The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - If You Are Struggling In Quarantine Do These Things Ft. Best Selling Author Ryan Holiday

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

#266: On this episode we are joined by Best Selling Author Ryan Holiday. This is Ryan's 3rd appearance on the show. On Today's episode Ryan discusses how stoicism can assist our perceptions in quarantine. We discuss how stillness and reflection can help get us through challenging times. We also discuss how to shift our minds to recognize things happening "for us" instead of "to us". If you are struggling in quarantine this episode is for you.  To connect with Ryan Holiday click HERE To listen to Ryan's first appearance on the show click HERE To listen to Ryan's second appearance of the show click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by BETABRAND and their Betabrand dress pant yoga pants. To try these pants go to betabrand.com/skinny and receive 20% off your order. Millions of women agree these are the most comfortable pants you’ll ever wear to work.  This episode is brought to you by Talkspace. We all have something we want to change or improve about ourselves. Talkspace is the most convenient and affordable online therapy that can help make a lasting change in your life with access to thousands of licensed therapists. To get $100 off your first month on Talkspace visit Talkspace.com and use code SKINNY to get $100 off your first month now! This episode is brought to you by RITUAL Forget everything you thought you knew about vitamins. Ritual is the brand that’s reinventing the experience with 9 essential nutrients women lack the most. If you’re ready to invest in your health, do what I did and go to www.ritual.com/skinny  Your future self will thank you for taking Ritual: Consider it your ‘Lifelong-Health-401k’. Why put anything but clean ingredients (backed by real science) in your body? Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. not get the vitamins and minerals they need on a daily basis, so Ritual created a smarter vitamin with the nine essential ingredients women lack most. Go to ritual.com slash skinny today to choose clean ingredients backed by science. Sign up now at ritual.com slash skinny. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. A vulnerability in the sense of you can very easily find yourself running away from anything and everything. So, you know So your relationship's

not going well, well, let's get on a plane and it'll be better in Fiji. Or I'm not feeling good about myself, I'll feel better if I buy this expensive thing. Or I'm not feeling good, so if I have some win at work, then I'll feel worthwhile and not worthless. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. That clip was from our guests of the show today. Author, speaker, father, husband, all around badass guy, Ryan Holiday. This is third appearance on the show. For those of you that are new to the show, my name is Michael Bostic. I'm a serial entrepreneur and brand builder, most recently the CEO of the Dear Media Podcast Network. And across from me, my co-host and luscious, lovely wife, Lauren Evers.

Thank you. You've been so sweet to me since Mother's Day. I feel like you're getting a lot of points lately. Yeah. Well, I'm riding the momentum. I got a lot of favors this morning when I woke up. That was nice of you. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for of you. Thank you for doing that.

Thank you for. Okay. Thank you for servicing your husband. Oh my God. I'm like, oh. God, here we go. Guys, you know, this is, you know, we're obviously we're all in quarantine. We're all trying to figure out how to live, how to be productive.

We're trying to navigate this craziness that's going on in our world. And we thought, who better than Ryan Holiday? If you're unfamiliar with his work, definitely check it out. He's one of our favorite authors. He has written three books that I think are extremely timely now. He's written multiple books, but these three are basically a trilogy. Obstacle is the Way, which I cannot recommend enough. Stillness is the Key, which is very timely now. And then Ego is the Enemy, which maybe Ego is a little bit of an outlier for what's going on in the world right now. But they all three go together and they're great. Also, the Daily Stoic is so relevant right now. We've talked about it so much.

Ryan was the first person to really get me fired up about Stoicism. And we've talked about it before. For those of you that want to go back and listen to a couple other episodes that he's been on, I really think you should. I think there's a lot of value in everything that he says. You can check out episode 83, where he talks about ego is the enemy and the obstacle is the way. So really getting into ego and obstacles in life. And then the last time he was on was episode 223, when he discusses new book, Stillness is the Key. Both episodes, two of my favorite that we've done. We've done a lot of these things. With that, guys, welcome back to the show again via Zoom, Ryan Holiday. Quick break to talk about something that is also very relevant during these times,

and that is vitamins. You guys know I have taken Ritual for the last year and a half. I took the prenatals when I was pregnant, and then I also take the essentials right now. So why I'm obsessed with Ritual specifically is that you know exactly what you're getting with these vitamins. I feel like there is so many options online right now. So why I'm obsessed with Ritual specifically is that you know exactly what you're getting with these vitamins. I feel like there is so many options online right now and there's like all these shady ingredients and with Ritual you don't have that. There's no BS in it. They are so obsessive about researching each nutrient. It's on the site. It's laid out. It's

streamlined for you. The founder, her name is Kat, and a team of scientists are, like I said, obsessive about the research. So they left out any mystery additives, synthetic fillers, and like I said, shady ingredients that can be found in some of the traditional vitamins that are online. I'm one of those people that when I get something in the mail or I order something offline or I buy something at the market, I look at the ingredients and that's the same with my vitamins. I want to know exactly what's in them. So they use vegan non-gmo gluten-free allergen-free ingredients and you know the sources of where they're coming from and like i said you can go on the site and everything's laid out they're also gentle on your stomach so you know how sometimes when you take a

vitamin and it hurts your stomach and like you just get like an achy feeling that's the worst that's the worst there's nothing like that with Ritual. And also they taste bomb, okay? The prenatals are lemon, which is like my favorite of life. And then the essentials are minty. It's like a peppermint, a taste. I like look forward to taking my vitamins. Daily changes lead to big results.

So start small today. Ritual is offering all Skinny Confidential, him and her listeners, 10% off your first three months. Try it out. Satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual.com slash skinny to start your ritual today. Ritual is offering all Skinny Confidential, him and her listeners, 10% off your first three months. Try it out. Satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual.com slash skinny to start your ritual today. That's 10% off during the first three months at ritual.com slash skinny. All right, back to Ryan. This is the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Ryan Holiday, back on the show. Wish I could say back in the studio but I think you hold the record now for the the most unique ways we've ever done this interview one week the first time we flew

out to you and recorded the second time you came to us we did the studio and now first time ever uh zoom recording this is the world we live in now uh but anyways welcome back buddy yeah thanks for having me I I uh I do hate zoom uh it is horrendous software, but it's good to talk to you guys. When we do these things, we kind of have a protocol. We say we're never doing Skype or Zencast reviews because you can't see the person. It makes it difficult. So Zoom's not my favorite either, but I have to be able to look or else we're going to just be stepping all over each other, especially with three of us.

Yeah, of course. No, of course. We've had you on the show before and in the introduction to this, we've referenced both those episodes. But I thought it would be really beneficial right now to our listeners to have you back on because, I mean, with everything going on in the world, you know, you and I were connecting offline. What a unique time that we're in. And also for you, is there ever been more relevancy to what you've written about in your most recent books as there is now. I mean, like there's never been a more practical time to apply some of this stuff, at least in our lifetime.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's actually the sort of the operative way, certainly in our lifetime. Although historically, one of the things that I sort of look at that gives me some comfort is just one, how common something like this is and two, how on the sort of scale of, you know, shittiness, we're on the good end of things, right? Like, I'd rather be alive today than during the Civil War, or during the Antonine Plague, or the Black Plague, or the Reformation, you know, so I think one of the things that, one of the things we want to take from the sort of study of history is just it turns the volume down on our sort of present day feelings. Like if this is sort of the defining moment of our time. And so it can feel like totally incomprehensible, totally overwhelming that we have no preparation for it. But the truth is, like, everyone watching this is a descendant of a person who went through a much worse time. So, I think Stoicism as a philosophy is particularly apt for

moments like this, but, like, there's an expression from a historian who says, you know, in times like this, it's worth knowing that there have always been times like this. And so stoicism is for this moment, but also sort of for all moments, because this is what being a human being in an unpredictable world is. Yeah. You know, like Lauren and I talk about this all the time. I think some of the perspectives, you know, being fans of history, I think some of the perspectives we try to offer to people that are in this community that listen is that, to your point, people have experienced these type of things before in history. But the only difference is, and it's a big difference, is they didn't have modern technology. They didn't have modern medicine.

We weren't able to do... Listen, we're doing an interview right now. You're in Texas. We're in California. This will get up really quick. We have Postmates. We have Uber Eats. We have all these things.

We can download books under our apps right away. Giving that perspective and saying, yes, this sucks, the moment that we're in right now, and it's something that we're going to have to fight to get through. But people in previous generations that did get through these things didn't have any of this stuff at their disposal. Yeah, no, a good place to start is to first count your blessings. What are you grateful for? What strokes of good fortune have you had instead of just focusing on, on what's gone wrong? I think that's a, that's a great place to start. And I think one of the things that I've been thinking about, so I have a, I have a, like a three and a half year old and a one year old. And I know you guys have a, have a, have a newborn, but I remember in 2016, actually, the night Trump was elected, it sent my wife into

labor. And I sort of remember that day being very stressful. And I tried just to think about the moments that even my parents went through. Like, you know, I was a couple months old when the market crashed in 1987. You know, my parents witnessed the end of the Cold War, the tech bubble bursting, Y2K, 9-11. So it's like, it's realizing, oh, again, parents have always gone through stuff like this. And again, you are literally a descendant of those people. But just sort of realizing like, hey, it's always been scary, but that it's actually bending towards a better place. That's just like, again, something

I try to walk myself through rather than wallowing in the fact of like, hey, this is so bad. This is so unfair. Whose fault is this? Who can I yell at on the internet? Which seems to be like sort of the route that a lot of people want to respond to this with. We were kind of talking about that earlier. There's so much negativity right now on social media and in the media, like even turning on the news. I find it really counterproductive to have the news on all day. Like I turn it off. I don't want to see it.

I don't want it in my ether. How do you think that we as a society can implement more positivity? What are some things that you see that we can do? Little things could be anything. Yeah, I mean, I would institute some distancing from the news and from social media and sort of just, it's not that you shouldn't use these things at all, but making sure that you have sort of clear and firm boundaries with them or else they'll drive you insane. Like, I mean, obviously early on in this, I think it made sense to watch

some news because there was real information that you needed to make decisions on. But now I'm noticing every time I watch the news, does it change what I need to do at all? And the answer is no. It's like still mostly stay in your house, still mostly be safe, you know, still mostly hunker down. And so you have to ask yourself, is consuming this information making me better in any way or is it only uh you know uh damaging to my mental health so i think that's one thing and then realizing like oh a lot of these opinions that you're seeing online don't have anything to do with you like i i'm working through that myself i wrote an email to the daily stoke email on on Monday about how, you know, we have to sort of, it's not about, the three of us are all healthy individuals, but the chances of this virus affecting us negatively in any way is extremely low. That's not why we're social distancing.

We're social distancing because we have an obligation to not put people who are not as fortunate as us in a bad position, right? And like, so to me, that's a pretty non-controversial statement. It's very much backed by science. I think it's very much based by essentially any religion or philosophy. Somebody saw that and was so angry, they found my address and mailed me a physical letter to tell me, you know, like how upset they were about this. And I, what I have to remind myself of is like, this is, it's, or at least what I try to tell myself is, it's not a real person that sent this letter. It's a wounded, flawed person who is dealing with their own crap that sent this letter.

And I just happen to be like the, the unlucky recipient of it. And so trying to actively practice that empathy is something that I'm trying. It pisses me off to see people storming state capitals with automatic weapons or hosting parties where they try to give themselves the virus or any of these insane things that people are doing. But I'm trying to go like, how in how much pain do you have to be? And how manipulated do you have to be to think that's a good idea? And I'm trying not to direct my disappointment or my frustration with those people, because it's not really their fault. They're not the problem. This is such a good opportunity to be able to practice empathy. And also, we were talking earlier to be able to practice your adversity muscle. I think we're in this unique time where we can really hone in on practicing and making it stronger. In my opinion,

Michael said this, we were almost getting too comfortable with everything. And this is making us a little bit uncomfortable, which there should be so much opportunity in that. Well, I think, you know, what a lot of, and we're all the same age, roughly. And so, you know, in our professional careers, like, yes, you can say, like, I kind of got started professionally in 2008, maybe wasn't the best time, it was a little confusing to get out of school and like have the economy crashing the Great Recession. But now, like, since 2008, like, our generation, and the people that are aged, like, let's call it like, young to mid 30s, they've experienced one of the longest bull markets in history. And they've experienced a time where like, you know, everything's been going relatively

well in the in the context of history, especially in the US. And so I think what's happened is people just like, oh, this is how life normally is just like everything's going well, money doesn't make jobs are easy to get. And you know, this has been coming for a while, obviously, we didn't want a world pandemic to be the thing that triggered it. But I look at this opportunity. And I've been talking about a lot saying like, listen, this is a time to really reset and ask yourself, have you been getting too comfortable? Are you really happy at that job you were at? Or is it just because you're there for a paycheck? Like, is this what you really want to be doing? Is this, it's a time to go back and reset and recalibrate and say, okay, like, what do I, you know, what do I actually want to get out of life? What do I want to contribute? Like,

where have I, what areas have I been too comfortable? Where have I been too complacent? And, you know, that's not always the most popular message right now. But I think if anything, this event has forced us to kind of come to terms with the truth about ourselves. How fitting is it to talk about Beta Brand's dress pant yoga pant right now? It's very fitting. We are at home lounging around, but also a lot of us are working from home. So this is why it's even more important to have a very comfortable pant. This is a pant that I've been talking about on the podcast for the last year. I talk about it all the time. These are the most comfortable pants, but they make you look very professional and chic

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eight pocket, and more. And I think they launch styles every single week, which is awesome too. Right now, all skinny confidential, him and her listeners can get 25% off their first order when you go to betabrand.com slash skinny. That's 25% off your first order for limited time at betabrand.com slash skinny. Find out why women are buying five different pairs of these pants and go to betabrand.com slash skinny for 25% off. Okay, back to Ryan. Yeah, I think that's right. So there's this exercise in stoicism, Epictetus is like every situation has two handles and you decide which handle you're going to grab. And so one situation is the kind of, and I say this as a millennial, this has kind of become the common millennial

handle, which is like, it's boomer's fault, first the financial crisis, then this, then this, then this, and sort of see it as this unending sort of chain of things that have been done to you, which is a way, and I wouldn't argue that there haven't been a lot of things that have been done to you, which is a way, and I wouldn't argue that there haven't been a lot of things that have gone wrong and that there aren't people to blame for those things. But part of that narrative is really seeding any agency that you have over yourself, any sense that you get to decide how you respond to these things. And so I think the second handle is the one you're talking about, which is, this is a

reset. This is the forest fire that clears, you know, the dangerous underbrush. This is something that perhaps was delayed too long. You know, this is something, this is an opportunity to reevaluate things, to see things differently. You got to decide which handle you're going to grab from this situation. And the truth is, either of the handles is up to you. But the question is, which handle helps you move forward in some way? Which handle actually will help you pick up the weight of this heavy situation? And I think one of the things I'm

trying to think about with this is that, okay, look, I certainly would not have chosen to have 40% to 50% of my income for the year evaporate because I can't do public speaking because my books can't be sold in stores because, you know, people are closing different things. Like, I certainly would not have chosen that. But it's actually precisely because I wouldn't have chosen that, that I never would have experienced what it was like to be without those things. And so I'm kind of seeing this as a very radical sort of forced lifestyle experiment. Like, I've never been home for 60 straight days, probably since I left for college. Like, I've never done that. You guys are really seeing what it's like to be like stay-at-home parents,

which you would not have done if you'd had a choice, right? And so I'm not saying that because I'm experiencing this, I'm going to keep it this way forever, but I am learning things and I think whatever my life is after this, it's going to be a mix of what it was before and what I experienced recently and what I've learned from the two of those things. What are some tools that you're using personally in the morning that set the tone of your day in quarantine? So getting up early. I mean, kids really help with this. You don't get to decide. You don't have a choice. Yeah. I'm just going to be depressed this. Like you don't get to decide like, yeah, I'm just gonna,

I'm just going to be depressed and stay in bed and whatever. Like you have someone, uh, like our kids are up by like five, five 30 at the latest, you know, like it's just what happens. Uh, and so, uh, we're up early. And so the first thing I do is I take them for a long walk and so it's it I'm starting the day not with the news not with all this extra crap I'm starting the news out starting the day outside with family time so that's been really good uh and then then we usually have breakfast together and then I then I do the our work to my work in the mornings. And then like after this interview, like I have sort of a hard stop because my son refuses to nap in any stationary position. He either has to be in a bike trailer, in a running stroller or in the car. So like I have to be home by like roughly 1pm central

so I can take him for this thing, which I've now done for 60 consecutive days, right? And, you know, if ordinarily I might say, hey, you know, I'm busy today, I can't do it, but there's no one who can do this for me right now, so I have to do it. So we're spending all sorts of family time together, which has been really good. We're spending way more time outside than we normally would. And then, like, you know, we're cooking together, we're having conversations about things together. It's just, it's forcing you to, to live your life in a way that, you know, is slightly inconvenient. And so you wouldn't ordinarily choose it. But, but in experiencing the inconvenience, you're realizing like, oh, it's actually

got all these benefits that maybe you didn't know of. Yeah, I know. It's funny. The reason I had to move this interview around so much is because the baby, this is the baby's nap time. So right now, you know, we can get it in. Yeah. But you know, like, I know this sounds cheesy, and we've all heard it before.

And you hear from the Tony Robbins types of the world. But it's like that old saying, like, look, when things like this happen, look how it's happening for you, as opposed to you. And it's true. Like, you know, I've been telling Lauren, like, when will we have got a chance like this to stop and to slow down and to be forced to stay in one place and to not have to just go, go, go, go, go. So, you know, it's been nice in that regard.

And I think a lot of people that are having trouble with this is they're looking like this is happening to them. And it's like, instead of happening for them, I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true, just that like little shift. Because Lauren and I wake up every day, we're like, okay, like what opportunity exists because this happened. And I think when you have that frame of reference, as opposed to just saying like, oh, I'm in this thing, and it's just happening to me, and I'm going to struggle through it. Like, it's just a whole different type of mindset. I mean, what I would think about too, is like, what are you going to remember from

this period? And that's sort of a good way to guide some of the actions or decisions you make. So, you know, am I going to remember, you know, all the emails that I responded to? Am I going to remember all the conference calls that I was on? No. But I'm going to remember the time that we spent in the pool. I'm going to remember that, you know, every day for the last, you know, probably 10 or 15 days, we've gone for a walk after dinner and picked like wild blackberries by the side of our road. And I'm going to remember the things we cooked with those. And I'm going to remember, you know, the books that I read in this time period. And I'm going to remember the writing that I did. And so, so yeah, if you think about it as something that's happening to you, again,

you have no agency. If you're thinking about this as sort of a canvas, as a, you know, perhaps a dumping of raw material that you wouldn't have chosen, but that what you do choose is how you assemble those, what you're going to make out of this, then you can derive some meaning from it. Have you guys read Man's Search for Meaning? Yeah, with Victor Finkel. Yeah, it's like one of the most incredible books ever written. But one of the things that always stuck with me from that book is he says, like, people ask the question, like, what is the meaning of life as if that is something that life owes you the answer to? And, you know, he's saying that it's actually the other way around, that life is asking you

that question and you have to answer. And I think you can apply that individualistically to the experiences that you have. What is the meaning of this pandemic? Well, on the one hand, it has no meaning. It's an objective, ruthless, merciless virus that, you know, came from nowhere and that we are relatively powerless to stop. So you could decide to look at it that way, or you could say, you know, I'm going to choose what this means by what I take out of it, by what I get out of this quarantine period, by, you know, the decisions that I make, the things that I learn, the people I connect with, the experiences that I have. To me, that's not just a way to get through this. It's like the only way. I mean, otherwise, you're just, you're sort of giving in to despair. Before we jump into that, many of us are at home right now. Actually,

you know, the high majority of us are at home. And, you know, Lauren and I are fortunate enough to be together, you know, and with our child. And so, you know, we're with people, but so many of us are isolated. We're alone. We've alone, we've been in quarantine without a partner, without a friend, without people to talk to. And more than ever now, it's important to stay on top of your mental health, make sure you're checking in, make sure you're having conversations. If you need to reach out to a friend, et cetera, you should do so, make sure that they're okay. And that's why it's so important for us to talk about a platform like Talkspace. We've talked about it before on this show. Talkspace is an online therapy platform with thousands of licensed therapists that are ready to

just, you know, jump into conversations with anyone now. What's cool about it is that you can send your therapist a text, audio, picture, or video message from your phone or a computer 24-7. So like Michael said, a lot of people are feeling low right now. It's Mental Health Awareness Month. So if you're one of those people that's not feeling 100%, this is a really good platform to utilize. I know that therapy has really, really helped me in the past. And I think to be able to have access to it 24-7 is wild, especially right now. So like Michael said, you get matched with a licensed therapist.

And the therapist is based on your needs and preferences. So they have tons and tons of therapists. They're trained in over 40 specialties, including anxiety and depression and relationship issues. Many of you are in quarantine with your spouse. So the relationship issues is important. Okay. So the bottom line, you deserve support and you don't have to struggle on your own.

Your tox-based therapist can be your dedicated support system there to help you feel healthier and more empowered even in those uncertain circumstances. As a listener of the Skinny Confidential Him and Her podcast, you can get $100 off your first month on Talkspace. To match with your perfect therapist, go to Talkspace.com or download the app. Make sure you use the code SKINNY to get $100 off your first month and show your support for the show. That's skinnyandtalkspace.com. Okay, back to the show. Yep. I mean, before this happened, Lauren had the baby in January, end of January. And literally two weeks after that, I went back to work. And I know that if this didn't happen, I'd just be go, go, go. And it's been nice. And I would have obviously had

time to spend with the baby, but this has given me a lot more time to spend with the baby over this first three months of her life, which that's what I'll always remember. And it puts things in perspective, like, yes, businesses slow down. Yes, revenue slow. Yes, there's other things we'd like to be doing, travel. But this is time that I'm always going to cherish because it gives me all this extra time with my daughter that I know I wouldn't have had if this didn't happen. Yeah. And I think if you guys have other kids, you'll also, it also shapes how you like you'll, you, you learn something about how you want to do this that you wouldn't probably otherwise have been able to or willing to try. I also think this is like a, for me, I look at it like, how do I want to waste my energy? Do I want to waste my energy sitting

around worrying about something that I have absolutely no control over? Or do I want to use that energy towards writing my next book? Um, you know, being with my daughter, whatever that is, I think that there's a real, real black and white choice here. And, and, and you do con you do have to consciously remind yourself every day to make the choice that's most beneficial for you. I noticed myself like even monitoring my thoughts. Like, am I going to a negative place? Like you have to check in with yourself constantly.

Yeah, that's right. It's like, it's a marathon. So I think what we're seeing now is like, there were people who were able to sort of power through for the first two weeks, and they were like, hey, I'm going to start eating better, and I'm going to exercise, and I'm going to clean out my closet, and I'm going to do this stuff. And then as that time has gone on, now they're like, oh, I didn't really mean that. They're sort of reverting back to the sort of more emotional reaction, the angrier reaction. And I think that's sort of at the root of a lot of the protests as well, is like people just sort of hit their natural tolerance. But I think one of the things you learn through exercise, through study, through experiencing

adversity in your life is that you can't just give up when you hit that limit. David Goggins says, when you think you're done, you're only at 40%. I think we're probably only at 40% of this thing. The markets don't fully reflect the consequences of this. Real estate estate still got a way to go. People are still going to get laid off. Budgets are still going to. So, so like if you're tapping out now, uh, you know, after, after this, like you're in for, it's not going to make the next two months easier.

In fact, you know, it's going to be even worse. Yeah. More than Lauren, you weren't on this call, but when Ryan and I were talking the other day, you know, I think there's this even worse. Yeah, more than Lauren, you weren't on this call, but when Ryan and I were talking the other day, you know, I think there's this, there's a segment of people saying, oh, we're waiting for this to get back to normal. And it's kind of like normal. What is what kind of got us here in the first place? And this is going to go back to something, but maybe not normal. It's not going to maybe go back to how it was. And I think people should prepare to understand like, you know, the world changes, it's changed throughout the

history of the world. And so it'll be interesting, like you say, to see what the actualized effects of all this. Our company is going to realize, wait a minute, I didn't need all that office space. I didn't need all that manpower. And people are going to have to adjust. I think one of your books here, not this one, but this one, both of them, and we talked about this the first time we did an episode. And I really think people should go back and listen to it because it really is like talking about how some hardships and obstacles in life really can point you in the right direction.

But something I want to talk about more right now because I think it's more relevant than ever, and we touched on it on the last time you came on the show, in my opinion, and us included, have had hard times with this because normal course of business, when this wasn't going on, it was go, go, go. It was like, I'm going to distract myself going out with friends and having drinks. I'm going to go on vacation to get away. I'm going to do all these things. And so maybe there's times when you should be facing real issues or real problems or really thinking about your life. But instead, all of us say, I'm going to distract myself for a bit and go be social, or I'm going to go to work, or I'm going to go play with my friends or go on a vacation. And I think more than ever now, we've been forced, many of us, to sit in one spot,

many of us isolated without partners. Luckily, we have those. And we're stuck alone with our thoughts. And I want you to talk about that a little bit because I think that's where people, a lot of people are having a hard time. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. Yeah, both of us are in a privileged position in that prior to this, if we wanted to go somewhere, we could just go to that place, which is an incredible luxury, but it's also a vulnerability in the sense of you can very easily find yourself running away from anything and everything. So, you know, your relationship's not going well. Well, let's get on a plane and it'll be better in Fiji. Or I'm not feeling good about myself.

I'll feel better if I buy this expensive thing. Or, you know, I'm not feeling good. So if I have some win at work, then I'll feel worthwhile and not worthless. And one of the things I think this pandemic has done is it radically shrinks the amount of sort of room you have to dance away from or run away from your problems. And I think that's probably why things feel like they're at such a boiling point for a lot of people because things they put off for a really long time are there. They're staring them in the face, and they're really, really uncomfortable. There's a quote I have in the book from Blaise Pascal.

He says, all of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone. A lot of us are being forced to sit quietly in rooms alone, and we're realizing just how much of the energy, how much of the fuel that we've been operating by has not been, oh, this is a good idea. It's, this feels like a good idea compared to me having to be uncomfortable for five minutes. And so being forced to challenge some of these assumptions to be still, to really look around your life and go, do I like this? Is this how I want to live?

I think, obviously, if you live in New York right now, you're, of course, dealing with the fact that you're dealing with all sorts of dangers and difficulties. But I think a lot of people, including a bunch of people I know, are like finally waking up to the fact that they hate living in New York City, and that this is not a natural, normal way to live, and that all they're looking to do now is move out of there. So I think this is forcing us, again, to reevaluate a lot of decisions, choices, ways we've built up our life. And that idea of stillness is really, really important. It'd be better if we could choose stillness, but instead we're being forced to do it. But I think the outcome is still the same. That's so funny that you say that about New York City, because

when I got pregnant, all of a sudden I craved nature. And it was so interesting to me because I grew up in San Diego and then we moved to LA and I didn't realize how much nature was in San Diego compared to LA until I moved here. So now being indoors, I notice myself, and this is just something I've observed about myself. It's not even like conscious, just wanting to be in nature more and more. I think we're going to see a huge shift in people wanting to move to places like New Mexico and be like, just be out, like ask, maybe not ask, but Colorado, like just out in nature and just experiencing that all the time. I think we've been missing out on that.

So that's interesting about New York. No, I think that's totally right. And if it's like, hey, I live in New York City, but I travel to beautiful places all the time, you can sort of tell yourself that you're happier where you are. But if you're forced to say, what do I want day to day? What do I want to look at every day? Maybe a small apartment in Bushwick is not it. And I feel very fortunate that we moved out outside Austin four or five years ago. We have a good deal of property. I can go on a couple mile run without leaving my own land.

And so I feel very lucky to have that. But at the same time, I think what everyone is realizing is just that we're designed to be active and to be outside. I think one of the things you learn when you have kids, for instance, is like, whenever your kid is upset, whenever they're inconsolable, like one of the most magical things you can do is just like, go for a walk, like take them for a walk, carry them around. And you realize like, oh, they're really kind of evolved to be in motion, not in motion like an airplane, in motion like a walk through, you know, through the hills or along the beach or whatever. And so, yeah, I think I do hope there's going to be some sorting maybe away from the cities and towards some of these other places that have the other effect of like, you know, I think one of the reasons I'm not as worried, you know, having gone through some economic stuff because of this is like, hey,

like, my cost of living is so much lower than it would be in New York City or Los Angeles or San Francisco, that I'm able to absorb, you know, the twists and turns of fate, you know, that living paycheck to paycheck, not in the, hey, I work at McDonald's paycheck, you know, the twists and turns of fate, you know, that living paycheck to paycheck, not in the, hey, I work at McDonald's paycheck, but like, I'm sure both of you know, quite a few people who make a lot of money, but, you know, just even the smallest downturn makes their lifestyle totally unsustainable. And so I think, you know, also one of the benefits of say living in New Mexico compared to, you know, San Francisco is that you can get a lot more for a lot less. And that gives you the ability not only to be outside and have space, but also not

be so stressed, kind of have a buffer between you and some of the things that can happen. Well, there's a young woman that wrote to me about three weeks ago. She's from Arizona, and she basically took a job in New York. And she wrote into me and said, hey, you know, I just got laid off, but I hated the job, and I'm miserable, but I'm really stressed that I'm laid off. And I was like, well, if you think about it, and also she doesn't really like living in New York. I was like, if you think about it, you took a job doing something you didn't like to make

money, to be able to afford to live in a place that you don't want to live. And I told her, I said, listen, this is an opportunity for you to decide what you actually really want to do and decide where you really want to live. And if this didn't happen, you'd be sitting at a job that you hate, living in a place that you don't like, that you're working to afford. And it's just so funny that I think we just get in this rhythm and in this where we think like, because society says this is what you're supposed to do,

you know, go and get in the rat race and work, work, work and move to places like New York that you just end up doing things that you don't really like. And it takes an event like this, you know, unfortunately it's a pandemic, but like this to wake you up and say, wait a minute, I hated what I was doing.

I didn't like my job. I don't want to live here. And I'm paying too much to live in a place that I don't like. So I think a lot of people that are, you know, obviously, it's a stressful time, they're getting furloughed, they're getting laid off. But it's an opportunity to ask yourself, is this what you really want to be doing in the place that you really want to be? Yeah, I think the what the pandemic does is throw in stark contrast, what's important and what's not important, right? And I think people are finding it's, you know, other people, it's, you know, actually, you know, feeling like they're fulfilling their potential being of, you know, mattering, doing things that, you know,

make the world a better place. I don't think anyone in New York, maybe that's not fair. I don't think many people go, I'm so glad I work in finance. They're saying, I'm glad I'm very well paid to work in finance, but they're not saying, I'm so glad that I do this thing. And so, yeah, this is an opportunity to question some of that. It's an opportunity. It's like, perhaps life is going to make some decisions for you. It would have felt crazy or irresponsible to quit that job in New York City. And so, on the one hand, it's unfortunate that you lost your job. On the other hand, it made a decision that deep down you agree with, and now you have a chance to start over

in the way that sometimes you're in a bad relationship and you really want it to end, but you don't have the sort and you really want it to end, but you don't have the sort of courage to do it. When the other person breaks up with you, it's sad and it hurts, but they're actually giving you an incredible gift. If you could tell our audience one piece of stoicism that you look at every single day in quarantine that really helps you, what would it be?

So a couple of things. So one, I do try to journal every single day in quarantine that really helps you, what would it be? So a couple of things. So one, I do try to journal every single day. Like how can you use this time to sort of think about what you're thinking, to process all the emotions that are sort of bubbling up inside you, just even to have a record of it. Like your grandchildren are going to want to know what you were doing in 2020. And you're not going to remember, but the pages of your journal will. So the sort of stoic exercise of journaling is a big one. But the big question that I think about, it's not strictly from stoicism, but I think it's very rooted in stoicism, is something I got from Robert Green.

You know, he sort of made this distinction for me between a live time and dead time. And so, you know, we've been in some form of lockdown now for going on two months. Maybe it's another month or maybe, you know, everything goes back to normal tomorrow and then we find ourselves back in this in six months. But the idea of like, hey, am I going to live this moment or am I going to wait for this

moment to be over is like the thing I really am trying to think about. And I don't just use that for work. It's not just, hey, this is a moment to get in better shape. It's like, hey, I'm sitting out here with my kid. Am I going to be letting my mind wander and drift or am I actually going to lock in and engage with this experience that I'm having? And so just the decision to really live the moment and to be present for it and to not let it go to waste, I think is urgently important. And this ties into kind of a third

exercise in Stoicism, which I try to think of always, which is like, look, you know, a lot of people are waiting for this to be over as if they know what's on the other side. What could be on the other side could be much worse, right? It could also be death, right? Like, you know, they're predicting now it's between 100 and 200,000 deaths in the United States by the time this runs its way all the way through. So one way to think about that, and it's a little haunting, but I think it's important, is to go, okay, you know, like 75,000 people have died. So that means that 75,000 people are marked for death and they don't know it. Now, chances are it's not any of the three people on this call because we're not old, we're not in poor health, we, you know,

we're not immunocompromised. But we don't know that, right? A certain percentage of young people do fall prey to it. Or it could be your parents, you know, it could be someone you love, it could be a mentor that you have. So this idea that, hey, people are walking around right now, not knowing that they are already dead, you know, they might not even have the know, like they might not even have the virus yet. They might get it in two weeks from now and be dead three weeks later. So they have five weeks left. The idea that you're going to wait or that you're just going to sort of let this time pass by is to me both arrogant and irresponsible and ultimately very unwise. And so I'm trying to go, hey,

just actually be here for this moment right now. Get as much as you can out of it and let that be your legacy. I'm working on my next book. I'm trying to make sure that I'm not going, hey, I'm going to have a really shitty day so I have a good book two years from now. I'm trying to think, did I do everything I could today for this book? And am I happy leaving it where I've left it right now? Because that's all that I control. So those would be the three sort of big points from stoicism, I feel like. There's a book back there. I don't know if you've ever read it. If you're a fan of Larry McMurtry at all, mostly a fiction writer, but he's from Texas. He wrote Lonesome Dove and all

those. And one of my favorite quotes from Lonesome dove is if you wait all that happens is you get older now add to that with what you're saying is all that happens is you get older and maybe die um and so i agree with you like you know i and i think all three of us on this call like i never really understood just waiting for life to happen like you know it's an opportunity to go out and seize because you never know like outside of this like you'd be walking around get hit by a bus to get like you could get sick get ill like anything yeah no so seneca talks about he says like don't think about death as this thing in the future um so like you know so if we're all in our early 30s and we're we're expecting to live till we're 75 he says don't think of death as sitting there at age 76.

He says, think about death as something that's happening right now. He says, the time that's passed belongs to death. So actually, the way to think about it is that all of us have already died 30 years. And we died two months. The pandemic killed two months of our life, right? That's what we spent these. So did you live for those two months or did you give them up for nothing, right? And so this idea of death as something that's happening now, even as people are listening to this interview, to me is a really

powerful sort of sobering exercise that I try to constantly remind myself of. I don't kill time. It's actually the opposite. Time is killing you. And so you have to use it. To round this interview out, if someone's listening and they're so anxious and they have anxiety and they feel depressed and you were counseling them, what would you tell them? That's a good question. I would say,, there's sort of very real mental illness and depression and, you know, don't feel bad calling a doctor or, you know, pursuing your options there. These aren't always things that you just have to handle on your own. I think I would probably start there. But then I would go, look, those feelings that you feel, as we talked about here, those are very old feelings. You think people weren't depressed

during the Great Depression, right? You think people weren't scared during World War II? You think people weren't upset about losing their life savings during the American Revolution? Of course they were, right? And those people wrote about those experiences. And that wisdom from those hard-won experiences exists to us in history. And I think one of the best ways you can process this time is to study the past and to bury yourself in reading, which, you know, reading creates empathy. It gives you perspective. It forces stillness. It increases you perspective. It forces stillness. It increases your concentration. And then I also think it teaches you real lessons and wisdom.

And so I would just urge yourself to go read a biography of somebody that you admire or go read the philosophy text of a school or a religion that you've always been fascinated by and just be reminded of how timeless these issues are. Benefit from the experiences of the people that have come before you. And then I think the meta lesson is like, you'll either get through this or you won't. That's something Marcus Aurelius talks about. He goes like, you'll either survive this or you won't. So there's no reason to worry about it, right? Like this pandemic will either kill you or it won't. So hopefully it won't kill you. So you might as well experience this moment and learn

from it and be made better for it. And then, you know, the worst case scenario, let's hope it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not worth trading the present moment to avoid. Well, to plug you for a second here, Ryan, I think a great place to start reading for, I mean, a lot of our listeners have already read your stuff, but definitely starting with your trilogy, The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, Stillness is the Key. I mean, you have a lot of historical reference in there, which is why I love your writing because you are a student of history and it's very digestible and relatable. And then also, in addition to that, you have an amazing book list on, is it your newsletter or your website or both? Yeah, ryanholiday.net. I do a reading recommendation once a month. And actually, as a recommendation, you guys might like, I just read John M. Barrie's book, The Great Influenza, which is like the sort of the quintessential book about the Spanish flu. And you're like, oh, okay, this is both horrible, and it makes me quite alarmed about where things are going. And then on the other hand,

it's sobering and humbling. And there's a lot to be grateful for when you read it. So I'm just always trying to read things that give me a perspective and make me better. And I know this audience loves book recommendations. And I think you referenced it earlier, Man's Search for Meaning. I've talked about it for forever. And Laurence talked about it. You've talked about it.

I think to get some immediate perspective. I've never read it. I need to read it. Oh, man. Oh, I'm forcing. I'm going to get it right. I'm going to force you to read some immediate perspective. I've never read it. I need to read it. Oh, man. Oh, I'm forcing. I'm going to get it right. I'm going to force you to read it after this. No, I want to plug The Daily Stoic because I think that is such an amazing book right

now in quarantine. I am obsessed with it. I know so many of you guys read it. I'm also subscribed to your newsletter and we're going on your podcast, which you got to plug too. Yes.'re going on your podcast, which you got to plug too. Yes. Thank you so much. Yeah. So Daily Stoic, if money is tight or Amazon's not shipping to where you are right now, I just do a daily email inspired by stoicism that's totally free every day. You can get it at dailystoic.com. There's a podcast version of it where I read it every day.

And then yeah, also we interview people, which we're about to talk for that like right now. Amazing. Well, Ryan, thank you for doing this. I might have you do some land prospecting over there in Texas. Lauren and I might need to get the hell out of LA after that. Let us know if there's any plots out there that make sense. Thanks for coming on. Follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Holiday and at Daily Stoic.

Those are the right handles, right? Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on. Follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Holiday and at Daily Stoic. Those are the right handles, right? Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on, Ryan. Hope you guys love that episode with Ryan Holiday. Be sure to listen to the two other episodes that he was on. He crushes them. And let us know your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram to win some pink sparkly TST swag. It's at the Skinny Confidential. And of course, make sure you've rated and reviewed the podcast on iTunes. This episode is brought to you by Ritual. You guys know I'm a human guinea pig

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