you also have Nancy Salzman, Lauren Salzman, Kathy Russell.

There was, I think, seven co-defendants that Keith had, six or seven. But he's done, he's gone for good. He's gone for good.

120 years is a statement. And predators don't do well in there. Nope. Well, you're rising like a phoenix. And congratulations on everything you have going on. I'm so inspired by you. You are welcome to come back on. You can come back alone with your mom whenever your book comes out.

Thank you. I want everyone to follow you on Instagram and buy your book. So pimp yourself out. Free mic. Okay. I am on Instagram because that's as much social media as i can handle it's under india oxenberg my name and my book is on audible exclusively called still learning and you have a documentary i do have a documentary amazing and that was wonderful and totally reinvigorating. It got me back in the groove of production, which I love. That is called Seduced, and you can watch that on Starz.

And we're trying to convince you to start a podcast to add something to your podcast. Oh, I like this idea. Thank you for coming on. Thank you, India. You're amazing. Thank you, guys. Do you want to win a copy of India's book? All you have to do is tell us who you want to hear or see next on The Skinny Confidential,

him and her show, on my latest Instagram the skinny confidential and one of us will drop into your inbox and send you her book it is so good you're gonna love it and as always make sure you rate and review the show it's how we grow the show tell a friend