The Smark Avengers - Vol 3, Ep 21: The Smark Avengers Talk the Death of Superman

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

It was the biggest storyline of the 90s and grabbed headlines across the world - DC Comics was doing the unthinkable and killing Superman! Join Corey, Dylan, and Jon as the Smark Avengers discuss the Death of Superman storyline and how Lois & Clark - the New Adventures of Superman had everything to do with its creation!

say I've been recorded. Oh, there it is. There it is. It was a slight delay. Corey, can I ask you a question real quick? Yeah, what's up? How's your bladder? That's fine.

Oh, I guess. I'll just make a conversation. I was going to actually start off by saying, have you seen any of the set photos of the new Superman movie? That's a better way to start off the show. Yeah. I've seen Nathan Philly. green lantern. Oh, you've seen Guy Gardner. Yeah, that one was a surprise. I still am

interested to see how that works. I was surprised by just how little green in the green lantern costume there is. Yeah, that was weird. Well, I think it's because like, okay, so the, there is a theory that I read. The theory is that the point of this movie is it takes place in a world where Superman has not existed before. And through some circumstance, he's there now. So Guy Gardner and the other characters that are there are part of a superhero team called the Terrifics. And that was a DC book that came out not too long ago because the color pattern and their uniforms look like the Terrifics costumes. So like this is a world that doesn't know Superman and like his sort of like what his presence now means to this world. But again, that is only a theory. But I have

seen some of the set photos and I think it is going for a more uniform approach because I recognize like that that terrific style uniform I think it's the terrifix is not a good name for a group yeah it was kind of it was a book I didn't read and I'll okay so so the terrifics are led by Mr. Terrific. I see and Mrs. Terrific and no no no there's metamorpho and plastic man and very stretchy man wait what was the first guy metamorpho can he turn into fire

that's one of the things you can turn into you can turn into gas and like rocks and water can he turn invisible no I don't think well I mean you can turn into a gas and like you know most gases are colorless okay interesting and I think the other person I know boy this is I think it might be tomorrow girl

I'm not too sure. Anyway, Mr. Terrific was a character from the 1940s that was brought back probably like 20 years ago into a new kind of a role. Yeah, I'm not curious who were in the Terrifics. Yes, so Phantom Girl, Plastic Man, Mr. Terrific and Metamorpho. so it looks like instead of having plastic man they're having guy gardener green lantern and instead of phantom girl it is a hawk girl

hawk girl yes okay i thought it said hot girl i'm like hot girl yeah a little bit like there you go there you go that'll keep it relevant yeah a moment of time spit on that thing that's by the time you hear this

that joke Already be outdated. Yeah. But no, I've seen people talking about the Superman costumes and people get so weird about talking about costumes. I think it looks good. I was really suspicious about the S, but, you know, I think it looks fine.

I think the color palette's right, though, because I think, like, the Cavill costume was too dark. And I'm one of those people that thinks the costume needs the trunks. It's good color blocking. I guess, but it does look kind of weird. in real life him wearing pants on the outside of his costume. Yeah, but I just, we've had so, like you said, that Henry Caval costume where it's not, it feels like there's just, it's missing something.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah. So, hi, everybody. Welcome to the Smart Avengers. My name is Corey. And with me are Dylan and John. And we're going to be talking about Superman stuff today. And I'm quite excited for it.

Dylan, John, how familiar are you with the death of Superman story? I know that Superman dies. Yeah, that's about my knowledge as well. Although I know who kills him as well. Yes, we know he kills him. And then also, he comes back to life at some point. Yes, yes. But also that whenever he dies, four other Superman turn up and pretend to be Superman.

Yep. And then the real Superman turns up and says, I'm Superman. And then they're like, all right, good. That's that one. That's the real Superman. That's the guy who did it. Yeah. Not the robot. Not the robot. Which one? There you go. There you go. There you go. So, yeah, we'll talk about the reign of the Superman. So the death of Superman was a very big thing in comic. they sold like 6 million copies of this book. It kind of led to a bit of a renaissance period for the comic books that we've touched on when we were discussing like 90s characters and stuff. But so the death of Superman though came about in a really weird roundabout way. Have you guys ever heard of a television show called Lois and Clark, the New Adventures of Superman? Yes. Not only have I heard of it, I used to watch it.

Me too. We used to be on the, it's the BBC too? I think so. Yeah. Oh, I can't remember now. But it was definitely like, I want to say Saturday, like afternoon TV. That seems like it's good Saturday afternoon TV. Yeah. Like I can't ever think of like what would be on TV on a Saturday afternoon. But that feels right for Saturday. That was that kind of show. Yeah. So for those who we're not aware, uh, Lois and Clark, The Adventures of Super Bowl. was a television show in the 90s that started Terry Hatcher and Dean Kane as the titular characters. And the show was not like an adventure show per se, but it more focused on the love triangle between Lois, Clark, and Superman with essentially Lois pining for Superman while not realizing that he was really Clark Kent. And Clark slash Superman wanting to make sure that Lois loved him for the right reasons and not just because he's Superman.

So what does this have to do with the death of Superman? Nothing. You would be surprised. I just wanted to tell you about how much I love Dinkian. Yeah. So like Marvel and Disney, Warner Brothers has a tendency to treat their comment book wing as a farm for intellectual property. So in the 90s, this is post-crisis. So it's early 19, I think it's 1992 when this is first getting kicked around.

And the crisis was like mid-late 80s. So the creative team for Superman were kind of like, what can we do to boost sales for this comic? And so they had this idea of like, what if we do a storyline where Lois marries Clark, but Clark has not revealed that he's actually Superman? So like that's an angle in the comics where like they're a married couple and he's still keeping that secret from her.

The show Lois and Clark had just begun though, and Warner Brothers wanted any sort of wedding storyline to tie into the show whenever it aired. So they were like, you can do that, but you can't do that until we're ready to do it on the show. So that kind of handcuffed the creative team because they don't have an idea if the character, if the show is going to last that long or if they're going to get married on the show or not. Basically, like Warner Brothers just said, you can't do that one until we tell you it's time to do it. So while they're having their pitch meeting, one of them, one of the writers just said, what if we just kill Superman? and the idea was born

so it is you guys so to tie into the Smart Avengers thing we've all heard the story of how David Arquette became WCW World Champion right yep because Tony Chivani jokingly said they should just make Arquette the champion

and a little man named Vince Russo decided to roll with the idea because he thought it would get ratings he's just a little man just a little man from Brooklyn bro bro pro so anyway uh so obviously the difference is that that was led to a lot of people to believe it was the end of wcw uh but instead this was actually very widely successful for dc comics uh there was a lot of media coverage that it got when the news broke that they were actually going to kill superman off and that it was uh so it was like

a huge to do and it's so weird that like comics that will happen in because very recently it happened a few years ago when they did a storyline where Tim Drake, who was the third Robin, it is currently one of the Robbins, you know, came out as bisexual. It was like a huge news story. It's like Robbins Gay and, you know, like talking heads on like Fox News or talking about how it's terrible for children or whatever. And before that, they did the same thing with Superman's son John, where it came out that John was by.

And it was again like Superman's Gay. What are we doing? America, the downfall. You really like it about that? Was there like, we don't mind that a crazy rich billionaire just decided to beat up a bunch of people and then basically kidnap an orphan child

and force him into becoming his ward and dressing him up in a very interesting costume. That's fine. But that kid being a gay, no. Not cool. We don't mind him beating up people, torturing him. We don't mind all the violence of comics. We don't give a shit about that.

Work away. That's a great mess. for kids to have. One day you too could dress up like a weirdo and beat people up. That's fine. Don't be gay. Don't be gay.

That's so weird, don't you think? It's incredibly. Nothing else. You didn't have an issue with the psychopath clawing? None of that's just freaking you eyes, no? You know, I remember, like, my mom very pointedly at the time

saying that she's like, it's disgusting what they're doing with killing Superman. And, like, that was the kind of, like, outrage that it was getting and it caused a lot of people around to read it. So, so real quick, the death of Superman is one storyline that is comprised of three acts. Act one is it's doomsday. Act two is funeral for a friend and act three is reign of the Superman, which you alluded to earlier, Dylan. So long does the whole storyline run for? So great question. It ran from December of 1992 to October of 1993. In fact,

34 issues across six titles. And there was a three month gap after Superman died to sell that the death was going to be permanent. Nice. So in reality, the creative team knew the whole time that the death was going to be temporary, but they wanted to keep the future solicitations from spoiling the return. So that's why they had a three month gap. And all of the creative team had to sign NDAs to keep one another from spoiling the story. But in reality, the whole point of the death of Superman was to illustrate why the character is important to the broader convict.

a community and to do that by exploring what his absence would mean. So let's start with Act 1. It's Doomsday? But before we go too far, do you guys know who Doomsday is and what his story is? I don't know what his story is. I know, like, I don't know what his origin is. I know kind of what the basis of the character is in that, you know, he, um, he adapts to stop. So if he gets, he can't property die so he can get hurt by something or he's apparently killed by something, but he'll just come back and he'll come back impervious to the way he died. Something like that.

Yeah. So really spot on on that. So essentially what happened is when they started getting to the creative process of like who's going to kill Superman, they figured out it could not be an established character. because it was they had so many years of storylines where these characters had failed they all had a dependency on using like technology or kryptonite and they wanted to like have a monster so they wanted to create a new character who was a thoughtless merciless killing machine that couldn't be reasoned with and wouldn't have like snappy dialogue or anything like they just wanted a rudeish beast it would be weird if lex or just shot him in the head exactly that would be a bit of

an anticlimactic. How do you make that into 20 issues? Right. So the name Doomsday came about because somebody wrote on their brainstorming whiteboard Doomsday for Superman and they just went, that's a great name. So let's get into the origins of Doomsday. This is, I think you're going to really enjoy this because it's very reminiscent of Ben Riley. Okay. So Doomsday was created on a prehistoric krypton, which at the time was considered the deadliest planet in the galaxy, and it was filled with all these vicious predators, and the environment was hazardous, and no one could survive it. So this is like pre, like Jorrel, pre-Cryptonian race, like planet. It was like the dinosaur era, essentially. So a team of scientists led by a name, led by a man named Bertron.

Great name. I love it already. wanted to, so he and his team wanted to create the ultimate killing machine. So he took a, he took a baby, left it on the surface of the planet, and waited for it to be killed by whatever found it first. Okay. And then he scooped up the remains of the baby, cloned it, and put it back on the planet. So something else could kill it. That's bullshit, man. Whenever that guy does it, it's fine.

But whenever I do it in real life, that's a crime. So each time Bertrand and his team of scientists cloned this baby, they would alter its genetic material so that it would survive whatever killed at the last time. Basically, they forced evolution with every death. So you know how Ben Riley got like killed and resurrected 38 times? Technically, yes. Doomsday was killed and resurrected over a thousand times. Okay. Oh.

So, and of course, he was forced. to remember all of those deaths. So he knew the pain. He knew the fear. He knew the cold sensation of passing away. He had all the memories. And so the more this went on, the harder it was to kill the baby

and the longer the experiment would last. The harder was to kill the baby. Stop it on TikTok, please. Yes. So this baby started to grow and age because of how much longer was taken to kill it. So eventually the creature became nearly unkillable, and because it was forced to remember all of the times it died, it was forced to relive the experiences. It began to just hate all life.

So that's when the rampage is starting. In this process of death and recloning and rebirth, Doomsday killed almost every living thing on this planet. he killed all of the predators he killed anything that basically would move until he turned on Bertrand and the other scientists and killed them Oh when he said turned on Yep

Okay Yep Yep Yep Gotcha I thought something He's like boy that that's crazy baby That dog die is super sexy

But I got a good mix wires so that's okay so so doomsday took control of their ship and basically flew it off crash landed into another planet and started the process again and at this point it had to develop the ability to regenerate on its own it didn't need to be recloned its body would just heal itself and evolve that way that way so this happened for a long time until doomsday encountered a race of aliens called the calatonians who combined their powers into an energy being called the radiant who was able to kill Doomsday. So they bound and shackled his corpse and shot it off into the deepest depths of space. And wouldn't you know, the body crash landed on Earth. Ah, shit. And it crash landed with such a force that the casket was buried deep into the surface of the planet, where Doomsday laid and healed and survived to evolve what had, you know,

evolved to survive what killed him last. And then he woke up. So this is the beginning of the It's Doomsday arc. And the very first issue of It's Doomsday, Doomsday punches its way through the surface of the earth, like punching his way out of the ground, and crushes a bird with one hand and snaps a deer's neck. That's unnecessary.

Yes. And then he just started rampaging and destroying and killing anything that came its way. So the Justice League got called out. So real quick, do you guys know who the Justice League are, right? Sure. Yeah. Like Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian, Monster. So fun thing about... Yeah, tell him a ghost. So fun thing about post-crisis Justice League. When Crisis on Infinite Earths happened, they relaunched all of the books with different creative teams, and they got to be really kind of like stingy with the characters because they wanted to be like, this is a new continuity. We want to make sure that like the characters get firmly established before we start sharing them in other books.

So the writers of Justice League were Keith Giffin and J.M. de Mattis. So they were basically, they're like, all right, so Justice League, who can we use? And D.C. said, well, you can't use Superman. You can't use Wonder Woman. You can't use the Flash. You can't use Aquaman. You can't use, like, they just gave them this like, who's who list. And then I guess eventually one of them realized, like, oh, we really kind of fuck these guys over. Like, well, you can have Martian Manhunter and Batman. And they're like, well, who else can we have? And they said, I don't know. So they started to assemble like what's left. So the team of the Justice League International, or it was just Justice League and then became Justice League International. They was Martian Manhunter and Batman.

And then they found Booster Gold, who is a character from the future who stole a time machine to come back to the past to become a superhero and rich and famous. Blue Beetle, who was the character that Steve Ditko created for Charlton Comics after he left Marvel. So a lot of Blue Beetle's personality is based off of Spider-Man. Guy Gardner, who is the brash and arrogant Green Lantern, and just a lot of other C&D list characters, like Fire and Ice, and Mr. Miracle, and, you know, it became like this weird hodgepodge of characters. So to make up for it, de Mattis and Giffin, who are very funny guys, just said, fuck it. Let's make the comic like a sitcom. So Justice League was framed like the show MASH, where essentially it's just a comedy book.

And there are a lot of jokes in it and a lot of silly storylines in it. And it was a very successful book that went on for a very long time. So like at this point, the Justice League are kind of jokes. They're kind of goofballs. And so they go to confront Doomsday and they get fucking wrecked. Like, Doomsday beats the shit out of the Justice League for like three issues in a row. Like, you know, like fire doesn't work on him.

Ice doesn't work on him. He's able to punch through force fields. He can negate green lantern rings, gadgets and technology. All of that stuff just fails and fails. It fails spectacularly. and like Doomsday nearly kills multiple members of the team and then to tie back into it Dylan Doomsday sees an advertisement for professional wrestling

in Metropolis and he sees violence and he likes violence so Doomsday starts to move towards Metropolis He moves away from the violence he's already committing He's already won Oh okay Yeah so he's just like all right there's more violence that way So I'm going to keep going that way

And meanwhile, like the Justice League are like trying to attack him just getting swatted away like, you know, like flies. So Superman realized what's happened to the Justice League and he realizes where Doomsday is headed. And so he's going to confront him ahead on. And Superman realizes he has a problem very quickly because he's never fought anything like Doomsday. So in addition to Doomsday hating life and killing everything that he can, he can sense. Kryptonian DNA and it brings back memories of all of the times he died as a baby on the planet Krypton and that just made him angrier and more violent. So Superman realizes that not only can Doomsday go punch for punch with him at full strength like Superman's like not holding back,

which is something he's notoriously done. Doomsday has no regard for anything around him. So he is killing innocent people and destroying things all around him and just basically putting people in danger in the process. So Superman is like stuck between trying to protect and save innocent lives while keeping Doomsday occupied because he's the only person that can at least slow him down. So saving like his fellow heroes and protecting innocence and like all of these blows that he's exchanging to Doomsday just pushes Superman beyond his limits. Plus if you've ever seen a picture of Doomstay, you see he has like these jagged like bones sticking out of him. that pierces Superman's skin, bulletproof skin, just goes right in.

I mean, yeah, bulletproof, but not spike-proof. Not bony spike-proof. Yeah. So while Superman is doing this, like the rest of the hero community is trying to get involved. Like the Justice League's trying to get involved and it's not working. There's this science organization called Cadmus. They're trying to get involved and that's not working. He's got friends and family that are like the supporting character in books.

And like everybody's failing to stop Doomsday or just sloth. him down. So it gets to a point where it's in the middle of Petropolis. This is the last stand. And Superman only has so much left in him. He uses the last of his reserve strength. He hits Domsday one more time. And Domsday hits him right back one more time. And the force of the hit kills Domsday instantly. And Superman's left with mortal wounds. And so like the final images that like readers see is Superman dying in the arms of the lowest. Lane and his torn cape blowing in the wind like a tattered flag. And so like really quick, like that's the death of Superman. It was just, uh, it was this kind of well done thing to show like he could be pushed beyond his limits. So that's act one is its doomsday. And it ends on a fucking bummer.

I mean, I don't think it ends in a bummer. I think it ends on exactly what the series promised. promise the death of Superman. There is a death of Superman. I think so far this has been really good stuff, right? I really like the idea of Doomsday

as a character. I like the idea of this kind of thing that evolves and can adapt to whatever issues going on. Because I think that's a really appropriate thing to fight Superman, who we've talked about before on this show being like this super

man. who's really hard to beat. Like he just has every power. You know, how do you beat this guy? I'm like, well, what happens if he fights somebody

that has a similar move set? That's very interesting. I really like, like, this is what I remember about reading about the depth of Superman is that I really liked

this part. And yours and the opposite of it, I really liked it, to the point where I'm tempted to buy the trade paperback. I really like all of this that I've heard so far. I will tell you, I neglected to mention one really weird thing that is happening.

And it's like on its own, like if you read it in the context of like reading a collective volume of this, it's going to seem really fucking weird. But I feel like I have to point it out. And that is Supergirl is around at this time as well. And Supergirl is in a romantic relationship with Lex Luthor 2. Excuse me. Yes. So long story short, Lex Luther had died,

but he had a cloned body, and his mind went into the cloned body, and it was like kind of different, and he had this romantic relationship with Supergirl, and like Supergirl wants to get involved in the fight, but Lex is like, no, don't because you'll die. And like, that's, you know, that's a proper angle in that as well. And it leads into a lot of Supergirl's motivation,

and the later acts of like guilt, you know, like she feels like she could have helped in some regard. Clones in the 90s? Yeah, right. I also have neglected to mention the character of Bibbo Bagowski. How could you have neglected to bring that guy out? So Bibbo is like a sentimental favorite character for a lot of people. He's basically this dude who owns a bar on a rough side of town of Metropolis. And he's like the biggest Superman fan.

in the world. And so, like, Bibbo is, like, one of those people who are, like, trying to help stop Doomsday. And he's just, like, he's just this dude who works in a bar. But, like, that's kind of, like, shows, like, the threat level of this is, like, you know, these people who are wholly unprepared and have no business trying to get involved or still trying to get involved. Does he head Doomsday with a hockey stick? No, he has a, I think he helps, like, Cadmus with a laser.

Okay. Yeah. So, are you ready to move into Act 2? No. Okay. I'm good with the first part. Call us wrap us up. So funeral for a friend is Act 2. So Superman's death traumatizes the superhero community as basically no one thought he could die.

like they just thought he was always going to be invincible and he'd always be around so like people are kind of shook at the core of their like identity of like as heroes themselves because it's not just like regular everyday people it's other heroes so his funerals attended by the superior community some super villains show up to pay respect the fucking president of the united states shows up who was bill clinton bill clinton oh okay and i think hillary was there too oh oh so everybody's wearing these black arm bands with the Superman logo on him. So several issues of this art is spread across a couple of different titles. And it just follows various heroes and supporting characters and just trying to illustrate, like, them grieving his loss. So, for example, like Superman's adoptive father, Jonathan Kent, is alive. And, like, the death of his son, like, causes him to have a nearly fatal heart attack that leaves him in a coma. for a period of time. You know, crime and metropolis

rises because now it's like open season. Like there's nobody here to stop us because Superman always stopped him. So other heroes are like trying to fill in for Superman and it's like you've ever heard of the Guardian? No. Yeah, exactly. I think I have.

He was in Arrow. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, he showed up with the character should have an arrow. But yeah, so it's like a, he's like a street level kind of Captain America kind of character. With a shield. Yeah, with a shield. And like it's, you know, there's these other kind of characters that are in Metropolis,

but they're just not prepared for that. Like they don't, they can't do it. And Bibbo Bikowsky, this woman, he finds this woman on the docks by the bay and she's sobbing. And he goes up to her, he's like, what's wrong? And she's like, oh, I, you know, my dog had puppies and I didn't think I'd have the money to get food for them, but I just won the lottery and I put the puppies in a bag and dropped him in the river. So what? Yeah, yeah. Wait, I don't follow.

You didn't have money for it, but then he won the lottery so you can totally pay for the dogs. Yeah, she didn't realize she'd won the lottery until right the second after she dropped those dogs in the river. That can't be right. She threw the dogs into the river and then checked her lottery ticket. That's that's backwards. So anyway, Bibbo dives into the water and gets the bag out. And like all of the dogs except for one had died. And like, you know, that was kind of his thing of like feeling worthless because he wasn't strong.

But like even though he, you know, he was able to save one. And like that was enough for him. Like you had to prove his kind of worth. One of the other things is so Cadmus, who I mentioned previously, super shady science organization, fucking tried to steal Superman's body. So they were going to experiment on Superman's body and

were stopped by Lois and Supergirl. And like it's a funeral for a friend. There's not like a main real arc behind it. It's more of just like a fallout series of like this is how everybody's taking this. Right. And I think like the Justice League like it shakes them because you know, like they'd known they were kind of

goofy and they like were you know always kind of having a good time but like you know like blue beetle like nearly bled out and booster gold had his arm shattered and like they all got fucked up and so like they're kind of like what are we doing like have we been I know like we aren't serious but like are we like this bad like what's wrong with us you know so a three month break occurs. There are no Superman titles that come out. So action comics, the Adventures of Superman, regular Superman of Man of Steel, none of those books come out.

And after that three-month break, while this is going on, the creative team for Superman have decided that instead of introducing one new Superman character, each writer that works on those books, we're going to create their own version of Superman for each of the four titles. This way, they had complete creative freedom and could do whatever they wanted to do with these characters. So this is going to lead into reign of the Superman. So before we really kind of get into the reign of the Superman,

let's break down who the Superman are. One of the robot. Yeah, from memory, do you remember who the Superman were? Steel is the robot, isn't he? I will... He's... Shaquille O'Neal. Yes.

Shekel O'Neill is a robot, and he is a superman. Superman. Yes? Not quite. Yes. John, do you remember? There's steel. There's,

oh, man, John, do you remember them? There's a cyborg, Superman, is there? Yes, there is a cyborg. Um. Uh-oh. Yeah. There's Blue Superman.

I always think of, like, three of them, and then the fourth one, I kind of forget about too. Okay. All right. So we'll start, we'll just kind of break up down real quick. So debuting in the Adventures of Superman,

Carl Kessel was the writer, and he created Superboy, who was a modern take on the Superboy identity that was last used to tell stories about like a teenage Clark Kent being Superman or being Superboy in Smallville. So this was supposed to be the Superboy of the MTV generation. As such, Superboy was cocky. He was brash. He was a punk kid. He like wore a leather jacket instead of a cape. He wore sunglasses. He had like a trendy haircut. And he was kind of like where all of them were trying to convince like, you know, the whole idea was like Lois Lane was trying to figure out were any of these people actually Superman. He was very quick to tell people he was not Superman. Anyone that would listen, he would say, I'm a clone of Superman.

Superman because he was created by Cadmus. And they basically idea was that they created him to fill in for Superman. And the issue is that he got out too early. So the idea that they had was they got enough of Superman's genetic material that they could make a new body. and they rapidly started to age the body. So the idea was that once he got to the approximate age that Superman was, they would release him and they would have their own Superman that they could control. Because Project Cadmus bit shady.

So what happened instead was when the body got to be about 15, 16 years old, he broke out on his own. And because of that, he just looked like a young Clark. but he did not have any cryptonian powers. So for the longest time, he didn't have any cryptonian powers. In recent years, the character, you know, he, well, not recent years, but later years, the character would develop cryptonian powers, and it was revealed that he was only half of Superman's clone, and the other half was a different character. But anyway, Superboy had what they called tactile telekinesis.

Tactile. Yes. So what that meant was that he had a form of telekinesis. It was like a field around his body that he could use to simulate a lot of superman's powers. So like bullets would bounce off of him because he could just stop the bullets with, you know, with his mind. He had super strength because he had this extra field of energy around him. He could fly because he could force that he could lift himself in the air because telekinesis. You know, he did not have heat vision.

He did not have the cold. breath, but he was able to replicate the other powers just through tactile telekinesis. Okay. So Connor, he later became Connell. He got the name when he met Superman and earned his trust, and he gave him his own Kryptonian name. And then later he took on a human name of Connor Kent with the idea that he was like Superman's cousin, or he was Clark Kent's cousin. So that was the first of them.

The second one, which you guys referred to, was originally referred to as the Man of Steel. And he was later renamed to just Steele. So he has an African-American man named John Henry Irons, who was created by Louis Simmons, who was also in, this is also happening in The Adventures of Superman. And he was kind of there to be an everyman character. So this is the one you're referring to that was played by Shaq. Yes. The A-Shack.

Yes. So steel did not have powers, but he was a gifted inventor and an engineer. And he created this suit that gave him enhanced strength and flight, and he fought with a sledgehammer in tribute to the American Folktale Hero John Henry. I thought you were going to say Triple H then. Nope. American Folk Hero, Ch, Chiflates. who debuted the WWW4 years after this.

So anyway, John Henry Irons was inspired by Superman after Superman saved him when he fell off of a tall building while he was working on the job. And kind of like Tony Stark, he created his suit after he found out that gangs were using weapons he designed during his time as a weapons manufacturer. So the thing about John Henry Irons is that he was he also never claimed to be Superman. He just wore the S as a tribute. But he was the most like Superman of the four in that he had high morals and he had and he was humble. So Steele would later go on to have his own series later on in life.

He actually just had a mini series not that long ago written by the actor who played Wharf in Star Trek the next generation. Yeah. So the third one is the one that I kind of will always forget about to a degree. And it is Eradicator. How could you forget a guy called Erotator? Don't worry with the fact that both me and John couldn't remember him. That's okay. So Eradicator was a character that had existed previously in 1989. And he was brought back for the reign of the Superman's men's story by Roger Stern in an issue of action. comics. So, wait, so everybody who, there were four different Superman books and everybody gets to invent their own guy. And this guy was like, I'll just invent somebody that was already invented. Well, Roger Storton invented Eradicator previously. Oh, so he brought him back. Yeah. Oh, that's okay. Because I'm like, why would you invent somebody and just go, instead of like getting the credit for

inventing this new guy, I'll just bring back somebody from the past and give that guy the credit. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. But if it's the same guy, then that's like, cut this bit out. So, Stern gave Eradicator a personality similar to like the Silver Surfer. So there's

this heavy focus on philosophy and he had an almost like messianic quality to him. He was also, Stern also referred to him as he was the Old Testament Superman because he was very brutal and very violent with criminals regardless of if they had powers or not.

What of the four Superman, he was one of the two that was the most convincing because he looked like Clark. But he also had a lot of Clark's memories. But it was revealed that, you know, he was in fact a ancient Kryptonian weapon that Superman had fought previously. So that when he was trapped in the fortress of solitude after he was. Superman had fought him. Basically, he'd like dispersed his energy out. And when Superman died, Eradicator had recreated himself and took on Superman's appearance and then went out to replace him because it was sort of his role as this ancient Kryptonian weapon to act as a protection. And so the final Superman is Cyborg Superman. And he was created by Dan Juergen in The Avengers

Superman. So he had this really grim appearance, because he was part machine and part man. And like Eradicator, Cyborg Superman possessed a lot of Clark's memories too, but he wasn't brutal or violent. And he was kind of the most convincing because he had like a softness to him that kind of contrasted with like how gruesome he looked. I mean, if you've ever seen a picture of Cyborg Superman like three-fourths of his face is machine. So of the four of the Superman, he was the one who possessed most of Superman's powers, and he also had the ability to control machines. So, like, he could transform, like, one of his robotic arms into, like, a weapon if he needed it to.

So for a period of time, Cyberg Superman was the most convincing because not only did he save the President of the United States from terrorists, but remember how Doomsday has a tendency to coming back? Yes. So Doomsday came back. What? Yep, fully healed from his encounter with Superman, and Cyborg Superman's the one who fought him, and he won.

He ended up being able to take Doomsday and fucking throw him into space. Yeah. Screw that guy. Yeah, just get out of here. So what happened with Cyberk Superman? This is where it gets a little weird, Cyborg Superman. This is where it gets weird, not the four other Superman,

one of whom is a fucking cyborg with a weird face. Yeah, so Cyborg Superman is actually a previous character that had shown up in Superman named Hank Hinshaw. So Hank Hinshaw, his story was sort of DC's take on the Fantastic Four. So like Hank, his wife, and two of his friends, went up into space for Lex Corps and there was an accident with radiation that seemed like it was fatal and it gave Hank

and the other people powers like the Fantastic Four. The problem was is that they were unstable powers. So they were all dying. And as, you know, like, so for example, like the rock monster just stopped breathing, the human torch-esque character essentially just burned into a crisp

his wife who was kind of modeled after the invisible woman just disappeared and Hank his body just dissolved and his consciousness because his powers where he could interact with technology his consciousness went into like computers and so it was thought that he died but in reality his consciousness had just moved on

so he was driven crazy by this shit that happened And this happened as he was finding out that his body was dying. But he had found access to Superman's DNA through the Cadmus computers. And so he was able to create a body that partially replicated Superman's. So of the four Superman, you have a teenage clone who's immature. You have a humble everyday human being. You have an ancient Kryptonian weapon who's handing out Old Testament beatings.

And then you have a crazy homicidal man who has made a body for himself that looks like Superman's. So now we can talk about the reign of the Superman story. Any thoughts on the four characters before we move on, though? They're all very not Superman. Yeah. I mean, if I saw cyborg Superman flying to save me as well, I'd probably be pretty freaked out. He looks like the Terminator. Exactly.

And that was kind of the... It ties into that whole thing of like, this is what the absence of Superman does. You know, like, you have these four replacement characters, and like each of them have a little bit of what makes Superman in them. Like, in Connor Kent, you have that sort of, you know, brash kind of enthusiasm.

And still, you have like a strong morality and a humbleness. In the eradicator, you have like a sense of moral obligation and justice. And in Cyborg Superman, he was a facade of like, he's the one who fooled everyone because he was the one that seemed to be the most believable. So the reign of the Superman story essentially focused on determining if any of these characters were in fact the real Superman, while dealing with the shocking revelation that Cyberg Superman was actually an insane homicidal maniac.

And this came about because of another Superman villain named Mongol, turned up on Earth again. So I'm going to ask if you've ever heard of Mongol, and it's okay if you haven't. Nope. I think I have. I think he might be another character who maybe appeared in one of the C.W. shows. But I can't really remember him. Is he a robot?

No, he is not. Mongol ended up. So Mongols deal is that he is a intergalactant tyrant who he has a whole planet that is his called war world. And it's basically a giant engine and it is powered by pain and suffering and torture. and that's kind of his deal as he goes around conquering planets and adding them to war world. Anyway, he was without war world, and he found his way on Earth, and he had this device that he could use to create a brand new one. And so he struck up a partnership with the cyborg Superman. And so what happens is something that goes on to have a major effect in a lot of other comments.

moving forward. And that is in the attempts to create a new world world to basically turn Earth into that planet, they eradicate Coast City, drop a nuclear bomb on it. And Coast, so it's like millions of people die. And Coast City is the home of Green Lantern, Hald Jordan. And he was in space. So he comes home and everyone, he is known and loved, his entire city is gone. That would later drive him to go crazy, kill the rest of the green lanterns to steal their rings, and become a villain named Parallax, whose basic goal was to recreate and master life through the force of the Green Lantern energy. So he became a big, he became a big bad villain because of this storyline. So it does have like some roots in there.

So anyways, this is after. this has happened, Superboy and Eradicator and Steel team up with Supergirl to try to stop the cyborg Superman and Mongol. Before, they're joined by a weakened Superman wearing a black costume with longer hair. And he's the real deal. So when Eradicator was trying to create a body because he needed a body to put himself into, he stole Superman's body and placed him in an ancient cryptone. device called a healing matrix to heal his wounds so that he could possess his body. Though it seemed like the machine wasn't working. And because of that, he abandoned the body and moved on to another method, but it was just moving very slowly. So as all of this is going on,

funeral for a friend and reign of the Superman stuff, Superman is back at the fortress of solitude, slowly healing and getting his powers back. So with him back, Superman's able to, they defeat Cyberg Superman and Mongol. The eradicator ends up sacrificing himself in the process to help restore Superman's powers completely. And Superman reveals himself to be alive and well and resumes the role. But now he has a trendy 90s mullet. And his costume is the colors are a little darker. Because it's the 90s and he was dark.

Exactly. And half minutes. Yes. So that was kind of that was the end of the death of Superman arc. So that was it's doomsday funeral for a friend and reign of the Superman. So you're saying that if it wasn't for that guy trying to take over Superman's body, Superman would have stayed dead. Yes. That's interesting. Yes. So they would not have known about that kryptonian device that was that was on the Hortress of Solitude.

So kind of an aware-are-are-they-now kind of thing. These are kind of what happens to some of the major players in that story. So Superboy and Steel went on to have their own titles, and Superboy later became a member of Young Justice and the Teen Titans. Eradicator would come back as a hero for a period of time. Cyborg Superman returns frequently as a villain for Superboy. man and green lantern and doomsday comes back from space and like so doomsday becomes that ever present threat in superman's life where he doesn't know where he is but he knows he could come back

at any time and like each encounter is a little deadlier than the last and like you know he knows this thing has already killed him before so it's um it's kind of a scary situation for superman it gives them something to to fear essentially. I think the last death of Superman, or not last of that Superman, but last Doomsday story I read was a, it was a short at the end of a recent issue of action comics were Doomsday's in Hell.

And like how other demons are terrified of this thing that's down there with them. And so like that was a, that was kind of like, just the reminder to the reader like, Hey, he's always around. Don't worry about it. He'll come back. Yep.

So in the wake of death of Superman, Warner Brothers had gotten the rights to produce Superman films. And they were going to write Superman Reborn. And it was going to kind of be like death of Superman with some changes. It was going to be a sequel to Superman 4, The Quest for Peace. I don't know if you've ever watched it. It's a interesting movie if you haven't. Nope.

Yep. Don't worry about it. If you're going to watch any of the Superman movies that Christopher Reeves is in, first and second one, don't bother with three or four. I'm going to watch four. Okay. You get to see Richard Pryor. Is Richard Pryor in the fourth one?

I think he's in the third one. I thought he was the third one. So he's in the third one. So the fourth one is where he fights the radiation. Nuclear man. Yeah, nuclear man. Nuclear man. Yep.

It was a, there was a heavy, like, anti-pollution theme on that one. It was kind of like a long episode of Captain Planet. So anyway, the Superman Reborn script was going to feature a fight between Superman and Doomsday. But Warner Brothers didn't like it because they thought it was too similar to Batman forever. And they ended up rewriting it a bunch and it never came to fruition. This later on became Superman Lives, which would have been directed by Tim Burton. And start Nicholas Cage. Exactly.

Would it start Nicholas Cage. And yeah, that was that was that was that the film prospect on that one. There was an animated directed view video Superman Doomsday film in 2007. It's loosely based on death Superman. It was only 75 minutes long, so it was really condensed. So like the Justice League was not in it. and most of the reign of the Superman storyline was completely removed. The other one that they've done, of course, is Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman Dawn of Justice,

where there's some changes to obviously the Doomsday character. Now, I've not seen Batman v. Superman Dawn of Justice. I know you guys have. So you've seen Doomsday in that. Yep. What can you tell me about Doomsday in it? I think the origins are slightly different because in the movie, I believe it's General Zod's body, which has been experimented on by Lex Luthor, turn it into Doomsday. Like I think they use some sort of, like you were saying, some sort of matrix thing. but rather than using it to heal

well maybe that's what it was I can't remember the specifics but he used something to turn Zod into Doomsday and then there was some kryptonite involved as well so when he was like his like bony things was cutting into Superman

like the the kryptonite was like killing him as well. Yeah, I think that was the thing about Doomsday I kind of liked. When they created this character, they were like, listen, everybody knows, like, kryptonite. Let's not use it.

Because, like, Doomsday does not have, like, any kryptonite in him. I think later versions, they've, like, played around with the idea of, like, having a kryptonite growth in him, but... Not in this one. So anyway, you know, we have the General Zodd, Doomsday, and Batman v. Superman. And then, of course, he gets resurrected in the Justice League movie with involving the flash and water and stuff.

And it's a very different because, like, when Superman's resurrected in that, he's, like, violent and kind of feral at first. Mm-hmm. But I want to contribute a lot of that to Snyder and his just not understanding some of these characters very well. Yeah, that's a safe bet. The other thing is there was in 2018, 2019, there was a two-part animated adaptation of death of Superman and reign of the Superman that was a little more faithful to the storyline. They were less condensed and they did include a lot of moments. They made some changes, of course. So the big reveal about Superboy is that he is half Superman and the other genetic material in him is Lex Luthor.

So he is half Clark and half Luther. And in the animated reign of the Superman cartoon, like, he's a sponsored hero by Lex Corps. So, like, they make that a big, they make that a bit of a thing in that element there. But long story short, that was the death of Superman. It ran for about a year. You know, the objective was to show why Superman mattered and, like, what his absence would mean. personally. I am a bit biased because I'm a big fan of the character,

and a lot of these characters, I do feel like it kind of hit its mark. I will agree, I think, like, the Mongol War World stuff at the end feels like it came out of left field. But a big reason that I think that happened is, so Jerry Ordway was the guy that was kind of over these books, and he finished writing Superman with the Adventure of Superman issue 500.

Because he was just wanting to retire. And a different writer picked it up and finished out the story. And, you know, I think that's where we got Cyborg Superman, obliterating Coast City. So, yeah. Any thoughts or any questions, I suppose? I feel after having heard that synopsis, kind of similar to how I felt to begin with.

And that I'm intrigued about the idea I like the first half. It sounds interesting. The second half, well, not the first half. Let's say the first third. It's been in the three parts. The second part is interesting, you know, bringing all the different Superman stuff.

And then the third part, I just, it kind of loses me. You know, maybe I have to read it myself to really get it. But it's one of those things that was always, like, I've never been. that interested in Superman and this is probably the only real

Superman storyline that I would be interested in picking up because of how interesting and intriguing it seems so I think in that case it's done his job it's got people interested in Superman and you know it gets other people involved

but I don't know I have to you know what I might pick it up and if I do I'll probably talk about it and another episode of the show. But there you go. Yeah, makes sense. John, hear the thoughts.

John, he's your favorite. Cyborg or Steel or Baby Superman or fourth one. Eradicator. I think we might have lost John. Great. Do you want to do your John impression? Hello, I'm back.

Hey. Did you hear any of that? That was a really good impression. That was great, Corey. How did you do? Corey, do it again? say something else. It's me, Corey.

Holy shit, dude. That's incredible. It's just like him. I'll stop asking you to do more your voices now. Is John back? Is John back in the room? Yes. John disappeared out of the room.

We're all recording one room. Yep. Because we're a podcast. We do it together. John have to leave for a second. He'll get some ice cream, but he's back now. So, who's, who? Who's your favorite of the four Superman, the four replacement Superman? I mean, I think the most interesting was probably either the eradicator or cyborg Superman.

Yeah, I would have said cyborg. Yeah. It seems the most interesting, doesn't it? He's a great villain. Yeah. And so, like, we'll get into like a weird little, a weird little journey. to like the new 52. So we can do it quick.

We can do it quick. So when the new 52 launched, a lot of the ideas were like, let's take the characters you know, but we'll take them from unique and different perspectives. So like the bigger ones being like Connor Kent did not exist.

There was a clone of Superboy, but it was like a different clone and the personality was different. I've ever seen the Young Justice cartoon? No. Okay. So the super boy that's in that is more like the New 52 Superman and that he's kind of like stern and stoic and kind of gruff. Whereas like I'm a fan of the pre-New 52 and the version that he's back to being this version now of just like the punk kid.

Because I, you know, I kind of enjoy that character of, you know, what's better than a smart ass, a smart ass that knows you can't hit him. Um, that was a big change for that one and like cyborg Superman had a completely different origin. So he did not have anything to do with like the death of Superman or anything because well, A, death of Superman didn't happen in the new 52 and the new 52 cyber man was closer to the version, well, it was closer to Supergirl, because instead of being Hank Hinshaw, he was

a, he was Supergirl's father. So, yeah. It's one of those things that, like, it was an interesting idea and they muddled with it a little too much, but you know. But see, that's, that's what I don't like about that. All those rebates that the DC do

is that they lose a lot of, that you know, you could create a really, cool, unique character. And then, although that gets a realist. Like you said, the death of Superman doesn't exist now. It didn't happen in this reality.

And like, well, why not? But that was cool and interesting, like fun. Like, I don't like how they reboot stuff all the time. You know?

Yeah. And I think, like, that's when they went with rebirth, and the idea was like, we're going to go back to, like, the base of,

of things and they went back to just having cyworks the room be Hank Hinshaw. Then it worked a lot better. So there was a storyline in action comics very recently. And it was all about the writer was exploring the anti-immigration stuff that's happening in the country right now. So basically the people of Metropolis are there are a group of people who have conditioned them to hate Superman and hate the other Kryptonians because they're aliens and that they're they're you know they've come to earth to lord over them and to take away opportunities from them and like the group was called the blue earth group and yeah so there was this like kind of misdirection that ran with

them where it seemed like it was tied to another Superman villain named Mantalo and then it was like kind of revealed at the end that no it was actually like cyborg superman the whole time so he's a character it still turns up and yeah i don't know i've always just found him to be a really cool villain i think he's got a really unique look um and later on like he became a member of the senestro core uh well before i say that are you do you guys know who the sinestro core is yes they're like the bad green lanterns perfect so yeah that's so cyborks superman becomes a member of the Sinestro Quartz. Like he said, due to him destroying Coast City, he becomes like a Green Lantern villain, too. So it becomes like a kind of a switch villain.

He can go between the Superman world or the Green Lantern world, depending on what you need him for. We will, I think at some point, I'd like to do a new 52 episode with you just to kind of like, hey, here's like, here's this character that you know, and here's the dumb stuff they did with them in the new 52. too, because there's a lot of it. It was such a weird thing because, like, they were just like, all right, we're going to revamp the entire line. And then, like, that's a weird niche thing. Are you guys familiar with, like, prohibition law in America? Yes.

So, you know, like, the reason it failed is because they kept adding all these caveats to it because, like, you know, prohibition got voted in because of, like, rural communities. and then like the farmers realized they couldn't make cider anymore so they made it they made an exception like no cell of alcohol except for cider and then like some of the churches are like well what about communal wine and like no exceptions but cider and communal wine and it's like well what if you know because at a time you would treat certain illness like illnesses with like whiskey like well what about medicinal and they're like all right no every no alcohol except for cider and wine and whiskey and whiskey and if you have a prescription for it. So it kind of became that in the new 52 of like, we're going to reboot and relaunch everything. And then like Grant Morrison is like, well, I'm in the middle of writing like Batman and Robin, and it's been very successful.

And I have this Batman Inc. storyline that I've been like, I just started it. It's like two issues in. And they're like, well, you're Grant Morrison. So everything's going to be rebooted except for major aspects of what you're working on with Batman. We'll reboot some of the other stuff. but none of the stuff you're working on. You're good.

And then Jeff Johns was like, well, I'm in the middle of my opus with Green Lantern, where I've completely redeemed the character and have introduced all of these different lantern cores. Well, you can't reboot me. And they go, that's right. We can't reboot you. So everybody's rebooted except for most of Grant Morrison's stuff on Batman and your Green Lantern stuff.

And so, like, it just felt weirdly inconsistent. And it led to a lot of those problems where, like, you know in the 52 world for example like it was only supposed to be around for five years but Batman had already had four robins so like he had dick grason and then Dick grason grew up to be nightwing he had Jason Todd jason Todd die Jason Todd comes back as red hood he had Tim Drake Tim Drake went by red Robin but wasn't officially a robin for some reason but don't worry don't think too hard about it and oh in that five year period of time I met Razagool's daughter. We had sex and here's Damien. You know, it's like, who's 13? You know, it's like, they had to, like, do some magic to make some of that shit makes sense. And, like, that's sort of the consequence of that relaunch.

Like, crisis was perfect. Like, the original crisis was a perfect relaunch. Because it treated everything brand new. Everything brand new. You know, we got the Frank Miller Batman Year 1. John Byrne was writing Superman from scratch. You had like the Wonder Woman that completely like revitalized the connection to the Greek mythologies. And like, yeah, it kind of sucked.

The Justice League got like fucked over and they couldn't use a lot of characters for it. But, you know, Giffin and Demattis made it work with making it like a comedy book instead. So I'm a big fan of that post-crisis era because I feel like they're really like hitting on all cylinders. And then they fucked it up with Flashpoint and New 52. Which is funny to me because the movie, the Flash. movie that came out not too long ago also was concerning Flashpoint and it also was a muddled mess. But it did have Michael Keaton. It did.

I think someone pointed out like if you, there's like a certain streaming site. If you go to like the Flash movie, the thumbnail is of Batman and the Batwing. So it's like Michael Keaton front and center and then the two Ezra Miller is to either side. And it's like this is them advertising. it's like if you want to watch it for anything else look michael keaton's back what uh shim that is right michael keaton the best batman to be involved with that i mean i'll be honest i've watched the movie and i didn't hate it

it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but in terms of like the rest of the dc movies since like this Snyderverse launched it was one of the more enjoyable ones I thought Was it better or worse and Morbius? Oh, way better than Morbius.

Interesting. Can I tell you my pet peeve with the Flash movie was that realization that the villain was just going to be another version of the Flash? Yeah, that was a bit lame. That is like the biggest trope in like the Marvel movies and the DC movies I can't fucking stand like I I like the

character general Zod and I love Michael Shannon as an actor and like that was like one of the bright points of Man of Steel for me because like A I liked Cavill and I like Michael Shannon and Zod and everything else was rough but like oh the first villain you're going to encounter is just a guy with your powers and it's like oh it's different because like he's a military-minded and you grew up on a farm and you're kind but like yeah it's at the end of the day it's still just a dark version of myself

because he did that with you know Iron Man like most of the Iron Man movies that the villains were just the other guy in a suit and Captain America was they kind of changed the red skull so that he had like super soldier kind of powers yeah yeah it just I don't know it's a weird thing and I guess it's like

to tie it back it's kind of why I liked Doomsday as a villain because, like, he is sort of a dark version of Superman in the sense that, like, he's all powerful, but like he's different enough. Like, he's not witty. He's not going to chat or do one-liners. He doesn't have any ulterior motives, but to kill and destroy things. Me too. There you go. I got it. So any closing thoughts on the death of Superman? Not really. I mean, I think it's kind of fascinating because you're saying at the beginning how, you know, this was such a big deal when it happened and like so many issues were sold and all this.

And it's kind of wild how like, you know, here we are some 30 years. later and it feels like since then every major comic book character has died at some point and come back again and like it's just there's no sort of like impact from that anymore yeah like every time a character dies in the comics now it's just assumed oh yeah they'll be back in like five issues or when they want to relaunch the book or whatever like we we talked to a bit about that as well because we talked about how like there was the age old rule of like nobody in comics stays

dead except for Bucky Jason Todd and Uncle Ben and like since then Jason Todd and Bucky are both back and are very popular characters but like still you know yeah but also what's the point of bringing back Uncle Bad doesn't make any sense

unless he's super Uncle Ben there you go Cyborg Uncle Ben oh there you go I think it would be a really fun idea to do like a like a death episode of like what was a comic book death that like meant something and like how did they return that character to life because we know like they did. You know like I always think of like colossus and sacrificing himself for like the cure to the legacy virus and then he just showed back up on Joss Whedon's amazing X-Men or astonishing X-Men. Yes, he's just alive again. What happened?

Nothing. What? Yeah. Nothing. I remember like and I think sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I've always thought like a lot of people really like the Jason Todd stuff. I didn't care for his resurrection. So like, so Jason Todd gets beaten with a crowbar blown up by the Joker.

And he ends up, his corpse ends up stolen. He's put it in a Lazarus pit, which do you guys know what a Lazarus? is first of all. Yes. Yes. Cool. So he gets put in a Lazarus pit and he's resurrected and like, I don't know. I can't remember if the point was so Talia could like do it as a favor for Bruce or if it was supposed to be like teaching Batman a lesson I don't really know.

But like, I mean, it was an injustice to the means thing because you get this character back who's like, you get the anti-hero Robin, the one who's like bitter that, you know, he's the one who's remembered as the failed Robin because he's the one who died. But like, you know, it's an interesting concept. And I think if you hold that against, like, I think like Ed Brubaker bringing Bucky back as a winter soldier, just because the comparison of like the two characters that people said should never been brought back, I think the winter soldier bring back was or comeback was way better. Yes.

It was very well done. But that's Ed Brubaker, you know? He's good. He's great. It's what makes me so. sad that he got so disillusioned with superhero comics and I'm glad he's doing his own thing but I do Captain America has not been the same since since he stopped writing him yeah it's never quite hit those highs so so yeah I think like a death and resurrection episode would be good because I mean

that's what this story was about is the death and resurrection of Superman and you know before we go John what's your movie count out I think you predicted I was going to be on on 3991 the last time we recorded Yeah, it sounds about right. And now I am on 391. Hey! Congratulations, Corey. You got it right.

And congratulations, John, for watching the many films. Yes. Thank you. What was your last one? A Beverly Hills Copp, Axel F. The new one? Yes. Is it good? It was better than I thought it would be. Oh. I mean, I love the Beverly Oz Cop films, but I haven't seen the new one.

Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's entirely necessary or that it adds much to the series. But yeah, like in terms of seeing Eddie Murphy, like causing chaos around Beverly Hills, you know, takes the right boxes. Is Judge Reinholding it? He is, but he doesn't have a huge role to play in it without. getting into spoilers, but... That's a shame. Yeah. All right.

I think we should go ahead and shut her down, but... You did pretty well. We did pretty well, I think. Another one of these I do want to do, we mentioned it was like Nightfall, which was like the other quintessential 90s, like, D.C. storyline with Batman. You know, that could be a great future episode. And I'm sure that we'll hit on more, because I think this is a fun concept of just like, let's explore a storyline. Yeah. It can all be lists and dick jokes.

Can all be X-Men? Can't all be X-Men. Although there probably isn't X-Men storyline we could do. Oh, absolutely. X-Men's going to turn up in this. We almost made a whole episode without referencing them in anyway. We love the X-Men. But yeah, folks, if you're watching this on YouTube,

check us on Spotify. It's on Spotify. Check us on YouTube. I have a new show called Large Old Cup, which is a stream of consciousness podcast where it's just kind of rambling. And

John, what do you got to promote? Your letterbox? Yeah, follow me on the letterbox at Big John Bowsky, all one word. And Dylan, what you got to promote? I guess you should follow

my YouTube thing because I think by the time this goes up, I should have videos up on my YouTube. It's YouTube.com forward slash ExploityPlays or just Google or search for Explodity Plays. It's me playing video games.

You're going to hate it. I don't care. Just play the videos and put it on mute. Put my views up. I need the views. And subscribe. But you don't have to watch the videos.

Just subscribe. It's easy. Click a button and then you're done. Right? Simple. Yeah. And also subscribe to this. If this is the first time we're listening to the show,

subscribe to Smart Avengers because we're really cool. And we would love to get sponsored by Hello Fresh. Yeah. Or whatever the fuck is sponsored people. Any of those other ones? Yeah. Tank World. I don't know who he sponsors people.

Weird Shadow Legends. Whatever. If you guys want to sponsor us, come on a long time. And we'll take your sponsorship money. No problem. I think that's all I have to advertise. at the moment. Okay.

I haven't, at the time of recording, I have no new videos up on YouTube, but I will have by the time this video goes out sometime in July. Yeah. I look forward to that. If you guys like watching a guy

played Pickman really badly, you're going to love my channel. I'm looking forward to it. Here's a, Corey, you're going to love that show. The Pickman episodes have been so fucking bad. It's been like,

Wall to wall, I couldn't be making worse choices. It's just been fucking awful. It's going to be great TV. Well, everybody, we're going to call it there. We hope you enjoy yourselves and have fun out there. Bye. Goodbye.

Bye-bye. Oh, that's a cold one. He's got the quirky voice.