The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - The Truth About Supplements: Misleading Claims & What You Must Look Out For Ft. Dr. Nima Alamdari & Katerina Schneider

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

#763: Join us as we sit down with Katerina Schneider, Founder & CEO of Ritual, and Dr. Nima Alamdari, Ritual’s Chief Scientific Officer. Discover insider secrets of the supplement industry from Ritual’s leading experts, committed to transparency & developing supplements backed by science. In this episode, we address industry concerns, highlight essential ingredients to look for, & reveal the truth behind supplement labels! To Join us in New York City for Dear Media IRL with Lauryn & Michael and some of your favorite creators click HERE To connect with Katerina Schneider click HERE To connect with Dr. Nima Alamdari click HERE To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To Watch the Show click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential Head to the HIM & HER Show ShopMy page HERE to find all of Michael and Lauryn’s favorite products mentioned on their latest episodes. Visit Ritual.com/TSC30 and use code TSC30 to get 30% off your first order of Ritual. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

When I transitioned from academia to industry, it became really clear to me that companies were making products based on pseudoscience. And by that, I mean products that have no facts, no data, and no proof that the products work. We actually run dissolution studies. So we show how it gets released in a stomach environment. Don't want them to get destroyed by the stomach environment. Like for instance, with probiotics, we ran a study and we show that it's a pre-pro postbiotic. It gets released in the colon, which is the ideal place for bacteria to thrive. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show.

Today, we have a mighty duo on the podcast, the duo behind Ritual Vitamins and Supplements, which I'm sure many of you are fans of and take, Katerina Schneider and Dr. Nima Alamdari on the show. Nima is the chief scientific officer and Kat, who's been on this show before, is the founder and CEO of Ritual. Today, we talk about essential supplements and nutrients everyone should think about taking, ways to take care of ourself better, and things that we should be looking out for when it comes to supplements and nutrition. This episode is for the science nerds out there, as well as anyone that's interested in taking better care of themselves. With that, Dr. Nima and Katarina, welcome back to The Skinny

Confidential, him and her show. This is The Skinny Confidential, him and her what makes you dr nema skeptical of the supplement industry to begin with from a high level and a micro level where do i start i guess it started honestly when i was doing my phd in the uk and my supervisor took me to one of the supplement stores and was turning around the bottles and showing me what was wrong on the supplements. And so it was enlightening as a student to sort of have that kind of view of the world. But I think one, I'm British, so I think naturally we're skeptical and we ask quite a bit of questions. I was always interested in this health area. I always knew that I would be working within health, whether it be nutrition or exercise. And that's what led me to study.

I think when I studied and I studied more, it became really clear to me that there was a problem within the industry and pseudoscience is prevalent. And there's a big gap between academia and what's available to customers in industry. What are the ingredients that you can pinpoint that you were like, I cannot believe this is in there or the pseudoscience that you just mentioned? I think it's the laundry list, right? I mean, if you go to some of the expositions in our industry there's thousands of ingredients but most likely there's 20 plus ingredients that truly have some efficacy around them that to me is the most interesting gap because i think there's so much noise so many ingredients and just lack of data like lack of you know real evidence basis behind the ingredients

that are being claimed or proposed within supplements. So hard thing to answer, but yeah, I think there's just like more noise than there is evidence and credibility. When you guys both are on Instagram or on TikTok and you're scrolling and you see an ad for a supplement,

what drives you absolutely fucking bananas? Like where you're like and you see an ad for a supplement, what drives you absolutely fucking bananas? Like where you're like, I just, I can't. Oh my God. So many things. But I would say the first one, I think alluding to what Nima just said is the term clinically studied is so misused in this category. So you have products that say we're clinically studied or we're science backed, but they don't actually have ingredients that match the clinical studies or even the dosages in those studies. So they might have the ingredient. And then on top of that, the whole product is not clinically studied. So are they saying basically like there is an ingredient in there that has been clinically studied and so they're able to make that claim, but it doesn't necessarily have to do with the ratio of ingredients in their particular

supplement. Is that correct? Or did I misunderstand that? Exactly. That is accurate. There is no currently, there's two things that really drive us crazy is the lack of kind of a clear definition in the industry of what clinically studied means. There's no regulation around that. And so that's something that I know Nima's deeply passionate about. What do you call it? What do you call those liars and triers? Liars and triers, yeah. Liars and triers. Tell me about liars and triers. He's literally developed this pyramid of, okay, so the holy grail is that you have ingredients in your products that have clinical studies, those ingredients have matched the

dosages and forms in those legitimate clinical studies. So that's the baseline. That's something that is a baseline for everything that we do, not the norm, not regulated. And then on top of that, what is the holy grail is that you end up running your own clinical study with that combination of ingredients in those products. With your ratio or whatever. Exactly. Double blind placebo. What ways do you guys feel like consumers are being duped besides clinical studies? What are other things that they should be aware of as someone, especially we purchase supplements, the audience purchases supplements, what should we be aware of? The FDA doesn't have health protective measures when it comes to heavy metals.

Shocking. Shocking. That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah. Maybe this is for both of you or for Nima, like why is that right now? Is it just because we're just discovering that heavy metals are in things and that we haven't caught up? Or is there a reason that the FDA doesn't protect against that? There are regulations and there are safety standards. I think the enforcement is very difficult to really check on the safety profile of all supplements. So they should adhere to safety standards, but I think the regulations are not sufficient because we do have, I think the

research is that 10 to 15% of all supplements on the market contain banned substances or contaminants. You know, that's a pretty scary statistic to sort of think through when you've got access to basically everything. So I think we do need to help arm not only consumers with knowledge, but we do need to, I think, advocate for sort of stricter standards within the industry too. Isn't they just come out with something where they've been finding heavy metals in people's brains?

Is that true or is that not? There's been a lot of recent studies, one that had thousands of participants and show that people consuming botanicals had elevated levels of lead. There was also a study in prenatal vitamins that showed elevated levels of heavy metals as well. I think a lot of supplements are grown overseas where there's even less regulation or enforcement and oversight. And so heavy metals are in everything. It's not necessarily something to be like, holy crap, your water that you're drinking right now, Lauren, has, I'm sure, heavy metals in it. But it is the amount that matters. And I do think that this is definitely the future watch out of the category. And what we pride ourselves on,

especially with the protein, is a commonality that Nima and I got really passionate about, is actually listing the heavy metal amounts on our site because it's the amount that matters, not just not having heavy metals, but what is the amount? Because if you think about everything you're consuming has heavy metals and you aggregate that, then that becomes a problem. When you think about ingredients, if you could wave a wand, Dr. Nima, and say everyone in the United States takes five ingredients. Let's just talk about the ingredients. What are those five ingredients that you would suggest? The way that I think about it is really on what the problems are that require to be solved because there are many, many ingredients that can really play,

I think, a proactive and front-facing role before you go into something different. Now, let's do three categories. Let's start with fertility. Okay. Yeah. Well, fertility is something that we've been looking at pretty recently and it's somewhat underserved, right? So it's a need state that nutrition can play a role. There is evidence basis around that ingredients can influence fertility and conception outcomes. And we've understood that based on clinical data or research-backed ingredients that NAC, CoQ10 and Minositol are ingredients that have been shown to not only improve ovarian and follicular health, but also have conferred to improved

outcomes, meaning better conception rates. So these are the ingredients that we have determined to be the best candidates within that area. Why NAC? Isn't that typically more like metabolic and heart health or no? It's a potent antioxidant and it's a precursor antioxidant to glutathione. Anyway, in research, this has been shown now by various different groups to improve the antioxidant profile in regard to follicular health or egg quality.

So I think there's still more to learn there, but these are the ones that we think have the highest level of evidence. What about the category of stress? What are the ingredients? There's a few really good candidates. I think one of which is ashwagandha. It has got really good clinical evidence now. It was one 10 years ago that was used more by traditional means. Now got plenty of data on ashwagandha in different forms and formats to show its potency. This is one that we have certainly looked at. I think ashwagandha

is an ingredient that right now is getting some limelight for also quality concerns and contaminant concern. It's a really important ingredient to just know the sourcing, transparency, sustainability, ethical sourcing practices, and obviously testing it from a company standpoint. And we have ashwagandha in one of our future products so i know not to go and take you on a tangent there but this keeps coming up almost how how are consumers supposed to know which companies have done well at sourcing and which company you know you look for a company with traceable ingredients yeah michael go ahead i want to know what else i think people should know this first before we go on because we're talking about all these ingredients and I don't want

people to jump on Amazon and just start buying a bunch of stuff. I want them to understand how to look for reputable companies. Does that make sense? I think that's a great question. I think as Nima mentioned, ashwagandha is a really incredible ingredient for stress health. And what Consumer Health Report just shared was that only 25% of ashwagandha met the efficacy standards that they have. And it is really challenging because you have these ingredients that, you know, botanicals especially, that are starting to get a lot more clinical evidence. So the proof of efficacy is becoming more sound. But it is in every form. but it is in every form and it is in every dosage and there are real safety and efficacy concerns. So this is why we have a full team of scientists

in our team that are academics because we approach all of that with a lot of skepticism. We spend so much money in terms of quality, safety, testing, certifications. So certifications are a good answer to your question, I would say. So they don't have certifications, maybe be skeptical of where they source from. Yeah. So one certification that our whole company, all of our products are clean label project certified. This is a great one because it tests for heavy metals, tests for pesticides, glyphosate, around it tests for 200 environmental toxins and harmful chemicals. And so you can't just trust the company.

I would love everyone to trust Ritual. But, you know, what we've learned is that it's really important to have a third party certify what companies are actually putting in their products. Even on stress and fertility, it's, you know, I think what's interesting and why I wanted to bring Nima on the show because I'm like, oh my God, this is so different. It's not just the ingredients, but how the ingredients get into the body. And so with stress, for instance, something that I didn't know and Nima's team, I learned so much from is your cortisol actually peaks in the morning. And so we've actually developed technology of how to release cortisol, how to manage your cortisol

throughout the day using ingredients like ashwagandha, L-theanine, saffron, some of the great ones that I don't want to steal Nima's thunder, but it isn't just the ingredients, but also how these are actually being delivered and impact the various systems in your body yeah i think that's why kat's a honorary professor in our science the science group um we we think about the body first and i think being a physiologist that's kind of like how we think about ingredients so as kat Kat mentioned, okay, stress, like what are the physiological parameters that really cause stress? We know cortisol to be like the regulator here that we want to target through formulation or delivery format. So cortisol is having a peak

cortisol activation response in the morning, and that tapers down, you know, through the day. And then we tackle that through the day. And then we tackle that through the ingredients. So one ingredient, one candidate is L-theanine. It's an actual component of tea. You can get a potent form of this and it's got clinical evidence to, right on the time that you consume it, reduce stress levels. So we use that as part of the ingredient. That's a candidate that we believe to be high integrity and evidence-based. And then we have ashwagandha and then saffron. The saffron studies are really cool in terms of helping to improve mood. And then we have these together.

And as Kat mentioned, we release those along the same profile, the circadian rhythm of cortisol, which is really interesting. So I think not just thinking about the ingredients, but also to Kat's point, how we deliver on that, that's creating efficacy. Can I ask you maybe a dumb question as it relates to cortisol? Do you want your cortisol to rise and spike in the morning or do you want it to stay low? Because I remember at one point, this was years ago, I got blood work and my doctor said, hey, we want your cortisol to come up further in the morning. And I found that to be strange. Which doctor said that? It sounded counterintuitive at the time.

The doctor wanted it to come up? Yeah. So maybe you'll- Yeah, no. Well, you- Those might've been my blood results. No, no. I think you got him confused. No, no. It wasn't. Okay.

It's really important that it does peak in the morning, right? Like it's part of your circadian rhythm. So you do need this to peak. It's just that if somebody is stressed or if someone has perturbations, changes in cortisol, this could be a target to help reduce. And so that's where it's coming from is that the change in cortisol, if it's over indexing as an activation response could be causal to feeling stressed. What happens if it's under, like if it's not, in my case, I think, and again, I'm going to butcher this, but in my case, he was saying like he wanted it to come up more in the morning. And I think we did these kinds of things to do that.

But at the time he wanted it to spike higher. It may have been that you were too sleepy in the morning. I don't know the inverse relationship of why one would want to target to increase your cortisol level. But you don't want it to spike and then continue to spike. You want it to spike and then come down. This regulation of cortisol, usually that's over-indexing or is part of the stress response,

and that's what we've correlated cortisol to feeling stressed. Beauty, skin skin health nail health what are the ingredients that we should be focused on I'm someone that loves plump skin I want it youthful I want it to be looking glassy Michael doesn't know what I'm talking about with no wrinkles so what do we do for that can I cover this one just Yeah, sure. Just because I'm so passionate about it. So I'm scared of needles. So this was a passion project of mine and Nima's as well. And we looked at the skin health space and it's just, it was so, of all the categories, this one was filled with the most pseudoscience, I would say.

Very little clinical evidence, a lot of hype. And I would say there was two categories that became very popular, collagen and biotin. And when you look at collagen, for instance, the collagen industry is causing deforestation. Indigenous populations are being displaced and there's a lot of ethical concerns there and biotin a lot of times people are getting enough biotin and in the efficacy isn't as strong and so when we asked our customer like what do you want it was it was the plump skin it was the reduction in fine lines and wrinkles and we're like how do we achieve this when there's very few ingredients that actually have clinical studies and clinical evidence.

But I'm like, please create this for me as a mom of three and somebody that just wanted something that was highly efficacious. And when I first came to Neiman's team and the scientists on the team, they were like, no way. We are not touching this with a 10-foot pole. And I'm like, please look at the evidence and see if there's anything we can work with. And so Nima's team selected two ingredients that we're really excited about. One is a lower molecular weight hyaluronic acid from Japan. And the second is a ceramide glycolipid from an oil coming from France. And what's really exciting about these two ingredients is that we even conducted our own human clinical study. Again, not a requirement in the industry, but within 90 days, we saw a

reduction in crow's feet by over 300%. And it also improves smooth skin as well by 300%. So it actually really excited to not just leverage, I think we were talking about earlier ingredients that have their own human clinicals, but what's exciting for me is, is in, in kind of putting a stake in, in the ground in this category is really a commitment to having our own human clinical studies for every single one of our products by 2030. And this is such a good example of that, where we showed something above and beyond what we thought. How long does it typically take to get a full clinical study? It depends on the product. But is there something where there's a certain time that's required? Because when you say 2030, it sounds like,

oh, my brain, I just am like, why can't you do that right now? I know that's not that simple in business, but obviously I'm like, okay, that's a law. That's six years off. Yeah. We have several products where we've already completed human clinical studies that we've published. And so the goal is when you have a lot of products, we're pouring millions and millions of dollars. It's a funding thing too. It's a funding thing. It's when we release them. And I think to Neema's credit, what I'm really excited about is we partner with leading universities and research institutions. We're not just

doing a factory. There's different levels of clinical studies you can do. And we are partnering with leading research facilities. And his team is like, a lot of them do come from academia and they're excited to then go and like publish those studies in peer reviewed journals. So it's even, you know, when you look at, remember that pyramid to actually publish a study is next level because then you have more consensus in the scientific community. It's not just a study. People actually are looking at the results. What is a clinical study? The clinical study reminds me of when people say, oh, you know what they say. And it's like, who's they? I don't know who they is. Who is they? Who are these higher powers? They the clinical study is like the same like undertone.

It's like, what is a clinical study look like do they all look different what does that even mean did they take a bunch of college students and like well we were talking yeah we're talking to Whitney Cummings she's like the problem with a lot of these studies is like the people at the time that are signing up for this like she was saying she used to do it when she was like a broke college kid she's like I would have done anything for the money like what is clinical study and what are the what's the range of the clinical study? I'll let Neema speak to most of this, but one thing that our team saw an issue with the clinical studies that were being conducted is, A, they were not being run historically on women. And B, they were not being conducted with diverse populations, like people of color.

And especially when you're looking at products for like skincare, you want that. So those were like two key areas that were really highly important for us as a business. Yeah. I mean, you know, being in academia, right, and now in industry is a really unique perspective of what a clinical study means. So when I transitioned from academia to industry, it became really clear to me that companies were making products based on pseudoscience. And by that, I mean products that have no facts, no data, and no proof that the products work. So this really motivated me to pursue a career to raise a higher standard and clinical trials are part of that. Now, why clinical trials allow a consumer or somebody using a product to have transparency

and that transparency means facts, data and proof that a product works. So I think my perspective is that a clinical trial puts numbers on a product. There's more products on the market that don't have numbers on and this is doing a disservice. And the reason why that's important is that people's health are at stake. So we need clinical trials to help

counter two things. One is the efficacy of the product, knowing that the product works well for you, for your body without redundancy. And two, to make sure it's safe. There's a health cost by consuming something that is under-researched right or like not studied at all so clinical studies allow us it's the gold standard way to just put a product to work you know just get numbers on a product and ensure that we're getting the most out of that return and then providing that information whether to be to a scientific community or to a person that's interested in the health benefits that are being promised without just relying on claims. We're in a position right now where

claims are just not sufficient. People can just say whatever they want, but if they don't have numbers associated to it, if there's not data there, then I think one needs to be really skeptical. Yeah. No, I think that it's interesting to hear you say this because I think one needs to be really skeptical. Yeah, no, I think that it's interesting to hear like you say this, because I think this applies to basically everything, right? And I think, especially after the last few years, like I think people are waking up to the realization that you really do have to be your own advocate

and you really do have to kind of conduct your own research and you have to find companies that are doing this as well. You can't just, just because something's on a shelf doesn't mean it's safe for you, right? And like we, I mean, we'll go into a different category. We talk about cleaning supplies in the household all the time. I'm sure you're aware of this too. And I listened to that episode. Yeah. I mean, but it's just, it's this mind blowing thing where people just, they're like, well, what do you mean? I've been using this and these ingredients. And I thought like, they just assume that because it's in a store that it's okay for you. You know what grosses me out? And I feel like

I've spent 5% of my life thinking about this. The capsule. You can have a beautiful supplement, but if you don't have the right capsule around it, the capsule, where does it go is my first question. Is it just sitting in your stomach? It dissolves, right? Do you shit it out? What happens to the capsule? And then also, how do you find a supplement with a good capsule and what makes that capsule good? When I was starting Ritual, I was going all over California finding the best capsule manufacturer and I was disgusted. It's gross. So it was the best question because it was the thing that I was asking too. And as someone who is plant-based,

I know a lot of the capsules are made from gelatin. You care about the sourcing of the ingredients or your food, but no one is asking those questions of the capsule or the ingredients in the supplement. So the gelatin is coming from hooves and hides. And then I was asking like, is there an alternative? And it was like, oh, you can make it from fish. And I'm like, well, where's know is coming from hooves and hides and then I was asking like is there an alternative and it was like oh you can make it from fish and I'm like well where is the fish coming from and it's tilapia from Korea and I'm like well I wouldn't eat that and so what we

what we've done is we source our we have a plant-based capsule we actually run dissolution studies so we show how it gets released in a stomach environment. And so it does dissolve. You're not shitting it out, which I'm really proud of. And also it's important. Like sometimes we use a capsule that has a delayed release profile. Sometimes you don't, you want it to bypass the stomach. You don't want it to get, you don't want the nutrients to actually release in the stomach. You don't want them to get destroyed by the stomach environment. Like for instance, with probiotics, we ran a study and we show that it's a pre-pro postbiotic in the stomach. You don't want them to get destroyed by the stomach environment. Like, for instance, with probiotics, we ran a study and we show that it's a pre-pro postbiotic. It gets released in the colon, which is the ideal place for bacteria to thrive.

I'm with Skinny Confidential, like looking at all kinds of different powders and all kinds of different, just like electrolytes and all different kinds of things. And I'm shocked to find too that powders are full of filler. I couldn't believe all the information that I was learning about how much people, they want the jar to look bigger or the package to look bigger. So they add all this filler shit. What have you guys found with the filler stuff when it comes to creating protein powder? Well, so it's interesting. What we hope is that we have smaller amounts. It actually helps us if our capsules are smaller or we have less powder because it's a better consumer experience. But I hear you. I think when you don't have a lot of nutrients or things to deliver to the consumer, you probably want to pack that in with things that people don't actually need. It's crazy. I think the biggest issue that we've seen with protein isn't necessarily filler. It's actually where, for instance, the peas are being sourced from. So what is crazy is that

there's this crazy situation happening where there's actually dumping of organic peas coming from China into the U.S. And what we're doing is actually we're working with regenerative farms in the U.S. We work with a company called Puris where the quality of the peas actually matter. It's not enough to just be organic. Working with North American farmers is actually really important to things like heavy metals, to glyphosate, to all these things that are fundamental to people's health. And that's the basic. And then we're not worried as much about the fillers. We're worried about what are those

nutrients that actually people are consuming. That's right in the sense that there's not necessarily a filler problem, but I would argue that there's tons of ingredients in some of the protein powders on the market that are essentially fillers. When you think of those laundry proprietary lists of ingredients that are in protein powders where you can get 20, 30, 80 ingredients in a serving, this indicates filler because it's a glorified filler, right? Where you have pretty names on a sub-fat panel, but they don't confer a health benefit. And so I think that when it comes to the powder area, that pixie dust part of the equation is the one that probably needs to be addressed the most. As operators, this is like a tangent question. We don't have to call out anybody by name,

but as operators, when you guys are competing in market and you see, and we don't even have to name your competitors, that are maybe directly competitive, but are maybe not doing it right. What is the biggest frustration for you? Because I would imagine as you guys are developing quality products, doing all these studies, and then you have somebody that's maybe winning or competing in category, like what is, what are the things that frustrates you the most about that competition? Not even from like a dollar dollar perspective, but just like maybe somebody that you're competing with that you know is not doing it right, but just like maybe somebody that you're competing with that you know is not doing it right. Like what are the things that you,

they're cutting corners where you're like, okay, we're competing with somebody that's just not as good for the consumer. Yeah. I think that something that was, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. It came out of a personal need. I was pregnant with my first daughter of three girls. And it's so personal to me and that it's almost like we, it's important that we're doing things right on every level for me. So it's important that we're sourcing, you know, highest quality ingredients that were transparent around where they come from. We even list the suppliers on our site, which is really unique. And that's not even enough. And then the next layer for us is like, okay, what's the encapsulation? Is it delivering in the body? What's the technology that we're investing in? And that's

not even enough in the patents and everything like that. And then on top of that, we're investing in human clinical studies, which we're spending millions of dollars in proving the efficacy of our products. And so for me, on a personal level, I think it's important that we're checking every single box. And so while it's frustrating to me in these micro ways, you know, other brands might be doing things differently for, I just like focus on what is like the right thing that we should be doing as a company that makes me feel like I'm doing something, you know, positive in the world for my, for my kids and their future and in the entire supplement industry. And so I try to not, while it's frustrating, I try to not let it get to me, like all these like micro things that other brands are doing. Sorry, that's probably not what you want to hear.

What I was thinking is like, so we have a sex business, random, and it's all basically clean ingredients. It's like four ingredients, five ingredients in the product, right? It's clean. And what I was saying is like one of the frustrations, if you go through the aisles of a lot of these like drug stores, they're so dominated by the Johnson and Johnson's of the world where you know that there's like these unclean chemical products that are not great, but they dominate so much shelf space and have so much retail power that the consumer is basically like, oh, this must be in many cases, if they're not educated, the one because it's got so much. And to me, again, it's not a huge frustration,

but it's frustrating for me to think that somebody is going through and making a decision based on that instead of understanding the better for you products, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. That actually sparked something for me, which is like what is frustrating to me and I think is the future of not just this industry is that we're so focused on what our products now are made without that we've lost sight of what our products are made with. And I think the consumers become kind of confused, right? This is free of this. This is non-GMO. But what's in it? And how do you actually differentiate between that? And I think that is what we actually need to come back to is like, what's actually in here versus what does it not have yeah if someone wants to lose weight they're listening they want to tone up maybe they just had a baby maybe they just want to lose weight what would you guys recommend from i would like to hear from both of you because

you've had three kids cat and you're obviously have the doctor element so tell us what you would do yeah outside of like workout eat clean like all the sleep, all the basic stuff. I think we're just more supplementation standpoint. So it's not a category that we're in. So I would say this is like unrelated to ritual. So maybe more like personal. I've had three kids. You've had several kids.

And I think it is quite, quite personal. And for me, the number one thing for me was just always just feeling good about where I was at after having kids and running a business and like just feeling like, you know, confident in my body that's changed so much over so many years and being like, wow, I just birthed a human and I'm doing these things and like get comfortable with this amazing thing that, you know, body that, that allowed this to happen. Of course. And so I think once for me personally, once that kind of like clicked, it was really about like, how do I stay the healthiest? And some of the things that I've learned from, from Nima that have helped me feel like the healthiest in my body was actually

consuming more protein. I always thought that protein was something that people use to bulk up, but then I realized I wasn't getting enough protein, especially being kind of this plant-based eater and not regularly. I was eating a lot of beans and vegetables and then I was always hungry. And so figuring out what is that complete amino acid profile protein that you're getting in the right amounts, I think allowed me to stay fuller for longer and actually enjoy the food that I was eating throughout the day. And also fiber. I think a lot of people in the U.S. are under consuming fiber and fiber also is just like obviously fantastic for your body, but also helps you stay fuller longer. And so I don't know about, I don't know if I can speak

to losing weight just because it's not a claim we're making in any of our products, but a bit of a tricky one. Woo more play. You have to try this. You can eat it, lick it, suck it, fuck it. You can use it for all different kinds of things alone, with someone, with a friend, whatever you want to do. It's the best. Coconut oil has really helped me. I used to get UTIs. I don't anymore because there's something in the coconut oil, I swear, that is like really good for the bacteria. I love this lube. It's the only lube that I will use, but I also am a fan of their vibrators. Their vibrators are the best if you're looking to have some fun alone or with someone. Their vibrators are strong. The best part is, is not only are they like the best of the best, but they also come in this like almost like a toothbrush holder, but for your vibrator. So when you travel with it, it's not like next to your makeup or your skincare. It's

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And we'd love to see you out there. Lauren and I will both be there as well as some incredible hosts. See you there. Dr. Nima, you mentioned that you're really passionate about protein. We've talked about that a lot throughout this episode. What made you so passionate about it and how do you feel about it if someone's listening and wants to incorporate more? Yeah, what made me so passionate when Kat and I first met, my background is in muscle metabolism and physiology, right? So how nutrition,, how nutrition, drugs, exercise genetics can influence muscle mass. And a big part of my work at Harvard was on thinking about how to prevent age-related muscle loss, right? Or disease-related muscle loss. And this involves physical activity and it also

involves nutrition. And so my interest in protein resides on that nutrition part where the RDA for protein is pretty low, 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. And for people that are looking to maintain muscle mass or improve their quality of life, improve health span, knowing that there is a resistance as you get older to the protein and there's an insulin resistance also that comes into play, that this becomes a tool as part of maintenance of your musculoskeletal system so that was the interest in protein and then when it came to you know thinking about you know what we would want to do and what sort of products to who we would want to provide one was you know protein as an adjunct to nutrition with food first so

whether it be our multivitamins or our protein, we believe that people need to get their nutrients from food. And we use these as a tool, whether it be a supplement as a multivitamin or a supplement as a protein, as a way to bridge the gap. That's the interest in protein when it comes to pregnancy. There's increased protein demands in pregnancy by nature of being pregnant and postpartum. And this was an area that we thought there wasn't any good solution for women. We wanted to do it in a really clean way. So that was the interest in having a pregnancy postpartum focused protein product that is, you know, by all standards, one of the cleanest products on the market. And so, you know, those areas are kind of really interesting to me and

yeah, continue to pursue interest in protein for myself as I train and do marathons and whatnot. So it's a- How many marathons have you done? You've done like 20. Next week will be my sixth. Good for you. On this show, we've covered with many people, guys like yourself, very credentialed doctors and thought leaders around the topic of protein. And the general consensus is most individuals are not getting enough protein. Anisha, I think what we could dive into is you mentioned plant-based. Obviously, Lauren and I are animal-based. We actually don't care either way.

But I wonder if you've distinguished or thought about the differences between somebody that's on an animal-based diet and a plant-based and how each could still get efficient amounts of protein to sustain their muscle and protect themselves from a longevity perspective. Because some people, I'm not trying to convince everybody to eat animal or plant, but I am trying to convince everybody to eat more protein. Totally. I think the most important, I mean, I've spent a career at the top institutions studying protein and its impact on the human body and have been involved in a lot of research lines looking at both animal and plant-based proteins and its

impacts on muscle protein synthesis and then the adaptation of taking protein on the long run. And I think that my perspective is that I agree with you that protein intake itself is the most important, right? And then there comes a difference to what I take on the day and how efficient that protein is between animal and plant-based protein. I think the more that we've learned and some recent research indicates that plant-based proteins can be just as effective as animal if you ensure that it has the amino acid distribution to match. So not all plant proteins are created equal. No, there's absolutely suboptimal protein types that are plant-based and there's more optimal, more close to animal proteins. You can side by side, you know, test them. We favored the pea protein because of its amino acid distribution. And we use methionine to ensure

that, you know, from an amino acid profile that it stacks up to animal protein. And then, you know, in terms of a muscle protein synthesis response, by all intensive purposes, pretty equal. So I think this is really interesting. I think that, you know, there's a place for animal protein. It's highly, highly efficient, right? It's the most highly efficient with regard to absorption, but also in terms of stimulating protein synthesis response. The capability of a plant-based protein to do that without some of the gastrointestinal discomfort that some people experience or lactose intolerance that other people experience. And then for those that are kind of environmentally conscious and sustainability focused, this becomes a more attractive option to some. Yeah. And the reason I bring it up is because like I said, I think we share our experiences and obviously it's more animal

based, but I imagine some of our listeners and viewers would get frustrated if they are plant based. And I think that my thing is like, make sure you have an option with the proper amino profile so that you can at least get the proper protein. Because what you don't want is a bunch of people running around not getting protein, running around hungry, not being able to sustain muscle, all of those things. Amino acids are really so important, huh? I think we've had so many smart people on this podcast talk about the importance of amino acids, but I think it's not, it's almost needs better PR. Yeah. It has a PR problem. It has a PR problem. Well a pr problem like well i just think

people get overwhelmed with like wait first i need more protein and they're like what a protein with amino and they're like what the hell does that mean and it's again it was just people just kind of like i'm giving up but a lot of people also go plant-based like i was plant-based for you know i'm plant-based and i was started like 15 years ago and i I would say like, I was gaining weight. I was hungry all the time. And I was like, what is going on? And then I think when I started like understanding the amino acid situation and I started to understand that like, oh, I can't just eat beans or I can't just eat rice. Like you actually, to be plant-based and to feel satiated and to start like feeling if you're working out every day and you're not seeing any muscle definition, like something is wrong. And so what I learned was like you do have to mix different types of food groups to achieve that or you have to incorporate complete amino acid protein in your diet.

And then I like for me, I was like like, oh wow, I'm starting to see definition in my arms versus doing all the right things. What is going on in my body? And I think being plant-based, if you choose to do so is, is hard. It's like hard work to make sure that you are, you know, not impacting like, you know, your bones and, and some of the things that really matter. And it's, it's actually like, it actually takes a lot of effort. Whereas, you know, your bones and some of the things that really matter. And it's actually like, it actually takes a lot of effort. Whereas, you know, eating a piece of meat, assuming it's, you know, good quality is probably a lot easier because it has that complete amino acid profile. What do you guys think about with kids? And you have three daughters. What do you think about

when it comes to supplementation for children? It is really challenging. Gummies are such a challenging format. I think having been on the manufacturing and product side where you are trying to include so many different nutrients that kids need and in the right dosages, in the right forms, in this matrix to ensure like high quality standards is really, really challenging. And it makes me think twice about giving my kids other supplement brands.

Just because you've seen under the hood of what's required. So what do you give your kids? Are you giving them supplements? Not much, no. So you're supplementing through food? I'm supplementing through food. So there's not a brand that you're like, holy shit, this brand's doing it right. Everyone needs to go get it.

No. God, that's such a bummer. I think the other issue- And why can't you guys do it? Yeah, I know. Because we're so focused- Why did you stop doing it just because it was- We're stopped doing it because we're so focused on women's health. And I would say the issue that I have with a lot of other,

you know, kids supplement brands isn't even just the nutrients. It's actually the sugar. So either the gummies have way too much sugar that I don't, you know, I even talked to our kids, dental pediatrician, like don't give your kids gummies because they're getting stuck in their teeth. And I'm seeing kids coming in here with cavities. So I was like, whoa, that's crazy. And then when you look at some of the brands out there, they have sugar alcohols and other things that I personally wouldn't consume myself. And there's not really that much. There's not really that many studies on some of these sugar alternatives in kids. So it makes it really tricky because it's like, do you give them sugar

or do you give them erythritol, which is having some really negative studies out there? I know the studies are questionable. It makes it really, really tricky. I do a rebrand of the water. I have cookie water, which is electrolyte water. I have candy water, which is amino water. I have chocolate water or vanilla water which is protein water and then I have watermelon water which is colostrum water and so they get to pick which candy cookie watermelon chocolate vanilla they want and then it becomes their idea and they get a little maybe that's a your next business I think for parents out there it's an idea you know, like having sodas and these juices with all that stuff, like who knows if this is a better alternative, but like, we know we don't want to care.

Like we don't drink sodas in the house and to have a bunch of stuff and juices and sugars and stuff. So it's like, I'd rather have them, you know, like today I made a protein shake. But Michael's making a protein shake, like fun, a fun activity, which I think is really strategic of you. I don't know if you did that on purpose, but my son like looks forward to his like muscle milk with his dad and they do it together. And I think that if, whether you're plant-based and you're having your protein or you're not plant-based, like there's a way to like incorporate the kids into the health.

So they see you doing it. Well, it's hard to get kids even it's like i watch now as a father it's hard to get even the kids to eat the proper amount of protein because you can put meat or chicken or whatever whatever protein source on the table and they're always trying to get around it and go to other things so i'm like okay even if i can get them another five or ten grams of protein supplementally somehow i do a little lie i'm like oh eggs grow your hair and nails oh yeah but our son's like i don't care the vegetables make your eyes bright i love like I do a little lie. I'm like, ooh, eggs grow your hair and nails. Ooh. Yeah, but our son's like, I don't care. The vegetables make your eyes bright.

I love like rebranding something. My kids love that. And they repeat it too. Like I will tell them, I'm like, oh, this is vitamin A. And I even, I went to my daughter's school and I taught them about all the different vegetables. And they were like, all the kids were like grabbing the seaweeds and the carrots because the rebrand of vegetables is awesome.

I mean, I have three girls, their diets are so different. They come from the same household. One of my daughters just wants steak all the time. And I'm like, it's fascinating because I don't obviously eat steak, but- What's her blood type? I don't know. I bet you her blood type,

maybe it could be different than yours. I have another question for you guys. How do you two work together? Is it one of those things where you have a need or an idea and you run into his lab and say, I need this? Or is it, hey, you get interested in something like protein or whatever, and then you go? How do you two decide which products and which avenues to start developing? Kids vitamins, please. Kids vitamins. Yeah. I got really into working out and weightlifting and strength training. you two decide which products and which avenues to start developing kids vitamins please kids vitamins yeah i'll be like i got really into working out and weight lifting and strength training and like we geek out about that and then i'll like run into you know his office or just

call him up and be like i was in so much pain and then i took this and it worked what do you think so that's kind of i would say that's kind of how it starts and then he's like that's bullshit but i don't know if you would agree neva we have a really good relationship and i think that's what's been so rewarding just working with somebody that you know genuinely as a founder you know values this sort of science rationale like i'm sort of speaking for you here cat but cat's a mathematician you know by training so she has this sort of speaking for you here, Kat, but Kat's a mathematician by training. So she has this sort of affinity for data and numbers and whatnot. So she kind of wants to get to that when she's asking for a certain benefit, which is, I think, why we get on quite well when it comes to innovation thinking.

And we both share a perspective that we want to think through problems first before we get to solutions. So between us, I think Kat does a better job than I of understanding the consumer problem, the market problem and what she sees. I think she's on the front lines of Erwan. And then I do put my physiological problem set together and we have just great discussion around that often has ended up in the products that you see on the market, dedicating thought and teams thinking as well. So yeah, we kind of work like that. It might be her calling me or vice versa, but we tend to have our one-on-one discussions around what problems we can solve.

So are the challenges sometimes you see a problem in the market, but you guys have to kind of meet in the place where like there's an actual solve. Is that accurate to say? That is pretty accurate. I would say Yuma is the ultimate skeptic. So then I have to try to get him to like, like, Hey, I'm like, just look into it a little bit more. Cause I feel like it's working, you know? Um, and so, and then sometimes that, that that pays off very rarely but it is like it is like a push and pull and then I would say what what I love working with Nima over the last six plus years is that his like integrity is so intact and I think that in this category where you know consumers have to be their own advocates and are like, is this safe? Is this effective? And then you have a partner that's like, oh, I want to run

more stability on this. I want to, even though that's fine, like I want to, you know, with probiotics, for instance, like I want to see what it's like, you know, where a lot of companies will list the CFUs or the probiotics that manufacturing is like, I want to see at the end of shelf life, like let's push, let's push the standards when it comes to quality. Because I don't know, I'm not a scientist, I might have a math background, but I'm not a scientist. I'm just like advocating for the consumer or for myself. And he's like, this is how it's done, but this is how I would do it. And this is the right thing to do. And so I appreciate that. And I think it's really rare.

What I found having been in this industry for a long time, it's really rare. I've got one more question. I didn't want to jump in, but this is just to follow up with Nima. I think consumers have not only lost faith in what's on the products, but they've also lost a lot of faith in some of the experts behind the products. And I think you coming from academia, the last few years we've gone through, there's a lot of doctors and scientists and academics where they've done things that they're now out of integrity and the consumers are now like, okay, now we can't only trust

what's on the shelves, but the people that are providing us, how do you feel about that? Because speaking on integrity, I think there's some people both in the academic world and in the medical world that have fallen out of integrity. And I wonder how you feel about that? Because speaking on integrity, I think there's some people both in the academic world and in the medical world that have fallen out of integrity. And I wonder how you feel about that. I think it's a really interesting time. I mean, we talk about science and data and everything, right? But there's also science washing at play, right? As well. So even within scientific groups or publications and data, like there are good studies and bad ones, right? And so it's even hard to filter between good and bad there.

But, you know, I believe that there is a consumer group that ultimately values the science method, meaning there's people that will value data over just promise. And so I think that yes, there's going to be some skepticism as there should be, I kind of encourage that. And there's got to be a lens and a filter from discerning between good and bad, everybody. But I do think to discern between good and bad comes science and training and dedication. I think having come from that world, I think that I've benefited personally from spending time and doing those studies and learning a scientific structure and a method and putting that into practice right through test, that allows me to come up with a different perspective when it comes to designing a product

or coming up with a clinical, coming up with an exercise intervention, right? With the view that outcomes are important. And so I hope that consumers can not only be the chief health officer of their household, but can also wear the chief science officer hat as well in the household to start to be able to discern between good and bad.

I think that comes with a little bit of fact checking and we're going to have much more access. You've got chat GPT now on your fingertips and you can put a dose in and see, are there studies behind that dose in this form? Consumers have not had that access before, but we're getting into a period where I think information access will be more relevant. And I think the more brands putting investment in research and clinical and science, those ones have more, in my opinion, durability.

Well, so I'm not a scientist or a doctor. I would say I'm an entrepreneur, similar to you, Kat. And I think what's similar to entrepreneurship and scientists is that we go in with assumptions based on how we think the business is going to operate and how successful it's going to be. And then based on the data and the feedback from the market, we either have to say we were right or we have to adjust. And what I love about science, the same thing is like, there's these things, and I promise I won't go down a rabbit hole here, was like, trust the science. To me, science is all about continuing to do the experiment to get to what the real thing was. And it's not, to me, science is not, it's an ever-evolving study of a thing. It's not just like, does that make sense? And the science in one day. But meaning like, it's like, to me, like even- Trust the science after one day but meaning like it's like to me like even i think the science after one day thing if there's a parallel between entrepreneurship and science is that it's an ever-evolving thing that's always changing based on feedback and data that presents itself yeah i'm i would just add a hundred

percent agree and i think that's why you know i feel like scientists have a reputation being very fixed right science is not to just look back at what has been done can't be right otherwise you know we just become stationary science has an innovation element a creative element too to think of a hypothesis or think of questions to answer right and come up with a way to measure that and i think to your point that evolution aspect of that thinking is kind of, it's cool because that results in different perspective. You know, 10 years ago to today, scientists' outcomes and thinking were very different. I mean, there was a time people thought that not bathing was healthy for you, right?

Like in that, like if you just never bathed, like that you would never get, you know what I mean? So I just think that's a perfect example of science evolving over time. You get more information, like, okay, there's a better way to update. Or that staying inside and staying home was the right i said we won't get on the rabbit hole um no but i was with someone on neiman's team yesterday a scientist and and like literally her job is to update our claims because there's studies coming out every single day so she's looking at new postpartum claims and new pregnancy claims as we have all these products

but there's always new studies that come out around the ingredients. And so I think that's so fascinating that there's always more you can say and more that these products can do, and it's just kind of staying up to date with that. I think a good example is choline. Choline only recently became an essential nutrient, and then we were working with one of the top scientists at Cornell, Dr. Marie Caudill, who's on our advisory board.

She recently ran a study that showed the impact that having choline during pregnancy and postpartum that it had on adolescent brain development. So like mom's choline impact on things like processing speed up to like seven and eight years. And so we're like, whoa, this is so new and exciting. Like, let's make that into a product. And so we made a natal, this is so new and exciting. Like let's make that into a product. And so we made a natal choline, even though there was like no market for it. And now it's just off the charts, like has exploded. I think it's a sign of intelligence

to evolve your opinion. And I think if you can't devolve your opinion, maybe you should look inward. I have, I go ahead. No, no, no. I was just going to say, as it relates, because like we will do this show and some of the pushback again, because Lauren and I are like, we're not credentialed. If that makes sense. And we don't have PhDs. We're not dangerous. Yeah.

But the point is, is like sometimes people will say, well, you have to just take anything. A credentialed person says as like the authority and face value. And it's to your point, it can't just be backwards looking. You have to be forward looking in. And it's to your point, it can't just be backwards looking. You have to be forwards

looking. And it's a lot of academics, a lot of doctors are very intelligent and have been right on many things, but there also have been some instances where people have been wrong. It's actually like the biggest pain point in my marriage, I would say, because my husband, I argue about this all the time where he will go to a doctor or a pediatrician and they'll say, you know, do the X, Y, Z for your kid or your health. He's like done. And I'm like, I literally, the first thing I do is like go on Google or Poe, which is the AI tool that I use. And I'm like, these are the reasons why I wouldn't give this to like, let's ask this question. And in like, and then it causes a fight, but I'm like, I don't know. And my core, I've is raised like as a skeptic and To not trust anything. And so even though we work really closely with the medical community and healthcare practitioners, like I just think that

You know, I think it's always important to like have a dialogue With your healthcare provider and and not just always take everything as face value. I definitely agree with you I think if we haven't learned that in the last five years, I don't know what to say. Before we go, tell us something that you're both interested in that has nothing to do with supplements or anything we just talked about. It could be a book, a podcast that you really like, something that you're interested in randomly. I'll give you, Michael and I just took started to take a huge interest in tennis like we're we're like going hard for tennis in the last year we're super competitive with each other something that's fun that that you guys are both interested in

i'm interested in a lot of things that's the problem i think i'm really interested i think i got really interested in in fitness um and i think not before no not at all really no i wouldn't picture that um not in this way i think because i i mean i played sports and things like that but like to me like i literally can't go a day without working out or or i feel like my mental health is at stake. And I've gotten to a place where like it is like the foundation of my life. And that never happened before, I think, because I was so connecting working out to physical health and what I looked like. And then when I changed that to, I know we talked about cortisol in the morning, like it literally chills me out throughout

the day. And if I don't have that, it impacts my whole day. And so I've become kind of like a student of all kinds of, all kinds of exercise. I, I'm really passionate about actually kind of bringing back old school forms of like exercises that I feel like are going to go extinct, like classical Pilates. Now it's become a lot more, you know, contemporary and everything's becoming more modern where you look at yoga and everything's a little bit more modernized. But I love like the 26 and 2 and the kind of ancient practices. And I'm like, how do I like bring back the old? Because there was some wisdom in movements and how these things connect. So that's something I'm, I don't know, I've become a kind of a student.

And I think it, even though it's not related to ritual, I think it impacts how I think about supplements, how I think about like, you know, we had a tagline for the real bodybuilders where it wasn't what you would expect bodybuilders to be. It was like the women and moms that were like pregnant or having babies were the bodybuilders. And I don't know,

it's just really deeply resonated with me. It was like this really foundation of life. I think also thinking about on the verge of perimenopause and what strength training does for your real body. Yeah. I have a rule personally. I don't know if I've told Lauren this rule, but if anyone in my family or personal life comes to me crying about how they feel or their problems or they're depressed or anxious or sad, and I ask them, do you work out at least three or four times a week consistently every week? If the answer is no, I will not talk to them about their problem until they do that for a month. Because I don't think people realize, to your point, a lot of these issues of anxiety and stress and anxiousness and depression, if you go out and get active and work on yourself, it's not even a physical thing. It's the mental thing.

Do that for a month and then come back to me. Most of the time that people start doing that, they don't come back like, oh, I feel great now. When you're just sitting around, you're not moving your body. You're just inviting problems into your life. Dr. Nima, what are you interested in? It's pretty boring that my interests are within health. So boring. But it's probably true. So funny enough, I play tennis as well.

I think after this marathon, I promised my wife that this will be the last and I promised Kat too. He always says he's going to retire from doing marathon. Then he did like Tokyo and I was doing Berlin. Why do you have to stop? What's the... Like an addiction. You know, these gray hairs, you know, there's only so much mileage this body can can take but uh you got it

no i mean it's been a great um it's been a great period i love this sort of applied physical nature just putting some sports science into like what i do whether it's tennis or or running um but i think the physical activity part for me is the most interesting thing that I'm like getting into and just applying it to myself so with sports it's been you know how I can help improve my limits when it comes to the way that I exercise to prevent injury or the way that I might fuel myself to get to a certain distance and I think one of the most exciting areas most recently has been applying this to my own family with regards to like their healthy aging so how I can sort of come up and help with

you know some knowledge base and thought but really have it kind of used by whether it be my mother or my father or, you know, even trying to, you know, coax my wife to like train with me in certain ways. But that for me has really helped sort of like an exciting interest area. And, you know, that equates to like health span, right. And quality of life for those that are near and dear to me. Yeah. I mean, like you, if anyone that has aging parents and you see them start to get frail and it's like, it's hard to watch and if you can convince them to go and do this stuff, it just changes their life. And also, and I'll just say this one more time. You have, I don't know if you have kids, but you have kids. I don't. I don't understand. I do have a dog. It is so much

carrying shit and moving shit and picking up the kids in awkward positions and cribs and this and strollers. And today when my daughter asked my husband to give her a ponytail, the ponytail, he did the wrong. It was not high enough. Then it was too low. But I think about this. And since I was dealing. It's like the ponytail had to be just right.

I think about this all the time as a parent. I consider myself to be in decent shape. And I was like, man, if I wasn't in shape, how would I ever do all this stuff? Getting in cars and playing. it's, it's so much actual, like they call it dad strength. And it's because I think you get that strength from all of the awkward positions of carrying things in a way that you just like, you don't carrying a dumbbell in a gym is not the same as like leaning over to pick up a kid. Even like when I see moms, I'm like, okay, that one, it's just like carrying the kid on the side. on the side. It's a lot of physical activities. I can't imagine being out of physical shape and trying to do all

this. It's just got to be so exhausting for people like that. You guys gave us a code. Code TSC30. You guys are giving us 30% off. Wow. That's a lot. I know. I should talk to the team. Oh my God. Ritual.com slash TSC 30. You get 30% off your first month. I personally, if I were on there shopping for myself, I've been taking your multi through every stage of my journey, including my pregnancies, your prenatal, your postnatal. I love, love, love the multi, but I would also try the skin supplement, you guys. I mean, it's first of all, the bottle's amazing. The daily skin hydration. I would try this product, especially since you guys gave us 30% off. Can we do a giveaway of all you and my favorites? Yeah, let's do it.

Hey, all you guys have to do is follow at ritual on Instagram and tell us your favorite part of this episode on my latest post at Lauren Bostic. Where can everyone reach out to both of you if they have questions? I think just Ritual at Ritual on Instagram and we'll find them. And I'm excited that we now sell at Target. We're at Whole Foods. We're on Amazon. We're at Ritual.com. It's like we're everywhere. And we're just, it's amazing to see that people are really like buying into higher quality products. I'm a huge fan, forever fan. I wanted you guys back on. I know Nima, this is your first time,

but Kat, it's so fun. You guys go listen to our first episode with Kat and go to ritual.com slash TSC30. Thank you both. Two things before you go, you can watch us now on YouTube. So you can go on YouTube, search The Skinny Confidential and watch our entire episodes on your computer or TV.

Also, you should know Michael and I are doing a him and her newsletter. So basically, it's a him and her tip of the day, five days a week. And the tips are very specific, as you can imagine. And then we also have a monthly favorites. So basically we collect all our monthly favorites, everything we've bought and used and tried and put it in one monthly newsletter for you to sign up for that. Go to shop skinny confidential.com and sign up for the newsletter. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time.