The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Jenna Lyons On How To Be Truly Happy, RHONY, Career Advice, Dating, Sex, & How To Be Yourself

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

#630: Today, we're sitting down with Jenna Lyons. You may know her from Real Housewives of New York City, but Lyons rose to fame in the early 2010s as the lead designer for J.Crew; her work at the time popularized the concept of 'high-low dressing' and earned her the title of the 'Woman Who Dresses America' due to the massive success of her campaign to reinvigorate the then-struggling brand. Today, we sit down with Jenna to discuss topics ranging from childhood and how to build resilience to her experience on RHONYC and how that's shaped the way she sets boundaries. She also gets into career development, dating advice, and what men can do in their relationships to keep the spark alive.  To connect with Jenna Lyons click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To subscribe to our YouTube Page click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. Click HERE to shop the last day of our Cyber Monday sale. This episode is brought to you by Alo Moves Alo Moves has always been inspired by a single goal: to empower people to live healthier, more fulfilled lives. Alo Moves is the streaming on-demand platform with yoga, fitness, and meditation classes. Go to Alomoves.com and get 1 year of Alo Moves for only $99 with code SKINNY99 at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Quince Get affordable luxury with Quince. Go to Quince.com/skinny to get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order. This episode is brought to you by Just Thrive These days, stress seems to hit us from every possible angle in any environment at any time, day after day. Enter Just Calm - the breakthrough new stress and mood support formula from Just Thrive. Get 20% off a bottle of Just Thrive probiotic + Just Calm supplement at justthrivehealth.com or use code SKINNY90 at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Canopy Canopy just released a new filtered shower head that greatly reduces contaminants and odor in your water, leaving you with glowing hair and skin. Visit getcanopy.co and use code SKINNY for an additional 10% off your purchase. This episode is brought to you by WeightWatchers WeightWatchers is the #1 doctor recommended weight-management program and the trusted authority in evidence-based weight-health. Visit ww.com/tsc to see if you qualify, and if you do, use code TSC25 to get one free month plus $25 off your second month. This episode is brought to you by L'Oreal Discover the new Bright Reveal Dark Spot Duo! Visit Target online and in-store to buy yours today. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. 12.01 p.m. PST, and it ends, so hurry, on Cyber Monday, 11.27 at 11.59 p.m. PST. Everything's available on the Skinny Confidential website. Stock up. I have all my girls in office. You can literally get all your holiday shopping done in one place. Shop SkinnyConfidential.com. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride.

Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential. Him and her. Aha! Actors are different because they're playing a role. I'm just me, so they think that they know me because they now know my life. So whereas you might not go up to Kylie Jenner or Timothee Chalamet because there's a space between you that is inherent,

because actors is different because you're not meeting them, you're meeting the role that they played. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful, and there's nothing better than someone wanting to take their get me wrong. I'm grateful. And there's nothing better than someone wanting to take their picture with me. I'm so honored. It is just interesting how there's just no boundaries for some people. Hope you guys had the most amazing Thanksgiving. Welcome back to the Him and Her Show. Today's a fun one with lots of twists and turns. We have Jenna Lyons. You may recognize her from her J. Crew days,

but now she is an American fashion designer, businesswoman, and television personality. I think she is the star of Bravo's Real Housewives of New York City. She's a real breakout star, and she's also recently launched Love Scene, a false eyelash beauty brand. She's the CEO and co-creator of the company, and she's just major in New York. She talks a lot about her childhood, what inspired her to join Real Housewives. She talks about J. Crew, how to create a timeless wardrobe. She really, really covers all the things in this episode. This is one of those ones that I'm going to go back and listen to because I liked it so much. And she's quirky, she's fun, she's beautiful, and she's living life on her own terms. I love it. Jenna Lyons, welcome to the Him and Her Show.

This is the skinny confidential Him and Her. Jenna fucking Lyons is on the show. I am so excited. It's really funny because the way that I was introduced to you, and I want to see if you remember this, is you did an article, and I can't remember the publication, about what your day was like. Okay. This is six million years ago. It was so long ago. I've done many of those. And I'm obsessed with people's morning routine and nighttime routine. And you walked us through your whole morning and your whole day and your whole night. And this is a long time ago. I want to say it's like maybe 10, 12 years ago.

Okay. And I was so inspired by you because there wasn't a lot of women that had that fluidity in their life. And it was very entrepreneurial at the time. Wow. I hope I can find the article. I don't know which one that was. What did I say? It was a big article. I'm going to try to find it. Okay. It was just interesting how you walked

us through your day and like you seemed like you had flexibility in your calendar. And now to see you on Housewives is full circle. So but I want to get like the lay of the land with you because you've had a very eclectic, interesting life. Okay. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think the first thing we do is go back. You were born with a syndrome. Genetic disorder. Explain that. So I have what's called incontinence pigmenti, and it's a genetic disorder that affects the skin, the teeth, and the hair. And so my teeth were conicular when I was growing up, which means like cones. I have huge bald spots in the back of my head. I have scars all over, discoloration in my skin. It was not that fun growing up. People, kids are mean.

And particularly with your teeth, my teeth were, you know, every time you open your mouth, having conicular teeth is not so fun. It was hard to hide. Like my skin, I could cover up. My hair, I could put in a ponytail, but my teeth were really hard to hide. And so I got teased mercilessly. Did you feel like you had to constantly hide all these things from other people? Oh, yeah. I mean, I didn't totally understand the extent of it until I got into like seventh grade when like boys and being cute and like all that stuff started to come into the picture. Prior to that, I didn't really get it. I remember, you know, I'd be in a, you know, an assembly at school and I'd hear the kids behind me going, oh my God, look at her hair. Why is she bald? Or I'd, you know, I'd be in an assembly at school and I'd hear the kids behind me going, oh, my God, look at her hair.

Why is she bald? Or I was standing in line at Knott's Berry Farm and I heard the girls behind me go, look at her skin. What is that? Wait, is that? That's so gross. Oh, my God. And like those are the kinds of things that would play in my head. And so it like, yeah, you start to hide.

It's interesting because I feel like that wouldn't fly now. I think it would. I think it goes. You do? It's done quietly., I mean, I think kids are cruel. Kids are cruel. And I mean, listen, bullying happens all over the place. I mean, you see people like, and it happens in other ways where people do it like, you know, group chats. And I mean, that kind of stuff happens. People are not that accepting of things that are different than them. When you were growing up with this, did your parents give you context of what was happening or did they kind of not know what to

do either? I don't think my mom, I mean, my father wasn't really there. My mom didn't really know what to do. And I think, and it's interesting now looking back, it's like my, you know, I've learned a lot getting older about how to handle things with myself and my own child. And I remember my mom saying like, don't worry, you're beautiful. Don't listen to them, which basically is like lot and getting older about how to handle things with myself and my own child. And I remember my mom saying like, don't worry, you're beautiful. Don't listen to them, which basically is like ignoring someone's feelings and trying to make, and that's actually the last thing you're supposed to do. But my mom didn't know, you know, she had no idea. No one told her. And also my genetic disorder is so rare. Like she didn't have anybody else to talk to. And she also, my mom had Asperger's

so she didn't, her social skills were off. She didn't like, she just didn't care what anybody else thought. So she was like, why would you care? And it was hard. It was definitely, she didn't have any resources. Nobody talked about bullying back then. And because with the Asperger's, we have a friend that has Asperger's and I've learned spending time with her that it's like, there's very few gray areas. Is that a good way to?

And the thing I've learned, and I have to be really careful talking about this because I have spoken a little bit about it and I've gotten a lot of feedback from people who, it is a spectrum situation and it's not a one size fits all. What my mother experienced and what I experienced with her is a lack of ability to make connections and a lack of empathy. She did not, like if I skinned my knee, she was like, okay, let's go wash it off. It wasn't like, oh my, I'm crying. And she was like, it was very much like situation, like let's take care of the problem. But there wasn't a connection to my emotions and my sadness or my fear. She couldn't identify with that. So she didn't know how to handle it. And again, this is specifically my mother. It's not a general, everyone, it manifests differently for everyone. And so, yeah, it was hard. I think she saw that

I was suffering. She just didn't get it she didn't know what to do yeah and as a child I imagine that's hard because you model a lot of your parents emotional responses so if you're not getting it was great for my relationships yeah I did really well for when when you were little did you know that something was amiss or did you not have any idea till you got older I didn know. I remember going to like my friends' houses and I would see that like their moms were like cuddly and wanted to hang out with them and we're having friends over and like there were dinner parties and, you know, guests over and we didn't have any of that in our house and it was very quiet. And, you know, it was also my mother

was a piano teacher, so we weren't allowed to have television or music because she was teaching and the house was small. And so like I knew that my house was different but I didn't really understand why I just thought it was because my mom was a piano teacher you know I associated like the quiet and the lack of like boisterous energy because it was her job and then it wasn't until I got older that I started to understand and then I didn't know my mother had it until she was like 74 she was at my house and a friend of mine was going to leave who had been trying to make eye contact with her and say, OK, well, I'm leaving now. It was so nice to meet you. And my mom just put her head down.

She was like, it was nice meeting you. And I'm like, Mom, he wants to give you a hug and say goodbye. She's like, well, you know, I have Asperger's. And I was like, OK. No, I didn't. And it just kind of came stumbled out. And she, you know, and I get I only talk to this now because she's passed. So it's like I never spoke about it before.

But, you know, she she'd taken some tests in like every box she checked and she realized that. And I think it was helpful for her to know because I think she felt bad. She knew something was off. She didn't know what was wrong. She had no idea. She'd never been diagnosed. Was it helpful for you when she said that kind of a relief? It was helpful. I also

think like I was angry at my mom. You know, I think I was really I felt bad that she like I knew she didn't I didn't think she liked me. She was very not very nice to me. She was always putting me down. And I was it was hard. And I kind of pulled away from her because I remember going home. And every time I would leave home, I would feel depressed. I'm like, why do I always feel so sad when I go home? And so I had pulled away from her and it gave me a lot of tenderness and, and like much, I was able to, I'm so happy I found out before she passed because I was able to find grace with her and not harbor so much resentment. I feel like you grow up as a person when you do find grace for your parents and you have empathy. And even when you become a mother, you start to understand why some decisions were made that you couldn't understand. And there is a relief about it. I think that you find a lot of strength within

the moments of your childhood that are hard. I mean, I certainly have. And I think that it's really helped me to become stronger, more resilient. Listen, obviously there's things that aren't good about it. Well, it's like that Tony Robbins thing, and I'm going to butcher this, where he's like, hey, the two brothers, and one of them is very successful and one of them is not successful. And he says, well, why are you so successful? He's like, my dad was an alcoholic who beat me. And they go, well, why are you a failure? My dad was an alcoholic and he beat me.

And it's like, you kind of have two choices. And it comes to, I mean, it's hard to your point. But at the end of the day, you're the one that makes the choice. Yeah. I think also some people are born with different tools and their tool tests. Like not everybody is able to pull up. Like I have so much tenderness for people who can't, you know, I think it is a gift and you are super lucky. And I think Brynn is like, it's not, it's not like everyone is able to. And I've seen that so much with friends.

And I have friends who's, you know, brother and sister. And like one of them is doing really well and the other one's not. And they have the same exact upbringing. And it's like the other one just couldn't pull up. And it sometimes is hard. It's really interesting to see, you know, now being a parent. Like I think I'm so different with my son than I think I would have been had I not had that experience because I'm over I mean I tell him I'm proud of him like literally he's like I

know mom I know you know I don't think my mom ever told me she was proud of me but it's like I do it all the time what are you guys smiling about I just think that's cute I think that's cute that you tell him that he's gonna grow up and he's really gonna appreciate that I hope so what are things that you besides that that you do differently as a parent now? Like how have you used everything in your past to make you feel like you're being a better version? I mean, I think there are things that I remember really distinctly that I just will like aligns I won't cross, meaning like I will never. My mom used to do like little digs like, oh, well, you know, you're just doing that for attention or oh, well, you just want, you know, somebody to to do like little digs like oh well you know you're just doing that for attention or oh well you just want you know somebody to notice you like little things like

that and they add it up for me and I remember those so much more distinctly than anything else that was positive so like I don't I will never ever say to him like I've heard parents say like oh you just ruined it why did you ruin that or I just will I will never it will never come out of my mouth I don't really yell I'll sit him down and be like hey I want you to understand here's why I felt that way here's why I'm upset and try to explain it to him because my mom never did that with me I had no idea what's going on half the time it was just like radio silence and so I am very you know that being said I do think like he's probably not seeing you know I don't get angry and he's not as attuned to people getting angry. I mean, that's going to be interesting to see. Like, I'm obviously not perfect. I'm figuring it out. But I have made very specific choices about never to ever, ever tell him that

he's like not valuable in some way or not good at something. It's like never happens. It's interesting because even as young as three, I see my daughter looking at my reaction when something bad happens. Like for instance, like if, you know, she knocks over the coffee and it spills all over the white couch. You laugh. Great.

She, yeah, she's looking, she's watching my reaction. Yeah. And then when it happens again, if it's something I do or he does, she'll use the verbiage that I use.

Like it's, it's crazy. Like I, I, I have thought like for myself as a parent that I want to say, oh, it's okay. It's an accident. Just diffuse it. It's okay. If it's an accident, I'm not going to scream or yell or berate her. And I've noticed now when he does something or I do something, like we spill something, she'll say, it's okay. It's an accident. And I'm like, oh my God, they're like a parrot. Yep. I mean, there's no question that stuff imprints so deeply.

It's shocking and so young. I mean, three years old. It is shocking. But it also makes you understand like how people who are abused end up abusing. It's like, it's so written in their code. Yes. That's so true. And it's amazing when someone who has a really hard upbringing has managed to flip that story because it's hard. It's like it's ingrained. It's in there. It's hard to break it. Yeah. And what is your relationship with your brother like? I mean, I adore my brother. He's like the sweetest person on the planet. He's also super hot. Everyone's like, is he single? I mean, he's not single. We might pimp him out.

Everyone is obsessed with him. And it's so cute. It's one of those things where because we grew up in such a non-communicative household, my brother and I don't really talk. Like, I would do anything for him. I would jump in front of a bus for him. I know he would do the same for me. Like, we are, we have been there for each other in any moment of any time, whatever was going on.

But we just don't like, I mean, he doesn't even answer my texts. but I have to text his wife that's your way though of how you guys grew up it's where you guys are comfortable that makes sense to me that sometimes you guys don't answer each other's texts it makes sense oh I mean ever it's yeah it's comfortable I mean I have just I have to like but if I dm them a funny meme I have to send it to his wife, too. And, like, on his birthday, I sent him a voicemail and a video and a FaceTime. And I literally never heard from him. And I finally had to call his wife and say, did he get it? And does he say he got it? Yeah. She's like, you know, he just doesn't look.

And I'm like, it's actually okay. It's hard to text back. It's hard to keep up with all of it. She's doing this to defend herself right now. No, I'm on your brother's side. Are you? Are you bad at it? I'm not a good texter.

No, I'm not a good texter. What form of communication do you use the most? To be honest with you, I really don't want to communicate after I'm done working because there's so much work done on the phone. I know. I'd rather communicate in person. I fully agree. But that's, I mean, Are your friends easily around you?

Sometimes, but sometimes not. I'm kind of like your brother. Do your friends give you a hard time? Yeah, I get in trouble all the time, especially as a woman. I do too. But we're probably both the worst. We're probably both the worst on text. I'm better on email than text, surprisingly. Really? I think the texts

come in so fast. At one point, there was 800 unread on my phone because I couldn't get through them and I gave up. surprisingly. Really? I think the texts come in so fast. There's like the lot, I mean, at one point, there was like 800 unread on my phone because I just, I couldn't get through them and I gave up and then I just went through

and mass deleted all of them without looking. Because I figured like if it gets back, it's probably important but I just was, I couldn't, because we could be doing

this show and like 40 could come through because. It's three hours or it's just like two hours, It's like from one person with eight messages.

That's a little absurd. Yeah. I don you know, people that that's a little, I started. Yeah. Well, I don't think people don't have a good text etiquette. I feel. I don't, there's no question.

Well, I think we didn't, I mean, it's funny because I was watching something not too long ago and they were talking about the fact that like when cars first came out, there was, you know, they didn't have seatbelts and they were, you know,

sometimes they exploded because they were at over time. Things have improved. Like that technology was introduced and it was improved over time. There airbags there are seatbelts they're required all these things and the fact matters you know text and email and all these things like they're new technologies and we haven't really safety proof them for adults or kids and we're just kind of winging it and there needs to be like seatbelt boundaries i know right like i also i i want a car seat yes i want a car seat too. My dad was

kind of a crazy guy when he was younger but he tells me these stories about when he was younger and he would one day just like up and bail out

and go to Europe for three months. What he said was the coolest thing which is different now. He's like, nobody knew where he was. There wasn't really a way to get a hold of him.

You couldn't follow what he was doing. And then he'd come back three months later and there'd be all these stories and you't follow what he was doing. And then he'd come back three months later and there'd be all these stories and you'd have to connect with people. And I think that it's great that we're so connected, but I also sometimes think it maybe is not so great at times.

You can't disappear. It's really, I think, and I think it is in a place and a time when you're so connected to everything, being able to disappear is pretty magical. I mean, there's this place called Vivimar, which is in Austria that I go to with my girlfriend. Oh, here he goes.

He's taking notes. Go ahead. I'm obsessed. And basically, it's like a total, it's a complete reset. And it's all like medical spa stuff. And like, you know, it's, and they completely redo your gut.

And they basically are like, it's a no phone place. I mean, you can have, but it's really no one's on their phone. And it is an absolute gift. Are you doing like facials and like meeting with a doctor? Like everything. It's not like anything that's here in the United States.

So it is a combination of beauty and wellness and doctors. And so basically they will look at everything from what your food intake is, what kind of allergies you have, what your blood oxygen level is, what your blood, you know, like do a blood scan, do everything. And then they will recommend all kinds of treatments, both beauty and health, and just take care of you for like, you have to go for at least seven days. I usually, I recommend 12. It is, and then you, food is completely non-alcoholic, alkaline. It's incredible. And you leave there feeling like half your size and like your energy is out of control and you feel so much better.

And it's a perfect detox. I highly recommend it for anyone who has a kind of crazy life. There's a story I haven't told on the podcast, but then when I look back on this memory, it's a little different for Lauren because she was so postpartum, but right at the beginning of the pandemic,

before the pandemic was announced, there was like this weird cuss period. Like people didn't remember that time when people didn't really know what was going on. I just thought it was gonna be for the summer. How could we all forget? We all felt dramatic stress. I worked on this deal and then I closed this deal for these businesses. And I was like, hey, we're going to go out to the desert in Palm Springs. And I kind of let loose.

And it was like, it was me and Lauren and our closest friend and our kid. And it was just this little bubble. We went to go relax. And literally the day we got there, the pandemic was announced. And what happened was when nobody knew we were there. And then the city ordinance passed and said, hey, nobody's allowed to do any rentals. And the guy that I was renting the house from called me. He's like, listen, we can't have anybody.

Nobody can come. If you want to stay here, I'll let you stay here for the whole month for like a hundred bucks a night. It was a nice place. And so we stayed out there for a month. Wow. Nobody knew we were there. Nobody was trying to reach us. Nobody could come there. And it was just this tiny little bubble, but nobody was communicating. And it was one of the best times ever because nobody was on the phones and we were just out there. And I started thinking, I'm like, this is what it used to be like before people were so connected on this thing it's it's really like frightening

to me and and i you know like with my son you know we were talking about like do we do something where it's like the phone goes into a basket on saturday morning and it doesn't and you get to check it at noon and you get to check it at four and it stays in, like a friend of mine, Emily does this. And she's like, and I'm so wanting to, it's so fucking hard. Yeah. It's really hard. And I mean, I have a rule, like no phones at the table does not matter. The rest, absolutely you cannot have your phone

at the dinner table ever. That's a good rule. And that is, and we live by it. My son will not, like he will not pull his phone out the table. There's nothing worse than seeing a couple sitting across from each other at a restaurant and they're like in their phones. That is the worst. It's the, I'm like, what are you doing?

I also think with what you and I do, I find it to be way more interesting when I meet someone who's super entrepreneurial and driven and they put their phone down. It's unexpected. When I go out to eat with someone, my phone is in my purse. I don't. Absolutely. And also, like, enough is enough. Well, it's also, if you're sitting across from someone like I'm sorry like I owe you my attention and my eye contact it's like basic level respect I can't and again if I want to share something

with you on my phone or show you a picture that's one thing maybe just take a quick snap put it away but honestly I'm like really I'm not into it and it's funny because now you, with this new television show that I've been on, it's like hard to hide. You know, and I'm in the middle of, I've been in the middle of a deep conversation and someone has come up to me and said, can I take a picture with you? And I'm like, and I've said to them, I'm in the middle of a conversation. Can you give me a minute? Do you actually say that? Yeah. If I am in the middle of a conversation and I'm talking to someone, I will absolutely say that.

So what do they say? They usually will say, some people will say, oh, I'm sorry to bother you. And they'll walk off. Or some people will wait. I've had every version of it. That's, it sounds like you're really good at setting boundaries. No, I'm terrible. But that's a boundary that you just told me.

It's just one of them. But it's not, I'm not good with a lot of them. You aren't? Not great. No, I mean, I'm getting better, but I'm not great. But I feel like because i mean you've had such an eclectic career but it's interesting i feel a lot of people that do what you do now they don't really know how to handle that experience like you obviously don't want to

be rude or mean but also you have to have some kind of healthy boundaries and be treated as a as a person yeah and i think it's not less about me it's about the person i'm talking with i mean one one time I was like having like kind of an, like a serious conversation with someone on the street who I used to work with and we hadn't seen each other a long time

and they were going through a rough time and they were like, oh, it's so good. You know, I used to be their boss. So we were like in this intimate conversation and I was talking to them about their new situation and what's going on. And like this person was emotional,

not crying, but just like we were in it. And I do think like there's a certain amount of emotional IQ which we talked about earlier is like read the room like this is not an appropriate time like when someone is like deep in someone else's space and standing close and talking like it's intimate so maybe it's not the time and it doesn't mean I'm like grateful when people ask don't get me wrong and it's lovely but I also think there is this idea like people sometimes i think have this sense of familiarity because they know you right and i get it at the same time i'm like you also are very recognizable like it's the glasses and you have this like and i'm tall chic look and

you're tall and it's very it's a very specific beautiful look so i can imagine it's hard for you to now be famous i mean you i feel like you've always been known but how is this different different every time we have someone that comes on from a like a show a property like this like we can we control this environment it's safe like we can produce what we want like people know us but they're but it's not so mainstream yeah and i think even with like some actors and celebrities that are doing more of like the traditional stuff like you know them and you see them but it's like armley but i think in the world of reality tv people feel one very entitled to any opinion whatsoever and to be able to voice that opinion and also feel because you signed up for this they're entitled to your time completely

and i also think you know actors are different because they're playing a role yes what's different about this is that i'm just me so they think that they know me because they now know my life and so whereas like you might not go up to like kylie jenner or timothy chalamet because they are there's it's a there's like space between you that is inherent because they're not there you're not and kylie jenner's a little bit she's that show, but like actors is different because there's like, you're not meeting them. You're meeting like the role that they played. And it's so, again, don't get me wrong. I'm grateful and it's, there's nothing better than someone wanting to take their picture with me.

I'm so honored. It is just interesting how like there's just no boundaries for some people. I think too, the show has so much history and fan, like it's like I'm, I have watched all the seasons of every single franchise. I'll tell you why I like it. I think that my business life is so chaotic to be able to come home and watch other chaos in a way is like a therapeutic way for me to just tune out my brain do you watch it together yeah he watches i'm not as i'm not as like if it's on and i'm with her then i will i love it i don't have any guy that says they're not paying attention in my life so it's kind of like interesting no but any guy that says when that's on that like they don't want i mean you can't draw your eyes away from some of the stuff

that goes on on these shows. It is fascinating. I get sucked in. I start yelling. I'm like, why are you doing that? I'm obsessed with human nature. And I'm just obsessed with the whole dynamic. And I don't have, I'm not around a ton of women like that.

So to watch it unfold with alcohol is wild. But I also think there's an inspiring part about it because a lot of the housewives have some really incredible things going on. I mean, it hits a lot of points. It's interesting that I think, would you have a favorite one? I love New York.

New York, yeah. You're both New York. Really? Beverly Hills too. I like New York and Beverly Hills. Because there's nothing like the attitude of New Yorkers. It's blunt. I think New Jersey's close because it's just so chaotic but i think like new york i think all of the women that come together on the shows

and all the backgrounds it's so eclectic and i also like seeing you guys's houses and your closets and your shoes and your like it's just like i just it's just like a thing it's like such a nice way to like it's almost like meditating and i think this city i'm too boring i'll tell you why what are they gonna film me doing okay are they going to film me doing? Okay. What are they going to film me doing watching Housewives? Jenna, here's what I said about this.

I don't think it ever works out for the men. I think there's very few men that have been able to go on these properties and do well. I think women don't like to see men in women's business, you know, in the fights. I don't think they want to see them

defending their wives or getting in the squabbles with other husbands. I think, like, we keep saying this on this show. I was watching Steve Harvey and he was talking about a marriage and the marriage should be a closed circle between two people and they should go through their issues. When you invite the world and everyone's commenting on you, like, you're inviting a certain kind of energy. Trust me, she knows. A hundred percent. I agree. But I think for the men in particular,

there's very few that have come out looking good. I agree. I think it's a really delicate balance to strike. And I, you know, listen, I think

everyone goes into this. What you can't understand, like what no one can understand and myself included is like you are putting yourself out there but you're,

you've no idea what parts of you are going to get selected. You're not in the editing room. So you don't know how, like, you know what it's like. If you take an excerpt of anything, it can be turned into something. So you're putting your faith into something. And like at the end of the day, the goal is to create like drama and energy and tension

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no claims, just real proven results. Every product is natural and they have a money back guarantee. So you can get 20% off a 90-day bottle of Just Thrive Probiotic, the one I take, and Just Calm at justthrivehealth.com with promo code skinny90. That's justthrivehealth.com, promo code skinny90. You can get 20% off a 90-day bottle of Just Thrive Probiotic, the one I take, and Just Calm at justthrivehealth.com with promo code skinny90. To your point about like pulling a sliver, I know exactly what's like, and listen, they'll cut up this show

and we'll get those slivers. But at the end of the day, I will also release the full version to give the context so that if somebody ever says, I mean, we'll clean it up, but if somebody says, Michael said this and I didn't like it. No, I could share the full context,

but maybe with you on the show, they're never going to show that full context and you're just, you're at the mercy of that. For sure. And it's like, you know, we've all had parts of our story been told and it gets interpreted and people then make comments about it and say things and it's like there's more there, but it doesn't

really matter. It's just a show. And I think that's the part that gets lost. Yes, because the end of the day, it's like it's hard to separate the part that's like, yes, this is your life, but it's a show. And let's be real. Like this isn't my entire life. Like you've, you're seeing a sliver and obviously I'm being protective of my private life as much as I possibly can. And as much as I'm sharing, like I'm also being protective. And so it's, you know, and I, obviously everyone wants vulnerability and you want to know everything

but they can't know everything right let's be real and by the way no one shows everything no it would have to be a show only about one person

for every I mean no and honestly like let's talk about boring I mean I'm the most boring one on the show and I know the girls they're like

you don't carry your weight I'm like I'm sorry without them they're the sparkly I'm like they're the sparkly stars I'm the one who like sits in the corner and like makes faces isn't that interesting how she thinks that no it's so true that's so interesting I feel like you're the star of the show oh thank you but if you really watch watch no really watch if watch with a different lens and watch with the lens and listen to what I say versus what they say I am like in reaction I'm in reaction to them I'm oftentimes replaying back off of them I'm not like the

narrator but I think but that's in all and that's all in retrospect think about it they're the ones on screen doing all that and is as a narrator I'm doing that by myself in a studio and I'm being asked questions and I'm it's when you think about it they're the ones carrying the show it's not me and I know this like I say it to them all they say to me I when you think about it, they're the ones carrying the show. It's not me. And I know this. Like, I say it to them all the time. They say it to me, too. I'll tell you what you are. You're the voice of reason.

And every single, listen, I've got the housewives down to a formula. There has to be a voice of reason. So, like, Lisa Vanderpump was the voice of reason for Beverly Hills. And she was, like, she made the quips. Like, you need that sort of character to be the conductor of the show. Who was the voice of reason of New Jersey? The voice of reason of New Jersey. That's a tough one.

I'd have to think about that, Michael. You'll have to get back to me. Maybe Melissa Gorga. A little bit. I mean, I think that New York and Beverly Hills have a strong narrator. You know who's narrating the show.

What do you think of the Kyle and Morgan thing? I'm very excited about this. I want to believe that she's coming over to my team. Well, this is a little bit dicey for us because we

have a personal relationship there. Okay, sorry. We could talk about it. No, I think... We're really good friends with Farrah. And I think that what I personally think is I can understand, and I told Michael this, why there's a lot of women who are late in life lesbians.

I actually really understand it. Are they late in life lesbians or lesbians are entirely... Either way. Either way. I can understand both sides. I can understand always being a lesbian or late in life but i'm speaking directly to late in life because listen we get tired of your shit no i know i like what is wrong with you i think that if michael and i broke up and i was older i'm gonna say like let's say i was like 45 okay okay there's a marker she's

mapped this out this is very specific and i find someone who is not gonna come with all the shit that guys come with because they come with a lot so so do women yeah i just that's correct jenna yeah but there's something sensual and easy about women i don't you know i think like women being desired it's like I also think that there's this construct that is really hard to place but I see it having now been on the other side and dating women is that women make assumptions of what men want and it's not always what they actually you know I think and what I mean by that is I find that since I have not been playing to men I get more attention from men than I did when I was straight.

What I mean by that is when there was an undertone that I wanted their attention, I did not get it. And when I no longer wanted it, I got tons of it. I, oh my God, this is the tip, guys, everyone who's listening. This is what I say. All you have to do with every single man is ignore him. It's literally that easy.

Just ignore them. Well, if you look at them and think think of their only your only source of fun with them is this friend and like there's zero like and you just like as soon as I didn't want to date them I would start talking to them like they were going to be a friend and I would engage with them and look them in the eye in the same way I would a girl or a guy like a girl or a friend it doesn't it completely and I'm telling you I got picked up all the time. It was an immediate switch. I could not believe it. And I think also there was a safety because it was like, there wasn't this idea that I was coming after them. So any kind of advances I made or advances, meaning, you know, being warm, it was okay. It wasn't scary. And I wasn't scared and I didn't have any expectations and I didn't care whether I saw them and it was an immediate switch. So what has been the other differences between being married to a

man and dating women? I mean, there's a lot. I mean, first of all, sex is very different. Is it better? Well, okay. First of all, I wanted to say, this is no commentary on male and female sex. This is for me specifically. And I think part of it is because I grew up like, when I was growing up and you see it in movies, I just watched that movie, Call Me By Your Name again. And you know- I've seen that movie. Oh, you guys, it's the hottest,

most beautiful film I've ever seen. Oh, I gotta see it. It's Timothee Chalamet. It's one of his, it's an army hammer. It's one of the most tender love stories you will ever see. It's the hottest film. it. It's Timothee Chalamet. It's an army hammer. It's one of the most tender love stories you will ever see. It's the hottest film and it's what Timothee Chalamet,

that was his breakout film. Okay. So it's worth watching and it's the sweetest, sexiest thing I've ever seen. But anyway, he has, you know, sex with a young girl

and after he finishes, he goes over. And that's all I ever knew was like, once the guy comes, it's over. I thought that that's what it was for years and years and years. And truthfully, like, that was not, once the guy comes, it's over. I thought that that's what it was for years and years and years.

And truthfully, like that was not, I was not wrong. Like I experienced that and not with everyone and not, you know, I'm not saying across the board, but that was primarily how I thought it went down. And there wasn't this automatic assumption that I was going to have an orgasm. That just wasn't part of it. And with women, that is, it's obvious. It's like, there's no question both of you are going to get there and no one is stopping until that happens whereas that is not

culturally the way it is with men and women I'm not saying that men don't finish I'm not that's not it's not a general statement but that's a lot of what I was was brought up to see and that's what I've seen in movies and porn and all the other ways I've witnessed sex. And I was like, oh shit, that sucks. Again, there are plenty of men out there that know what's up, but there are a lot. So are you saying though that after a woman finishes that she doesn't just roll over? There's more interaction after sex? And also saying the reciprocity of making sure that both. Like a lot of men just don't do that. Yeah. I mean, there were many times that I would have sex with a man and not come.

I don't think I could do that. That's not, that's some bullshit. Well, you're also married and you have a wonderful, loving, tender relationship. You guys are very connected. I haven't been dating for a while. But if you talk to, when you start to talk to women and you really talk to them, there are many women who don't come or they have to make themselves come i have a tip if anyone's in a relationship and they're they're a boyfriend or the guy they're dating or their

husband isn't like letting i don't know if letting is the right word no not letting i mean making sure it happens making sure it happens get a vibrator which by the way we did not mention no no no no no no no i don't mean jenna i don't mean get a vibrator alone i mean bring a vibrator no no no talk about it and learn how to do it yeah okay talk about it too talk about what makes it very smart i never mentioned this to you but we did start a sex business together that is a little bit of a side we have to send you some some stuff okay great i'm all for like i think it's like, I wasn't brought up to talk about it. I didn't know how to talk about it. I wasn't, I was never encouraged to. And also I think,

you know, with women, like if something isn't working, it's like, oh, do you not like that? Am I in the wrong spot? Can I do it faster, slower, whatever? It's like this, it's a completely normal dialogue. It's verbal. Whereas with men, I think if I, if they weren't, if something wasn't working, I think there was a sense of shame that like they weren't doing it right. And I didn't want to make them feel bad or I would feel bad if it was taking too long so I was like oh don't worry about you know it's like I I was I just the way that I came up in that world I didn't have the language to say like oh would you do it slower would you do that or you move that or oh like and I just I didn't do it so like again this is my

experience I'm not saying in general about men don't know but I'm just saying there that was a very different experience for me. It seems like there's no ego involved. Well, you're both dealing with the same situation. You both know. And with a woman, it's a little bit harder. Like with a man, you know, there's a pretty straightforward way to get them off.

With a woman, it's a little less clear. And particularly if you're two women, it's like you have to kind of figure it out and you got to know each other's bodies and it takes a second. And so you both know that that's what's up. So there's no confusion about talking about it. What about dating? How is the dating? I've never really dated, which is so funny. But like when you're around women versus men, like the conversation,

like what's the differences from a loving perspective? I don't know. I mean, I would say that there is a lot more because you mentioned, so you kind of know you're on a similar wavelength and you have the same issues and you know, your sensitivities. I think there's a, you know, I think that there's definitely what I've experienced is a little bit more like understanding and tenderness. And there's not that same sense of like embarrassment or shame, particularly in little things. Like, you know, I remember how anxiety I would get if I hadn't waxed myself or if I didn't, you know, if I anything physical or like

if I was like, oh, my God, I have a little cellulite. I would get so like worked up with a man. And again, doesn't mean that they were feeling that way, but it was my way that I came to the table. Like I thought, oh, you don't think I'm perfect, so I'm not attractive to you anymore. Or like that I would spin that in my head. Whereas like with women, you don't make that same assumption, or at least I don't, because we're both so I'm not attractive to you anymore. Or like that, I would spin that in my head. Whereas like with women, you don't make that same assumption, or at least I don't, because we're both going, we're both in the same boat. We kind of know what's up.

And again, this is like, it's just, I think, a little bit of what you come to the table with. It's not that the man is doing anything wrong. It's just like, culturally, that's the way I came up in the world. And that's the stuff I bring to the table. And it made me like, I made it hard you know and it's just it's really different you know I don't I don't think this idea you said this earlier like do people come out later are they always lesbians or do they I don't know I honestly think

one of the things that's challenging is and one of the reasons that I've been more open about it is like I never saw an out woman my entire growing up. The only person I ever saw that was out was Ellen DeGeneres and Rachel Maddow, like literally, and then a few soccer players more recently. What was interesting for me personally is my aunt was out. Oh, really?

And I went to my first gay wedding when I was like four or five years old. Wow. And she married a woman. Wow. In what state? In California, in years old. Wow. And she married a woman. Wow. In what state? In California, in San Diego. Wow.

And I guess like looking back, I never thought about it until like I've had more of these conversations, but it was probably like pretty formative in the sense that like it wasn't strange for me because that's what I saw. That's amazing. I would go stay at their house and be like, I'm going to my- That's a very rare experience though to be four years old and see that. I'm going to my aunt's house. That's what I was like.

I'm going to my aunt's house every Thanksgiving and every Christmas. And she ended up getting divorced, but then got with another woman. And so like, I don't know. It's like I saw that and I understood it from an early age. But I also think the thing that I think that's, there's, there's, it's, there's understanding, but I think it's also like seeing something that looks like you, like the only gay women I ever saw in the public were very butch. And I wasn't that person. And so I didn't identify.

I never thought it could be me because I was like, oh, I don't, that doesn't feel familiar to me. So I can't be part of that group. Like it just didn't, it didn't even register. I'll tell you this though, too, about her. And I don't know, I hopefully I don't say this wrong or butcher it. To me at that age, there was no possibility ever that she, that I could ever see her with a man.

Oh, interesting. Like there was like, I don't know how to explain ever see her with a man. Oh, interesting. Like there was like, I don't know how to explain it, but just like as a kid, like it didn't even, like there was no possibility that I would ever even assume that she could be with a man. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. I mean, it totally does. But I think that speaks a little bit to what I'm talking about is like, I didn't sit so definitively in that category. I was feminine. I liked wearing heels and red lipstick and jewelry. And I didn't fit into the physical iconography that I was seeing around me that was what a gay

woman looked like. And so I was like, oh, I'm not. It didn't. It just never even crossed my mind that I would even sit. And it wasn't until I met, you know, someone later in life who I was like, oh, you kind of look like me and I'm attracted to you. And how weird is this? And what's going on with me? It was like not even online for me prior to that so you you didn't realize you wanted to date women until you met a specific person yeah oh that's interesting so you didn't like go like get out of your marriage and say you know I'd like to meet a woman no no idea so it just happened naturally and organically and I was was terrified. I mean, imagine, like, I've never done any of the things that you can imagine go on in the bedroom. I was like, I had no idea what I was doing.

I was absolutely terrified. And, you know, then she knew that. Men are good at imagining that, I will say. I know. It's probably the one thing that I get asked about the most. Do you get a lot of DMs from girls hitting on you now? Yeah. I mean, since I've been publicly out in a relationship, not as much, but when I was obviously single a lot. And so what do you, do you respond? What do you do?

I mean, I think during the pandemic I responded because I was sitting by myself in the apartment. I was like, sure, let's talk. And, you know, I mean, it depends. It also like, you know, if somebody is private, I don't know. But if there's something, you know I mean it depends it also like you know if somebody's private I don't know but if there's something you know it's ultimately like it was all during the pandemic so I couldn't meet any of these people anyway so it was sort of safe you know I was just sitting in my living room having like random DMs with people but no I haven't really I don't actually engage and go on dates when you're going through all of this and you also have such a big business and you have such a beautiful career, what is the decider factor for you to go on Real

Housewives? That was going to be my question. I wanted to know. I always want to know the motivations of why, like, quote unquote, when people have their stuff going on on paper, like the motivation. It was really, it was kind of straightforward. I was, you know, have this brand Love Scene and we were in Target and we had, we had about, we were in a thousand stores. And the places where people knew us, like the places where people knew who I was or knew what Love Scene was, we were flying off the shelves. But the places where people didn't know who I was, the product wasn't moving as quickly. And Target was like, listen, we need you to think about how you can help market this brand. And I was like, what am I going to do that's national? We're small. We didn't have a ton of cash to spend on a marketing ploy. And so I was like, what can I do? And then randomly, I got a DM from the people

at Real Housewiveswives and it was like Andy wants us to talk to you would you talk and I was like sure and it was completely random I didn't expect anything to happen and as I was going through the conversation I'm in the same time having this conversation with Target of like what can you do and I was like well maybe this is the answer and therein lies the answer and it worked did you know it was going to be the reboot or did you think it was like Luann, Sonia, Ramona? Oh, no, no. They told me it was a reboot.

I would not have gone on the show. And nothing against them. It just, there was no place for me in that show. And I also think, you know, that show to me didn't necessarily represent New York as New York is today. And I think what's nice about the group now is like, it's so much more diverse in age, ethnicity, vibe, and, you know, where people live even. Like, it's, you know, before it was about being on the Upper East Side and it was all these women that had very similar lifestyles. And this is very different. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

It feels youthful. It feels fresh. And, you know, like even just having someone on the show who's an actual influencer who knows. I mean, it's so funny. We all watch Psy because she actually knows what the hell she's doing. Like all of us. I mean, I've never been an influencer. I go to a party and people are like did you get any pictures I was like

I well I took a picture of of you know maybe um a screen grab of something I looked at yesterday I'm like I didn't take any pictures I went to an event last night and they just said how did your pictures come out I'm like I don't know I'm gonna ask Athena how her pictures were I can borrow them because I'm like terrible with that shit. But Ziya's like on it. She knows what she's doing. And like, that's cool. As you guys know, I launched a pink humidifier with canopy and I'm obsessed with humidifiers because it makes your skin so supple and plump while you sleep. I use mine all the time. In fact, my son just got sick like a week ago and I had my canopy humidifier in his room. It's like the chicest, most beautiful humidifier you've ever seen, like ever. And recently they just launched Canopy's new filtered showerhead. So if you're

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Visit Target online and in-store to buy yours today. Also, it's lightweight and non-greasy. Discover the new Bright Reveal Dark Spot Duo. Visit Target online and in-store to buy yours today. I have to tell you that I have never related more to a housewife in all the billions of years that I've watched the show than when you left the house to not sleep over and when you wanted to go on your own flight a day early first class thank you thank you i never related more lauren no why why is that funny you don't agree with that my personality is that exact oh no no no i'm a complete brat i fully get it but i'm not a sleepover girl i don't want to sleep over at someone's house it's just not my shtick I feel like I'm I'm married I'm a mother I don't I don't want to sleep at someone's house

it's nothing mean I just I don't want to sleep at the royal family's house I don't want to sleep over at someone's house I want my own space in my own room and I kind of don't want to take a flight with someone either because I feel like I can get work done and I'd like to be left alone and have a glass of champagne and get there and be refreshed and like I don't always you know I'm not a big bachelorette party person it's just I'm very self-aware of who I am and there was a visceral reaction to you not wanting to go with the group. And I've felt that before from people who want to do sleepovers and they're projecting what they like onto me. It's interesting. I think there was a couple of times where those kinds of things happen, where people, what their desires were in the way they wanted something to go, it didn't fit with mine. And they were sort of like, you know, even just

wanting me to dress up and saying like, oh, you should wear sexier clothes. I'm like, well, what I think is sexy may not be what you think is sexy. And I love you in that like super fitted, like sparkly dress. Like by all means have at it. It's just not me. And it's interesting because it's like that wanting me to fit into like what their vision is. A little sorority. And well, it's just there.

It's what, you know, and I get it. And the reason is, it's because that's what men like to see see men want girls in skinny tight dresses but their boobs look hot and they look like we get it like i'm sorry but you would you not no back me up on that a little bit i think at times yeah but i was gonna say like and one of my things i was gonna maybe talk about this now it's like when i see the way you're dressed and the way you're put together like i immediately can reckon like i might not have the greatest style, but I have taste. I'm like, that is somebody who's put together. No, Michael's a little different.

Michael's a little different. He's the wrong guy to ask because Michael loves taste, he loves the cut. If something's not altered on my body, right? He wants the alter. He's a little different. I actually will look sometimes at the way some women are dressed and if it's a little too basic B,

I kind of don't appreciate the dress up. He's such a brat, he's a little too basic B I kind of don't he's the wrong this is the wrong audience appreciate the dress up he's such a brat he's a bigger brat than you so what I'm saying is I can look at you

like stuff they're put together you got stuff I can see he would pick your look any day over like really

what I'm saying is I would not pick your look in general though would you say that men like women to be very feminine

sort of hot girl listen this show men are really getting hit on this show this one is I want to be clear I want to be clear though i don't think there's anything wrong with that i love that we like to appreciate the figure of a beautiful i get it and honestly so do i like yeah please i like i love it when brin but what you're saying is that because they think that that looks that that look is sexy they're projecting what they think on they were like yes

they wanted me to they put me in that black dress and they were like we want to dress you and i get it it was fun it was fun dress up but it was interesting to me that for them they were like you need to show your body more you need to be you need to look like this and whatever you just can't look like the women that pour out of a vegas nightclub at 2 a.m do you know the look i'm talking about oh please i've been i've seen every version of that i know i'm gonna get fucking destroyed it's true. I just think that there was something. It was that was a very interesting thing for me to watch because in all groups like that,

I'm you where it's like, I need my space. I don't know. It's nothing against anyone. Listen, it was really hard for me because I felt badly. Like I never in a million years that it occurred to me that me going early was going to be a thing I because it wouldn't be a thing if anyone did it to you you wouldn't give a shit god I would be like please take care of yourself do whatever you need to do I am excited to see you whenever you're ready like I'm here like great it did not occur to me and then I felt bad I was like shit I didn't like the last thing I wanted

to do was make them feel like I didn't want to be with them. I just was like, I want to go down and get a tan. I mean, it's also like if you look at them, like, gorgeous Britain. They all have the most perfect skin you've ever seen on the planet. And they're all tan. I don't have nice skin and I'm not tan. I'm the whitest girl on the planet. And, like, so when I don't look tan, my scars show up a lot more. And that's why.

And on camera, they get picked up. Like, if you take a picture of my skin, if look at it like this it's one thing if you take a picture of it the camera for some reason picks up all of the different colors in my skin and magnifies them and that's why i like to get tan i never noticed it once because i was tan i think and i also cover it up thank you but i cover up i i don't i'm not i was not I was in a wetsuit. Like you never saw it. Yeah, but I don't think anyone's looking at that. You're so sharp and smart and beautiful. I don't think people.

Well, they don't look at it because I hide it carefully. No, because on camera, it really comes out. I'm telling you. I mean, listen, you are gorgeous and you obviously take care of yourself and you're very conscious about the way you look. If something bothered you about your body, you would it i have 100 i guess and i understand that i also think that that you asked me would i ever do the show i think the hardest thing about the show is the girl strips that would that would make me sweat for days because it's going away for three days with a lot of women and a lot of drama and a lot of dynamic.

And whose room is this? It's easier to just get a hotel room down the street. But it's almost like you can't because that's the show. Yeah. We've been talking a lot about how difficult men are. But I will say I have never encountered a situation where me or any of my friends gave a shit. What kind of flight or how someone got somewhere or if they slept over or not i don't think men are difficult i think that women want men's attention and women want men to be when they want to be adored and they want to be and and we spend so much time trying

to get your attention all of like and the fact matter is like we don't really understand the cues sometimes like i grew up with a complete wrong idea of how to get your attention. And it's just interesting to me. I have found a totally different love and adoration for men in this part of my life where I'm not seeking their sexual attention because I get a totally different version. I get a much like,

because I'm in it, but it's the signals that I'm sending. The men haven't changed, but I changed. I grew up with two sisters and i say this all the time like my advice to them was always like if you're interested in someone like don't show so much interest all the time because their friend yeah like and i also think that you know we are wired i think as men to like we really enjoy the pursuit and the chase and i'd like in a little bit of denial is not the worst right i think it's it's just like how we're wired a bit like lauren lauren ignored me for 10 15 years and also you don't have to play games like you can just be straightforward you don't you can

just say hey are you good do you want to hang out on friday and if they say no great like done like don't overthink it too i think there's a lot of like game playing and i think that also enters into it. Yeah. And like, okay, I'm going to wait two days to call them and then I'm going to see if he texts me.

I'm like, oh my God. Like just call, just either, if you want to see someone be like, oh, hey, do you want to do something on Friday?

Like also I think sometimes men appreciate when you're just like straightforward and not like, oh, waiting for them to call and by the phone. Oh, well,

what are you doing? It's like, oh God. It's exhausting. Yeah. We're kind of like just big dub animals. We're like, I don't like the games being played and we don't know that the game i know there is a game i know we're like over here playing some game and like we're the only ones it's over complicating it

yeah like lauren's like you know she always used to tell me i played this game with you i'm like i i don't i was not aware of a game my game works i don't even know the sport is happening i admit it i love a game i love a. I still play games 10 years in. Did you know that? Ignore his calls. Here's the thing. Wait, do you really? Yeah, all the time.

Did you know that she does that? Yeah, but why I'm so confident in the relationship with my wife is I'm sure she has endless options and possibilities. Glad you know it. But I look at her and I'm like, let's find the poor motherfucker that can go and deal

with this shit all the time. Good luck, Lauren. You guys are so sweet. That guy would last or that girl would last three days. The games would start happening. No one could deal with you either.

You really ignore his calls. All the time. I ignore texts. She does this to me all the time. If he acts up, either. You really ignore his calls all the time. I ignore texts. If he acts up, I block him. I play games all the time. She will block me. Wow. Oh my God, I love you even more.

Wow. And you're still, you don't, do you do it to her? No. No, but like, but I mean, I don't know. I think like it doesn't offend me and I don't care. And I know where I stand with my, yeah. And I like,

so I was explaining it to Wolf yesterday. I fell in love with the person that my wife is and that's who I desire and find exciting. And I wouldn't want her to not be that. And when, when people comment like, oh, I wouldn't do this. And I'm like,

well, I would, that's fine for you. That's your relationship. Like, good luck. I don't know. I think the thing about a successful relationship is, and again, why well i would that that's fine for you that's your relationship like good luck like i don't know i think the thing about that successful race relationship is and again why i don't think it's good to invite everybody else in is what works in a relationship

should that should just be applied to that relationship totally what do you guys fight about the most me being late uh time management um his impatience. Wow. Do you agree with this so far? I could be impatient. His bluntness, his delivery. My delivery can be blunt. The delivery.

The delivery needs a softer landing. I grew up with a half Japanese mother. My grandma's full Japanese. Really? Yeah. You don't look like you have any Japanese in you at all. Yeah, I know. I'm a bunch of stuff,

but there was no tenderness around the delivery, if that makes sense. No, believe me, I work who's korean and i we joke about it all the time because the things that come out of her mouth she's like it's my mother i just can't help it it's my mother and it's the cutest thing and i and i adore her but it's funny her delivery is like it's like it's well it's just very direct and there is no like sort of sugarcoating anything and here i am like adding 75 words to like make something land softer. And she's like, what are you talking about? I have not earned, learned the art of kind of not sharing exactly how I feel. He'll learn. It'll be as well. When, when you go from doing what you did at J.Crew to being the entrepreneur, and I think you were an entrepreneur within J.Crew,

but I think now you're like really like letting your personality fly with Love Scene. What was that like? Was that a transition? I mean, in so many ways. And I think I have stumbled and gotten up and stumbled and gotten up. I mean, I think, you know, I went from having a corporate life and structure and sort of a real rhythm. And I knew where you know I knew who to call for everything and everyone picked up my phone call and when I asked for something to get like you know I could I was you know had a really big job and I was moving a lot of different parts and I went from having like a tiny team no one to change the toilet paper in the bathroom like who's in charge of the con edison bill is that me you know like little things like filing up for a patent and you know i was really my fish out of

water also fundraising like things that i just never done before and so i it's been hard i will not lie like it's been you know i went from having three assistants and people who worked in the pr and handled everything for me and all of a sudden i didn't have anyone taking care of me and i how big was your team at j crew when you were at the height of it? My team was 870-something. And you have to understand, Michael, she was responsible, I'm just going to brag for you for a second, of getting J.Crew's pieces on some of the biggest, most amazing celebrity royals.

I'm aware of her. I've done my research. Like, yeah, like it was like you, you had this finesse about you of not only to create these beautiful pieces, but then to, like you said, get them on the right people in the right spaces. It's almost like you were influencer marketing before influencer marketing was a thing.

Well, the thing I think people don't totally understand is that J.Crew was three brands. So it's J.Crew, Madewell, and Factory. So I had three different design teams, three different marketing teams. It was massive. So I was the president of over all three of those. So it was just a massive job. And I was spending, I mean, my schedule was from 8.30 and went to 6 o'clock, no breaks.

And then I would go home and then I would be on the phone again. It was just constant. So I was exhausted all the time. And I think, you know, I didn't stop to like actually be creative. I think I was literally just was talking to someone this morning about this. It's like, I never had any time to be creative. And it's just why I left. I think that that's the biggest difference in my life now is like, I get to be creative in a way that I haven't in a really long time. It's so much better. You like it better. I'm much happier now. Yeah. It's so interesting that you go from having a team of 800 with three assistants and all the things that check all the boxes that society thinks we need to check to doing it on your own terms how you want it. Maybe it's a smaller

operation, but you just have space and time in your calendar to be creative want it maybe it's a smaller operation but you just have space and time in your calendar to be creative and fluid it's makes you happier oh I mean less is more yeah I had exactly like and I think you know we talked earlier about like what what some what is success someone being successful and I what I labeled a success back then versus now is completely different you know I don't have a corner office. I don't have, you know, all of the trappings. I don't get huge bonuses, but I literally can have a conversation and look someone in the eye and hear what they say and remember it later. And I can go to breakfast this morning and come here and do this podcast and I'll go home and I'll walk.

I might stop in a store on the way home and I'll grab a coffee and I'll get to wander a little bit. And I don't have that kind of like treadmill vibe to my life, which it was soul crushing. I was exhausted. It's a relief. Oh, my God. So much so. I literally just saw one of the people this morning on my way here. I ran into a girl who used to work there and she just left.

And she was like practically in tears. She's like, I am so excited to like have free time and to have my life back. And it's true. It's like working in a corporate job. It's like intense. I don't know if you've ever, have you ever worked in a corporate environment?

I've never worked in a corporate environment. I've always wanted to work for myself. I don't think I would be very good at being told. What I've always wondered when you reached that level, I guess, or those heights in a corporate environment, and then now you're doing what you're doing now as an entrepreneur, which environment is more stressful? Oh, that one is way more stressful.

The corporate environment. Oh, my God. I mean, it doesn't mean I don't have stresses now, but the hard part is now in the relationship to it is I get to look at every single decision and understand it fully. And I don't have to go and ask eight million people how to fix something. If I believe something is the right idea, I can sit with it. It's my own and I move forward or I don't. There, what's challenging is if I may believe that this is the right way to go, but now I have to bring all these other people along with me.

And if they don't see, if we're not seeing eye to eye, it's like a horn lock. And then where do you go from that? And then you have all these people looking at you, wanting you to... There's so much riding on every decision. There's so many people whose lives you're responsible for. There's so many people on your team who don't like their boss, think they should get more money, want a raise, just had a baby, can't find a nanny. There's just so much complication to all of the staffing that

those things become bigger than anything else. And it's so hard. It's one of the main reasons when we ever talk about business that I caution people against actually running a business they really want it. Because I think people focus on the product or the revenue or the service or the things. But what I say is when you become responsible for other people's well-being and they're looking to you to make smart decisions so that their life is not impacted in a negative way, that's the type of stuff. Managing a business, I'm sure, as you know, during the pandemic, which- It killed us.

And listen, there's always difficult times. But I could not make a bunch of selfish decisions that would only impact. Every decision is going to have an impact on someone else's life. And I think that's the stress that people don't talk about enough, whether it's in a corporate environment or an entrepreneur. When you're somebody working in a system, you're thinking about, of course, the team, but it's mostly your well-being. When you're responsible for a lot of people that is different than being responsible

for even like the revenue or the dollars. It's just a whole thing. So intense. And the thing is, if you're in, if you've worked in an environment, any kind of environment where you actually have a creative endeavor, you know, that team is everything. You are nothing without the people who you work with. The quality of what you do has everything to do with the quality of the people that are on your team. And so then you care about them and then you really get drawn in and sucked into whatever problem is happening.

And it could be, you know, listen, I've had every myriad of problems you could possibly imagine. And it's, you know, it takes so much emotional energy and it takes it away from the rest of your life. Whatever emotional energy goes into your job, I find it was draining my emotional energy at home. And it was really hard. I don't think I could, I don't see myself ever going back to that type of role because I just don't think I want to live my life that way anymore.

Where can everyone find you, support what you're doing, pimp yourself out? You can find me at JennaLionsNYC or at lovescene.com. Thank you for coming on. You can come back anytime. Thank you both. Seriously, because I could have talked to you about 100 different things. Same. I think you guys are awesome. And I'm so enamored by your relationship.

It's so nice to see. I'm really touched by it. I go and sob in the bathroom after every show. Please do. It's very nice. Thank you. Thank'm like really touched by it. I go and sob in the bathroom after every show. Please do. It's very nice. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for coming on.