The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - What Is Toxic Positivity? Ft. Whitney Goodman, Psychotherapist & Author

Episode Date: January 27, 2022

#430: On today's episode we are joined by Whitney Goodman. Whitney is a psychotherapist and author of the new book "Toxic Positivity". Today Whitney joins the show to discuss the concept of toxic positivity and how it can potentially impact our lives in the wrong way. We also discuss how to recognize toxic positivity and what to do when it happens in our own lives.  To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc No one knows what you’re looking for in a doctor better than you. And no one’s better at giving you the tools to find the perfect doctor than Zocdoc. Zocdoc is a FREE app that shows you doctors who are patient-reviewed, and take your insurance. Search for a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. Go to www.Zocdoc.com/skinny and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. search for a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours and are available when you need them. This episode is brought to you by Cymbiotika Cymbiotika is a health supplement company, designing sophisticated organic formulations that are scientifically proven to increase vitality and longevity by filling nutritional gaps that result from our modern day diet. Use code SKINNY at checkout for 15% off your first purchase at www.cymbiotika.com (this is in addition to custom bundle discounts, so people can get 45% off) This episode is brought to you by Sakara This year, turn your resolutions into reality. Whether you’re looking to try plant-based eating, build an empowered body, boost skin’s glow, or simply feel your very best, Sakara makes it easy to create rituals that last. Sakara is a wellness company rooted in the transformative power of plant-based food. Their menu of creative, chef-crafted breakfasts, lunches, and dinners changes weekly, so you’ll never get bored. And it’s delivered fresh, anywhere in the U.S. And right now, Sakara is offering our listeners 20% off their first order when they go to www.sakara.com/skinny and enter code SKINNY at checkout. Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

I noticed it on social media and then I started really like paying attention to it in sessions. And I noticed that a lot of my patients were saying like, I know I shouldn't complain, but I should be grateful. But and I was like, God, they're saying this in therapy. The one place where you shouldn't really be able to complain. There must be such a pressure to not seem negative. And there's always like qualifiers about feeling things. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show. That clip was from our guest of the show today, Whitney Goodman. Whitney is a psychotherapist and most recently the author of the book, Toxic Positivity, keeping it real in a world obsessed

with being happy. And this was an interesting conversation. I got to be honest, when we first were getting pitched this concept of having Whitney on to discuss toxic positivity, I had resistance towards the subject. I don't know if Lauren, if you did or didn't. But personally, I don't know, for some reason, the topic just felt like it hit a nerve. And as you'll hear when we get into this episode, I think this topic hits a nerve with culture, society in general. And after having the conversation, I'm glad we did because we understand the nuances of the idea of what he's expressing a little bit more. And I think it's a conversation that's worthwhile for everybody to kind of listen to. You and I talked about this,

but when something hits a nerve for me, I try to lean into it and see why it's hitting a nerve. So to have her on and hear where she's coming from with this theory was really interesting. We're also going to have on some of the people that I think that she's referring to in this book. So for us, as always, it's about getting all different sides. Like we want to see the whole 360, not just 180. Yeah, and make no mistake, I found this conversation

and Whitney very compelling, very interesting. It's definitely worth a listen. It's definitely worth your time, even if this subject of toxic positivity hits a nerve, whether positive or negative. So with that, Whitney Goodman, welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her show. This is the Skinny Confidential, him and her. All right. Well, Lauren's getting her shit together because I'm already ready to roll. You're being toxic. I'm starting out toxic. Toxic positivity. I want to get, we're going to debate this. I said, I'm going to probably learn something on the show. I wonder if I'm a perpetrator. I wonder if I'm going to recognize myself in anywhere here, but

to give a brief one, an introduction to yourself, but also blanket kind of definition where we can start. How would you, how would you define toxic positivity? So toxic positivity is the unrelenting pressure to be happy and positive all the time, no matter what the circumstances. You should always be pursuing that. And we do it to ourselves, to other people. So it's like that meme of the dog with the house on fire and he's like, everything's fine. Exactly. Whoa, is my dad toxic positivity? I don't know. But I mean, is it toxic positivity?

No, I love my dad. He's just optimistic. He always sees the glass half full. Okay. So how do you distinguish them between, you know, somebody who's like an eternal optimist and somebody who's toxically positive? So positivity and optimism are not toxic. It's something that becomes toxic, right? So we have to look at the timing, the audience, and the topic that you're talking about. So the timing matters, like are they in distress in that moment? Is there something really difficult going on? What is the person going through? What's the topic that you're discussing? And does this person like what you're talking about? So you just mentioned your dad. No, I love my dad. He's optimistic. That might not be bad for you. It's not toxic in that situation. But we have to

think about like what's actually helpful for this person now. When can you pinpoint a moment in time, like go way back before you wrote this book, where you experienced toxic positivity, but didn't have a word to use for it? I think like my whole life. I mean, my parents were definitely perpetrators of this. Like I remember growing up, it was like, just smile, be happy. You know, like it doesn't matter what's going on. You need to have a good attitude about anything. Like I feel like my parents' generation wasn't big into feelings. It was more just like, how can we get through this

and like get you to the other side? Give me a specific example. Like you're at school and your mom tells you to just go. Like give me a specific niche example. Yeah. So I don't know. Like if I was fighting with girls at school or something,

let's say like in middle school and I came home and I would be like, mom, I'm upset this is happening. She's like, but so many other people love you. You don't need to worry about that. It's okay. And not really make space for me to complain about it. This is so interesting that you say this because the last two guests that we have had on the podcast have reiterated how important it is for a parent to make space for the child to just talk. So first, Maria Shriver said she has four children. She says she always talks to them about how she says, tell me more when they're talking instead of telling them it'll be OK, it'll be fine. Then we just had a really cool therapist on that said the same thing that you just said to not make space for your children is is toxic, she said. Exactly. So and that's really what toxic

positivity is, right? It's like shutting down the conversation saying, I don't want to hear any more about this. And like, can we just make everything OK so that I don't have to sit in this discomfort with you? Do you think that it has to do with parents kind of just not wanting to deal with it and sweep it under the rug so they don't have to take it on? I mean, for sure. And there's this pressure of like, you want your kid to be happy. That's what every parent says, right? I just want a happy kid. I just want you to be happy. So when we see our kid in distress, you don't want them to feel like that. It's uncomfortable for you. And you get pushed into that. I just want to fix this mode.

So what's the opposite of toxic positivity? So I think radical acceptance is a really great way of looking at what the opposite is, right? So I can accept what is, make room for like how shitty it is, how terrible it is, and also say things could get better or I could be optimistic about the future. It's also just about like making room for the full experience and trying to seek understanding rather than just putting a blanket on it. You're very, very popular on Instagram. You have a huge following and it seems like your message is really resonating with

a lot of people. Why do you think now more than ever people are attracted to this subject? So I think during the pandemic, there was like this resurgence of positive thinking that I saw online where it was like, we're all in this together. Just smile. Wait, what's the video? The imagine all the people. And they were like in their mansion. It's like, we're all in this together. Like we are not. You got to love the lack of self-awareness, though. That was like kind of amazing. The intention was right, I feel like. I don't even know if the intention was right. But so go on. So that's a perfect example, though, of toxic positivity. Right. So

during the pandemic, we see all this happening and i think people were like seriously you want me to be positive during this like global pandemic where i have no idea what's next you want me to show up to work be smiling not ask questions and i think people are getting really sick of that it's not attainable and it hasn't worked up to this can i ask you a counter question though so let's let go with that theme, but say, okay, the alternative then is maybe wallowing a little bit more and being like, okay, this is terrible and the world is ending and my life is over. And I guess the question I'm asking is which of the two roads do you go down if you want to try to progress in life, right?

Because I mean, and I understand the nuances here, but I think like that's, I think that's the balance, right? It's like, you're in a really shitty situation. It's not great. We're not going to lie and say that it's great. But at the same time, you don't want to go into this pit of despair that you can't dig yourself out of. My morning routine starts with a lot of light. I open the shades and then I go downstairs and I make a water situation. And my water situation is pretty specific. It is ice, water. I like ice water, not warm. Lemon, mint, maybe some ginger slices. And then I always add chlorophyll drops. And the ones that I use are by Sakara Life. I have showed you guys these on Instagram stories. They're called detox drops and they have chlorophyll in them. And it's really interesting

because I got my blood tested the other day and my doctor, Dr. Daryl, told me that my blood cells were looking amazing thanks to chlorophyll. The benefits of chlorophyll are so nourishing. Go Google them. You will be blown away. And I think it's such an easy thing to add to your day-to-day. I just do a couple of drops. It makes all the difference. I also like their beauty drops. It comes in a packet. And if you're curious about Saqqara Life, you have to look into them. So they're a wellness company anchored in food as medicine and on a mission to nourish your body through the power of plants. So not only do they have the drops, they also have tons of functional wellness essentials and organic ready-to-eat meals that are delivered straight to your door,

which are amazing, especially if you're into eating foods that help boost your energy, support your digestion, and curb sugar cravings. I'm a huge fan of this company. I even interviewed the founders. I really respect what they're doing. And right now, Saqqara is offering all listeners 20% off your first order when you go to saqqara.com slash skinny or enter code skinny at checkout. That's saqqara, S-A-Q-A-R-A.com slash skinny to get 20% off your first order. Sakara.com slash skinny. For sure. And I think that's where most people go when they hear this concept, right? It's like, then the opposite side must be just sitting in negativity. And I think what we have to remember is that if you acknowledge what's happening, give yourself room to feel that. It's way easier to get

to this side of being positive, being optimistic. We actually tend to feel worse and maybe even wallow more when people tell us we shouldn't be feeling something or we can't be upset or we try to show it up. Those feelings also just end up coming out in another way. So in a way, it's acknowledging the feelings, the situation. But then like, so what's the next tactical step? Let's say you're like, okay, this is fucking terrible. This is a really shitty situation. I don't feel great. I'm depressed. I am fearful. I am going to lose my job or I'm going to, you know, whatever. And then what are the steps then you can take to kind of like not stay in that place? Because I think the cautionary tale I'm trying to highlight is what happens if you get stuck

in that place for a prolonged period of time? So what I like to try to figure out is where do you have control? So if you feel like everything's terrible, nothing can improve from here, all right, what do I have control over in my day-to-day life or in my immediate circle that could help me? And that might be something that you could do right then to help yourself feel better. It might be someone you can reach out to, whatever it is. But we all have some control over our situation. And from there, you can figure out, all right, what do I need to get access to next?

What do I need to do? And really go into like problem solving mode instead of just wallowing. If we try to just act like everything's fine, perfect, we miss out on that problem solving piece. It's like that dog sitting in the fire. Like he's going to burn to death. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

You know, he's got to think about like, where can I get a hose or like, how can I fix this? That makes total sense. Instead of just acting like everything's perfect and everything's great, acknowledging it. I think I'm somewhere in the middle between all this. And I don't know what that is called. I don't know if there's a word for it. Have you been asked if there's a word for it? Like, I think with the pandemic, like, yeah, it sucks. But like Michael said, you know, like, let's make the best of it. This is our way of thinking. Let's make the best of it. Let's try to let's try to look at what is good about this. So but what when does it sort of cross the line to being toxic? It crosses the line when it's dismissive. And that could be like to yourself or somebody else.

So if you notice that this type of thinking is empowering for you to say, this sucks, but how can we think about it in a good way? That's great. That doesn't sound toxic. Right. Now, if somebody is sharing with you, like, I'm having a really hard time with the pandemic, I'm feeling depressed, it's hard. And you're just like, you really just need to look on the bright side. Like this isn't that bad. And you need to think about what you're grateful for, that might cross into like toxic territory because that person's clearly trying to share with you how they're feeling and be vulnerable in that moment. I was toxically positive last night. Now that you're pointing this out, my friends and my friends, Erica, love you, was texting me something

that was really bothering her. And I told her and I'm looking back, this is like probably not the right thing to say. I said, you need to shift your mindset, like change your mind, change your life. And maybe what I should have done looking back, just being reflective and holding myself accountable, I should have just listened to her. I think that would always be the best option. My outlook is that there are literally thousands upon thousands of mindset-shifting things out there. People have these tools at their fingertips. There's something that's getting in the way of them using them. And I think a lot of it is just because we want to feel heard, understood, and validated, and then we can pick up those tools.

She probably already knew, like, yeah, my mindset kind of sucks right now. When you were writing the book, was there certain people that you had in mind throughout the whole book? We don't have to get into who they were, but was there people that you... Archetypes. Yeah. Was there archetypes that you went for, male or female, as you were writing it? Yeah. I mean, I was thinking a lot about like motivational speakers, MLM type leaders, religious figures tend to engage in a lot of this and even like politicians too. I really think we see it everywhere. Wait, how do we see it in religion and politics? So toxic positivity really got its start in religion because that was like

the main cultural force, right? And now we've see it more in like these big evangelical like mega churches where a lot of the preachers will be like, God is positive. So you should be positive too. Or God wants you to be rich and happy. Like that's the new messaging. Or like my wrist is hanging broken and they're like, just believe in the God. No, I think one that I could really point to that I've seen and I heard Colton from The Bachelor talking about this

is that he grew up in a church circumstance where he was told it was bad to be gay. And he was gay, but he could never acknowledge it. He ended up going on The Bachelor and dating like 25 women and suppressing who he was gay, but he could never acknowledge it. He ended up going on The Bachelor and dating like 25 women and suppressing who he was because he was told by his church that he couldn't be gay. And if you were gay, like God will fix you.

And like... Is that toxic positivity or is that like... Well, yeah, because it's telling you if you're gay, like they can fix you. Right. It's also just, I think toxic positivity comes from this belief that we can do anything with our thoughts, that we can change anything. We can have full control over our life. And that's, I think, the angle you're talking about, right?

It's like, if you could just think your way out of it, it wouldn't be true. And you'll be better. I think maybe I'll put some words in your mouth here. So tell me if you disagree with these archetypes. I personally have always struggled with the 25, 30, 35-year-old life coach who's telling you how to change your life, but whose business is selling you

on how to change your life. And when you look under the surface, there's not an actual business that they've built outside of the business of selling you that you can build a business or better your life. And I think people have to be very careful. I don't have to say the names or whatever of people like that because, you know, there's a, there's a, like, say you want to start a business. Like the people that I'm going to look to are the people that have actually built a real business

with a real team and a real infrastructure. Like maybe I'll go read their book or listen to their talk because they have the world experience. But I think the other type of character is a lot of rah-rah, hype you up, get you feeling empowered, get you feeling good. But it's maybe toxic in the way that what they're doing is they're just selling you on something that they haven't actually done themselves. Yeah, a thousand percent. And most of these people, in my experience, exclude every other factor except your mindset. It doesn't matter who your parents are, where you grew up, where you went to school, anything else you had access to. It's all just about like you need to think positive and then you'll be successful. And that's pretty much always the recipe.

I also think too that where my problem lies is that a lot of the people that I think a lot of us are referring to prey on the weak. And, you know, what I've tried to do with our platform is like just everyone, like I want everyone to like sort of be inclusive and be the best version of themselves, but not like I feel like they like actually strategically target the weak people. And that bothers me. Yeah, when we say weak to it, we mean people that are the most mentally vulnerable at that time. Sure. Like they're most willing to depart with their dollars

or their attention or their time. Or like the divorced mother or like someone who's postpartum. As you know, seven months postpartum, you're in a vulnerable state. Like I feel like there's certain people that go for that. Or like you lost your job or even with the pandemic. I've seen this. Oh, you're in a pandemic. You don't like your job. Like they like almost use the pandemic to their advantage to make money. That's what bothers me even more than the life coaches. Yeah, for sure. And I think you're pointing out like a really

great point that it's like these vulnerable people are sort of being sold this message of like, you will have full control over your life. You can have anything you want if you just unleash, you know, the power of positive thinking or whatever they're selling. And it doesn't work or we wouldn't need so many of these programs. People would be feeling a lot better by now, I think. But it's like I asked you when we were chatting before when Lauren, I don't know, you were taking nine years to get in here. I was making a drip coffee. But we were talking, I was like, do you think some of this has to do with the person delivering it and the intention behind, right? Like,

I think there's some people that even if it is like rah-rah positivity, but they're delivering it because they're actually trying. Do you ever distinguish between like intention person or is it all kind of just. No, I think intent absolutely matters. It's not the full picture because of course, you know, you can intend to be nice and still hurt somebody. But we also have to look at like who the message is coming from. If they are like white, they have access to resources, they have everything they need. Is it really just their mindset that they're selling you? You know, you have to look at like what's behind everything that they're putting out there. I will share a crazy story and call something out right now.

And you can tell me if this is toxic positivity. When I was about 21 years old, I was invited to a self-help conference called Landmark Forum. And I was really resistant to go. I just didn't. Oh, great. We're going to get sued. And my friend was like, this is really important to me that you go.

And I thought, okay, Lauren, I'm going to put my feelings aside and I'm going to go and maybe I'll learn something. So I went with an open mind. It was like a, it was like a presentation where friends brought other friends to get them to join. And so I went and I sat and I listened and I obviously didn't speak. I just was trying to be pragmatic about it. And there was probably about 300 people in the audience. And at the end of the session, after this man had talked about Landmark and how great it was and how it was going to change your life and release your trauma and blah, blah, blah, blah, he stopped the conference and he came right up to me out of 300 people. He knew that I was someone in

the room and I don't know how he knew this. I don't know what energy I was giving off that I was not like, I'm going to say manipulated. I wasn't brainwashed by what he was saying. It was the most bizarre thing. He came and he sat next to me and he proceeded for the next 15 minutes and it was 15 minutes exactly. So it was almost like he had been trained. If someone's resistance sit next to them for 15 minutes, he tried to talk me through why I should join this program that was $700. And it was, it was like kind of an experiment to me to be like, wow, this is so crazy that he could feel that I that I didn't want anything to do with this. And he came to target me out. It's like, oh, the the, you know, six hundred ninety nine people were ready to sign up, but I was feeling

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I have had so many friends on this podcast, some are creators, influencers, whatever, that have gotten pregnant by tracking their fertility. And a bunch of them have said that they've used modern fertility. And what this is, and I think it's so incredible to share with anyone who is trying to get pregnant, is it's an easy and affordable way to test your fertility hormones at home. You just do a little finger prick. It's a simple, tiny, thin finger prick. And then you mail it in with a prepaid label and you'll get your personalized results within 10 days. So what this gives you, and I did a podcast on this, is it gives you insight onto your hormone levels, your ovarian reserve, aka how many eggs you have compared to other women your age. This

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especially if you want to know where you're at with all your levels. So if you want kids today or maybe in the future, you can just have everything laid out to you. It's kind of like a roadmap. Right now, Modern Fertility is offering the Skinny Confidential, him and her listeners, 20% off the test when you go to modernfertility.com slash skinny. You guys, that means your test will cost only $139 instead of the hundreds or thousands it could cost at a doctor's office. You get $20 off your fertility test when you go to modernfertility.com slash skinny. That's modernfertility.com slash skinny. I mean, I'm sure this is something that these people practice doing and looking out for signs

of resistance and people that don't want to sign up for these like extremely expensive types of conferences that make huge promises, right? And it can kind of be a game, I think, to like convince people like you to sign up. Maybe he had like a boner underneath the table and he was like, this girl, like she's not convinced. I'm going to convince her, you know? By the way, didn't end up doing Landmark Forum. Couldn't afford it actually at the time. $700

for a conference is a little too expensive. They should have given you a scholarship. And by the way, if Landmark works for you, great. I just, I didn't get a good vibe. Let me ask you a question here because I am probably somebody that's counter to this, to a thought you brought up. At some point, you can actually start to say that you're living in a narrative where you say, I didn't have the parents or I didn't have the upbringing or I didn't have the racial affiliation or I didn't have the job or whatever financial circumstances. At some point, I personally believe that that story doesn't end up serving you in any kind of way. At some point, you kind of have to let part of that go and decide to move forward if you, if you want to,

right. How, where do you cross the line of saying, okay, like we can acknowledge that maybe you don't have, because I mean, and also I would say you can continue to go down the chain to other countries and other, like, we are very fortunate here. There's a lot of other places that like you have very little chance of success in life, right? Like can acknowledge that. But at some point, if you want to break out of that story or those circumstances, you kind of have, you kind of in a way have to think in a more empowering way, I believe. For sure. So I think there's a really big difference between someone deciding that for themselves and saying like, even though I've lived through all of these things, I can overcome them. I can move forward. Then me sitting across from someone and not

knowing their life story, which is what I see happening a lot in these motivational type of industries. It's like anyone in this room can accomplish it because I did. And that can be an overgeneralization without really knowing what's going on for somebody. There's also certain people that can't accomplish certain things. It's just the reality. And I think there's a level of acceptance in that. I'm not going to play in the WNBA. It's just not going to happen. No, I think a lot of the message, and listen, we've probably been guilty at times of perpetrating some of these messages. But our big thing is like, we want people to be the best versions of themselves. It doesn't, you know, I don't expect everybody that listens to go and be a fortune 500 CEO or somebody to go and create a podcast that reaches all these, or to go and, you know, even have like all sorts of

crazy fine, like whether, you know, you're working as a teacher, you're working as a janitor, you're working as a CEO, you're working as a content creator, an anchor, like we just want people to be the best versions of themselves. I don't know how you feel about that message, but I think it's an important message because I think it takes away the... I don't expect people to all... It's not realistic for everybody to jump in and become a CEO. Actually, some people shouldn't. Some people would be phenomenal number twos and actually make way more than most CEOs. I don't think there's anything toxic about that messaging. It's more about when we put our expectations on other people about how they should be performing, that they should be happy, especially when we think about people who are maybe sick or disabled

and saying like, oh, you're not trying hard enough, you're not doing enough. It's very different for the person to say like, this is my life and I want to take control and this is how I'm going to be the best. Okay. Last question. Say somebody that you care about is just fully living out of integrity. They're not taking care of themselves. They're actually not working or trying. They're just not being a productive individual. And they're unhappy. Let's say that if they're happy doing that, like say you're sitting on the couch watching TV and you're happy, I'm all good with that. But say somebody's actually not happy with where they are in life. They're not putting in the effort. They're not working on themselves. They're just wallowing. What do you tell that person? Are they asking you for help?

If they're complaining to you. Like just say it's a friend coming to you. Like, I hate my life. I hate my relationship. I don't like where I am. But you're like, hey, Jim. Don't come to me. I'll be like, change your mindset, change your life.

Right? But you're like, hey. No, if they're not, like I said, if they're not complaining and they're happy and they're okay with where they are, then I think stay the fuck out of it, right? Like it's not our business. And like that individual is happy

and they don't need to do much. But if they're constantly complaining and coming and seeking advice. So if they're asking you for advice, I think the biggest thing you have to do that therapists do that maybe is different from a coach would be to figure out what's getting in their way before giving advice. Trying to figure out what are the barriers, what's stopping them. Most of us, like I said, know what the tools are. We have access to them. There's a reason that we're not following through with them. And then thinking about like, why does this person keep coming and complaining to me? Am I participating in this cycle at all that might

be keeping them stuck? And at some point you might have to say, hey, I can't help you with this if the person's not changing. I would love, I mean, we've talked about what this is. I would love I mean we've talked about what this is I would love to know some tools and tactics that the audience can use if they have a parent or a sister that is doing what your parents did to you so whenever somebody is using toxic positivity against you there's a couple of different ways that you can respond right so the first would be, if it's somebody you don't care about, you don't know, you can just say, thanks, move on. If you really want to help them, what I would suggest is saying like, I know you're trying to be helpful. And I see that you have good intentions and that's not really helpful for me. And trying to explain to them, you know, I would love if you could just listen. I just want to vent.

I would like if we could just like go on a walk, like trying to give other suggestions so that they know where to go next. Can you give, you know, we just were talking to a therapist about couples therapy. Can you give maybe some examples for the audience of where, from your perspective, toxic positivity appears in relationships? Yeah. So it shows up a lot when one partner is complaining about something or just wants to... The biggest thing I see as a couples therapist is you might go to your spouse and say, oh my God, I had the worst day at work today. It sucked. And the other one's like, oh, it'll get better tomorrow. And they're making a bid for attention in that moment. They're saying like, I want to come to you. I want to feel connected and I want to feel understood.

So instead, I want everyone to focus on asking questions. Try to get to the root of it. What happened today? What was difficult for you? What do you wish happened instead? And then if they explicitly say, can you give me advice? Then you can step in and say, change your mindset. Go meditate. You have a huge following on social media. We've obviously seen that with Instagram. And everyone goes crazy whenever you post. They tag all these people that you know.

Have you ever seen people get into a fight on the comments about toxic positivity? Yes, like every day. Like tell us about that. I was like looking at your page and I feel like there's contention in the comments? Yes. Like every day. Like tell us about that. I feel like I was like looking at your page and I feel like there's contention in the comments. Yes. The other day I posted about manifestation and I literally thought my Instagram was going to burn down because people were so angry. Tell us exactly the post and everything. Angry at me, angry at other people. I said that when we talk about manifestation, we have to also talk

about like privilege and hard work and other things aside from just like I manifested it comes to me. And people were like, you don't understand manifestation. You're wrong. You're stupid. You're an idiot. What you know, all the things. And then other people will fight back with them in the comments. It's like it's actually gets pretty wild. What is the debate? Cause you said that you said that sometimes, you know, you have to debate this because it is like the, the word toxic positivity does it's, it's something that you like are like, huh, what is that? You've hit, you've hit a nerve. You've hit a nerve in culture and society. Yeah. Which is why I called it that because whatever you say, people get really angry. And I think that's a good thing to like spark the conversation. But positivity is so enticing because when it's sold to people, it's like, here's this thing on a silver platter that if you master it, you will get everything you want in life. And I think manifestation is sold that way too. I hear influencers all the time. I manifested my job. I manifested this. So when

you tell people like, hey, that might not be exactly how it works. I think they get really angry. I actually, I listen, I visualize, I manifest, I do all that shit, but there's a lot of other things that goes into baking a cookie. I mean, that's the baking soda and the baking powder. Like you are right that there should be some kind of conversation of luck, discipline, sacrifice, execution, strategy, a partner. My partner has helped me. Like there's a lot of different things that do go into that. I think you're right about that.

I think the like the nuance here, and please again, like tell me when I'm ignorant or when I'm wrong, is like I look at visualization as manifestations. You have to kind of have an idea or see what you desire and where you want to go. But then there's a million little, like that's like the first letter in the alphabet. Then, you know, to get to Z,

there's a lot of other things. And I think maybe what you're pointing out is a lot of people aren't talking about B to Z. It's just like I manifested and it happened. And it's kind of bullshit because there's a million things to get to that end result. As you know, recently we moved to Austin and we were looking for new doctors. We had to find all new doctors in a new town. And an amazing, incredible resource that you have to check out if you're looking for a new doctor is ZocDoc. It's this free app that shows you doctors who are patient reviewed. It takes your insurance,

and it's available when you need them. This is so much better, I feel like, than just Googling a doctor that is like paid for SEO to get to the top. You actually get real patient reviews, which I'm very much into. ZocDoc is going to give you the perfect tools to find the perfect doctor for you. The people that created this app found major pain points in healthcare and all the things that weren't working and they said enough. So they tried to streamline everything in one place and that's exactly what they did. We think now more than ever, it's so important to not just stumble along and get set up with any old doctor that you find on Google. It's really important to kind of vet who is going to be your medical practitioner, who you're going to be working

with for your overall health. And that's why we like this platform so much. Again, you can go on there. It's free. Check out actual patient review doctors to see who's going to be the best fit for your medical care. Another amazing thing about ZocDoc is you can really focus on doctors who are in network. Insurance can be a real bitch. And this is absolutely amazing for people who don't want to waste time. So no more wasting time hunting down your aunt's cash-only chiropractor. You know what I mean? We've all been there. Go to ZocDoc.com slash skinny and download the ZocDoc app for free. Then start your search for a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours, which is incredible. That is ZocDoc.com

slash skinny. Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash skinny. ZocDoc.com slash skinny. Yeah. And it's almost like I've noticed it's the new way of sort of saying like you're self-made that people will say like, I manifested this and of sort of saying like you're self-made that people will say like, I manifested this and they don't, like you're saying, talk about any of the other details. And then you're like, wait, what? That just kind of appeared for you. And we know that's not how it works. And traditional like manifestation law of attraction texts say, visualize it, think about it and let it rest and it will come. I'll talk about something that I think is toxic positivity after really understanding this. When I got pregnant, I was obviously so grateful and I feel like you can relate to this right now

what I'm about to say. But I had a very hard time with my identity of my body changing so much. And I was very honest about that. Your tits grow, your nipples grow, everything's growing, every orifice is growing. And then you have the baby and you think, oh, I have my body back. And they're like, here, breastfeed. And you like already haven't drank alcohol for 10 months. You haven't been able to party with your friends. And then like you are going to this chapter of breastfeeding.

And you also have, for me, I had all of this postpartum weight. I gained 55 pounds. And I felt when I talked about these things that bothered me, people were like, you should be grateful and lucky that you were able to get pregnant. And so I did a podcast where I'm like, I can simultaneously love my daughter more than anything in the world and love everything about her and

love the experience of pregnancy even and love certain things about it. But I can also simultaneously fucking hate gaining all of that weight and having my identity changed and having everything stretched and pulled and tightened and epidural. And I mean, I don't get why we can't have both. That's such a perfect example of toxic positivity of like, you're just supposed to feel the one thing. And that's I had a real problem with that. I actually had a real and I don't even think I've talked about it enough. I had a real problem with that. Yeah, same. It's infuriating when people say it to you.

Because, and I gotta be careful because I'm a man. I don't want to step into it. But you see women online when you share those feelings. The first thing is, well, just be fortunate and lucky that you had. And it's like, yes, that. But you can't disregard or diminish all the other stuff, right? Yeah. I shared a post like, I think a month after I had my baby and it was like 10 things I've

learned since becoming a parent. And I didn't think it was overly negative, but I... Give us some examples of what you said. Oh my gosh. It was like that people lie about how easy parenting is and that... Huge lie. Yeah. Huge fucking lie. And that like you can simultaneously love your kid, like you're saying, and really hate the experience all at the same time. I think I got over a thousand comments

on this post of people being like, you sound so ungrateful. You must not want to be a mom. Really awful stuff. I think it's projection. Yeah. And I think those people weren't allowed to be honest about how they felt when they were having the baby or they forget you know even people close to me are like oh isn't it so wonderful and like when you've just gotten home from the hospital it's really not that one you do I will tell you something and you message me yes in a year you do forget oh I already forget some of it and that that is the that's a crazy thing too, is you forget. Like I have to sometimes go back and read a blog post that I wrote when I was in the

experience. You forget how gnarly it was. But if you remembered, you wouldn't have another kid. So they have to forget. Yeah, there's something in your brain that just makes you forget. So I mean, I can see like it's hard because like you sometimes can see all areas. But I think the postpartum pregnancy one is a good one because you are told you have to be grateful. You have to be this. You have, first of all, I don't have to be anything. I can be what I want.

That's number one. Like, sorry, I'm not sorry. I'm going to actually talk about how I actually feel and I can have more feelings than one. What are other examples in this book that are really niche that you've talked about, like pregnancy? So grief is a big one. I think whenever people are going through grief and loss, there's a lot of toxic positivity. They're in a better place now. They wouldn't want to see you sad. Just be happy for the time that you had them or like at least it wasn't a painful death. We say these things to try to be comforting,

but really the other person is like, this is just bad. I think that we say these things to comfort ourselves. For sure. And it's actually selfish. It triggers, grief triggers things in people of like, I don't want to think about my own mortality. I don't want to think about losing anybody close to me. So I'm going to try to throw these like nice things at you so we don't have to sit in that mess. It's weird that you say this because I think if you have someone who dies of drug addiction or suicide, it's a totally different layer because with cancer, people can justify, oh, they died of cancer. But with suicide and drug addiction, there's almost like a taboo where people are so uncomfortable with it that they even go even a notch higher. Absolutely. And they just kind of

want to avoid it, period. Which is shitty if you if you've lost a parent or a sister or whatever when you're young, because then the person who's young doesn't get a chance to have an outlet. Absolutely. And it sort of makes you like have to qualify your grief. Like it has to be worth it or palatable for people to hear if you want to talk about it. What I've learned about these last three conversations, this one, Maria's and the therapist, is that it seems like when people are going through stuff, the best thing to do is just listen. Yes. And it's so hard for us. I think like even myself as a therapist, when my husband's complaining to me, I want to throw advice at him or I want to fix what he's going through. It's so

uncomfortable just to listen. Where did you see a need to have to talk about this in your practice? Like where were you like, I need to write a book on this? So I noticed it on social media and then I started really like paying attention to it in sessions. And I noticed that a lot of my patients were saying like, I know I shouldn't complain, but I should be grateful, but, and I was like, God, they're saying this in therapy, the one place where you shouldn't really be able to complain. There must be such a pressure to, to not seem negative. And there was always like qualifiers about feeling things. Who needs your book? Gosh, I think anybody who is just like tired of trying to show up as happy all the time. And also anybody that wants to

be better in their relationships, be a better support person. You're amazing. Thank you for coming on. I feel like I really understand the concept now. And I will tell you from a marketing perspective, this is a really smart name because you are right. It makes you lean. What is that? Well, I'm going to be super honest. Obviously, we get pitches for the show and we go through. And when I got this, I was really resistant to it. I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know if I like that topic. I was like, I don't know if I want to tell people to not be positive. But I think like you've done an incredible job of explaining the nuance, right? And the idea behind, I'm glad we had this conversation because I was perceiving it in a total different way. And probably a lot of people that are going to

listen to us are going to same way. Yeah. And I think you're like a lot of people that are going to feel that way of like, you might be the perfect person to read the book. Well, you know, it's you, I, I, here's, here's what it is. And I think where, and I was thinking about how you've hit a nerve. I think a lot of people stay motivated in life and they move forward and they feel like they get their results because they feel like they've got, they've developed a mindset that puts them in a position to be able to do that. But it, the mindset to your point may be counter to what's actually going on. But I think people

are so like, this is part of people's identity. Like, okay, shit is going bad in my life. I need to like have a positive mindset so I can go through it. It's like, you're not trying to derail them from that, I don't think. No, not at all. But I think that's why you get the reaction. If you don't understand and you just see this, you're just like, oh, I don't want to let go of that part of my identity because that's what keeps me moving forward I will say something though when something triggers me or it brings up something in me I want to lean into it and know more about it because I want to understand it and I think that that's what this show is all about it's about maybe perhaps looking at an opinion that you don't agree with and understanding it so you have more context of it. For sure.

Where can everyone find your book, your page? Your page is incredible. Tell us all the things. Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at sitwithwit. It's where you can find my website, everything. And then the book is everywhere books are sold, Amazon and stores. And tell us the full name because it's the full name. Yeah. Toxic Positivity, keeping it real in a world obsessed with being happy. Whitney Goodman, you can come back anytime. Thank you so much. I feel like I learned a ton. Follow her on Instagram at sitwithwit. And can we do a giveaway for a signed copy of your book? Sure. All you guys have to do is follow her on Instagram and tell us your

favorite part of this episode on my latest post and go give her some love on her Instagram because she needs like good energy, especially after this podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Whitney. Whitney was kind enough to give away some signed copies of her book, Toxic Positivity. All you have to do to win is rate and review

the podcast on the podcast app and then just tell us your favorite part of this episode on my latest Instagram. Hope you guys love this episode and stay tuned for a fun little episode on Monday.