The Smark Avengers - Vol 3, Ep 3: The Smark Avengers Talk About Robin

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

Everyone knows the origin of Batman's right hand man, the Boy Wonder, Robin! He was a circus performer... no wait... a different circus performer... hold on... I meant to say a street kid trying to steal the wheels off the Batmobile... or did I mean to say a boy genius who could be the greatest detective alive one day... or was it a girl trying to show that she was more than capable enough to prove herself to one of her harshest critics... or was it the son of Batman? Well, okay, maybe there is more than one origin because there is more than one Robin! Wait, there are five?! And they all count as part of the same continuity?! Join Corey, Dylan, and Jon as they discuss all the main continuity characters who have dawned the "R", the downsides of working with Batman, and why dead parents seems to be part of the recruitment process.

All right. Just so you know, you guys are. Yep. You're being recorded. Well, if what did they hear all that should be talking about, DiGarcia. I didn't give my permission to be recorded. What's going on?

Surprise. Yeah, this is the new bit. I did keep, I think I did keep in the talk about the emotional support clown on the last episode, by the way. I kept that in. I forgot I forgot about that. Hi, everyone.

My name's Corey. And with me, as always, are Dylan and John. We are the Smart Avengers. And the last few episodes, we've had, we've talked about the movie side of things. So we're not going to talk about movies today, though, guys.

Because you guys had some other commitments. We were going to, instead kind of talk about a topic that I am well versed on and more of to kind of give you guys some insight. So as it is probably well documented, I've always been a DC comics person of the group. You guys have been leaning a little more

towards Marvel. And through some conversations that we've had, I revealed that there were five Robbins in DC's main continuity. And I think you got kind of caught you off guard. Yeah, that's a lot of Robbins.

Yeah, I was aware of. them, but I just, I still can't quite get my head around how they all fit together and can still all be Robbins. That was an issue that happened with DC's new 52, and that'll definitely come up as we as we get into it. But it's really the, the episode that we're going to be using today. Our topic is going to be the DC Comics character Robin, aka the boy wonder, aka one half of the dynamic duo, aka Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Damien Wayne, and the main continuity, Carrie Kelly, Matt McGuinness. There's a robot in one of the else worlds. Robot Robin. There's a lot of robins out there. Which one of the Robbins has a magic hand?

Now, I had to pause and think, has there been a Robin with a magic hand? I had to think. So we're basically just going to talk about the history of the Robin identity and some uses it's had over the years. And we have to go all the way back to 1940 to talk about Robin because that's when Dick Grayson, the first Robin, the most famous Robin, debuted in Detective Comics number 38 in April, 1940. Basically, I watched a couple of documentaries on the history of comics. I read Grant Morrison's book Super huge super uh what's it called Super gods

by Grant Morrison. Yes. And in it Super Gods acts as sort of like Grant's philosophical journey through like what it means to be alive as well as a comic's history book. So it's dual purposes. But Dick Grayson was created to attract younger readers to the comics in the 1940s. So the idea is that most people who are reading comics for kids.

let's give the kids a avatar character that they can like vicariously live through. So that's how Robin came to be. I think everybody is familiar with Robin, with Dick Grayson's backstory. Acrobat, parents were killed by a mob figure who sabotaged the trapeze act and they fell to their death. Bruce Wayne, who was in the audience, saw someone who was going through the same kind of trauma. he was made him a war you know took him in made him award and uh trained him to fight crime with him of course that checks out right yeah that's exactly what you do with like a eight year old kid yeah after his parents have just been murdered right in front of him yeah she's right in front

of his eyes same as they're having to bruce bruce was like well this has worked out so well for me so far yeah i'm fine yeah this has worked out really well so robin was created by uh the same creative team created Batman, Bob Kane and Bill Finger, which is great that it by the way, this is a small side. It did great that Bill Finger is finally getting credit after so many fucking years of Bob Kane hogging all that. So many years after his death. Yeah.

For ages, you've never heard of him. Yeah. And he was the guy who created the look because if Bob Kane, that's the thing. Bob Kane wrote Batman, Bill Finger designed the look. Because if it wasn't, Batman would have just been a guy. like a suit with bat wings like a backpack it was not a good look well that was kind of like the that was kind of like the old like stan lee stuff or like stanley got a lot of credit for a lot of the characters and like he wasn't the only one that marvel you know yeah they had they had artists

they had other people you know but um so the reason that bat me that robin came about being was to attract readership and also was to give Batman someone to talk to because the creative team were just tired of Batman only having internal monologue. Yeah, they're like, we can't have him talking to the old butler again. Exactly. It's getting boring. He doesn't have anything to. Look, he can't relate to an old man.

Maybe he could relate to a young boy. Yes. That's less creepy. So Robin, the name Robin came about from Robin Hood. and the costume design was inspired by an illustration by an artist named NC Wythe, who in 1917 had drawn some pictures of Robin Hood. If you look them up, you'll see some similarities there. Kind of like the red tunic shirt, for example.

That's where that look came from. So like you said, Dick Grayson is the most famous Robin. He founded the Teen Titans. But his time as Robin was very, very long time. He was Robin from 1940 until like 1982. So that's 40 years of the boy wonder, 40 years of gradually aging. Like that was another thing is there was a period of time during the Bronze Age, which was like the 70s where they were like doing more like,

let's talk about the hippies and drugs, where he was starting to be credited as Robin the Teen Wonder because they were acknowledging that he was getting older, which I think was nice of them to do. The character of Dick Gray's, and his Robin was really kind of bland for a lot of that time because the golden age and Silver Age were not really known for characterization. Robin, uh, finally growing up on his own, decided that he was done being Robin.

He was done being Bruce Wayne's sidekick. It was time for him to strike out on his own, be his own man. And he, um, discarded the costume and took on the name Nightwing. And yeah. So as Nightwing, they were able to really touch on more mature topics with him in Titans. I think we had like, he had a very sexual relationship with Starfire, for example. I feel like they probably would have done if he was in the Robin costume he'd been wearing since the 1940s. Depends, man.

If he was on the Batman TV show, from what I've heard that they got into with wearing the costumes. Yeah. might have been okay so do you guys know the origin of the nightwing name I assume I assume it was just some kind of like obvious play on like the

Batman thing because Batman like kind of hides in the shadows at night and bats have wings Nightwing So in continuity Nightwing is a name he picked up from Superman because in cryptonian

folklore there were these two two tall-tailed kind of figures named Nightwing and Flamebird. And because Dick Grayson was friends with Superman through his partnership with Batman, he actually has a pretty inc in continuity, a very close friendship with Superman still to this day. And that's where he got the name Nightwing from. So he wanted to be his own person. Why wouldn't he be Flamebird? There have been there have been Flamebirds as well in continuity.

That's a cool, last name. cool last name. It's a terrible name. It's a terrible name. Flamebird? I'd rather be Flamebird than Nightwing. I don't know. Nightwing like has...

Okay, guys. Guys, in the comments, in the comments, let's have a vote. Everybody listen to the show in the comments of YouTube or wherever you listen to this. Let me see. What do you want? Would you rather be called Darkwing? Not Darkwing. That's a whole other show.

Night, Darking or Flambird. Okay. I mean, if you're going to be called flamebird, though, why wouldn't you just be called Phoenix? Because that's already trademarked. Yeah, fair enough. Some other company got there first. What's close to Phoenix? I know, a big flainy bird.

You know, that's pretty cool. It reminds me of Maltrez, the Pokemon, but like a lot of the stuff in my life just reminds me a book one. So I guess that's why I would go for flambard, you know. Also, it sounds friendlier. Hey guys, I'm Flainbird. You know, I'm just chilling. What's up, guys? You want to hang out?

Nightwing's all like, I'm Nightwing. Nightwing sounds like it really is just like right beside Batman in terms of like, the character. You know what I mean? Like you know what kind of guy you're getting with Batman? You know what kind of guy you're getting with Nightwing? I feel like with Flamberg, you're like, I don't know what you're getting. You know what I mean?

There's a bit of, there's a bit of like, is it going to be like a party guy or he beat the fuck out of me. You don't know. So, um, so Dick Grayson went to basically he graduated from high school. He went to college, decided to stop being Robin and became nightwing on his own in San Francisco as the leader of the team Titans. Uh, there's some great old nightwing costumes out there. Disco wing was the nickname for a while too because that first nightwing costume big old collar plunging neckline. Hang on now. Disco wing I could deal with. Disco wing. Okay. With Disco Wing or Flambard, I'm like, Disco Wing's pretty good. So DC Comics were not terribly happy with the idea of removing Robin from Batman, because

I was at that point, like 40 years of history. So they were like, we'll just make another Robin. So that's where we get Jason Todd. Now, like I said, everybody knows Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson was Robin in the Batman television series. That was in the 60s. he was the Robin that was in the animated series. It was in the 90s.

He was Robin in the movies from the 90s as well. Do you guys know Jason Todd, and are you familiar with Jason Todd? I think so. I'm pretty sure I know which Robin that is. It's the Robin that got killed by the Joker. Bingo, that's what I was going to say. And I believe didn't he, not to step on your, like, toes here, but like, I think didn't he get introduced to Batman by like stealing the

wheels off the Batmobile or something like that? You are half right. So Jason Todd was introduced into Batman in 1983. Jason Todd was the son of circus acrobats who were murdered by a criminal, this time for a crock, and was then adopted by Bruce Wayne. He had red hair, was always cheerful, and he wore his. his own circus costume until Dick Grayson gave him a robin suit of his own. At that point,

he started to dye his hair black. Do you think the adoption agency were like, Hey, Bruce, we in, where are you getting only... I'm not doing this. Where you get only circus kids from?

Like, well, what's going on here? What do you do it? And like, no, I just, there's nothing weird about adopting circus kids.

So what's your problem? So, so John, your answer is also correct. Because of a little thing. called Crisis on Infinite Earths. We've talked a little bit about crisis on infinite Earths before. So here's a really small and quick DC Comics lesson.

DC has always loved else worlds. They've always loved having different continuities and stuff that made things different. And at this time in the 1980s and 70s and whatnot, there were two universes that were constantly getting new stories. One was our regular Earth and the other was Earth 2. So on Earth 2, Batman had retired. and Robin had assumed the main role of the superhero in Gotham. Look up Earth 2 Robin and you'll see some fucking fascinating costumes.

My favorite is it's basically just the Batman costume, but in the middle of the bat symbol on his chest is the Robin R in the middle of it because he was still Robin. Yeah, yeah. He's still Robin. That's like the second image. Yeah, he's still Robin, but he's wearing the Batman costume. Sands the mask.

So on Crisis and Earth, basically this was DC trying to streamline all of their continuity and get one timeline again. So when they did that, Batman was virtually untouched, except they changed Jason Todd's character drastically. So as John said, Jason Todd was the son of a drug addict and a low-level thug for hire. and he was introduced in Batman by trying to steal the tires off the Batmobile. So I really like it with that, right? I really like the idea that somebody saw the Batmobile and was like, I'm going to steal those tires because I'm pretty sure I can sell them on to somebody. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure there's another car right there that has tires identical to the Batmobile. So, so Batman seemingly was impressed with Jason Todd's tenacity. and after realizing Can we just stop that really quick? Batman's somebody's trying to steal from him and he's like that's the thief I can respect

like a teenage boy, a 12, 13 year old boy or whatever. It's always teenage boys of Batman though not that part of it. But like he fights thieves every fucking day and he sees one stealing from him and he's like, all right, you're cool. He's got balls. Yeah, I like that.

Fair enough. All the other guys, guys to beat me up, no class. But you, I like you. What age you? 13, get in the car. Perfect. Get in. Perfect. Hop in. So, uh, so anyway, Jason Todd became Robin shortly after that, after basically he was discovered that his, the home for wayward boys that he was in was corrupt and whatnot. Uh, he got adopted by Bruce, offered the position of Robin. And, um, Jason's personality, So before crisis, Jason was like always cheerful, always happy. Post crisis, Jason had an anger problem.

He was the Robin that was a bit of a brawler, didn't really like dealing with criminals as humanely as Batman did. There was a storyline where it's implied that he may have pushed a rapist off the top of a building. So yeah, he was he was robin with issues. coincidentally enough, not very popular with readers either. So in 1988, five years after his introduction, very famously,

DC Comics did a publicity stunt where they put out 2-1-900 numbers, and they said for this period of time, call this number here, and Jason Todd will live. Call this number here, and Jason Todd will die. So in story,

and this is where people like lose stuff on because like you'll find it a lot of times in comic history when stuff gets adapted to like movies and video games and stuff they will pick and choose what parts they want to take. So this story is told

in Arkham Knight the video game and it's told in a direct to DVD animated movie Batman under the Red Hood but they always leave out this part Joker becomes like a figurehead

in a country in the Middle East somehow. Oh, I remember this. Yes, because you can find him in like some very... Yes, yes. I think contact. Probably Condac. But anyway, so Jason Todd finds out that his mom

who he had thought was dead was in fact alive and that she was being held by the Joker. He defied Batman's orders to go find her and it was really an ambush that his mother was kind of working for the Joker. Yeah. Joker then proceeds to mercilessly beat him with a crowbar

and leaves him to die in this building that's going to explode. And at that point, at that point, readers had the option of calling into one of these 1,900 numbers to save Jason Todd or let him die.

Can I just say real quick, before you reveal the the results of that that poll that I really like that angle I really fucking love the idea

of writing a story and then going I couldn't be bothered to write an ending so you pick what do you think should happen and then I'll just

I'll just go with that you know like I really I feel like that's an underutilized thing like people should do that way more often that would be a lot of fun, wouldn't it? You know what you mean?

Yeah. Should Spider-Man die? You get the vote, you know? Pretty much. So these two 1-900 numbers went out, and readers voted yes. They wanted Jason Todd to die. Do you know what the percentages were? It was 5,343 votes yes to 5,271 votes, no.

It was very narrow, apparently. And Dini O'Neill, who is one of my favorite comic creators just passed away very recently a couple years ago. Denny O'Neill has gone on the record multiple times saying he hated this publicity stunt and that he always heard

that it was a man in California who had rigged his computer to auto-dial the yes number multiple times because apparently they got like 60-some votes within like a short amount of time. So regardless, the decision was made. Jason Todd got blown up in this warehouse

and a very famous storyline called A Death in the Family, in which Batman is seen holding the remains of Jason Todd and screaming up at the sky. And coincidentally, kind of worked out because in 1989, Tim Burton's Batman movie came out, and there was no mention nor existence of Robin in it. So DC did not have to worry about the promoting aspect of that so much. For a period of time, Jason Todd was dead.

dead. To the point that it was always like, there was always a saying that the three deaths in comics that would always stick around were Uncle Ben, Jason Todd, and Bucky Barnes. And for those of us in the year 2024, we know how well that worked out. Uh-oh. Yep. So Jason Todd was, was resurrected later in life as the Red Hood, an identity the Joker used before he was turned to the Joker. After Jason Todd died, Batman did not have a Robin for a period of time. And at that point in the comics,

Batman was depicted as a little more violent, a little more grim, a little more hopeless. And that would lead to the third Robin, Tim Drake, making his appearance in the early 1990s, late 1980s. In fact, that was part of his character motivation was that Tim Drake realized that Batman needs a Robin.

So a lot of the writing that happened with the Tim Drake character, they were very conscientious about. They did not want to repeat Jason Todd that the fan base disliked. So Tim was around for a period of time before he was. ever became Robin. He was introduced as this really brilliant detective who he was a little kid who was really good intuition, very intelligent, who figured out that Dick Grayson used to be Robin because of a circus act stunt that Dick Grayson did that he saw live. And Nightwing had repeated the same stunt and the only person who could have done it was Dick Grayson. So he figured out who Batman was by figuring out who Dick Grayson was.

why he's how Batman was by association so he figured out that Dick Grayson was Robin because only Dick Grayson could have accomplished this particular aerial stunt and he saw Robin

do it and knew that Dick Grayson had been adopted by Batman. Batman had the funding necessary to engage in a war on crime and he also had the same build and address

yes same address male is a big clue. That was a big one. The tip of the law. Yeah. So, so that was really like Tim Drake was introduced in that way. He was this kid who was able to figure out who Batman was and approached Dick Grayson and said, hey, you need to go back to being Robin because Batman needs a Robin because he's, he's getting more violent. He's going to start making mistakes and people are going to get hurt. And Dick Grayson was like, uh, no, thank you. I'm very comfortable being nightwing and being on my own and not being around. Bruce all the damn time anymore. He's like, fuck you, kid. He was nicer about it, but yeah, essentially. Where did you come from? Why are you going to try to steal the Batman Beals wheels, all right?

Yeah, that's how you get in. So eventually, you know, Tim ends up helping, you know, save the day at some point. And Alfred and Dick Grayson have to talk Bruce Wayne into giving Tim a shot at being Robin. So Tim actually has to undergo like a lot of training. He gets sent on like kind of a, kind of a world tour of having to visit all of Bruce Wayne's former mentors and learn how to basically be a vigilante. And at the same time, he was given a lot of these really strict instructions.

Like he was not allowed to go on patrol with him. He was not allowed to engage in criminals on his. own. He was there to act as reconnaissance and as an eye in the sky more often than not. So DC was really trying this different approach with Tim Drake at first to warm fans up to him gradually. Because if it didn't work, they still could just say, well, you know, he, you know, you don't, we don't want you to be Robin. You know, thanks for all the help, but, you know, go be a normal kid. That's a good idea. So they were really gradual with it. And eventually fans did really warm up to to Tim Drake and by the time he did become Robin, he had had three mini series on his own and then he became the first Robin to have an ongoing comic.

So Tim's period of Robin was very long in comparison to Jason Todd. Jason Todd was only Robin for five years. It was not nearly as long as Dick Grayson because Dick was the first, but Tim was Robin from the late 80s, early 90s up until the beginning of the 2010s. If I may, bring it back around to our usual title of the Smart Avengers. By tying into wrestling someone, the fact that you brought up Tim Drake, they introduced them first. They got you used to the character. They built him up slowly, slowly. You got used to the character.

And then they made him the Robin character. That's what you do in pro wrestling. You get a guy. You build him up. Make him a big deal. Don't overdo it, but get the people used to him. And then once they're on his side, hit him in the big stuff. Yeah.

You know what you mean? That's like proper storylines. So another thing that they did to really set Tim apart was that Tim wasn't an orphan. Tim had a dad and he had a mom. But Papa tried to adopt him anyway. Well, that happens later. So Tim had parents and that was part of Tim's character arc was that Tim was having to do all of this stuff whilst also being a normal teenager with his own home and his own mom and dad.

eventually his parents are like kidnapped and as a result of it his mother ends up dying and his father ends up getting put into a coma and placed on a ventilator so you still have you you have this new dynamic with a robin who like this is robin who doesn't live in the manner he lives with his parents he has to take care of a sick dad he's kind of going through some of that trauma because he lost his mother but it's it's a different experience and like that was really the first thing that happened with him that's separated him from the others because there was no the concept of being like a teenager in writing in comics was not a thing in the golden age and in the silver age any mention of like sex and whatnot was completely out the window too because of the the comics code so jason was only a side character in batman comics he'd ever got a ton of development outside of like jason was he was complicated and he had anger problems and he was rebellious With Tim, they really got to explore things like the teenage experience because it was the 19 late 80s and early 90s.

And they could do things of like you have a teenage boy. He has crushes. He's going to go on like dates. He ends up getting a girlfriend very early in the Robin run. But yeah, another thing that Tim's run as Robin did is it gave us the modern day Robin look. So every depiction of Robin, not the 1960s Robin, but like the Robin from the animated series, that's Tim's costume. Tim was the first person who had the black,

the black on the outside yellow on the inside cape, the full leg tights, the more armored look. That was Tim's look. Tim had two endings as Robin with Bruce and their relationship was so strained that he resigned to being Robin. He just quit. Because some stuff that was going on is there was a period of time where

Tim was just having a rough go of it. A lot of his friends were getting killed. and his dad was killed in a series called Identity Crisis by Brad Meltzer, I believe. And so Tim was now an orphan, just like all the other Robbins. Hello, Batman's like Robin his hands together. Like, finally. Finally. So Tim resigned and Batman needed a new Robin.

And this time, he got Stephanie Brown, who Robin fans knew a source. spoiler who was Tim's girlfriend at one point. So instead of the boy wonder, we had the girl wonder. And Stephanie, her run is Robin. A lot of people,

a lot of her fans will say was incredibly cruel. Because she was a very popular character, but part of what Stephanie Brown's character was. So quick backstory, her father was a low level villain called the Clue Master. I love it.

Every time you tell me about any like B level DC character, it's always something like the Clee master or Mr. villain. It's always like something really fucking stupid. So Stephanie was very self-trained. And like that was part of like her and Tim's relationship is that she was this kind of vigilante trying to go on her own. and he was kind of the prodigy.

Because that was like the thing they really established with Tim is that while Tim was not as good an acrobat as Dick Grayson or as good a fighter as Jason Todd, Tim was the heir apparent to the role of the greatest detective. Tim was always very intelligent. So his relationship with Stephanie was sort of based off of their mutual high intelligences, but he had resources that she didn't. So a lot of people are very upset with how she was treated as Robin because Bruce, was very hard on her and ended up firing her as Robin not long after she assumed the role. And that led into a storyline, I believe, called Gang War in which to earn Batman's trust and to show that she was capable, she accidentally kicked off a massive gang war in the streets of Gotham, which led to her being kidnapped and tortured to death by a criminal named Black Mask.

Stephanie Brown died and Tim Drake took on the role of being Robin again. How long was she Robin for? I don't even think it was a year. Because whenever you were telling me about the different Robbins, I'm like, Stephanie Brown is the one I hadn't heard of. And then evidently, I can see why.

Yeah, she didn't have a long run. And that's why a lot of people who are big Stephanie Brown fans say that it was kind of cruel. It was, she was kind of used to illustrate that not anyone could just be Robin. Like it takes a certain level of being able to put up with Bruce Wayne. And it's just a coincidence that the one that couldn't handle being Robin was a woman. Yeah, yes. What a coincidence. Right.

Later on they put her in a fridge. So anyway, Tim Drake, he ends up taking on the role of Robin again. and he stays Robin until about 2010, if memory serves, where Bruce Wayne has been killed by Darkside, and the Bat family gets shaken up. So Dick Grayson assumes the role of Batman, and his first order of business is to take the role of Robin and hand it to Bruce Wayne's son, Damien.

And then we have Damien Wayne as Robin the boy Wonder. Wait, but Dick Grayson is Batman's son. He is his ward, not technically his son. He adopted him. He adopted him, I think, technically later on, but he was a ward of the state. Okay. Some legal synonygons by the billionaire right here. Yeah, exactly.

That was a tax break. Yep. So anyway, yes. Damien Wayne becomes Robin. Tim takes on the identity of Red Robin, which is, that's complicated to get into. And we get the new dynamic duo of Batman and Robin. This time, you have a cheerful, funny Batman

and a vicious, kind of cruel, kind of murderous Robin. Because Damien... I like the way you said kind of murderous. Kind of murderous. Like it depends on the day. yeah well Damien is the grandson of Razal Ghul

one of Batman's greatest enemies his mother is Talia who is one of Batman's many on again off again love interests so and I say kind of because Damien's first appearance in Batman he cuts off a D level villain's head oh you have to tell me what his name is

I believe it was just the ghost oh come on I think his costume was a sheet over his head you couldn't have been like ghost ghost butler or something you know well we've talked about gentleman ghost before but that's like an old flash villain we did talk about gentleman ghost go back and listen to

whatever one of the old episodes we definitely talked about gentleman ghost yeah I feel like we've talked about gentleman ghost yeah I think that was one of the ones we uploaded right might have been one of the really old ones it has to be it has to be one of the really old ones yeah but anyway so Damien becomes Robin

and Damien proceeds to stay Robin for a very long time past the point of where it's revealed that Batman did not die. He was simply transported to the past. And once he came back and Dick Grayson went back to being Nightwing, he kept Damien on as his Robin. So we had a father, son, Batman and Robin, which I believe the upcoming James Gunn movie is going to feature.

Is the Batman and Robin, that is father and son duo. So Damien is one of the is. the present day Robin in DC continuity. Damien is the youngest so far. He's 13 years old. And by youngest, I just mean I think when Dick Grayson started being Robin, he was eight. But you know, we have a 13 year old Damian Wayne. He's had his own solo series, I think, on two separate occasions. He was a member of the Teen Titans and led them for a period of time. and he also was killed by

his mother went mad and made a clone of him and the clone killed him. That's disappointing. Yes, but he, you know, death in DC Comics doesn't really stick very long. So Damien is right back and he's doing, he's doing fine. He's the current Robin in the Batman Robin comic book series. Imagine you got killed by you.

Yeah, right? Like, I, just at you that's like genetically modified to be older and bigger and stronger. Oh, right. You're like, what the, that's this is, I would be, I would be really bummed about that. Like, really? I couldn't get killed. In fact, it was this mother that did it. One of the other robins got killed by the Joker, like the big fucking guy.

And I get killed by me. So we, we touched a little bit on all of them. All of the robins, all five of the robins. These are the five main continuity robins. All five of them have been killed, quote unquote, at least once. At least. Yes. So the new 52 continuity, and we'll get into this.

All right. Because earlier, you mentioned how could there have been this many Robbins? Yeah. Because in the world of comic books, Batman is like in his 30s. He's as old as we're as old as Batman. Technically,

if you think about it. We're basically Batman. We're basically Batman. Yeah. So how did Batman have five Robbins from the time he started Batman, which is implied. in his early 20s to now. Because that's like...

All of them little teenage we have said he's following. Yeah, 10, 15 years old, right? 10, 15 years. So, D.C., who had just done Crisis on Infinite Earths in the 1980s, said, uh-oh, we got to do it again. And that gave, that was actually... Fuck, we got to do it again. Oh, shit. And that's not even the first time they did it.

They had to do it like two other times. when you say had to had to had to they fucked up the continuity so many times it made things complicated and they killed off characters

that in retrospect they're like kind of wish we hadn't done that yeah well that's their problem do you remember the Aquaman episode that we didn't end up putting out because the audio got fucked up and I mentioned like

all of the various things that happened to Aquaman like he got his hand eaten by piranas that he couldn't control and had to replace it with a harpoon hand, and then he got a water hand given to him by the lady of the lake. We remember Akramat's magic hands very well. But, but yeah.

So that's the kind of stuff that happened that made them go, we have made this hard to follow. We need to start over with a blank slate. Enter Flashpoint, which gave us the new 52. So the new 52, one of its big credos, was that new 52, this is like 2012, 13, if I'm not mistaken. The new 52, one of the credos was we're going to simplify the DC universe. We're going to only do, I think it was 52 ongoing books instead of like they had way more than that.

And streamline continuity. So in the new 52 world, this is how all five Robbins played out. He had Dick Grayson and then Dick Grayson wanted to be Nightwing. He had Jason Todd, but then Jason Todd got killed. and then he got and then he came back and was red hood and then he knew tim drake and tim drake helped him out but tim drake never became robin tim drake then decided to become red robin and he was never considered a robin by batman stephan brown didn't fucking exist and damien he had met talia algool early in life did did did the thing the procreation the sex

The business. The business. Fucking. If we're going to be adults about it. If you want to be real crude about it. Yeah. If I'll be real uncouth about it,

if I'll be real uncouth about it, I'll just say fucking. Keep it light. We don't have to start talking about that stuff on this show. Raw dogder and came deep inside of her. Jesus Christ.

All right, well, we're going to have to not check to all ages function on this one. None of the Robbins can list to this. You're not old. No, no. Three, three of, no, four of the five can technically. Four of the five can. Yeah, one of them's dead, right? You actually, all of them are alive right now.

Yeah, we'll get to it. But anyway, so he had Damien and then Damien, I think they may have said, like, was genetically aged up. So that he was old enough to become Robin. so he had two he had two he had three robins technically one who was kind of a robin and one that just didn't exist that was how they got around the four and again dylan as you said the one that didn't exist the girl the woman what about that got to be coincidence again the second time a coincidence right so all of the robins currently still alive in continuity uh we have dick grace in his nightwing Jason Todd is the Red Hood. Tim Drake got a little weird because he took the name Robin back when

Brian Michael Bendis was writing Young Justice. And then he tried to come up with a new identity for Tim Drake called just calling him Drake in which he had like a brown costume. And then that was really unpopular with readers.

So they reverted him back to Robin like three issues later. And Stephanie Brown went from spoiler to bat girl and I think she's still considered back girl right now but she's one of three back girls and Damien

is still Robin but his Robin outfit is more black and gray so we have five robins two of them still go by Robin the other three have established their own identities but one of those identities is one of three back girls makes sense like I said DC Comics really likes to have their cake and eat it too

because all of that, all of the history and all of the death but not death and rebirths and relaunches and crises and whatnot, the one constant thing is that every Robin has a very strong fan base. It's kind of like to throw something out there that you guys are familiar with because of the UK and how big of a thing it is over there. It's like Doctor Who. Everybody has a favorite Robin. Right.

And you have your Robin. So me, I was a kid in 1987. I started reading comics in the early 90s. Tim Drake was my Robin. So that's the one I've always identified with and always the one I enjoyed. Even though Dick Grayson was the Robin on the TV show and the cartoon and in video games and the movie, my Robin was still Tim Drake. So each of the Robbins have a very, very strong fan base. Even Stephanie, who was only Robin for a cup of coffee.

That's interesting. Yes. I think. It's very loyal, very loyal fan bases. So a couple years ago, DC did this thing where they called it a round robin challenge. So what they did is they went to, I think, 32 different writers and artists. And they said, give us an elevator pitch on a miniseries you want to do. And we'll put it up for a vote.

So they made like a tournament bracket for an you, and all you got was. the artist, the writer, and a two, three sentence pitch as to what that they were going to put together if they won the tournament. And one of those books was just titled Robbins. And it was a mini series that was going to be a team up between the five Robbins that was going to explore their relationship with one another, as well as solve a large mystery that was going on. It has to do with the identity of Robin. and they went up against people who wanted to like make suicide squad books or John Constantine books or Green Lantern books or Hawkman books or like Superman books and they had like all these different artists and creators and because Robin is such a popular character with five very strong fan bases that love this character to death they won the first tournament and so they they put out this Robin comic and I read all five issues of it. it was pretty good.

But like that was, that's kind of the point of that is that a book that was up against like film properties like suicide squad, Robin won in a fucking landslide from I understand. Like it was not close at all when it came to the votes. Like every bracket that Robin, the Robin's book was in one single handedly. So like I said, these characters are incredibly popular.

And they get featured all the time. And that's why they, and that's probably why they have opted just to, have all five of them around constantly doing something, constantly involved in something. That's why they can't take Tim Drake's name off of Robin. Like he's back to being Robin again, even though Damien Wayne's also Robin. But that's, again, though, that's kind of what you want to aim for. Like if, like you said, there's five Robbins.

Some of them have moved on. Some of them have kind of changed. But if there's one or two that, like, people really want to see as Robin, lean into that. Like, work with those guys. Like, you know, I. totally get that. Why not make Tim Drake like some kind of Robin, you know? That's what people want.

Okay, go for it. Or be in the death of the crowbar. So a couple of years ago, they put out this video game called Batman Ark of Knights or Gotham Knights, actually. And the whole premise of that is Batman's dead. The sidekicks have to take

his place. And that game featured four playable characters, which were three of the five Robbins to kind of go into how successful those characters are and how much they appeal to various different people and it was you know

Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake there was a woman, but it was Barbara Gordon and not Stephanie. No love for Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Kane as the other back girls. But that game also kind of explored the whole family dynamic their own complicated relationships

with Bruce Wayne and their complicated relationships with one another. And I really think it's like the family aspect of the Robbins that appeal to a lot of the readers. We were kind of talking a little bit about it that there are certain characters that appeal to like certain demographics and comic books. And the young adults and kind of the were LGBTQA crowd, they've always really gravitated towards Robbins that I've noticed over the years. So I've talked a lot about the very very. various robins out there. Do you guys have any thoughts? I feel like more of the robins

should have been bludged into death by the Joker. Is that a controversial statement to put out there? I don't think so. Actually, like, you know, like, you know, that you said there were five different robins

and the first, I'm like, well, how is it going to work? I'm like, you did explain it in a pretty succinct manner. I think part of it is that problem I have with D.C. were like every so often they did like reboot everything like it's fuck whatever just happened we're gonna do it again you know which I I that's part of the thing I don't like about DC but I think you explain it all like really well

yeah thank you you know this is like a really good like beginner's guide to rob it yeah it's because I mean I'll tell you like as a kid before I was starting to read comics like I told you where I was originally from in Southern West Virginia, we did not have a comic book store. You could get comics from like the grocery store or CVS, but there were only ever going to be maybe five or six different comics. And for the most part, I was relying on yard sales where people would just be like, here is my entire comic book collection for $5, you know.

So I remember watching Batman the Animates series and watching a VHS cassette that we recorded from the family channel of episodes of the 1960s Batman getting this comic book that coincidentally is um was the first appearance of the suicide squad that like with like the very famous one like Captain Boomerang and stuff. But in it it featured Batman talking to who I thought was Dick Grayson and then he kept calling him Jason. I was like, who the fuck is Jason? Why does he keep like calling Dick Grayson Jason? Are you pretty? not saying writing it correctly. Are you an idiot?

Are you writing it wrong? Yeah. But it was a very jarring experience to be this little kid and you just see Dick Grayson's Robin. Dick Grayson's Robin. And then you're just like, this is Jason. Who the fuck is Jason? Well, but that's kind of like the way

I've told this story on the show before. But like whenever I was watching Spider-Man, like you know the story of Spider-Man, it's Peter Parker. He's Peter Parker. Everybody knows it's Peter Parker, Spider-Man. So when I got the chance to read some of the comics in the 90s, I picked up a comic And it's like, Ben Riley, you're Spider-Man.

I'm like, who? What the fuck? And then you read a little bit more. And then you see Peter Parker talking to Ben Riley. And he goes, yep, as a recap, remember that you were Spider-Man all along. And I'm like, what? So yeah, that's kind of all that I really want to say about the Robbins.

Like I said, it's sort of like the Eternals problem, where there are five characters that all have very lengthy backstories and stuff they've been doing and are very more and very nuanced and they have their really strong vocal fan bases but like I don't want to go into all of that detail because that would be a very long episode mainly the point was to introduce the both of you who are both Marvel guys to this notion of a kid sidekicks because that was always more of a DC thing than a Marvel thing and B, just kind of the timeline of this is how Batman had so many fucking sidekicks and adopted kids. So really, do you have any, like, what thoughts do you have after kind of getting the run through of the Robin mantle and the various people who've held it? Well, I think, like I said, I think you did a pretty good job of running through all of the Robbins because whenever you told me there were five Robbins, I guess, I, I when you said the name to them I was like oh I know some of these

God bless her Stephanie Brown I did not know about and I'm sorry about that I just didn't know you know but it sounds like it's not your fault that you don't know about her right it was a writer's fault for

continually hitting woman yeah which I think is unfair but that's the whole other show you know but yeah I mean that's like So the general consensus about Stephanie's time as Robin is that she was kind of just used to illustrate the idea that not anyone could be Robin. And I think the character is in character.

I think that was part of the Robin's mini series I was telling you about. It was something she brought up in a dress that she felt like she was intentionally put in a position to fail by Bruce. Okay. Well, that's, you know, that's spared off too. Yeah, I feel like it's a little retrospective, like, the writers apologizing for the past writers. Still not giving them a free pass for that, but at the same time, you know, it's good to get a little brief history of Robin. And, you know, we know I had heard of some of these, a lot of the guy, I heard of a lot of those guys and knew some of the story, but not all of it. That's the problem with comics.

As you kind of talk to it, it's very hard for people who aren't. into comics to get into comics because you always find that you're diving in at absolutely the wrong time. And especially with DC, I always find DC quite daunting because they do change their continuity like four or five times. And

that's supposed to give it like a reboot. But what it really does to like an outsider like me is just make the lore like super complicated. You know? Yeah. Because now you're like, well, now there's five robins and all of those robins have five backstories. to each of them you're like, well, what,

why that's too many things to comprehend, you know? But I think he did a pretty good job with it, honestly, you know, and you even mentioned like other stuff we could talk about further. Like, you know,

those like the whole nightwing stop, the Red Hood, there's other characters that came out of that, you know? Yeah. So, um,

I find this interesting. I don't know if the people did, the people listening to all four of the people listening to this. Hopefully you guys liked it. Well, with three. get those people.

We are. And then there's one other person. There's one other person out there. We know who the hell they are. Hello. Hi. If you want to vote, the one person listening to this,

if you want to vote as to whether or not Jason Todd lives or dies, if he gets bludgeoned to death by the Joker, or he gets bludgeoned to almost death by the Joker, please leave in the comments.

This is very important. it will determine the future of Batman forever. So, John, do you have any Robin thoughts? Yeah, like I say, just that it's such a weird concept to me, the kid's sidekick, but I mean, I guess it works. Like, you need that sort of light to balance the darker Batman. And like you pointed out, like give Batman someone to talk to who isn't, Alfred, so, you know, I've never been a big Robin fan, but I can sort of see his appeal.

But, yeah, it's been an interesting history on... I can see the appeal as, like, a young reader. Yeah. Yeah, if you're reading that and you go, I'll never be bad. I'll never be a billionaire. I'll be bad, man. but like Robin is just some guy that like tried really hard and like you know managed to work his way up and he's not bad now but he's still like in the mix he's still

part of it you're like well that's pretty cool yeah you know so this one's a little bit different from the last couple we've done uh we didn't really go into financials or rotten tomato ratings or whatever because uh for the most part Robin still hasn't been featured in too many major motion pictures aside from the Joel Schumacher Batman movies. I guess Christopher Nolan technically got away with it with Joseph Gordon Levitt, if you count that. Kind of. Yeah, I don't know many people who do count it. But still, like you said, this was more of a character study

than something we've done in the last couple episodes. But still kind of good to get you guys into some unfamiliar waters with the world of DC and their love of just cranking out new characters. and not really one to get rid of any of them. To be fair, like, what I liked it with this episode was, like you pointed out earlier, me and John are kind of more Marvel people than DC. I like it whenever we get that balance. You know, you're the DC guy.

You get the chance to talk about that. And, you know, tell people and educate us as well. Like, that's a good dynamic for the show. Yeah. Well, I can tell you that if I ever really want to. to confuse you and myself, all we have to do is start talking about Hawkman. Listen, man, it is so easy to confuse me. Maybe we'll say that for later.

Yeah, that'll be our rainy day episode. There's nothing else to talk about. We just want to confuse ourselves and everyone else. Probably next week. Next week. Yeah, probably. But speaking of next week, we're going to go ahead and call it wraps on this one. Again, thank you for joining us very much.

It's been fun getting back into our third volume here of different topics and stuff. So until next time, I'll be seeing you around. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye.