The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Nedra Glover Tawwab On How To Set Boundaries & Find Peace, A Guide To Reclaiming Yourself

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her. I think sometimes when we're getting those text messages that drain us, not responding to them until we're really able to give it energy.

Starting point is 00:00:36 Sometimes we feel pressured to respond based on who it's coming from. So we're like, oh, my gosh, I have to respond to this. So the number one way I suggest protecting your energy is being mindful of your energy. And we're back again, talking boundaries with another phenomenal guest on the Skinny Confidential, him and her show, Nedra Glover Tawwab is on the show, author of Set Boundaries and Find Peace. On this episode, we're talking all about how to set healthy boundaries, how to communicate those boundaries to people while also staying

Starting point is 00:01:10 firm in our own lives and also not disappointing people. For those of you that are new to the show, my name is Michael Bostic. I'm a serial entrepreneur and brand builder, most recently and currently the CEO of the Dear Media Podcast Network. And today I'm joined, obviously, as always, by my co-host, my wife, my partner in crime, Lauren Everts Bostic. First of all, I just want to say that when I read about this book that she was writing, I immediately was intrigued to have her on the show because this is a topic that I don't feel like gets enough airtime. And to be blunt and transparent, it's a topic that I actually struggle with a lot. I struggle with it when it comes to text messages. I know that sounds weird. We'll get into it. I

Starting point is 00:01:51 struggle with it when it comes to knowing when to say no or over committing myself. So this episode was incredibly powerful for me. I would recommend this episode to anyone who wants to set boundaries. We go over physical boundaries, sexual, emotional, generosity boundaries. There's all kinds of different boundaries that if you really dissect it are super interesting. Nedra is a therapist, a content creator, and an author. And ultimately, she helps people create healthy relationships. This book was immediately ordered on my Amazon account. It's called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. This book gives you all the juice when it comes to boundaries.

Starting point is 00:02:30 And I think there's so many people that relate to this topic of boundaries. To give a quick blurb from Nedra's website, here's a blurb from the book. End the struggles, speak up for what you need, and experience the freedom of being truly yourself. Everybody wants that. Healthy boundaries, we all know we should have them in order to achieve work-life balance, cope with toxic people and enjoy rewarding relationships with partners, friends, and family. But what do healthy boundaries really mean? This is why I love this conversation so much. It can help everybody, whether you feel like you have good boundaries or whether you feel like you need to work a little harder to establish them. This episode is for you. With that,

Starting point is 00:03:04 Nedra, welcome to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. Nedra, thank you so much for being on the show. We're so excited to be here. I'm so personally excited because I've been talking to my wife about boundaries for a very long time. And we're talking a little bit right before the interview. I feel like I'm in a good place. You'd always get better about setting boundaries. My wife, I think, could use your expertise, in my opinion. I could be wrong. I might get beat up for that. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Where do you start with boundaries when you coach people? I start with what's not going well. So typically, people have an idea of

Starting point is 00:03:46 all of the things that they dislike in their relationships, but they are not clear about boundaries being a reasonable solution for those things. So the relationship can be work, family, friends, social media, any sort of thing that you're connected to. And we talk about some strategies around bringing that to a healthier space for you. And I'll give you some quick signs that you might need some boundaries. Sign number one is typically feeling overwhelmed or burned out, feeling anxious, feeling depressed, feeling upset, feeling resentful. So our intuition tells us like a problem is happening here. Typically we bypass it and we're like, no, this isn't too much. I can add one more thing. And it's like, nope. I think the headaches,

Starting point is 00:04:40 the chronic headaches, that's an indication that something is going on. What is it? So we have to start listening more to our feelings, our body signals, heart palpitations when we're doing certain things that we really didn't want to do. It is a sign that perhaps we need to be better at saying no, or we need to be better at communicating our needs. In the work that you've done, is there some kind of common personality trait or upbringing or something where there's a tendency for certain people to have difficulty setting boundaries? Because for me, I don't have so much difficulty. If something's not working, I'll be pretty vocal about it. Never rude, but I'll just say like, hey, that won't work. But for other people, maybe someone like my wife or even my best friend, there's a difficulty in setting boundaries. Is

Starting point is 00:05:28 there some kind of trait or personality trait that makes it more difficult for others to set boundaries? And also, does it have to do with the fact that my husband's a man, that he's better at setting boundaries than me? Now, I'm just, I'm actually wondering, do you find more women have problems setting boundaries than men? You know, when we write an email and it's explanation, explanation, whereas a man is more to the point. So I'll do the childhood piece first. I think most people are really aware of what their boundaries are.

Starting point is 00:06:03 And over time, we are talking out of boundaries. And that comes from our parents, other elders, teachers, people telling us it's not OK to do this. It is not OK to say that, even if those things can be helpful for us. So let's take the example of a kid eating, right? You have some parents who would say you need to eat all of your food, teaching them to bypass that boundary of actually feeling full, right? So it's like eat until you can't eat anymore because you have to finish this. So kids have boundaries. Now, I do think with some genders, is it more acceptable for boys to have boundaries versus girls? I think there is some mental exception in society that men can be more assertive and women cannot. And that starts small. That does start with children. If a boy is saying certain things, it's like, oh my gosh, he's speaking up for himself. If a girl does it, she's bossy, she's being sassy, she's telling people what to do. So those things are labeled

Starting point is 00:07:10 differently. But I would say that most kids have boundaries and that what happens is over time, we are taught not to have boundaries. We are taught that is much more important to think about, consider, and even feel uncomfortable so that people can do certain things. Now, in terms of parenting, different strokes for different folks. You may have grown up with parents who really supported you being able to use your voice. I'm that parent. And sometimes when my girls are assertive, I don't like it. But I do want them to be assertive. So now I've created a situation where I can't pick out my four year old's clothes anymore. Because I've empowered her to the point where she's like, No, I know what I want to wear. It breaks my heart. But I'm happy that she has

Starting point is 00:08:03 a grasp on her, you know, her, what she likes to wear, skirts versus jeans, and, you know, these sort of things. And I, and I honor that because it is important to teach kids within reason, what is appropriate. I think the role of the parent is to really help shape assertiveness, not necessarily talking them out of their boundaries, but really shaping how they communicate them. Because you don't want your kids to go around being mean or pushy about things, being aggressive, but you do want them to be able to advocate for themselves. How did you get so good at creating boundaries in your life? And how did you get so good at being assertive? So I would say I'm still practicing because there are situations where I'm like, oh man,

Starting point is 00:08:59 I should have said this. So it is a constant practice because new things happen. I'm really good about boundaries that I've set before, right? But as new things come up, I'm discombobulated. I'm like, I don't know what to do here. At the beginning of the pandemic, when we're at home with kids and working out and working from home, I had to get creative with new boundaries. It was a new territory. So I wasn't good at those boundaries. So I had to figure out what could work here. Perhaps there needs to be a conversation with other people about, hey, I'm working from this time to this time, so I can't call you during those times. Or, hey, when my door is closed, don't come in this room because I am likely doing an interview or something that is involving me being with a client. So renegotiating those boundaries. So sometimes

Starting point is 00:09:43 it's just practice because I don't know what will come up. I'm ashamed sometimes at the things that happen. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't need a boundary here. One of the boundaries that I'm pretty proud of myself on that I have recently created, and I would love to talk about this, is text messaging. I had this epiphany where I thought I would never expect to come into someone who's working and want them to give me their attention right away. So when someone comes and texts me when I'm working, I refuse to drop everything I'm doing to respond, of course, unless it's an emergency.

Starting point is 00:10:18 But I almost find it a little bit of a violation when people will text you and then they'll say question mark, question mark, question mark, and like sort of harass you for your time. So what I've done with my text messages is I respond to my text messages three times a week for an hour. I take an hour and I respond all at once. I don't respond reactively. I take my time. It's nothing against anyone personally. It's just because I feel like we have so many notifications now with social media that I had to create the boundary that I cannot just live in my text message inbox. My husband, on the other hand, barely responds to text message, which is another boundary. But I would love to sort of play a game with you

Starting point is 00:11:01 where I give you some scenarios and you tell me what a healthy, positive way to react is. So can we start with email? Someone emails you on a Monday and on a Tuesday, they follow up and on a Wednesday, they follow up. And it's actually rude how they're pestering you. What is something that you can respond back? Well, one, I think it depends if you're available on Wednesday. A lot of our boundaries are going to be with ourselves. So we can't force people not to email us daily. But what we can do is maybe say, I sit with emails for four days. And this is a personal thing. I sit with my emails for a few days before responding. So when people do that, I don't know if we need to communicate anything to them because lots of times it's coming from people who don't know our boundaries yet.

Starting point is 00:11:57 Now we can say maybe in our signature, when we respond to the email, hey, thank you for your patience just letting people know I'm not always connected to my phone. And so texting me does not mean that you'll get an immediate response. If something is a crisis, go ahead and give me a phone call. But if it's like you really need to know what I put in my, you know, pasta, and you must know right now, call me because if you're texting me a bunch of question marks, my brain bypasses that because I get a lot of messages. Okay. Let's do another game. How, what about someone who you're friends with that texts you on Monday and you take a few days to get back to them? Is there something that you can do to finesse that? Should you let them know upfront when you become friends

Starting point is 00:13:05 with them that you're not the best on text message? How do you handle that? They give a disclaimer that we're not the best on a text message. Is that the new world expectation that people to respond right away? I would wonder about that. Is that their request that we give an explanation or is that our need to fulfill some sort of thing we're assuming that they might think if we don't respond right away? Because if they're just becoming acquainted with you, this is part of it. This is part of your onboarding as my new friend. I don't respond to text messages right away. Now you're learning. We're getting to know each other. And what you know about me is give me a few days and I'll get to it. And some days I'll

Starting point is 00:13:51 get to it on the same day, but the expectation is not immediate. Well, I think there's two parts of that. I think that, like you said, each of us has our own boundaries and our own communication style and our own timetable. And so I think maybe some of the difficulty is maybe you're communicating with somebody that's used to an immediate response, or maybe they immediately respond to people that they communicate with in their life. So if you're somebody who doesn't respond immediately and is not connected to the phone right away, maybe that person's being offended when really what's happening in your life is you're just someone that's not connected to email and text right away.

Starting point is 00:14:30 So I think it's figuring out how to have the boundary conversation with people in your life, friends, family, acquaintances, to make it so that it's not uncomfortable and say, hey, I may take a little longer to respond because I don't live this way. And getting to a place where even if they are people that respond immediately, they are okay with that. Because I think that's where people have the difficulty is you may do something one way and I may do something different and there's a disconnect there. And then it becomes kind of this chaotic relationship. I have two more questions in my boundary game.

Starting point is 00:14:56 And one is about you. When my husband wants to talk about work when we're in bed and when it's 7 a.m. and he wakes me up asking me a question about work and I've told him 6,000 times that I don't want to talk about work when we're in the room how can I create a boundary because I'm having trouble with that so so so this goes back to you can't make them stop doing it but what you could do is not answer and if you consistently, I'm not talking about two times in a row, I'm talking about all the time, don't respond and restate the boundary,

Starting point is 00:15:34 I think he'll start to understand it. What is probably happening is you're really irritated and you answer. And so he's not understanding that there's a real boundary there because you haven't created a real boundary. You're just saying, hey, stop doing this to me. Okay, here's the information. Nedra, I don't know if that's the answer I wanted for you. That is such a good, I'm taking that to my grave. Okay, this is my last boundary sort of game. Someone invites you- I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. Someone invites you to coffee that you don't know to pick your brain.

Starting point is 00:16:10 You maybe kind of know them through someone or it's someone's cousin, sister's friend, or maybe it's even someone you went to high school with that you don't know anymore. What is a polite way to be like... Personally, for me, I don't want to go to coffee and have someone pick my brain when everything that, when they can go on my blog and look for it or my podcast or they can go to my book. There's a million other things they can do. It feels like a little bit of an invasion. Olipop is the new, the hot kind of soda. This tastes like the nostalgic sodas that you grew up with,

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Starting point is 00:18:54 In that situation, it is best to refer them to a person that they can receive this service from as mentoring, because what they're looking for is mentoring, not really picking your brain, it's asking you a bunch of questions about what you're doing. And really, that is someone's job, right? Like they're coaches, there are all sorts of things. And if you've been in a profession long enough, you know, a few of those people. So the last time that happened to me, I said, I'm not available. But here is someone who I think is wonderful, who would be able to help you with this thing. People don't understand our schedules, like they don't, they don't have our phones, they don't have our calendar. So they have no clue what we have going on. So it is always my job to communicate,

Starting point is 00:19:46 no, it's always my job to communicate, this is too much for me. And in the situation of pick my brain, and I'm not available to do that, I think it's okay to refer out. On this line of subjects, one of some of the audience questions that came in was, how do you get in a situation where you can be assertive and give that type of response while also being positive and not offending people? Because I think that's the difficulty some people have is like, none of us want to hurt people's feelings or shut people down or offend them. But at the same time, we do want to be able to communicate our boundaries.

Starting point is 00:20:18 So are there tools or tactics that you suggest to people in order to be assertive without offending? So the challenge with offending people is we never really know what's offensive. There are some things where it's like, okay, this is a blatant thing that's really offensive to people. But there are lots of things that we do that we don't know could hurt someone. We've had people apologize to me for stuff I didn't even find offensive. I didn't even care about that.

Starting point is 00:20:44 And I tell them, I just thought you were taking care of yourself. I wasn't offended by you not having me a water when you grabbed yourself a water. I thought you were thirsty, so you got one. I wasn't offended. That's fine. No apology needed. Assuming that people will be offended really keeps you from setting a boundary because the new worry becomes, they say, what they do. And if you are clearly stating a simple sentence of, I am not available to help you, I don't know how you can make that less offensive. And so if you're saying things that are attacking someone's character, you're belittling them, you're giving long

Starting point is 00:21:25 scenarios about how could they dare ask you and all of this sort of stuff. Yeah, that that might be an issue. But if you are stating, you know, one or two sentences about something, and you're being very clear and concise, I don't know when someone will be offended. And I think focusing on that is part of the problem that we really get into with setting boundaries because we're trying to mind read and we're not good at mind reading. We're not. I want to discuss boundaries with bridge trolls. Bridge trolls are people online that have no picture. They follow no people and they go to social media accounts and say horrible, nasty, mean things. How do you deal with protecting your community and your social media when someone has something nasty to say? That's a fake account. I block them. I talk to people online because I realize

Starting point is 00:22:23 they are strangers to me. When people say negative things, they are strangers to me. When people say negative things, they are strangers to me. And there are some things that I might write and people don't understand the context, especially if they're first seeing something. People will, you know, in the caption say, oh my gosh, you said this about boundaries and this is so mean. And what I've said is, you know, something like communicate to your parents that you aren't coming home for the holidays. And there is someone who in the comments is like, this is the meanest thing you could ever say. You're heartless. And it's like, okay, I don't think this is helpful. I will delete and block this person because what I'm trying to do is help people be assertive. And you're in this community, really shaming them for assertiveness. And so that's something that can't happen here. And so on Instagram, on social media is so important that as the holders of the accounts that we really take community serious, and we get these people out of there because there may be some things that people don't like,

Starting point is 00:23:31 but also know that I'm not the person for you to follow in this situation. If you're saying these mean things, I'll have a certain level of positive energy that I want on my page and you're not a part of that process. And so you need to be dismissed. I consider it like kicking somebody out your house. They're not a good house guest. Yeah, I love that response. You touched on something in a previous answer that I think is really important to go back to, which is we get in this headspace, us as individuals, where we're constantly trying to think about what someone may be offended by or what their reaction will be. And I think you kind of go down this spiral of creating all these random scenarios in your head that may not even exist. It's something that we

Starting point is 00:24:07 are fabricating in our mind. When you work with people, how do you coach them out of getting out of that headspace, like constantly being worried about offending or letting someone down? I think this pertains especially to maybe you're letting a family member down or a friend, and maybe they're not even offended, but it's in our head. It just don't want to, we don't want to, it's like people pleasing. How do you get out of that? Well, one really fun thing that I do is I let them talk about it for a few minutes. And then at the end of it, I'll say something very profound. Like what if it's none of them? You just said they could say this, they could do that. You created a whole story about their dog. You brought your dog into it. Now we have this whole thing. What if it's none of that? And they just say, okay. My husband says I create narratives in my head.

Starting point is 00:24:49 Well, I think because I love your advice about just giving a polite, quick sentence about this is the boundary. It really doesn't have any feelings. It's just, that's my boundary. I think sometimes Lauren will get in trouble where she'll create the scenario of what the person will think and feel and how to let them down. And maybe, like you said, maybe it's none of that. But in her mind, it is all these things. And I think that makes it very difficult to be assertive and set boundaries. In my book, I talk a little bit about this, like ruminating about the worst case scenario as an anxiety, that we're really tapping into that anxiety where we're replaying what could happen,

Starting point is 00:25:26 what they might say, what they said to someone else in a similar situation. It really goes into this like worst case scenario thinking like we have no idea. And really to have our needs met, we need to think about what we want. And it can't be to please everyone. That can't be the thing or you will not have any boundaries. Some ways I protect my energy are I don't look at my phone in the morning for two hours. I try to take a walk in the morning. I try to set the tone. And then at night, I kind of put my phone away and do the same thing. I would love to know some micro ways that you protect your energy or that you encourage your clients and your readers to protect theirs. I think sometimes when we're getting those text messages that drain us,

Starting point is 00:26:17 not responding to them until we're really able to give it energy. Sometimes we feel pressured to respond based on who it's coming from. So we're like, oh my gosh, I have to respond to this. So the number one way I suggest protecting your energy is being mindful of your energy. And when you start to feel your energy being drained by people and things shifting, if you start to feel like

Starting point is 00:26:44 I can't get out of the bed in the morning because I'm looking at my phone for an hour, shift. If you start to feel like every time I watch this news program, I'm feeling sad afterwards, shift. And so we have to be very clear of this is the thing draining my energy. And that's not going to be the same for everyone. There are some people who can watch 14 hours of the news and they feel fine. And there are some people who can watch 10 minutes and they're just in pieces. And so we have to be very conscious of not what everybody else is doing, but what I need to do for my energy to be alive. Juneshine.

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Starting point is 00:29:50 have the most difficulties. You can set boundaries with strangers because there is no connection, but maybe you have that family member that's asking a lot of you and they're your family, so you don't want to let them down, or it's a friend. When it gets to that level of intimacy, what do you tell people in order to be able to set boundaries without alienating their family and friends? Well, one thing, especially when it's our parents, it's important to remember that you're an adult now and that as an adult, you can be empowered to own your life. And your parents probably had boundaries with their parents. And if they didn't, they should have. So it's completely okay in these relationships to reshape the roles because you've changed.

Starting point is 00:30:34 The dynamics have changed. You are now living on your own. You may be married. You may be partnered. You may have children. And all of these things call for different boundaries. So in family relationships, yes, that can be tough when you've always been the little brother, when you've always been the dorky cousin and people want to still treat you this way.

Starting point is 00:30:57 It's not okay. And it's all right for you to reshape those things and to talk to people as those things come up. I'm no longer like the nickname, please stop it. Call me this instead of that. For the holidays, we'll be rotating between coming here and staying home. Just really starting to be an adult in those relationships and step out of that child role, all of that little brother, little cousin, or whatever that is, child role, because that's a part of growing up. A part of growing up is being the adult in all relationships. The holidays are a big one, right? Lauren and I have set the boundary now where sometimes we go and see the family and sometimes we're gone. And I think it's important

Starting point is 00:31:41 to remember that you're the adult now and you have your own families. The one caveat I do give to young people where there is difficulty setting boundaries, parents, if you're still living at their home or still on the parent's payroll, you may not have as much leeway because if they're still supporting your life financially or you're living in their house, you may not have the freedom that someone who isn't taking resources from the family may have. That's just my opinion. Because if they're still supporting your lifestyle, they do have maybe some right to tell you how to live or what to do if you're taking money from them. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:12 I do feel like when I was a teenager, I had some boundaries. I didn't have zero. I mean, I don't have as many as I might have right now, but I did have some. My boundaries, stop eating red meat. And so my boundary, to honor that boundary, I started cooking my own meals. My mom would sneak in a little pork here and there. And I'm like, no, no, no, girl, I can't eat that. So it's like, there are some things you can do.

Starting point is 00:32:36 It's not that you can't do anything. So I would think about what little micro boundaries you could start to set, even if you're at home. Are there things that maybe you don't want to talk about with your parents? That's a boundary you could set. You don't have to be an open book in areas where you may not want their opinion. That's a boundary that you could set, even if they are still funding your lifestyle. What's something in your book that you wrote about that really is resonating with a lot of people? I have a portion of the book and I talk about little B and big B violations. And I talk about the difference between micro boundaries and macro boundaries. The micro boundaries are the ones that we encounter with strangers, with these

Starting point is 00:33:26 acquaintances, with these relationships that we are irritated by sometimes, but not necessarily those really deep rooted connections. So like the email where the person keeps emailing you every day, or the grocery store worker who might over disclose something. But the macro is the relationships that you've had these long standing issues in. And that would be the codependency, the enmeshment, the trauma family, those sort of things are really big boundary issues. And they're not like these little, little annoyances. It's like, this is a long standing problem. And this is something that will need a whole treatment process to really recover from because you won't be able to do it by just saying this,

Starting point is 00:34:17 this really tiny thing one time, because there has been such a long pattern in the relationship of boundary violations. Relationships, marriages. What are some tools and tactics that we can apply within our marriage when it comes to boundaries? Communicating your needs. I think that's one of the biggest things that couples don't do. And there is so much resentment in marriages based off of this person should know. And the should know is really based off of like mind reading, body language, what you asked for maybe six years ago and the person forgot. So we operate off of the, they should know,

Starting point is 00:35:03 like if they were carrying four bags, wouldn't they want help? And it's like, maybe they wouldn't. If that is your need for help when you're carrying four bags, you have to say, hey, can you help me with my bags? Just for the record, I 100% always want help if I'm carrying four bags. Just so he knows. Go ahead. Sometimes I feel like I need a couple different maps to figure all this out. I just had to remind him. Go ahead. Have you ever seen that meme where it's like the guy has all the numbers and charts in his head, and he's trying to figure everything out? That's sometimes how I feel. Yeah. I certainly think it's one of those things that we want the partner that can read our minds

Starting point is 00:35:42 and just figure it out. And that is the perfect relationship, right? It's like they know everything that I need. That is not the realistic relationship. The realistic relationship is you really communicating these things and probably having to repeat them because they are not the other person's needs. And so sometimes they just forget. It's not out of trying to be mean to you. It's not them trying to dig at you. It's really them forgetting. It's kind of like me forgetting stuff that I don't think is a big deal. So I might forget to do some of these things for

Starting point is 00:36:19 my partner because it's not something that I need. And so in relationships, it's so important to continuously communicate those needs. And like you asked me those questions earlier, it's so important to continue to ask questions. Because as we grow, our needs shift. And sometimes if we are basing who we're married to on when we met them seven years ago, we're missing the mark because things are different. And it might not be major differences, but a few things might be different. So a lot of the conversations we need to have, yeah, we think we know everything, but we need refreshers. What if you communicate what you need to your partner and they're not responsive? Depending on what it is, I would wonder, are there ways that you could better deliver the

Starting point is 00:37:12 boundary? Are there things that you need to change on your end? Is there some consequence that you need to initiate with this person? And also, is the need realistic? Because sometimes in relationships, I don't want to genderize this, but I'm going to do it. And I just made up a word, but women will say, he doesn't listen like my friends listen. You look at stuff about how men and women talk, and it's different. So to have the expectation that every time that you say something it's still not going to be 100% of everything. We have to look at improvements as improvements and not just these like, he made a complete shift. He's a little bit better with this thing because things are just hard for other people. And so we have to think about what's reasonable, what's realistic, what can I live with, what is like a deal breaker.

Starting point is 00:38:27 It's super important to know all of that. And not everything can be on one list. It has to be like, this is something I can live with. It's not that big of a deal. I'll figure out a different way to work through this thing. Well, I think one thing you touched on there, we have a tendency, all of us as human beings, when we want something to change, we want everybody else to change before we change. I feel like, and I'll put that as a generality for all of us, right? It's a beautiful thing when you can change yourself to change your environment. But I think, especially in

Starting point is 00:38:58 relationships, intimate relationships, most of the time, and I'm guilty of this, you say, well, I want something to change. You need to change to fit what I want. And I think that you can get into a dangerous place there because like you said, you get in relationships with these people and they are who they are. And then as time goes on, you're like, wait a minute, I want you to continue to change to fit my needs. But I think the couple needs to change together and evolve together. And I'd love to get your take on that. One big boundary in relationships that we should honor is acceptance. We are meeting a person as they are, right? And it's like, you have to decide if you like this.

Starting point is 00:39:36 That's really what dating is. Do I like this? Are these things that I can deal with? And if you cannot, how can you work with those things? Most of us wouldn't be in relationships with people if we didn't have some things that we absolutely adore. So how do we work with these things that we don't like? Is it always the other person changing those things? Or is it us learning to live with those things we can't change? And it's a question that you have to answer. I mean, some things, is it such an annoyance that I need to leave this relationship?

Starting point is 00:40:15 How did you get so attracted to this line of work? Was there a story behind how you fell into this or was it natural? You know, I think it was aligned with so many things. When I first client, I didn't realize it until I was thinking about this book. But my first client had issues with boundaries. It was a family situation. And he was becoming an adult. And he wanted to have these rules with the level of information his family had about his life. It was a boundary issue. And when I started practicing as a therapist 14 years ago, so many people had all of these issues. And at the time, again, I didn't realize it, but work-life balance,

Starting point is 00:41:03 anxiety in their relationships, frustration with their partner, where we were talking about boundaries without using the B word. When I started going to therapy in college, I was talking about boundaries without using the B word. It was just expectations. What do people think? It was all these other words. But as I've grown more as a therapist, I'm like, these are boundary issues. These are boundary issues. And it's been so helpful to help shape the work and to look at it from that perspective. Because before that,

Starting point is 00:41:35 I'm applying all of this stuff that is a little bit helpful. But it was like, now this people, oh, this is exactly how to navigate this issue. It does help direct how I'm able to help people. So here's a little backstory on Ancestry.com. They sent us these kits. I gave one to Michael, one to me. We opened them up quickly, super easy. And then we spit in a little tube and then we put them back in them up quickly, super easy. And then we spit in a little tube and then we put them back in the kits and sent them off. And then we got our results.

Starting point is 00:42:09 And it was so easy and so cool. Ancestry DNA test tells you where your ancestors are from and Ancestry's billions of records and millions of family trees let you discover their personal stories. There's even stories about how people have found a famous relative, discovered a photo of their great grandma as a little girl. Whatever you find, it's really cool, and I would highly recommend it. My thing is now giving an ancestry DNA kit to my friends and family as a birthday gift, and they go wild. People on Christmas were like, this is such a fun gift to get to know your roots better. I know Michael thought this was absolutely amazing because he could discover everything about his ethnic origins. I thought

Starting point is 00:42:49 it was cool. And like I said, it's a good gift. Well, there's always been questions on my dad's side. I know my mom's side, she's half Italian, half Japanese, and that was reflected in the result. But I didn't know that I was part Irish, part Scottish. I didn't know any of that stuff. I found it through my DNA because my old man wasn't telling me. So it's a really cool way to kind of get your background, understand any preexisting conditions, understand what's going on with your DNA, your partner's DNA, and learn more about yourself. And it's as simple as just spitting in a tube and sending it back. I like how you don't have to prick your finger. I don't want to prick my finger. I'm scared of needles. This is better. It's also helpful if you decide to have children to be able to look out for

Starting point is 00:43:21 what could exist in your family, what's going on in your DNA so that when you you go to the doctor and when you talk to your doctors, you can give them that family history and they can have an extra set of eyes or an extra set of ears or an extra set of information to look out for things in the future that could potentially be harmful to your health. Start exploring your family story today. Head to our URL at ancestry.com slash skinny to get your Ancestry DNA kit and start your free trial. That's Ancestry.com slash skinny. I think you'll love it. How do you forgive someone without continuing the relationship? I've forgiven a lot of people in my life, but there's a lot of people I've

Starting point is 00:44:05 forgiven that I just feel like we go separate ways and I'm not mad and I don't have any grudge and I don't feel resentful. I just feel like it's ended its course. How do you do that? I think it's like you said, like if it fizzles out, there's either conversation around it, or there is just a disconnect. And you cannot be angry at somebody, but also not want a relationship with them. And a piece of that is your acknowledgement that they have, maybe they have these things going on, or they have some sort of issue in the relationship that you can't accept. You can't accept this level of treatment or dysfunction in the relationship and you love them humanly

Starting point is 00:44:52 and you can remember all of the good times, but this was such a thing that you're unwilling to continue. It's okay to do that. I think sometimes with forgiveness, we absolutely think like, forgive and we have all of these tragic signs, forgive and forget, let bygones be bygones. And for me, it's like, I and you gone. Like,

Starting point is 00:45:13 it's like, you did that and I wish you well, but that's it for me. You know, I don't have to continue to allow you access just because I love you. There are some things that I can't deal with, particularly when things are patterned. Sometimes when we get to the point of severing ties with people, it's because there has been a pattern of something. It's not the first time that they've done this thing. It's like, this is the 10th. And once they do it multiple times, it's kind of like, oh, this is a part of their whole thing. And so you're not taking the ending of a relationship lightly.

Starting point is 00:45:50 You thought about it and you say, this doesn't work for me. And that's okay. And we can miss people who are no longer in our lives. I think about friends from middle school and, you know, all of these sort of things. Great times. We don't need to reconnect necessarily. You know, it was great times. That's a part of being human. We don't even have the capacity to keep all of the relationships that we create over the span of our life. It's no way possible. I really want to talk about that. I feel like we really need to hit on this.

Starting point is 00:46:22 I read something, and tell me if I'm wrong wrong that you only have the capacity to have 30 meaningful relationships. I feel like a lot of people don't understand that. Can you speak on like just human nature when it comes to how many relationships we can actually show up for and be present in? 30. I mean, when you said 30, I was like, ooh. That's maybe too many. I don't know. This was a Facebook quote. So it could have it I might be wrong. No, no, exactly what that number would be. And I would bet that it's different for most of us, because I bet you introverts will have a different number from extroverts. And so it really depends on how much energy you're allowed to you could give out and how much you can absorb. So I think that would depend. But what I will say is the average friendship lasts about seven years. And so

Starting point is 00:47:11 every seven years or so we recycle our friends. Why? Because we change. Your roles in life change, your friends from high school to college may change, your friends from early parenthood to mid parenthood, early, all of these things, as we shift, our friends may shift. Some of us are fortunate enough to shift with some of those friendships, not all. Some of them were able to maintain some sort of, okay, this is a little different, but oh, it's a little better again. We can maintain that a little bit. But when things fizzle out, it's not always a bad thing. It's just a sign that we're going in different directions. We are growing separately. Life has changed. I've moved. I'm busier, whatever. Things are not as they were, and that is okay. We can't keep everybody. We can

Starting point is 00:48:07 keep some. If it's 30, then that's great. But I think about if you had to have a party, who are those people? And then when you think about the 30 people there, if you had to 10 off the list, who would you knock off first? So I think just kind of really thinking about who's in your group is, it could be a helpful way to think about how many people you could stay connected to. Last point, as you get older, the connections change. When you're younger, you have so much energy. We see our friends every single day in school, right? As we get older, we might have a class with them here and there. Now it's like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen them in six months.

Starting point is 00:48:51 Maybe we can talk once a month. There are some people who may not appreciate a once a month and there will be some people who will. And that shapes whether you can stay in a relationship with a person. So there are so many dynamics around closeness, but I think it's useful always to have a good group of healthy relationships

Starting point is 00:49:14 because relationships, healthy ones do prolong our life. I've tried to really look at the good things that have come out of this pandemic and try not to focus too much on the bad things. And one thing that I think that's been really cool that's come out of this pandemic and try not to focus too much on the bad things. And one thing that I think that's been really cool that's come out of this is we have been able to spend more time with the people that we really love. Some of us obviously not

Starting point is 00:49:35 because we can't see our parents or grandparents, but if you're in a marriage or you have a roommate that you're living with or you're with your child, you've been able to really foster those relationships. This is kind of a side note, but I would just love to know selfishly, how did you write your book? And what I mean by that is, did you write for an hour in the morning? Did you write for five hours in the afternoon? I'm very curious whenever someone comes on that's an author, how they actually created systems to get the full book done.

Starting point is 00:50:10 Let me tell you about Versed. Versed is so on brand because it's the cleanest drugstore skincare brand available out there. You guys, they're vegan, sustainably minded, and hyper-focused on bringing you real results with proven ingredients that your bank account appreciates. Let me tell you, they have this eye cream. Okay. It's like an eye mask. They call it the emergency eye mask and you use it. And I'm telling you, it de-puffs your under eye bags. How I know this is Michael actually tried it along with me. And I saw a visible difference. Another thing that I have talked about on this show so many times is their lip oil. Okay. This lip oil lays so nicely under a lipstick. You know how sometimes when you put like a chapstick on and then you put a lipstick on

Starting point is 00:50:56 and your lips get cracked, this lip oil completely prevents that. So you're going to have these luscious plump lips and it's such a nice primer before a lipstick. You can also wear it without a lipstick, but either way, these are the two products that I recommend. Just a little bit about Versed. They stand by their formulas because they have proven ingredients at skin changing levels. So you're going to get those results, but it's not going to break the bank. They also have banned 1,350 toxins to ensure their products are safe for our bodies and the planet. I love this because sometimes when you go to the drugstore, it's not clean ingredients, but this is like mixing the best of both worlds. You're going to get 10% off for first-time users when you shop at FirstSkin.com with promo code SKINNY.

Starting point is 00:51:40 That's V-E-R-S-E-D-S-K-I-N.com. Use promo code skinny 10 off for first-time users with promo code skinny available at first skin.com that's v-e-r-s-e-d-s-k-i-n.com with promo code skinny try the lip oil out i'm telling you and while you're at it since it's so affordable pick up the fix it's called the fix emergency eye mask. Those two things are going to rock your world. There's something that I think the whole entire audience will really love. So I am a practicing therapist and I did not want to ghost my clients. And so what I decided to do was shift my schedule a bit. So on Mondays and Fridays, I didn't see clients.

Starting point is 00:52:32 I didn't do anything but write. And I would write for about seven hours. And my goal was a chapter a week. And at the end of writing the book is when I edited the book and so I would say it took me I took off a few weeks for like holidays because I started mid-October 2019 and I was finished by March. That's still that's pretty quick right? Quick I wouldn't say it's very hard it's that's very very like time quick right it's quick i wouldn't say it's it's very hard it's that's very very like time consuming though quick but time consuming it's a lot of work yes and and

Starting point is 00:53:10 part of that is because you really motivate it by people telling me this seems like a big thing and i don't know if you'll be so if you say like i don't know if you can do it that's all i need to hear that's why that just gives me a level of focus that nothing else can like oh you think i could fail yeah so my agent i was giving her like this super long time thing like i think it'll take me nine months she was like i really think you could do it in a week you you lunch with her a week and she's like yeah like you you could do it and i was i was able to a lot of the things that a boundary I set with myself was to not go back and look at what I wrote during that week,

Starting point is 00:53:52 because that would really slow down the process just being like, is this okay? Is this okay? Because it didn't need to be perfect. It needed to be out there in the commas and proofreading and all of that stuff that was done at the end. So that really helped just to be able to sit and write and not judge myself in what I wrote. So the two days a week, I would say if I had to give it like a time frame, it was probably about 45 days, 45 days of driving. Those are really good tips for anyone who wants to write a book. I love the idea of doing a chapter a week. Can you pimp yourself out in your book to our audience? Tell us where we can find you, your book, who needs your book, what it's about, everything. So I am most present on Instagram and at Nedra Tawwab. My book is Set Boundaries, Find Peace. Who needs boundaries? Everyone. Who needs

Starting point is 00:54:54 peace? Everyone. I wrote the book that because I think our peace is so disturbed by not having boundaries. And so I just wanted to give it like a quick little set boundaries and find the peace because that is what we're missing. And so every single person on the planet could benefit. I was talking to someone who was like, I have great boundaries. And when they finished with me, they bought the book because we went through like some areas and I was like, oh, you have a good boundary here, you have a good boundary there. And we're like, oh my gosh, perhaps I am not even that your boundaries are unhealthy, but are you violating other people's boundaries? You may be doing it and not even knowing it and asking people intrusive questions.

Starting point is 00:55:39 There are so many things that we do that maybe we don't realize. And so I think this book is just a great way to understand boundaries. I had one more question because I see a little of a time. I have one more question that came in that I think is important that we didn't touch on, boundaries in the workplace. There's a lot of people that talk about work-life balance and maybe they don't know how to set a boundary with their boss or their manager or how to balance between their personal life and their work life. And I think it's a really scary thing to try to set boundaries in your job because obviously you don't want to put it in jeopardy,

Starting point is 00:56:13 but at the same time, you need to be able to do it professionally so that you can stay sane. Do you have any advice for any of your patients or any of your readers to set boundaries in the workplace? Absolutely. With yourself, it's one that I mentioned earlier, putting something in the signature to let people know your availability can be really helpful. I think number two is really you honoring the boundaries. So if you say to people, I'm not available after 7pm, do not be available after 7pm.m. Because if you become available, you no longer have a boundary around being available after 7 p.m. If you don't want to work on vacation,

Starting point is 00:56:52 don't take your computer and literally don't work. If you don't want to be glued to work emails, remove them from your phone. Only have them on your computer, not on your iPad, not on your iPad, not on your tablet, only on your computer. Setting up schedules around when you do what type of work could also be helpful. This is the time where I meet with people. This is the time where I respond to emails. This is the time where I create. That can be really helpful. Sometimes we do work in environments where

Starting point is 00:57:27 you can just work alone. They're accounting, legal fields, they are billable hours. And so you do have to be on, but you still get to pick your own. If you have to work from home sometimes in the evenings, what times work best for you and your family or just you? So you pick those times that anything outside of that being very boundaried about it and saying, no, this isn't a good time for me. And so just really thinking about, is it my boss or is it me? Because sometimes we'll say, oh my gosh, my boss emails at 2 a.m. And I wonder, how did you see it? Because you shouldn't have been on that work email, right? How did you get it? One of my little boundary tips for the workplace is I try to set conference calls for 15 minutes. I think that's been really helpful. I don't know

Starting point is 00:58:20 if that's a good one, but that's something that's really helped me. It's like we can accomplish this in 15 minutes instead of 30. Well, one thing the podcast has taught us is we get to have interviews with people like yourself and we cover so much ground in a 30, 45 minute window. And so what it's taught us in our work life is like, does this meeting really need to be an hour or can it be 15, 20, 30 minutes and get right to the root of whatever we're trying to solve? Yeah, I think an agenda is really important. And sometimes we walk into meetings and sometimes we just have meetings because we have meetings and we really don't have anything to talk about.

Starting point is 00:58:54 It's like we have a meeting every Wednesday. Well, what's the agenda? Meeting. That's not a reason to meet because you meet every week. Have an agenda, have something to talk about. And if you've met everything on the agenda, don't draw the meeting out. Some people will sit and meet for an hour because the meeting is one hour. Stop after 30 minutes if you're done. Weston, I'm calling my friend Weston out. Just because it's an hour doesn't mean it needs to be a full hour. Last question, and it centers around guilt because I think as you set boundaries, sometimes people feel guilt. And I'll give you a perfect example in my own life. When I got engaged and married and stopped running around with all my crazy friends, single friends, obviously my life changed, especially when I became a father. I'm not

Starting point is 00:59:38 out anymore at night running around. When I got with Lauren, I'm not out. And I had those single friends that were like, hey, where are you? Why aren't you showing up anymore? We didn't. And it's not that I don't love those guys or girls. It's just that my life has changed. And so I had to set a boundary saying like, I no longer do that. I'm no longer really out past eight or 9 PM out in a club or out in a bar. Like it's, it's maybe not as appropriate where it's not to say I don't go out with my friends, but there's a segment of those friends that kind of got left behind because we don't, they're single. I'm married with a kid.

Starting point is 01:00:06 How do you get past feeling guilty that, you know, you don't want to leave people behind, but at the same time, like you said, we change. So guilt is really interesting because guilt is one of the emotions that we really don't like to get rid of. And I think of the other emotions that we have that we just allow. Like we just allow this. We just allow joy. And I think we have to learn to just allow guilt. It doesn't feel great. It doesn't feel good, but it has a purpose. It lets you know that you really care about this thing. Does that mean that you need to change your position on what

Starting point is 01:00:43 you're doing? No, but you can still really care about that thing. Doesn't mean that you're doing a bad thing. It just means that, like you said, I miss these guys and I really miss the time that we share together. And it's okay to do that and to proceed with this new lifestyle that you're trying to have. So it's really just sitting with the discomfort of that guilt and allowing it to happen. And when we have uncomfortable feelings, our work is to acknowledge it and allow it to happen and not to push it away because it can be useful. It shows you that you have a heart and that you care about something. You just taught me personally so much in this 45 minutes. My favorite thing you said was our peace is so disturbed without boundaries. So I am going

Starting point is 01:01:32 to really focus on my boundaries when Michael starts talking about fucking QuickBooks at 730 AM instead of being irritated and responding, I'm just going to be a mute. Okay. So get ready for that. Nedra, thank you so much for coming on. You are so inspiring. You can come back anytime, but if you come back again, it has to be in person. Yes. Yes. Okay. Where can everyone find the book? The book is available every single place that books are sold, I think. And Instagram handle one more time? At Nedra Tawad. Perfect. We're going to link everything out anyway, the book,

Starting point is 01:02:15 Instagram, the website, everything. Thank you so much for coming on. This was so great. Thank you so much. Thank you. To win a copy of Nedra's book, all you have to do is tell us your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram at The Skinny Confidential. This is a book that everyone needs, let me tell you. And with that, we will see you next week for a fire episode.

The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Nedra Glover Tawwab On How To Set Boundaries & Find Peace, A Guide To Reclaiming Yourself

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