The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - How To Unlock Your Full Potential & Creativity With Renowned Artist, Jason Naylor

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

#354: On this episode we are joined by world renowned artist Jason Naylor. Jason joins the show today to discuss how we can unlock our full potential and connect with our creative side. We also discuss how important it is for us to take time to disconnect from our day to day lives and remember to connect with our child like creativity and mind.  To connect with Jason Naylor click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM This episode is brought to you by Rothy's Rothy's comfortable, washable and sustainable shoes and bags make getting dressed easy. Rothy's shoes are incredibly comfortable with zero break-in period thanks to their seemlessly knit-to-shape design. With many styles to choose from, Rothy's shoes are the perfect way to add some comfort and style to your closet. Check out all the amazing shoes, bags and masks available right now at www.rothys.com/skinny  This episode is brought to you by BETABRAND and their Betabrand dress pant yoga pants. To try these pants go to betabrand.com/skinny and receive 20% off your order. Millions of women agree these are the most comfortable pants you’ll ever wear to work.  This episode is brought to you by Phexxi Phexxi® (lactic acid, citric acid, and potassium bitartrate) Vaginal Gel 1.8%, 1%, 0.4% is a hormone-free, prescription birth control used only before sex. Phexxi works to maintain the vaginal pH level to prevent pregnancy and you only use it when you need it! Be sure to tell your healthcare provider if you have a recent history of 3 or more UTIs per year. Learn more, including all risks at Phexxi.com Produced by Dear Media

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fucking love it. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. I believe that creativity is not taught or learned. I think it's unlearned. So if you look at the way Zaza, like let's talk about Zaza, right? Like how does she operate? She operates out of sheer curiosity. You watch her and she's like looking around, reaching for things, like touching. She just wants to like explore and learn. So that's creativity. In my opinion, like that's the kind of thing that we start telling kids, like don't do that. Stop doing this. Don't make a mess.

And over time, I think creativity is like unlearned. Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her podcast. I am so excited for this episode. My friend, Jason Naylor, he is a world famous artist, is on the podcast. And in this episode, we just talk about living creatively, how to let your freak flag fly. We also discuss having, and this was really interesting for me, having a kid and letting them just explore their creative side. We go all over the place in this episode. Jason is sober. We talk about that. We talk about art, creativity, entrepreneurship, all the things. It's a really casual conversation, kind of like you guys are just spying on our convo. It's going to bring you a lot of value. I know you're going to love it. Jason is such a major artist. He has worked with Fenty. He has

worked with Rag & Bone, Guesswatches, Coach, Pepsi, Sephora. I mean, oh my gosh, like everyone. He also started off with Mac, no big deal. And his girlfriend, Jules Wick, is one of my very good friends who's also insanely talented. They're an incredible couple. And I could not be more excited to introduce you to Jason Naylor, who is a world famous artist, designer, creative director, and author. He wrote the book, Live Life Colorfully, 99 Ideas to Add Joy, Positivity, and Creativity to Your Life. It's available on Amazon. It's crushing it. Check it out. Let's meet Jason Naylor. This is The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

So Jason has been front and center with my tits. You probably know Lauren's boobs just as good as I do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like every facet. But when you did them, they were like real perky because I just got them done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think so. Pretty big canvas to work off of. What was the canvas? Too big canvas. So Jason, I paper mached my tits with Keep A Breast to support breast cancer. And Jason got to come in and paint them hot Barbie pink. And if you want to scroll back on my Instagram, you can see them. You can see every crevice and nipple.

There's still, we still have them. It's amazing. Yeah. And then when we were done, you sent me a couple of pictures and you're like, is it better from the front or from the angle? Do you remember that? Yes. So I was like, I think the angle, we're like analyzing it.

I want to go back and we're going to give you an intro later. So I just want to go back to your childhood. When did you start to get interested in what you're doing? And did your parents do something to support that interest? So I think I've always been like, as long as I can remember, this has been part of me. Like, I was a kid with the homework that was just like destroyed with my doodling and I was always doing art my mom's an artist my mom is like a portrait like figurative artist like she she paints things and draws things that you know what they are. What do you mean? Like like she doesn't do abstract artwork. Yeah you have to like explain the different kinds because someone like me doesn't know all the different kinds okay so like think of like a portrait artist what what a portrait artist artist does is they take either a person like you you're sitting here and i draw

a picture and it's of you okay right that's figurative meaning that like you can see what the art is okay abstract art is like just designs like colorful could be like black lines in like a pattern or something and it's all about like the emotion it's all about the visceral experience of the art which is what you do it's more what i do yeah but then there's also like bring you can bring in like design which brings in like typography and lettering and communication and that's that's a big part of what i do. So my art is a combination of abstract art and design. Okay. So in your childhood, your mom was into portrait and she maybe inspired that side of you? She really like fostered it. I mean, she supported

it all the way along. Both my parents did, to be honest with you. But my dad was kind of like, what are you going to do with your art? Like I originally started studying architecture in college because I knew that I liked something creative. I knew that I was like a creative person. I knew that I was going to do something visual, but I thought I got to make a, like make a living. So to me, architecture was the solution for that.

And then I got into like into the path of studying architecture and it's all math. And I was like, fuck this. Oh shit. Like I couldn't do that. I didn't know that. Like advanced math. You got to know all the math. I didn't know that. Like advanced math. You got to know all the angles. You got to know how everything's structured.

Like an architect has to know how to stand up a little structure, a home. So you have to be creative and also be mathematical. Well, I don't want to dive into what it takes to be an architect because I don't have what it takes. That's what this whole episode

was going to be about. That's why we brought you on. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, we're going to dive into what it is to be an architect we have a huge architect listening listen or listenership of architects that we needed i'm just kidding yeah so okay so shout out shout out to all of you who can do math because i was like okay so i want to talk about what you think sparks the creativity in a child besides that your parents are artistic? Because I hope to encourage Zaza to be really creative. I don't want to push anything on her, but at the same time,

I want to encourage that. So what does that look like? Buying kids an art set or is it way more than that? How can we get her to make million dollar paintings? NFTs. Yeah, NFTs. Yeah, seriously. I believe that creativity is not taught or learned. I think it's unlearned. So if you look at the way Zaza, like let's talk about Zaza, right? Like how does she operate? She operates out of sheer curiosity. Like everything she does, I mean, I'm assuming, right? You watch her and she's like looking around, reaching for things, like touching. She just wants to like explore and learn so that's creativity in my opinion like that's the kind of thing that we start telling kids like don't do that stop doing this don't make a mess and over time i think creativity is like unlearned huh yeah so i think creativity is very inherent in all people so should we give her a space like the garage to like do whatever the fuck she wants and like give her just paint brushes and say paint it up like you you may see that she has an aptitude like visual arts is a very like it's like an easy application of creativity when you think creative you're like oh that person's an artist

that's that's such a limited channel creativity could be so many like varied things but i would say as you see her like showing aptitude you should just foster it like do whatever it takes to give her room to grow yeah i think that's such a good i think that's so smart we talk about the school system and there's listen there's great schools for creativity but i think most traditional school structures like they teach you how to fit in a box and follow a certain path which is why that's my personal problem with it and i don't know how you fix it i'm not an expert on school systems but it's like you do this everyone does everyone does the same tests. You follow the same line, the same graduation path, the same courses and structures. And over time, you're almost learning that

stepping outside of those boxes is the wrong thing to do, which is, I think stifles, not just creativity, but many things. Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. And it's that system that like channels everybody, like molds everybody into the same direction, into the same path and into the same mindset. Yeah. I know from talking to you that you grew up Mormon too. Yeah. And you grew up in Utah?

Yeah. Okay. Can you talk about that playing into creativity or did it not affect you either way? I was just having this conversation with someone the other day. And I think that in a way, Mormonism and Salt Lake City, the place where I grew up, I think it kind of like pushed me in a creative way with a rebellion. Like, I think that in order to figure out who I am and like what my voice is and what my style is, I kind of had to rebel against a bunch of things, including Mormonism, even my family a little bit. Like I had to have an exodus from those, like the mindset and those channels that I had been like forced into. And so I think that in rebelling against all those things, it maybe rejuvenated the creativity that I had in me all along, you know, but that had been stifled by some of those

cultural things. Makes total sense. Yeah. And are you practicing Mormon anymore? No. And why'd you decide to leave? Well, let me revise that actually, because I think there are some principles of Mormonism that I still... We just had someone on the podcast that said this, so I would love to...

We've been talking about this subject a lot. Yeah, I would love to hear what your thoughts are. You could pick apart any religion, including Mormonism, and like piecemeal things, values that you think are important, that are valuable. So for me, it's like I learned about honesty. I learned about like integrity.

I learned about like hard work, dedication, like all these things that I find to be very valuable in my life and in my practice. Those are things that I learned from Mormonism. So does that make you a Mormon if you do those things? Yes. No. Like it's irrelevant. But the point is like that's where I got my value system.

What was it like growing up and being in high school and being told you can't drink, you can't smoke because we have a mutual friend, Brono. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and, and he talked a little bit when he came on the podcast about his experience with that in high school, I was hanging from the bar, like drunk. So I can imagine how it would be if someone said, you're not allowed to do this and drink coffee and all the things you can't do. What was that like? Did you just rebel against that? Well, I kind of did, actually. I think that concept divides people.

It divides people into the rule breakers and the rule followers. When you say you can't drink, half the people, generally speaking, are going to be like, okay, they said we can't. And then the other half are going to be like okay they said we can't and then the other half are going to be like oh yeah really and I'm kind of that person I'm defiant like that and so for me it was it was almost like being told that I can't do something drove me to do it but I didn't I wasn't like a big drinker or partier in high school per se like I was pretty like on the straight and narrow and you still don't drink if I remember correctly well I actually don't and you still don't drink if i remember correctly well i actually don't drink anymore you don't drink anymore yeah you're sober now right i

am sober yeah so i drank all the drinks like if everybody's entitled to three million drinks in life i already finished mine did you really well i mean we talked about i didn't know no i didn't know that you drank all the drinks i just thought you were sober no no i i like lived life right to the end and then so so you just were a huge partier. Yeah. What was the epiphany to stop drinking? I mean, it started to be that it was affecting my work and my health. Like I was starting to have stomach problems a little bit. And then I would get so like shaky and like sick from needing to drink that I couldn't paint or draw. And so at that point, it was like I'm like trying to draw and like my hands would be so shaky from needing alcohol that I had to quit. Did you just wake up one day and

say, I'm going to quit and then go to rehab or did you just stop? No, it was, it was like, I started to feel this like trapped feeling. I think it was probably, let's call it six months. There was six months of time. Like the last six months of me drinking was me like on a daily basis feeling like I'm a slave to this and i can't stop it and like i don't know what i'm gonna do and that panic started to like really solidify to where it drove me to to quit and so then i did a detox for a week and then i just never drank again i've never done 12 steps or like aa i've never been that's rare rare though. I've never heard someone say that. Yeah. You just stopped? Yeah. And was the detox brutal? So I took Librium. Okay. What is that? It's a medication that basically, I mean, I don't know chemically

what it does, but it makes it so you don't need alcohol and it puts you to sleep for like a week. So I just was like a zombie for like a week. And then Jules and I went and stayed in a hotel and like she just hung out and I was sort of like in and out of sleep and I went and stayed in a hotel, and she just hung out, and I was sort of in and out of sleep and watching TV for a week, but in this sort of state. So let me ask you this. Do you classify yourself as a recovering addict or an addict, or do you classify yourself as someone

that just was taking it too far? I'm just a person. It sounds like he doesn't put labels on anything. Yeah, I don't like the label of it, because sober, what does that mean to you? Because in recovery, people do put the label on it, And I think maybe that helps. I'm not in the program from who we've talked to it. It sounds like it helps them stay in the program and like the label in some cases helps, but maybe in your case, the label would not help.

Yeah. I think in my case, the label would be a problem. And I like, I can't speak to anyone else's recovery, but for me, I just, like, I don't necessarily need a group. I was going to say, I don't need a system or a regiment. I do need one, but I was able to create my own. And what is that system and routine? Like, is it a morning routine? Is it like a meditation system? What do you do to sort of replace that? Well, so a big part of it is my art. I think without my art, I would not necessarily have been able to do it. I don't know. It's hard to say, but my art is a huge part of it. I have a very daily practice of creating. I have an iPad Pro and I just do all my sketching in the iPad Pro and I do it every

single day. But I have a pretty solid regimen. I wake up at seven in the morning. I have an hour of time to do something that stimulates my brain that's not social media. And like it could be like read the news because I don't get like hung up on the news. It could be like listen to a podcast. It could be just like read something online that I'm interested in. And then after that hour, like I'll do a little bit of social media and then I work out every single morning. I alternate weights and then Peloton. Okay. Except for Sundays because that's like the day of rest, you know. So I stick to that schedule, like religiously.

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They have all different colors. Find out why women are buying five different pairs of these pants. You're going to go to betabrand.com slash skinny for 25% off. Drop me a DM and let me know how much you love them. How does one become a better artist? I think that everyone has an artistic side in them. Is it just practice and discipline? Like what's the

recipe to be a successful, massive artist, especially with social media nowadays? It's interesting that like we were talking about the creativity, you know, because I think like you just said, everybody has that in them. So I think that there's a lot of talk about like, how do I be more creative or how can I be better at my practice as an artist? And the truth is, I think it's not about being more creative. I think it's about being consistent. And that answer applies to everything. Like the answer that you can ask me, how to do this as an artist or how to be a better business person as an artist, just remove artist from any of it. It's the same shit. Cause it's basically, you need to prove to

yourself that you've put in the time you've in the hours you're consistent you're reliable and like if you want to work as a as an artist for example it's not about being creative you have to already have like made sure that you're creative which we've established you are from birth what you need to do then is be reliable like if someone calls you up and needs you to create something you have to say i can do it say, I can do it by Monday and do it by Monday. I think that's so smart because I think a lot of creatives

or labeled creatives, again, we're going to labels, they also, they say, well, I'm a creative. I'm not going to, again, maybe I'm not on time or maybe I'm not going to follow through. I'm not going to do this

because I'm creative. I heard that so many times and I'm like, there also is this term called like starving artists and there's a reason like you have to both be creative and put out great work but you can't just you can't not be professional and consistent and like stick by what you say you're gonna do and I think

a lot of like a lot of create in my field like if you work with a graphic artist or with a web designer say well I'm creative so I don't have to like hit a deliverable it's like that's not bullshit I'm sorry I'll be the first to say that's bullshit like I think that's why you've done what you've done right that's why you work with so many huge master brands, why you have a book. It's why you're successful, right? You've got to kind of marry the two together. Yeah, exactly. To your point, like the starving artist stereotype exists because artists say things like I wasn't feeling inspired, but I'm sorry, but people who are making iPhones don't get to say like, I wasn't inspired to make the iPhone. Like business is business and art is just another business. I always say to everyone that when I get an interview, I say, they say, how do you stay inspired?

And I say, I'm inspired 20% of the time. The other 80 is just doing it when you don't feel inspired. Yeah. I mean, Chuck Close, artist, photographer, he said inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and work. Ooh, that's such a good one. No, I think it's smart. I think this is really important because people that want to pursue a career as a creative,

and that could be any type of creative. I think they immediately say, I'm a creative so I can, not everybody, but many people. And so they throw out all the stuff about like being on time, putting in work, working when you don't want to, like doing things you don't like, being consistent, right? All of these things. And it's like, then you can't build a career without that. Like, I can't, I can't do what I do and be like, well, you know, today I wasn't feeling inspired. So like, I'm just not going to do that today. Or, you know, I didn't feel like I didn't see it that in that moment. So like, you guys are gonna have

to wait until I do like, you can't do that. No, you can't. And it's funny because in every other business, that excuse doesn't exist. You can't say I wasn't feeling it. Yeah. Like if somebody says, Michael, where's that contract? You know, today I just really wasn't inspired to sign that. Also, if you're in a relationship, you can't just be like, I'm just not feeling loving today. Hey, where's my payroll? You might have to fake it. You may not feel it, but you show up. Yeah. I mean, I don't say to you, I just don't feel like sucking your dick today.

Where's my paycheck today? Well, you know, I just didn't feel the inspiration to sign that paycheck. Or I could say tomorrow when the baby's crying, I just don't want to wake up today. No, you're so right though. And I think this is like, for somebody that's had the level of success you've had pursuing a career of art, I think it's important for other creatives to hear because it's not just the end product that matters.

It's all the stuff and how you interact with people and how you conduct yourselves that really like put this whole package together. Yeah. Well, I mean, think about it. Creativity is the product. So you can't have a shitty product. You can't have a product that doesn't work sometimes. Like if you're an artist or a creative, then that's your product and it works always. So if you don't feel inspired, like you got to figure out a system for yourself that you get inspiration, whatever that means, like fill the well. So when it's time for the creativity

to be there, you have it. I would love to know when you got your first big break and what led up to that. So did you start doing something in the morning every single morning and then it led up to this big project with the brand? What was the first big break and what was the lead up? I think we should talk about we should briefly talk about MAC Cosmetics because I started my career working for MAC. Which is where you met one of my favorite friends, Jules, who I met when I was 21.

She did my makeup when I was a partier at MAC. But that's how you guys met. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, we met at a MAC party. So I worked for MAC as a graphic designer and going back to architecture and my dad and everything, like I felt like I needed to figure out how to make a living. And so when I couldn't do the math for architecture, I switched to graphic design.

So long story short, I end up in New York working for Mac as a graphic designer. And that sounds really dreamy and everything. And it was. However, when you work for a corporation, you go to a place every day and you sit in the same chair and you do the same thing every day. So maybe like the design you do is different, but your day to day routine is the same. And that's a slow death for many people, including myself. So after five or six years, I quit my job and started to be a full time artist. That wasn't really like a break per se, but because I had worked for Mac, I had a network of like relevant creative people

and like fashion industry and beauty industry people. So I was able to get work as like an artist designer doing big brands like Sephora and Urban Decay and stuff like that. But in the meantime, I didn't wanna be a graphic designer. Like I don't really call myself a graphic designer. I call myself an artist. And the difference to me is a designer gets hired by somebody to execute someone else's vision or to execute assets for

someone else's brand or something like that, right? Whereas an artist like myself, I create my own work with my own voice and it's my own brand. So when I do work with a big company, it's a collaboration. It's not I'm being hired to do something. It's we're collaborating. Yeah, that makes sense. Not easy to brand yourself as an artist, but'm being hired to do something. It's we're collaborating. Yeah, that makes sense. Not easy to brand yourself as an artist, but you've managed to do it. Yeah. What are some tips that you would give to artists, graphic designers, whatever it is to brand themselves? And I know you said graphic design is different than artists,

but maybe there are graphic designers that want to branch out to be artists and brand themselves. Yeah. I mean, that's a big thing that I struggled with at Mac is that I was doing work without putting my name on it. So the work might be the same. If you're a graphic designer and you want to be like an independent designer and you want to put your name at the bottom of the work, you've got to steer from doing design that's a service and you've got to do work that's the final product. So what that means is if you want to spend your life doing designs for other people, that could be an amazing career. You could be an independent designer and work for amazing brands and do really fucking cool work. Or you could try to brand yourself and that's when

you use your own voice, do your own work, put in the hours, do the repetition, like all that that we've talked about, and then you're putting your name at the bottom of it because it's not someone else's work. It's your work. What's been your favorite brand? I know you've worked with some massive brands. What's been your favorite brand to work with and why? One of the biggest projects of my career is a billboard in Times Square that's for Sephora. And it's a permanent billboard, which is amazing.

You have to text it to me so we can post it. Yeah, okay. And working with Sephora. I mean, your stuff's all over New York. It's all over, yeah. Yeah, and it's distinguished. I mean, like, every time you see it, like, you can tell right away it's you.

Yeah, thank you. Of course. I've worked hard to achieve that. You know, Sephora is really great. The project that I did for Sephora was all about individuality and, like, finding yourself and being your best self. And so to get that gig, like to do this project,

which was going to be a billboard, you know, above the store in Times Square. And it's all about me and my work and Sephora and their mission, which is individuality. Like it was the perfect marriage. So that's kind of like my, that's like the dream job right there. It sounds like when the brand comes to you and says,

let your freak flag fly and be creative how you want to do it without micromanaging you, that's when you thrive the most. I think that that's when most people thrive the most. But having constraints is helpful. Talk about that a little bit because you and I are similar like that. And I also at the same time need the structure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are similar like that. I like the structure. I do well with constraints and structure. And part of that is my personality to resist constraints. So it's like you get a brand collaboration, let's say, and it's let's call it like vitamin water. Right. And they're like, just do whatever you want and we're going to put it on a label. Like that's not a really easy task because now you have all this pressure because whatever you want still has to like go with this brand. Right. So this is obviously not going to happen.

That's not how collaborations work. But for me, when I'm given parameters, like let's, let's even dumb it down to say a color palette. Like I did a thing for Pepsi, right? My work is generally all the colors. Pepsi is red and blue. Okay. So now I have these parameters. I've got this challenge where I've got to work in only red and blue. So that's kind of cool for me because now I can come back to them and be like, what if we just bring pink into it? We're going to push this red and blue a little bit. What about purple?

And so I push back a little bit. And I think I thrive doing that. But I still have this structure. So let me ask you this. When you decorated my tits, you decorated it in a way where it's something I would want on my Instagram feed. How much goes into that? Were you studying the brand before you did it? You knew the colors to choose to make sure it fit with my flow of my brand. How much prep goes into the planning? But also you could see

the flare that there was like a turquoise in there. But also you could see the flair that there was like a turquoise in there. Yes. No, it was like loud, flamboyant. Yeah. Yeah. There was different, there was things that she didn't necessarily have in her brand as well. Yeah. All weekend, I was at a bachelorette party and I was rocking my Rothy's. These are the most comfortable, stylish, sustainable shoes. They also have bags, which like I said, is made of repurposed eco-friendly materials like repurposed plastic water bottles and marine plastic. First of all, I think these shoes are so comfortable. I wear them all the time. I have them in white. There's no break-in period. There's nothing worse than getting a brand new

pair of shoes and you get blisters all over your feet. That does not happen with Rothy's. So they have tons of styles. I'm a fan of the white shoes, just like the plain white shoe. It's a crisp white sneaker. I've always liked this ever since I was little. It's a slip-on. I love a slip-on. No one has time. And this one gives you a cool, casual street style. I wear it with a dress, a skirt, shorts. This weekend, I was wearing it with a bikini. Whatever you want. It's so easy to slide in. It's so chic too. I think it's worse than when Michael steps on my white shoe. I do not let him around my Rothy's. They're available in a range of different styles. So if you're not a white shoe person, it comes in a lot of different colors, patterns, prints. But what's

best about Rothy's is they come with free shipping different colors, patterns, prints. But what's best about Rothy's is they come with free shipping and free returns on eligible items. But I know you're going to love, I'm telling you, the white kicks. Look up the white sneakers. You'll die. They're washable, durable, and flexible. And they also have a signature thread, which like I said, is made of repurposed water bottles. Amazing. Which minimizes their impact on the planet. We love this. Check out all their amazing shoes, bags, and masks available right now at rothys.com slash skinny. That's rothys.com, R-O-T-H-Y-S.com slash skinny, style and sustainability. Meet to create your new

favorites. Head to rothys.com slash skinny today. Enjoy. Well, my work is kind of maximalist. I use all the space and i bring a lot to the table like in my work your brand is very identifiable as pink for starters you don't say yeah i mean if if you didn't know that but as you may recall you gave me the parameters you said think 80ss Barbie and hot pink. But you know what? It seems like he does well when it's just little keywords and then it's like, go fly. Yeah. So I did my research.

I mean, that's easy research, first of all, like 80s Barbie and then hot pink. And then I brought in a couple of things that I thought were suitable for like 80s because I wanted to make it kind of punk. And so the 80s punk is all about layers and like a little bit of texture and grit. And I thought that having like this cement kind of clay cast of your tits didn't feel like this clean, poppy, plasticky 80s Barbie to me. It felt like it merited something kind of rock and roll. So then I merged this idea of like the layers of the punk,

the grittiness of the punk with the hot pink and the Barbie. And that's how we got your boobs. I love them. I imagine at this point in your career, you have emerging artists or artists that are lesser known and that are like earlier on the path approaching you on ways to be successful.

So is there a common theme or denominator that you see as to why they're not there yet? Or is there something you tell them to get there? Yeah, I really like to focus on the repetition. That's what I always tell people. Like you have to keep doing it. You've got to pay your dues. It's so true.

There's no shortcut. And then the other thing is, I hate to say this because it sounds harsh, but if you're the person asking how to get to the end of the race, then the reason you're not getting there is because you're asking. Also, if you're-

Elaborate on that, why? Because I think it's like time poorly spent. You're busy researching how to do the thing, and the only way to actually learn how to do it is to do it yourself over and over again. It's like the person that asks, how do I make money? You have to refine your intention. If your intention is to get to the end of the race, that's the wrong intention to start out with. No, it's this mentality of like being a constant student and learner. It's like I always tell people you can read every business book, every self-help book, every, you know, listen to every podcast, listen to every guru. But if you don't actually like get out there and start doing it.

I'll give you, here's a perfect example. We went to this Tony Robbins event. We got invited to this event. And I was like, cool, great event. Tony Robbins, obviously a fucking powerhouse monster like somebody who's just like crushed his sphere of when you think like when you think of that type of arena like you think tony robbins like that's the face of that type of thing yeah and i remember looking around the room and being like you get all jazzed up and these are but i had like a very very cynical outlook and it was me looking at everybody, the majority,

not everybody, because some people are going to do something and saying like all these people, the majority of these people are here and they're just going to keep going to these seminars and keep reading these books and keep listening to the inspirations and keep turning on that, you know, Rocky music in the morning, but never actually like going out and doing, they're just this forever student mentality. Yeah. And what people don't understand is you get so much further ahead by just doing and failing and doing and failing than just waiting for the perfect moment.

Cause like, yeah, you have to actually do. Yeah. And all of your questions, I mean, generally speaking, all your questions will be answered in that process. Yes. So if you're spending time reaching out saying like, hey, how do you or how do I? Chances are you'd find those answers if you were just out there doing it. And I like I totally agree.

I think that the getting inspired thing is like it can be a vicious cycle. Like you spend your entire career getting inspired at how to be better at your career, but you never had the career because you're getting inspired. Like it's an endless time warp. So I think that like back to the inspiration and like maybe the daily schedule, like how much time do you think is worth spending getting inspired every day? I can't answer that. I can say it for me. Which is what's for you? Maybe an hour. If you spend too much time getting inspired, first of all, you're just repeating what you're listening to or seeing. Like maybe

you like listen to music and that's inspiration. After an hour, like you're listening to or seeing. Maybe you listen to music and that's inspiration. After an hour, you're just repeating. How important... Okay, for me, I feel like I have a different creativity than you because I'm not an artist, but I would say that I have a creative element to what I do. And for me to be creative, I like to have a certain workspace. And sometimes I don't get it every day and I don't get attached to it. But if I had a preference, I would like to have a certain workspace. And sometimes I don't get it every day and I don't get attached to it. But if I had a preference, I would like to have a certain energy in the workspace. Do you have that kind of energy when you work or can you just work anywhere?

I can just work anywhere, but that's, I think, a result of me training myself to do that. I do thrive, however, with like order around me. So explain, is it their music? Is there an oil diffuser? Is there a candle? What's the deal? There's like crystals.

I mean, I have crystals everywhere. Is Jules petting your hair? Jules is talking like about something in the background and I'm like, what? No, it's about like, I need a clean, like I need tidiness. So like I can be sitting on the couch, like I could be in like in the kitchen. And as long as the kitchen is clean, then I feel like I can be productive. I will say that I've trained myself to where like I can be sitting in a car on my laptop and like make shit happen because it's, it's back to that part of the conversation. Like you have to learn

how to just perform and that's, that's the business part of it. But let's stick with the clean room. Like I like a good clean room. Okay, okay. Remember they had all those, you had everything all organized in those shelves and those shelving systems. Remember that?

Okay, let me just shout this out. You and Jules came to my house and literally did an art installment, you guys. If you Google the Skinny Confidential Makeup Organization, you can see what they did. And that to me is so artistic.

Like Jules just- That's all Jules. I mean, I put in a couple nails. Like I And that to me is so artistic. Like Jules just- That's all Jules. I mean, I put in a couple nails. I'm handy. She's so artistic. I am very interested in this next question that I'm going to ask you. What are the connections between emotions and colors when you're creating something? So, like say a girl wants to launch a blog and she wants the audience to feel like their guard is down. What are the colors that you're going to use? Maybe walk us through each of the emotions. Okay, so this is a really awesome topic.

You can look at it as there's the emotion of the color and there's the psychology of the color. Tell us both. Okay, so the psychology of color is very argued. So if you get online and start researching, you're going to find a lot of varying and potentially like contrasting information. But ultimately what it comes down to is that the psychology of color is attached to like time, like chronology, and even like culture and location. So like in the Western world, in the last 20 years, the psychology of red might be like anger or passion or things like that. And then that kind of bridges into the emotion, right? So what that means is when you see the color red, what's happening neurologically in your brain, what does that provoke psychologically?

And then what does that make you feel emotionally? It's all interconnected. I think what matters here for your question is it's a very personal, like individual experience. So when you, if you're starting a blog, you want to brand yourself, you're working on designing a logo and picking a color palette. I think that if you feel like, let's use black. If you feel like black makes you feel calm, when you see black, you feel balanced, then black might be a great color for you. Like if you want people to feel balanced when they look at your site, then black could

totally work. But you can't rely on the color alone. You're then going to have to build off of that. You're going to have to do things that support the idea that black is balance. Black's a good color for this example because it's totally polarizing. Like black could mean Halloween to you. And to me, it could mean like black licorice and like the sweet part of Halloween. And then to someone else, it could mean like the structure of a black frame around a beautiful photo. And all those things evoke different emotions. So when a brand comes and works and hires you, like let's say like a Fenty Beauty comes and hires you, are they giving you the parameters of color? Do they say we want to capture this person

and we want the psychology of this to be this, or is it like more broad? Well, I mean, working with Fenty is a tough example because Rihanna knows exactly like what she is and what she wants, but let's use a different brand. Let's just say generic brand, like generic startup is coming to me and saying like, we want to brand ourselves. I would go through with them and ask and like trying to educate myself as much as I could about what their brand is about, what the person who started the brand, like, what are they like? What are they into? What causes them fear? Like what, what brings them joy? And I would try to like dive into the colors that they're going to respond to in the process, but it wouldn't be about asking them to tell me what color.

I think it would be about me understanding what's their objective and me figuring out what design elements and what color elements I'm going to use to meet those objectives. That makes sense. Does this fall into the conversation of like, you know, back when I was a marketer, you would say like if you wanted to invoke trust, you'd use a blue. Yeah. Or if you wanted to invoke health, you'd use a green. Totally.

Or if you'd want to like have somebody kind of be cautious about something, but also triggering like you'd use a blue. Or if you wanted to invoke health, you'd use a green. Or if you'd want to have somebody kind of be cautious about something, but also triggering, you'd use a yellow. You'd use a yellow, yeah. If it's food, you'd use a combination of yellow, red. That's still fact. So when you're going through all the colors and you're using everything, maybe it means something different to you, but are you picking your colors based on the things I'm describing? Or are you basing the colors based on emotions you've ascribed to the colors for yourself be be yeah so like a yellow would mean maybe something different to you than me but you're choosing that yellow because of the emotion it invokes in you yeah I'm assigning meaning to the colors but I mean there are some kind of universal ones that we that we have like come to to like accept like like yellow for food

or for caution like green like mcdonald's yellow red for stop red for urgent yeah red for urgent i mean there are certain things that that we as a culture have like coded for example green means go you know green also means safety green means health but then green could also mean caution green can mean envy like there's so many other things that green can mean but we've assigned certain things and we've accepted them so like green means go like we all know that just because of the stoplight but like what does that really mean like why is it green and the real reason usually is just that it's a tradition it happened at one point and now that's what it is. Do you think that anyone could be an artist? Oh yeah. So you think anyone could pick up a pen and paper and draw something? I don't think anyone can be a visual artist. Okay. I think anybody can be an artist because I think art is

about figuring out a consistent way to express yourself in a way that resonates with an audience. So you could say like Michael on a mic is artistic because he's expressing himself to an audience. So you could say like Michael on a mic is artistic because he's expressing himself to an audience. Totally. Yes. And the one component I think is the recognizability. Like in order for it to be an art, generally it's expected that there's recognizability. It's true. I am an artist. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. But no, like I don't think anybody can necessarily be a painter or anyone can pick up a paintbrush and do stuff it's like not everyone can be a musician yeah i wish like i told them the other day i saw this guy singing i was like i would shut down every fucking thing i'm doing be able to do i just don't have that innate talent i don't have it like if you can't sing on tune

unfortunately you realistically are not a musician you may work in the music business but you're not a musician flipping your fins you don't get too far. You know what I mean? But I think anyone can be an artist. And I would suggest that anybody who's interested in doing something creative, like following a creative pursuit, they should follow it. Because if you, I mean, the thing is, you don't really have a choice. Quick break, because I need to discuss birth control. I've recently had so many DMs from women all over the world asking for more resources and information and discussion around birth control. So I learned recently that there are more than 21 million women

who are not using hormonal birth control, and I'm one of them. But now the FDA recently approved a birth control option that's completely hormone free. You guys may have seen me talk about this on Instagram already. So it's called Fexi. And it's this combination of lactic acid, 1.8%, citric acid, 1%, potassium bitotrate, 0.4%. It's this vaginal birth control gel that comes in a small applicator like a tampon, and it works immediately and can be used up to an hour before sex. So basically, you apply the gel before you have sex and only use it when you need it. But you have to apply it again before each act of vaginal sex. So when you try it, remember, one dose, one hour, one act.

And I have to tell you guys how it works because it's insane really. Like I kind of geeked out when I learned this and you know me, I had to overshare. We're going to go there. Normally without Fexi, when a guy comes and enters the vagina, it causes the pH of your vagina to increase, which allows sperm to keep swimming and make their way up there to fertilize your egg. Are you listening, Michael and Taylor? So, Fexi works by maintaining the vaginal pH to a level that reduces the mobility of the sperm, reducing the chance of the sperm reaching the egg. How awesome is that? While Fexi could be a great option for many women like me who are seeking hormone-free birth control, it isn't right for everyone. So be sure to tell your healthcare provider if you have a recent history of three or more urinary tract

infections per year. And obviously, as with any new birth control, be sure to check for any ingredients in Phexie you or your partner may be allergic to. The most common side effects reported by clinical trial participants are vaginal burning, itching, and yeast infection. Some male partners also reported local discomfort. And remember, Phexie only works when, itching, and yeast infection. Some male partners also reported local discomfort. And remember, Phexxi only works when used before sex, and it doesn't protect against STIs, including HIV. To learn more about Phexxi, ask your healthcare provider and visit Phexxi.com for complete product information. That is P-H-E-X-X-I dot com. And Michael, don't pop a boner. You know what's so interesting about like for years,

and Lauren's actually been part of this. People will say like, oh, you're not like I'm a creative. You're not a creative. Like people say stuff like that to me. And I don't take offense. But what I've learned over time talking to guys like yourself and just observing what is like categorized as creatives is everybody has a creative thing, right? I think one of my creative things is like figuring out how pieces go together, right? Like if that's putting a deal together or it's putting a team

together or a structure or like in order, like it's a creative process because you're like, you're taking something that makes no sense and doesn't work and having to formulate. And I think similar to art or blog or anything, like, I just think people have labeled themselves and it's sad. They go through life and say, I'm not creative. And they kind of like shut down all creative outlets. Yeah. They turn it right off. And like you're saying, I may not be an artist in the sense like I can't paint or I can't sing, but there's other ways. And I think there's each individual has that thing in them, but they just get away from it because they tell themselves I'm not creative and then they shut

down. Totally. And it starts when we're young. We're unlearning slowly, day at a time, unlearning creativity. But it's like, people say that to me, they'll be like, oh, I can't dress stick figure, or I don't have a creative bone in my body. And I'm like, bullshit, you totally do. You've just trained yourself to believe that you can't do anything like inventive. Like what is really creative? Creative is doing something different. So it's like do something inventive or explorative or even just as simple as different than you did it yesterday. Like that's a creative thing. Creating. Yeah. If you had a kid, what would you do to encourage creativity? What are some some real tangible tools if anyone's listening and they're a parent that wants to say no because I want clean rooms and order. But the truth is like when the kid is like playing with the food or making messes or whatever, those are things that are explorative. Like the exploration, the discovery, the curiosity, those are all things

that are part of the honing and like fostering of creativity. So I think that as difficult as it would be for me if I had a kid, I would force myself to just let the kid make a mess. So was there any like kits that you would get them? Artistic kits or like, would you get them colored pencils? Would you get a markers? Would you get them paint? Yeah, I would get them everything. And let them choose.

Yeah, all of it. I would want them to have as many options so that I could see where their aptitudes lived. But I think this is even important for adults. Some of the much, obviously the majority of people listening to this are adults. Yeah. And I think so many of us go through life and you end up in this like robotic, like repetitive, you know, when you're at Mac, you're in this, you're going to the same job, doing the same thing. And like over time you lose all your creativity. Yeah. How do you turn that back on? Okay. So this might be a good time to plug my book. Yes. Let's plug your book. So a big part of the focus of my book is to inspire

creativity for adults, like for anyone, right? And the idea is that creativity and inspiration is everywhere. It's in the mundane, but you've got to just like re-channel your brain to look for it and to participate in it. So for example, one of the pages in my book is about playing with your food. Like take the cucumbers and the hummus and the carrots and make a face. And a lot of these things are things that we've told ourselves that kids do. Like that's childlike or childish. But what is it really? Like it's you allowing your brain to open up and explore and like do something that's

different than the shit you did yesterday. And so my book is all about like there's tons of like quirky ideas for people to just challenge themselves to find creativity so I think to answer your question like as adults just do something different that's all it takes like take a different route to work than you took yesterday or like wear some wear a different color like if I wear black every day for me to really branch out and be super creative I could just wear orange and it would completely change my mindset just for the day. So tonight I should take my cucumber Greek salad and make a penis for Michael.

Yeah. But to be honest with you, Lauren, I think that's something you already do. So you may have to make something different. I get artistic in all my different endeavors. Do you know what I mean? Like let yourself play, let yourself explore. I think it's so important to say, I mean, we obviously recently moved here and we just completely changed our environment from the city structure. We were in West Hollywood and we were walking around yesterday and like all the trees out here are starting to bloom and get green. And it was just like such a different perspective shift and like opening up like things that

like I started remembering, oh, like when I was a kid and I used to play in neighborhoods and like run around and go on the, like, there's just things that I think we, over time, just, we, we dull our senses and we lose. And even just shifting a little bit, like inspired me a lot to be like, oh, okay. It's true. You could also explore the neurology of that. Like the channels in your brain, like when you do things in repetition, it like deepens the grooves in your brain. And I'm not the expert on this. So like, let's not get too deep into it. But the point is when you change your routine, when you do things differently, it expands your brain. How did you change your routine to expand your brain as a writer? What did you do? Did you write in the morning? Did you write in the night?

Did you write when you were feeling inspired, which I don't think is going to be the answer. Well, the writing actually came secondary for me. Like to generate my book, I, it's 99 ideas on, on how to be more creative and positive. But I, I listed like 300 things that I thought could help people to be more inspired. Give us three while you're, while you're explaining. Give us all 99. No, just give us them. In, in, in order. Okay. Here's here's i'll give you three so one of them is do a cartwheel okay and the reason why is not not and the point is not that you can successfully do a cartwheel you probably can't i can't but if you just try to do it like you're gonna end up laughing or smiling or like maybe you're gonna collapse and it's gonna be kind of ridiculous and you're

gonna totally forget about whatever was like stressing you out five minutes before i want michael to do that naked tonight that visual when you said that you guys do cartwheels, that's a lot for me. I used to do a mean roundhouse. Yeah, totally. But think about it. You used to, you just said I used to. Okay. So that's one. Another one of the pages in my book is take a different route to work. Okay. And so when I worked for Mac, I lived in the East village. If you know New York, you know, it's a grid, right? So, and I would skateboard to work. So there's no direct path because of traffic. So I would just take a left turn or a right turn

wherever the light was red. So I ended up taking a different path work every day. And I discovered doing that, that I was like finding all these gems in the East Village. Like I was cruising my skateboard through the East Village and like through Soho every morning and taking a different path every day. And I knew that neighborhood in and out because I would cruise by like a little

record store or something. And I'd be like, oh, I got to go back to that. But if I just went along 10th and down Broadway, never. So I think that's so cute. I love that. Yeah. That's such a like key thing. I really like that one. There's another one. Some of my book has like little bits of trivia in it. And there's one called Color Doodle Do. And the point is, it's just to sort of like teach you a little bit about color. But the trivia is that, you know, when roosters like make the noise in the morning, the reason is because they can see all the colors that we see and they can see ultraviolet light. So before the sun actually like shines light on the earth, there's the ultraviolet light that comes and the roosters can see that light.

Oh my God, I didn't know that. Yeah. So technically roosters can see better than we can. I never knew that. Oh my God. Isn't that interesting? That is so interesting. But the point of putting in the book is just because it's like weird trivia that now you'll never not know that. I mean, Michael, you should have a career in being a rooster. Yeah. Maybe I can see ultraviolet light. I'm up at the crack. Yeah. And the way you wake me up reminds me of a rooster. I'm going to lean into that. I'm going to start crowing in the morning. You already do that. So with your book, what are the takeaways that someone's going to get? How to just live more positively with simple tips and tricks? Yeah. The takeaway is to feel more inspired and therefore more creative and therefore more positive. Because I think that

positivity is a result of doing the things that you want to do, doing the things that you say you'll do and doing the things that make you feel good. And so you kind of explained in the beginning, but I want to know more. You said you wrote down the ideas, then you drew them out, and then you did the writing. And then I did the writing. I love to know the process of writing the book. Okay, so I did all the ideas. I had an awesome editor. She helped me to edit them down to ideas that were viable. And then I started to do all the illustrations.

So if the idea was like take a different path to work, then I start creating this drawing of like what is that going to look like? Because for me, it's easier to create the visual portion of it than to actually write what it needs to say. And then once I have the visual, like I have a sketch, then I look at the sketch and I'm like, okay, what am I actually trying to communicate here? And then I start writing. And so what that looks like on a day-to-day is really like the process of my book was I had a hundred illustrations basically. And I, and I think I did all the writing in a matter of like a week. And it was just me

sitting there on the laptop. You had all the the you already had all like the from the drawings that gave you the inspiration yeah and and i knew what i was trying to communicate because i had already like spent the time like labored over every illustration like they were there the the content was there but i had to put it into words and then also for me like i'll get on a roll you know so i just like writing for hours and then i cranked it out and so the actual writing of the book was probably like a week but the book took two years to make what are some of the crazy ideas you had because i know you had a few that did that the editors like this is not going to make sense in the book i love this one so one of my one of my favorites

that didn't make the cut was to make a potion in your kitchen and obviously you know exactly what that looks like you know but the illustration was amazing because, oh, and the point of it was make a potion and find out what color it's going to be. And the color is brown because you start putting like ketchup and mustard and all this shit like that's in your kitchen into like a jar and shake it up brown. I don't know. I might pull out pink food coloring. You never know with me.

Totally. Like you're pouring in mashed potatoes and like mayonnaise and like everything that's white so that you can get a pink potion. So why did they want it out? Because it was just like. So the editor said that she, she, first of all, like we had to be aware that people may actually do all of these challenges. And so she was like, what if someone is like pulling out Windex from under the sink or something? No, tell your editor, I'm doing butter with a little bit of mashed raspberry and maybe like a sprinkle of pink frosting.

Okay, so let's do it. We could do this. Like everyone out there, you know, like do your own potion. Like let's make a concoction. Okay. Get creative. Careful, our producer might get real creative with this. You never know what potion is going to come out of him.

Yeah, just do something fucking weird and then post it. And then let's see like which one turns out to be the best pink and then i'll send you a book how about that oh i love that just don't make meth yeah i yeah don't make that i would be that's what you bring he's like we're in the kitchen there's an oven see how creative i was like okay we do this if i get meth then i can quit this fucking show i can move on i could do a whole different thing. I could- No, if you make pink meth. I'm just kidding. Yeah, that would be cute. Pink meth. Yeah, cute. Real cute, yeah. When I-

Sorry, officer. We thought it was cute. Yeah. Jason told me to make this potion. He came on my podcast and told me to make a potion. Your murals. Yeah. I was in LA and I went to visit one and it was huge. That's a lot of work. Are you standing there like all day long for weeks doing it?

How does that come about? Not weeks. I would never make a living that way. Days. But the way it works is like, what do you mean the process? Yeah. I mean, you have a ladder or like a cherry picker or lift or scaffolding or something. If it's a mural, generally, hopefully it's taller than like as far as you can reach.

Okay. So I do spend a good amount of time on a ladder. Is anyone helping you or is it just you? Depending on the job. Sometimes I'll have an assistant, but usually just me. That's the control freak in me. Like I don't really like other people helping too much. I would rather have someone helping by doing other parts of my work so I can paint the mural. When you say that, what's the business side? Tell us about the business side.

Just emails all day, phone calls. All day? Yeah, just a lot of correspondence. Okay. There's like pitching. I do like renderings. Like I'll do a sketch, show the sketch like on a building, for example. Like let's walk through a mural start to finish okay and let's let's do one that's not a paid mural because everyone knows how the process works to get hired because someone calls you and hires you right so if if you just want to go and create something on a building you can't just obviously you can't just go do that and tag a building yeah or you can but you could you can get in trouble i don't do that so i don't do anything illegal people do and that's awesome thank you to. Let's, let's talk through start to finish painting a wall legally

that you didn't get hired for. Okay. So the first thing you do is you find the wall, right? So we're going to say like, we're in Brooklyn. It's a street corner. It's like a deli, right? A bodega. And they've got a wall that's like covered in shitty graffiti. Not, not like a proper piece, just like bad tagging and like looks gross. right? So the process for me is step one, I have my portfolio prepared. So that's a big step by itself. You have to have a portfolio of work, right? Meaning you can show what you can do. I walk into the deli. I asked to speak to the manager. Assuming the manager's there, I'm like, hey, I'm Jason, I'm an artist. I paint murals.

I notice you've got a wall outside. It's covered with vandalism. I would love to paint a mural on that wall. And I will, in exchange for you giving me the wall, I will paint whatever I want on there and I will maintain the painting, meaning I'll keep it free of graffiti for you. In exchange, you're gonna sign this.

And I'll, oh, part two is I have a little contract that I've prepared that says, you're not liable for anything. I'm liable for anything that could happen to me while painting this wall. And you give me the wall to paint whatever I want. Do they always say yes? They usually say no. Oh, okay. Okay.

So I have these things prepared. I go in, have the conversation and I'm like, let me paint the wall. And they're like, okay, yeah, we're we're down wait you said you'll keep the graffiti off yes i will okay well what are you going to paint something colorful something happy something positive can it advertise my business no so now we're in a conversation about advertising right it's advertising your business to have a beautiful mural on on the wall it's ever it's advertising my business but it's also advertising their business because as a consumer, you want to go in if it's a happy wall instead of graffiti. Yeah. So that's the

argument right there. That's the exact argument. Or I would say I'm happy to paint something that advertises your business. Let's talk about your budget. What do they say when you say that? They'd never have a budget because if they did, they would have hired somebody. Let me ask you one side question. What does it take to, like, you do a mural. You're in my building. Somebody comes back and tags it with some ugly graffiti. I'm like picking up the phone.

Jason, you got to get over here. You got to fix this. Is that how that works? Or you just like, you make your rounds. Like, okay, I noticed you got it. Are you on speed dial? I'm like, shit, somebody went over this. You better get your ass over here.

You said you'd take care of it. I mean, usually it's it's um social media someone will see it and like in new york this is pretty good like convenient for me because can't that become like a full-time deal but if you because you have so many murals now yeah it kind of can but but the thing is is once you've fixed it once or twice the the local vandals tend to leave it alone okay and and i i think the reason why that why that works is like if you know if you've you're young you're out there tagging you know you put put your name up or put your tag up and then the next day the artist comes back and erases what you just did it kind of defeats the purpose of you doing it again if you know it's not going

to last and so you sort of establish that like that's that's your wall right but anyway so to finish the process you're over there you track the vandal down you're like hey shake them a shakedown yeah i'm not doing any shakedowns you you do the shakedown i need to hire someone to do the shakedowns no no no we both have to go this is what we do we'd creative we put our creative minds together and go find somebody that can really do the shakedown yeah exactly i can't do that i like i'm too old now okay so we need someone on speed dial who can when i get the speed dial call to fix it, then we have someone else on speed dial to shakedown. Who would have known that being an artist, you need a guy that does shakedowns?

I know. We just discovered it. You need so many speed dials. Okay, go back to the process. I'm really dumbing down this process. It sounds like it's easy and fast. This is a lot of trial and error. It actually sounds like it's really hard and that there's, I can only imagine how many no's you probably get. Yeah, so I was going to say it's sales. Like if you've ever gone door to door, like selling something, this is what you're selling.

You're selling free murals basically. And the reason to do it is because you put up a mural on a wall and next thing you know, somebody sees your mural and hits you up and is like, we need a mural. And then it starts to pay itself back. So once you get the agreement to paint the mural, then you figure out what you're gonna paint.

You go buy the paint. You come back. You might have your own ladder. Maybe they have one. And then you spend, for me, it's usually depending on the size of the mural, it's usually a day or two on the wall painting the mural. I don't know if I'm going to be going in asking someone if I can paint a side of their wall Barbie pink. But I'll let you know. Well, you can hire me to do it.

I'll hire you to do it. Yeah. What mistakes do you see people making in their career when it comes to art? It sounds like you have it really dialed in about how to do the mural and how to do the contracts and how to do the book. Like you have all this dialed in. What mistakes are you seeing that people make? I think the biggest mistakes come to the business part of it.

And artists tend to think that they can't do business. And I think that that's bullshit, first of all. Anyone can buy a book and read it. But I do know that people who spend a lot of their time fostering their own creativity may not feel like they have an aptitude to do the business portion and to learn how to do it while they can learn how to do it. It's very daunting. So I think that's where mistakes are made. So I think that what I would suggest is like for those mistakes is like speak to somebody who does run a business, like talk to Michael. It doesn't matter what your product is or your service. Like if you're a muralist, that's a service really, but it doesn't matter what the product or service is. Talk to somebody who successfully runs businesses and ask them questions. Don't ask an artist how to be a better

artist. Ask a business person how to be a better business person. Because you have the art down. You have the art. You better have the art down. That's step one. Figure out what your art is, then go figure out how to sell it. And talk to somebody who does sales. Talk to somebody who does marketing. I think that artists tend to think that the only way to have success as an artist is by figuring out how to be a better artist. And you know what's so interesting, though? Because a guy like me envies a guy like you because you have this God-given talent that I don't have.

I mean, I might have other creative ways, but I know I'm not a painter or I know I'm not a musician. And I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong here, but the stuff that's in my head in terms of like, let's say running a business is so much easier to learn from anybody than what, like, you don't have to be so talented to learn how to like run a PNL or hire people or conduct yourself professionally, like beyond time, like all that, like you could teach yourself that. There's no way that I could teach myself. I could like do some doodles or this and that, but I can't teach myself to get your little, if you just, if you don't have that

God-given ability, same way I can't teach myself to be a perfect, like pitch perfect singer. Right. But like a singer, you know, I love this story about Mick Jagger, the Rolling Stones. I don't think a lot of people know this. He has a PhD in economics. So he obviously he's Mick Jagger, but also when it came to like negotiating his contracts and making sure that he was doing the right deals with the record, all these things like fucking dude was, he taught himself to be an absolute whiz. I think that's a perfect example. If you are a creative, like you can learn the basic stuff to at least make yourself competent to conduct yourself in a business fashion. But like us business people can't necessarily teach ourselves to do what you guys

do. Yeah. I mean, it's true. And I would say like, to your credit, I think you probably have a very like explorative or creative or inventive way of moving things around or doing the things that you do to find success in a very competitive landscape. Like you can't just read a book about business and be a successful businessman per se. But you can at least cover the basics and be like,

okay, I need to get a contract, or I need to do proper accounting, or this is how I'm gonna be professional, or this is how I'm gonna charge. Like you could do all that stuff. Totally. And I love that you keep saying like how to be professional because that's something that I'm really proud of,

like about the way I do my practice. Like for example, responding to emails, like etiquette in an email. Like these are things that maybe you guys are like, what? Like that's a thing. No, no, it makes 100% sense. It's like crucial shit that like people overlook

and artists like don't do it because they're artists. But I think that's- I'll tell you what, like from the business side, if I'm the, if I could think you're the best like in the world at whatever you do creatively, but if you can't like conduct yourself professionally, then like, I don't care how good you are. Like I got to zone out and go to somebody who will be. Totally. Right. And I think that's just human respect for each other. Yeah, totally. And that's the thing is it doesn't matter what you do, like your craft, there's someone else who can do the same thing or better. Like whatever I paint on a wall, I guarantee there's 100 people who could do it better and faster than me.

But the reason I think I get hired or the reason I get the gig is because I'm professional. I'm interactive. I'm easy to work with. I understand and listen. Like all these other things that anyone can learn, that's what perpetuates success as an artist, not the artistry. Email etiquette. Yeah, it's huge. I agree with you. For instance, there's nothing worse when someone starts an email with unfortunately. There's negative words and there's positive words, which is very similar with color as we talked about too. Unfortunately, or I can't do

that, or even I can't wait to see you. I always say looking forward to seeing you or don't forget to do this. Be sure to remember there's different ways to phrase negative words. Can you speak on email etiquette and what you're talking about? Well, I love that you do that. I think that's great. And that's like a jujitsu style that you've got going with your email etiquette. I mean, but to your point, I learned email etiquette working for a corporation. When you work for MAC Cosmetics, you work for Estee Lauder, once a year you go to a seminar on how to write emails. So I learned that stuff. There are certain words that you don't say. Unfortunately, it's not a word that you use in a corporate email. No one wants to hear the fucking word. Unfortunately, don't ever say that word.

No one wants to hear that. That's, that's insinuating that there's nothing you can do. Unfortunately, Lauren, I'm going. Well, there were like, there are words that are catastrophic. Like you don't like words that are, that are very like superlative. You don't use because it, it, it like magnifies situations that don't need to be, you know, like I think that the key is, well, first of all, the ultimate key for me is kindness. Like whatever you're doing, whatever you have to say, say it with kindness. I'm also very big on brevity. People don't have time to read a shit ton of like words. I think it's respectful to be brief, to be kind and to be positive in your response.

Like not I can't, instead here's what i can do kind of thing i feel like sometimes people miss the length of the email you're coming into someone's inbox taking their time and i feel like that's a concept that's not talked about enough because when i get an email and someone wants me to hire them and the email is 40 pages long, it's like, I can't hire you because you're not getting to the point. It shouldn't be a letter like you were a soldier in the Civil War. Yeah, I don't need a fucking message

in the bottle, bitch. It's not like, Caroline, it's been four scores and 8,000 years since we've... It's like, listen, man, I can respond to you in six seconds if I have a follow-up question. Yeah, well, I mean,

you get the first three lines. You can write more if you want, but the person's only going to read the first three, so you better make them count. If someone wrote, Lauren, I'm the hardest worker ever, and I will do whatever it takes, signed Rebecca. I'm hiring Rebecca over someone that writes 45 pages, 20 attachments. It's too overwhelming. Yeah.

I think that's important brevity. But the thing is, it's funny that we're talking about this, but it's actually, I think this is like a critical thing in success as any person. For me, I'm an artist. So success as an artist. But this is critical for success as anyone. Have you ever read that article? I think it's called How to Be a Better

Writer by Scott Adams. Have you ever heard of him? The guy that created Dilbert. He's a polarizing character, not to get political how people feel about him, but he used to write Dilbert. He has this article, and I'm going to butcher because it's been a long time, but it's basically like talking to writers. He's a successful writer. He says the mistake people make is they use way too many words that they don't need to use, and they take way too long to make a point. He said, cut it all out. Get to the point. Be brief with the way you write and it's like much it's much more engaging because of that article whenever i write an instagram caption after i write it i look at my caption and i remove every single word that doesn't need to be there yeah this becomes flowery i mean one of the other things that that i try to

do is like explain what the point is like whatever the point is can be in the first line and then you can put more info. You know, like if you need to elaborate on what that point was, that's great. Maybe someone will need that or want it, but you've already expressed exactly the one like point of the email in the first line. So if all you get is one line of your recipient's time, then you've nailed it. What do you do when Jules sends a long text? I think we all know that her texts are a little bit not on the brief side. I love Jules' texts because they are long, but I think it's funny that we're talking about this because it is. Jules, I'm going to introduce you to our producer, Taylor.

Taylor has a short beginning. But Jules' texts are, don't shorten your texts, Jules. We're not talking about that. No, no, no, because we're not talking about how to have success in a relationship. Taylor, this is about how to have success as a human being. Yeah, I want to put my energy towards a long form content from my husband, not from someone that needs me for something. I think that it's really, really important to have brevity in business, but also longevity.

You can be a little bit more brief right now, Lauren, please. Taylor, when you're listening to this, Taylor taylor our producer he's got a short beginning to anything he starts talking about that leaves you completely unaware of where what the conversation is going to be about a long long middle that takes you nowhere and no end so you're just kind of story so what did you just read so not only did you just read i tune out after the beginning you enter a conversation with this guy you come back later and you're in you don't even know where you are no it's rip van winkle okay wait let me just add that like if you're writing a lot chances are you're putting emotion into it wait and i was just thinking about this because of jewels like if you're writing something that has emotion in it it's probably going to be more wordy and it's and

more lengthy and if you're writing something with emotion in it to your client, take out the emotion. Wow. That's a great. That's the unlock right there. That is the tip. Jules, what a spin. That is the tip. If you're writing something that's emotional with your partner, go for it. But if it doesn't require emotion business, take it out. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really smart. I mean, emotions get misread too. When someone responds with too much punctuation and I'm like, fuck, what did I do? No. Or it's the explanation point over and over. I'm like, am I in a bouncy house?

Yeah. I think as women too, like we talk about this all the time on online. It's like women feel like we have to overcompensate in emails with, hi, Katie explanation. How are you explanation? Like the etiquette, I feel like we can remove the explanation. You really want to rile someone up. Just send one sentence in all caps.

Yeah, totally. You know, I worked with a copywriter one time and we were talking about punctuation. And I always remember this. She said, don't use so much punctuation. Instead, speak with confidence. Wow. This is some tips. Honestly, I'm taking note from this yeah isn't that great yeah never forgot that art on social media in the digital age how have you seen yourself having to adjust like how have you

evolved with social media art on social media in the digital age. Yeah, because it's different than when, you know, I'm sure you were painting murals 15 years ago. Social media has changed the game. The thing is, like, I think social media has changed marketing. It's changed advertising. It's changed communication. It hasn't changed art. I think it, you know, it's another platform. There's always a new platform. You know, right now everyone's obsessed with NFTs and like I I'm obsessed with NFTs. I, if you don't know what that is, then just talk. Let's create some NFTs. Yeah. But I'm not going to dive into it because it's a long conversation, but the point is that's the latest platform. So it's like, there's always going to be a new place to show off your work,

but the work hasn't changed. If the work changes because of social media, I think that's worth evaluating. Like, I think social media can can provide an excellent source of feedback. The way that your work performs on social media can be a benchmark for the work that you're doing. It doesn't make it good or bad. Certain work, like artwork, for example, of mine, certain work will perform really well on social media. And it's usually not the work that I think is my best work. It's the work that I think has the most mass appeal. So if you understand that, you can use those benchmarks to help you to market your work, right? But I don't think that if you're changing the work because of social media, I don't think that's a good thing. I think the work should be true to what you want to say, to who you are, and all that kind of stuff. I think that goes for

everything. I think that we've seen this last, especially this last year, people are doing things to fit in the parameters of what's acceptable on social, on platforms, on the news, on Twitter, and they're changing who they are to fit into these either conversations or narratives or guidelines or boxes. And I keep telling people like, it is such a short-sighted way to conduct yourself. And I think artists actually can help point the way and show that because if you start doing everything that you know will just perform, you've really taken all of your personality out of it. Yeah. I think that goes for anything. And you could see like a lot of digital creators, they start to change their tone of voice or the topics they talk about it because

something is new and hot to talk about. Lauren and I catch flack all the time because we just refuse to do that. And people call it like, oh, you're not sensitive or you're privileged or all these things. No, it's like I'm being myself. I've always been. And I'm just unwilling to change because everybody else says I have to. Yeah. Like you're pandering. You're not. I'm saying you don't want to pander to your crowd, basically. But it's a toss up too, because it's like social media, the larger, the following you have, the more eyes you have on your work and the more results ultimately you want results. Right. So whatever that means, like for me, it's like, I want to get hired more often. I want more clients. So if I have more eyes on my work, I have more,

you know, higher social media following, I'll have more clients. Like your brain does that. Right. But on the other hand, and you have to balance this, like what is, what is my Instagram page? It's a portfolio of my work. So if I start pandering to the audience, like doing whatever they want over time, I don't have a voice anymore. I don't have a portfolio that's distinctive to me. Yeah. It's like the male fitness model that really wants to talk about psychology, but knows he gets more, he gets likes when he takes his shirt off or the bikini model that really wants to talk about like parenting, but gets more likes when they wear a bikini. It's like you've taken yourself out of who you are and what you really want to do in order to pander to people who don't really care about you. Right. They care about this

image. And I think it's one of the negative things about social. There's so many good things, but not if it takes you out of who you are. Yeah, totally. And everyone kind of struggles with that. I think everyone deals with that in their own way. And for me as an artist, I've evaluated what are things that I could do that would really grow my following?

And the answer to those questions, the answer to that question is always something that I don't want to do because I want my page to be a portfolio. I think to myself, if I just really limited the work that I do, like if all I did was paint hearts, like I could grow my social to be massive because it would just be one thing. You know, I'm the guy that does hearts and, and that could be, that could result in numbers. Right. But what

do those numbers bring me? Now I'm just the guy who does hearts. Like all I can paint is a heart. So I, so for me, I'm like, I'm like, I don't want to be pigeonholed as something that brought numbers to me on Instagram. I need to maintain that my platform is a portfolio

of what I can offer. It's smart. You think that way. It's so true. It's like the Matthew McConaughey thing about how he was getting typecast as like the heartbreak

in the rom-coms. The rom-com, yeah. And he's just like, I'm going to take a break and like not do those no matter what dollars they throw. And obviously he's changed and his career's evolved

into so many different types of roles. But for a while there, he almost became the rom-com comedy romance dude. Yeah. And he almost completely pigeonholed himself. Yeah.

And ultimately, I think that boils down to what your objectives are. If you want a massive social media following, I think that there's nothing wrong with you doing what it takes to get there. But if you want to be, if like for me, like what I want is more clients, then I need to show within a limited range what I can offer to my future clients. What is a book, a podcast or a resource that you would

recommend to our audience that will help them be more creative besides your book? There's a book that I love that this is a total go-to, but it's called How to Steal Like an Artist, Austin Kleon. I think that's helpful for artists, but I think that book is really helpful for everyone, no matter what you do. And artists do this a lot, like this stealing thing. And it's basically, he breaks down the concept of inspiration and it's how to use inspiration that's all around you from other artists, from other places without plagiarizing it. And I think that that's a great mindset because the point is you're basically capturing snippets of all the inspiring things around you and learning how to use them with your own voice. So I think that's a great book.

I would also suggest that people listen to comedy. I'm not going to say who to listen to. I have my favorites. But like comedy is such a great way to pull you away from whatever's on your mind. And I think that the brain is the biggest like obstacle in the path of success for so many people, for so many things.

And like, especially for artists. Your brain, like it's what's in your heart. Like you're drawing, you're painting, you're like dancing. If you're thinking about it, you're probably not doing your best work. I't watch comedy but i watch housewives which is kind of comedy and i do the same thing i like to be mindless it's about being mindless it's about pulling you're like turning your brain off and pulling your like your thoughts away from whatever you're you were doing so that your body can do it michael plays video games yeah i mean it's

distraction the point is distraction. Yeah, it's to take you out of the normal. Producer beats his meat. Excellent distraction. Yeah, it is a great distraction. Doesn't last long. If you need a five-minute break at most. Yeah, at most.

Where can everyone find you, your book? Pimp yourself out, your Instagram, everything. We'll put my tits up on the podcast. Yes, put the tits up. You can find me on Instagram at Jason Naylor. And my book is LiveLifeColorfully.com. I love it. Your wealth of knowledge, my friend. Thank you. Zaza has your book at home. It's on the bookshelf. I love it. I've read it. Michael's read it. Congratulations. You are so talented. Come back anytime.

Thank you. If you're in Austin or LA, but you have to bring Jules. Do you want to win Jason Naylor's book? All you have to do is tell us your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram at Lauren Bostic and follow Jason Naylor on Instagram. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode and I'll see you next time.