The Smark Avengers - Vol 3, Ep 30: The Smark Avengers Talk Knightfall (Part One)

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

It was hard times being a super hero in the early 1990s! Superman died, Green Lantern went crazy, and someone broke the Bat! Who is Bane? Who is the guy in the high-tech batsuit if Bruce is in a wheelchair? How does Bruce Wayne bounce back from paralysis? Join Corey, Dylan, and Jon as they discuss the 1990s DC Comics Event - Knightfall!

Let's kill him. We're recording now. God damn it. I think when we start recording, we don't know who I plan to kill, though, so it's all right. Yeah, it's fine. We have deniability now. No, you'll never know. But then if somebody dies within the week this podcast goes out, maybe it was us, maybe it wasn't.

We'll never admit the truth. You'll have to follow the clues like everybody else. There you go. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Spark Avengers. My name is Corey. with me is Dylan and John. Guys, how you doing?

Hi, that's the intro, is it? Yep. All right, good. Let's make it sure. Mm-hmm. Doing good. Were you expecting something more grandiose? You think it was on longer than that.

Right? Well, usually, yeah, but we get... Oh, yeah, I guess we got a lot of grind to cover today, so... Yeah. I'm straight into it. And no fucking around, guys. Here we go. DCB, taking care of business.

That's us, baby. As Elvis's band would say. Well, they said a lot of stuff. You guys like Elvis Presley? I've never met it. You beat me to it, you bastard. John, did you see the Bazlerman Elvis movie? Yes.

What'd you think of it? I can't remember. Which is not a good sign. What did you give it out of? five. I'm just looking it up. I gave it three.

Two and a half out of five. What, really? Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm not really a huge Baznerman fan anyway.

Yeah, he's got to start. And Tom Hanks was really doing a bit in there as well. Yeah. I heard the one. Can I tell you my favorite part about the Colonel Parker character

is that he was very clearly an English immigrant, but nobody knew what someone from West Virginia was supposed to sound like. So they're like, yeah, he's from West Virginia. That was my favorite part of watching that. I was like, oh, shit, they really did have no idea what we sounded like, huh? I mean, I have no idea. And I'm on a show with you.

That's true. Well, because I don't sound like most West Virginia. We have to get Brady on here. Nobody knows who Brady is. Yeah, let's get Brady on. He seems like he knows loads of my comics. knows loads you know he'd be great on the show

he certainly would speaking of knowing loads about things today and potentially beyond that we're going to be doing a deep dive on another storyline we kind of did this before with the clone saga

and the death of superband so today we are going to discuss the Batman storyline Nightfall do you guys have any familiarity with this story. Is this the Bain one? Yes.

Then I am familiar with the Bain and the thing that happens is to Batman. So I've actually got three graphic novels covering most of Nightfall, I think. Well, I think

the collected editions I have is like Night 4 uh, they've got different names. I can't remember what they are. But yeah, basically, I've got all three of those. Oh, yeah, we'll be talking about all of it. So have you read them or are they on your

to-do list? Oh, no, I've read them, but probably about 10, maybe even 15 years ago, so it's not exactly fresh in my mind. Okay. All right, so as we discussed in the Death of Superman episode,

DC Comics in the 90s was an interesting place of change. We were just a few years past the original crisis, crisis on infinite Earths, that reset the continuity for the first time. But in the 90s, there was this industry-wide self-reflection on what kind of superheroes people wanted to read. So similar to how Death and Superman addressed why Superman is so important to D.C. by illustrating I was death-impacted heroes, supporting characters, and villains alike. Nightfall was a storyline in the Batman world that was supposed to basically show the same thing. So to start us off, this is a brainchild of Batman line editor Dennis O'Neill, who is a legend in my book, as well as Batman line writers, Chuck Dixon, Doug Mionic, and Alan Grant.

Any of those names familiar to you guys? Alan Grant is star of Jurassic Park. That's what I was going to say. I'm like, Alan Grant sounds familiar. Played by Sam Neal. Yeah. Do you guys I want to do with dinosaurs? What's going on here?

Is there going to be dinosaurs in this, in this famine? Well, in the Batcave, there is a giant T-Rex statue. What did he steal that from? He got it from one of his cases where it was like a robot dinosaur that he had to stop. So why? What? I thought it was a skeleton. Yeah, it's like a, no, no, it's not a skeleton.

It's a robot. Okay, cool. Because when I think, like, when you think about it, like a, you know, trinosaurus, whatever, you're like, obviously it's a skeleton. a skeleton because there's no more transaurus is around anymore. But a robot one makes sense to have. But then I was like, why would it have a skeleton? Yeah, like if you picked

up a Batman book without knowing why it was there, you'd be just yeah, ask him, like, why is there a D-Rex in the back cave? There's also a giant penny. Yeah. It's because he's a fucking billionaire. Of course he has a dinosaur in his room.

You know what you mean? Who else is going to spend? on a super yacht that gets sank and or a trip to see the Titanic and a submarine. No, he's going to spend it on a dinosaur. Well, yeah, I mean, so he has the giant dinosaur, there's a giant penny, there's a glass case that has his dead sidekick's costume in it. There's a lot going on in the back cave. It would be weird if the glass case had his dead sidekick in it.

Like that would be weird. Yeah, yeah. You know, like the thing about that glass case with that, with the costume of Jason Todd in it, It has gotten smashed so many times. Like, you have to wonder, like, is he just sent an Alfred to IKEA to get another, like, D-Tolf to put that bad boy in? Yeah, don't you think at some point he'd be like, guy, get a stronger case. Stop getting the shitty one. I know it's cheap.

Why do you even still have it up as well? Jason Todd came back from the dead. Well, I don't think he has it now. That'd be really weird unless it's like, if Jason swings by, he's like, hey, you want to put it on for old time's sake. Yeah, Jason Todd's like, can I have my shit back? Yes. That was one of the people who did break it open, by the way, when Jason Todd came back, he smashed the case and put on the top half of it to go confront Tim Drake for the first time. Was he just nude in the bottom half?

Yeah, he was Donald ducking it, any of who? Yeah, just his little, like, you know, just hanging out there. That's his red hood. He's not circumcised. He's like, guys, is there any cold out here? is it to be. All right. Well, so Nightfall ran from April of 1993 to August of

1994. Coincidentally, death of Superman ran from December of 1992 to October of 1993. The writers for Superman and Batman had no idea they were doing this. Denny O'Neill denies that the nightfall storyline was inspired

by death of Superman and has gone on the record to state that it had been in development for about three years. And if they had known, they would have pushed the storyline down another year or two to keep from that overlap happening. But all of this can be traced back to an initial idea for the character of Asriel that came part of a two-part story idea that was pitched to Denny O'Neill by Peter Milligan in 1991. That initial pitch was expanded to a four-issue miniseries titled Batman Sword of Asriel. That was followed by a one-shot titled Batman Vengeance of Bain, 11 issues of Batman to build up to

the story and then the three arcs story nightfall night quest and nights end and follow-up story arcs that made up the entire storyline so in total nightfall only ran from april 93 to august and 94 but in reality it had run from like probably the end of 92 to about 95 96 97 like this had a long kind of a longer impact impressive Nightfall introduced two main characters that had a major part on the storyline. So before we get into Nightfall, we need to introduce these two. So we're going to talk about Asriel and Bain. First off, do you guys, are you familiar are you with Asriel?

As familiar as you've talked about them a couple of times before on the show. Okay. Pretty much, yeah. Asriel is one of my top five characters. Love this guy. Couldn't tell you why. Just do. But Azrael was created by Denny O'Neill and designed by Joe Cassata.

And Asriel is an anti-hero who was introduced in Batman sort of Asriel and becomes one of the main characters of Nightfall, if not the main character. In the miniseries, John Paul Valley is a graduate student of Gotham University who discovers that he was brainwashed as a child by a secret religious order of assassins when his dying father turns up at his door in battle armor. This triggers the system, which was the brainwashing conditioning he was put under as a child, and that activated him as the new Asriel with the mission to find a wayward member of the Order of St. Dumas that was responsible for his father's death. So as a child, John was trained to be ruthless, cold-blooded, and to kill without conscience, but his memories were erased until he was activated one day. In reality, John is soft-spoken and introverted and shy, but, Asrael, when the system is active, is direct, aggressive, and very unforgiving. So John finds himself drawn to an old order of St. Dumas temple in Europe, where he learns the truth about his upbringing, his father, and his secret place in the world.

And while his father had the mantle of Asriel, he dressed up like an old knight of, like an old Templar knight with chain mail and plate armor and wielding a sword. But due to John's genius level intellect, he upgraded the armor to be more tech-based with dual wrist gauntlets that. had like massive blades on them, flame throwers, and a long sword that could be engulfed with flames with a press of a button. So as Israel begins to go about his mission of vengeance, he encounters Batman, who is also investigating his father's death, and the two collide at first. Eventually, John fights through the system to rescue Batman, when he could have easily just killed his father's murderer, which convinces Bruce that he can be trained and saved as an ally. John begins working with Bruce Wayne and Tim Drake at night, while working as a security guard for Wayne Enterprises during the day. So when creating Asriel, Dennis O'Neill stated that he wanted to make a foil for Batman. And he stated, quote, Bruce Wayne is very aware of what he is and how that contributes to what he does.

He is not moved by internal or external forces that he doesn't already understand. John Paul, on the other hand, has virtually no idea who he really is. He is, in the worst possible way, ignorant. So he had a rotten childhood he can barely remember. Conversely, Bruce remembers his childhood, which was up until that one critical moment, very happy and privileged. So they are extreme opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. So that is what you need to know about Asriel before we go in. Any thoughts?

No. Sounds good. Bain was created by Chuck Dixon and designed by Graham Nolan. Bain is introduced in the one-shot Batman Vengeance of Bain. Bain's father had been a revolutionary who had escaped the court system of Santa Prisca, an island country in the Caribbean. Upon his father's mysterious death, the corrupt government decreed that his young son would serve out his life sentence. And thus Bainz spent his childhood and early adult life in the country's Pena Doro Prison. While in prison, he read as many books to see he get his hands on, spent most of his spare time doing bodybuilding training,

in the prison's gym, developed his own form of meditation and learned to fight in the merciless school of prison life. Despite circumstances that were beyond his control, he found teachers of various sorts during his incarceration, ranging from hardened criminals to an elderly Jesuit priest who gave him a classical education while he was there. Bain committed his first murder at the age of eight stabbing a criminal who wanted to use him to gain information about the prison. Me too. There you go. His murder weapon was a knife that he kept hidden in a teddy bear named Ocito.

Aw. Yeah. Bain is tortured by a monstrous, terrifying bat creature that appears in his dreams, and it gives him an intense fear of bats. He ultimately established himself as the king of the Pena Doro Prison and became, you know, that's when he took on the name Bain. Up into that point, he had been nameless. That's how young he was when he was incarcerated. The prison's controllers took note and eventually forced him to become a test subject for a mysterious drug called Venom, which had killed all of their other subjects. The Peñodoro Prison Venom experiment nearly killed Bain at first, but he survived and found that the drug vastly increased his physical strength, although he needed to take it every 12 hours via a system of tubes that pumped directly into his skull, or he would suffer debilitating side effects, thus rendering him addicted.

Bain escapes Pena Doro along with several accomplices, with his ambition turning to destroy Batman about whom he had heard stories about. Gotham's city fascinates Bain because, like Pena Doro, fear rules Gotham, but it is the fear of Batman. So Bain is convinced that Batman is the personification of that bat, which he had had in his dream since childhood. So therefore, Bain believed it was fate that he had to take out Batman in order to take control of Gotham. So that is everything you need to know about. Bain before we get started. Wait, wait, wait. What's his favorite flavor of ice cream?

He strikes me as a Rocky Road guy. Fair enough. Deni, that's all I need to know by then. There you go. John, any thoughts on Bain? Nope, not ready. Cool. All right, so in the buildup to Nightfall,

the writers began to put Batman through the ringer. So after encounters with three different killers and assassins, Bruce Wayne is left wondering if he's losing his edge as his body is being worn down with fatigue. Meanwhile, Bruce has left Robin, who's Tim Drake at this time, to help train John Paul and detective work, hoping that the meticulous nature of that would guide his brainwashing away from being an assassin. Bruce begins ignoring the advice of friends and allies alike as they tell him that he needs to rest, while also continuing to deal with his trauma from Jason Todd's death. Meanwhile, Bain and his accomplices are seen watching and observing Batman. Bain then becomes more active with his observations and begins to make his presence in Gotham and his intentions known by forcing encounters between Batman and Killer Croc, as well as drugging the Riddler with a dose of venom and sending him after Batman. So with each of these and other encounters, Bain studies Batman from afar and begins to assess the strengths and weaknesses.

Meanwhile, Robin is struggling to work with Asriel due to John's lack of social skills and the violent brainwashing, as well as Batman is beginning to shut him out because Batman is once again weighing these options of why do I have a sidekick. So all of this culminates when Bain assaults Arkham Asylum, breaking out all of the inmates and arming them with weapons. So that's the preamble to nightfall. Now you can get started to nightfall proper. So Nightfall is broken into three arcs, with the first arc being called Nightfall, but even that is broken into two parts. So this is what I was saying, like when I was putting this together, like, there's a lot to this story. So Nightfall is the first arc and is broken up into Broken Bat and Who Rules the Night? So Broken Bat picks up where we left off.

Bain has released all of Arkham's most dangerous criminals at once, and a physically exhausted and emotionally drained Batman has to apprehend them all. Among the freed inmates, there are numerous high-profile villains such as the Joker, the Scarecrow, the Ridler, and Poison Ivy, as well as many lesser-known villains, which I know Dylan's going to love to hear all of these names. The Mad Hatter, the Ventriloquist, the Firefly, the Cavalier, the Film Freak, Mr. Zaz. I knew what I was going to get you. I was going to figure out. there was going to be one you're going to like, Mr. Zaz, Cornelius Stirk,

Abitouar, and Amygdala. What is Cornelius Stork? What is his name? Cornelius Stork. Stirk. Cornelius, what does he do? Cornelius Sturk is a cannibal with the ability to cause fear or hallucinations through telepathy.

So, yeah, he looks kind of like the cryptkeeper. I mean, if my name was Cornelius Sturke or Studge or whatever, I would eat people too. Yeah. So, yeah, he looks like the Crip Keeper and he'll make you scared and then he'll eat you. Understandable. All right. Does he eat bats though? He tries to.

Fair enough. At least he tries. Yeah. What about film freak? What does he do? The film freak? Just watch his film. I mean, that sounds like John.

Hey, he's no freak. No, come on, no. So the film freak is a serial killer whose main gimmick is that he commits murders to tribute famous movie crimes. Oh, it's just like me. Well, they've got to get the inspiration from somewhere,

you know. So, so yeah, mainly he like stalks people like Norman Bates in the movie, Psycho. and, you know, a lot of shit like that. Okay. All right. So despite having Robin at his side, Batman continues to shut him out as he tries to capture all these criminals alone. During this time, Bain studies Batman to such a degree that he's able to identify him as Bruce Wayne by body language alone during an incident where Poison Ivy takes control of the minds of Gotham's elite during a socializing event.

Bain has no interest in Bruce Wayne, the individual, as opposed to the symbol. of Batman, so he chooses not to out him. There's just nothing to gain from doing that for him. So, by the way, I think that makes, like, in the span of a few years, like, the second person to identify Batman without ever actually having to see him unmasked, because the first one was Tim Drake, who figured out that Bruce was Batman because he had seen Dick Grayson perform in his parents' trapeze act. and Robin did a flip that he'd only ever seen Dick Grayson do

and through like transitive properties figured out that Bruce was Batman. I just thought that was interesting. So everything comes to a head when Batman faces off with Joker and the Scarecrow at the same time and relives Jason Todd's death while under the influence of Scarecrow Sphere Toxin. Now that his physical limit and wits end, Bain strikes now. First he sends his partners to attack Batman to further weaken him before meeting Batman at Wayne Manor. So the fight between Bain and Batman

takes place in Batman issue number 497. So after spending the past three months being pushed to the brink physically and psychologically, Batman is no match for the fresh tactical mind and venom-enhanced strength of Bain. The fight leads to the Batcave where Bain pummles Bruce relentlessly before lifting his body high above his head and breaking his back across his knee.

A very famous panel of that. Bain then takes Batman's body to a densely populated Gotham Square and tosses him off of the roof as a symbolic message that Batman has been broken. Robin and Alfred were able to intervene, but Bruce Wayne is left paraplegic as a result of the attack. Bain proceeds to take over Gotham's underworld and has now assumed control over its criminal enterprises. So that is the end of Act 1 of Act 1, Broken Bat. Any thoughts on Bain's play? How many issues was Act 1? Act 1.

It's a good bit. Let me take a quick look. To we vamp while you're looking for stuff? Yeah, if you'd like. All right. What do you think Film Freak's favorite film is? Yeah, John, what's your favorite film? No.

The fictional character, Film Freak, that in no way who resembles our podcast host John. I reckon Joel, maybe. I was thinking of a Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I mean, yeah. Because he's a killer.

You know what you mean? If he mimics his crimes to make it look like a film. Well, yeah, he can still dress up as a shock and eat people. Like the Lanark bit from Saturday Night Live? Yeah.

There you go. Yeah. Fair at all. So, uh, broken. bat is 12 issues that is covered in Batman and Detective Comics. So that ran from late April, late April, July 93.

Okay. So yeah, that panel of Bain breaking Batman's back, very iconic. Kind of this, not not the same kind of power of like the torn Superman cape from death of Superman, but it's up there. Yeah, still pretty impactful. So who rules the knight is the second piece of this story that starts with Bruce Wayne contacting a doctor by the name of Chandra Kinsolving to assist him with his injury. She was his somewhat love interest at the time and had been helping him address his physical fatigue, as well as attending to Robin's catatonic father, Jack Drake.

That's another kind of aspect of this that is covered right as Tim Drake becomes Robin. his parents were kidnapped and his mother died and his father was rendered like catatonic as a result of the attack. Thus, like how Tim Drake can basically sneak out of his house every night and be Robin. Alfred and Bruce explained to her that he'd been in a car accident. But Dr. Kinsolving seemingly saw through that. Obviously didn't say anything about it, though. And she begins to treat Bruce right along with Jack Drake. So over the course of the rehabilitation treatment, Bruce and Dr. Kinsolving began to fall for one another.

So the question then becomes, what happens to Batman? Gotham needs a Batman? That's an established fact, right? I guess. So Tim Drake nominates that Nightwing should be Batman because Dick Grayson knows the city, knows how Batman operates, is mentally competent and more experienced. And frankly, Tim is a bit of a day. grace and superfan. Bruce, however, says that Nightwing has enough responsibilities on his hands with his own life and leading the Titans.

It's important to note that at this point in time, Batman and Nightwing did not have a great relationship. Post crisis, the interactions were more of Nightwing resented the fact that Bruce had basically replaced him with Jason Todd after he left. You know, because, like, Robin was like his name. And it would just imagine somebody just given your name to somebody else. But he also resented the fact that he felt that Bruce didn't do a good enough job training Jason, and thus Jason's death was on him. So they weren't getting along super hot.

He also said that Grayson would only accept the role of Batman reluctantly. But in actuality, Bruce knew that Dick would probably want to go after Bain, and he deemed that Bain is too dangerous for anyone to go after. So instead, Bruce Wayne decides that John Paul Valley would take on the role of Batman's protector with strict orders to stay away from Bain. Bruce, however, does not get to monitor John closely as Dr. Kinsolving and Jack Drake are kidnapped. Bruce and Alfred Opp to pursue their kidnappers, leaving Gotham in the hands of John Paul Valley. So initially, John Paul is a different sort of Batman, but not dangerous. His lack of social skills and disinterest in detective works set him apart, as well as his more aggressive. and physical combat style.

John was very, very strong and very fast, despite his appearance. He also began to experiment with gadgets and modifying Batman's suit with items that he wore on his Azrael armor, included these really gnarly-looking bladed gauntlets. So two big moments in his start-as Batman that stands out are his first encounter with Bain, who immediately recognized that the man of the Batman suit was not the person he'd broken. Bain nearly kills Asriel or John before he's able to use his blade of gotlets and get away. The second moment is when John goes after the scarecrow and the scarecrow hits him with fear toxin. And that causes the system to take over John's body and basically counteract the fear toxin.

So the combination of this humiliating defeat against Bain and then the system coming back was a recipe for disaster. Robin was continuing to assist John but found himself growing more alienated because John was beginning to get arrogant and also incredibly paranoid So as the system began to take a bigger hold of John He began to create even more and more modifications for the bat suit So that is the end of the second part of act one who rules the night And that was 10 issues From late July to October 93 and that was covered in Detective Comics, Showcase 93, Batman, Batman Shadow of the Bat.

Any thoughts on how Act 1 has come and gone? So that's the whole of Act 1? That is all of Act 1. So, I mean, that's pretty impactful so far. A lot went on. Shaking up the status quo? Yes. And like we had said in a different episode, it seems like they did not a lot in the 90s.

where they were taking established characters and just turning them on their heads. And like you even said, right after the death of Superman, which I think, you know, it kind of makes sense, like keep the pressure on, keep people interested.

So, like, a big shakeup like that with Batman is, you know, something people didn't expect. Yeah. And also what I like about it is really, like, right off the bat, establishes being, it was like a big fucking deal.

You know what you mean? He figures out he breathed when it is. He fucking cripples him. He even figures out that like the other guy isn't to see him Batman. You know, he's, they're doing a good job of like building him up, making him seem like a big deal, you know? I think the thing about Bain that because of the venom and it gives him like super strength and usually makes him grow bigger, that a lot of people tend to forget that he is like a tactical genius because that's really what makes Bain scary is just how clever he is

and like how well prepared he is in any moment. You know, Bain is one of my favorite Batman villains. He's, you know, as Riel's in my top five, Bain's probably in my top three of Batman villains. So, John, since you had read this previously, anything there that stands out that I might have missed or didn't put enough emphasis on or anything that like you had forgotten about. Not really. Like the,

the only thing I really remember from when I read this so long ago was the bit with Joker and Ritter teaming up before like Bain sort of, you know, struck basically. But they were I swear they were like being chased by Batman through sewers or something. But that's like the only thing I can remember from this entire

storyline. That's fair. All right. So NightQuest is the second arc of the story and that is also broken up in two parts. Which is NightQuest the Crusade and NightQuest the search.

So Nightquest The Search follows the story of Bruce Wayne and Alfred Pennyworth, tracking down the man who kidnapped Dr. Kinsolving and Robin's father, Jack Drake. Their investigation has them traveled from the Caribbean Islands and to Great Britain before discovering the identification of the kidnapper as Dr. Kinsolving's brother by adoption. In a shocking reveal, it is discovered that Dr. Kinsolving and her brother have metahuman abilities to heal or harm people. After an incident when they were children that resulted in the death of their abusive adopted father, Dr. Kin Solving swore to never use her powers again, but her brother only wanted to embrace them further. So he had kidnapped her and Jack Drake as a hostage so that he could force her to experiment with her powers. Eventually, it's discovered that her brother had created a psychic weapon that could send the harmful energy that she could generate out and kill someone from a great distance away, which he used to kill their adult.

adopted mother. To accomplish this, he kept a sister drugged and connected to a machine that siphoned out her powers, basically. When Bruce and Alfred find them, a fight breaks out, and her brother is injured in the fight. Dr. Kinsolving attempts to heal her brother, but the drugged out state that she's in leaves her confused, and she ends up killing him instead. Dr. Kinsolving, overcome with regret for all the lives lost and the damage that came about on her account, heals Bruce's broken spine completely, but the strain and the chemical influences reverts her permanently into a childlike state. Bruce overcome with sadness at this loss in life, checks Dr. Kin solving into a medical home so that she can live out the rest of her life under the best care available. Bruce ends up deciding to return to Gothen with Jack Drake as a civilian, but Alfred decides to stay in England as he does not want to see Bruce be tempted to return to his life as Batman. And that is the NightQuest, the search.

The search was a lot shorter. Only about seven issues. It was mainly a backup from books, and this took place in Justice League Task Force, Batman Shadow of the Bat, Batman Legends of the Dark Knight, and an issue of Robin. There's your How to Heel Someone from a Broken Back, by the way. you end up just getting someone who is a doctor who quite you know just so happens to have healing of powers that she has been neglecting to use this entire time but this time she'll use it yes and it turned her into a child that always happens to me yeah always every time i healed somebody with my magical powers which some people would say is is an abuse of my my um doctorate but i said no i'm just going to heal people with my magical abilities and then turn into a child and then grow up again get another doctor become another doctor and heal somebody again do it all over again live forever

just becoming a little baby is that part of the storyline did they do that uh no because that's what i actually become she didn't actually become a baby um she basically she just basically like became mentally on the same scale as a child. Oh, they didn't like, like... No, it's not a baby juggernaut situation. Okay. I mean, nothing is a baby juggernaut situation. If we've learned one thing about this show,

nothing in comics has become a baby juggernaut situation, except that one thing we made up two months ago. It's been longer than two months, man. That we didn't properly talk about it on the block. We've never really addressed baby jogging. juggernaut just so you know. We never will. No, no, no.

I think it started off, off, off, off, Mike, and then baby juggernaut just came up in conversation and there he is safe. It's become a legend, no, the legend of baby juggernaut. You know, if we ever do get to the point of making merch, I would love to have a t-shirt that the front of it looks like one of those little papooses

that you carry a baby in, but it's just a baby juggernaut. Yeah. This is a big helmet, stick it at the top. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. You know, we're getting right on that. We'll work. on that, we'll work on that. Um, I thought he healed himself in like the Lazarus pit.

Nope. See, I, I haven't read the book, obviously. Like I said, you know, um, but like I know the Lazarus pits in Batman are known for their healing properties. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what brought Jason Todd back to life. It's what keeps Razaa live. So that's, I guess that's why- It makes you go a bit mad as well, though, doesn't it?

Yeah, makes you crazy. I mean, he's what he's not. He dressed up like a fucking bat. But yeah, I think there's been, this story's been, I will say, somewhat adapted because some aspects of the story, and we'll talk about it when we get to that part, get left behind. But I would not be surprised if there has been in some manner or another story where Batman gets his back broken and it gets put into a Lazarus pit.

Yeah, maybe I'm confusing it with something else. Maybe people just love breaking his back and thinking, that's it, he'll never come back from this. Not like it happened one other time. This is it. I've broken his back, therefore I assume he's dead, and I'm just going to walk away.

All right, so NightQuest the Crusade is kind of the main aspect of NightQuest. This starts in issue, Batman issue number 500, as John in a new high-tech armored bat suit that resembles the Asriel costume

a little bit more than Bruce's, hunts down Bain. Eventually he is found and John and Bain fight it out while putting countless bystanders in danger. With the new suit and the weapons that come along with it and the hardened edge that comes with the system being in full force, John is able to physically and mentally break Bain. Originally, he struggles with either killing Bain or letting him be captured alive. He ends up opting to send Bain to Blackgate prison instead. And as John looks out at Gotham after the fight, it becomes more and more obvious that the cracks in his mental health are starting to show. So John's tenure as Batman goes on, the system begins to take further control over him and becomes more and more violent and unstable as he begins to see the spirit of his father and St. Dumas himself, who are guiding him on his crusade of violence. Tim Drake, who is still sitting at his side as Robin is horrified as he watches John mercilessly beat low-level thieves and criminals with weapons and nearly to death.

at the same time. During this time, the bat suit sees even more modifications and begins to further resemble the Azrael armor further. So in addition to the metal gauntlets, he adds razor-sharp batarangs, high-powered laser, and fling throwers before creating his own bat symbol to replace the one that was associated with Bruce. The system is basically at this point pushing John to think he could become a better Batman than Bruce Wayne could ever be. Eventually, John cast Tim out of the Batcave claiming that the only solution to Gotham's crime is increased violence, and Robin was going to just stand in his way, so he would be treated like any other criminal if he tried to do so. John also harms Batman's relationship with the Gotham police due to his violence streak,

to the point that even Commissioner Jim Gordon is unnerved and frightened of this new Batman. And it wasn't just his allies who were noticing a difference, as both Catwoman and the Joker, both realized that the violent man in the bad suit wasn't their Batman in their encounters. Dylan, you're going to love this. John also faced other low-level criminals, including Mr. Freeze, the trigger twins, Gun Hawk and Gun Bunny, the Tallyman. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Gun Hawk and Gun Bunny, that we got you this time?

That's the one. Okay. And Gunn Bunny. Yes. So they are twins? No, no. They are a husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, I'm not really sure what they're. their marital status is

duo of sharpshooters. Okay. And one of them is a bird. Nope. And one of them is a rabbit. They're both human. Hmm. Yep. Well, I guess if they call themselves

gun person and gun person, it wouldn't have been... Gun man, gun girl. Yeah. Wouldn't have been as flashy. But Gun Bunny. Gun Bonnie actually sounds cool. I mean, you know, if you like a box and blonde, you know,

holding a sniper rifle like many gun-toting Republicans do. That's America for you. Which Gun Hawk does wear an American flag bandana. So there you go. Yeah, but Gun Hawk, obviously Gun Hawk is like the most fucking America thing, right? Yeah.

It sounds so, but Gun Bunny sounds fun, sounds nice. I like Gunnobney. Not a fan of Gunnawk. Gunnhock sounds to me now that you mention it like Charlie Day in that episode of It's Always Sunny where he's wearing the denim jacket. the American black bandanas.

He says eagle, but like, you know, same difference, really. What's the difference being a hawk and an eagle? Nothing as far as I know. There you go. So he managed John fought all of these low-level criminals and dealt with each of them very brutally. This culminated with the

death of a low-level villain named Abattoir. Abattoir was a serial killer who believed every member of his family were evil, and that by killing them, he would absorb their power. So John tracked Abattoir down to a refinery and engaged in a chase. Abattoir slipped off of a catwalk and managed to catch himself on a chain hanging over a vat of molten metal. Robin, who had been keeping tabs on John, just watched on in horror as John just stared emotionlessly as Abattoir fell to his painful death in molten metal. Afterwards, John was horrified to discover that Abattoir had been keeping a member of his family held hostage in an unlearn location, thus by letting Abattoir.

fall to his death, John had condemned his innocent victim to certain death as no one would know where they were being kept. Yeah, he already fucked that one up, didn't they? Sure did. So why did John let him fall? He was gridlocked. In his head, he could see the spirit of St. Dumas, telling him that he had to save the man, but then he also saw the spirit of his father who told him that he needed to throw a razor

at Avatar's head and kill him immediately. John was not sure what to do and so he did nothing and that's how Batman was responsible for his first death in Gotham technically technically so that is the end

so that is the end of both parts of nightfall or not nightfall but night quest night quest night quest the quest for the night indeed so

what we have a statement established. Bain is off the board now. This new bat, much similar to how like in death of Superman, how Superman struggled and died fighting against Doomsday. And then when Cyborg Superman showed up, he was able to deal with Doomsday, no problem, you know, essentially three minutes space. Yes. Sort of a similar beat here where John, having failed against Bain the first time in his second attempt, has more armor, has more weapons, and has that brainwashing that makes him a ruthless killer. pumping through his system again, and he's able to deal with Bain and basically humiliates him, separates them from a source of venom, you know, which almost certainly cripples him to a degree. So Bain is off the board, and John has established himself as Batman now. And as such, he has completely alienated everyone around him. Robin's been kicked out of the Batcave. Commissioner Gordon, who has spent most of his career being able to trust.

trust Bruce or trust Batman has no idea who this guy is and is scared of him. The Joker and Catwoman are both like, whoa, who the fuck is this guy? Because at this point, Selena Kyle did not know who Batman was under the mask. And I think she was, if memories are correct, the way she knew that Batman was not Bruce was due to his pheromones. Because Catwoman had enhanced smell at this point. at that point at that point I don't think she does anymore

I didn't that's new to me I never heard that before so this was in the 90s this was catwoman in like the purple costume that had a tail if memory serves I always thought that was weird

to know why they felt they need to give her a tail she's a cat I always thought like a cheeky way around that was when she would tie the whip around her waist yeah But that's not as good as a real teal, though. No. So think of with that.

So I don't know if, like I said, that is, we're kind of at the halfway point of this right now. I think it's quite interesting. I like the way you said. There's parallels between, again, parallels between the Adaptive Superman and this story, in that, like, the big ultimate bad guy does the down. I mean, it's early on in the story, but then as the story goes on, like, that's, that's not the crescendo of the story. Yeah.

Like, you think it would be. You would think the death of Superman would be they'd get rid of the guy that killed Superman, but that's not what it is. There's like so many other twists and turns to go along with that. And so quite similar to this storyline, you would think, but I think, I think it's, honestly, I think it's a bit different because, and yet, we have yet to hear where it goes, so I don't know. But, like, honestly, in my head, I'm like,

Batman seems like the kind of guy who would want not so much vengeance, but like retribution against Bain, the guy that like fucked him up that badly. Yeah. As opposed to Superman who is just kind of like, because he's such like the good every man, he's just happy to see Doomsday not be there anymore. That's the good thing.

He's in fucking space. Yeah. Great. Right. I don't got to deal with him anymore. Hooray. Whereas Batman, you feel like, After all the shit that being put him through and all the shit that Batman has to do to come back from that, you know, and all the uncertainty that Batman goes through, like, is Gotham going to be okay with the guy I put in charge?

Like, is that going to work out? You would think that he would have some kind of, you know, if he comes back and then everybody's like, everything's okay. Wouldn't you be like, I don't believe you, you know? I feel like Batman as a character would probably want to get. some kind of closure, I'll say, on being. And again, I'm saying this like as a guy that doesn't know what the end of the story is. Maybe in the last issue, Bain's like, it's me, bitches, you know, and then shoots a bunch of guys and if Batman kicks him in the head.

That could happen. I don't know. But like to me, but from where we are in the story right now, I would imagine that I see the parallels between that and death of the Superman, but I would say that it feels like Batman would want some kind of closure against him, you know. The thing about they kind of did the same thing here where, um, in death of Superman, they took that three month break after the funeral for a friend arc ended to give

the impression of like, hey, the world of Superman's done for right now. And then they did all the new solicitations with four new Superman and like, who's the real Superman? Um, they played this straight again.

Like, nightfall, like this is a person. permanent change. John Paul Valley's Batman. He's the Batman of the 90s. You know, like, this is what comic book fans want. You want morally gray anti-heroes. So here's a morally gray anti-hero. Do you that we want that? Like I said, I mean, Venom Lethal Protector and Punisher War Journal and the ghost writer's spirit of vengeance, like these were all like pretty well selling books. They were very, very popular. So the anti-hero thing was a big.

deal. Did you guys, like, read a lot of anti-hero books in the 90s? I read some, I read some Vanham Stop. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, so in our episode of, like, most 90s characters, I had introduced Fate, which was, like, the biggest shift in character tone ever from Dr. Fate to this guy who stole magic artifacts that,

basically had a fuck magic approach but became the wielder of Nabu and like melted the Dr. Fate Helman into a knife. Like that's how hardcore he was. I had been reading those issues of that series. And anti-hero stuff was like, was real fucking big. And like it's also like it doesn't hold up or at least fate certainly didn't,

which I was not under the impression that fate was going to be a good book when I started reading it. But yeah, like you said, John Paul Valley was meant to be the Batman moving forward to such a degree. Kind of a throwback to one of our most previous episodes, which DC versus Marvel, when the comic book companies got along better, there was a special Batman Punisher team up book that came out. That was the Asreal Batman and Frank Castle, which I think I have actually. Nice. Hidden in your vault. It's actually in a long box.

It's right beside me, I think. That's your vault. Yeah, it's my vault. It's a cardboard box. Yeah. It's not sturdy. Yeah. Put a big brick on top of it so nobody can lift it off.

Yeah. So to kind of go back to the Crusade, NightQuest of the Crusade, that one was 25 issues from October 93 to July to June. 94 and that was through detective comics Batman Shadow of the Bat Batman cat woman so 25 issues spread across those books for that period of time that's a lot of story it is a lot of story uh this is like you said when I first started putting this together I was like all right we'll cover nightfall night quest and night's end and that will be well that that'll be the But then it was like there's all this preamble before it where it's like we got to introduce John Paul Valley. So there's the Azrael mini series. We got to introduce Bain. So here's a Bain one shot. Then there's the lead up where Bain was like gradually escalating things. And you start to get the hints of like John Paul Valley may not be totally there still. You know, like yeah, he's doing better, but he's still like a little fucked up. So they did a lot of buildup to this story before it really started. And I kind of felt like I had to cover it. So we're going to call that as part one of our nightfall coverage.

Part two, we will have on next week's show where we will cover Night's End, the ending story arcs that took place after that, what happened with the main characters, adaptations and alternate versions of this story. Like I said, there's a lot to this. I just want to make sure that we had a lot of time to cover it all, because. This was like the first big event comic I remember as a kid was nightfall. And that's probably why I like John Paul Valley as much as I do. Because like I was around and reading when this was going on. Is like a Ben Riley situation? Yeah, I really, well, so yes and no.

I was not a super fan of John Paul Valley as Batman, but I am a big fan of John Paul Valley as real. Okay. So like I said, there's a lot that happens with John after this one. storyline ends. But do you want to go ahead and do John's movie count now, or do you want to do it for the next episode, because we're

going to be recording immediately after this? Why do we do it for the next step? Well, we can ask John what he wants to do, but like, if we're doing two episodes, it makes sense to do it on the second one, right? I'm easy either way, to be honest. I don't mind. You can do the real one this time and then make up one for next week.

Yeah. Perfect. Okay. So John, how many movies have you watched so far? I am now up to 520. Jesus. That's a jump from last time, I think. I think it was like $4.95 or something last time.

Did you just have a lot of free time? Well, yeah, it was a bank holiday last weekend, so... Yeah. Yeah. What was the last film? The last movie I saw was fanboys, which is that one about like

Is that the guys breaking into Skywalker Ranch? Yeah, yeah. Which I remember being quite funny, and then I watched it and it was like, oh, wait a minute. This is just making really super obvious references to Star Wars and

they're dropping a lot of gay jokes and insults and stuff and it's like, hmm. This doesn't age well. Yeah. It's only 15 years old. Yeah, it's a big, it's a larger gap than you think. That's what people forget, like 15 years, like, you know, on social media and stuff.

You know, you see people who say stuff 10, 15 years ago where no, it's problematic. Like, that doesn't seem like that long ago, but like things change. Yeah. That was like, that was a period of time during COVID where it seemed like nobody had anything better to do than like this person I got to a disagreement on Twitter. I'm going to search their Twitter going back to 2020. to see if they said anything fucked up. And they absolutely did. Oh, absolutely, almost every single time.

100%. So I remember the documentary slash true story of that was much better than the movie. I don't think I've seen that. Oh, yeah, yeah. It is based on a true story, but it is a lot more sentimental and heartwarming than the movie. Because if I'm not mistaken, the reason that in the, The real story is one of the guys has cancer and is going to die before the movie comes out. And this is like dying wish kind of motivation for them.

Yes, that's the same in the movie. Oh, really? I thought they completely remove that. Well, they underplay it for a lot of the movie. And the guy at no point looks or acts sick as well. So it's kind of easily forgotten about. But then they sort of tie in at the very end, which is, yeah, it's a weird choice. It feels unjustified.

Like, it feels like you didn't earn that sentimental moment. Exactly. Especially not with all the gay jokes and whatnot. Well, if you want to hear John's opinions on movies that also have gay jokes in them, I'm sure. John, where can they find you on Letterbox? They can find me at Big John Bowsky, all one. And Dylan, what's going on in the world of exploiting, please? Well, I'm glad you asked that, Corey, as I am every week.

We're still pretty much where it's been in terms of I haven't got any episodes uploaded yet, but I have actually been recording new episodes. Every time you ask me this, I am recording new episodes. So I have them. I just have, I want to wait until I'm across. not I'm across it and Pickman is pretty much

finished like I said I reckon there's about 30 episodes of Pickman to go that I can do and I want to record as many as I can before I start putting them up

and I at the moment I think I'm on episode 22 I think it's 22 or 23 so we're getting pretty close to a release to it I'll say

because I might start adding them and putting them up soon because if I'm at 20 already if I put three up a week you know, I'm already like a month and a half, two months in business. Nice.

So I would say by the time this episode goes up, and I know I've said this many episodes ago, but probably, because this will probably go up mid-September. Yes. There should be some action on the channel. So check it out, ExplodityPlays at YouTube.com forward slash dot com slash expletableys. And you can also find my other podcast, a large old cup, which is a stream of consciousness podcast where we just ramble sometimes about nothing for about 28, 29 minutes. And we call it a day.

Get in, get out, and try not to embarrass yourself. But it happens anyway. It does happen quite frequently. Every now and then I'll end an episode and go, God damn it. The way it goes, man. Is this what happens? Certainly does. Well, folks, if you are listening to this on Spotify,

check us on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, check us on Spotify. We're the Smart Avengers. We talk about comics and comic-related things. And this is it. Bye. Bye.

Bye-bye. See you next week for Part 2 of Batman Nightfall. Please. Please come back.