The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - The Dating Expert Logan Ury: Modern Dating Mistakes, Why We’re Addicted To F*ck Boys, Why We Stay Single, & How To Find Love

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

#783: Join us as we sit down with Logan Ury – a Harvard-trained behavioral scientist turned dating coach. As the Director of Relationship Science at Hinge, Logan leads a research team dedicated to people finding love! In this episode, Logan unpacks the realities of modern dating, explores how attachment styles can influence your search for love, emphasizes the importance of prioritizing meaningful connections over superficial traits, addresses society's addiction with "F*ck Boys," & and shares tips from her book, How to Not Die Alone!   To connect with Logan Ury click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM   To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697)   This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential   Head to the HIM & HER Show ShopMy page HERE to find all of Michael and Lauryn’s favorite products mentioned on their latest episodes.   Visit loganury.com to take Logan’s dating quiz, learn about online coaching, & purchase her book “How to Not Die Alone”.   This episode is sponsored by Cymbiotika   Head over to Cymbiotika.com right now for 25% off + Free Shipping sitewide.   This episode is sponsored by Just Thrive   If you’re ready to take control and live your healthiest life yet, you can get 20% off your first 90-day bottle of Just Calm & Just Thrive Probiotic today – Visit JustThriveHealth.com and use promo code SKINNY.   This episode is sponsored by Branch Basics    Save 15% on your Starter Kit or their new Hand Soap when you use code SKINNY at branchbasics.com.   This episode is sponsored by Taylor Farms   Taylor Farms Chopped Salad Kits are available at all major grocery stores.   This episode is sponsored by Prolon   Go to ProlonLife.com/SKINNY for 15% off Prolon’s 5-day nutrition program.   This episode is sponsored by LMNT   Get your free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/SKINNY.   Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

I have people, often female friends, who are like, this guy needs to go to therapy and I don't want to be his therapist. He seems to have nobody to talk to except me. I'm not going to catch him up. And so I think if both people in the relationship can be somebody who really knows themselves, they're self-aware, they know what they want, they can have a conversation that says, are we heading in the same direction? Do we have the same values? And so I think the only way to move forward is for both people to put on the table what they're like and what they want and see, are we a match? Instead, when people play games or people feel like they can't be themselves, it's really hard to see, is this going to work or not? Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. Today, we have Logan Urie on the podcast to talk all things

dating, why we're addicted to toxic relationships, how to stay in a meaningful relationship, how to find partners, how to use dating apps, how to find love, all of the things that go into dating. So who is Logan Urie? She is a Harvard-trained behavioral scientist turned dating coach. She is also the director of relationship science at Hinge, which I'm sure many of you have used and are aware of. Logan also leads a research team dedicated to people finding love. In this episode, we unpack all sorts of realities when it comes to modern dating. We also talk about how important it is to emphasize prioritizing meaningful connections over superficial traits, and we share tips on how to not die alone. With that, Logan Urie, welcome to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show.

This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. What are people doing wrong when it comes to dating? People are doing a lot wrong when it comes to dating. The first thing is that people often think I know what I want, but they're wrong. And so we're often wrong about who will make us happier long-term. And so I talk to these clients who are like, I know exactly what I want in a partner. I just need your help finding this person. I want a five foot six skinny redhead. And I'm like, how many five foot six skinny redheads have you dated? And they're like, well, kind of a lot. I'm like, maybe the answer

isn't another five foot six skinny redhead. It's actually being open to dating different kinds of people. And so when people really date like a scientist and question their assumptions, that's when they create new patterns and find love. Don't you also think that saying I want a five six redhead is a little is maybe not what you want to be leading with. Meaning like, don't you think there's a hundred other qualities that you would lead with before that? Yes. I think when people are working with me as a paid dating coach, they feel like they can be unfiltered and I want them to be unfiltered, but that's what they're telling me they think really matters. And so not only am I saying that's not what matters, but I'm also saying,

I think you should be open to the person that you wind up with coming in a different physical package than you expected because you've been doing things your way for a long time. It's not working. You're now paying me a lot of money to tell you to date differently. And so it's time to make a change. There's a lot of friends that I have that also get very stuck in their ways and the older they get, the worse it gets. How do you coach someone that is just not wanting to sort of make any sacrifice? Yeah, the problem that you're talking about, and I definitely do want to talk about your friends today and how I can help them, is that as people get older, you would actually want them to become more flexible because there's a feeling of, well, the pool is smaller.

You have more baggage. You're getting older. But instead, it's I've become more rigid in my ways. And so people say things to me like, Logan, I'm 38. I've waited this long. He better be perfect. And I'm like, no, you've been waiting a long time. Actually, can we get rid of some of your deal breakers?

Can we expand your parameters? And so what you described is actually a really big problem with people that I date with. And so one thing that I find is that when you're younger, dating in your 20s, dating is like a startup. It's two people coming together to form a company. When you are dating later in life, it's more like a merger, two separate entities that you're trying to squish together. But mergers are notoriously hard. Each one has its own CEO, its own HR department, its own accounting practice.

And so when you have that merger, it's difficult to have a successful outcome. And that's sometimes what happens with older daters is that they're stuck in their ways and they're not willing to compromise. Yeah, obviously we were talking before we started. We're married and have been together for a long time. And I think sometimes when we go into the realm of dating, people say maybe, oh, it's like easy for you to say, or not as relatable because we've been together so long. But on the flip side, we have a lot of single friends. And I think one thing we feel confident talking about is what it takes to kind of stay in a healthy long-term relationship because we've had to do it for so

long. But I listened to some of these, in my case, a lot of my guy friends talk, and it's this laundry list of particulars that a person needs to check in order for them to make it. And I said, well, what I've realized in a relationship is there's so many kind of compromises and changes that take place individually. If I were to think of ours and I said, I need all of these things checked, I'm basically giving myself 20 different reasons to leave something. Right. And so my long question is when people come with this laundry list and it's like one of the boxes isn't checked and they're so quick to get rid of that person that are discard that person as a partner. How do you kind of teach someone to kind of get out of that mindset? Yeah. So I have a really specific tactic I use for that and it's called the post-date aid. So when people go on

dates, they're often in their head thinking about, here's my checklist. Do you check the boxes? And that's really about things like, are you tall enough? Are you good looking enough? Do you have a good enough job? Are you good enough for me? And they're really evaluating the person. And instead I want people to make a shift towards the experiential mindset, really being in your body, being in the moment, and thinking about what side of me do you bring out? So the post-date eight are eight questions that you ask after the date that help you focus during the date on the things that matter. So did they make me laugh? Did they make me feel desired? Did we have a good time together? And it really shifts your mind because if you know you have to answer those questions

at the end of the date, then during the date, you're going to focus on things like what's our dynamic, not just who are you on paper. I also, if I were dating right now, like say like Michael never existed and I were dating right now, one of the things for me would be like intuitively how does it I know this is kind of weird but make me feel energetically like is the energy right yeah because that's a big one that's exactly what I'm talking about and this is something that I've worked on in my life I'm not dating right now I'm married but let's say a few years ago I was interviewing at different companies and one company gave me a better offer.

But when I went to their offices, the offices were really dark. People would close the door right in front of you. Nobody was hosting you. And at the other company, people held doors open for you. They really hosted you and made you feel at home. And I was like, I'd rather take this job because of how I feel in this office with these people. And I think that when it comes to things that can be easily measured, things like height, things like weight, things like how much money somebody makes, then we think, oh, that must be really what matters. But the things that are intangible, like how somebody makes you feel, the energy you have together, that's so much more important. That's what it's going to be like to be in a relationship with

that person. Well, don't you feel like if you're looking if you have this laundry list of checklists you're kind of in the date looking for someone to to fall out of that checklist so you're you're looking for the negative which honestly maybe is also an energy blocker right i know that sounds kind of strange but if i'm look if you and i are going on a date and i'm just looking for all the wrong things as opposed to the right thing. Yeah. So there's actually something called the negativity bias, which is the fact that it's much easier for our brains to hold on to negative information and to positive information. So I'm sure you've seen this on your videos or for your podcasts where if people write all these nice comments, it kind of goes in and out. But if anybody criticizes you, it can kind of stick

with you. And this really goes back anthropologically because if you had five ex-girlfriends and one of them wanted to kill you, it was important to remember which one that was. And so we really do stick to these negative things. And so my tactic for that is that in my book and in my coaching, I tell people to email me five, the number five good things at loganyuri.com. And so I say, when you go on your next date, I want you to find five things that you liked about the person and then send them to me. And it's the same idea as the post-date eight. If you're looking for this on your date, it will help you override the negativity bias and actually look for, well, they have a beautiful smile. They

really lit up when they talked about their family. You're going to notice the negatives, but how can you shift your brain to focus on the positives? I had a friend that was like, I met this girl, Lauren. She's so great. She's so fun. She's so funny. But I cannot with those eyebrows.

I cannot live with those eyebrows for the rest of my life. And I was like, come, I mean, I know. First of all, we can change eyebrows. Of course.

Yeah, that out of everything. But it's almost, we're in this day and age with social media that there's a vapidness about looks, but also with money. Let's talk about that. There's a vapidness with looks and money. How do you coach someone out of those two things? So I want to talk about the eyebrows comment. So have you heard of the ick?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the ick. He told me it's the ick. So this person is getting the ick from the eyebrows comment. So have you heard of the ick? Yeah. Yeah. That's the ick. That's he told me. Yeah. So this person is getting the ick from the eyebrows. And the ick to me is so frustrating because I really feel like the ick is when somebody is just looking for an excuse to push someone away. OK. And it can really reflect an avoidant attachment style. And the truth is

that there's no way that that ick, that eyebrow thing would ever prevent these people from being in a great relationship, but they're using it as an excuse to push someone away and they're really looking for perfectionism. And so for a lot of people, it's about working on getting past the ick and even saying, well, what's your pattern? It seems like the last five people you've dated,

you found something wrong with them. Maybe you need to work on that. And so definitely for people who have the ick, explore why is this happening and what might be the deeper thing behind it. Okay. And what about money? With money, I think it can be hard because I don't want to pretend that money doesn't matter. But in my book, I talk about the things that matter more and less than we think they do for long-term relationships. So some of the things that matter less than we think are looks and money.

Of course, money matters. It makes life easier, but there's a concept of adaptation where over time you get used to what you have. So if you have a lot of money, you start getting used to having that amount of money. And that's why the research shows that if you say to people,

if you were to be paralyzed, how much worse would your life be? People say so much worse. If you say to somebody, if you won the lottery, how much better would your life be? And they say so much. Well, a year after winning the lottery, lottery winners return to a similar level of happiness as before. And a year after being paralyzed, those people return to a similar level of happiness as before. So you adapt to what's around you. And then the same thing goes for looks and money. Other things that matter less than people think are things like having the same personality. People say, I'm a partier. I need to find somebody who goes out. I'm like,

no, maybe you need to find someone who's chilling at home and actually is grounding for you. Or I'm so extroverted. I need an extrovert. No, maybe you need the compliment to you. So those things actually matter less. And the things that matter more, going back to what we were talking about, are things like the side of you they bring out, if you can fight well together, if you feel like they're kind and loyal and emotionally stable, because that's what the research shows matters long term. I also think if again, if I was dating in this climate, if I wanted a guy with money, I would go make my own money. I think that there's, you have to look in the mirror. If you want someone with a ton of money or perfectly straight teeth, do you have perfectly straight teeth? Do you have money in

your bank account? If you're asking for all these things from other people, there has to be some point where you're able to look at yourself and see if you're doing those well this goes back to like we talk about this on the show a lot self-awareness like sometimes i see people i'll pick on the guys in my life asking for things and saying they need things and i'll like what other thing i need somebody that's hot financially independent makes me laugh it's also gonna be a good mother perfect brows and like, dude, you live in a one bedroom and barely can make your rent payment and you don't take care of yourself. And I'm just using that as an example. I think sometimes people are not aware about what's available to them based on their own personal behaviors.

I think that's totally true. And I think there's a sense of a lot of people having a checklist for what they want from somebody else. But exactly as you said, they don't really realize that they're not doing the things for themselves to make themselves more attractive. And so I have this friend, Sam, who talks about how he was able to snag my friend, Sarah, who's this awesome, amazing person, who's his wife. And he's like, I really worked on myself. I developed hobbies. Women like people with hobbies. You know, I got really into denim and I could talk about how I was going to these denim swaps every weekend. I became a better storyteller so that I could do better on dates. And so I think, of course, we can talk about who you should be with, but let's also talk about how to make somebody want to be with you. Yeah. Also, I'll pick on it. Some of my

friends are going to listen to this and they're going to know exactly. That's okay. They need to be called out. I have another friend who's's is he sitting right there in the trench coat no it's not okay i won't pick on you another friend who's basically cheated on every girl he's ever been with and he'll get with a girl and it's the same pattern like this girl is now falling out of integrity and i'll look at him and i'll say how could you attract this type of person with all this integrity when literally every single time and it's again it's like this lack of awareness does that make make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I do dating coaching with people in the first session, I say, let's talk about your dating and relationship history, going back to literally middle school and high school, because a lot of times our scripts around

these things start then. So people will say, I was a late bloomer. People were never attracted to me. I would have crushes and they'd be unrequited. Or somebody would say, I was the only South Asian kid at a white school. So I didn't think I was attractive. And then you trace over time how these stories impact them. And so your friend, that's definitely the kind of thing I would explore in therapy, which is what type of people is he attracting? Why is he showing up in that way? Why is he not living in integrity and ending this relationship before he cheats on them? And I would also probably start with him by saying, what's your long-term goal? And do you know what his long-term goal is? Yeah. Well, I think what people say their long-term goal is versus what they actually

want their long-term goal to be. Yeah. There's a bit of delusion. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Tell me more. I think a lot of people will say their long-term goal is to end up in a healthy relationship with kids and all that, like the typical cookie cutter stuff. But then every single one of their behaviors will not map to that. So I'm like, dude, is that something you really want? Or is this something you think you should say to feel accepted? So let's say he said to me, I want to have a wife and kids. And I would say, great. So there's a path where you have a wife and kids, and then there's the path where you're on. And the path you're on, you keep repeating the same patterns of behavior over and over again.

You're not just gonna wake up one day magically and learn how to date, learn how to be in a healthy relationship. You need to take a step back, look at your behavior, and make an active choice to do something different because you're not on the wife and kids path. You're on the fuck boy path.

And if you really wanna change your outcome, you need to change your behavior. You know what, Logan? I told him that when we were on mushrooms. Great. How did it go? That's how I make all my big life decisions. I hope he listens. But I'm going to get you a little Logan touch next time. And I'm going to go a little bit gnarlier with the fuck boy. What is a fuck boy? What makes up a fuck boy? And why is there fuck boys? Oh, I have been doing a lot of research into fuck boys talking to fuck boys and talking to the people who they harm okay so a fuck boy is somebody who is hot and cold sometimes they seem interested in you sometimes they don't they pull away you don't know how they feel about you and they're really somebody who might get your

expectations high but then they disappoint you they like manipulating you yes but hold on in that line of question are there fuck girls too definitely thank you for saying that the boys right now i actually i want to get equal opportunity i i do hear you when i was writing my newsletter about this i was like fuck boy and this is a gender neutral term okay although it's not okay so let me tell you about this research from psychology that helps explain why we love fuckboys. Okay. So the psychologist B.F. Skinner, he had this experiment where he had two different pigeons in different cages.

So pigeon number one, every time it presses this lever, food comes out. And this is called continuous reward. I press the lever, food comes out. The second pigeon, when it pressed the lever, sometimes food would come out. Sometimes food wouldn't come out. Maybe every five times when it pressed the lever, sometimes food would come out. Sometimes food wouldn't come out. Maybe every five times, 20 times it's changing. And so that's called a partial reward schedule. So for the first pigeon, oh, so then what happens is he cuts off food for both of the pigeons. And the first pigeon says, I pressed it a few times. No more food came out.

Okay. The food must be done. And it stops. The second pigeon says, the second pigeon keeps pressing the lever until literally it passes out from exhaustion. And the reason is it's saying, maybe the food will come this time. Maybe the food will come this time. And this explains our addictive behavior. It's why we love Vegas.

It's why we love a slot machine. Because when you have partial reward systems, you're saying maybe now this will be the time. And that's what fuck boys are like. Sometimes they're into you. Sometimes they're not. And you get addicted to the not knowing. You get addicted to maybe he'll text me back this time. And so people should be with somebody who is consistent, who's securely attached, who shows up and is the constant food for the pigeon. But people think, oh, that's boring. And they get really drawn to the fuckboy where they don't know when they're going to get the attention

And so people really need to break that cycle and say i'm not putting up with that anymore and i'm going to stop confusing Anxiety for chemistry and really understand. No, this person isn't treating you the way you want to be treated long term I hate to break it to you. This is men and women. Yes. This is what guys have dealt with for forever Tell me about that. Well, you're you're a little traumatized because i was so inconsistent talk about how inconsistent listen and you probably drove you crazy and you loved it but i think you couldn't get enough it was you were the pigeon i think that this is just i think any man you passed out from exhaustion i think any man in this room is like well this is basically the story of my entire dating life when you're single but i think men get maybe again like maybe, again, I'll be the one that takes the flack on the comments. I think that

we just don't describe it that way. We're just like, this is what it's like to kind of be out there as a man single in the world trying to find a woman. I really tend not to be that gendered with my advice. Obviously, some things like fertility timelines do differ based on gender, but I think this is something where people of all genders are doing it. It's like you are more interested in the person who sometimes rejects you because it's really exciting when they don't reject you. This morning, if you watched my Instagram story, you saw me taking a glutathione by Symbiotica. This is one of my favorite supplements that I take. It tastes so good. It comes in like a little pouch that you open. It's absolutely delicious. I look forward to it

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drink my coffee. So I do a lemon water with electrolytes. Maybe I add some colostrum in there. Sometimes I put some pearl powder in there. I just like make a concoction, sometimes collagen. And I'll drink that before I drink coffee because electrolytes are amazing for you before you dehydrate the body with coffee. And then I'll drink that with my two probiotics that I take every single morning. These probiotics I have been taking for the last like five years, they're by Just Thrive. You guys have heard me talk about them over and over. I get the ones that you just swallow, but my children like the gummies.

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It cleans the household great. And you know you are living in an environment that you don't have to worry about. Of course, we have a special offer for our listeners. You can save 15% on your starter kit or their new hand soap when you use code SKINNY at www.branchbasics.com. Again, that is code SKINNY for 15% off when you purchase a starter kit or their new gel hand soap atanchbasics.com. Again, that is code skinny for 15% off when you purchase a starter kit or their new gel hand soap at branchbasics.com. How do the relationships with your parents show up in your relationships when you're an adult? Yes. So are you familiar with attachment theory? No, tell us about it. No, but it's something I have in my notes to talk to you about. So maybe we'll just jump to that right now. Okay, great. So in my field of relationship science, attachment theory is one of the things that's

best researched. It's based on a ton of great work, starting with John Bowlby in the 1960s. And so this is really about how you respond to independence and to intimacy. And so the original study, or is it interesting when I go into this? Yes, we love, our audience loves this too. Please, I'm so into this. No, I'm looking at you intently because I'm really concentrating right now. Okay, great. Okay. And I know that you have little kids, so just put yourself in this position. Yeah, good. Okay. So the moms would bring their babies into a laboratory and then they would put the babies down into a play area and the mom would leave the room and they would analyze how did the baby respond to the mom leaving, the mom being their primary

caregiver. So some babies, the mom would leave, the baby would start crying, the mom would pick the baby back up when they came in the room and the baby would continue crying. These are called anxiously attached babies. They're afraid of being abandoned and even when the mom comes back, it doesn't make them feel better. Then there's securely attached babies. They're afraid of being abandoned. And even when the mom comes back, it doesn't make them feel better. Then there's securely attached babies. So the mom leaves, the baby cries. But when the mom comes back in, the baby stops crying. Okay. Mom is here again. I feel good. And then there's avoidant attached babies. The mom leaves and the baby doesn't cry.

But we know from things like their cortisol levels that the baby's really upset, but it doesn't feel like it can cry because it doesn't think the mom will come back. And so all of this from when we're children can actually play out in how we are as adults in romantic relationships. So let's talk about anxiously attached daters. So if I'm an anxiously attached dater, I always think I'm going to be abandoned. I really have a fear of not being able to reach you. If you stop responding to my texts, I start worrying, okay, he's going to break up with me. He's not interested. And I really start spiraling. Avoidant attached daters. They start thinking, this person's going to smother me. This person is going to take away my independence. So they start pulling away. They're the people who Sunday morning, 8 a.m. are like, hey, just called you an

Uber, right? Get out of my house. And so the securely attached people are people who are comfortable with intimacy, but also comfortable with independence. And so they are really the heroes of the dating world because they have great relationships. They help break bad habits. And so one other thing is that 25% of the population is anxiously attached. 25% is avoidant attached and 50% are secure. So you say, oh, this is a good thing. A lot of securely attached people out there. But unfortunately, most of them are coupled up. So the dating pool is the anxiously attached and the avoidant attached people.

Meaning the 50% typically find each other, like the same 50%. They find each other or they find anxious or avoidant people and they get into relationships. But then you have the anxious and avoidant people dating each other. And this is called the anxious avoidant loop. So are you saying that those, and sorry, I just let you go. No, no, no, please. Are you saying those first two 25% are the primary dating pool because the other ones are coupled up?

A lot of that is true. And with other securely attached people or with avoidant or anxious people. So let me tell you about the anxious avoidant loop. I'm anxiously attached. My story around love is that I'm going to chase you and you're going to pull away. You're avoidant attached. Your story around love is that you're going to lose your independence and be smothered. So I start dating you, you pull away, you reinforce my story. Then you feel like I'm smothering you. We keep dating each other until something has to change. And so for me, I was an anxiously attached dater. If somebody didn't respond to me, I was calling them. I was sending 30 texts. I was

doing what's called protest behavior. And I thought that that's what dating meant. And so one time I was walking the streets of San Francisco and I was texting this guy, Scott, who is my new boyfriend. And I was like, you didn't show up for my friends. I'm really mad at you. And I start like pecking away at my phone, really pissed at him. And I knew where it would end up and end up in a fight because that's how this always went. But instead, this guy, Scott, was like, hmm, seems like you're really upset. We should talk about this in person. And that was this crazy aha moment where he broke this cycle, where he was securely attached. His mom is a therapist. And he really helped me see that there was another way to be in relationships. And now,

10 years later, this is my husband. And I really feel like from being with somebody secure, it helped me break that anxious attachment that I had and helped me become more secure. Why were you anxiously attached? Do you remember being little and something happened where you became like that? Yeah. So, you know, I really hate thinking about, oh, we just all need to blame our moms for our problems. First of all, we have plenty of- Oh, great. You can't say dads, too? Can you say dads? No, no, no. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, let's blame the dad, too. The original research was done with moms. So, of course, plenty of dads are primary caregivers. So, some percentage of it is genetics. Some percentage of it is based on our primary caregivers. And so

you can't just blame your parents. And it's not like I have a specific memory of my mom being this way, but it is true that the way that I was showing up in relationships was consistently like this. And through working with the dating coach and through really figuring out my attachment style, that's been the biggest unlock for me and for my clients and having happy relationships. So really, if people take away one thing from this, I think it's understand your attachment style. And if you're anxiously attached,

focus on becoming more secure or finding somebody secure. And the same thing is true for avoidant attached people. What are you? What am I? I know what you are. I just want to know what you think you are. Let's say are you what am i what am i i know what you are i just want to know what you think let's say what you think i am first no say what you are i think i at first i was thinking i again i'll get the comments i was somebody that would call ubers and say time for you to go yep you never did that to me once but at the same time i think i'm stable i think i'm secure i think i'm stable secure yeah is that what you were gonna say about him i was gonna say secure well i but here's what

here's what's tough i this is actually a question i think that you've been that to me but can you be different things i don't know how you were to other girls calling an uber i would have kicked your fucking ass if you called me an uber in the morning i would have been like you call a date myself here but i was taxis there was not even okay taxis but so like can you be different attachments within different like it can happen that somebody can uh trigger something in you like i've worked with clients and it's like the most secure guy super successful ceo and then he starts calling me and i'm like you just don't sound like yourself and some girls just bring out a really anxious side of him i'm like I know she's great on paper and you think

she's your dream girl, but she's clearly making you anxious. And this is going to be a turnoff to her because you just don't seem confident. Could I ask you another question? Maybe you just actually answered it. You could maybe exhibit some behaviors of some people. Like say I'm stable with her, but I was was not what's not the anxious one what's the other one yeah there's avoidant and anxious yeah if i was avoidant with other people but stable is that yeah so that can happen and there's like a few subcategories of these things which you might have been but it can also be that over time people work on becoming more secure but it sounds like maybe with the two of you it just brought out a secure side of

yourself or maybe because you were pulling away it made you want her more this is another topic that we touched on the old pull away it got people got to use that one more all you have to do is a little bit of a fuck girl if i can use the term i was going back to the fuck boy well you think i was what style do you think that you were she was a little hot and cold to be honest oh i'm hot and i was hot and cold but you know what i've noticed is like anyone can use this tactic hot tip hot and cold when you're dating it just makes the person lean in i know but that's kind of going back to the pigeon thing and it's like i would say if you were single right now when i was coaching somebody who was dating you i'd be like no don't date her I would be considered toxic yeah I would just say like for sure no I would I'm actually self-aware enough to know

that when I was it's too late for you but I was manipulative yeah but at least I can be self-aware no you are totally self-aware but I just wouldn't give that advice to people because it's like it will work in the short term and then when you're actually in a relationship, they'll realize, oh, I didn't like you. I liked this partial reward schedule where I didn't know if I was going to get you or not. Wait, but Logan, what if I still do it in my marriage a hundred years later? I still am hot and cold.

But here's the thing. I'll tell you later. I think about this a lot. When we got together, again, we should not be the dating experts. We've been together so long. You're the dating expert. But I think there are two things here. When we first got together again, like we should not be the dating experts. We've been together so long. You're the dating expert. But I think the two things here, when we first got together, I was in my twenties. And so I was, you know, I would, I was not as advanced in my years and thought

pattern. Now, if you, if Lauren and I were not together and I was single at 37, 38 years old with two kids and an ex-wife, if I sat down and even for one second some girl was playing games i'll just get up and leave i don't have time for this shit right i don't have time i got i don't have time for it i got options i got kids i got an ex-wife like i just don't have time for the game and i think that's where people like you can do some of the stuff maybe when you're younger and you're a little bit more inexperienced but older more mature people don't have time for this shit another way of saying it is like games work until they stop working yeah just be who you are and if the person is into it great and if they're not too bad so i just heard about this story about this girl who she doesn't eat gluten she doesn't

eat dairy she works out every single day and that's her values that's how she spends her time and then she was dating this guy who wants to party and he broke up with her because he felt like their lifestyles just didn't align and then then I was like, your lifestyles don't align. This is clearly how you're spending your time. And this is your health is your priority. Instead of trying to change yourself or change him, find someone who actually wants the same things you do. And so I think that's one of those things where it's like, don't try to be someone you're not. Don't try to play it cool. What actually works is being authentic, showing who you are and the person who you should be with is the person who's going to be excited about who you actually are. On that line of questioning or in that theme, I also think that sometimes people that are single that start dating

and say they want to get serious about a relationship don't realize that you actually have to make some sacrifices and change some things about yourself. And I say this to my single guy friends, because I think the older you get, the more stuck in your ways you get. When Lauren and I got together, I realized if I want to be in a healthy long-term relationship and marriage and eventually have children and a family, there are certain behaviors that I just can't carry with me any longer. Like you will not see me on the guy's trip doing whatever. You will not see me out in the bar. You will not see me doing certain, like there's certain things

that you just have to make peace with. And what I tell a lot of my single friends is if you're not done with that stuff, then just be honest with yourself and say you're not done with it. But if you're going to be in a serious relationship, like there's certain behaviors you're just not allowed to do anymore.

Just how it is. Totally. Yes, I agree with that. And so when I work with someone in a dating coaching capacity, I start by understanding where they're getting stuck in the process. So I'll start with even their dating app. So I'll say, okay, show me your profile. Does this profile match the person that I'm sitting in front of?

Yes or no? Okay, let's work on that. Are you getting matches? Are you getting dates? Are the first dates turning into second dates? Are the second dates turning into third dates? Are you getting into relationship? Are you staying in relationships? Like where in the dating timeline are you getting stuck? And so for certain people, the issue is early on, they're just not doing well on first dates. Great. We need to redesign your first dates. We need first dates that bring out the best side of

you. We need darker lighting in these dates. We need more romance. For other people, they're great first dates, but they are too picky. And after the third date, they're talking about the eyebrows. They're talking about socks with sandals. And so I really like to think about each stage of the process and say, where is your mindset not serving you? What are the patterns that are holding you back? And so it sounds like for some of your friends, you feel like it's not as much who they're choosing. It's really who they are right now. Yeah. I will say though, socks or sandals are a deal breaker. Are they? Are they? Socks or sandals? I don't think so. I can work with that. Give me the ick. I can work with that. That doesn't give me the ick. I can work with socks and sandals. I can't work. I cannot work with someone who

takes themselves too seriously. I need someone who's self-deprecating. I need someone who's in on the joke. I need a little wittiness. I can deal with socks and sandals. What is an absolutely atrocious dating profile like you've never seen worse? Okay. So when I work with clients, they're often don't have terrible profiles. I'm just like, wow, these are all photos from the same day. This is not telling your story that you're just a girl with a dog who took a photo shoot on the streets of San Francisco. Like this just seems so boring or a guy who doesn't even like Burning Man, but went to Burning Man once and has a lot of photos from it. So that's his whole profile where the photos and the prompts on hinge just don't tell me anything about you. People also have so many cliches. So the big cliches these days are things like, let's debate pineapple on pizza, or I'm overly competitive about everything. So there's just these things that people repeat over time.

We just saw at Hinge that there was a 1600% increase from April to May of people writing unusual skills, dot, dot, dot, getting my hoodie back. And so it's like somebody on TikTok said this works and then everybody put it on their profile. So cliches really hold you back and they don't help you stand out. But I could give you tips for a good profile. What are the things that we should be best practicing on our dating profile? Okay. So at Hinge, we've done a lot of research on this. We look at people who get dates, people who get into relationships, what are they doing on their

profiles? Some of this will seem simple, but so many profiles violate this. So your first picture needs to be a clear headshot. I know what you look like. No filters, no sunglasses. I need to just see your face. If I can't, I'm not going to investigate. I'm just going to be annoyed and swipe on. Got it. Okay. Then you need photos with a full body shot. People want to see what you look like. Photos of you doing an activity you love and photos with friends and family. We want to get a picture of your life and your profile should really tell a story. So I have this concept of the three big things. What are three big things that I must know about you to be interested in you? So it might be like, I'm a huge Miami Heat fan. I'm really close with my family. And I love Barry's Boot Camp.

Okay, great. Then make sure that in your photos and your prompt answers, you're telling us that. And so in prompts, people make mistakes where they're too silly and not serious. Or they're too serious and they're not funny enough. And people really need a mixture of humor and vulnerability. That's what people are drawn to. We just had a viral moment where we were talking about dating and where to meet people. And basically there was this theme of fuck boys and guys kind of not pursuing anymore. Lauren said it's the soy milk and it kind of went

crazy. But one of the things I was saying was when I was dating, we didn't have the apps and you actually had to go out and you'd see one person. And if you're lucky, they paid attention to you. You had a five minute window to kind of like sell yourself. And the argument I made was for a lot of guys, for girls saying that men don't pursue anymore, I was like, well, there's this thing called apps now where you have what feels, maybe not true, like a lot more options than what we used to. Based on the data you've seen, how do you kind of coach people for that? And how do you get them to not kind of throw away something that's good in hopes of finding the next thing quickly? Yeah. So this is definitely a problem that I see in my coaching, that I see in the research. And so there's this idea of instead of relationship shipping, where you are working to get into a

relationship, it's called relation shopping. And you're shopping for somebody as if you were shopping for a new pair of headphones. And so you say, I want the body of this girl. I want the ambition of this girl. I want the family of this girl. Oh, I'm looking for this perfect girl. And so you're really shopping for this person, but humans are not purchases and you can't just pick all the specs that you want. And so really shifting people from that mindset is the first step. The second thing I would say is I do think there's a problem right now where people aren't focusing and they're just not looking at the person in front of them and valuing them. They're saying, well, I forgot to respond to her message, but there's a thousand other

girls I can message. And so Hinge actually just introduced this new feature called Your Turn Limits. It's probably the thing I've been most excited about at Hinge for the last few years. So basically, if you have eight conversations where it's your turn to respond, you either have to close out of one of the messages or respond before you can get more matches. That's cool. It's really cool because some people are telling me, oh, I hate it. It's forcing me to choose. I'm like, that is the whole point. You are not focusing. You are not choosing. You're doing this for attention. You are focused on quality over quantity, and You are not focusing. You are not choosing. You're doing this for attention.

You are focused on quality over quantity, and that's not working. And this is actually a pretty bold idea to say you're going to have more success if you're talking to eight or fewer people at the same time, and we're going to force you to focus. What are the red flags that you would call out when it comes to a date where you should just be like, this is not the right person for me? Oh, my goodness. So many red flags. Pull out your scroll. Okay. So let's talk about the ick and what it isn't. Jared Freed, the comedian, has this hilarious thing about like a girl who's like, I love this guy. I'm ready to sleep with him. Then he goes to pay the bill and I hear and it's the sound of a Velcro wallet opening. Okay. And the girl's just like, I'm out.

Why is that icky? What's wrong with the Velcro wallet? okay and the girl's just like i'm out why is that icky what's the you know she had some assumption that velcro wallets are things that you have in high school okay so those are are we getting this yes wow this is what the ick looks like in 2024 okay i guess it's like so hard to relate to if you've missed this whole era for us because like and the guys out there that come from this era will relate this. If there was just one person paying attention, I'd be like, yeah, someone's paying attention.

It's just, it's like, you would never even get to the point of thinking about the wallet or even joking aside. You know what I mean? Maybe we're getting a little too many options. Yeah. I think that there are too many options.

There's so much research on the paradox of choice. When you have too many choices, it can make you like the decision that you make less and it can make you have decision paralysis where you don't make a decision at all. And so I think that absolutely is happening. And just, you know, even somebody was speaking to today, he was like, I spent a bunch of time on Hinge last weekend. I messaged a few guys, but then they messaged me back and I haven't responded to them since. And he's like, can you look at my profile? I was like, Anthony, the problem is not your profile. The problem is that you're not responding

to the people who are interested in you. And so I think a lot of times we want to blame, oh, I live in the worst city for dating. I'm like, well, people from Austin, New York, LA, San Francisco all tell me that. I don't think the issue is your city. I think the issue is you and your patterns and how you're showing up. So you're saying people in every major city say it's the worst city. Oh my God. I get DMs. Because we hear that all the time. Yes. How could it be true in every city? Every single day without fail, I make my bowl of meat, the Lauren Bostic bowl of meat. This has changed my hair, my nails, my life, my weight, everything. I cannot tell you enough good things. And every single day I make a different version of it. I

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D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T.com slash skinny. Try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, give it away to a salty friend and they'll give you your money back. No questions asked. They have a very low return rate because this product is incredible. Again, that's drinkelement.com slash skinny. I think we're just living in a world that there's too many options, but I think there's a mixture of grand, what is called grand, when you're grandiosity. Like delusions of grandeur? Yes. There's delusions of grandeur going on, on both sides that I see from an outside perspective. Is that something you see?

I think that's going back to the point that you made earlier about people where they have this checklist for what they want, but they don't even have those things themselves. Right. Well, you know, you're a new mom now and what you're going to see and what, you know, as you have kids, you get them these toys and they start to get a bunch of toys. When you get a kid, a bunch of toys, you realize they just kind of throw them all over and they don't pay. When you have a kid focus on one toy, they'll sit for an hour and just play with this thing or just color. And I think the endless, and listen, I'm an entrepreneur. I think it would be a huge mistake if I told everyone in the company, like, you do whatever

you want. You can move into any department you feel like and just try a bunch of different things. Nothing would get done. You know what I mean? I just think this idea that we have all of these options, to your point earlier, it's taking our focus away from things that we should be paying attention to long-term. And it's creating this endless loop of kind of like maybe stage one dating. We never even get to the deeper stages because you've thrown it away before it can even get to a deeper relationship. So let me tell you about one more study. Please. Okay.

So people are really drawn to choice and they always want to keep their options open. They always want to be able to reverse their decisions. And we really feel drawn to doing that. But actually, the research shows that when we are forced to make a decision, it makes us happier. So there's this professor at Harvard named Daniel Gilbert, and he ran this experiment. So he had different students take this photography class, and he ran it over two different weekends. And at the end of the class, he said, there's going to be an exhibit in London. Pick one of the pictures that you took this weekend, and we're going to send it to the exhibit. And for students in one of the weekends, he had a grad student call them later and say, hey,

you can actually change the picture if you want to. And for some of the students, they couldn't change the picture. And so in the end, when they asked the students how they felt about the picture that they chose, the students who didn't have a chance to change their mind felt better about it. The students who could have changed their mind felt worse about the picture even when they didn't change it. And that's because in those moments of doubting yourself, weighing the pros and cons, going through all the options, you actually are making a pro-con list in your head and you have a bunch of cons and you start focusing on the negatives. And so oftentimes the ability to not change your mind,

to make a decision and to stick to it is actually helpful because once you make a decision, your brain goes into rationalization mode and feels better about it. So for me, I'm married. This is my husband. My husband does something that annoys me. I can just say, well, it's in the context of relationship and he's such a good dad and I can move on. But when you're in the early stages

of relationships, you can always find a reason to reject someone. And I really think that that's a huge problem with dating right now, that if you feel like there's just a constant stream of people that you can be with, if you mess this one up, what is really encouraging you to make this one work? Yeah, that's my point exactly, is there's really, if you're somebody that feels like you have endless options and that there's a constant stream of swiping, then why would you ever deal with any kind of headache

in any relationship? Yeah, and that's really something that we're seeing with Gen Z. So Gen Z, according to our research at hand, was really impacted by the pandemic from during those critical high school and college years, not being in person, not having communication techniques. They don't know how to get rejected. They don't know how to ask for what they want.

They don't know how to be vulnerable. And so you're wondering, why is Gen Z having less sex? Well, guess what? Sex requires a lot of awkward conversations and vulnerability and negotiating ambiguity. And so we're just finding that a lot of people are having a hard time having hard conversations and moving through things. And instead, they're just not engaging in those conversations at all and just giving up.

So how do you get two people to get on the same page about this? Because I imagine people listening like, OK, I'm going to put in more time and I'm not going to be as, you know, throw away with the relationships I have. Yeah. But then how do you get the other person to reciprocate that? Because I imagine that is the problem, right? Yeah. A big expression that I hear, I'm sure you hear it on your show all the time is like, I want someone who's done the work and what that really means to me. And I know I live in San Francisco and I'm part of this like

West Coast vibe is really, I've spent a lot of time becoming the person I want to be. And I have gone through therapy. I've dealt with the issues from my parents. I know who I am and what I want. And I want to be with someone who's done the same. And so I have people often female friends who are like, this guy needs to go to therapy and I don't want to be his therapist. He seems to have nobody to talk to except me. I'm not going to catch him up. And so I think if both people in the relationship can be somebody who really knows themselves, they're self-aware, they know what they want, they can have a conversation that says, are we heading in the same direction? Do we have the same values? And so I

think the only way to move forward is for both people to put on the table what they're like and what they want and see, are we a match? Instead, when people play games or people feel like they can't be themselves, it's really hard to see, is this going to work or not? What are other red flags? I feel like we didn't get all of them. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a big red flag that people don't talk about enough is like, is the person kind? Kindness is just such an important part. It's like, does your partner care that it's your birthday and do they want to make you happy? When your mom comes into town, do they make an effort to be nice to her? Do they have friends from a long period of their life, which is the kind of person who would help their friends move? And I think we think so much about height and I'm just so sick of it. It's like people say, oh, I need a guy who's over six feet tall. It's like, guess what percentage of men in the U.S. are over six feet tall it's like guess what percentage of men in the u.s are over six feet tall but also the height thing like who cares that's how i don't understand that that's how i feel 14 of men in the u.s are six feet or taller so that means that if you had set your filters on hinge to be six feet

or taller you are eliminating 86 of men out there don't you think though that's a problem that dating apps are even giving us that filter to go through? I think that it definitely makes it harder when people start anchoring on things like height, because in the end, you've probably dated some tall guys and it hasn't worked out. That's the date like a scientist moment where you say date some short guys and you might be surprised and your love of your life is in there. But if you're so strict with your parameters, you're just going to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again i also have news for everyone i've dated guys that are over six feet and i've dated guys under six feet and the ones that are under six feet have a bigger dick so if you're gonna date a guy that's over this is this is my own research okay this is

my own research and i by the way i would never marry i would never marry opinion let's say pull that clip i would never marry taunt them but the guys the guys that are over six foot you're sacrificing something else sometimes as the man and again i'll get eaten of the comments the women that asked for that parameter what if there was a filter for men that said we need a weight filter i have had that debate so many times like what if that like imagine if i was a filter for men that said we need a weight filter? I have had that debate so many times. Like what if that like imagine if I was pushing for that, I would be labeled. That's a filter. I would be labeled the most misogynist.

No, no, no. I totally what you're saying. The most misogynistic, sexist, like asshole out there. But this is what a lot of women are doing to men. And I just think you can't enter into a meaningful, respectful relationship if that's the filter you're leaning in with. Basically, I had a video go viral last year around this exact point about stop filtering out short men. And my comments were just heated debates with men saying exactly that point. What if there was a weight filter? Well, there's not literally a weight filter. But of course, when people are going through the app, they are looking at that.

And so the issue isn't women are doing something wrong and men aren't, or why isn't there a weight filter? It's like, yes, people are already doing this. And I'm saying it to everyone. I'm saying you have an image in your head of who you should be with, what this person looks like. And then when you meet someone that doesn't match it, you don't give them a chance. But if things haven't been working out, why not try doing something differently? And maybe this is the time that it'll work. But don't you think- And maybe they would have said no to Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan's five, six. Don't sleep on- Maybe five, seven.

Don't sleep on short guys. Don't shortchange people. Oh, totally. But don't you think though that some of these apps, and I know they've done a lot of great things, but maybe they do a disservice to some people where they even enable these filters to exist because you're basically signaling like,

this is something you should filter for or look for. Where again, going back to, I think a lot of people find meaningful relationships basically signaling like this is something you should filter for or look for where again going back to I think a lot of people find meaningful relationships where they're able to focus and get to know the person and develop intimacy and have you know really deep conversations where it's like a lot of this stuff is so surface that it's like okay if you don't check some of these surface boxes there's no way to even get to the deeper things I totally agree I say to people all the time if you met this person at a bar you would not say stand up so I can see how tall you are. But when you're sitting there making your profile, you're creating these parameters.

And so I had this singles party a few years ago where I had 54 people, half men, half women. And at the end of it, 70 dates came out of it because you could match with more than one person. And then I sent out this survey. The person who you matched with, is this the end of it, 70 dates came out of it because you could match with more than one person. And then I sent out this survey, the person who you matched with, is this the kind of person who you would have said yes to on a dating app? And many people said no, not because they wouldn't have liked that person,

but they literally would not have shown up on their dating app because they would have filtered them out for age, for height, for religion. And so I think when you hear that, I want people to say, I'm gonna broaden my parameters on the app because I'm so sure about what I need. Six feet tall is so important to me. And it's like, if you just

embrace this idea of, I think I know what I want, but I'm wrong, then you can actually find the love of your life who you've been filtering out. Don't you think it would be cool if someone made an app, Logan, you should do this, where it was nothing about looks or height or weight or even your picture. Say it was pictureless and it didn't have religion on it. And all you could do on this app was actually get to know people. Don't you think a lot of profound connections would come out of that? They have run experiments like this. And what ends up happening is that when the people finally see each other,

it sort of goes back to what would have happened before. So my shift and how I like to think about it is Hinge, the apps, they're the modern matchmaker. They're connecting to people. Then once you go on the date, it's just like dating has always been where you have to impress the person. You have to show a good side of yourself. You have to be kind. You have to be generous. And so I do think that the way that people date online has an influence in culture. But I also think that it's once the date starts, it's not about technology. It's about you. And what are you doing to attract people or repel people?

Lauren, they did a whole show about what you're talking about. It's called Catfish. No, no, no. That's not Catfish. That's not what I'm talking about. No, I totally get what you're saying, which is like, how can we just focus on it? But the truth is, people want to be attracted to the person and like this is kind of what love is blind is yeah and so it's like i do think that love is blind is a cool experiment because you're really thinking about how would i

feel about somebody if i didn't know what they looked like and would i fall in love with them but then as the show shows you over time you need to also be attracted to them. I'm not telling people not to worry about looks. I'm saying the perfect package or the person you end up falling for may not have the package you're expecting. Yeah, I think that there's something to be said about pheromones and energy and inner and seeing somebody like, and again, I agree with you. Like you can't put a blanket idea on what you think is attractive because you never know once you get around somebody.

But I think the idea of not seeing anybody and then out and then developing a meaningful relationship is just not realistic how to not die alone what are what are the tips yes okay how to not die alone so in my dating coaching i found that i work with people from all walks of life but a lot of them suffer from the same thing which is unrealistic expectations and so i put them into this framework called the three dating tendencies so the first one is the romanticizer and this person has unrealistic expectations of relationships okay you're smiling you might be a romanticizer no no no no we just know someone okay yeah for each of these think about somebody that you know we can talk about about them. Check. So the romanticizer is like, I need a romantic we met story.

I'm single because I just haven't met my soulmate yet. I'm waiting for love to happen to me. I don't want to put too much effort in. It's not romantic. The maximizer is the person who has unrealistic expectations of their partner. I'm looking for the perfect partner. I'm searching for the perfect partner. I'm searching for them. I want to Frankenstein, you know, a girl based on all these qualities of different

girls I've dated. It's all about finding the perfect person and then everything else will be easy. And the third one is the hesitator and they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. They feel like I'm just not who I want to be yet. I'm not dating because I'm not lovable yet. I'm not a hundred percent ready. Andvable yet. I'm not 100% ready. And so they're just not even dating at all. Hold on. What if you know someone that's a mix of all three? Somebody can be the mix of all three.

But if you're not dating at all, usually the hesitator tendency is the strongest because like something's holding you back from dating. So the follow up question to that is if you know you're one of these things, how do you break yourself out and stop being those things? So people can take the quiz on my website to find out which one they are or it's in my book. And so let's talk about the romanticizer first. So a big thing that I talk about with people is who cares about your we met story? If you're together for 50 years, the day you met is 0.0055% of the total relationship. I don't care if you met at a bar if you met at hinge if you met on the subway what's romantic is that you met it doesn't matter how you met

and so for them they need to move from something called the soulmate mindset it'll only work with the perfect person to the work it out mindset relationships work if we put effort into it for the maximizer and I work with a lot of maximizers, these are people who need to stop focusing so much on the exact person that they're going to be with. They feel like it's something like 95% who you choose and 5% the effort. And that's not true. Great relationships are built. They're not discovered. So you could make it work with a lot of different people. And what you really need to do is you need to find somebody great and make the relationship great and not just find the perfect person. So there's this concept

called maximizer and satisficer. Maximizer is I'm going to search the whole world until I find what I want. A satisficer is somebody who says, I have standards and they might be really high, but when I meet someone great who satisfies those standards, I'm going to commit to them. I'm not just going to keep looking. And a lot of the happily married people I know are satisficers. They didn't settle. They just found someone great and committed to them. And for the hesitators, it's really about just getting themselves out there.

Pick a deadline. I'm going to date by this date. I'm going to get pictures for my Hinge profile. I'm going to get a few cute first date outfits. And I understand that nobody's ever 100% ready to date. And if you want to start dating, you need to start now. Where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself out. Where can they buy your book? Yeah. So How to Not Die Alone is available. People can follow me on Instagram at Logan Urie. And then my Netflix show, The Later Daters, is coming out on November 29th.

And what's the show? Like, give us the specifics on the show. Yay. Okay. I'm so excited about the show. So the show is about helping daters who are over 55 find love. And so I work with them as a coach and we focus on the fact that you're born knowing how to love, but not how to date. And I'm really teaching these people how to date after years of being in unhappy relationships or after being single for 20 years. And so it's really about growth. It's family friendly because their kids or their grandkids or their ex is involved and you really meet them in the context of their lives. And so you watch them in coaching, you watch them with their family, you watch them on dates, and I think people really enjoy it.

You are amazing. Thank you so much for coming on our show. I might have a friend for you to talk to. We'd have a couple. Thank you so much, Logan. Thank you, Logan. Yeah, thanks for having me.