The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - The Real Keto Diet, Intermittent Fasting, & Longevity with Primal Kitchen's Founder Mark Sisson

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

#208: On this episode we sit down with Mark Sisson. Mark is an American fitness author, food blogger, and a former distance runner, triathlete and Ironman competitor. He is also the founder of Primal Kitchen and the writer behind the wildly popular blog Mark's Daily Apple. On this episode we sit down with Mark to discuss The Keto Diet, Intermittent Fasting, & Longevity.  To connect with Mark Sisson click HERE To learn more about Primal Kitchen click HERE (be sure to listen to this episode for a Primal Kitchen Giveaway!) To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens If it’s time  (and it is) to focus on your health and feel your best, getting into a daily routine with Athletic Greens really will be the single best thing you can do for ​yourself this year. We have a special offer is you jump over to www.athleticgreens.com/skinny ​and claim our special offer today. Get 20 FREE travel packs valued at $79 with your first purchase. This episode is brought to you by FOUR SIGMATIC We have been drinking this company's mushroom-infused elixirs and coffees for over a year now. When we need a break from coffee but still need that extra morning jolt and focus the Mushroom Coffee with Lion's Mane and Chaga is the way to go. Lauryn also drinks the Mushroom Matcha which is a green tea designed as a coffee alternative for those of you who want to cut back on caffeine without losing focus and cognitive boosts. This stuff doesn't actually taste like mushrooms, it's delicious. All of these blends have a ton of nutrients and amino acids to give you balanced energy without the jitters. To try FOUR SIGMATIC products go to foursigmatic.com/skinny and use promo code SKINNY for 15% off all products. This episode is brought to you by Tradesy. Tradesy is the hottest online luxury fashion resale marketplace, where you’ll get the styles you can’t live without – all on your own terms, and all at up to 90% off. Forget the overpriced pieces you’ll find in stores, forget the lines. Visit Tradesy.com to save fifty dollars on your very first Tradesy purchase when it’s four-hundred dollars or more. Use code SKINNY at checkout to redeem this offer.  Produced by Dear Media  

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. caffeine intake. Four Sigmatic has the blends for you. They're all delicious. Just open a pack and add to hot water. They don't taste like mushrooms. And like always, we have a special offer just for the him and her listeners. Go to foursigmatic.com forward slash skinny and enter promo code skinny at checkout for 15% off your entire order. Guys, this is an extra special episode because Primal Kitchen has offered to give away some major swag. So they're going to give three of you, they're going to pick three people to win a basket. Okay. And there's $300 worth of Primal Kitchen goodies. I saw the basket. It's major. It's full of everything. You're going to get the ketchup, the lemon turmeric dressing, all different kinds of stuff. Okay. You're going to like pimp out your kitchen. All you have to do

is tell me your favorite Primal Kitchen product on my latest Instagram, my latest Instagram, at The Skinny Confidential, and then follow at Primal Kitchen Foods. Super easy, and we'll pick three of you to win some Primal Kitchen swag. All right, let's get into the episode. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now

Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Like I'll take you back, you know, a couple of million years where our brains are wired to overeat. Now that's, you know, that's problematic today because there's access to so much food. But in the absence of food, when a brain is wired to overeat, now we're also wired to convert the excess energy from having overeaten into a fuel that we get to carry around with us on our bodies. It's so cool if you think about it, we can convert energy into a fuel that we can carry right over the center of gravity, right over the hips. You know, we're bipedal

organisms. We stand upright. So to load the fat, this fuel, onto our hips and our thighs and our butt is beautiful design. It's perfect. Bonjour, bonjour, comment ça va, everybody? That's my friend. I don't have a very good French accent. We are back from France, back in the saddle, back on the mic. That clip was from our guest of the show today, Mark Sisson. On this episode, we're talking all things wellness, primal kitchen, keto, intermittent fasting for all you health freaks out there. Guys, welcome back. It's been a long time since we've been on the mic we have not been on the mic for three and a half weeks which was a nice break because sometimes michael and i fight bts or on the mic sometimes all the time guys it's it's been interesting because we've

been doing interviews ever since we got back hit the ground running a little bit jet lag and i'll say lauren i missed the microphone and also i was a little bit rusty. And if some of those interviews in the beginning, hopefully people can't decipher which ones, but it's good to be back. Good to be back. You're like ready. I'm fucking fired up. Taylor, is your mic on? I bet it's not on. Nope. It's not on because you're doing an intro. Turn it on because I need to talk to you again. Lauren, how are you doing? It feels good to be back. I'm doing great. We had such a fun time in France and Italy. We ate so much food. I'm definitely five pounds heavier. I have travel pimples. But other than that, I'm relaxed. I'm rejuvenated. I'm a little fucking jet lagged though. Not too bad. Well, I think that's probably why we have

so much energy. Guys, I am bronzed up. I'm looking good. A lot of people saying, wow, look at that tan. And I said, yep, here we go. You look like Magda from Something About Mary. Like you guys are twins. You laid out in the sun so bad. I did everything that you said not to do. And I feel pretty good. He did not listen to me. The hyperpigmentation was so real this trip. My skin is under like some scrutiny right now. It is hyperpigmentation, brown spots, travel pimples. If you guys want to know what I'm doing for my travel pimples, you can to the skinny confidential and google the pimple cure i'm using this clay it's like this three ingredient ingredient clay that's insane um but yeah it's it's bleak i was out there baking like a snake on a rock you don't wear sunscreen you're wrong i do i do what kind um hampton sun

i don't know if it no for the face though i Dr. Dennis Gross, but for the body, Hampton Sun. And also there's this tattoo sunscreen. It's like a deodorant. I got to look it up what I wear, but I put that on the tattoo. You know what my pet peeve is, Taylor? What is your pet peeve? It's when... Oh, your mic's on now.

Good. Yeah, good. It's when Michael asked me to apply sunscreen to his back. I'm not... Does he ask you to apply sunscreen to any other part of his body? No, because I don't use sunscreen any other part of his body? No, because I don't use sunscreen on weird parts of my body. You freak. Yeah. Taylor, not everyone has razor burn and needs sunscreen down there. Taylor, did you miss us? What happened while we

were gone? Anything interesting? Nothing too interesting. It was kind of business as usual, which is okay. I'm okay with that completely. Taylor, anything but business as usual. Taylor, I have to tell you, we were at our friend Ingrid's house and we were telling your stories like no tomorrow. We were telling all different kinds of stories about you that you've told us and they, their jaws were on the floor. Good. That's what it's about. That's what it's about. You have to, you have to shock some people to make them realize. They were shocked. They said, I didn't even know things like this existed oh it does and they do unfortunately yeah so and listen we came back everything was still running nothing fell apart uh and i think you know i was talking to my team here at dear media and i was

and i was saying you know a lot of people can build businesses i think a business anything that brings an income but building a company is a different thing and i'm so proud of my team because i was able to leave for almost three weeks which is very rare rare for me and come back. And the ship is running smoother. And if it just goes to show, they don't even really need me. Don't even really tell you guys. I don't even really need me here. Throw them off the island. Throw them off the island.

We're building a company, people. That's how it's done. You are fired up. What did you have today? I'm just excited. I'm crack cocaine. I think I'm in ketosis. I think I, after talking to Mark, I think I'm in ketosis.

Is that what it's called? Ketosis. Ketosis. Guys, we have an exciting episode today. We save this one for a solo week with one of the biggest powerhouses in the condiment space, as well as the wellness space, a very serious entrepreneur, very serious wellness guru. He's also salt and peppery.

Like he's like a hot, like he's a hot commodity. Guys, Mark Sisson, he has been blogging, I believe, since 2006 on Mark's Daily Apple. From there started the very famous brand that we all know and love now. Primal Kitchens has some of our favorite dressings. Lauren, which one's your favorite? Get the lemon turmeric, you guys. Just trust me. Have it on hand.

It's great to add your own dressing to any salad that you postmates or order for lunch. The lemon turmeric is the shit. He's an American fitness author, food blogger, former distance runner, triathlete, and Ironman competitor. And like I said, launched the massively successful Primal Kitchens brand. Guys, with that, let's pick this guy's brain. Mark Sisson, welcome to the podcast. Before we dive into that, I'm going to tell you about the green powder I take. So I feel like I get asked this a lot on DMs of what kind of green powder do you take? Green powder for me, it's a thing. It's always been a thing because I feel like you're not going to get all the nutrients that you need through just eating food, especially when I'm

traveling. I'm jet lagged. I'm tired. So recently I went to France and I took 20 packets of athletic greens with me. And I initially was introduced to athletic greens by Tim Ferriss, who I'm a huge fan of. He raved about them. I tried them. I fell in love with them. I actually tried them at home first and put them in my smoothie. Super easy. It tastes good. You're getting all your vitamins, your nutrients. It's efficient, guys. I love that word. Anyway, so while I was traveling, I obviously didn't have time to make an entire smoothie because we were constantly on the go. You know Michael's dragging me around like no tomorrow. So what I did is I did ice and water in the morning. I did it with my coffee. I just poured a little pack in my water and stirred it

up and gulped it down. Then I felt really good about myself when I was stuffing my face with pasta and chocolate croissants. If you're interested in the specifics of Athletic Greens, basically it's 75 proven vitamin minerals and whole food sourced ingredients, and it's going to help support your body's nutritional needs. I mean, this is great that you just get this in a packet and then you can go. So like I said, it's an all-in-one daily nutritional insurance to support your energy levels, immunity, gut health, which is huge for me, and hormonal systems. And it also promotes healthy aging, which we love. So it keeps you nice and youthful.

All right. If it's time to focus on your health and feel your best, getting into a daily routine with Athletic Greens really will be the single best thing you can do for yourself this year. Why not just try it? Just jump over to athleticgreens.com slash skinny and claim our special offer today. So you're going to get 20 free travel packets valued at $79 with your first purchase. That's athleticgreens.com slash skinny. Start your day right and good things will follow. Here's the deal, guys. If you're going on vacation, the travel packets are amazing. Just throw them in your carry-on, hop on the airplane, and gulp it down every day, and you're good to go. Let's get back into the episode with Mark. This is The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

Mark, you've been a busy guy last couple of years. Really busy guy. To say the least. What's going on now? Now I'm, you know, I sold Primal Kitchen to Kraft Heinz in January. I have a two-year consulting agreement with them. So I'm still the face of the brand. I'm having a blast doing the things that I always liked to do as the head of a company and now not doing the things that I don't have to do, you know, the HR, the operations, the finance, all this, the personal guarantees, you know, all the things that keep, keep people up at night. So now I'm just doing, you know,

we're inventing new products and coming up with new product ideas and doing tastings and adjustments and things like that. And then I'm going on the road a lot, meeting customers, meeting with brokers. I've had the pleasure of interacting with some of the board members of Kraft Heinz and kind of taking a real serious global look at the future of food, which I find really exciting. That must be interesting. Yeah, very interesting. And I'm looking for the next thing. I'm looking for the next opportunity because I'm not going to retire. Guy like you doesn't slow down. No, no.

So I mean, I'm sure the majority of this audience is, I'm sure is familiar with your products and Primal Kitchen. But for those that are unfamiliar with you and your story, can we get a little bit of like brief background? Sure. I don't know if I can be brief. It's a story that starts when I was 12, but I've always been into health and fitness. I was an endurance athlete when I was younger,

mostly because I couldn't do anything else. I was a scrawny teen and I was able to run distance. I couldn't play baseball, basketball, football, or any of the team sports. So I wound up gravitating toward endurance athletics. I was very interested in performance at that level and how I could improve my performance. So I started looking at nutrition very early on, partly to figure out how I could be a faster runner, but also was interested in longevity and health and wellness. And at a very early age, started to read research and read a lot of books on the topic. And as my running and triathlon career wound down, I had a fairly successful career, but I was overtrained and I started getting injuries and I started getting illnesses and itises and all sorts of things that were compromising my performance and my health in

general. So I had to retire from elite level competition and I rededicated myself to looking at ways in which I could be that strong, lean, fit, happy, healthy, productive individual without all of the struggle and sacrifice and pain and suffering. That led me to investigating what I call a life way that eventually became the primal blueprint. But it looked at evolutionary science and genetic science and how we can affect our health on a minute by minute basis based on how we tell our genes to operate. We can switch genes on or off every minute of every day based on signals we give the genes. Can you give me like a brief example of that? Yeah. So, you know, lifting weights would prompt your genes to respond by increasing muscle size and mass and strength and power. Cutting out carbohydrates will prompt your genes to become

better at burning fat and create a whole fat burning machinery within your body that would not otherwise be called upon. In the absence of, if you over-consume food or carbohydrate, your genes will be switched on to store a lot of fat because that's what we're programmed to do. So my challenge has been to identify these hidden genetic switches that we all have and then investigate ways in which we can turn them on or off almost at will and largely through our behaviors. So not just food, but types of movement. So I was a skinny runner because I chose that activity, and that caused me to lose muscle mass in my upper body and become an endurance beast and increase my VO2 max. Had I elected to go in the gym and lift more weights, I would have been 30 or 40 pounds heavier, and I would have maybe chosen

a different sport. All of this is available based on the signals that I chose to give my body, the inputs I gave my body. Now it goes beyond just diet and exercise. You can talk about getting enough sleep. You can talk about how sun exposure can increase vitamin D and improve your immune system. That's all happening at the level of gene expression. And so every scientific study that looks at some change, some variable that we introduce in lifestyle or in the laboratory, now it all comes down to what is happening at the level of gene expression. Why is the outcome from that experiment what it is, it's always because of one or more genes being turned on or off as a result of it. It's really exciting because what it does is it empowers people

to take responsibility for their health and their lives, right? And I think people want that. I mean, for a long time, I was a little bit cynical and I thought, well, people want to, you know, they want the excuse that, well, my parents gave me this set of genes and I'm doomed to being overweight or I'm doomed to being, you know, a weakling or I'm doomed to getting heart disease in my forties because my uncle and my dad both did. And none of that is true. Genes are not destiny. They're just sort of a roadmap that kind of helps you guide choices that you make in your life. And so my main focus as an educator has been to just make people aware of the choices that are available and what the outcomes might be by engaging in those choices. So I want to know about how you used to be on TV. And the reason I want to know

about this is because I feel like you were content marketing for what you're doing now when you were on television. And maybe you didn't know it or you did know it, but you were almost doing social media without social media being around, it seems like. Can you go back to when you were on television? Sure. So in the early part of, well, like mid-1990s, I think in 96, I started a supplement company. And that was an offshoot of my interest in performance, but like mid 1990s, I think in 96, I started a supplement company and that was an offshoot of my interest in performance and sports performance. Um, but within a few years of, of engaging in creating high potency multivitamins for athletes and, and performance safe, legal

performance enhancing products, I found that most of my market was little old ladies who had read the research on anti-aging and, uh, wanted to live longer and wanted to be healthy and have a better quality of life. I started on a radio program with a guy named Doug Kaufman who had a show called Know the Cause, and it was really a health and fitness kind of oriented, mostly health. And how old were you? Oh, I was already old by then. You don't look old. I was 46, 47, something like that when I started that. And then he morphed into a TV show that was on a cobbled together network

of Christian and family and faith and family broadcasting throughout the country. So I wound up sponsoring airtime on his show. And then I'd go on as a guest and I'd talk about everything I knew about health and fitness and diet and exercise and medicine to the extent that I could talk about medicine. You were an influencer. I was an influencer. Yeah, for sure. And then, oh, by the way, I have these cool products for sale, these high-potency multivitamin

antioxidant super food before the term super food came along and I built a huge business. Wow. It was huge, but it was a very profitable and nice business and could have kept me going for a long time, uh, doing that. And that for six, seven years, I grew five or 6% a month, uh, on the strength of that. And that was back in the days when, you know, call my phone number and talk to my call center and, you know, to order. You couldn't order online at that point. And it was just sort of coming into vogue. And again, I had a great, great business. Over the years, what happened, and, you know, this is the way business works, and this is why

you have to pivot in business. 2004 rolls around, and I realize I'm not selling as much product. The model has shifted, and now instead of there being a handful of stations that people could watch on television, ABC, CBS, NBC, maybe Fox, now there were 300 stations. Now there was cable, and there were edition were addition direct and the internet was starting to make broadcasting available. People had realized that this concept of the call to action, call the next 30 minutes and you'll get this as well. That the public became immune to that.

And so my model, which is kind of based on an infomercial model shifted and I started to lose money. I started to lose, um, the, uh, the audience that I'd built. Um, and it was quite devastating. And so for one year I thought, um, well, I can fix this. Um, and this is where in business you sort of, you know, you, you look at what the next, maybe what door opens for you. And in this case, I had to, I thought, well, I'll do my own show. And I'll produce and direct and star in a health show. And I did. And I shot 52 half-hour episodes of a show called Responsible Health.

Great name, great show. Built a set. Had a co-host. Had guests on every day. Bought time on Travel Channel. Was on at 8.30 every morning on Travel Channel, Monday through Friday, and lost a million and a half bucks within about eight months. It's smart to talk about it. It's good to talk about it because a lot of entrepreneurs,

when something starts going, maybe you had a successful business like you had, and then something changes and they try to hang on and they try to keep that same model. So you have to be aware when it's time to pivot and change and recognize new mediums. That ought to be one of the top five things in business is recognizing when hanging on and perseverance just isn't enough. And you got to pivot and you got to rethink. It's why Blockbuster is not Netflix. No, that's one of many great examples. Yeah. So in 2006, I thought, you know, this blogging thing sounds pretty cool. Maybe I'll start doing that.

I was great at content. If I do say so myself, you know, in television, you have to, it's thousands of dollars per minute to produce it. And by the time, and then on the internet, it was like kind of free. Uh, you know, you could, you could be in 2 billion homes. You just had to be one of, at the time, 250 million channels. So you had to have people be able to find you. And that was the real challenge. Insurance broker was asking me for this business. Okay. Well, how much do we need to

insure these recording sessions for? Like what, how much, what kind of expenses, what can go wrong if something like, I don't know, maybe like a hundred bucks, like what's going to happen here? You know, we've got the equipment that's already paid for it. No. And you're right in video, in the old days of video, you know, every camera was $80,000 and you know, you had all the editing stuff. The software was hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Now you can do it on a phone. No, it's crazy. It's crazy how fast and how efficient. I want to go back to the, to the gene switching. Yes. Right. And being able to turn on and off genes, positive, negative.

What do you see as the biggest, I don't want to say mistakes, we could call them mistakes for this purpose. What's a negative gene to turn on? I don't know if I even framed that question right, but do you know what I'm trying to get at here? No, no, no, I do. And by the way, I don't even like to think in terms of negative and positive. Genes do what they do.

They're just, like you could say, you know, I got type 2 diabetes because of the signals I gave my genes in terms of not exercising enough and eating too much sugar and eating too many industrialized seed oils, things like canola, soybean, corn oil. All those things switch on genes that increase inflammation, that predispose the cells to be resistant to insulin and cause type 2 diabetes. But if you take out the assessment of good or bad, that's just your perfect body responding to the signals you gave it. And you can change that by altering the way you eat and the way you move. In 95% of cases, I can take somebody who has type 2 diabetes and have, and make them not have type 2 diabetes with those shifts. Be specific here. I

want to know, like, if let's say I have type 2 diabetes, what are you going to tell me to do? Yeah. So, you know, I have to be careful to not be dispensing medical advice. He's not dispensing medical advice. We're just talking and having a conversation. That's where that insurance policy comes in. I've known people who have done this. Cut out the sugars. Cut out the sweetened beverages. Cut out the pies, cakes, candies, cookies, ice cream, and all that stuff. Get rid of sweetened beverages. Get rid of grains, for the most part.

Get rid of industrial seed oils like corn oil, soybean oil, canola oil, and in their place introduce, what a novel concept, real food. So meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds, vegetables, a little bit of fruit, and then exercise. And not just, you know, not just hitting the gym and getting on the treadmill and banging out 500 calories in 45 minutes, but a lot of walking and then a little bit of lifting weights. And invariably, this concept of insulin resistance subsides and blood sugar normalizes and people are no longer type 2 diabetic. Are there any ingredients or foods that people think are good for them that when you hear them saying, hey, I'm doing more of this to try to lose weight, that you're just like, that's a mistake? Oh, I mean, I see it all the time with people like on a- Like for a long time,

people thought soy was good for men. I think soy is, I don't- Horrible. Yeah. Horrible. Yeah. So I've been battling the conventional wisdom my whole career. I started talking about saturated fat and cholesterol not being the proximate cause of heart disease 20 years ago. And at the time, there were other people talking about it and there was good research on it, but it was not being the proximate cause of heart disease, you know, 20 years ago. And at the time there were other people talking about it and there was good research on it, but it was not being accepted by many people at all. And now it's sort of conventional wisdom or commonly known that it's oxidative damage and inflammation that are cause of heart disease and that cholesterol is just a minor player in that role and saturated fat has pretty much nothing to do with it. Throughout the 80s and 90s, you know, it was conventional wisdom and the mantra was

fat makes you fat. You know, the fat you eat is the fat you wear. And now we know that's almost the exact opposite, that consuming healthy fats is good for you. It's beneficial in many ways, one of which is just in how you combust fuel and how your body moves. And we want to be good at burning fat. We don't want to be reliant on carbohydrates. But for the longest time, you know, the fitness industry would say, oh, don't never go two and a half hours without eating something. You know, carry your Tupperware around with you and make sure you have 10 grams of protein and a little bit of carbohydrate there. And if you don't, if you skip a meal or two, you'll start to go into cannibal mode and you'll cannibalize your muscle tissue. And all of that stuff was nonsense,

but that's what everybody adhered to. And, you know, we tend to have, you know, I guess a collective conscious in this country about what we think is good for us and what we think is healthy for us. And in many cases, it can be demonstrated that it's almost the opposite. So you're blogging, I assume you're blogging about all these things that you're talking about now. And then when does the idea for Primal Kitchen come? Well, so that's a great example of, again, going down that business route with the same blinders on. And so for almost 10 years, I was writing about diet, exercise, fitness, all sorts of things having to do with health and wellness. And I was selling my vitamins. And I was using my website as the platform upon which

to sell my supplements. Around 2014, I'm like, you know, the business isn't growing the way I thought it would. And I'm writing about food a lot. I mean, I really have identified food as being a major factor in accessing better health. So I started writing about not just the types of food that we eat, but I was presenting recipes every Saturday. I was all sorts of DIY stuff on how to make your own sauces and salad dressings and even condiments. And I recognized just a light bulb went on and I'm like, you know, when you get rid of all the crap that I just talked about, the industrial seed oils and the sugars and the added processed carbohydrates and things like that, and you come down to this list of real food, it's wonderful food, but it's kind of a short list, right? There's going to be beef, pork, lamb,

chicken, turkey, a couple of kinds of fish, name me 17 vegetables that you'll eat next year, be a potato or something here and there. What makes the difference is how you prepare it, the sauces, the dressings, the toppings, the herbs, the spices, the methods of preparation that give that real food an almost infinite variety. It's the reason that there are probably a thousand paleo or keto cookbooks now. When you prepare these foods according to that template, that paleo or primal or keto template, these foods are awesome. I mean, you have a dinner party and people who didn't know that you were keto or low carb would come over and say, this is the best lamb I've ever had, or this is the best chicken I've ever had.

And you go, oh, by the way, it's very healthy. It's very good for you. Well, they can't believe it, right? So it's what you put on the food that really makes the difference. And I realized that no one was making the sorts of condiments and salad dressings and sauces that I was writing about making DIY or that I wanted for myself. And I'm a guy who I don't like to make, you know, people say you have like, you know, you have seven cookbooks. You must love to cook. I'm like, no, I hate to cook. I love to eat. I just want to tell people how to make food for me. So I looked at the marketplace and I thought, well, there's an opportunity here for someone to make a really great tasting and good for you mayo, ketchup, mustard, salad dressings, barbecue sauces, steak sauces. And that's what really became the impetus for starting Primal Kitchen only in 2014. And we launched our first product in February of 2015. That's pretty incredible. I mean, the pace of that. But you know, like thinking back as a kid,

now I eat a lot of it. I can eat vegetables because I have all these tools. But when I was growing up, it just, it was so bland and gross. And then you don't know how to cook it. I mean, I'm not a cook. And so later you need these things to be able to stomach a lot of this stuff. I mean, if I do say so myself. No, no, no, you're absolutely right. And so one of the greatest testimonials we get

for our products is my kids are now eating salads and vegetables and because the mayonnaise tastes great and they love it. And I feel great about giving them as much as they want. And we just like a year ago, we introduced a ketchup that was the first. Ketchup's really good. It's really good if I do say so myself. And it was, it's like, how come no one solved that in the last 10 years?

Because we've known about high fructose corn syrup and all of the sort of less than desirable components of ketchup for a long time. It's one of the reasons that moms have sort of withdrawn ketchup from the kid's menu and in so doing, you know, have made it that much more difficult to introduce vegetables. Yeah, I could not figure out why no one had solved that. And so we did, and we have a great tasting, organic, completely unsweetened ketchup that is just, I think, a game changer for a lot of people, but for moms especially. That, the Thousand Island, and the avocado mayo are my favorites. That's great.

You guys got to try those ones. Those are like insane. What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting? All right, plot twist. Let's talk about skincare, okay? Wouldn't you love an edible serum, Michael, with avocado oil, organic olive fruit, reishi mushrooms, honeysuckle flower essence, Japanese honeysuckle flower extract, and jojoba seed oil. Lauren, I would love that if I didn't already have it from my favorite friends over at Four Sigmatic. Thank God, because your forehead was looking like a cursive line. It's looking pretty fleeky these days.

I got to say so myself. You're looking dewy. I got my mushroom superfoods both in and outside of my body. Guys, Four Sigmatic has launched skincare, okay? There's a serum and there's also a mushroom face mask. I'm a huge fan of the serum. I've talked about this over and over and over. It's this black bottle of this incredible oil that is so pure you can actually

eat it. That's right, you can eat it. And it hydrates your skin and gives you this smooth, dewy, glowy, pretty skin. Really nice to put underneath your makeup. My favorite way to use it is at night. I take it down to the tits. You know this. It's on my neck. It's on my chest. It's everywhere. And the best part of this is this is a really good product to start your significant other with. A lot of you guys have asked how I've gotten Michael into such a efficient skincare routine. And it's because I started him with one product. So this product is like, you could say your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, you could say, listen, this is a product that is

so good that you can eat it. So they could like eat it, you know why they're using it. And you just feel so youthful after that it's worth every single penny. And don't worry, ladies, for the men out there that have that little bit of a, you know, a little bit insecure and still want to be a little bit more masculine. It comes in a sleek black bottle, very masculine, very strong. I have it on my vanity. Cruelty-free vegan, and edible. Guys, we have a special offer for you just to save you a little bit more money on this product. Get your guys looking good.

Get your ladies looking fine. Go to foursigmatic.com slash skinny for 15% off your entire order. Again, that's foursigmatic.com slash skinny for 15% off your entire order. Enjoy their whole range of products. It's something that we swear by. We love them all. The quickest way to make your husband dewy and glowy. Four Sigmatic. It's what I do. I'm a huge fan of it. I've written a lot about it. It's probably the way we're meant to eat. We're not meant to eat three meals a day, let alone, you know, three meals plus two snacks,

plus my bedtime, whatever. When I was training, when I was a kid, that's what every trainer said. They say, wake up, you have this massive meal. Then you go to the gym, then you have a shake with another snack, and then you have lunch, and then you have another snack, and then you have a massive dinner. Yeah. And that was, again, that was the notion, first of all, was that we run on carbohydrate and glycogen and glucose, not on fat. And that has shifted. So now the circles that I run in and the science that I look at looks at, you know, how can we become really good at burning fat? I call it metabolically flexible. How can we develop this body that gets energy from whatever substrate is available? Could be the fat on your plate of food, could be the fat on your thighs or belly or hips,

could be the carbohydrate in your plate of food, could be the fat on your thighs or belly or hips, could be the carbohydrate in your plate of food, could be the glucose in your bloodstream or the glycogen in your muscles, could be the amino acids in your bloodstream, although we don't want that to happen. It could be the ketones that your liver's making. There's all these types of substrates for energy that could be available if we turned on the right genes, getting back to that. So one of the ways to do this, to become metabolically flexible and to become fat adapted, and in so doing become keto adapted, is to A, cut carbohydrates way down. So you force your body to tap into its stored body fat, and then B, find opportunities to not eat. And that scared a lot of bodybuilders, a lot of trainers over the years, because again,

you keep thinking that, well, if I don't eat, if I skip a meal, then there's this whole cascade of events, which will cause my, you know, the lack of blood sugar, lack of blood glucose to tell my brain to secrete cortisol from my adrenals and go tear down muscle tissue to send some of those amino acids to the liver to become glucose to feed the brain. All of that goes away when you become fat adapted. When you learn how to burn your own body fat, then the brain has plenty of fuel, doesn't get frantic or desperate. You can go long periods of time, like really long periods of time without needing food. That's been the biggest eye-opener for me is, you know, you can go three, four, five days without eating food if you want to or have to, and have not only no negative consequences, have potentially positive effects from the, what we call autophagy, the housekeeping,

the house cleaning that takes place in the cells, and the cells start to, in the absence of other food substrates, might consume damaged proteins, might get rid of damaged fats within the cell, might start doing some DNA repair in the cell. All of these things now become very, very important longevity strategies. And so back to the intermittent fasting thing, the, the way I started intermittent fasting is I just, because I became good at burning fat, I wake up in the morning and I have all the energy I need for the day. I don't need to eat breakfast. So I eat my first meal around one 30 in the afternoon, uh, pretty much. Um, I'm going to talk a little bit more about fractal eating, but, much every day, one or 1.30, sometimes two.

What time did you stop eating the night before? 7, 7.30. Okay. Yeah, so it's what we call a compressed eating window. Now, some people would call that intermittent fasting, and that's my standard. I eat two meals a day, not three. Other people would look at intermittent fasting and say, well, it's not really intermittent fasting unless you go at least 24 hours between meals.

But what we realize pretty quickly is that when you become fat adapted, when you become metabolically flexible, when you have access to your own stored body fat, like at a moment's notice, the body doesn't even know whether it got the energy from the food you just ate or from your hips or thighs or butt or wherever that fat's coming from. It's this seamless transition. And one of the, probably the single greatest benefit is hunger, appetite, cravings dissipate. They almost disappear for some people. So you don't get hungry. Now, you'd say, well, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's a great thing because I think a lot of people run their lives around food and timing of meals.

Like, Mike, we can't do the podcast today at 1130 because that's going to cut into my lunch and I'll get hangry, right? Or I can't take that four-hour flight that time of day because that's going to go right through dinner time and they don't serve food on the plane. All those things that we sort of think about where you wake up in the morning and it's just, and you hear that breakfast is the most important meal of the day, right? It's not, and it may be quite the opposite. So the freedom that you arrive at when you become metabolically flexible, fat adapted, keto adapted, extends to this freedom from mealtimes, this release from the tether of hunger, appetite, and cravings, this additional energy that you have throughout the day. Lowers your cortisol?

Lowers your cortisol. I used to stuff an egg in my face when I was going down the elevator. Now with intermittent fasting, you don't have to be doing that, which is Which is crazy. No, it's, it's such, it's so empowering. So what are you allowed to eat when you're fasting? Like, I know you can, you can drink black coffee. Can you do an almond milk like Malk? No. So, you know, fasting. Every time we talk about this subject, she pushes me out so we can do almond milk. Fasting, by its very definition, means you're not consuming anything that has calories in it. Okay. So, you know, and I hear people, you know, talk about their intermittent fasting and

they're having a buttered coffee with 250 calories and MCT oil and butter and whatever in it. No, it's not fasting. And there's a, you know, a dear friend of mine has a book out now, which is basically based on intermittent fasting. And there's a, you know, a dear friend of mine has a book out now, which is basically based on intermittent fasting. And I have to sort of sometimes laugh at the fact that anything that has fat in it is cheating the fast. Well, it's not cheating the fast. I think he's been on this show. He's a sweetheart and I love him to death. But he's, you know, but that's not fasting. That's not having a negative effect, you know, but it's not fasting. So it's just not consuming

ice tea, unsweetened ice tea. Unsweetened ice tea. Before you keep going in this, how... She wants to find a way. No, I want the specifics of what you're allowed, like what are the foods that are... Every time we talk about this subject, like I said... Is it just water, coffee, tea? Pretty much. Yeah. Some people would argue even coffee is not appropriate, but it's like, at some point you got to like, what am I trying to do here? Am I literally trying not to eat or am I trying to derive benefits from a strategy that I put together, which includes enjoying my life? Well, that's the key there too, because you don't want to torture yourself.

You live this life once. I wanted to talk, I want to stay on the subject, but how in line is keto with intermittent fasting and how do they kind of play with it? Because I know you've talked about the keto diet for a long time. Yeah. That's something we haven't really gone into on the show very often at all. We've touched on it. Yeah. So I wanted to know how that plays into intermittent fasting, if at all. Oh, 100%. They're very aligned. So the more keto you

are, the longer you can go without eating. And by definition, that's fasting. A lot of my keto friends have one meal a day, not because they're intentional about it and they're trying to lose weight. In fact, my most keto friends have one meal a day. One of them is a bodybuilder. One of them is a business person who's built a very successful business. And when I first started asking him about one meal a day, that's a wild thought, first of all,

and you must have to be really mindful of what you eat for that one meal. And in my mind, I'm thinking that's because you probably won't going to overeat, right? And stuff yourself. He goes, yeah, I have to be really mindful that I eat enough because hunger just doesn't run me. And so that, that again, was a very eyeopening thing. And what I realized for myself was that for, and I'm, you know, in my sixties and when

I was in my forties and fifts, I was still consuming 33, 34, 3,500 calories a day and maintaining my mass and maintaining my, you know, strength and everything else. But I realized once I tapped into this superpower that we have, this sort of ketogenic metabolic flexibility-based power, I can get by on 30% fewer calories than I thought I needed. So I have days when I have 1200 calories. Some days I have 2200 calories. I almost never have more than 3000 calories in a day. And I think, you know, if you, if I could like have a wish be granted right now to change the world, it would be, um, if everyone ate the way I did, we could feed the planet. Because we, first of all, most Americans in most of the first world countries would eat 30% fewer, well, I'm eating

30% fewer than what I ate. Most people could get by on 70% fewer calories than they currently consume. We're definitely overeating over here, for sure. What are you breaking your fast with, and what are you eating when you are eating? Can you give us specifics? Is there like recipes that you use? Which dressings do you use? I want to go so micro here. Yeah. So a lot of times my first meal is a big ass salad.

So that's been my sort of go-to favorite crunchy, salty, fatty, sweet. Do you make it at home? I have people who make it for me. Okay. What do they make? Tell us what they make. Just a giant bowl of mixed greens, probably cucumber, tomatoes, red peppers, green peppers, radishes, whatever's handy, certainly an avocado, maybe some nuts, and then topped off with some form of protein like grilled salmon or steak from the night before or some chicken, doused heavily with Primal Kitchen dressing.

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Which is your favorite? My favorite is lemon turmeric. Okay. But don't tell anybody in my company. Too late. Too late. Only a couple of people will hear this. No, I mean, I have all the dressings. Well, they initially came out of my own kitchen because those were the ones that I, those were my go-to dressing. So the first one we ever did was the honey mustard. And I wanted to replicate the honey mustard that I used on an almost daily basis. I mean, part of my, just who I am, I'm a little bit boring in my life. I like sort of routine.

A lot of successful people are. They like to wear the same thing. They like to eat the same thing. That doesn't surprise me. Yeah. So for me, the big ass salad, the variety was in the choice of meat that I had, the protein on top and the dressing. And now that we have 14 dressings at Primal Kitchen. Ton of variety.

Ton of variety. And I can take that same collection of greens and vegetables and change the taste, you know, sesame ginger one day, lemon turmeric another day, balsamic vinegar one day, barbecue ranch another day. So there are lots of variability there. And again, it gives people that much more reason to stick to a healthy eating plan. Having said that, I met somebody for lunch the other day, had a skirt steak for lunch. That's all I had. It was great. Wait, hold on. No, no, no. I got to hear about dinner, Michael. Okay. So dinner. We need specifics. Yeah. So dinner is typically another protein-based chicken or fish. Now that the carnivore diet is

becoming a thing, and I'm really doing a deep dive into that and researching it, I realized, wow, it's actually okay to have red meat more than a couple times a week. So I'll have a ribeye or, you know, last night we went to Belcampo. I'll give them a plug here in Santa Monica. And we had 150-day aged ribeye. Making Michael hungry. Listen, I haven't eaten. I'm still fast. I'm getting hungry now.

Yeah. So dinner would be some large portion of protein and fat with grilled vegetables, broccoli, broccolini, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, something like that. Not a lot of carb at all. Not a lot of carb, no. If you're going to do a carb, is there a bread brand that you can recommend? No. What about Dave's Killer Bread? But having said that, there's not one that I recommend, but there are some that fit the bill, that are really quite good, and I would probably be okay with them.

It's just that I don't eat bread largely because of the carb content in addition to the gluten. So some of these breads that have almond flour and coconut flour and things like that, they're great, and they're grain-free. Like what's a brand? They're gluten-free. So it sounds're great. And they're grain-free. Like what's a brand? They're gluten-free. So it sounds like your biggest thing is being grain-free. Yeah, grain-free is my big thing. Okay. And in so doing, I'm gluten-free

because gluten's been problematic for me. That was the thing that I identified almost 20 years ago that changed my life. There's two things I want to stay on here for a minute. The keto diet. So like I said, we've brushed on it a little bit on the show, but we've never actually done a deep dive into keto. For people that every one of us has that we're born with. It's a factory setting at birth, and that is the ability to derive most of our energy from fats, and whatever energy that we thought we needed to get from carbohydrate or glucose,

we can get from ketones. Now, ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. They're healthy. They're good for you, contrary to what some doctors have believed over the years. Ketones are generated in the liver. And so when you withhold carbohydrates from the body, and I'm talking about now getting below 30, 40 grams of carbs a day, or you don't eat, because that'll happen too, your body starts to upregulate these gene signaling pathways that improve your access to take fat out of storage. It increases the amount of, the number of mitochondria that we have in the muscles so we can burn that fat and use that fat for fuel and not rely on carbohydrate. And then the brain, which typically we think of as being

100% reliant on glucose, runs even better on ketones. Now, you need a little bit of glucose, but you get that glucose from the body makes 50 to 100 grams of glucose a day by itself without any external input. So the ketogenic diet is one in which we are able to improve our fat burning, create an access and burn ketones, and offset our need to take in any carbohydrate at all. The process over time then yields an ideal body composition for most people. In other words, you take your own stored body fat and you start burning it as fuel. That's what it's for. Evolution created this amazing system. Like I'll take you back a couple of million years where our brains are wired to overeat.

Now that's problematic today because there's access to so much food. But in the absence of food, when a brain is wired to overeat, that's a good thing, to fill up, to overeat, to eat more than we'll say to you. Now, we're also wired to convert the excess energy from having overeaten into a fuel that we get to carry around with us on our bodies. It's so cool, if you think about it, that we can convert energy into a fuel that we can carry right over the center of gravity, right over the hips. We're bipedal organisms. We stand upright. So to load the fat, this fuel, onto our hips and our thighs and our butt is beautiful design. It's perfect, right? Now, a lot of people would argue with that and say, that's not necessarily perfect for me because

I've been trying to lose that stuff, right? But the fact that we do that was essential to our evolution and our survival to get to here. The problem comes today with access to so much food, we never do the reverse, which is tap into those fuel stores and combust them and burn them and make them disappear or melt away because we just, we don't give our bodies the right signals. That's the gene signaling. So when you withhold carbohydrate, when you cut back sugar, when you don't eat for periods of time, these signals start to happen and the body says,

"'Well, I gotta make more mitochondria "'so I can burn more fat. "'I'm not gonna get much glucose, "'so I have to make ketones to run the brain. "'This is awesome. "'I'm gonna build the metabolic machinery to combust all this stuff. I don't need carbohydrate. And that's what the ketogenic diet is about. And so the way in which you begin that process, and I have a book called

The Keto Reset Diet. That was going to be my follow-up was what's the best approach? Yeah. The best approach in my mind is to spend three weeks just stair-stepping your way to get ready to do keto. So the three weeks would be getting rid of, again, the industrial seed oil. So the corn oil, soybean oil, processed foods, sugars, pies, cakes, candies, cookies, ice cream, sweetened beverages. I know, people, it sounds like a daunting task. It sounds gnarly. Yeah. What about fruit and potatoes? So fruit, by the way, that's a good dish, fruit and potatoes. So those are two that I would eliminate. Now, in the first three weeks.

If you're going to go, if you're going to do the keto. In the first three weeks, a little bit of potatoes, some fruit is fine as you're stair stepping your way into this program. So you want to get comfortable with getting rid of breads, pastas, rice, cereal, pies, cakes, candies, cookies, and all that stuff. And eating real, you just want to get comfortable eating real food. Now, once you've gotten comfortable doing that, and you wake up and you feel a little bit more energetic, and you don't feel so full all the time,

and you certainly don't feel as hungry all the time, then, and in the book, we have like a midterm exam that you take and you have to get a 70 on it in order to earn the right to go keto, right? Then you just find 50 or 60 grams of carbs in your current plan that you can eliminate, and that might be the potatoes and the fruit, and cut it down to 30, 40 grams of carbs for a couple of weeks. And you'll ease into keto and it'll be, you know, most people say, you know, it's a little bit, there's a little bit of discomfort for a day or two because the brain hasn't gotten used to the concept of not having glucose all the time. But once it does, and once it gets adept at burning the ketones, now a whole added level, you sort of ratchet up a level of energy in terms of your thought process, your cognition, your mood, your just basic energy cruising through the day.

Last follow-up question on this. So we've had some prominent names on the show that are critics of the keto diet. How would you answer those critics that do criticize this diet? Well, I mean, if keto is not dangerous, if it's done right, it's actually extremely beneficial. It is the default setting for humans. We are supposed to be deriving most of our energy from fat. If you're a woman, you're going to have some hormonal variables that we can throw

into the equation. And yeah, that's right. So you have to do this mindfully and intentionally, but it's still, I would say the ideal human diet is one that is low in or devoid of sugars. If I had one piece of advice to give everybody in the world, it's just the less sugar you eat in your life, the better off you'll be. And if you can get that down to zero or close to zero, then that's the best you're going to... Alcohol? Yeah. Hold on. We got to talk about wine. What about wine? Yeah. What about cocktails? Well, so wine and cocktails are two... I mean, all of these things exist on a spectrum of horrible to maybe even beneficial or horrible to not so horrible if you make the right choice.

So alcohol- And do you drink? I do. I drink wine just about every night. I love wine. My kind of guy. But now I'm mindful of the wines that I choose. So there are certain wines, particularly in the United States, that have 150, 200 grams of sugar per bottle, like as much or more than Coca-Cola. Plus they have added tannins and histamine-forming compounds and one or more of 76 approved

additives that the U.S. Department of Agriculture does not require you to disclose on your wine label. I drink clean wine. So I drink wines that are from old growth European, some South American wineries that are sourced by my friend Todd White at Dry Farm Wines. Obsessed with Dry Farm Wines. I just read a blog post on this. Katie introduced me from Wellness Mama. Yeah. So I'm probably the first of our group that embraced the whole concept because I want to drink wine. And Todd's story was a great one, which is he's keto. He's one of my keto friends. He's been keto for 10 years. And he's very fit and very healthy and energetic and all the things you want to see in a person. And he loves the lifestyle, but he likes wine. And he found that when he was drinking regular Napa wines, not to name names, but he was feeling like crap the next morning and

the keto wasn't working for him. So he started researching wines that had no sugar, lower alcohol, devoid of these approved additives. So they're crisp, clean wines. And when I first started doing this, I thought, well, Jesus, how am I going to give up my big, rich, full, fat, leathery, chocolatey California cabs? And now it's like, I can't drink them. Or the same way. They taste like cough syrup to me. Yes, it's too heavy. can't drink that. Or the same way. They taste like cough syrup to me. Yes, it's too heavy. You trained your taste buds. Exactly. Which is what, by the way, we do when we cut sugars and we get rid of our sweet tooth. We still like sweet, but we're not craving it,

for instance. So to answer your question, a little bit of alcohol isn't going to derail your ketogenic efforts. There's things like the NorCal margarita, which my friend Rob Wolf sort of invented. You know, it's no sugar in that and uses tequila. Tequila is one of the approved spirits that you can consume. But having said all of that, ethanol is still a toxin. So it's like you, you know, there's on that spectrum, you're still better off not drinking than you are drinking. But if you're going to drink, then be mindful of your choices. Don't drink any kind of a beverage with an umbrella on it. And I think you can enjoy your life. And at the end of the day, my mantra at

Primal Kitchen and at Primal Blueprint and all of my Primal businesses is live awesome. So when it comes to food, I don't ever let myself go hungry or hangry. I enjoy every bite of food I put in my mouth. I'm not going to eat something just because it's healthy. Take it away. I want everything that I eat to taste great. I want to enjoy the most of every possible moment in life. So I don't want to be putting off enjoyment for tomorrow if I can enjoy this moment today. And so that includes social occasions where you might have some wine, maybe once in a while, a bite or two of dessert, depending on what kind of dessert or what my mood is. I'm not so dogmatic about this that I refuse on principle to have certain types of food.

I live in what I call the keto zone. So I've done the work. I've refined my metabolism. I have this metabolic flexibility and efficiency that I talk about so that I can have a couple of bites of cheesecake and not have it change anything about the way I feel or my energy levels or cannibalizing muscle tissue or whatever the, you know, the old... Something my dad says, says, I'm going to butcher it, says something like never put off what you can do today because if you like it today, you can do it tomorrow. Okay. I'll try and wrap my head around that after the show and figure out if I can use that. It sounds good. What's a book, a podcast, or a resource that you can recommend to our audience that's brought you extreme value? Wow, you're springing that on me because I'm,

you know, I like a lot of guys' podcasts. Look, I mean, I have to say I learned so much from Joe Rogan because he's such a great... Wide range. He's so wide range and he's, you know, he's just knowledgeable enough to ask the right questions, but not so knowledgeable that he, that he's forcing, you know, an unlearned opinion on you. So I'm a, I'm a big fan of Rogan for the podcast. Um, but you know, I, Peter Atiyah, um, is a, a deep diver into, uh, keto and, and health and wellness. In terms of books, I have to say I don't read much anymore. I read a lot, but I read novels because I have 30 years of reading nothing but technical journals. And now that I'm quote retired- Time to disconnect a bit.

Yeah. I want to, like if I'm on a vacation, I want to read a novel or I want to read- Who do you like? I read a bit. Yeah. I want to, like, if I'm on a vacation, I want to read, I want to read a novel or I want to read. Who do you like? I read a lot of novels. Let's see. So, I mean, you know, like Ken Follett's series, you know, in the 11th and 12th century are great. But also I like Connelly, Balducci or Baldacci you know

just you just moved to Florida right? yes there's a guy you need to read maybe you have Carl Hyacinth have you ever read his books? no

it's all about the crazy characters that are in Florida I gotta read it then he's got a whole series there's a character in there named Skink who lives in the swamps you'll like it

it's all these knuckleheads that just get into in trouble you'll read them in a day or two where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself out your Instagram, Primal Kitchen's Instagram, the website, everything. So my Instagram is Mark Sisson Primal. And the website is Mark's Daily.

The blog is Mark's Daily Apple. And that's really the OG of my platform. And then PrimalKitchen.com to find out about our food line. And then I have a robust coaching business. We actually coach coaches to be, you know, do what I do, primalhealthcoach.com. We've had 4,000 people go through that program. Wow. Yeah.

Thank you for taking the time and coming on. You are a wealth of knowledge. Oh, thank you for having me. I was taking notes during the episode of what I'm going to order, and I'm going to have a lemon turmeric primal kitchen salad. This is going to be one of the episodes of my own episodes where I go back and listen. Okay. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. Don't forget there is a huge giveaway happening on this episode. Okay. Three of you are going to win $300 worth of Primal Kitchen goodies. This basket is major. Again,

we're going to pick three of you guys to each win a $300 basket of Primal Kitchen goodies. You're going to get the lemon turmeric dressing in there. Don't worry. All you have to do is tell us your favorite Primal Kitchen product on my latest Instagram at the Skinny Confidential, and then follow at Primal Kitchen Foods on Instagram. So easy. You guys are going to be obsessed with their products.