The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - The Mastermind Behind Your Favorite Fashion Brands: Rachel Zeilic - Taking Risks, Learning From Mistakes, & Making Strategic Decisions

Episode Date: August 6, 2019

#206: On this episode we sit down with Rachel Zeilic. Rachel is the mastermind behind some of your favorite fashion brands  including Stylestalker, The Jet Set Diaries, & Majorelle. On this episode we discuss how to take risks, make strategic decisions, and how we can learn from our mistakes. To connect with Rachel Zeilic click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by THRIVE MARKET. We use Thrive for our online grocery delivery on a weekly basis and we also now get our wine at Thrive! They provide the highest quality products and ingredients delivered straight to our door with unbeatable prices.  This episode is brought to you by RITUAL Forget everything you thought you knew about vitamins. Ritual is the brand that’s reinventing the experience with 9 essential nutrients women lack the most. If you’re ready to invest in your health, do what I did and go to www.ritual.com/skinny  Your future self will thank you for taking Ritual: Consider it your ‘Lifelong-Health-401k’. Why put anything but clean ingredients (backed by real science) in your body? Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. get the vitamins and minerals they need on a daily basis. So Ritual created a smarter vitamin with the nine essential ingredients women lack most. Go to ritual.com slash skinny today to choose clean ingredients backed by science. Sign up now at ritual.com slash skinny. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential. Him and her. Aha!

Just have to dive in and do it. And the first iteration's not going to be perfect. You learn really fucking quickly when it's your own money that you're losing. A, you have to do it. And B, you can teach yourself anything. I think it's bullshit in the corporate world that people have these jobs that are so focused. Like not only do I work in influencer marketing, I only do the pre-sale decks. I don't do the whole gamut of everything. It's like, if you need to figure out how to find a factory or how to ship things, you can figure everything out.

Happy Tuesday. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show. Today's episode is with Rachel Zielek. She is the mastermind between all your favorite brands. That's right, Style Stalker, the Jet Set Diaries, and Majorelle, which are all sold on the trendy site that most of you guys know of, Revolve. She's also the VP of Influencer and Talent Relations at Click Media. This girl knows her shit, let me tell you. I had the pleasure of going out to dinner with her and one of my favorite influencers, Rumi Neely. We went to the Sunset Towers and we had the best conversation. They're both so smart. Rumi's actually going to be coming on the show soon, too. And I just found both of them to have so much valuable information about this space. So I invited both of them on the show. All right, Michael, Taylor, we got Taylor on today. Taylor,

hopefully your mic is hot, like we told you. My mic is always hot. It's not always hot. You're lying always hot. It's not always hot. You're lying and you're also not always hot. I'm actually extremely surprised that you were ready to go. Taylor, what's been going on in your life lately? Oh, just a lot of work. A lot of dear media stuff. We're constantly working on new things.

So we're constantly evolving like myself as a person. I'm always evolving, always learning, always becoming better. And I'm taking all of the criticism and critique that you guys talk about on the show. And I apply to myself. So I am the best person I've ever been. What's something that you've learned from the show that's brought you a lot of value? Yeah. And honestly, I want to know what's going on in between all of that stuff, because we haven't heard. Listen, I know that you're not just keeping it level. I know there's been some creepy stuff going on. Yeah, you're right. Actually, I can't really remember one particular specific piece of advice that you guys talk about because

I always listen. You literally just said you're learning all sorts of advice and you now you can't remember. You can't remember one thing. Hey, well, it's fine. No, it's not fine. I love to put you on the spot. You can't remember one thing that you've picked up from the show. What the hell are you doing back there the whole time we're recording? You're in every session. One story that I always think is funny. This is very, very short. So you guys always talk about like efficiency and this and that, like how to be efficient. I want to give like an example of inefficiency that there was this one time when the time zones changed

and the clock in my car, instead of like, I didn't change it right away. Everyone's like roll their clock back, you know, an hour before, like right when the clock changed, there was this time that I waited about a month and I thought, okay, well, fuck it. It's about a month sooner later. It was like eight months, then nine months. And I thought, okay, perfect. There's not even a reason to change it because the time change is going to come back up again. So I just waited an entire

time change. And then finally the clock re-synced back. Taylor, what are you talking about? I swear to God, you, you're somebody, when I describe you to people, I say, Taylor's stories have a beginning, no middle, and no end. What is going on with you back there? Wait, so you learned from our podcast how to be inefficient? No, I was just trying to give an example of being inefficient. Why would you? I mean, listen, the whole show is about bettering yourself,

learning how to be efficient, learning how to manage time, learning how to push yourself to better. Why would you? So what you're doing is you're taking the opposite? No, no, I'm just trying to let the audience know. This is an example of what not to do. Okay, well. I'm setting the stage.

Happy Tuesday. Setting the stage is what I'm doing. You're setting the stage. Okay, well, I have some news. My dad's restaurant has finally opened in San Diego. I'm so excited. If you guys are there, you got to go in. If you travel there or you're a tourist there,

it's amazing. They have the best cocktails. A lot of them I gave my opinions on and their food's insane and they have so many Instagrammable spaces. We're obsessed. It already has five stars on Yelp. Everyone is in love.

It's called Alce 101 and it's in Solana Beach. On the Pacific Coast Highway, the 101, Lauren, hence 101. Yes, hence 101. And Taylor has beenana Beach. On the Pacific Coast Highway, the 101, Lauren, hence 101. Yes, hence 101. And Taylor has been known to be at the bar there. The opening of it was the last time that I like officially blacked out from drinking. You blacked out that night? Oh, what a rave review.

Well, listen. Yeah, the grand opening. Yeah, I blacked out. It was a lot of tequila. I was a little buzzed up myself. I feel like you had to help me to the car. I think you knocked over a chair at one point. Hence to say we had some input on the bar menu. Yeah, the bar menu is bomb, guys. Definitely try it out. I think you'll like it. Order the big bowl of chili. It's delicious. It is delicious. Chili. On that big bowl of chili note, let's welcome Rachel Zielek to the Skinny Confidential Him him and her show. She is an entrepreneur. She is a badass. And she is the creative director behind all your

favorite brands. Rachel, welcome to the show. Knock, knock. Who's there? Thrive Market. Again, Thrive Market. We've been talking about these guys for a long time. One of our favorite brands, one of our favorite all-time partners. Lauren is laughing hysterically because we like to do, with Thrive Market, we love to jump in and do different transitions. It's just because I'm so obsessed with this brand and I literally use it every single week and it's all over my Instagram stories. I love doing a haul for you guys. I have a curated page. It's honestly my favorite partnership. This is one of the best brands too. It's not like they're not giving some big script and some big brief. They know their product and their service is so damn good. They know they don't need to script anything. We can just talk about it organically, give us a page, list our favorites, share it with the listeners, and boom,

everybody wins. Here's my three standout stars right now. They have a raw almond butter that is so good. It's all raw almonds. You know what you're getting. They've done all the research for you. And I love to do that on a cauliflower thin with mashed berries. So it's kind of like a PB&J. And then I also right now I'm loving their rose water. I like to use it after I do my skincare. You guys know I love a mist. I missed it all the way down to my tits. It's insane. You know, we've been talking about all the basics like Lauren listed, it's all on the site. But one thing that we haven't talked about in a long time is the supplements and vitamins. This is where I get all of my supplements and vitamins.

This is where Lauren gets hers because everything is sourced 25 to 50% below retail and they source the best ingredients. Supplements and vitamins can get really expensive. And I also want to know that whatever ones I'm buying, I'm getting the best of. So we listed it all out on our Thrive Market page, which is thrivemarket.com slash skinny. All of these products are on constant reorder every month, delivered straight to our door, and they're all 25 to 50% below retail. So you're saving time and you're saving money. So knock, knock, it's Thrive Market, 25% off. Go to thrivemarket.com slash skinny for 25% off plus free shipping on your first order that's thrivemarket.com slash skinny guys take advantage of this get the spicy arbiata sauce throw in the rose mist even some fiber gummies some

calm magnesium they got you covered and when you sign up with that link make sure you check out the curated page so you can check all of the items ingredients supplements vitamins all the things we've talked about thrivemarket.com slash skinny. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. This is the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Rachel Zellick is here. Guys, we are so excited. How many months pregnant are you? Eight, nine. I don't know. Pregnancy, I think it's 10 months. I think they lie to you. They lie. I'm very fucking pregnant. I'm going to pop in four weeks. Can you imagine me this pregnant at six in the morning? Did Lauren say that the politically correct way? Because I asked earlier, I said, how far along are you? Is that the way to say it?

I'm not fussy. I'm like, say it. I'm not politically correct. I'm like, say it how it is. She looks like the Unabomber this morning. She looks like Britney unabomber this morning she looks like britney sucka breakdown i need an umbrella and like no shoes at the gas yeah totally okay rachel so for those of you who don't know rachel can you give us a little bit of backstory on you and your journey of how you got here because i want to go back like way back. Yeah, I'll start from the beginning. So maybe like 2006, 2007, I was in college in Australia. I'm from Sydney, Australia, studying law and advertising.

And I basically would travel. I would travel every summer, like work like the shittest, weirdest, odd jobs. Maybe one of my favorites, I drove a forklift in a hardware store and save up my pennies and go to Europe and would just shop there like crazy. Forklift job only paid in pennies? Actually, it paid really fucking well because it just paid really well and it was great. One of my favorite jobs ever. And I would go to Europe, shop a lot, come back with all this dope shit. And there was nothing,

nothing like that in Australia at the time. There was the cheaper end of clothing that was just really shitty. And then there was Australian designers who were amazing, but they were really expensive, like three, $400 for a little dress or whatever. So me knowing nothing about fashion, just knowing that I couldn't, I was in college and I couldn't find cute shit that I wanted, started a clothing line and knew nothing, literally Googled like factories or what is a season? Like no idea. So that line was called Style Stalker and it took off really quickly. I think the first season we're in 150 stores in Australia, which 150 stores don't even exist anymore in Australia.

So hold on. So you just are Googling how to do this. How do you take it from that to it being in 150 states? Because I have an article pulled up right here and it says how this law school grad became the mastermind mastermind behind your favorite fashion brands well there are a couple so we started with style stalker and what was the question how did i just how did you take you you're googling this idea you take it from this idea and did you was what were tangible steps okay so i think the most practical tangible first step was getting a sales agent because it was a primarily wholesale business. And once that happened, it was crazy because we were, I literally had like 10 samples in a bag and would like show up for these meetings, just a kid not knowing what I was doing. And then the

sales agents, they, their job was obviously to go and sell it into boutiques and department stores and whatever. And then literally within the first season of having that sales agent, she placed it in 150 stores. And that was wild because you then have to pay for the production on that in advance. So literally my mom and my business partner's mom at the time took mortgages out on their house to front the money for production, which I would not do for my 21 year old kid. Like, bless. Thanks, mom. Like, I don't know.

It was crazy. I mean, I wouldn't have asked for that if the orders weren't guaranteed, but it's still a risky business. I mean, stores go out, go out of business like they don't pay like whatever. But luckily, you know, we paid it back pretty much straight away as soon as we delivered the goods. So that was, yeah, the first like big tangible step. And then I think beyond that, this is where influencers came into play because I was 20 and in the influencer space.

And we was bloggers then and no one even thought of it as an industry. I think it was 2006, 2007. Yeah. So it was like Rumi was. Rumi. I mean, Rumi still is is she's so major and iconic but she was she like was i feel like the first blogger absolutely she was the first one i discovered there was just a handful of girls it was such a like cool community then it wasn't no

one was thinking to monetize and it was so simple i was 20 they were like we're all the same age and i was like hey i make this dope shit do you like it I like what you do I'll send you some stuff and I think sort of accidentally I was probably one of the first people doing influencer seeding just very organically and naturally and always just kind of valued those relationships so you know to your earlier point I've kind of watched the space grow I've been friends with with who you know, to your earlier point, I've kind of watched the space grow. I've been friends with girls who became now the biggest influencers. I've been kind of friends with them from the beginning and watched them grow their business. So I really sort of understand things from their perspective. I want to know, so you've been here since 2006 was a long time. That's earlier than us. And I want to know what you've seen to work in the long run and what you've really seen

to not work. Because since you were early on with a lot of these creators, you've seen people really like skyrocketing. You've also seen people fall off. What do you think the formula there is? I think the formula is, it sounds so cheesy, but you have to enjoy it. And you have to be like coming at it from a place of passion and creativity. I think you have to be like coming out from a place of passion and creativity. I think you have to be filling a white space as well. Like now people ask me, oh, you know, micro-influencers, like how do I grow and da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, you can do certain things, but if you're not, the world doesn't need another cookie cutter fashion influencer. You've got to be doing something different and that's got to be

driven first and foremost I think from a place of fun and creativity like I said all the girls who started off there was no idea that they would make money out of it um it's intention I talk about this it's we're saying like I say intention but you're right it's like fun passion like you have to be in it for the right reasons it's so important it is and then it's the industry has changed so much so you need to be able to like refine that passion and refine that white space I mean I feel like we talked about Rumi she was pretty much for the first and then her influencer career in way in many ways people overtook her in that sense and then she launched RUMI she was one of the first influencers to really launch a brand that was a proper brand and really well thought out. And that

like launched her into a whole new phase of her career. So I think constantly reinventing yourself. I think if you want to work in a creative space and you don't love it and have fun with it, then you don't stand a chance. You can't study it. You can't just, it's not a formula, I would say. And what Rumi did really well, I think, playing off your point is she evolved. Exactly. Like you got to evolve. Like she evolved from this, you know, mega influencer that was sitting front row at Fashion Week to a mega brand. I mean, I'm obsessed with her clothes. I can't stop. So after Style Stalker, did you sell that business? And then what came next? So about, I had Style Stalker for about nine years, about six years into it, I moved over here

for two reasons. Firstly, my fiance, such an obnoxious word. Fiance. My baby daddy. Pete, let's call him Pete. Pete is a musician. We'll sideline the story a little. Pete is a musician and is super popular in Australia, not so much here. One day Elton John was in a record store in Sydney and heard his album playing and was obsessed with it, called the boys up, was like, come around for a cup of tea. And then next thing you know, he's like, you're moving to London. You're going to be managed by my manager.

So I was like... What are the chances? No big deal. Elton just called your baby daddy and was like, come over for a cup of tea. Yeah, come over for a cup of tea. And then literally within weeks, he was moved to London. And I was like, I can't buy him a Bentley. Elton John can buy him a Bentley. I was like 22, madly in love. Like we were so happy,

but I was like, Elton John stole my boyfriend. And that's possible in multiple arenas. Oh yeah. He tried. So basically Pete moved to London. I just started the business. The plan was that I would work on the business for maybe like a year to set it up in Sydney. And then I would move over there. London's an awesome city. I love it. But my business partner at the time was super controlling. I always like kind of joke that I, because I've been with Pete since I was 20, I avoided all these like shitty, abusive, male, like romantic relationships. But I looking back now see that my relationship with my business, my first business partner was probably like a textbook case, like emotionally abusive relationship. So she was super controlling and kept me from moving to London, essentially, for four years.

We did long distance between Sydney and London. And what is Pete's band, just for anyone? Oh, it's PNAU, P-N-A-U. Okay. But he also writes and produces Empire of the Sun, which you guys might know him. Oh, that small band that everybody has heard of? Yeah, that's bigger in the States. But PNAU's bigger in Australia and Europe.

So where was I at? Oh, yeah. He moved to London. We just wanted to live together. We did long distance for four years, which I did not recommend, but I'm so glad we made it through. And then LA was a place. He's in music. I'm in fashion.

For my business, the sales for the US weren't quite at the same level as Australia, but they were doubling season on season. And it just felt like a little baby that had no one looking after it. Plus so much of the influencer industry is here. And because I was the one who looked after the marketing, it just made sense. So we moved 2012 to LA and then we started another brand called the Jet Set Diaries. Everyone knows that brand too. I mean, iconic brand. I love the word iconic right now. Can you tell?

But it really is. I mean, I've worn that brand forever. That's so crazy. And I think back to our earlier point of what works in the influencer space, same in the design, creative business space. Style Stalker at that point had become, you know, you've got all these different people weighing in. You've got to repeat bestsellers, like 80% of your collections become repeats of bestsellers tricked out in

different ways. And there's like sales agents and just a million different people weighing in. But Jet Set Diaries, the first season outsold like maybe by double like a business that StyleStalker that was at that stage already six years because it literally just came from a space of creativity and like we knew how to do it. I knew like how to go through the motions, but there was no pressure on what it had to be. So, yeah, that did really well. And then, okay, so where it kind of went a bit shaky

is that we sold half of the company and the big mistake we made was to sell 50%. Because no one, I mean, honestly, it would almost have been better to sell 51% because then you just know you've got to like take it. Because when it's like a 50-50 thing, you hope... So you wish you sold 49%. No, I wish I sold...

Yeah, I wish I sold 49%. Well, a lot of people don't realize in a 50-50, every decision has to be mutual. So it's like if we're in the car together and you want to go left, like we both have to say we want to go left. And if not, you just continue going straight. And so you can't change or do anything new without mutually agreeing. It can be kind of like a handcuff situation. Absolutely. It was exhausting. And as I said, my business partner, my original business partner,

I mean, at times we were like best friends. She was like my sister, but there was also this like weird tension. So she would kind of try to play us all off against each other. Sorry, I sound so negative, but I feel like no one actually, it's probably the biggest problem in business is choosing the right partners and making that work. And I think that's something people don't really talk about. So eventually, maybe circa 2015, things were going like super well in the business, monetary wise, like creative wise, but I wasn't really that happy. I was having all these problems dealing with my partners. And I met up with Risa, who's the chief brand officer at Revolve. I didn't know, I sort of knew her from the industry. She's obviously a rad chick.

And I firstly just met up with her to get some advice. Like, hey, you seem to get along really well with your business partners. You guys are killing it. Like, what, do you have any advice on how I can improve this relationship or whatever but as I started to kind of describe what I was going through and some of the challenges she was like fuck that we've always been a huge fan we love what you do StyleStocker and JetSet Diaries were two of the best-selling brands on Revolve so like she's like fuck them come over and do something with us. So I exited that business in 2015 and started Majorelle with Revolve. Tell us about that brand because it is so cute. Honestly, I feel like it's the dream for a creative because as you guys probably know,

when you own the business, you get like 95% of your time is spent on boring shit like logistics and dealing with insurance and factories and all of that are you hearing that Lauren a lot of boring shit a lot of boring shit yeah but go on to the good part but then the good part like partnering up with Revolve it was just the creative stuff and they handle all of the back end. So dream, dream. It was awesome from that perspective. I also worked across the marketing. So like over evolve in in total. And that was sick because I had all these relationships. But I finally we had like money and means to do awesome shit.

So, yeah, that was great. And what's the process like of actually creating something? So if you're going to create, there's this really cute pink lace top that I'm obsessed with on there. How do you create that? Do you have an inspiration board at home? What's the process like? Yeah. So I collect so much inspiration. It's like a problem. It'll be like thousands and thousands of images. And then you kind of narrow that down into a creative brief you're looking for like fabrics prints inspo and then that then gets put into like silhouettes and ultimately you have to narrow down like it runs like oh you do like 60 pieces a month that must be so much I'm like no it's it's actually

difficult choosing my top 60 because there's just like all these ideas, but basically you have to narrow them down. You're kind of like matching up. Yeah. Fabric, silhouettes, vibes. And then do you want to get into the technical part of it? Yeah. So you'll then essentially present even within Revolve, even for their own brands, there's a buying team. So you'll present to the buyers, they'll decide what's going to go ahead and what's not going to go ahead into production. And then at that point, you do a tech pack. So this is where I'll have a designer come in because I didn't study fashion. From the start, I was like, I know what I'm good at and I'm going to make money and outsource the things that I'm not good at. And learning how to do like computer, the very technical illustrations and like the measurements and all of that

has never been my thing. So a designer will come in and sketch it all up, technically do what we call a tech pack, which is just like these insane measurements that go into, it's like a pattern, but on an Excel sheet, if that makes sense. That goes off to the factory. The factory will send back the first fit. You fit it. I'm super involved in that stage, even though I don't have that classical training. I think it's so important. I think it literally, a garment will come down to like half an inch. Like if it's good or not good, like you get so obsessed and then you'll give your comments sometimes it'll come back for a second or a third round of fit and then

orders get placed and it comes like i more want to know now like so since you were very early on and you had the benefit of obviously being able to launch at a time when retail i think maybe mattered a little bit more and also at a time when retail, I think maybe mattered a little bit more. Yeah, definitely. Also at a time when influencer collaborations were somewhat new. And so the impact was maybe, I don't want to say stronger, but I think it was definitely stronger. Yeah, it wasn't as saturated of a space. So it was easy to identify who could move the needle. If you were starting now without the connections you have, and you were getting into this world of fashion or any brand actually online, and you thinking about okay how am I going to launch this what's the strategy and also who am I going to launch this with like who am I going to collaborate with

like how do you kind of approach that now because I know you've also been on the client services side with click like how do you kind of look at the landscape and when you're consulting brands tell them like this is how you're going to have an impact here I think that when it comes to marketing everyone underestimates the product the product has to be dope to begin with like everyone doesn't need another clothing line of just like moderately cute dresses um i think it's difficult but i think new brands can still shine through but they have to be able to do something really unique and creative and then ultimately ultimately, like you would know, Lauren, like if you see something, influencers are amazing because they're like tastemakers. They're constantly on the lookout. It's their job to find good things

as well, interesting new things as well. So I think starting with a product that the world needs, it's not just like another... just slapping a label not slapping i mean revolve alone has 20 in-house brands now so the amount of product that's just there like what are you doing that's different and then i think look with influencer marketing now it's it's really tricky because you can be blunt you can be blunt it's pretty fucking hard to start out now. Be blunt. Yeah. I mean, it's pay for play now. I mean, relationships are important, but they'll only get you so far. And I think to launch something, depending on the scale, you need backing. You probably need a partner who can support you logistically and have money.

And how do you recommend someone that's an influencer that wants to start a brand to find the right partner? Is there a strategic formula for that? What have you seen work? What have you seen not work? Yeah, I think that you still need a means of distribution because it's pretty hard to still get customers to come onto your site and make a purchase. Ultimately, they're still going to want to buy something from Nordstrom or Revolve or something like that. So I think partnering with a big retailer, at least initially, is a good move. I think doing that as a licensing deal is a good move because you can kind of use that business's infrastructure and expertise for a

couple of years to build you up and then consider taking it in a more independent direction later on. So you don't recommend direct-to-consumer at first, you recommend partnering with a retailer and then possibly eventually. That's interesting. Well, I would say for me, I don't want to disagree, but I'll kind of disagree. I think that you're probably spot on with the majority of maybe traditional influencers that don't understand how to drive traffic to a website and have the financial backing to do that effectively. So I think that route in most cases, 99% of the cases, doing a licensing deal and partner

with Retail Smart. But if you have the ability to potentially partner with or know yourself how to drive direct to consumer traffic, I think it's an extremely smart strategy for people. Because you can control one, you have direct relationship with the customer to you have much higher margins. And three, you can kind of scale as you go. And you don't have to worry about placing, like you said earlier, massive orders to place into stores. But I think you have to know what you can be effective at or not. For people that don't have the backing of being able to run traffic, I think that's a very difficult model. Hold up. We need to talk about ritual. Okay. Guys, if you have not tried ritual and

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vegan certified, non-GMO, and there's no nasty colorants or synthetic fillers. Some crazy facts. 90% of women aren't getting enough D3 and over 70% of women aren't getting enough omega-3. So this has both in it. Also, you need magnesium, especially if you feel backed up. It really, really helps things to move through you. So magnesium is a real standout star. All right. Better health doesn't happen overnight. And right now, Ritual is offering all Skinny Confidential, him and her listeners, 10% off during the first three months. So fill in the gaps in your diet with Essential for Women. It's a small step that helps support a healthy foundation for your body. Visit ritual.com slash skinny to start your ritual today. That's 10% off your first three

months at ritual.com slash skinny. You guys are going to be addicted. You're going to be obsessed. Drop in my DMs and let me know what you think. I also would 100% agree with you depending on what the product is. If we're talking about a full blown line of clothing, that's so capital intensive on the front end. And you don't see the money back for at least a year it's just so hard to cash flow in that scenario partner up with someone if you have like for example amber filler up with her hair extension line to consumer direct like anything like that that's more focused and it's a smaller product range like in higher margins maybe on the skews exactly a summer fridays like launching with one product i think's fucking brilliant in that case i would 1000 agree

with you so we're talking more like large fashion exactly sorry i was talking like if you want to launch like a full-blown line like ariel something navy with nord. I don't think it would have been the same success if it was independent from the start. I agree. I 100% agree. I agree. What I'm hearing in this conversation so far is that you created and designed your future because you started out not knowing anything about anything and you basically taught yourself along the way so many people i'm noticing and i wanted to talk to you about this last night but we didn't get a chance and we couldn't talk this morning because it was too early um can't believe we're talking

now i know it's hard i'm like waiting for the monster to come out she's being so nice the monster saves for my yeah you won't see that side. That'll be for me later. Okay, perfect. That's why we've got you here. I'm seeing a lot of people think that they have to get all these credentials before they do something or they need to get to step A and then to B and then to C. They don't just sort of immerse themselves in it and fail over and over and over to learn. Can you sort of speak on that? Because I find that very,

I don't hear a lot of people talk about creating their own future like you have. Yeah, I think absolutely you just have to dive in and do it. And the first iteration is not going to be perfect. You learn really fucking quickly when it's your own money that you're losing. And I think, yeah, you just have to, A, you have to do it, and B, you can teach yourself anything. I think it's bullshit in the corporate world that people have these jobs that are so focused. Like not only do I work in influencer marketing, I only do the pre-sale decks.

I don't do the whole gamut of everything. It's like if you need to figure out how to find a factory or how to ship things or how to you can figure everything out if you're google now you've google exactly if you're like a reasonably intelligent person and you have access to google you can figure anything out so i literally have no time for people who are like oh but i haven't done this before but i don't know how to do this or i'm gonna like i'm gonna study and i'm gonna learn and i'm gonna like do this in five years it's like not the moments now just do it i mean everything that we've done ever has been i mean everything has been just by jumping in i think yeah we're

living in where people are getting fucked up now is they're like, okay, I'm going to study this. I got to go to school for this amount of time. I'm going to take this course. I'm going to read this book. I'm going to do like, you can study and learn all you want, but if you don't actually take action, all of it is useless. I want everyone to understand, like if you, no matter what you study, what degree you have, what course you've taken, what expertise you're back on, what credential, if you don't take massive action, it's all completely useless. Totally. I really think so. I kind of had the opposite career journey to most people in that the first nine years I worked for myself and started a business. And now I have what I would

describe as like my two dream jobs. We'll get into, we haven't even touched upon what I do at Click, but I think it should almost be compulsory for people to work for themselves for the first couple of years in the industry because no one's there to baby you. You have to figure shit out. If you fuck up, you lose your own money. You have an appreciation for what I've learned. And to me, it's so obvious because the first nine years, it was my money. So every decision you're like, okay, do I need this or this? Or you just think about the company's interests first and you make like smart, strategic financial decisions. You feel like a real impact if you fuck up.

You feel an impact and absolutely. And in the reverse, if you do something great, you feel the positive financial impact. Whereas I think in the corporate world, there's this really a disassociation between the money that you're spending on things. Also time is money. So you can't come in and spend, I don't know, 10 hours on something that really doesn't have any impact on the business. So I almost think it, yeah, it should be compulsory. Like go out and start a business. It doesn't have to succeed, but that's really the best training you could get. If you took the money that you would have spent on college and instead invested it in a business, I think you would learn so much more. And at the end of the, whatever, five years, however long people spend in college.

You know who actually did that? We were talking about him earlier, Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss, yeah. He took like what it would cost him to go to school. I don't know. Yeah. And he took that money and just use it to practice investing with the assumption that he would lose all of it, but he would learn as much doing that as he would by actually going to school. Yeah. I think that guy, obviously. I feel like I've learned more podcasting than I did in all my years. Oh, all the people you speak to, like, I mean, put on a podcast. I always say my mentors are Tim Ferriss, Gary Vee, Ed Milet, The Balanced Blonde, because you have access to them now. There's really no excuse.

What are, and you know, this is one of my favorite subjects. What are your productivity hacks? What do you do to be super productive? Because you do get a lot done and you're eight months pregnant and you're still hustling. Can you share with us some tips, some hacks? What do you do to be super productive? Because you do get a lot done and you're eight months pregnant and you're still hustling. Can you share with us some tips, some hacks? Well, I love the productivity cube that I discovered through you. I think the biggest thing about productivity is focus. So literally put your phone in a drawer, lock it up, put it on airplane mode and use that cube. I use it alongside this productivity journal. I think it's just called the productivity journal. And basically it's like the Pomodoro method where you, I think you guys have talked about that before, right? Not the journal. Tell us about

the journal. Oh, so the journal's just laid out. It forces you to set seven, just seven things you're going to do for the day in order of priority. So if you just got one thing done for the day, it would be a success. And then after that, the next three things, and then beyond that, I think you get four things. And then you have these little bubbles that you fill in. So you estimate, okay, I think you could tackle it either way. I need to finish this report. I think it's going to take me an hour and a half. So you give yourself like three bubbles and then you just kind of like track it in 30 minute blocks or you can do it the other way maybe if it's a bigger project hey I'm writing this novel I want to spend an hour on it each day you can like allow yourself an hour each day um and then just fill out the little bubbles and then and filling out the

little bubble is so satisfying so satisfying. It literally gets me horny. Oh my God, same. And if you beat, you're like, oh, I estimated this was going to take an hour and a half and it took an hour. You're just like orgasmic. Michael's like joking on the screen. I got to look into that journal.

I don't think I've seen it. Yeah. What do you do to set yourself up for a successful morning? Do you know what? I'm not really a morning routine person night routine oh no morning i'm literally just i have so much energy in the morning that i'm like out i'm out the door in like 10 minutes and now you're talking my language yeah this is like michael i have to i just want to get to work like i don't i have to fill in a thousand bubbles before i talk i get it and i feel feel like weird because I'm obviously also a huge Tim Ferriss fan.

And I feel like that's the number one thing he asks all his guests. Like, what's your morning routine? I'm like, I don't I just like get up, throw something on, do my makeup in the car, out the door. Like, I just want to get into that's your routine, right? Like, you don't have to. I feel like you don't have to have a routine. Not everybody has to have this formulaic thing. OK, i have to have it or i'll be a complete bitch you

know don't don't fuck with my routine you know what's gonna happen so tell us about click just like wrap it up about how you also are the creative director of this clothing brand but you also are i want to say you you can describe it than I, you're the head of the influencer agency at Click. Yeah. So we have essentially, Click is the parent company of Who What Wear. Used to be Miner, Main and Birdie, but we recently sold those off. Under that umbrella, I run an influencer marketing agency.

So when did it start? About two years ago. So do you still work in this office? Yeah, just downstairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you come here every day. Yeah.

I was saying, I was so sad that you guys left this floor because now there's a bunch of men from Pluto TV that are just disgusting in the bathroom. They're just in there all the time. I hope they listen to this podcast and hear this and clean themselves up. Clean your act up, Pluto. Actually, it was so funny when we're on this floor because I'm doing deals all day with DBA and I would bump into them in the bathroom. I'd be like, halfway through a deal, I'd be like, yo, you like owe me an email. Like what's going to,

yeah, like, come on, you know, you're giving me such bad anxiety. I'd be like, I wouldn't go to the bathroom. I'd hold it. I'd always be like, come on, like, you know, you're going to make this work for me. Yeah, so I'm just downstairs. And essentially, it's a full-service influencer marketing agency. So as I said, just because I've been in the space, I've been in the space since the beginning and I've been friends with all the influencers. So I've really seen everything through their eyes. But I've always been on the brand side. So I equally understand the brand's perspective.

They need to get ROI. They need to hit certain goals. And always with my friends who'd be like, oh, I don't understand why the brand's doing this and like, I almost see my main job as a translator between the two. I can help influencers to understand like why the brands are asking for what they're asking for and help them to clarify like, hey, what are your goals? Because the goals are so different for every campaign, right? Well, a lot of influencers fuck up bad because they look at it as like, this is a sponsor. It's

like, no, no, no. This is, it's called brand partnerships. This is a partner. So that means that needs to like, you need to be on the receiving end of a finance, right? Like you're making money for creating content and sharing with your audience. But the other end, like the brand needs to see a direct benefit to that or else like, why are they paying you? Absolutely. People don't understand that. The brand is your client. It's, it's a really bizarre thing. That's like the fundamental miss. I think with a lot of influencers is you're an influencer, you're in a client services business. You know know you need to service that and those clients talk to each other absolutely yeah oh yeah i think every agency

or every person has their like blacklist and so when influencers if you're listening and you're fucking up with brands or you're not you're not putting time into that partnership like it's not like that's the only ancillary brand that's going to know other brands are going to know and you're going to be listed on absolutely and i think I think the way the marketplace, I mean, the influencer marketplace, like any other marketplace, it's supply and demand, right? And I think in the past, influencers obviously, and even up until now, have a lot of power because they just held the power in terms of the supply. There weren't as many like really good ones. And now there are so many, so many great influencers, so many good ones, so many bad ones, just so many influencers out there.

I think we'll start, we'll see prices go up maybe still for another like year or two, but then just like any marketplace, I think we're going to see. It's going to stabilize. It's going to stabilize and come down, especially as brands start to understand the analytics behind it more and are not making emotional decisions just about like a oh i've followed so and so for five years i want her okay well i can show you this other influencer who has like way better stats across the board has a lookalike audience like if a brand stop buying on like a macro number and start actually buying on like translation and understanding who has engagement is going to change a little bit yeah um i mean so many metrics that they need to understand i'm like

a total nerd because i can get way into like all the metrics behind it but let's talk about conversion because i think for a while brands were looking at the number on people's Instagram following. Like they were just looking if you had a million plus, like you're in. I'm seeing a huge shift with that. I'm seeing brands want to really look at people's engagement and comments. Can you sort of speak on that? Yeah, I agree. I think at first it was just following. Then the last year or two, engagement has been the buzzword, but I think that's also really misunderstood. That's a lot of old school marketers, maybe people in their 40s, 50s, who were just desperate to cling onto one metric to represent everything. So they wanted the engagement rate to represent your ability to convert how actually engaged your

audience was, how like just, just sum up basically your influence in one number. Unfortunately, it can't do that. Like you would see people engage. If you write, if you throw up something controversial, you're going to get a ton of engagement. That's not necessarily valuable engagement for a brand. It's not like, what are the product benefits of the thing that you're advertising? So the engagement rate is important to look at, but amongst a number of other things, I think people are missing the most important thing about engagement rate. Literally no one talks about this and it's like the 101, is that the engagement rate drives the algorithm for impressions. So you could have one influencer with a million followers who's getting like 5,000 eyeballs

on a piece of content. And you could have another influencer who, and I don't know the exact algorithm, but it's driven by engagement. You could have another influencer with a million followers who's getting 750,000 eyeballs on a piece of content. So that's like obviously like a huge difference and definitely something marketers should be looking at because follower doesn't really mean anything. It's how many people actually saw the piece of content. I agree. And then to your point, conversion. I agree. from the shonky kind of Instagram browser, I would switch to my Amazon app

and order it through there. Or how often do you see something and then send yourself an email reminder to go look at it later? Or how often do you drive by a billboard or open a magazine and you don't even know you're being influenced? Here's what I talk about.

Yeah, it's hard to sort of find the convert. I can see what you're saying. Or how often do you see it on three influencers? And it might be the first one who maybe influenced you the most, but even if you get that direct tracking, it's off the third one and numbers one and two don't get any credit for that purchase. So I think brands are super interested in conversion. I think up until now, it's been really hard to measure, but with the introduction of Instagram shopping, like the checkout system, and now I think it was just yesterday or the day before they introduced that for influencers as well as brands, I think we'll start to see more transparency there. You know what? It's funny

because obviously doing the Dear Media thing and talking to brands in this space, we're having a lot of the same conversation. What the issue is, and we were talking a little bit about this, like someone like me that comes from banner advertising or DR, we were actually running traffic to a specific ad and then measuring the click through from that ad to a landing page and then to a checkout. Like people in the advertising space have gotten hung up on the metrics because that was their old formula. You could measure that like a very strict funnel. Yes. But when you're working with podcasters or influencers and they're talking about it on the show, like it's not like just a coupon code just because it's mentioned. It may not be used.

Like MeUndies is a perfect example. Like all of us have heard of MeUndies. Everybody's heard of Square. Everybody's heard of, you know, all of these different platforms. It doesn't necessarily. Four Sigmatic. Four Sigmatic. Yeah, the best.

The best. Maybe I'll put a Four Sigmatic in the show. But all of these companies, like you know about them, you're aware of them, but It doesn't necessarily... Four Sigmatic. Four Sigmatic. Yeah. The best. The best. Maybe I'll put a Four Sigmatic in the show. But all of these companies, you know about them, you're aware of them, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use that exact code at that exact time. Exactly. And so brands need to understand it's not just DR, it's a lot more. Absolutely. And it's cumulative. The fact that I've heard about Four Sigmatic on your podcast, on Tim Ferriss' podcast, I might also just remember to pick that up when I'm at Whole Foods and no one's getting any kind of online credit for that. Those guys are extremely smart with their marketing because they don't get caught up in that whole world of all that bullshit engagement.

It's very like long form advertising, which is why it's crushing. Exactly. And it's a really unpopular thing. But I often have to tell clients, you have to look at overall lift in sales as well. At Revolve, when we would do the trips, one of the best ways we could measure was literally to look at a product. So say, Lauren, you wore that pink lacy top. We would look at stock levels on that product for five days before and five days after and see that product lift. And it wasn't through a tracking link. It wasn't, there could have been something else going on, but we would look at like overall sales lifts,

overall product lift. And, you know, part of it, you have to take that leap of faith and like, look where that business is. You know what it is? Cause I've been beating up influencers a little bit, but it's because agencies and brands are lazy and they don't, and they want a simple number with a simple thing. They don't want to go in and actually look at a specific product and measure product because it makes more work for them. But that's the only way to correlate it all. You have to do that. They're lazy. And I think they're scared.

What I've learned is with a lot of big corporations, so serious influencer money is coming from bigger, more established corporations. And there are just so many layers of people in between who don't feel empowered to roll the dice and like take a chance and like look at it holistically. They're also, they need to get it down to one or two numbers to put into a report that then gets passed like up the ladder. So I think, yeah, I think that the whole industry is a little bit skewed by the obsession on the idea that you're going to funnel everything down into like one or two numbers. The funny thing is about those agencies, though, they're still the ones that are doing TV commercials that don't work and banner, you know, like billboards and print magazines.

But they've told themselves for the last 60 years, like that works. And so they'll still do that. But then at the same time, they'll question a new media that's obviously crushing and working, but they'll question that. Yeah, that's what I find so bizarre, because how do they measure a billboard to that degree? But they want the most insane amount of trackability on an influencer. They don't. It's crazy.

I would love to know your opinion on different mediums. Like, where do you see attention going in the future? I mean, I love podcasts. I think this is something you talk about is that this time is the ultimate commodity these days. And the fact that you can listen to a podcast while you drive, while you do your makeup, you know, it's essentially giving people back the gift of time. So I think podcasts are really important, but I also see the space becoming saturated really quickly.

I think with everything that Instagram's implementing, it's really cementing itself as here to stay, right? They almost introduce a new product to take on every single competitor. They put stories, booted out Snapchat. I think with the introduction of shopping, it really concretes itself as like a platform, like a Google that's like here to stay. Obviously for the next generation, YouTube is such a big space. And then I don't know, I think there's all these other, you know, like TikTok's on the rise now. There are these other things that will come and go and I think as a brand you should engage with them in a small way and really creatively like I saw

brands typically have a really hard time working with Snapchat it's not like set up to it's work with influencers as easily as say like an Instagram but Ikea did a really interesting campaign with these YouTubers they're called likefruit. They're like this comedy YouTube duo. And they really had to, Ikea had to partner with Snapchat to build out this gaming functionality where it was almost like a choose your own adventure of like decorating your dorm room college. So I think it's definitely good to play with those new platforms but i think podcasts instagram are here to stay i'm a little bit i want to know what you guys think about like blogs i know everyone's like own your email list own your blog i just think still

think it's so hard to get people there i'll tell well yeah well i think it's hard to get people anywhere right like what i what i always firmly believe in whether it's youtube podcasts instagram blogs emails is like talent rises to the top right like if you have the chops to use any of those mediums and reach an audience effectively like you will you will be seen where people get saturated it's like maybe they're kind of like phoning it in or half-assed or maybe they just don't have the talent to be on a medium. And so that becomes very difficult to, and effectively, but we know, like, I'll just shout out our friend, like, her name is Katie. She has a blog and a brand called Wellness Mama. She has one of the most powerful email lists ever. Like she is consistently driving traffic

for massive brands like Thrive and Four Sigmatic, top affiliate. If you looked at her on socials, she's got a couple hundred thousand followers. She's doing great. But that blog and that email newsletter, because they've done it so well and they understand the format and they serve that audience, it's very effective. Now, somebody that's like, hey, I'm just going to start a blog and create a half-assed newsletter, that's not going to move the needle. So I think you really have to plant your flag on like what you're going to be effective at and what you're going to spend your time.

Also what I'm hearing, I feel like it has to be a resource. I think it sounds like this- She's a full resource. It's a full resource. I even think Skinny Confidential, it's a resource versus pure inspiration. I think the blogs that are just inspirational,

eh, am I going to do that? Gotta have value. Gotta have value. Gotta have value. It can't be, it can't constantly be. Goes back to time. Don't waste anyone's time. Don't waste anyone's time. And it can't constantly be a push.

So many creators are like, push, like look at my product, look at my brand, look at my email. It's like you're pushing something. Or look what I'm wearing. Look at me. Look at what I'm eating. Look at what I'm doing.

Look at my nail color. No, what are the, what is the value for the audience to take away and actually do in their own life? There's got to be a resource. I agree. I also think that is probably the number one way in which most influencers go wrong. Instead of this look at me mentality, it should be, how can I serve you, my audience? It's the number one mistake. And now I've been on both sides, but being on the Dear Media side, when podcasters come and said, hey, I want to do this. How am I going to make money? It's like the answer. And I've said this 50 times. The question that you should be asking is,

how am I going to serve valuable content to my audience? How can I serve my audience and how can I bring them value? It should be audience first, then yourself, then brand last. And I always say that because if you do it that way, everyone's going to get a benefit. But if it's just pushing something for yourself, people are going to be turned off. I say this all the time, but I just think it's really important to reiterate. I did not make $1 for three years, not $1 in my bank account. I did it every day for seven days a week. Now, you can't go into it looking for money. It's like going into a relationship. You have to really refine the intention.

Absolutely. And I ran a business for nine years. I put myself on minimum wage to reinvest the money back into the business to resist taking outside money for as long as possible. Basically was on minimum wage for nine years. Money is an element. It's not the foundation. No. Money is an element. It's not the foundation. No.

It's an element. Exactly. And I think that's ultimately where entrepreneurs thrive because they're prepared to take that risk and they don't want that immediate payoff. I don't know if I've ever even said this on this podcast, but to this day, I've not taken a single penny in salary from Dear Media. Not one. Not one dollar. And I'm the CEO of the company and I operate it every single day and I'm here nine to six every day. And I still take your pennies from you. Yeah. But not one. Getting it from all angles. Not one dollar. Not my problem. Not one dollar out of this company. I put it all back in, give it to the team to build the company.

And I think people should understand the intention here is to build this amazing platform and sacrifices need to be made to be able to do that and i think that's where it comes back to coming from a place of passion and creativity because you couldn't come in if you hated it you couldn't come in here and not make money fuck no no you just genuinely enjoy it drives you you know there's an end goal where you're going to make a lot of money in the end but you're prepared to sacrifice in the interim book resource podcast that you can recommend to our audience that has been life-changing for you. Oh, life-changing. That's a big one. Could be life-changing in business. Do you know what? Oh, 12 hours in 12 weeks. I've just read this book that all my mom

friends swear by to get your kid to sleep for 12 hours. I can't vouch for it yet. Sign me up. But everyone says that works. So that probably hopefully will be life changing. I don't know. I've also swung back to reading fiction again. I think it's, I'm so, I'm so similar to you guys.

I'm like reading all these like business books, productivity books, et cetera. And then I think there's this part of your brain that also needs to just be subconsciously stimulated. So the last book I read, I reread Catcher in the Rye. And I'm like- Great book. It's a fucking great book. Why don't I ever do this? Nostalgic. So nostalgic. I'm going to come up tomorrow morning and on our dining room table is going to be Catcher in the Rye from him. I know him so well. He's already like it. I know him so well. It's on our bookshelf. You know, but I think that's smart.

Don't even have to wait for Amazon Prime. It's there. It's smart though, because I think, you know, we like, we like to read some of those books too, but I am constantly reading fiction because you need to disconnect and you still learn stuff from fiction books. I think you learn so much. You just don't even realize. You also need to like, you need to be able to sit at a dinner party and be an interesting person. Not only business, business, business, business. Like that, I don't know, I think abstract ideas come into play in business in the most unexpected ways. So I'm always, I'm just such, I just love people. I love like talking to anyone and everyone. I

think you learn so much from different people and different experiences that you do all absorb and kind of mix it up into your own. The most attractive people to me are the ones that you think you're getting something and then they'll just randomly bring up a topic or a subject that you'd be like, how the hell do you know about that? And it's, you know, then you feel dumb for thinking that they wouldn't know that. But that's so interesting when you just think you're gonna get something and then they just completely something else i love anyone who knows about something specific it doesn't matter if it's like i just say you just got to be the best at what you do doesn't matter if you are

on wall street or you run a laundromat like if you know the ins and outs of like running a laundromat and like the chemicals that go into that and like the best way to get the stain out. I'm just fascinated by that. So you and Michael should have a conversation about salts after this. He can tell you all about salt. I did. I get stains out. I read a book one time only about the history of salt in the world. Yeah, I love it. Salt used to be worth more than gold. I believe that. That was like if you had salt on the table, you were rich. Give me anything. Just don't give me boring. Where can everyone find you?

Pimp yourself out. Probably easiest places on Instagram. Just Rachel Zelik, R-A-C-H-E-L-Z-E-I. And we'll leave it in the show notes. You are hilarious to follow on Instagram story too. I am. Yeah. Yeah.

Great follow. And website? No. No, just Instagram at Rachel Zelik. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Great follow. And website? No. No. Just Instagram at Rachel Zalek. I like it. Yeah. Maybe I need to start a blog. I don't know. Maybe. A resource. We'll have to do a round table with Rumi.

For sure. That'd be a good one. We love getting very specific. We'll get very, very specific. We don't know if we need Michael on this episode. We don't need to hear his thoughts on salt. Also, I feel like you guys can pick my brains on anything pregnancy related because it's Have that baby. I'm an open book.

And then take us to Australia. Yeah. And then we can pick your brain about babies. Exactly. Michael will pick your brain. Lock her down. Thank you for coming on. Thanks, babe.

Hey, hey, hope you guys love that interview. If you want to win some cute pink TSC stickers, leave your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram at the skinny confidential and someone from the team will slide into your DMs and send you guys some. They're so fun to decorate your notebook or your laptop or even your phone or your hydro flask. They're cute. Anyway, as always, we appreciate your attention and we'll see you next time. This episode was brought to you by Thrive Market. Thrive Market is your one-stop shop

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