The Smark Avengers - The Scorpion’s Shocking History: From J. Jonah’s Spy to Venom Host!

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

What happens when one of Spider-Man’s oldest enemies becomes one of his most dangerous? This week on Smark Avengers, Corey and Dylan dive deep into the twisted history of Mac Gargan – The Scorpion! Once a private investigator hired by J. Jonah Jameson to uncover Spider-Man’s identity, Gargan’s obsession turned him into a monster. From his first battles with Peter Parker, to his psychological breakdown, and his shocking transformation into Venom, we explore how the Scorpion evolved from a simple tail-swinging villain into one of Marvel’s most complex tragedies. Is The Scorpion a heavy hitter who deserves more respect… or just another Spider-Man jobber?Join Corey and Dylan as they settle the debate once and for all. 🧠 Topics Discussed: - The origins of Mac Gargan and his connection to J. Jonah Jameson - The Scorpion’s classic battles with Spider-Man - Gargan’s time as Venom and what it meant for his legacy - How the Scorpion compares to villains like Rhino, Lizard, and Vulture - Why Corey thought Scorpion was top-tier as a kid — and Dylan didn’t! Click the link for Dylan's radio show!: http://www.bouncedigitalradio.co.uk Click the link for Dylan's Twitch stream: http://Twitch.tv/spookylaroux Click the link for Jon's Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/bigjonbowski/ Click the link for Corey's project "Henry's Usual": https://www.tumblr.com/henrysusual Click the link for Corey's show "Large Old Cup": https://open.spotify.com/show/2YHMppnl9inQevwLIxR64f

Well, I don't think he is a cunt, though, is he? No, he seems all right. I think he's dead, though, right now, technically. Oh, fucking everybody's dead. Well, I mean, it's hard to tell at the moment because the whole age of revelation stuff. I've not been following any of that, which is nice. Try to get so many times the Scorpion died. Well, it'll be on the show.

All right, I'll make my guess. I'll make my guess now. And then later on, when we were talking about the scorpion, you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. He strikes me as someone who may maybe he's died twice. He strikes me, like, it seems like he's the right level. You could kill him a couple of times. Is that your guess?

I'm going to say twice, yeah. Okay. I like how you said. I'm going to keep it for the podcast and then immediately said it. Well, that's what I'm saying is I'll tell you. And then later on, when we're talking about the. scorpion you can tell me if I'm right or wrong you'll find that I will as far as my research has has guided me I know a answer okay there you go research was totally you know

perfect we'll see what I will see well yeah you know again you know again it's one of things like and this is kind of why I'm glad in it my way this is the show hi everybody welcome the smart Avengers my name is Corey and with me is Dylan uh John is not with us he has other things to do he is Trying to reopen Corey's government. Best of luck to him. It's going to be really funny when this video comes out in the middle of November if the government is still shut down.

Hey, if it comes out in the middle of November and the government's back to work, John did it. Hey, what a success. So, well, John is out there fighting for the common man in a country he's not even a member of. We're holding it down here with just the two of us. We can make it. if we try, just the two of us, you and I, Dylan.

And we're here to talk about the Scorpion, right? Stock the Hedgehog. Oh. Yeah. Do you think, okay, all right, well, actually, we'll segue that, and we'll do a soft lead into talking about Scorpion. So Sonic is like teaming up with DC Comics. We talked about this a little bit already.

But if Sonic were to teaming. up with Marvel instead of DC, what character do you, what characters do you see Sonic interacting with, like Sonic and the rest of his his crew? They don't strike me as X-Men. You mean, I don't know why.

You mean superheroes or supervillains? Uh, we'll go both. We'll go both. Well, in Sonic lore, his enemy is Dr. Eggman, so you're probably talking about egg-based villains, right? Yeah, but I mean, well, Well, Egg Fu is a DC, but unfortunately, you can't use Egg Fu.

They didn't put him in the fucking crossover. Because he's problematic. Not anymore. They changed him. His eyes are normal now. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't have a mustache anymore. Oh, it's, it's all right. It's totally fine. Is it just egg, egghead? They just egg head.

Egg base. And I mean, he's, did they bring? him back after Hank Pem killed him? I mean, like, why would they? Yeah, exactly. He gives a fuck. Yeah. You know? Who else is they going to say? Like, machine man?

Machine Smith. Machine Smith. That's what I mean. What about? Because he makes robots and Sonic beats up robots. Yeah, yeah. Now, is that the same character who was just ahead in the superior foes of Spider-Man? Or is that somebody else? that was silver man silver main that's another one

well I don't know if he's still ahead in the jar no way he was ahead on a RC car for a hot minute but he's not doing that he's just a old man there you go so do you think he'd get along with with Spider-Man though

I don't know if anybody gets on with Spider-Man Johnny Storm seems to Like I'm a whole lot A lot if you read I don't And you know I don't I'm just saying We should do that

Whenever John comes back We'll just read loads of like horrible fan fiction Yeah we'll read slash fuck We'll read slash fic Yeah And we'll have John critique it And he'll be like Wow I love this

Maybe like I have to leave the podcast For five minutes Yep I'm like okay We see a gunshot in the other side of the room. Oh, that's not at all. We had two angles on that one, did we? Maybe that's just how he jerks off.

I don't know. He has to give himself a grazing shot in order to climax. It's kind of like on a rack's fixation, but harder. Yeah, with a gun. Yeah, he really takes it seriously, man. Yeah, you don't fuck around with that. This is why he's trying to get back in business. because he needs to go back out and buy some more guns yeah well also you know it's really

cutting into his time because he's having to sit there and like go to every capital building in the United States there's 50 of them and I don't know if John can drive every time I've ever talked to him about going well it's going to be yeah every time I've ever talked to him about going anywhere he's talked about taking a train and our train system in America is nowhere near yours it's going to be tough driving to Hawaii it will be very difficult But not impossible. No, it could be done. I believe in John, who, as we have established, may or may not be able to actually drive.

Yes. So anyway, Dylan, you and John in particular are both big Spider-Man guys. I am not, for the most part. Most of my Spider-Man exposure came from the 90s cartoon series and reading some 90s, like, McFarlane-era Spider-Man. so when it comes to the character there's a lot that I don't really know aside from the sort of shallow surface level from what the animated series was able to provide no the one of the times I wasn't around for the show you guys did a whole episode about the Spider-Man animated series which is kind of a shame that I missed that one because I could have contributed a little bit we can do it again that's a good show we'll just talk about it again yeah we'll do we'll do a we'll touch base on that one again sometime but um when it gets when it it comes down to it there's a lot of uh and i guess this is why i was kind of really interested in when we were originally talking about like what are topics that you and i could talk about if john was gone in spider band villains came up because outside of like some of the movies and and

the animated series i don't know too much about some of the villains so like yeah i know a lot about norman osborne because norman osborne gets used a lot i know a lot about dr octopus because he gets used a lot. Venom, same deal. But a character in this, and why I was excited that we picked this one first, a character that when I was a kid, I thought was a bigger deal than maybe he is or was, was a scorpion. I remember having the toy. I remember him having a, like, a happy meal toy in McDonald's as well. And I remember like his episode of the animated series and him showing up for like the Sinister Six and stuff. And I just remember thinking like Scorpion is like a bigger deal villain.

And then of course as I got older and is actually reading comics, I don't think I've read a single fucking comic where the Scorpion was featured. Okay. As the Scorpion, at least. Because, you know, I read Dark Avengers when that first started, you know, in the late 2000s, but he wasn't the Scorpion at that point anymore. He was Venom. It was.

So, yeah, I'm hoping that you and I could have a conversation about the scorpion. You can fill me in, kind of how, like, we did our hobgoblin deep dive, probably not as big because there's only been one scorpion to my knowledge. There has not been, okay, see, we're already learning. So I, there have been two of them. Okay, so here's what I know of the scorpion. and this is again from the animated series so I know that

the Scorpion was a dude that J. Jonah Jameson hired to basically like beat the piss out of Spider-Man or at least defame him okay at least defame him I think yeah and that

the suit did I at least remember in the cartoon I remember the suit made him go kind of nuts kind of was like an HGH kind of deal with him or steroid thing, and then he turned on J. Jonah Jameson and tried to kill him, and Spider-Man had to save him.

Yeah. And that would be the full extent of my knowledge on the Scorpion. Aside from again, I know he was a Venom host for a hot minute, and I know that he has been

associated with the Sinister 6, or at least was in the cartoon. He was in the cartoon i don't think he was in the tv show no that's not right he was in the cartoon i don't think he was in the comics that's what i meant to say okay um the sinister six in the comics was dr octopus and five others yep we did a whole episode where we picked our own sinister six and part of that was talking about the history of the sinister six it's been something we've touched on in the past craven whoa doctor

Aquarius, chameleon, Mysterio. Craven? Craven. Oh, here are the other two. Volcher? Volcher? Was it a filter? Pacepot Pete?

Oh, Electro. Electro. Yeah. Trapster. He goes by the Trapsternog, please. I like the Pacepot Pee better. But anyway, continue. I like the Trapter better. So, you're correct in the things that you know about the Scorpion.

In essence, you also know that his name is Mack. Yes, Mac Gargan. What is his second name? Mike Gargan, correct. I looked it up today to do some research on the Scorpion. Do you know what his first name actually is? What is it? McDonald.

McDonald Gargan, and I'm like, I don't think that's the first name. I don't think, I've never heard anyone whose first name is McDonald. Oh, I'm pretty sure that's a second name. I don't think that's the first name. So that's, that's what I've been told. His name is MacDonald Gargan. So you can see why that guy would turn to a life of crime. Yeah.

Not, not doing them any, any favors right there. So MacDonald Gargan used to be, I'm going to call him by his full name. just because it's so stupid the whole show the whole six arras is going to take we're going to be on this for a long time talking about macdonald gargan and his shenanigans um he started off as a private investigator jjona jameson hired him because he wanted to find out what the connection between Peter Parker and Spider-Man was Jay Jonah Jameson, famed news editor and

the publisher of the Daily Bugle has been around the block for many, many years, knew that Peter Parker took pictures of Spider-Man all the time, couldn't figure out how he did it. How does Peter Parker always be around Spider-Man at the right time? He couldn't figure it out.

There's no logical explanation. so he hired mac donald gargan to find that answer out which he failed to do so because spider ones get that spider sense it warns it whenever there's any kind of like yeah suspicion around spider sense has has has been pretty like fluid over the years because you're like is is mac gargan sorry macdonald gargan just being there like is that dangerous i don't know like what how do you define danger yeah because then it's going off all the time he lives in new york city for god's sake it's always a fucking prick with a knife knocking around you know as i understand it i've never been and i don't think i'd be welcome i'd get i get stopped probably plus all the other stuff i've

said about america over the years you you know i think you'll find most new yorkers will disagree with you though to be fair to be fair i hope so i hope so um plus they do pizza yeah i'd like to get the pizza like donald gargan our old friend our favorite character in spider-man lore he so spider sense we didn't know how that worked that was a whole unusual thing yes and after an issue of this j jordan james was like it's not working we're gonna have to we're going to have to try something more drastic. Instead of trying to find out what Peter Parker and Spider-Man have in common, which could be anything.

I'll never know. Instead of that, I'll just find a way to fucking kill Spider-Man. Yeah? Easiest solution. Me. Did him? Yeah.

So, pervertly, yeah, he didn't tell anybody this. He did this as a secret. Jay Joe Jameson was like Here what I'm going to do Is I'm going to Instead of you being a private investigator I'm just going to hire a guy to like Fuck around with you and your mind

To turn you into an animal Because Spider Man's a spider So you can be an animal And then you can beat him up And MacDonald Gargan was like Sounds good to me boss You're going to pay me

And Jay Joe and Jameson said yes So that was at that started I believe the Tinkerer was the one that made the suit from MacDonald Gargan I have my book of notes but the actual guy that did

the the the um brilliant stuff that made him feel like an animal was Farley Stillwell famous character Farley still well

who occurs time and time again Corey's got a puzzled look on his face to suggest either I've heard that name or I don't know who they the fuck farty still well i don't think i've ever heard of farley still well well well he's the guy that made the scorpion is it did he do anything else so anyway so i guess okay real quick before we get too far along

so macdonald gargan is a private investigator that's his job and yes so like he gets hired like hey we're gonna fall around this guy and we're going to try to see what he has to do with spider man and because of people Parker's spider sense the play doesn't work because spire sense can be whatever it is you need to be in a given moment and in this moment it was hey this guy's following me around um so the change of topic is all right cool we're going to do something drastic we're going to try to kill spider man and you private investigator which is like a job just a job you can have you can just be a private investigator we're going to i'm going to have a guy experiment on your

body and that's how we're going to do this so at what point like in macdonald gargans is cool with this you get paid so you can get paid doing lots of things my question my question is was was it established that he was like a shitty private eye and that's why he would be willing to like take this money to forever alter his body chemistry I don't know how well established it was Because as far as I know MacDonald Gargit got introduced In episode

Issue 19 I believe Early Really early I believe the transformation happened in Issue 20 The next issue So I don't know how much

I feel it was implied That he's not very good investigator So they were like Fuckin let's just make him into a Scorpium So they picked the Scorpion So real quick, real quick, second question. The other thing I have is how much money is J. Joe and Jameson, like, running with that he's able to...

Because, like, hiring a private investigator can be pricey, yes, because you're paying by the hour for the most part. But, like, more importantly, he paid for someone to illegally have their body experimented on. Like, that has to cost a pretty penny as well. So, like, is being the editor-in-chief of a newspaper in the 1960s that profitable? I don't remember what the number was I feel like it was 50,000 That's a lot

That's a good bit I feel like that was the number Especially in the 60s But money meant something Not like no I where it's all fucking nonsense You know Inflation and what have you Like that doesn't make any sense

You can inflate money I'm gonna look up that inflation I like how you're looking at that out up and not looking up to see if it actually was 50,000 and up. I'm taking your word for it. Well, my word has never seen anybody wrong. About half a million dollars today's day, today, about half a mill. So yeah.

I mean, if some, if some newspaper guy offered you that to become a scorpion, you'd think about it. You think about it. You definitely think about it, you know. But obviously. obviously McDonnell Gargan being the kind of guy that he is,

the fact that he said yes so quickly in the case that he's not very good at this job. Also, the fact that he did not get the results

that he wanted also in the case that he's not very good of this job. Well, to be fair, usually private investigators are like,

hey, is this guy committing welfare fraud or hey, is this guy cheating on his wife? It's usually not, hey,

I need you to stealthily spy on the superhero. Not that he knew that Peter Parker was a superhero, yeah. he's just like follow this photographer around you're like well that seems easy how hard could

that be you know 50,000 dollars um it's weird because he keeps disappearing into an alleyway and then I look for him and I can't find him yeah but I do see spider on swing away and then a big bag full of like webbed up clothes in the alleyway I just can't put it together well clearly whoever was wearing his clothes was eaten by a spider we're just you're just gonna have to turn me into a scorpion so I can kill them. Nope. It's the only way. It's the only way.

So you were saying why they chose a scorpion? They went for a scorpion because it's like a predator of a spider. Okay. You don't look at all. I don't. Now, admittedly, science was not a favorite topic of mine in school. I don't know for a fact that scorpions hunt spiders. Get the giggle machine out.

Okay. what else would you have either a bird no we already have the vulture we can't do it again we're going to do scorpion get your marvel hat on corey come on what exactly are you can eat spiders they go some species such as the spider hunting scorpion specialize in eating spiders so there you go ding ding ding that one seems to be the one that they tried to put inside like Donald Gargan So he

He thought Well I'll do this No problem He gave him Like that Strange mentality Where he thinks I don't want to say

He thinks like a scorpion But like they mess with his mind And then The Tinker Like built him a suit And the suit It was like armor And had a big clubbing teal

Okay Original Scorpion Didn't have a stinger In the tail No, it's just a big... Which to me... This thing looking... It's fucking stupid.

It was a bit dumb-looking, yes. Not that dumb-looking. What's the most characteristic thing about a scorpion? It's fucking stingy-ass teal. And claws. Crabs have those. Crabbs have those. Lobsters have those.

The crab. That's who they should have also gotten to go after us. Corpian has stingy-ass teal. That's the scorpion's fucking thing, right? So to give them a teal, it's just like a stink. I'm like, come on, guys, do better. By the way, I tried to figure out, I tried to find out

when they put the stinger into the teal, okay? Because if we're talking about the original appearance of the scorpion, McDonald Gargan, I was in Amazing Spider-Man 19 in December, 1964.

Okay? 1964. Yes. And when do you think they gave the scorpion a stinger? That seems like, a real 90s thing for me for some reason does it

it does because I can imagine somebody like a McFarlane giving him a big curved looking blade on the end of it uh no when did they get to him honestly you're not far off on a lot of those points from my research I find two different things

and one of them was that Justin Hammer in a comic illustrated by Todd McFarland Justin Hammer upgraded the

Scorpion suit to make him be a he was stolen out different suits to people and he upgraded the Scorpion suit under the assumption that the Scorpion would do him a favor and gave him a stinger. Now that was in

late 1990 I believe I've got my facts on that one, correct, October 1990. But I've heard from other sources that really the scorpion had this stinger at least since the act's of vengeance, which was a storyline that happened around late in 1989. Okay. So let's ballpark it and say,

1989 slash 1990. I believe the correct answer is 1989. But even then... So we're looking at 20 years. A stinger on that tail. More than that. 1964 to 1989. He just had a big fucking club.

Nobody thought we got to give this scorpion a fucking stinger. Like, come on, dude. I will say, Tom McFarland draws a lovely scorpion. I imagine he does. Todd's great. The Todd father has many people refer to him. He's not my father. I want to put that out there.

They're on the record. Okay. So... We're not an heir to the McFarlane fortune. No. He's probably spent on drugs. People do that. So... Need to.

So the... Scorpions are ready to go and fight Spider-Man, his natural enemy. And he beats him up. Spider-Man loses to... Donald Gargan, a.k.a. the scorpion gets a big head on him, and it's like, I could beat anybody. So, you know, I'm going to say this. The fact that they messed with his head to make him think that he was a fucking scorpion, that's probably like a little number. You know what mean? Probably didn't need to do that. No, I can't say that was super ghoul. Like, all the,

like, all the other guys, the vulture, etc. They just pursued on. And they're like, now I'm the vulture. Nobody was like, I gotta fuck in your head to make you think you're a bird, you know? It's no need for that. Like we said,

birds eat spiders anyway, so like, you know. Yeah. I don't know if vulture today, but, you know. Eat roadkill. Blackbird didn't think fucking,

yeah, you know. So, um, the next time, so Scorpion beats him twice, which is impressive. because this is like early on spider man he's doing pretty well for himself and then scorpion beats him

but the insanity begins to creep in and that is a theme with our good pal macdonald gargan is his just rampant insanity so spider man is able to best him the third time and kind of puts pay to scorpion for a long time after this The Scorpion has a deep hatred for Spider-Man making them look silly. And also, unsurprisingly, a deep, deep hatred for Jay Jonah Jameson, who, you know, did all that shit to him. You can understand why. Yeah. Fair enough.

So, we're on my notes. After this, he fought, like, Captain America and stuff. But, like, it was just, you know, you... introduce a new guy, you make him walk around, see the sights, and then you come back to Spider-Man, right? It's happened to everybody. That's what happens. They fight Spider-Man. Everybody's like, you know, Dr. Octopus has fought people. Uh, somebody else. Yeah. Mealien, Mysterio. You know, they take a walk around the block and see who else is out there, you know? And then they come back to Spider-Man. Sometimes, if they don't cheat themselves.

the head, Mysterio bit. Don't interpret that as anything else. Don't get this bit from the podcast. Talking about Mysterio. So, like, he didn't really do a whole lot of stuff, and this is going to be, like, a recurring theme to write McDonald Gargans' story career, is that he's kind of there, but he doesn't really do a whole lot. And I suspect this would explain why there was such a big gap between, you know, his original appearance and then the Stinger appearing in the late 80s, early 90s, is just because I didn't really use him that often or to like a high profile degree.

So I can't think of, like, really, it's funny as well because like you said, in the 90s, in the TV show, all of the villains you see in the TV show, you kind of think, oh, they're Spider-Man's big fucking villains. Yeah, they felt special, yeah. Yeah. And I think Scorpion was used

because it was a bit of a renaissance of the Scorpion at the comics recently, but also because he's a very good visual character. Yeah. It looks great. Which is really funny, though, when you think about it,

because that original Scorpion design that he had, I mean, there really wasn't much to it. it. Yeah, it was just a green body suit that covered up most of his body, he suffered his eyes, and it was just had lines. It's all it was. It's horizontal lines and green, and then a tail with no singer.

Yeah, it didn't look good. But then once, I think at some point they're like, the character as is isn't going to work. We'll give him a bit of a redesign. And they brought him back. So, like, obviously he did stuff in between the 60s and the 90s, but like, nobody, it's not important.

Yeah. You know? He came back and Justin Hammer revamped him. Give him a new costume. And Justin Hammer, of course, would give people upgrades or new outfits in return for being his lackeys. And he would get a cut of the money. So he said, I'm going to give this to MacDonald Gargan. But I need him to do a mission for me. I want him to kidnap.

A guy, like a general from another country who was visiting the United States because Justin Hammer wanted that guy brought back to him for, you know, some hosties negotiation business, benefit some of his other, you know, beneficiaries. Justin Hammer is a very complicated man, you know. McDonald Gargan turns up with his new stinger, ready to go. and Spider-Man makes some sort of like off-hand reference to J. Jonah Jameson

and Argon immediately is like okay hold the phone change your plans I'm not bringing this guy back to Justin Hammer I'm going to hold him hostage myself until somebody brings me

J. Jonah Jameson so they have a standoff for a bit um this doesn't end the way scorpion wants it to in that he does not get to kill jay jonah jameson naturally dreadful shame and he gets his ass kicked um after that i remember um a comic in the mid 90s in the own saga where macdonald gargan upgrades his uniform again and it looks really really cool and he kidnaps jona jameson for real and he has this thing where like if he stings you three

times um you die so like the first thing is like um like a neutralizer kind of sting and then the second sting is like a real like slow burning proper poison and then third sting is like that delivers the final blow like if you get stung three times you're you're you're you're dead instantly. I believe he stings Jonah Jameson twice with the intent of staying him a third time. And then Spider-Man ends up teaming up

with like Power Man and Iron Fist for some reason. Did we up the Scorpion? I don't but this is the first time I'd ever heard of these characters. I mean it was the Heroes for Hire so perhaps you paid them good money to help out. I'm not

sure. It's been a long time since I read that but I remember the artwork was it made the scorpion look sick as hell and also quite in seeing i'm like this is great like there's stuff you can do with this guy you know then they didn't really do stuff with him for a long time which is again so like i don't remember the scorpion doing much from that point in the 90s up until the next bit we're going to talk about so you can see that that so far the scorpion run has been pretty hit or miss an awful lot of misses yeah which is kind of traditional for like you introduce a villain like they're gonna have a big story then they might get they might have a good

another good story or two but for the most part they're really not going to be either they're either not around or they're they're getting clown on a little bit yes and i would say that scorpion are cloned on a lot so like i said on the in the tv show he seems like a big deal and he has a cool design he's interesting but in reality in the comics like i don't think anybody's really going to pick me up too much i'm being like oh you forgot this i'm like i don't think i did i mentioned stuff i mentioned the action i didn't need to do a whole lot not either acts of vengeance was this story where somebody thought i don't remember who somebody thought it would be a good idea maybe it was dr doom somebody thought it would be a good idea for like um all of the villains to

fight different heroes. Somebody noticed, hey, Spider-Man always beats up Dr. Octopus, but how would he fight, you know, a different villain? He wouldn't see it coming. So that was, that whole storyline was just all the heroes fight different villains, and then they all get their

asses kicked anyway, and then don't learn any lessons, and then they go so we're going to fast forward quite a significant because I don't remember Scorpion doing anything for a long time. And then they made what is now quite an infamous run that you've previously mentioned.

But let me explain it a little bit. Norman Osborne is in prison for all the crimes. He did a lot of crimes and he is in prison. And at some point, he doesn't like being in prison. you know he's like oh I like going out and just killing people and being a goblin you know

so he he comes up with this crazy plan where he reveals to MacDonald Gargan that Spider Man is actually Peter Parker

so Norman Osborne with this knowledge picks one of the most mentally unstable people in Spider-Man lore as we've covered he's clinically insane many times and he trusts McDonnell Gargan with that secret

and McDonnell Gargan I believe Mark Miller wrote this McDonnell Gargan was like I'm a different but I don't have the suit on I guess I'm not insane you know so he very calm Oh, Mark Miller. And he very calmly tells Peter Parker that he knows that he's Spider-Man.

I think they're in like a cafe or whatever. They're sitting outside. How is an espresso? Fuck you, you know. Some biscottie. I know your darkest secret. They're good biscuits. McDonald Gargan kidnaps.

Aunt May It's always at May It's got to be at May With the understanding The understanding That if Peter Parker Spider-Man wants to see his crazy old aunt back again He has to do one thing

And that thing is to break Norman Oswald out of prison And Spider-Man Who's been doing this for 70 years Yeah Things I can't think of a other way around this situation.

I'm going to have to do it. Sure, I can't rescue my eye. There's no way. The way that I've done plenty of times before in the past, including at the hands of... Are you applying that Mark Miller doesn't do his research or any prior reading before he decides to take a shit on a comic book run? Not that specifically.

What I'm saying is the buildup to this is incredibly lazy. That's about what I'm saying. I think that it's just, I remember reading it and not enjoying this for a multitude of reasons. And one of the reasons was, like, this, this bit doesn't make any sense. I can see Norman Osborne coming up with this scheme to get out of prison. Sure. I don't think the scheme is, I'm going to tell the most insane person in the world, an incredibly important secret, and just assume he won't tell anybody else.

and then get him to coerce Spider-Man to do the worst thing in the world which is to help his mortal enemy get out of prison like you do in exchange in exchange for giving him

his old decrepit Aunt May back again who I Norman Osborne has already fucked over plenty of crimes and kidnapped for fucking years and pretended that he died just the fuck over Spider-Man.

And mind you, Aunt May does not realize that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. She just keeps thinking these weird costumed villains keep kidnapping me for some reason. Yeah, that's what's really annoying about bringing her back, right? Because when she died in the clone saga, she revealed to Peter Parker before she died. She's like, you know, I've always known your Spider-Man, I'm not a fucking idiot. Yeah, I'm not stupid. Yeah. And it turns out

That was just a lie And she was stupid And she was kidnapped By the Green Goblin for like years And then just went up on her business I forgot about it She had to go bingo Like don't worry

Yeah There's no issue here whatsoever So then she gets kidnapped by the Scorpio Well she gets kidnapped by MacDonald Gargan I don't know I would assume That she does not get kidnapped

By the Scorpion Right Isn't how the story plays out the scorpion is not mentioned or shown McDonnell Gargan is is shown in this comic okay so you would assume that the old lady is kidnapped again by the most

mentally unstable person in the Spider-Man universe like if it's that easy that McDonnell Gargan can do it like you know what you mean guys well I mean he's a he's a former private investigator yep he couldn't figure out this Peter Parker was Spider-Man

I mean to be fair if they're like hey I need you to follow around this I need you to follow this teenage boy around I'm sure he wasn't thinking like oh this shouldn't this will be difficult Norman Osborne had to tell him that's got to be infuriating if you're MacGargin

McDonald's right do that ever get followed up on the Mac into McDonald Gargan just be like what the fuck I guarantee you I threw my life away for this. I bet you Mark Miller didn't even know that McDowlercchio was a prior investigation. He didn't read shit.

He didn't read a goddamn thing. So already, we're not off to fly and start. Spider-Man breaks Norman Osmond out of prison. And Norman Osmond was like, see you later, sucker. And runs away. And then Spider-Man and the black cat spider man's like who am i going to get to help me with this it's got to be the black cat and nobody else i need yeah i have tons of friends you talked earlier about how great he was great friends with johnny

storm nowhere to be seen no fuck the fantastic board not talking with them we don't need them i need uh cat i need a woman with extreme cleavage to be able to help me sort this problem way don't we all they break in a prison not that problem there's some problems there's some other problems other problems yes yeah not that one because the problem is now that spider on is broken

Norman Oswald of the prism is faced with the sinister 12 oh god which is just 12 yeah 12 of spider man's villains they're all like it seems excessive it seems excessive well you thought the sinister 6 is bad

imagine the sinister 12 I didn't actually write down who the sinister 12 were but I know who one of them is for sure and it's Hydraman I do feel like yeah I do feel like we discussed the Sinister 12 on that episode we were picking our own we must have we must have so let me see if I can find a list

okay I believe this is the group Google says helpfully the group was formed to kill Spider-Man as well as they are want to do real helpful green goblin Norman Osborne the vulture sandman electro shocker

hydraman my boy tombstone the lizard like why would the lizard give a shit about this chameleon the boomerang hitting all the heavy hitters and then our good friend McDonnell Gargan

who makes an appearance in the issue not dressed as the scorpion. He's not a scorpion. He's just McDonald's Garden. Well, what does the scorpion have inside its tail? Weird goop.

Oh, true. Yeah. I don't at all suspect that that was the connection they made. No. I guarantee you they did not. No. Again, this is Mark Miller. He's too busy thinking of

like what kind of jerk off, like, what kind of a masturbation joke can I make? Yeah, well, and the black cat's right there. Yeah. I need my character to look pathetic. Oh, well, that's this story. So, well, not really, because Spider-Man and the Black Cat pretty much, like, single-handedly beat the Sinister 12, including MacGargan, McDonald-Gargan, as the new venom.

So if you're going to introduce a big twist like that, maybe don't have them a, well don't have him simping around with 11 other fucking guys one of whom's the green goblin one of who's boomerang don't have him lose to the black cat and Spider-Man like you're going to bring him in

he's supposed to be his big bad and he just that's it like he doesn't look great right off the bat plus I hated his design this is a real stick in point for me. I hate the design of McDonnell Gargan as Venom because

he has eyes. Does that make sense? Yeah. He has eyes. Because Venom and Carnage have like the bits where Spider-Man's math would have been. Because that's the idea, right? They're trying to

mimic Spider-Man's mask. Correct. But then McDonald-Gargon Bargans Venom has the area where the eyes would be, and then regular human eyes. Well, because he had regular human eyes in his costume, right? Maybe that's why. Well, in the costume, but he's not wearing the costume. Yeah, I'm just saying maybe that's why it took that particular form, because it's like, oh, well, his costume, he normally has his eyes out.

No, but remember, we talked, he has a circle in his eyes. That one version of costume, yes. He usually has some kind of thing over his eyes. So, now I'm a McDonald-Gargon is the venom, and they stuck with this for fucking ever. They stuck with this for a long time. And I, potentially this was the beginning of my,

dislike for symbiates. At some point, in the 2000s of beyond, they just didn't know what to do with the symbiotes. Some would say they still don't. Hey, why don't we just rip carnage in half

and then make the scorpion into venom? Like, oh, hey, why don't not do those two things? Don't do those two things. They were like, none, no, no, no. We're going to do it. Eddie Brock's got cancer

and Carnage got ripped in half by the century. They did. So the venom symbiote picked a new host, that host was MacDonald Gargan. I don't know how, and I don't know if Norman Osborne knew that this was going to happen, and then that's why he picked McDonald Gargan, or if he already knew that McDonald Gargan was Venom,

because I will say this, if McDonald Gargan became Venom, wouldn't he already know who Spider-Man is? Yeah, he would know just by the fact that the symbiates shares its knowledge. Correct. So that means he must have had the symbiote after he made this deal with Norman Osborne. Because otherwise, why would Norman Osborne? Hey, I got a great secret for you. I know who Spider-Man is.

And McDonald's just like, yeah, I know. Already no. Thanks. Yeah. This fucking guy told me. You know. Guy who's hair looks like carpet. He told me.

The weird looking dude, you know. So that was all weird. Anyway, Eddie Brock is very sick. and he goes to, like, a homeless shelter because he doesn't have anything else to live for. The homeless shelter is owned by Martin Lee, who is also known as Mr. Negative. And Mr. Negative has this weird power

where, like, if he touches you, he can kind of, like, well, bring out your negative side, you know? And so because Venom still has... or Eddie Brock still had traces of the venom symbiote in him. Whenever Mr. Negative touched him, those traces of the venom symbiote turned the opposite. They were no longer negative. They then became positive.

And that somehow multiplied throughout Eddie Brock's body, causing him to no longer have cancer, and then also caused him to have a new symbiote suit, which was white but black stripes as opposed to black with white stripes is he's the opposite of venom

and what would be the opposite of venom here? No, it's anti-venom that's the opposite so Eddie Brock is now anti-venom now at the time Norman Osborne

and MacDonald Gargan have kept friendly with each other and Norman Osborne has created his own team of Thunderbolts to help him as he becomes the mayor of New York, I think, or he tries to get into Shield. Is it Shield? I think he tries

to get into Shield. So I don't think he's mayor in New York at this point, but he is a big person. People know who Norman Osborne is, and he's well respected. He's, I think

it's Shield. I'm not sure. But he's doing pretty well for himself so he has a thunderball to look after him and macdonald gargan and eddie brock come to blows at some point and it turns out that anti-venom poisons venom venom starts to melt and venom doesn't like this no so they can't fight for too long because it hurts them. So they hastily retreat with McDonnell Gargan in tow and bring him back to Oscorp

where they give him like a serum that will regenerate the venom symbiote, but it'll take a long time. So to get to that point, Norman Osborne gives McDonnell Gargan a suit to contain the venom, symbiote until it's good enough to be venom again

and that suit is the scorpion suit so there is a little bit where you see McDonnell Gargan as like a venomized scorpion. Yeah I remember there aspects of the venom but he had like a scorpion tail

coming out his back. It did look pretty cool. I mean that's the best design of I just did not like the venom design on McDonald's Corgan and I like that because that looked creepy

it looked weird it looked on natural I'm like that's great do that and that lasts an issue and then we broke out of it did away with that yes

so that was a storyline where we now had anti-venom and venom running around but I don't really think got followed up on too much and then we've talked about anti-vanum

and yeah oh it's Flash Thompson and why not, you know, all that shit. So, Scorpion, though, I know he, around this, a little bit after this is when they do the Dark Avengers, and he is posing as Spider-Man in Norman Osborne's Avengers lineup. So, like, he makes the Venom symbiate suit, like, smaller to, like, more cover his body, as opposed to look like a hulking beast. Yes. And I know that he, there's a period where, like, I don't know.

A lot of guys kind of, like, I remember reading the Dark Avengers storyline, and, like, he didn't really get a lot of shine or focus in it. He, like, for the most part, I remember him just kind of being there. And there was, like, a fight where they were fighting with the proper Avengers, and something happens, and he loses the symbiate for, like, a hot second, and then Captain Marvel gets it, or Miss Marvel gets it. Yeah. and then it goes back to him and yeah he felt it was the only time I've ever seen

like somebody with a symbiate not treated like a big deal so it's like oh yeah he's the scorpion with the symbiote and that's pretty much how it got treated it's like oh it's just a scorpion with a power upgrade well that's the thing

you would imagine if he went to all this effort to fucking put the symbiote on the scorpion it's to try and revitalize both characters you know venom for a long time had just been Eddie Brock and they ran out of shit for him to do so they thought well we'll we need to do something different with the venom symbiote and you know the scorpion nobody even using him as we've talked about he's very patchy with his career they thought well revitalize this character do two and one but it didn't really work

it didn't make the venom look any and they tried they had this bit like venom was going around like eating people's limbs and stuff I remember that trying to frame Jonah yeah so we were talking about the hippo and how the hippo ate got one of his legs eaten by venom so this whole thing went on

like because that's like a more extreme version of venom the old venom talked about eating brains but like you didn't see McDonnell Gargans venom actually eating people's like actually doing it it seemed like he was much more into it yeah

but like at no point in any of this did it seem like this guy was like that much of a threat like you said he's just like don't know gorgon yeah in the venom suit and i don't think that's what they intended to do they didn't i think they really didn't do enough with him then i mean that's just that but i think that they thought they were revitalizing both characters and i don't think that they did at all i think they didn't waste of both of them i think which sucks and then i mean i think Warren Ellis did his part with Thunderbolts when it was in that group.

But, and this is, you know, I'm not considering this into opportunity to talk shit about Brian Michael Bendis, but, you know, the shoe fits to wear it. He was right in that Dark Avengers run and didn't do dick with him. That whole Dark Avengers run was mainly focused on Norman Osborne and Century and really no one else. Oh, you want to hear a fun thing? about the sentry. Sure.

So, we were talking earlier, how many times you think McDonald Gargan has died? Yeah, my prediction was two times because he seems like the kind of person they'd kill off twice. To my recollection, it was just once.

Okay. And here's what they did. So, the molecule man, you're familiar with the molecule man? I am. You can do that. do all sorts of weird, wacky stuff

involving molecules. Yeah. So they called him that. So the Molligoo man just had enough of fucking Macdonald Gargan and he turned McDonnell Gargan and the symbiote

just into goo which I would class as being dead. I would say so. Yeah? No, I haven't read this. He's either dead or it's the ending of I have no mouth, but I must scream, you know?

because that's what it sounds like happened because he got turned to you like fucking aim turned him into something yeah um so I haven't read this so I don't know the specifics of it I'm just going by this part of the research

Malku man turned McDonnell Gargan the symbiote into goo and then the sentry just restored them it's fine don't worry oh well I want to a little bit because when has the century

been able to do that it has he done it again has he ever done that it almost sounds like you want to you want to file a complaint against Brian Michael Bendis I think up to this point

I've been filing complaints about a lot of people Mark Miller specifically oh boy yeah no I could do that all day too you know it does occur to me that we definitely I think it's I've I of

the three of us I think I've made my my enemies in the comic industry well more known I think so so anyway he is he doesn't like talking shit he doesn't like talking shit that John he's a good boy he will fight

American Senate but we will say that like actually no I think Grant Morrison's X-Men run was great then he gets a little upset um i don't know what the fuck his problem is it was great he doesn't he like everybody else who hates that run don't like the fact that they had magnito

basically to use your words and demonetize us be a cunt i actually looked up the interview do we talk about this we did because he called him a twat yes but it's funnier to call him a cunt i think so as well you know so just beep but i were like funny

noises you know so darker so dark avengers ends and part of the dark avengers ending is a lot of those guys getting you know locked up and matt gargan was forcefully removed from the symbiate the symbiate the symbiate became part of the you know property of the united states government that's how flash thompson got it so what happens to our naked and afraid matt gargan or mcdonald gargan who has been associated with venom for their a good period of time now he goes back to be in Scorpion. Oh, okay. But this time, it's a different

inventor that gives him an upgraded Scorpion suit. It's Alasher Smyve. Oh. Famous for the Spider Slayer. Yeah, but the Spider Slayers who slayed zero spiders.

None. There's not a lot of single spider. They thought, Let's upgrade McDonnell Gargan. He needs it. So they do this whole run where McDonald Gargan is working with Alasier Smith. And they do a thing where like, I don't remember if it was MacDonald or if it was Alistair or the Spider-Slayers. I don't remember.

I did read up. I don't remember. But they end up like cornering Spider-Man and some of his. I think they're trying to kill Jonah Jameson. Of course. Smite doesn't like him either. No. And

in the course of things Jonah Jameson's wife Martha who Batman and Superman are very familiar with jumps in front of thank you she she she takes the the the the damage for jona jameson and she dies okay

in face of him which i think everybody in the world was like you didn't need to you didn't have to do that no if you had to choose we're definitely going to pick the you you know but um so that's that's a little i think that's important because you know scorpion is involved with that, even if he didn't. I don't remember if he did directly kill her, but he was involved with it, and that's a measure of revenge against the Jamison's.

So, later on, Dr. Octopus is dying, as you know. Yes. He gets very old and sick, and he's dying. So he makes a call to some people to try and break him out of

prison. And the scorpion is like, sorry about. about it. I'm your man. Baker people out of prison, I'm vaguely aware of that concept. All right. I got to, I got to kidnap this old woman. Yeah.

Well, now he's kidnapped an old man. An old dead corpse, you know. So the Scorpion is one of three people to answer Dr. Octavist. Do you remember who the other two people are?

No. I don't know. We have mentioned both of them today. Well, I mean, you mentioned the Sinister 12, so I know I at least have potentially 11 options to pick from. Electro? No. Shocker. No.

Craven the, no, Hydro, man. I don't think you mentioned. Shocker at all, did we? No, you mentioned. You mentioned he was one of the Sinister 12. Was he? I don't think he was. You read the list, bud.

I did. and I'll find that list okay he was on it yeah all right good old Herman um yeah

hydraman okay hydraman's one of them um yeah Sandman no the other one you should

Camelian you should you should really remember black no no not black cat no somebody you specifically

mentioned I don't know. I really, I'm going to draw a blank. I can sit here and guess all day. The trapster. Oh, good old paste pot Pete. No. I like the alliteration, Dylan.

I like the chabster. It's cool. That's fair. That is a better name, admittedly. As far as I remember, it was those three guys. It was definitely hydramon. Okay. And I had the scorpion.

We got the power. of scorpion, glue, and water. You know what, fuck it, who cares? So they're trying to break, they got to break Dr. Octopus out of prison. Which they do. And then they bring him to Stark Industries where a lot of Spider-Man's

friends and foe, well, not foes, friends and relatives are hiding out. Because at this point, as we know, Dr. Octopus's mind is now inside Spider-Man's body. Yes. So Dr. Octavis, anticipating Peter Parker fighting back somehow, assembled all of Peter Parker's, you know, associates in Stark Industries to try and deter some kind of attack from a crippled dead.

A dead body. A dead body. Yeah. So what happens during this is good old McDonald-Gargon, realizes that Jonah James is in the building as well and thus as he often is wont to do

kind of neglects his own duties and tries to kill Jay Jonah Jameson but this point he loves killing and he loves healing Jay Jonah Jameson at this point

enough of Spider-Man's memories are in mingling with Dr. Octopus's memories. The point where Dr. Octavis has some kind of affinity for all these people now and Peter Parker's

just raw goodness and dislike for anybody dying and takes over and so instinctively, Dr. Octopus as a superior Spider-Man stops

like Donald Gargan from destroy destroying Jay Jonah Jameson. Yeah. And the way he does this is he punches him so hard. He punches the scorpion so hard that his jaw just like flies off his body. So completely. Remove the bone.

Yeah. The muscles holding it. So all of it gone. Just he's fucked. So after this again, smith. gets together with MacDonald Gargan and, like, mixed, like, a metallic mixture for his job. Yeah. Because that's cool.

There is some, something happens where, like, he gets healed, you know, and what I would imagine is a very unsatisfactory manner. But McDonnell Gargan works with the spider slayers for a bit. And then, during the King and Black storyline, no. comes back to earth and uh carnage no it's it's the absolutely carnage but i think where carnage is going around to collect all of the codexes yeah within people anybody that has worn a symbiote has some trace of that symbiote inside them and carnage is trying to take it out of them be summoned though and macdonald gargan is one of the guys that they are are um targeting and he does not paint a good picture in this he just runs away like a little baby

yeah i imagine it doesn't go well for him yeah so that happens there is something that happens with him and lee price it was like the fourth or fifth venom and a thing that i'm sure we already talked about in a symbiote episode yeah that i fucking hate it fucking hated it so he has something to do with that but it's it's not important none of that was important and i think we're coming to the end of this where we're saying the scorpion is not important the scorpion has to continue to do stuff recently but like it's not it's not worth talking about none of this is really that important i mean essentially it sounds like if i came to you and maybe we do this at one point and i'm like hey i'd love to do an episode where i talk about the scarecrow from dc comics

There's a couple of storylines I could bring up, but for the most part, it's like, Scarecrow shows up, scares some people, gets a shit kicked out of him, throw him back in jail. It sounds very reminiscent of that. But it is really funny how, like, that animated series did paint this image of, like, I feel like he should be a big deal. And, like, he's so far below. Like, I remember, like, you know, like, I remember being, like, listening to you guys talk about Hobgoblin and, like, how much. you guys loved him and like all his big moments all these big storylines and stuff and I remember being a kid and thinking like yeah hobgoblin's pretty big deal like the scorpion's a big deal right no not at all not one bit I always like it it it seems like I would say if you would

recall the scorpion if we were to rank like the tier spider villains he might be a C and that might be generous based off the conversation we've had it's tough like they tried to rehabilitate him so much that you could argue a C but I feel like because if you just look at

if you just like purely look at the scorpion as like the impact that he had as a villain he started up strong and then bonded for 60 years yeah yeah so yeah D's probably like if you're talking

about in terms of impact yeah He's not... Because even when he was Venom, he didn't have much to do. I mean, he was Venom in the Dark Rain storyline, which was a big deal. But even then, that was largely inconsequential. There's a lot of that stuff seem to be. But anyway... No.

Dylan, John's not here to talk about movies, but he's probably getting closer to 1,000. But what do you get up to you during the week? I do a radio show where I talk about... hedgehogs I guess and I also play music on the show so if you like grunge music or just if you like whatever music I like which depends week to week

then listen to the show it's available on online you're going to ByncedigitalRadio.com you can listen to my show at 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock on Monday nights you have to change the time that's the UK time so whatever you are in the world

just adjust it's an R behind it's an R so in in UK it's nine o'clock but in Switzerland it's 10 o'clock so if you're in Switzerland 10 o'clock you're in the East Coast of America it's five five o'clock so there you go these we're hitting the two main markets of music East Coast America yeah Switzerland so there you go um sometimes they stream on Twitch but I don't I haven't streamed on Twitch for a while, but Spookaeroo on Twitch where I draw stuff. I posted online on Team Crow's YouTube page. All right. I have another show called Archel Cup and a writing project called Henry's usual.

Links to that as well as Dylan's Twitch and the digital radio station are in the description of the YouTube video as well as the notes on the podcast. As a reminder, if you're watching us on YouTube, we have this show. in audio format anywhere where you can listen to podcasts and if you're listening to the podcast format of this you can see our lovely little faces as we discuss these very same topics to you

and you can see what the inside of our homes look like isn't that exciting? White wall but until next time you can find us on social media and stuff for Smart Avengers we'll see you around next time though you all enjoy yourselves out there

and start thinking of how you can be a better MacDonald Gargan. Yes. Or if you are the Scorpion, try not to go insane. Yeah. It seemed like he was doing okay until he went insane, and then it just fell apart. That's all, I would say that's the case for everybody that has gone insane at some point. Seems to be a side-effective insanity.

Things tend to fall apart. As soon as you become insane, it all falls apart. Oh, geez. I wouldn't advise it Wouldn't advise it If you're insane Try not to be All right

Good night everybody Bye bye