The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Ryan Holiday: Stillness Is The Key - How To Clear Your Mind & Find The Path To Everything

Episode Date: October 22, 2019

#223: On this episode we are joined by our friend and New York Times bestselling author Ryan Holiday. This is Ryan's second appearance on the show (he first appeared on episode #83) and on this weeks show we are discussing all of the concepts and ideas behind his new book, Stillness Is The Key. We dive into tactical steps you can take to clear your mind and quite literally find the path to everything.  To connect with Ryan Holiday click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by THRIVE MARKET. We use Thrive for our online grocery delivery on a weekly basis and we also now get our wine at Thrive! They provide the highest quality products and ingredients delivered straight to our door with unbeatable prices.  Be sure to grab our deal by going to to https://thrivemarket.com/skinny to receive 25% off your first order (Max $20) + free shipping and a 30 day trial. This episode is brought to you by Skillshare. Skillshare is an online learning space offering more than 25,000 courses. Join the millions of students already learning on Skillshare today with a special offer just for our listeners: Get two months of Skillshare for free. That’s right, Skillshare is offering The Skinny Confidential listeners two months of unlimited access to over 25,000 classes for free. To sign up, go to www.skillshare.com/TSC.  This episode is brought to you by JustFab Get your first JustFab style for as low as $10 as a VIP! That’s 75% off your first item with my special link. Just go to JustFab.com/skinny to take advantage of this deal now. You can also get FREE shipping on orders over $39 and there’s absolutely no commitment when you purchase your first order!  Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Netflix for learning skills online. So join the millions of students already learning on Skillshare today with a special offer just for our listeners. Get two months of Skillshare for free. That's right. Skillshare is offering the skinny confidential him and her listeners two months of unlimited access to over 25,000 classes for free. To sign up, go to Skillshare.com slash TSC. Again, go to Skillshare.com slash TSC to start your two months now. That's Skillshare.com slash TSC. you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. I'm not going to sit here and be on my email. I'm not going to try to squeeze another thing in. I'm not just going to sit on a couch and kill time. I'm going to put my body in motion, but I'm going to do it in a way that's designed to sort of slow things down and clear

the mind. I think what we're really trying to do with stillness is clear the mind. And meditation is one way to do that, but there's lots of other ways to do that. You could decide like, hey, I'm not going to have CNBC running on the television in my office all day while I'm at work. Well, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. That clip was from our guest of the show today, New York Times bestselling author, Ryan Holiday. Second appearance on the show. On this episode, we are talking all about stillness. What is stillness? We're about to get into it. Diving into his new book, Stillness is the Key. For those of you that are new to the show, my name is Michael Bostic. I am a serial entrepreneur

and brand builder, most recently the CEO of the Dear Media Podcast Network. And across from me, creator, founder of the Skinny Confidential, my wife, Lauren Everts. Very pregnant, full of sourdough, full of French toast. Lauren Everts Bostic on a good day. Sometimes it's just Lauren Everts. It depends if you're acting up or not. I'm Lauren Everts. I'm the creator of the Skinny Confidential, a blog, a brand, a podcast. And today we have a hot fire episode, an episode that I personally need to go back and consume like three times. I love Ryan Holiday. I'm such a fan of his work. Like Michael said, we've interviewed him before and I am always searching out his content on the podcast app.

So it's super fun to have him on here and just bring so much value to our life and to you guys' life. I think you're going to like this episode. Many of you guys are familiar with Ryan and his work. He's written so many amazing books. The Daily Stoic, The Obstacles, The Way, Ego is the Enemy, Trust Me, I'm Lying, Growth Hacker Marketing, and now his new book, Stillness is the Key. We're going to dive into it. And for those of you that are not familiar with Ryan,

you should be. But go ahead and go back and check out episode 83. We did about two years ago, a little further two years ago. It's October 10th, 2017. That was the first time we interviewed him more about his book, Obstacles Away and Ego. And he's incredible. I've literally read every single one of his books. Big fan. Lauren's read, I've literally read every single one of his books. Big fan. Lauren's read, I think you've pretty much read all his books as well. I've read almost all of them. How old is Ryan? Ryan is our age. Which is so nuts. Which is...

That is crazy. And he looks young too. He has two kids, beautiful wife. Shout out to Sam. And we're doing a question of the week, you guys. We still need a name for our question of the week. So if you have any ideas, drop into my Instagram DM box. So this is a question that I've seen all over social media. A lot of people have been asking Michael and I this, and I think this is the perfect episode to discuss. Michael doesn't even know what I'm about to say. But the question is, how do you guys use stoicism on a day-to-day basis? And I'll let you answer first. So I was introduced to stoicism through Ryan. I found his book, The Obstacle is the Way, during a time when I was trying to figure some shit out. And I just really connected with the

book. From there, I got introduced to Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, the Stoics, the philosophers. And I just fell in love with the idea of stoicism, primarily because for me, I've never been a very spiritual person. And so I've never really connected with religion. But this was a very practical, kind of logical way to jump into philosophy for me. And it just made a lot of sense. So I started diving into all of the books, Meditations and Letters from a Stoic and all those. And later, when Ryan's book, The Daily Stoic, came out, I bought a copy of it. I think it was in 2016 or 17 when it first came out. And what I do is I go in there and I read a page each day. And then kind of as a journaling practice, I write my thoughts

on that passage. I think everybody could do this and I've done it. You'll hear in this episode with Ryan, I've done it for the last four years and it just kind of helps set my morning and level set the day. And even if I miss a couple of days, I'll go back and read a few pages. And I, you know, I just love doing that because it's one thing to journal yourself, which I, which I do try to do as well, but it's another thing to read some great works and then think about how that can be applied to your own life and comment and write back on it. I started psoasism because I was watching Michael do it every single morning. Like he said, he's been doing it for the past four years and I would see him write in this book underneath a passage every day. And I'm a big fan in a relationship of doing things in front of someone and then

letting them come to their own conclusions. So that's what he kind of did to me. I guess you could say he manipulated me into it. So he bought me a book at the beginning of the year, The Daily Stoic, and I just started doing it every single morning. It takes two minutes of my day and it just reminds me to be a level-headed, forgiving, compassionate, empathetic person. And I think what it's done for me the most is it's helped me master my emotions. So I feel more in control over my reaction and I've realized that people can't make me react. I can only make myself react. So it's put a lot in perspective for me. And what I do is I read it. I underline a couple of things that stand out to me. It's like a paragraph, like we said. So it takes two minutes. And then underneath, I just write my thoughts and how I can apply the daily stoic message of the day to my own life.

Yeah. And the most interesting thing is, is I've now done this for three or four years. I have three or four books. And what's really interesting is to go back and read the same passages. And we talk about this on the show and see what I was thinking three years ago and what those passages meant to me three years ago to what they mean now. And that's why stoicism really is a timeless philosophy. The best philosophies are ones that have been around through thousands and thousands of years, and these philosophies have. So that leads us to our guest of the show today. Ryan is a bestselling author. He's written multiple books. Trust Me, I'm Lying, The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and now Stillness is the Key, among many others. If you're just new to his work, and this is my personal recommendation, I would start with Obstacle is the Way or Ego. You can

kind of do either or depending on where you are in your life. Ryan says these three books, Obstacle is the Way, Ego, and Stillness are all kind of meant to be a trilogy, but they don't need to be read in any order. I highly recommend all of them. They're all great, and they're immensely helpful to both Lauren and I. Guys, with that, Ryan Holiday, powerhouse on the show. Welcome, Ryan. Lauren, I am thriving. I'm thriving out here, guys. Thriving. And I'm thriving with ThriveMarket.com. Michael, did you know that I get all my dog's groceries delivered to our house? I did know that. Did you know, Lauren, that I get all of my snacks, supplies, supplements, pretty much everything from Thrive Market.

Okay, guys. So a lot of you have asked what we like to feed our dogs. And one of those things is organic pumpkin. And they have these canned organic pumpkins that I order for the dogs. They eat a little teaspoon every day, sometimes in the morning and night. Depends. It makes their food so much better. It's good for their brain.

It's good for their nails and their coat. And we get that all at Thrive Market. Now, there is a breakdown on my page. I have a page, a curated page, The Skinny Confidential. You can search it on Thrive Market. And it's going to show you all the things that I order every single month. There's all these delicious things like kettle corn. We had some the other night when we were watching the Breaking Bad movie. There's all the good candy

like Yum Earth. Michael's obsessed with the peach licorice. And then you have things like dates, dog pumpkin. Yes, Lauren, a date sounds pretty good right now. So are you guys one of those people that likes wasting money and time? If your answer is yes, I don't know what to do for you. But if your answer is no, what are you doing not shopping on Thrive Market? Every item is 25% to 50% below retail. They source all the best items, all the best products, and they deliver it straight to your door so you're not wasting time. We have been talking about this service for a long, long, long time.

And if you're one of those people that's being a little bit stubborn, not wanting to save time and money, I don't know what to do for you. For the rest of you, go to thrivemarket.com slash skinny for 25 to 50% off your first order and free shipping. That's thrivemarket.com slash skinny for 25 to 50% below retail and free shipping. And enjoy all of Lauren's favorites, all our curated favorites. Yeah, be sure you check out my page, guys. This is the Skinny Conf the skinny confidential him and her. Ryan Holiday back on the show. It's been a few years since we've done this 2017.

Is that when we did it? Yeah. Okay. I remember I was so excited because one huge fan of your work. How do you just mega author now? I mean, 10, how many books now? 10? I think this is nine. Jesus Christ. Okay. It's a lot. Anyway. So we came out to Austin. We did a whole episode. I think it was right around the time Ego came out. In his library, I might add. Your library, Michael went and copied all your bookshelves when we got home. The Billy bookcase from Ikea. Yes, the Billy bookcase. It's all over. Those are extremely cost-effective for anybody wanting to build a library. Yeah. Billy bookcase, Ikea, everybody. And then there's an extender you can get on the top yeah well because i had all these books stacked and it looked like shit everyone i was like now i have this you know thank god your man cape looks normal anyway man

welcome back i love that you wore the iron maiden t-shirt sidebar here i was always a metallica guy but i love iron maiden what's the connection with iron maiden i'm just a huge fan i think metallica is like more blue collar to me okay and then iron maiden's like a little bit more feels like artistic and like larger than life I mean the ones are sort of the British version and one's the American version I feel like I've never got to go to an Iron Maiden show and I need to go I love Iron Maiden I just was listening to Metallica they're on the tour right now although Metallica was and they just canceled it but back in rehab I think yeah this show's insane I mean they're like 65 or 70. They're still crushing it.

It was nuts. I give it- A perennial seller? Of course. I think what's interesting is like, so Metallica is a huge band. So like everyone knows Metallica is a big band because they've had like enormous songs. You wouldn't think Iron Maiden sold 100 million records. Wow. No, I mean, they're massive.

Yeah. I know that. That's wild. I don't know what it is. I think it's because I was introduced to Metallica. Wow. No, I mean, they're massive. Yeah, I know that. That's wild. I don't know what it is. I think it's because I was introduced to Metallica. It was like my first metal music when I was in the fifth or sixth grade. And so that's the one that stuck. And I didn't learn about Iron Maiden until like three or four years later. But I think it's like the first one you have the connection with. I was trying to illegally download a Metallica song off Audio Galaxy when I was in high school and I accidentally downloaded

an Iron Maiden song, and that's how it started. What was the song? Which one? I don't remember. I think it was How I'll Be Thy Name. Oh, that's a great song. Long song. Yes. All right. We could go on. See, we could get stuck on a metal tangent here for a long time. All right, Ryan, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. We're going to talk about your new book, Stillness is the Key. But before we do, one, like I said, Lauren and I are huge fans of work everyone should check out obstacles the way ego's enemy growth hack i mean perennial so we have all of them but one that we wanted to talk about with you don't forget the daily stoic that's what we want to talk about the daily stoic because both of us i first got the

daily stoic when you first came it was in 2016 that's when it came out yeah okay and i've done this practice almost every day since then i've bought four copies of the book now, three or four. And I read one page a day and I actually journal in the book and make some notes. It's just like a good way for me to reflect. And it's interesting to see how that perspective changes each year, like going back to what was going through my head in 2016. So now Lauren's done the same thing. So let's talk about the Daily Stoic a little bit. So I don't obviously journal in my own book. That'd be weird. But I have a journal version and I do this morning. I sat down and it has a question. And I think it's a very much sort of part of my like morning ritual is like, let me stop and think sort of big picture, big idea, meditate on some idea that challenges me or makes me better. And I think when we think of philosophy,

we think of sort of abstract or theoretical or we think of something you do in a classroom. The idea that it's this sort of daily practice, almost like prayer or like Bible study is not how we think about it, but that's really how it's supposed to be done. So I'm very bullish on the page a day format. I think daily stoics sort of tapped into that, but there's another daily read that I do every day that you might like called a calendar of wisdom that Tolstoy wrote. But there's another daily read that I do every day that you might like called A Calendar of Wisdom that Tolstoy wrote. And there's a bunch of the Stoics in it, Emerson's in it. And he thought it was his greatest work,

but it's like just a meditation, a sort of a spiritual meditation each day. So I very much agree that the process is very powerful. And I think it's the fact that you've done it for four years. Like, I think it's so interesting that you're doing it with the same book for four years, but it's really not that you've done it for four years. Like, I think it's so interesting that you're doing it with the same book for four years, but it's really not about the book anymore. It's the process of doing it that's where the value is.

Yes. What is your morning routine and ritual? Okay, so I have different ones, obviously, when I'm traveling or home. But this morning I got up at seven. I swam a mile at the athletic club and then I had breakfast. And while I was eating breakfast, I did the morning pages in the journal and then I read

for a little bit. And then ordinarily, if I was not sort of on a media tour, I would have immediately started writing. I had an interview this morning, but that's my routine. It's like I want quiet time, some sort of physical activity, and then I go straight into the work. Normally, like if I'm at home, I get up around the same time,

but I take my son, I've done this since he was, I don't know, maybe three months old. We go for a really long walk so my wife can catch up on sleep. And- Literally take a fucking hit from this, Michael. Yeah, it's the best. Keep, keep, keep-

There's a whole section about long walks. Get into this, please. So my son just like, doesn't let me put him down at night. Like I can put him to bed, but if he wakes up in the middle of the night, he refuses to let me do anything, which actually has worked out quite wonderfully for me because I sleep in one uninterrupted block, but I take him for a long walk in the morning. So we first started doing, because it was the only way to keep the house quiet enough for my wife to keep sleeping. So we just started and then we just, it's just wonderful just to go outside and be outside for an hour before you

do anything and for it to have like no purpose. So we live on a dirt road. So we sort of walk, although recently about six months ago, we got like a bike and a bike trailer. And so sometimes I just ride around, he sits in the trailer, but it's just his favorite part of the day. We just talk, he sings songs, we see animals, like we're just outside. And the thing I've added to this is that I don't bring my phone anymore. I don't use my phone as my alarm clock. And then I don't sleep with it in the room. And then I don't touch it for the first hour at least. So by the time I like get into the work, I'm in this like really pure creative space because, you know, I spent time with my kid. I put my thoughts in a journal. I've been outside. I've been active, but I don't

have any idea what's going on on social media. I don't have any idea what Donald Trump has said. You know, I don't know what the news is. Like no frustrating emails have come in. I'm just totally present. I feel dirty when I wake up and check my phone. I don't, I don't know. He's a little different than me. I keep trying to tell him how important it is not to wake up with the phone in the face. I hope you can take inspiration.

I gotta get better. But I just don't even want to look at it unless it's a podcast that I'm listening to. Sure. Or a book on tape. Like the only exception I'll make is like, okay, let's say I'm driving somewhere. I need directions.

Like there are things you can use your phone for that I don't think are a problem. But the problem is like this morning, cause I'm in a hotel, I had to use my phone as the alarm clock. So it goes off and I pick it up just to swipe the thing away. And it's like previewing these seven tech. I'm like, how can I not see this? Because I want to preserve a bubble is the right, the wrong word, but it's like, I'm in control of that space. And it's like, I don't want to start the day on my back foot, like where I'm already reacting to stuff. To me, that's really the place I want to get to. And then ideally, if I can write from there, that's where I'm going to do my best work.

How long are you writing when you write? Let's say if I started at nine, I'm done by noon at the latest. I think people think a lot of these creative professions are like, you hear like about some rapper, you know, I'm at the studio at two in the morning. It's like, I've worked with some rappers before. They rolled into the studio at like one. You know what I mean? Like it's typically in very short bursts. I want to know about the circumstances of working with a rapper.

So I was supposed to write a book for Birdman and Slim Williams from Cash Money. Okay. And so I spent some time with them in Florida and Atlanta and New Orleans. This is maybe like 2014, 2015, right before everything blew up. Everything went sideways. But no, it was really interesting. But yeah, like you think that you hear a writer and you hear all the hours they work. It's not consecutive hours. You don't like show up at nine and leave at five. It's short, creative bursts of what Cal Newport calls deep work. That's a great book. You know, I think actually that kind of goes for everybody. I mean,

even if you're in a traditional structure, it's like, are you really like sitting there for nine hours and pounding at work? No. No, you're mostly on Huffington Post and digging around on the computer, pretending that you're working. And yeah, I just don't want to do that. All right. We got a lot to unpack in this new book because there's a lot to unpack. And I think you've kind of already been touching on some of the themes and some of the practices that you have in there. So stillness is the key. Let's just start right off the bat. How would you define stillness to the audience, the people that have not read the book yet? Yeah, it's a hard word to define, but I think

it's this thing that we sort of intuitively know. Like when I say stillness, I think everyone has experienced moments where they've had it, where things are sort of slow, where you're present, where you're not doing anything, but the thing you're doing, maybe it's a moment with someone you love. Maybe it's a moment in nature. It's like you're accessing what life is supposed to be for like a very brief instant. And the premise of the book is like, we've all experienced these moments. You know, you were in the mountains and it was snowing, or you were sitting in front of a fire, or you were reading some amazing book or some flurry of inspiration at you. We know those are really powerful moments, but my question is like, why are they so rare? If that's where

your best work comes from, if that's when you're happy and when you're happiest, then why are we just content to sort of let them happen accidentally? That seems very strange. And so the book is sort of how do we intentionally think about this and how can we design life and habits and thoughts to encourage it so we're not just sort of reacting all the time. Was this an idea that you were stewing over for a while or was it something where you woke up and had an epiphany or was there an experience that happened that you were like, holy shit, I need to be more still? That's a good question. I mean, I think all of us feel like we need more stillness. We're just like, life is way too busy. I think like being a parent, you realize is like, you're not doing anything.

Like being a parent is like, I'm going to sit here and you're going to play for an hour. And like, I'm not supposed to be anywhere else. I'm not supposed to do anything else. Just this is it. And I think that was eye-opening to me that I was sort of thinking that life or success was like out here and it's actually like right here. I think that opened my eyes a little bit, but it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. And then it happens to be that stillness is one, you know, most of my books are influenced by stoicism and I've read so much

of the stoics that I just totally missed that stillness was even something they really talked about because that wasn't what I was trying to get out of them. What I was trying to get out of them was like, how do you overcome obstacles? How do you deal with the things you're out doing in the world? I just totally missed actually the underlying message was how do you get to a place where you don't need really anything, you know, like where you're not jerked around by the things that are happening. You're not driven by like urges or needs. You're not distracted by noises. You're just engaged fully in whatever you're doing. We're talking a lot about stillness, but let's talk about skillness. Skillshare.com,

one of my favorite sponsors. Lauren and I love this platform. Guys, we let's talk about skillness. Skillshare.com, one of my favorite sponsors. Lauren and I love this platform. Guys, we've been talking about it for a long time on this show. Skillshare. What is Skillshare? Skillshare is an online learning community with thousands of amazing classes covering dozens of creative and entrepreneurial skills. If you want to get on there and learn a new skill set, Photoshop, photography, editing. You want to learn how to do finance. You want to learn how to run numbers books. You want to get on there and learn a new skill set photoshop photography editing you want to learn how to do finance you want to learn how to run numbers books you want to learn how to edit videos they got something for you and it's all taught by people like you and me you want to learn how to podcast head over to skillshare they got courses just for you guys i'm telling you you

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months now. That's Skillshare.com slash TSC. Like I said, definitely look into the video graphics. They're great for distribution. All right, let's get back into the show. What I like about your work most of the time is that it's all very practical and it's applicable to your life. It's a logical approach. You can read any of your books, but okay, like that makes sense from a practical standpoint. I think that's very... Sure. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. But one thing about this with stillness is that you pointed out that most of the world religions and philosophies all agree that stillness is the key. Yeah, they each have their own word for it. And if you think about like Buddha or Jesus or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius, you think about sort of any of like the, unfortunately, they're all

guys. But if you think about like the guy for like each of, it's like pretty much the same guy. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, oh yeah, Jesus was all this energy and he was running around and then Buddha was more like this and then Seneca was more like this. It's like, no, like our idea of like what a sage is or a monk or a wise person, it's pretty much all the exact same thing.

It's like they have full possession of themselves. They have an intensity, but it's a slow, deep intensity. And I think that's something that we've sort of lost track of. And I really admire it. And so the book is sort of like, how do you kind of get there? What are pockets of your day that you practice stillness besides taking a walk with your son? Yeah, the walk is a big one. The journaling is a big one. Like when I write, a lot of times I write like in the dark, like I'll listen to the same song over and over again. What's the song? No, not the same song. Like I'll pick a song and then I listened to that song. It's about sort of getting into a place where everything is sort of just like the beginning and the end of the song have melded together.

Like it's just in a loop, you know, and I'm not like checking email. I'm not on the phone. There's no, you know, I'm not writing in a noisy coffee shop. So that's one. And then in the afternoons, I usually do some form of exercise. So like this morning, obviously I swam, but I'll run or swim. So some sort of exercises that paradoxically like movement, I think is a great way to get stillness. Like I've done CrossFit before and I like what it does physically, but I don't get any of the mental benefits. It's very chaotic in there. Yeah, it's chaotic. It raises your cortisol.

Yeah, and you're around other people. So it's not a solitary activity. So a lot of personalities in those CrossFits. Yeah, exactly. And you're kind of competing with other people. To me, I like the solitary aspect. So that's a big one. I'm trying to think what else.

I mean, you know, bedtime, you guys aspect. So that's a big one. I'm trying to think what else I mean, you know, bedtime, you guys will find like bedtime is a very, it's all about like the energy that you're bringing to it. And so like the sort of wind down of the evening is something that like, I know we do for the kids. But I really like when I'm traveling, I don't get it. And it totally messes with my system. I feel like you are so set with your routine when you're writing and stuff that when you have to go promote the book, it probably gives you some form of a little anxiety because it's chaotic.

I'm kind of the same way with that. I have like my set routines. And then when I have to go out into the world and do stuff, sometimes I have a little bit of anxiety. How do you combat that if you do have anxiety? Totally. And weird way it's chaotic but it's not chaotic the problem for me is what my calendar is right that it's like i woke up that this is like my worst nightmare like i don't like that you're like a packed calendar i want my calendar to look like that i think you said that on you don't you don't even want to look at my calendar yeah i don't i don't want

freak you out so to me i don't like it's that i like i have to come here and then we can't like just talk then i have to go to another thing and another thing that's what i really don't like but one of the things like the problem with that is for me and where it causes anxiety is that it's like okay so if i could just do that if i could just say like okay today is not mine i'm waking up at this time and I'm doing this through this, and I'm just going to go from thing to thing. And that's all that I have to do. I think I would be stiller and calmer and I could just go with the flow. But the problem is what I'm actually doing is like, okay, now I have 15 minutes in the car. I have to catch up on email

and then I have to make this phone call and then look at all these phone calls that I missed. And then I got to squeeze in writing time. So I think it's that I take the thing that I'm doing and then I'm adding in all my normal stuff on top of that thing. And that's where the anxiety comes from. So I have to kind of remind myself that like I signed up for this. I don't have to do anything. I could not do any of it. And, you know, if I'm a little late or this like rigidity that I'm projecting on it is usually the source of my anxiety. So I have to like relax and just try to go from thing to thing and not put like pressure on myself. Yeah. As long as it's not an everyday thing and you're like selecting pockets of time where it's just going to,

let's just say it's going to suck for a minute. As content creators and writers and artists and just being creative in general, our favorite part is to create the thing. And then you realize if you want to take it to the next level, you have to go out and distribute it and promote it. And sometimes that can give an artistic person anxiety. Totally. Yeah. You're like, I didn't get into this to become a salesman. And it's like, well, if you don't sell it, you don't get to keep doing it. And the thing I remind myself too, is it's like, what does it say about it that you don't sell it? You know, like if you just put it out in the world, I think you're saying like, it's not, you don't actually believe in it. That you're like afraid to tell people that you think they should buy it. You have to push yourself. Yeah, you do. You do. I think that's

a good indicator for anyone in any career path. If they're not out there promoting and happy to do it. I mean, listen, nobody wants to run around and do the circuit, but it's almost like, well, what are you really happy doing this thing? Are you proud of doing it? Should you be doing it? Like maybe do something else. Yeah. And I always, what I think about is like, when I flash forward six months from now, do I want to feel like I left anything on the table because I was either, I see this with people, they're like, oh, I don't want to do that. There's like an arrogance, like they think they're too good for it. Or, you know, do I want to go like, oh, but I was tired or I don't want to feel like I left anything on the table.

But if you can be present in the moment, whatever it is, even if it's a really hard, shitty thing, I think it's easier than if you're trying to do it and worry about the thing that you just did and you're stressing about the thing that you have coming up next. Now you're doing three things at once instead of one. You said that you gave this concept, and I don't know if it was the concept or the book or proposal to Robert Greene to read before you decided to fully commit to it. You said that on Rich Roll. Yeah, I guess I did.

So is Robert Greene someone that you go to all the time for advice? Do you always send your ideas to him? Do you guys work together on books? I know you guys have both been inspirations for each other. I mean, I think it's much more the other way around. Like he's been an inspiration to me. Like I saw him last night, we had dinner. And then after we had dinner with a mutual friend. And so afterwards, I realized that I much more the other way around. Like he's been an inspiration to me. Like I saw him last night, we had dinner. And then after we had dinner with a mutual friend.

And so afterwards I realized that I hadn't asked him about something. And like I have whatever the book that I want to do next out, it's being sort of negotiated. And so like I'll probably call Robert today and go like, okay, here's the offer. Like I always want to run things by him. One, because he gives really good advice and this is what he does. Like I have the unfair advantage of having access to one of like the most strategic people on the planet. It's an intimidating guy to talk to sometimes. What's this guy figuring out about me right now? Yeah. And so that's like obviously amazing. And then the other thing is like, he's

been in this business so long. So I think you don't just want to ask like, okay, you have this grandfather or grandmother gets really good advice. Like obviously you want to ask them, but you also want to talk to someone who knows how your business works. It's a proven success in the space. Yeah. And, and they, you know, I went through this on this project or think about this, or like maybe this dilemma you're having is actually a false dilemma. You can do both. And so, you know, I'm just very lucky to have access to someone. And like, I remember thinking when I was his research assistant, like, what is an hour of Robert Greene's time worth? And here this person is paying me to go

do things. And then every once in a while I get to ask them. So I always thought that like how I was getting paid working for Robert Greene was that I could occasionally ask him questions and then he would answer. Smart was smart. I mean, look what's happened. Yeah. I'm like, so in 2000, not that he can take all the credit. I mean, you obviously put in a ton of work. I mean, I think he could take most of it into in 2007 or 2009. I forget what it was. Someone approached me about writing a book about stoicism. So I was like, this is my dream. And I asked Robert and he was like, you can't do it. He was like, this is my dream. And I asked Robert and he was like, you can't do it. He's like, you're not ready. You like have to turn it down, which was very hard for, I don't know how old I was in 2000. I guess I was 20. I may have was 21, 22. But so it

was like, I thought that was my shot. And he was like, this is not your shot. Like if you take this shot, it won't be what you want it to be. And he was totally right. And so Trust Me Online came out maybe two years after that, which was definitely the right book to do first. And that set up. So let's say The Obstacles of the Way came out four or five years after that first conversation. It was a profoundly different and better book because of that advice. And if left to my own devices, I mean, why would I have said

no, right? It was only that someone had been there before and knew what was up. Out of all his books, which ones impacted you the most? That's a good question. One of the only downsides about working for Robert is that I don't get to experience the books the way that I used to. So it's like, you know, I read Mastery as a galley and then I, you know, I read Laws of Human Nature as a galley and sort of in different forms. And so those books are amazing. I love them. They haven't quite hit me the same way that it hit me when I, you know, bought his off the shelf at a bookstore and I didn't know who he was. So 40 Laws of Power is probably one of the biggest.

And then 33 Strategies of War was probably the other. Before we dive into that, let's talk about a blazer dress. That's right. A belted blazer dress. Okay. So just fab. It's been on the podcast multiple times. It's a leading fashion lifestyle brand that strives to inspire, guide, and motivate women from

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Yeah, no, I think in music, you experience it more. Like I was listening to the new Bruce Springsteen album and you're just like, how is this possible? How did you do it again? Because most bands are still making music, but it's not actually good. It's just like, even Iron Maiden, which I love, I'm not really super into the new stuff. But the new Bruce Springsteen album is like,

if you told me it came out like 30 years ago, you'd be like, yeah. I'd have to check it out. Yeah, but when you experience someone who can do that, you're just like, it's, it's unreal. Okay. So let's get back to stillness. Why is it so difficult for us to achieve stillness? If you could dumb it down, like why do we have such a difficult time? Well, I think the easy answer is like devices and media and all the things that are going on in the world. And that does explain a good chunk of why we are the way that we are.

But I opened the book, there's a quote from Blaise Pascal. He said, all of man's problems stem from his inability to sit quietly. I love that quote. Well, that quote's 500 years old, which is just insane if you think about it, right? That for at least 500 years, we've had this problem,

but really it's more like for all of time, we've had this problem. I think it's that when you're busy doing, you don't have to think about anything uncomfortable. You don't have to deal with your mortality. You don't have to deal with your fears. You don't have to deal with your worries. You don't have to deal with whatever shit you have from your childhood. You don't have to feel anything because you're just doing. But the problem is you're just deferring that. It's like you're putting it on a credit card and eventually it's going to come back and you're paying a super high interest rate on it. So I think one of the reasons we're not still is we're just really afraid of what we're going to

find out. We're going to find out, oh, I fucking hate my job or, oh, this relationship is actually terrible for me. Or, you know, why do I live in New York City? I hate this place. This is awful. I think we're afraid of what we're going to find out that's like sort of lurking just below the surface. That's probably one. It's almost like people facing their finances, logging into their checking account and saying, what's actually going on here? So they don't. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think the other part is that it's also work. It's easier to sort of take things on the surface level. The idea of like deciding to probe or deciding to actually think about what the person on the other side of the exchange is actually thinking. Right. To be like, oh, they don't you know, you want to go like this person's an asshole. How could they do this to me? You don't want to go like, well, do they do it on purpose or what were their motivations? Like it's more work to sort of stop and probe these things. So that's another reason we don't do them.

With the cell phone too, I feel like when we look to our cell phone, sometimes it's almost like a pain pill. Yes. I feel like a lot of people are doing that now. Yeah. I mean, look, I experienced it with work. So let's say I get into an argument with my wife or I'm frustrated with something that's in my house or like I'm frustrated with how things are going.

Sometimes I'll have found that I just I walked upstairs, I sat down and I just started working because I can't control whatever that is. I can't make it the way that I want it to be. But my work, I have complete control over. And so you can see that it's not that different than heroin or it's not that different than sex or any of the things that you do to make you feel not the way that you feel in that moment

and that you can get that sort of relief on demand. For someone that says, I don't know how to sit still, I don't even know where to start. Yeah. What would you recommend without overwhelming them? Like give us a little tiny tip. No, I mean, and that's something I thought a lot about with the book, because like when you hear stillness, you think, oh, this must be about meditation.

And like, it's not in the book at all. Very deliberately so. I don't meditate. It doesn't work for me. And I also sort of understand most people. It's like most people have spoken. They're like, I'm not going to do this. So I tried to think about what are other ways to get there.

And it's sort of the equivalent of like, it's like talking to a really, really fat person and going, let me tell you about the ins and outs of micronutrition. It's like, this is so far beyond what they need to make real sizable changes and impact in their life. So I think walks are a great one. Like just the idea of like, like I got here like a couple minutes early and I just went for a walk. Like I just walked around. It's like, I'm not going to sit here and be on my email.

I'm not going to try to squeeze another thing in. I'm not just going to sit on a couch and kill time. I'm going to put my body in motion, but I'm going to do it in a way that's designed to sort of slow things down and clear them. I think what we're really trying to do with stillness is clear the mind. And meditation is one way to do that. But there's lots of other ways to do that. You could decide like, hey, I'm not going to have CNBC running on a television in my office all day while I'm at work. Like your dad has the news. His dad has the news all day.

It's horrible for you. It's horrible. Dude, this guy. We slept over at his house the other night and I said to Michael, I said, I cannot do this. This is rising my cortisol. It's from the minute he wakes up to the minute he goes to bed.

Love you, Gary. He's flipping through all the channels, news constantly. It's too much. It's like in the background. I remember that this is like the way I think about it. Growing up, we had these friends and we'd go over to their house and they always had Fox News on their TV.

And do you remember TVs? Maybe it's still in the technology, but I remember if you pause the TV for too long, it would get burned into the TV. Yeah, I remember that, yeah. And so they always had Fox News on. And so when we would change the channel to like watch something else,

the cryon, that's like the lower third and then the logo that was permanently burned into the TV. Like you could see the outline of Fox News, even if you're watching like Comedy Central, right? And so I kind of think about when you're watching the news, there's that residue on your body. Like these are people who are deliberately trying to provoke you, who are giving you

what's mostly trivia, and they are giving you mostly information that you'll never actually use in your life. And so, like, let's start by looking at your media diet. I wanted to dive into this. You call it the CNN effect, right? Yes. It's in the book. Yeah.

It's a real psychological term and historical term. They talk about how hard it is to say, be president when you have to make really long term, big picture decisions, but it's being dissected and analyzed in real time on television. Right. So instead of, you know, it used to be they would make a decision and then like a month later, you'd find out how it went. Now it's like in real time, people are reacting to it. And this makes it increasingly hard for the president or any leader, whether it's CEO or any parent to think, you guys will see this with parents,

like these parents are making these decisions based on like this brand new study that just came out rather than thinking like, well, what strategies have parents always used, right? And so instead of, again, being present and instead of thinking about principles, they're thinking about like breaking news. And so they're always like, being present and instead of thinking about principles, they're thinking about breaking news. And so they're always worried about this or that.

This is a sidebar to that. But I mean, Lauren and I waited, well, Lauren primarily, waited five months to tell people that she was pregnant. And it's because, one, we wanted to have a moment. I mean, there's a million reasons. We've talked about it. But a lot of it is because right when she told people she was pregnant, it was like information overload. You should do this. You should be and it was like at some point you have to turn it all off because it becomes completely distracting to the positive her just like

having a healthy pregnancy for herself the best thing i did though is and it has to do with stillness is be still with the pregnancy we had five months to just yeah i was able to absorb it i was able to think about it and i also feel like that energy goes to the baby. Of course. Yeah. You don't need to turn like so many of the parents I know, it's like they turn their kid into like a business or a company that they have. And instead of being like, this is a human being, my job is mostly to not let them die

and to like, you know, mostly just make life pleasant for them for a reasonable period of time. How will you teach your kids stillness? I mean, we're trying to think about it now. Like, it's interesting. It's like if you watch, and he's a character in the book, but like you watch something like Mr. Rogers and then you compare Mr. Rogers to say like Blippi.

Have you guys watched Blippi yet? Oh man, just wait till you get to Blippi. Blippi's like the biggest thing on YouTube for kids. He is like, I don't know. He's like the new Mr. Rogers? No, he's like the opposite of Mr. Rogers. He's like a spaz. Like he's just crazy. And he drives tractors and trucks. The kids love it. But like the energy is just totally different than say a Mr. Rogers. So just thinking about like, what do you expose them to? What do you not expose them to? One of the things that we think about is like, okay, so your kid wakes up in the morning and you hear them on the baby monitor.

Your instinct is like, let me rush in and get them. It's like, actually, no, they need to learn how to be by themselves. And you're watching them. So it's not like they can hurt themselves. But like, how do you let them become a self-sufficient person who's okay being by themselves? That is such good advice. That is such good advice. Those helicopter parents

aren't going to like that. Michael, you don't need, you cannot be a ham. Keith, that is really good advice. Let them be independent. I agree. I mean, listen, I don't want to be running across the room.

If you guys like Daily Stoke, I have an email. I haven't turned it into a book yet, but I do one called Daily Dad. It's dailydad.com, but it's like sort of stoicism, but also just ancient wisdom inspired sort of parenting stuff. So I'm thinking about it all the time myself.

Like, I mean, I've only done it three years, so I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm trying to think about and study what other people have done. Have you guys decided what you're going to do about pictures? Like, are you going to share or not share? You obviously you're on the private Instagram. We decided not to do any photos. Here's the thing. I like what you did.

I think that's cool. No, I think that it's a part of my life and my profession is to be on social media. So, yes, the baby will be on social media, but I'm not going to turn it into what I lead with in my narrative. So it's not going to be posted on every other post. The baby doesn't need to be posted every single day. It's the character in my life, but it's also doesn't need to be posted every single day. It's the character in my life, but it's also, it doesn't need to be like

mommy blogger, mommy blogger, mommy blogger. If that makes sense. Here's the thing, we're not raising blanket like Michael Jackson. Like the kid, it might get seen.

It's not like, oh my God, got to hide the face. It's too much effort, but at the same time, we're not going to be just like blasting it out to the world. There's certain influencers,

which everyone needs to do them and do it how they want to do it. But that that just they like pivoted to being a mommy blogger the second they had a kid yeah i want to still lead with my beauty wellness you know hacks kind of thing and then like the baby is there but not the main the main event yeah and it's a it's weird too because like this is what you guys do so in a way i understand it's like this is our family so like they're almost harder to like to if it's like oh my god we gotta hide that it's too much but it's also like you're being compensated for it so like benefits the kid i find it to be a little more disconcerting when i see parents who are just doing it for like the raw naked validation from the other parents do you know what i mean like i mean? Like I've even seen like, like this sounds crappy

because my parents are great, but like I can tell that when they come visit, one of the things they're thinking about is the photo that they're going to get out of it. Do you know what I mean?

And that's what people do. And it's really kind of sad. Here come the messages, Ryan. Get ready, buckle in. Yeah, so they're not listening. But do you know what I mean? That like people are not actually, and to me, this is the opposite of stillness. They're not listening but do you know what i mean that like people are not actually and to me this is the opposite stillness they're not interested in the experience they're interested in letting other people know that they had the experience and that's like really sad

because you only get so many experiences do you know what i mean so hard to balance as a blogger that's something i have to actively practice. Well, what I think people also should understand, like I've been very vocal about this, like there's a time where there's content being put out. There's a much greater time when there's not content being put out. We're on dinner together. We're on vacation, like being private. I think people should understand that it's like, yes, there's certain things that show and certain things that are just like, listen to me and my wife just having a private alone moment. Normal people. This is going to sound wild, but I think someone who's done such a good job of this, and this is going to sound wild. So bear with me is Kylie Jenner. Okay. Because I think that one, she didn't tell anyone

she was pregnant for nine months because she just wanted to be pregnant and kept that a secret. And then if you go look at her Instagram, it's not baby, baby, baby, baby. She's still doing her 21 year old lip kit thing and the baby's here and there, but It's not baby, baby, baby, baby. It's still, she's still doing her 21 year old, you know, lip kit thing. And the baby's here and there, but it's not slapped everywhere. Right, sure. I know Kylie Jenner's,

that's like what you wouldn't expect. Yeah, sure. But here's, I think she could put her baby in every single picture. What goes to my point of- And get likes and comments and blah, blah, blah. And she doesn't. It goes to my point of them,

like choosing when they're actually putting content. I mean, people have to, I mean, even if you see someone's story and it takes up three minutes of the day, it's like, there's 24 hours in the day. Like they're choosing to show you three minutes of this day. That's a curated version of that. No. And like you're saying, it is a dilemma when it's what you're doing, but you're also being paid for it. So you're compensated. I think it's hard when you're watching like regular people going like the only person getting paid here is Facebook or Twitter. And like, I can tell it's like, oh, you weren't feeling good today. That's why you posted this photo, either of you. It's like, if you want to

do it yourself, again, you're a consenting adult. I just get grossed out thinking like, oh, you're using your baby as a prop, not even to make money, which is good for them. You're using the baby as a prop to validate yourself. And that if you start that, you're obviously doing it also in other worse ways. It also can probably be addictive too. Yes. Like the pregnancy, I told Michael this,

I said, people love pregnancy. I can see why people want to post like every second of it. What I think, you know, like one thing that, and this is probably always, I mean, it's always been people chasing, people chasing, but there's an example you use in your book with Kurt Vonnegut and I forget the, Joseph Heller, right? And they're in a billionaire's house and you could say this better, but maybe you could tell the story. They're in his house and they're basically talking like, wow, look at all this great stuff. And one of them says... Yeah, one of them says, how does it feel? Joseph Heller wrote Catch-22, which was one of the great novels of the 20th century. And he said,

Kurt Vonnegut said, how does it feel to know that this guy made more money this week than your novel will make in its whole lifetime? And Heller said, well, I have something he doesn't have. Vonnegut said, what could that possibly be? And he said, a sense of enough. And I've met billionaires and millionaires and people have sold millions of albums or have millions of social media followers or won Super Bowl rings. Like there's a profound difference when you meet someone who's good, like they're just like, I'm good. And then the person who needs, who even despite everything they've done, there's just never enough for them. Well, I think this is such an important theme to talk about, especially on this show with people that are, you know, you're following that person on social,

you're seeing this person sell a company, you're seeing whatever it is, and you're getting anxiety, you're like, I'm chasing this thing. You're comparing yourself to them and you don't realize that actually it really sucks to be them. And you haven't sat back and said like, is that something you'd actually really want? Is that a life you'd actually really want to live, even if it was an option? Yeah, that's totally right. And actually stepping back and realizing

that it's really sad, right? The success is not sad. The success is actually totally an unrelated part of this. There's a difference between needing to win a Super Bowl to make your dad proud of you and winning the Super Bowl because you like playing football and you've really dedicated yourself to being the best you can be this year. Those are fundamentally different places to come from and each one can create the same result. And so, yeah, the person who is like, if you've

read The Great Gatsby, he's trying to go back in time, and it's never going to happen. And it's like nobody can communicate to him that you, he goes, you can't go back in time. He says, of course you can. And so he was trying to chase this actually horrible woman who, you know, was using him. But like, that's what people are doing. They think like, if I just win another championship, like I have a million dollars, but if I had $10 million, if I had $100 million, I could have my own plane. And then I would be like, you know what I mean?

Like- The one I talk about all the time, we were talking about it this weekend on the flight, the if then, like there's a, we have people in our lives and listen, we've been guilty of it too. I've definitely been guilty of it. Saying like, if then, if when, then I will be X. They call it conditional happiness.

If these conditions are met, then I'm going to be happy. It's like, no, if you can't be happy now, you can never be happy, right? And obviously it's harder to be happy if you're starving or, you know, if you're being abused. So we're talking about first world enough, you know, like this is after you have a car and a place to live. Basic living. Yes. Yes. Yes.

We're talking about the person who, despite making $500,000 a year, feels poor because their boss makes a million dollars a year. Or the person having X followers and being unhappy because the person above them has X more followers. Yeah. Or they have X followers, but all they're thinking about is why this specific photo didn't get the likes that they wanted it to get. And what does that say about them as a person? We've seen scenarios like we have friends that they start these businesses and they're in the business are doing fine. They're doing great, but they're so unhappy in

the process. So unhappy buildings are like, well, it's not here yet. And when it gets here, then I'll be able to do this. And I'll be happy. I'm like, if you don't enjoy the process now, when you get there, you're going to feel the same exact way. It's just going to be a higher stakes and probably actually more obligations. When I try to talk to people about like, where are you actually trying to get? Not like a number, but like, what do you want your life to be? Right? Like, what do you like doing? How do you want your life to be? So for me, what I realize is like, as much as financial success is important, what's actually critical to my happiness is autonomy. So like when I'm not in control of like generally how my life is,

I'm doing things I don't want to do. That's when I'm unhappy, even if I'm being paid a lot of money for that. And obviously there's a balance, but what I realized is it's like, oh, so if you told me, hey, Ryan, if you started this company, it would take seven years. And then at the end of the company, you'd have $100 million. That would be very tempting. But what I would try to remind myself is that I'd have to spend seven years doing shit that I don't want to do. Like I was talking to a friend of mine who was an author and he started a venture capital fund and they raised a lot of money. And I was walking them through. I was like, okay, so if this works, so you're not gonna be able to write for a long time. If this works, let's say you walk away with $20 million at the end of this, which would be extreme success,

right? What would you do? And he basically like described some version of like being an author again. And I was like, what? You know, like, so it's like, what would you do if money wasn't an issue? And oftentimes it's much closer to what you're currently doing than you want to admit. But we go, oh, but like, I need that ceaseless desire to help me get over that hump. And the problem is you get over the hump and then you're the same fucking person and didn't do what you thought it was going to do. What would you say to someone that's listening, that's constantly playing the comparison game on social media? Like where would you tell them to start maybe tactics or habits that they could add to their routine that would help? So one is I just tell myself

everyone's a liar. Like I just say everyone's lying. You know, it's like, oh, you see someone on a private jet. I just go, they rented this just for the photos, you know, or that this is five years old, this photo. Or they Google imaged it like Bow Wow. Exactly, exactly. Or so like when I hear someone- Poor Bow Wow. When I hear someone go like, oh, they got a book deal for X.

I go, you know, you can lie with these things. So it's like maybe 50% of it's guaranteed, but the rest of it's earnouts and they're never going to do that. So it's actually like- Same thing with companies when they sell. Yeah, right. Yeah, someone, oh, did you hear they sold their company for $20 million? It's like, actually they sold it for like $100,000 and $19,900,000 in worthless stock that they never,

but, you know, so I just go like, I just assume everything's exaggerated and lied and lying, not to be cynical, but just so to like cancel it out. Because the truth is it doesn't affect me. I'm just telling myself that it matters. So that's one strategy that I use. The other thing is like on social media, what I always remind myself is I go like, look at your feed and then you know how unrepresentative this is of your actual life. But the problem is then you compare your actual life to other people's fake life, and then you feel insecure. If you were comparing their actual life to your actual life, you'd probably feel much better. That is such good advice.

Yeah. That is such good advice. You know, there's one thing that, and I had to go through my own struggle with this a while back, because I had to have a whole life crisis and figure out, you know, I was motivated by the wrong things. We talked about this a while ago. But anyways, the thing that I found interesting was I got to a place where I'm like, okay, what do I actually want? I was like, I want a place where I have autonomy. I can live with my wife, travel when we need to

once in a while, spend time together, read a shit ton of books, like not be, like it's very, actually very simple what I actually want. But what I had to balance that against was, okay, if I do have enough, how do I also stay motivated to go and build and accomplish things? And I think that that's an interesting balance once you get to the place like, okay, I'm actually happy and I have enough, but I still like, just as a human being want to be pushed and struggle and accomplish different things. Like how would you coach someone to say, I mean, you know what I'm saying here? Like how do you still find motivation when you realize, okay, maybe I do have enough, but I still want to get shit done. Yeah. I mean, I, like when I, I wanted to be a writer.

And so I thought that meant you have a book, right? But then as soon as the book came out, it's like, actually, no, it's only success if it's a bestseller. And then it's like, but what am I going to do next? And how can I make sure that next deal is bigger? So you're, you're like next, next, next, and this is preventing you from enjoying any of it. And so like, clearly that has helped me do a lot, but it's also is preventing you from enjoying any of it. And so clearly that has helped

me do a lot, but it's also prevented me from enjoying a lot of it. And so what I try to remind myself is, okay, the motivation, that's what motivated the deals. But the actual work, the thing that actually made any of those books worth reading or valuable was the opposite of that attitude. That was me quietly sitting down, doing the work, loving the process, being present. And so I have to remind myself that the motivation is like a tiny fraction of what matters. What actually matters is what you deliver. So I think we over, like, we'll go like, oh, this person's really angry. Look at how successful they are. Is their anger the reason they're successful? Or is it that they're really tall, you know,

and that's why they're good at basketball or whatever, right? Like, is Kanye West ego-wise a great rapper? Or is it his, like, fascination and love of music and creativity and passion that's so profoundly unique that it compensates for the ego that's always getting them in trouble. As a millennial listener, there's a lot of millennial listeners. Where would you tell them to start which book out of all your books? Oh, my books? That's a good question. Probably ego. I think ego is the enemy. I told you that he'd say that. Yeah. Well, I think that one's a super soul.

Just to stroke my ego, I told you. But if you're someone that's maybe struggling right now, I actually think Obstacle is a good one. Probably. That's one at first, because I was going through some shit and I was like, oh, and then I connected with that book. I love Ego. Yeah. It's a, so the way I see it as a trilogy, but not a chronological one. So it's like three books that are interrelated and have similar inspirations, but you can come at it from any angle. Okay. All right. I like it. You have a few recurring characters in the book. One of them is Tiger Woods. Yes. And one of them is Mr. Rogers. And I don't think you could correlate

two more different people. And then Joseph Kennedy is a recurring character. And so is Anne Frank. I think those are the recurring characters. Yes. Yes. What got you interested in focusing on those people, specifically Mr. Rogers and Tiger Woods? So I started writing this book in like early 2017, maybe late 2016. So this was like right before the Mr. Rogers resurgent. I remember Mr. Rogers growing up, but I don't remember thinking that much about him. And then I read like an article or saw a video and then I started really digging in and I read some books by some friends of his about him. And I was like, holy shit, this guy's like a saint. Like, is this a real person? And then I found out, then it was announced like Tom Hanks was playing him in a movie. And then there was a documentary and then there's a book. So it feels a little bit less of like a discovery,

but this is again, a reason why you can't be that concerned with results. Like I thought I was going to be first, but I wasn't. But what the real value was that I just learned a lot about this person and I got something out of it. Right. So he was just a fascinating person. And again, like I love the energy and I love like where he seemed to be coming from. And one of the things I learned from Robert Greene that I think I've done better in the, in ego and obstacle and less good and, or sorry, in ego and stillness, less good and obstacle is really the key of having pro and con examples. It's easy just to find things that confirm what you're saying. It's harder to find people who sort of prove the opposite of what you're saying. And it's a powerful way for readers to learn. So

Tiger Woods is in there mostly as an example of like how not to be. And I find those to be the most challenging to research and write about. All right. Last thing I want to jump into, because I got in some hot water about this the other day and I figured like you're a better person to, you're going to say this more eloquently than- He wrote an article on it. Yeah, I know. That's why I want to talk about it. So I was talking the other day on the podcast and saying basically i don't want people to just cold outreach and say let's go to coffee pick my brain yes please yes because and and the main reason that the main thing i was trying to point out is that the people asking me to refine the way they're approaching people because it's it's just straight up a bad strategy to cold hour say can i

get coffee and pick your brain and then i went into this whole thing about like the value of an actual cup of coffee and the value of someone's experience. But this goes into a topic that you wrote about in your book about saying no. Let's talk about it a little bit because I think that there's a more eloquent way that I can really dissect it though, because I feel like, and what it costs you to say yes. And I think that's been, that was like the core of your article that you wrote. We've had a lot of messages about this so okay and so people thought what you're being like arrogant some people were like love this message some people like you're arrogant some

people saying okay well like do you not like you know if you're further along the path don't you want to take time and my point was listen i take time all the time with people i do this show every week i sit down with people sure the main thing was like if your strategy is to cold outreach to someone say can i pick your brain over coffee? One, you're going to get a lot of no's. And two, it's just not an even transaction. Like a better way is like, what kind of value can you provide? What's a unique angle?

And then like, are you being lazy? Yeah. Now people like, you just even think about what that expression, pick your brain. It's like, can I steal something from you? Yes. And you're stealing the one thing that people can't get back, which is time. Yeah. I say no to almost everything. I've had to even realize that even saying no is an imposition.

And so a lot of stuff I just ignore. I mean, this is a wonderful, privileged place to be, not a place I would have ever anticipated being. But it's true. If I even sent a polite no to everyone that wanted to get coffee or wanted me to be on their podcast or wanted me to be on their podcast or wanted me to blurb their book or whatever. I never have any time to do what you need to do. Yeah, not even what I need to do, but like what I wanted to, you know, like there's this great essay,

I forget who wrote it, but the title is like, no one wants to read your shit. And it's like about screenwriters who email other screenwriters and they're like, here's all the things I have to read for me. Here's all the things I have to read for my friends. And then here's all the things that random people on the internet want me to read. Like, it's just, it doesn't work. The other version of this I see, and it's how I got started, but they're missing how it actually works. They're saying, can I work for you guys for free? And as nice as that is, they're not even thinking that there's a cost. They're thinking I'm offering to work for them for free. And as nice as that is, they're not even thinking that there's a cost. They're thinking I'm offering to work for them for free. They're not thinking, first off, it's not like

you guys have a bunch of things that you need done that you can't afford to pay someone to do. Right. That's like. Especially now with all the stuff we have, Postmates, you know, Uber, there's a million things, a million services, TaskRabbit. But your business is successful. You don't, if there was an ROI on a task, you would just pay someone to do it. And if not, you would just not do it. So if they think that it's fulfilling a need, which it's really not, and they're not thinking that even finding something for this totally unproven, unknown person to do, and then trusting them with access and with your time is incredibly expensive. So what you

need to do is figure out a skill or a thing you can do for people and offer to do that thing. Yes. And so like, for instance, I get people go like, I noticed this error in your book, blah, blah, blah. And then they'll offer to like proofread articles from me or something. This actually usually makes me angry because I already pay someone to proofread them and which means that they missed it. But like that is a much better ask. Or, you know, if someone said like,

hey, I love your podcast, but I noticed you're using a sample for your intro music. I'm a really great musician. Could I write you a new theme, whatever? And you'd be like, well, at least look at that. And then people don't realize that these relationships ensue over time. And then it's usually begins with a demonstration of value. So it's not, hey, can I have an hour of your time to get coffee? Like the list of the people that I

want to have coffee with is already very long. I'm not even doing that. And by the way, I haven't seen my dad in a month. You know what I mean? Like, why am I getting coffee with some random person when I haven't seen my dad? Let me point something else out though too. It just comes down to self awareness. Even when we had you on the show and listen, the show's grown and it's great. It was episode 83. I'm looking at my notes right now and the reason I'm telling

you this is I was like, okay, eventually I knew we wanted to get guys like you and Robert and some of the people we've had on the show but it's like, okay, let's put in the work first. Let's make sure there's a dedicated audience. I's share. We got, I mean, 83 episodes before we sat down with you the first time. And the reason being is I want to make sure, okay, like we read these books, we had a platform for them. Like we put in the time, like even things like that. If you're doing a podcast, you're creating content and you want to reach out.

I mean, listen, I'm going to go sit down with Warren Buffett. I got a lot of work until I can do that. But the point is, is like, it comes from all angles. Like there's certain people that I eventually would, and Lauren too, would love to get on this show, but it's like, put in the work, dedicate the time to be able to build it so that when you do make that ask, there's a real benefit to that person to say yes, as opposed to just like, Hey, can you call it? It's like, yeah. Let's get rid of, can I pick your brain too? I feel like we got to get more creative with that. Yeah, no, no. And the funny thing that I always think about is like, I'll get an email and they'll be like, hey, like, I really like your stuff, blah, blah. Can I ask you a question? And it's like, you just asked me a question. You would

have been better off skipping all of this and just sending me an unsolicited email and saying like, hey, what's a book I should read about X? And it would take me five seconds to respond to this. And then you could reply having read the book with a question of like, it's like walking up to a pretty stranger and saying like, hey, do you want to get married? Like what? Like you're so far, you're putting the cart so far before the horse. It's like, it's creepy. You should, you should be saying like, hello, you know, like to start with that, like all the research assistants that I've had, it's a relationship that's evolved over time. They asked me a question, they saw this, they noticed something. People are getting lazy. You know, he was like, well, people, my,

my coach says seek mentors. It's like, yes, that is good advice to seek mentors. But the strategy you have behind actually finding those mentors and getting them to say, yes, I do want to mentor you is something that people should really examine a little bit closer. Well, how you got a mentor with Robert Green is a perfect example of how you added value. Yeah. And I, by the way, was working for a lower, like a different author who is lower in the author hierarchy. And that was my in to Robert. And so that's the other thing. It's like, people are like, Hey, Warren Buffett, can I be your apprentice? And he's like, what? Like, you know, like, uh, it didn't work for me. Yeah. And so it's like, no, you got to reach out to a local stockbroker who's like friends with your parents. So, you know, like you have to start so far low on the chain and you move your way up. Exactly. Last

thing I want to talk to you about. I thought I was a voracious reader until I saw how much you read. Then I felt bad about myself. It was like, I was a unicorn person, of course, but still, okay. There's a lot of people that write into this show and they talk about reading and they want book recommendations and Lauren and I love to read. They say, well, I don't have time to read. Last two cents on finding time to read, because I think people should hear this from your mouth. Well, look, I have an advantage in that I am paid to read books. And if I don't read books, I can't write books. So it's different. Like people go, how can I read it? It's like, how does this baseball player spend so much time at batting practice? It's like his whole life is designed to make that the main thing. So that's a little different.

I have like a couple of things. So one, I decide that it's really important and that I take it as self-evident that there's an ROI to reading. This isn't like a thing I do for fun. This is an investment in myself and in my education. So that's one thing. That applies to everybody though. Yeah, of course. Yeah. No, definitely. Definitely. But you have to decide that I'm not reading because smart people said I should read. I'm reading because I get something out of books that I read. That's a really important part. One of the things that I do is I'm more of like a binge reader than a regular reader. So yeah, I read the Calendar of Wisdom every day.

I do try to read all the time. Like I read, you know, 300 pages of this book on my flight from LA to New York or New York to LA yesterday. Is that about MacArthur? Yes. It's very good. But the point is like, I don't watch movies on airplanes. You know, I read books or when I'm sitting in a car, I'm reading a book or, you know, you're listening to audio books during your commute.

How can you find dead time that you can turn into reading time? I think that's a, that's a big one. You're just not sitting around sucking on your tooth. You're actually, you know. Is that an expression? That's what I always joke around. You know, you see those people on the plane. These people are up i'm sorry like they're just staring they're just staring at the scene what do you what do you do i mean listen unless you're in a four-hour meditation okay fine is is stillness or is reading stillness it can be okay i think it can be it depends i mean i think it depends but for me it's a meditative quiet experience that's sort of transporting me to another world.

So, yeah. Suck on your tooth is a good saying, huh? Yeah, I've never heard that before. But yeah, I just make it a priority. And then the other thing is like, I collect books. Like when I see a book and it looks good, I buy it. Like that goes to the ROI point. Like people go like, I'm thinking about buying your book. And it's like, I've never thought about buying a book.

Like I buy the book. If I think it's good, I buy it. I've spent a lot of money on it. At one point I was spending all my money on it, but that's how I got where I got. You did okay. Yeah, it worked out. Like people go, maybe I'll buy that

when it comes out on paperback. I'm not gonna wait 18 months to save $3 on a book that could change my life. You gotta decide this is important. And, and, you know, we talked about watching the news. It's like, decide you're going to watch less news and you're not going to be caught up with the newest Netflix show, but you're going to, you're going to read. Book, podcast, or resource that you would recommend to our audience that you consume? Oh, okay. That I consume. So I really like Tyler Cowen. His podcast is amazing. It's

a little nerdy, but it's very good. What is it called? Tyler Cowen? I think it's called Conversations with Tyler. Okay. I like his a lot. I like Rich Roll a lot. Let me see what else I got on my phone. Feel free to go through your phone and tell us specifics. His book right now on the table is called American Caesar, which Michael is already ordering in his brain right now. I know him so well. I like Josh Peck's podcast. I like Finding Mastery with Michael Gervais. Oh, he's good. Yeah, Michael's been on the show.

Yeah, I like Art of Manliness. I like Dr. Drew. Lance Armstrong's podcast is very good. You know, Dr. Drew came on here and said really nice things about you. Did he? Yeah. Oh, he's the best.

He's a cool guy. Brian Koppelman's is good. Did you listen to the Neil Strauss one to Live and Die in LA? I have not. Oh my God, it's fucking unreal. It's the best. He's a cool guy. Brian Koppelman's is good. Did you listen to the Neil Strauss one to live and die in LA? I have not. Oh my God. It's fucking unreal. It's so good.

You know what? I got to listen to more podcasts, but maybe you're like this because I'm so in the world now. I find myself before I got so inundated in the podcast world, I'm like managing all these shows, but now that I'm in it, I'm not. Yeah,

but you got to set time aside. Like he said, he, his job is to read. You got to listen to podcasts. I like Mark Maron and then I like Pete Holmes. Those are podcasts that I like. Trying to think what else.

Books. Oh, books. It's Calendar of Wisdom. That would be a big one. Okay. Daily Dad. I'll give a plug to Daily Dad again. Check that out.

Don't you have an email newsletter that recommends books? Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, I might say I recommend books once a month. But I mostly read physical books. I don't really do audible and I don't do eBooks. I want to have like physical books that I can own and write in and use. And I have to give a shout out to the Daily Stoic because not only do you have the book, you have a newsletter that you do. I love the email. You get the email. So if you don't have time to do your stoicism in the morning, you get the email and it's just a little dose of it.

Yeah. So like the book's been out almost four years. This is, I've basically written four additional free books because I write the email every day. So there's just like hundreds of thousands of words of free content that have gone out. So I like that. Yeah.

Pimp yourself out. Tell us where everyone can find your book. Yeah. So stillness is the key should be everywhere. Books are sold. I'm at Ryan Holiday. the key should be everywhere. Books are sold. I'm at Ryan Holiday. I'm pretty much everywhere. And then at Daily Stoic is also pretty much everywhere. And there's a podcast version of Daily Stoic also. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. That's

what I was saying. Listen to that. Yeah. Wait, hold on that you host. No, no. I just read the email every day. So you can just listen to the email. It's like two minutes. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's cool. Yeah. I didn't want to do an interview because this goes to what we're talking about earlier. I want to go like, what do I want to spend my time doing? What's like the main thing for me? And so I've just talked to a lot of writers who are like, I don't have time to write anymore because I'm doing a podcast. I didn't want that. But it takes me, you know, five minutes to read the email. So I read them and then it's all batched and just happens.

But I think one of the things you have to realize as a content creator is not everyone consumes in your preferred medium. So like I love hardcover books, but 30% of the sales are on Audible. You know, like I love reading articles, but some people like podcasts. So you've got to be willing to meet people where they are. And I imagine with your, it's like you built it most on Instagram, but Hey, now TikTok is big and now you got to do this. And that's just like, you can't be precious about where you do your work. Totally. And I also think that's really genius that you're doing the podcast. Cause it also

saves people time. They're on the go. They maybe just want to listen to a little dose every day. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show at Ryan Holiday on Instagram, guys. Come back anytime. I'm sure your next book will be out soon. He's already planning it. Come back anytime. Thank you. Guys, wait, don't go.

To win a copy of Ryan Holiday's book, Stillness is the Key. All you have to do is tell us your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram at The Skinny Confidential. And then, of course, we're doing the question of the week every single week. So make sure you're asking your questions. You can ask them in the comment section on at the skinny confidential or in the secret Facebook group, or even in the podcast DM. So ask your questions and we'll feature your Instagram handle and your question on the beginning of a podcast episode, which is super fun. And with that, get excited because we have a bonus episode coming this week. Okay? So tune in on

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