The Smark Avengers - Vol 4, Ep 3: The Smark Avengers! (Minus One) Talk More Marvel Cinematic Universe

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Daredevil has been Born Again, it's a Brave New World for Captain America, and the Thunderbolts are going head to head with Sentry by the looks of it. Dylan didn't make it today so it's up to Corey and Jon to discuss the going's on as the Smark Avengers (minus one) talk more Marvel Cinematic Universe.

My experience with some of these things are not great. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Smart Avengers. My name is Corey. With me is John. Dylan is absent. I think he's drunk. Yeah, I think he's out drinking.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not on Instagram anymore, but I heard that his Instagram story was like him acknowledging the fact that he's getting drunk on a Thursday. Yeah, but don't tell the boys, though. Don't tell the lads. the lads um so yeah it's just the two of us and today uh we're going to talk about some upcoming marvel stuff and some marvel stuff it's already happened uh john you're going to be kind of the point person on these things i'm only going to be able to give some in some insight but what would you prefer to talk about first we had captain america brave new world that came out a little bit ago

we've got more trailers for the Thunderbolts that has made its way out there. And we also have coming very soon Daredevil Born Again. You have a preference. Indeed. I mean, maybe kick off with some Daredevil, I guess. Okay. So Daredevil was one of the Netflix shows that came out a few years ago, probably almost a decade ago, right?

Yeah, 2015 it debuted. Jesus Christ. Yep, I was like, man, that just came out 10 years ago. So Daredevil, it was the original block of these Netflix shows. It was Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Punisher, and Luke Cage, an Iron Fist. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure they would love to forget Iron Fist. That was like the one of them that really flopped hard.

And then they did a defense. Vinders show, right? Mm-hmm. Came between, I think, the second and third season of Daredevil. No, it's interesting you say that, because wasn't Daredevil the only one that had multiple seasons? No, no. I think they pretty much or at least got two seasons, but... Even Iron Fist?

Even Iron Fist. Holy hell. It was only Daredevil and Jessica Jones that got three seasons, so... Fair enough. So, I watched the first. first season of Daredevil. Mm-hmm. And Charlie Cox immediately stood out as perfect.

Yes. Great. Think of Daredevil. Yeah, he was amazing. And of course, you know, this is coming off the, you know, the last time anybody in the mainstream world heard anything about Daredevil, it was the Ben Affleck-led Daredevil. Yeah, which I think has an unfair bad reputation. because the, I guess, like, the theatrical cut was pretty garbage, but the extended edition

where, like, they kind of show more of Matt Murdoch as a lawyer as well as Matt Murdoch as Daredevil, and it kind of, you know, it kind of shows both sides of the character. That definitely was a massive improvement. And it's part of, you know, what makes the Netflix series work so well as well is because it's not just, you know, Matt Murdoch fighting crime as Daredevil, but we get to see him fighting crime as Matt Murdoch as well, like a, you know, a lawyer. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that those were the scenes that really stood out the most to me were the scenes in the courtroom because it was really well done. And it also like really set Daredevil away from a lot of the other stuff that was going on. Because I mean, like, Agents of Shield was on TV. And I think Agent Carter was on, if not around that same time period.

Yeah. The Netflix shows stood out because, I mean, those were on ABC. So that was on basic cable for the most part. But Daredevil being on Netflix, they really got to do a lot more with it. Oh, yeah. In tone, in language, in violence. I mean it kind of

yeah it that part of it sort of you know made it feel like it wasn't quite connected with everything else going on because you know agents of shield still had that same sort of MCU tone

about it where there's lots of jokes and stuff and but yeah Daredevil was it was ostensibly like spinning off from Avengers and the attack on New York and stuff, but it was only ever... They never said it outright.

No, there was like... I got it in a New York incident, if I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd see, like, newspaper articles on the war and stuff like that, but no one was, like, talking about it or referring to that time that all those aliens started smashing the place up. Wasn't that fucking weird? Anyway, here's Vincent's Bonafrio.

Yeah. As the most like down-to-earth fucking villain, I think I've ever seen in a movie or a show. Yeah. So grounded. Great casting. Like, they just absolutely nailed it with him. And he, to be fair, he got the chance to kind of really delve into the character as well. Like he wasn't just a one-dimensional villain.

Like Michael Clark Duncan? Exactly. There's like, I think. think pretty much a whole episode was dedicated to sort of establishing his past as like, you know, growing up in a poor family, whereas his dad was like a miserable drunk or whatever and was like beating his mum. And then, you know, it got to the point where Wilson Fisk snapped and beat his dad to death with a hammer. And that sort of set him on his path to kind of, yeah,

becoming the kingpin. I know we were talking about Charlie Cox, but let's talk about Vincent Dinoffrio for a moment. Like I said, I didn't watch nearly as much Daredevil as you, but I feel like that almost makes it a testament to how well he did in the role. I mean, this was, he was

a very three-dimensional character. I mean, his romance with Vanessa was so well done. Oh, yeah. Like, he was likable. Yeah, yeah. And then like, and then he'd snap and you'd see that rage and you'd be like, yep, okay, that's the villain.

But yeah, no, I mean, the scene where, like, when they first meet each other in the art gallery is really, really well done. And then they have that dinner together and it gets ruined by the Russian gangster who thinks he's doing the right thing by coming to Wilson Fiskin person and apologizing and realizing he actually just made the biggest fucking mistake ever. Yep. gets his head carved in with a goddamn car door, dear God.

That was like that scene and the scene where that hitman assassin character like impales his own head on a jagged pipe to get out of like having to potentially deal with pissing off the kingpin. Boy, oh boy, that sets the tone for that show. Absolutely. Like I say, completely unlike anything else in terms of what Marvel was producing at the time. I think if you

To do it look like We're going to talk about Thunderbolts but like Just a juxtaposition about like how The Netflix stuff and the Marvel stuff handled stuff Violence and Daredevil was like really grounded and really gritty and really down to earth And when they showed a little bit of that

In the Winter Soldier Falcon show where John Walker basically decapitates a dude with the Captain America shield It's like grisly and it's enough to like like cost him like his life as Captain America but like I mean Daredevil I the one scene that stuck with me in Daredevil was the hallway scene that hallway fight scene yeah they did a few of them in the end but that first one that first one oh yeah so nothing like a good one take fight scene absolutely so is there anything else that like to say

about that you want to talk about with Vincent Dinoffrio? Like, so there are three seasons of Daredevil. I only really saw the first one. What's going on in seasons two and three? Well, at the end of the first season, he's basically arrested and sent to prison. Season two, he's not in it as much because season two is, like the first half of season two is about introducing the Punisher. and the second half is introducing Electra. So, yeah, we don't really see Wilson Fisk

until Punisher basically, after killing loads of criminals and having all these sort of philosophical discussions with Daredevil about, you know, how best to approach these criminals and stuff. Traditional Punisher talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He sort of willingly gets arrested and then gets put on trial, willingly tanks his own trial as well, while, you know, Nelson and Murdoch are trying their best to defend him, or so he could get sent to prison and end up in the same prison as Wilson Fisk,

who he kind of approaches and finds out, you know, who was responsible for, basically the murder of his wife and kids. And so, you know, he kills that person who's in the prison as well, which opens a door for... Yeah, Kingpin to basically take over the prison. And then Kingpin orchestrates a way for Punisher to escape as well, so he doesn't stick around and kill him too. And then, yeah, I think there's like...

One scene in that whole series where Matt Murdoch, or maybe it was under his Daredevil guys, um, like speaks to Wilson Fisk, but that's it for that season. But season three is where he comes back into it again, where he turns into a FBI informant. Um,

and then that's basically a bargaining chip to get him out of prison into like a penthouse suite where, he's, you know, effectively under house arrest, but he's got a lot more freedom. And he starts manipulating things to kind of retake power. And he discovers Matt Murdoch is Daredevil as well in that season. And so he goes all in trying to kind of frame Matt Murdoch. Or, well, first he tries to frame Daredevil by having him like, like impersonated by like a psychotic FBI agent

called Benjamin Poindes, point desk, yeah, Poindester, aka, yes. Who is that, right? Yeah. You know it's Lester, who is the name you usually used? Well, yeah, I think in the comics he hasn't had. He's ever revealed his actual name. Yeah, it's been a bit, yeah, like, shaded over.

I was it going to ask, do they ever introduce Bullseye considering how important Bullseye is to the lore? Yeah, but he's never called Bullseye, and he doesn't actually dom like a Bullseye costume. But they do follow, like, a similar sort of path to the comic books where there's like a fight in the church and Karen is his target, but unlike in the comics,

he doesn't kill her in this one. Like Daredevil saves the day. So, oh, keep going, sorry. But yeah, basically, the way that season ends, there's like a big three-way fight between King Ping, Bullseye, and Daredevil, where Bullseye gets his bat broken by King Ping.

and he's like pretty much the last scene of the entire series was him like going into surgery to get it repaired so he could come back okay so that is where we last left Daredevil in the Netflix era because one of those things that was it Disney Plus

that officially kind of killed the Netflix shows not really no I think it was more case of yeah like I'm not sure if viewership played into it because you can never tell with Netflix but like the production costs and everything

I think they just kind of realize that you know they couldn't keep it going on indefinitely so Jeff Lobe was in charge of the Netflix Marvel stuff yeah in charge of Marvel

TV as a whole back then Yeah, and then they've folded all of that under Fiki. Yeah, yeah. Basically, yeah, like, Marvel were just waiting for the rights to revert back to them. I think it was like a period of about four or five years. They had to wait until they could start using the characters again,

which is why, you know, Daredevil didn't show up in the MCU until... She had little. Well, it was, I think. Did you show up to some of the first? Spider-Man, No Way Home, I think, was his first return. Oh, that's because he shows it was Matt Murdoch in that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does I remember that was a big deal?

Yeah, and then he showed up in Sheehawk and also in Echo, I think. I totally forgot Echo was the thing. Yeah, I think most people had. have. It wasn't a bad show by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, it was just, it was just there. Like a lot of the Marvel TV shows, and to be there, some of the movies as well, there wasn't a whole lot to it.

Yeah. So I remember that was like a big deal because when they got the rights back to Netflix, a lot of people were petitioning for Charlie Cox to continue as Daredevil. Mm-hmm. And I think he was like the only, I don't remember anybody doing anything like that for like Luke Cage or Jessica Jones or anything. Maybe Punisher. Yeah. I would say probably Punisher and maybe Jessica Jones as well because I think that series, especially the first season of it, gets a lot of love.

And deservedly so. That was a, you know, really good introduction and adaption to like a big storyline from the comics as well. I mean, ultimately, how on earth, you know, they managed to put the purple man in a show without making the purple man purple. Yeah. Good job on that, you know. Mm-hmm. I remember I saw someone that was like, man, what a waste of David Tennant. I'm like, what the fuck did you want him to do?

Yeah. Like, I'm not buying David Tenet playing like any other Marvel character just because of his sheer size and age at this point. Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, he was like a really creepy. version of the Purple Man. So what are you complaining about? Yeah. A bunch of

Doctor Who fans. Yeah. They can't let go. They can't let go of David Tennant as the doctor. Boy, I was about to say, like, then Matt Smith showed up in Morbius. You're not having a good run of doctors

showing up in MCU. Well, yeah, and Crystal Lachistan was... Yeah, he was the first of. villain he's malcheth. Yep, there you go. Maliketh. So he was Maliketh in Thor the Dark World.

And then Peter Kobaldi showed up as the thinker, I think was his character name in Suicide Squad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're just waiting for Jody Whitaker now, which he can turn it up in. It's long overdue showing up in something.

Yeah, very true. I feel like, well, we won't get into a Doctor Who conversation. I don't know if you personally even care about Doctor Who? I mean, I watched it loads as a kid when it was on in the, like, 80s and stuff. Yeah. I just sort of got into it late when it revived and then sort of fell out of it as well. That's normal.

I know a lot of people who are fans of it kind of fell off after Matt Smith or during Matt Smith. But we're not here to talk about Doctor Who. We're here to talk about Daredevil. So we get a snippet. We get a tease of Charlie Cox's Matt Murdoch in one of the Spider-Man movies. He shows up as Daredevil in the yellow and red costume, which was really surprising in She-Hulk. Yeah. So now we have Born Again.

We get Matt Murdoch in one of the Spider-Man movies. We get the yellow and red costume in She-Hulk. Any comments on the yellow and red costume? I mean, it felt a bit weird, but then like that whole cameo. in She-Hulk felt a bit weird. Like there was a big disconnect between that and

you know, Daredevil from the Netflix series. It was a lot more lighthearted, a lot more jokey. But then I think that is sort of what Marvel were originally planning to do when they were looking to

reintroduce the character was to not necessarily tie it down to the Netflix. series but basically do like a reboot and keep Charlie Cox and Vincent Donofrio. Because I was about to say Vincent Donofria coming back as kingpin, which now makes you wonder if you're going to get Vincent Donofria's kingpin and Spider-Man. Well, yeah, he's been popping up in other places.

Like he was in the Hawkeye mini series and he was in Echo as well, like a big part in that. So it feels like, you know, he's spreading his reach. a little bit and encountering all these other characters. But so far it's just mostly, well, almost entirely being kept to like TV series rather than movies. But I'm sure with an actor of his caliber

and like a character as popular as his kingpin is, I would not be surprised if he starts getting more involved in the movie side of things. Do you think so? Because like so far, a lot of the villains that have been in the Marvel movies have all been like really power heavy or characters

like a lot of like with a lot of gravitas to them like I mean even Ant Man with Yellowjacket it was also somebody that could shrink small with Iron Man it was always somebody in an equivalent suit of like a similar intellect Yeah yeah I don't think they've had like a ground level villain Except for it well Vulture I suppose

I was going to say as well to bring it around to Captain America Brave New World like the villain in that is the leader basically and he poses no physical threat whatsoever to anybody

you got a big old head yeah and even I think it's sidewinder that Giancarlo Esposito yeah he's just

a regular guy he's like a you know, he is a soldier who's an expert at killing people, but he's still just a regular guy. Yeah, yeah, basically. No special powers or anything. So, I mean, yeah, there are some

villains who've kind of crept in who don't have that like big power set or whatever. Do you think that Marvel could use like a, like the kingpin as a big bad? Like somebody whose deal is like

a lot of money and influence yeah it's the kind of character that you know there's surely a place for I mean especially with the you know the announcement of a new Spider-Man movie they've gone really big

in terms of like the stories and stuff that they've told like well like the last one at least anyway with the whole multiversal thing but if they they, you know, bring it back down to a more grounded level, like the first movie was, especially. Then Kingpin is a great villain to bring into that situation.

True, true, true. So we, what do we know about the plot of Born Again? So, like, when I think of Daredevil, I think of two runs in particular, and that have completely separate tones. So of course, Frank Miller and the exploration of Catholic guilt and let's put, let's put Mark, not Mark, but Matt Murdoch through the absolute ringer of conflict and pain and suffering. And then on the opposite end of that, it's probably not as an iconic run as like he would say like a Bendis, but like Mark Wade, when Mark Wade was like bringing Daredebel back in the 2010s, it was a lot more lighthearted and more focusing on a swashbuckler with like the underlying thing. of Matt's ignoring his problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He has a lot of problems and he's just going to ignore them. So do we know based off of what we've seen so far, like what the tone's going to be like? Because, I mean, this is going to be Matt Murdoch in the MCU proper. Well, I mean, there's been a few sort of details revealed in interviews with the actors and stuff. And the trailers themselves kind of paint a picture of this very much being a continuation of the tone and feel of, you know, the Netflix series where it's a bit darker than your average MCU, like, movie or spin-off. But like it sounds as if like the basic starting point of where we find the series when it begins is Matt has basically given up being. Daredevil for about a year for some reason that we don't know to begin with, which I guess will be revealed. Wilson Fisk gets out of prison and he is, as we saw at the end of Echo, he's basically decided he wants to be mayor of New York to kind of, you know, take power that way.

But, you know, that's, again, that's another storyline that they've taken from the comics. But then, yeah, all we really know is some of the characters who are going to appear in it again, like, you know. Did they get foggy? Yeah, yeah. Foggy and Karen Page are both back after they were, they originally weren't going to be in it. But after, you know, they started production and then the writer's strike hit and they started like going back and reviewing what they, you know, done so far. They kind of realized, oh, hang on, this isn't working the way we thought it was. And that's when they sort of course corrected and started tying it back into the Netflix series again.

Yeah. I mean, those two characters are very big for his backstory and for his supporting cast. Oh yeah. They rarely ground them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you said having that history as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bullseye's back.

They're introducing a couple of other, like, love interests from the comics as well. So Kirsten McDuffie is going to be a character in it. Heather Glenn is going to be a character in it. we've got the Punisher showing up at some point we've got Tony Dalton is basically playing Jack Duquins again the guy

what's this his like superhero name Swordsman who he appeared in the Hawkeye series was pretty good in that. But they're also going to have the character Muse as well

who's like a serial killer that was introduced in the comics about five years ago who's like sort of sort of like an artist who creates art through killing people basically. So yeah there's some

connective tissue to the Netflix series and the cast from that but they're also bringing in new faces as well Fair enough So what are your hopes for Daredevil Born again?

Well, you know just that we can sort of maintain the pretty high quality of the original series because I mean that first season especially was really good in establishing who Matt Murdoch on Daredevil is and his supporting cast and the antagonistic relationship with Kingpin and everything.

And then, you know, the second season was a bit of a mixed bag because, you know, they were trying to juggle a lot of balls by introducing Punisher and Elektra and the hand and then sort of setting up for the defenders as well like there was a lot going on there whereas the third season was a bit better it was more sort of bringing it back into focus by having kingpin as the villain again and introducing bulls-eye so like you know there's a lot of history there that you know is there to be played on and like a lot of unfinished business as well like they always planned for a fourth season on Netflix like the creative team but then obviously Netflix pulled the plug and it never came to be so it's good that the you know we've got this second chance now to kind of not finish out the story because they've already announced like a second season of this new version of Daredevil and I think it's just started production as well so it's definitely going ahead But, you know, it feels like there's stuff to build on with this.

So I guess this probably should have asked you this question first, but a big Daredevil reader. Where would you rank in your like your pantheon of characters that you like to read? Oh, very near the top. Really? I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's it about Daredevil that appeals to you? Well, like, I first got into reading Daredevil when I bought the, the Frank Miller run and I you know I really fell in love with those comics and yeah so I just

started like collecting from there as well like there was you know born again the series that he did later on with Karen Page coming back into it and then like a lot of modern day I say modern day. This was like 25 years ago now but like that was all spinning off from like those same events. Um like Kevin Smith had his run and that led into Brian Michael Bendis. Um and yeah like all of it like I've I've always kind of been drawn to that kind of ground level type heroics. Um but like a much darker tone than you'd get in, like, a Spider-Man comic, for example. So, yeah, and it's always been interesting, like, the relationship with Kingpin, and then the way, like, the various writers, yeah, fuck with Matt Murdoch as well, like, you know,

sending up the impression. Probably the most tortured, probably the most tortured, like, Marvel comics character. People talk about how, like, Spider-Man gets dicked around. nothing like Burdock No, definitely not So yeah I think I've actually pretty much got

almost all of the entire run of Daredevil collected in trade paperbacks now I think I'm missing basically about 50 issues out of something like what is it?

Good. A lot. 678 or something like that that are collected us. So, John, in that, I mean, it sounds like they're going about it the right way with continuing on what they build Netflix, which was really surprising. Because Disney is very big on, let's tear this up and do our own thing a lot of the time when it comes to acquiring these other properties. Like, I mean, just look at what they did with Predator and what they've done with Alien and what they've done with, like, Star Wars. Yeah, yeah.

So that's really cool that they are going to continue on with the, Netflix run by the sound of it. So we mentioned, we talked a little bit about Captain America. You have seen Captain America Brave New World at this point when this episode makes it out. Captain America, Brave New World would have been out for like a month.

Yeah. So first off, what were your thoughts going into this movie? You know, I was eager to see like what they do with like a new Captain America.

because I think Anthony Mackey is really great in the MCU like he especially like I wasn't a huge fan of the Falcon and Winter Soldier series but like he was great in that as well

like the sort of push and pull between should he take the super soldier formula and like sort of level up to be on everyone else's level or could he do it just as like a regular guy? And that sort of carries over into Brave New World as well where he's still, you know,

kind of wrestling with that decision. But he's holding his own. And he's confident in like his abilities and his positions. Captain America and that's kind of cool to see like going into it like that you know he is basically a fully formed Captain America when we find him um but yeah like the whole promise of it like the trailers and stuff made a big show of you know the Red Hulk being involved and all that kind of thing that kind of was disappointing in the end yeah i i saw someone say that like they pretty much showed the entire red hulk stuff in the trailers yeah basically and i don't think they resolved it

very well in the movie either like it was just it was basically it felt like it was done to kind of a justify bringing in Harrison Ford to keep playing this role that, you know, William Hurt had originally played before he passed away. And B, it was just like, oh, we need something big because, like we were saying, like, you know, the leader is just a regular guy and Sidewinder is just a regular guy. There was no sort of big superhero kind of clash in the movie. So I guess that's why, you know, Red Hulk ended up playing a prominent role in those, like, closing moments, really. Well, the Captain America movies for the most part, I mean, so Captain Eric Civil War was all about the fight with Iron Man.

And the first movie, there was the, you know, Red Skull, which they kind of made out to be an equivalent to him power-wise. but like winter soldier didn't really have a big supervillain fight no i mean kind of cap and bucky i guess a little bit but even then a little bit yeah bucky's just to do with a robot arm yeah and it was i guess the biggest states there were trying to stop all the helic carriers from you know like destroying all the uh prime targets whatever it was. I can't remember now. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gary Shandling was there. He was a member of Hydra. It was weird.

Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, this one kind of, like, it does feel like it was worth the effort, but it at the same time doesn't feel like there was a lot to kind of you know, remember after the fact. Yeah.

I remember. I think the cruelest review I saw did just say like Captain America, Brave New World is neither brave nor a new world. I felt like an old Sire Night Live skit with Mike Myers as the old woman from New York for coffee talk. Yeah, no, I remember a lot of what was seen about this. This movie had rewrites, did it not? Yes, basically, a similar situation to Dead Devil where, you know, they sort of saw it wasn't working the way they wanted it to.

And a lot of it was, by the sounds of it, kind of done on the fly as well. You know, we're wrestling fans. We know Seth Rowlands of the WWE was originally supposed to have a role in this film scenes, like fight scenes. up against Captain America, those scenes got cut and there is no hint that he removed. Yeah. Well, because I remember what I saw was like it looked like it was going to be Captain America versus the Serpent Society, which makes Sidewinder an obvious reason why he's in that movie. Because the Serpent Society gimmick is that everybody in it is like snake based.

Which if you want to kind of take it as like a natural conclusion from Hydra, I mean, you could very well have made a story of like, these are all former members of Hydra kind of banding together going after Captain America, except, you know, that guy's now gone and old. And the guy who used to be Falcon is now Captain America. So, so yeah, it doesn't sound like it was maybe a movie that due to some meddling, it got a little less cohesive. But like, so we talked about like Red Hulk and Sidewinder and stuff. But like, how did Mackie do in the role? like what was the Sam Wilson motivation like or the theme of the movie? So yeah, like I say like a lot of it is to do with him not being like superpowered.

But it's also playing up on like the history between Sam and Thaddeus Ross as well because, you know, in the earlier movies he got a red. and ended up in the raft. And it was, you know, Ross who basically put him there. So the fact that, you know, Ross is now president and Sam is basically working for him. Like, you know, that brings up a lot of tension between the two characters, especially as like Ross is originally like trying to turn over a new leaf and, you know, a better man and stuff, but then circumstances force him to kind of start losing his temper and, you know, falling into some of his bad habits, which obviously rubs up against Sam and

causes a lot of the, uh, the drama between him. So every now and then I like to think of like, how would the MC you have been if, uh, Ed Norton had stayed as the Hulk? And, uh, part of he thinks that, I don't know, know, I would have enjoyed the Hulk more. I didn't really care for Mark Rufelow. So, like, when I... Yeah, I didn't care for him at all. See, I guess my thing is I thought he was too, like,

charming to be Bruce Braynor. And Ed Norton is just enough, like, kind of awkward and up his own ass that I could buy him as Bruce Banner. Yeah, I get what you're saying, actually. Yeah, because it's more in the MCU mold where he's, like you say, he's charming, he's funny, and he's more, yeah, I don't know.

Well, so case and point, you know, because we talked about She-Hulk earlier with Daredevil, the scenes where he's, like, trying to teach Jennifer, like, how to use her powers and control her strength and stuff, I don't see Ed Norton having that scene. Oh, God, no. No. Same as, like, that Hulk, uh, Ruffalo's Hulk in, you know,

Thor, Ragnarok as well. I could not picture Ed. I couldn't imagine Ed Norton and Tyco Watiti being in the same fucking room. So like, so I mean that's kind of an excellent point. Hulk was a lot more of a grounded character than because I mean they also, I mean, Emil,

you know, Tim Roth's abomination showed up in She Hulk as well. So I guess kind of what my point on that was it does feel really kind of bombastic and it is so strange because between Thunderbolt Ross and also the leader with the

Tim Blake Nelson who was in the Ed Norton Hulk movie, it felt like such an odd thing to continue on this movie that is almost 20 years old. Yeah, yeah. When the main character isn't in the movie whatsoever, you know,

hasn't been in the Hulk movies or playing the Hulk whatsoever. And also like, has Liff Tyler been in anything? MCU related? Like, because she's, you know, Betty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she doesn't really play a huge role in this.

She's more of an off-screen, like, oh, whoa, is me. Like, Thaddeus Ross is, like, it will be up because he's, he wants to contact his daughter, but she doesn't want anything to do with him. So it's like this big thing that, you know, I guess it's supposed to make you feel sympathy for him. And, yeah, you know the character you know better than to feel sympathy for him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so she only really like not, oh, it's too late now. We already are and spoiler territory.

The movie's a month old at this point. Yeah, if you are. This episode comes out, it's a month old. So, yeah, she only shows up it and, like, the last five minutes or something. So it's not like a huge role or anything. So it's not even like I said, it doesn't feel like based off just that information,

it feels like it's more of a sequel to the Ed Norton Incredible Hulk movie than it has to do with Captain America. Yeah, pretty much. So it's like, so he didn't even really get to be the star in his own movie in a sense? It's a weird mishmash of things. like he you know

it's the same with a lot of MCU movies where it feels like it's just moving pieces around the board for what's coming up in the future yeah it's like Bucky shows up at one point and like sort of offhand mentions how he's running for Congress

which I guess is going to be a big part of Thunderbolts yeah but it's like Like, okay, where's that come from? Why would he be doing that? Yeah, why would Bucky be running for Congress? I mean, like, that has everything I've ever read of James Buchanan Barnes in the comics

has always indicated that he's way more comfortable still in the shadows. So for that character to be like, yeah, I'm going to run for public office. What? What's your platform? What does Bucky Barnes feel about, like, Rovers is Wade? I mean, he's from the 1940s. His mindset's got to be something. Yeah, yeah.

So any other kind of comments you want to make about Captain America? Just on that subject as well, of like setting things up, they, like, a big part of the plot is to do with... Adamantium. Yes, setting up for a certain X-Man appearing at some point, I imagine.

So is it going to be like an origin movie? Because it made it sound like from what I saw that they had never been adamantium on Earth until they found this dead celestial in the ocean. Mm-hmm. So that would mean that like if Wolverine's going to be in it, they're going to have to speed run that part of his life if he's going to be in the X-Men, which I imagine if you're going to make an X-Men movie, you have to put Wolverine in it.

Yeah, but this sort of adds more credence to my theory of... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, when we get to Secret Wars and you start bringing in all these outside characters from like different movie iterations and stuff. Do you think it's going to be the Wolverine from the TVA from Deadpool and Wolverine? Yeah, I think.

think so. Because I saw like somebody pointed out like there's a scene of Channing Tatum's Gambit when he's like walking through like the battlefield and he looks behind him and you can see the reflection in his eyes like one of those Dr. Strange portals opening. Yeah. So yeah so you might not have seen the last of the Channing Tatum Gambit either. Yeah I mean I would be shocked if he doesn't appear in Secret Wars like a whole bunch of other car. as well. But I don't know if, you know, he'll still be Gambit in the MCU after Secret Wars, because I think the way that's going to play out is basically just almost doing

like a reset of the timeline and give them an opportunity to, like, recast characters. Yeah. Maybe like, you know, add some more history to the MCU as well. So mutants have been around for longer or whatever. Well, and Fantastic Four is. clearly going to be set in a different time period as well. So that would be their way of potentially bringing the Fantastic Four into the main MCU as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like

considering Marvel movies have been praised out for the last couple of years or so. Well, and considering it's been around for 20 years as well. Exactly. But like I guess all this sort of scene setting and kind of setting up future things is sort of putting in a more interesting position now, because the closer we get to Secret Wars and how that, like, affects everything going forward, I'm sure there's going to be more surprises popping up in all the other, like, projects coming up as well. Well, that's going to be a good segue. talking about the other project that's coming out soon is thunderbolts with an asterisk you mentioned we've

mentioned bucky bucky appear is going to be is one of the main characters in this i mean it based off of what i've seen in the trailer the main characters appear to be bucky and um white widow and then like the ancillary characters that will get some shine are going to be u.s agent and the guardian and then everybody else seems like fodder. Yeah. I mean, for lack of a better word. Somebody pointed out that, like, in the trailer, you only see Ghost and Taskmaster, like, a few times,

and they're in the same scene and they're like, that might be a sign that they don't make it through the whole thing. So totally, what we know about Thunderbolts is, this is a group that's organized of kind of characters who are either reformed villains or failures. Your reformed villains being, or not reformed villains, but like your villains being ghost, who was the villain of the Ant Man and Wasp movie. Taskmaster, who is the villain of the Black Widow movie. Are there any other villains?

Is it just the two? Technically, yeah. Like, I mean, you could argue, you know, John Walker was the villain of... Yeah, but I mean, he wasn't necessarily a villain. I mean, he wasn't, like, trying to take over the world or anything. He was a guy who got... He was a guy who got put in a role that he wasn't fit for. Yeah.

And, like, the trailer that you see there is, like, him with his kid and, like, seeing, like, articles written about him being a failure. Mm-hmm. So you've John Walker, U.S. Agent, who is, you know, one of the characters from Falcon No Winter Soldier, one of the antagonists. Yep. You have Red Guardian, who is also in Black Widow, played by David Haber. Harbor.

Yeah, Harbor, I believe. Harbor, okay. White Widow, who is also in Black Widow and also in Hawkeye. Yes. And Bucky, who's been in a bunch of other shit. Yeah. So these characters are all been assembled by Julia Lewis Dreyfus. Mm-hmm.

and they are part of a project Thunderbolt, I believe. I think it's what they're... Yeah, well, I think the name comes later. I'm not sure how it sort of fits together, to be honest, but... So the character she plays is usually tied to Dr. Doom, if I'm not mistaken? No, I thought she was a shield agent. that or no, I'm thinking

of someone else, aren't I? No, I thought she was like a shield agent who was always like romantically linked with Nick Fiori. Valentina, let's see, Valentina Allegra de Fontaine director of the CIA.

She's in Black Widow, Black Panther, Wakanda Forever in Thunderbolts. And also Falcon and Winter Soldier. Anyway, regardless, they are the group that's put together, and it sounds like they're on a suicide mission, not unlike the suicide squad. And the antagonist of this show looks to be The Century. So that's very interesting because the Century is a complicated character in Marvel. Because wasn't he like one of those.

characters is like, oh, they kind of retcon. The Sentry's always been around, but his powers made people forget that he was around. Yep. So Century is a little convoluted in that sense. He is their version of Superman, or one of their versions of Superman. There's been several Marvel Superman-esque characters.

And his whole gimmick is that for every good thing the Century does, the void, which is his alter ego, his other personality, does something horrific in return. So it seems like, like the pictures that we've seen has been the actor who's playing Bob, like in a, in a, like a sort of a patient smock.

And then I've been seeing like the most recent trailer, some very like dark things of like people in the city running and like a silhouette of someone flying. Yeah, yeah. They still haven't sort of outright shown. Yeah. You know, the final thing. But there's like, yeah, little hints here and there and the traders. whatnot. So, so yeah, totally it looks like it is more traditional MCU kind of humor. It looks like the

comedy is going to be from the Red Guardian. And it looks like his, it's looks from what I've seen the clash between him and US agent, who's more of the straight man character played by Wyatt Russell. Yeah. Who I'm absolutely a big fan of. And yeah, I mean, do you have have any thoughts about this because like Thunderbolts is a weird thing for me I mean the original Thunderbolts was the group of villains who secretly made up new identities to pose as heroes and then they fell in love with the idea of being or some of them fell in love with the idea of being heroes and reformed yeah and then the later you know later storylines had them as like Norman Osborne's black ops team the initiative you know the initiatives black ops team like

sort of made up of villains that were just outright villains. So in this, you don't necessarily have villains. You just have people who have dark pasts, like Winter Soldier and White Widow and such. So yeah, I mean, do you have any thoughts about Thunderbolt says we're seeing a little bit more than we saw when the last time we talked about it on the show? Well, I mean, yeah, like, I always came into the comic book series kind of late. Like, I've never read the original run. I sort of came in around the time of Civil War where... Where else?

Yeah, like, pretty much around the time where Norman Osborne ended up on the team. Which was, you know, quite attracted me to it, I guess. Yeah. But those storylines are really good, the initiative storylines. because like I always think of the when they paralyzed Jack Flag because they're like chasing him down because he's not registered and then Bullseye

slips the knife in between his vertebrae. Yeah, yeah. Fucking brutal. There's, it's not a lot like that in this new movie by the looks of it. No, it definitely looks like it's lighter. Yeah. Which, you know, I guess you sort of expect now

with the MCU. Yeah. It's got to appeal to a broad audience. Well, and then you get little things like Daredevil, which appears to be taking a little bit more of the Netflix tone, then you get Moon Knight. Moon Knight has some brutal fight scenes in it. Yeah.

Which I'd love to talk about Moon Knight at some point, because I'm still very confused about that show. I think they just recently announced that they definitely aren't doing a second. season of it, but... They are not doing a second season? Yeah, that's correct. But it sounds like the expectation

is that Moon Night will show up in something else at some point. Fair enough. I imagine Oscar Isaac is probably a difficult person to pin down these days. Yeah, I would have thought so. So, yeah, no, I hope-wise for Thunderbolts, I don't have a ton of expectations

for it. Like I said... It may be a good thing, though. like going in with no expectations. Yeah, I mean, I like a lot of the characters that are in it. I've been a big fan of Bucky since I got into Captain America. Like, and I've been reading Captain America since the, my favorite runs are the ones that went from the late 80s through the 90s. And then, but I mean, Breweraker and the balliest decision in comics

to not only bring back Bucky, but make him an enemy. Yeah, yeah. So I've been a big fan of Sebastian Stan in that role. I mentioned earlier, I like Wyatt Russell. John Walker is like one of my guilty pleasure characters. Even though like this is like one of those first instances where like the comic book version of John Walker and the show version of John Walker are so opposite of each other. Like John Walker in the show appears to be sympathetic. Like he deals with like a bit of an inferiority complex.

He's a family man, you know, like. He feels like he's let people down. And like John Walker in the comics is an asshole. He's like a notorious dick. So it is a very, very different take on the character. But yeah, I think we talked about it. We've talked about it a few times. Like, they really lucked into Florence Pugh.

Because you know, like, you know that she was not like high on anyone's radar when she was cast in that. Black Widow movie. No, I mean, I guess she was most famous for Midsummer at that point. Yeah. And she was brilliant in that as well, to be fair. Yeah, absolutely. So, like, you know, like they really lucked in. She was great in Little Women, which is not the first time I've talked about little women on the show. But no, she's been great in almost everything I've seen her. And like said, they've really lucked out because they got her probably, what? But because they were signing people, I think Sebastian Stansett, his contract was for nine movies. So you imagine, like, they got her for a long time.

Yeah, definitely. And unlike Scarlet Johansson, she's not afraid of doing a Russian accent. Biggest fucking pet peeve of the MCU was the reluctance of a Russian accent on the Russian spy. I mean, I guess you could say it might give the game away if she was speaking with a Russian accent. Well, yeah, when they introduced her as like Tony Stark's new assistant or whatever, I could buy that. Mm-hmm. Not expose it immediately. And Jifra go back and rewatch that introduction to that character where she like, it's a fucking head-sizzer's takeover on somebody.

Yeah, yeah. I always wonder who they got to do that. You know, it's like some low-level wrestler. Or it's a guy in a wig. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, is there anything? else that's coming up and I saw some stuff for Wonder Man recently which is still a surprise to me we're doing Wonder Man. Yeah, that is one that definitely seems like an odd choice.

But to be honest, I've not already seen anything about that considering I think it's been in production for a while. Although maybe not as long as Iron Heart, which just feels like it's been in production for years and years by now. I feel like Iron Heart is a mistake. I don't have expectations. So, okay, this is an article that Bleeding Cool just put out yesterday. Wonder Man is the best show no one's ever seen. Is that the title of it? Apparently, it's set for December, is released.

Okay. Eight episode series. It's a new flavor for Marvel. it's straight from the minds of these people I've never heard of. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things ever. I think it's the best show no one's ever seen. And yeah, they're just really hyping it. Hmm.

Who else is in this? Jesus Christ. Wonder Man stars, well, the main, I believe his name is Yaya Abdul Matine the second. Yep, yep. Do I believe he played Black Manta? He did indeed. Sir Ben Kingsley. He's back.

Nice. Loring Glazier, Demetrius, Gross, Ed Harris, which, Ed Harris, Josh Gad and Byron Bowers. So, yeah, no. It's interesting to me that they're doing Wonder Man. And I'm curious, like, what take they're going to do on him? Is he going to be, like, the scientist guy who failed his dad father's business by going to out Tony Stark or are they going to go the Hollywood route where he's the actor?

I mean, I thought they were going the Hollywood route, but like, I don't know. Like I say, I've not really picked up much information about this, considering it's, you know, been in the works for a while. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd assume as well if, you know, Ben Kingsley's going to be back in it. Like, his character is as an actor. Yeah, so maybe it is Hollywood adjacent. What are your feelings on that reveal years later for Iron Man 3 that the Mandarin is not Ben Kingsley?

It was just Guy Pearce. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was pretty funny. You know, like the Mandarin as a character is a bit dated. Yeah, that's exactly the word I was going to use. Incredibly dated. little racist, so I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I think to try and bring him in, especially as well with, like, the rings and stuff and, like, the origin for that, and, like, I don't know, it would have felt weird to kind of insert that into Iron Man's world at that point, I guess. I will say I did like the monologues he did

in the character as that terrorist, I thought like those were really well written and delivered. And then when you see him and he's got like a little like, what is it? What accent is that? It's not Cockney. I think it is sort of London based, but because I think he's an Arsenal support in that as well. And they're like a London team. How do you know that?

He's just paying attention in the background? I think so, yeah. Fair enough. sure I picked it up from somewhere. Fair enough. Yeah, so it's interesting they're going to bring him back. I mean, I've really liked what they did with Abomination when they brought him back. So, you know, that Shee Hulk show, a lot of people are still trying to figure out how they feel about that.

Yeah, I liked it. I thought it was like, you know, not a, breath of fresh air, but like it was something different. Like, yeah. I mean, that's a Shee Hulk comic though. Exactly. That's like it's very comics accurate. She Hulk was one of the original fourth wall breaking characters.

I mean, her most famous covers were like, buy my booker, I'm going to rip up all your X-Men comics. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. People got really weird negative about She-Hulk. And I just,

I have to assume it was just weird, sad, lonely men in the basement kind of situation. Yeah, I would assume so. Did you finish Agatha all along? Because I remember we talked a little bit about it while you were watching it. Yeah, yeah. What were your feelings on that? I mean, it felt like a long walk for a short drink of water.

But, like, again, it's more about, like, setting things up for the future than necessarily like telling a satisfying story in its own right like this was all about kind of the kid's identity and then like put in yeah yeah yeah and putting Agatha in like

a new place for when we see her next as well like I don't know I mean I've sport loads of other shit in this thing so I might as well say she basically dies in it. And, uh, but she's like, she comes back as a ghost. And she's like, sort of the way it ends is her, like, about to help Wiccan, like, go look for his brother, basically. Oh, they're going to do speed then. I believe. Oh, yeah. They, it's like a big part of the series was him, like, uh, wanting to look for his brother, basically. So I saw people hinting like they're like, oh, they could make a young Avengers because they have REE, they have Black Panther's little sister.

Because like that, well, that's a great topic to talk about. They seem now everything I've seen that they're open to recasting Black Panther now. Well, yeah, I think they probably should, to be fair. Yeah. I mean, I understand that he passed away, but it's a little bit like, I don't know. because we trying to say it without revealing the fact that we lost a fucking episode

so when Christopher Nolan did Batman Dark Night in Heath Ledger died months before the movie's release that was one of his deciding factors on why he changed the third movie so much because originally Joker was going to play a part in that third movie in the trilogy

but he didn't want to recast after Heath Ledger died not to say there were a lack of options for him because Nolan has a roster of people that are in a lot of his movies but he still did it out of respect so when they did Wakanda forever and Chadwick was not there obviously any longer they just didn't recast did they explain what happened to Chalha yeah he did actually die

in like the context of the MCEA as well so I think I can't remember what the explanation was, but he isn't around anymore. And his sister took over the mantle. Yeah. But it's revealed as well that he had a son who could potentially grow up to take on the mantle as well. But then you would have thought that would be many years in the future if that was. case. So the question, and so I have another question regarding Wakanda forever.

Mm-hmm. Do you think they drop the ball on Namor and the Atlanteans? No, I quite liked what they did there as well, because the trouble was sort of, like, Namor has a lot of similarities to Aquaman, just in the like general kind of like premise of the Atlantis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Except Namor can't talk to fish. because that's how Aquaman beat him in DC versus Marvel. That giant whale to land on top of Namor. Yeah. I mean, wow, who can argue with that?

But, like, yeah, so Aquaman, the movie came out before, you know, Wakanda Forever did. So they kind of beat them to the punch a little bit. So the fact that they mixed it up and changed like the origins of Atlanta, and stuff and gave it a different feel. Like, I quite enjoyed that. And I thought the guy who played him was pretty decent as well. Like, captured the arrogance of Namor. And, yeah.

I do like they made him, like, kind of Aztec. Mm-hmm. Like, I thought that was a good, that was a good use of, like, kind of taking a lot of that cultural symbology. Yeah, yeah. Designs. Absolutely. Yeah, no.

I was just curious because, like, I never heard anyone say. anything about Namor. After that movie and before, I remember when they first revealed what he looked like, people were like, huh. I think that was it. Didn't hear about him again. So, yeah. There seems to be

a lot of characters that they've introduced and then not done a whole lot with afterwards. Like there was the, at the end of the Eternals, there was a big deal. Yeah, introduced him. And it was like,

at the end of the last Doctor Strange movie as well where yeah yeah you know it's like you got Charlie's thrown to show up for two seconds just to do that and nothing

has happened since then so what was the point? I think that they won't ever really touch Eternals stuff again I think I think they hinted really I mean they hinted at Black Knight I don't know if they're going to even do anything with that Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like they hinted at Blade as well, and then obviously that's run into all sorts of... Yeah. So who knows if we'll ever see, like, a big screen blade. Do you think it... Well, we've seen a big screen blade. Thank you very much. Again. Not 30 years ago?

I was going to say, do you think that Wesley Snipes showing up for Deadpool Wolverine may have put a damper on that? Maybe. But I mean, that was more nostalgia than anything else. Like, I don't think Wesley Sykes could come back and do like another movie as played. I think he absolutely would if he asked him.

Oh, I think he would, but I don't think it would. It's a good idea. Yeah, I don't think it would work as well as it did back in the day. Yeah, I, you know, honestly, that was like one of those, that took off in such a way that I feel like people still haven't really acknowledged. Like those three Blade movies to think like, yeah, there were three Blade movies.

Like Blade was even a huge deal in the comics at that point. Yeah, yeah. Although the third one was garbage. But you don't like Triple H walking around with robot teeth and a dog? No, that's not for me. Maybe that would bring him back for a cameo. I know that damn That first movie

The The The blood rave People still talk about that blood rave Yeah It's iconic Great scene Mm-hmm

I think like you said We talked about it in our very first episode With Volume 3 About like The MCU Not reaching its heights That it once had I still don't know

If they're going to do that I think I really do think doomsday is going to be the test for that. I feel like people are optimistic about the Fantastic Four, but I mean, the Fantastic Four, and we're going to talk about it at some point, they've had

what, three, four failure movies. I wouldn't, well, I wouldn't call it two of them a failure, because one of them was successful enough they at least made a sequel. Exactly, yeah, yeah. But I don't think... It's not looked back on fondly, but...

No, that's the thing. I don't think they were critical successes, like, There wasn't a lot of people praising them, but a lot of people certainly saw that first Tim story one. But I'm sure we'll discuss all of that at some point. It's coming up at some point. I still think we should do a let's watch of the Roger Corman. It is on YouTube. We can make that happen.

I would 100% be up for that. I'd love to see Dylan, probably a very drunk Dylan react. Yeah. Well, speaking of Dylan, I would like to remind everyone that you can check out what he's into by probably via search Captain Exploity, because you'll find the YouTube channel that he has with all his game footage on that he did a while ago. But also his book on Amazon, was it The Adventures of Captain Exploity? Mm-hmm. I believe so. He's got a second book in the works.

Dylan is aiming at having 50 new short stories for it. So look out for that in the future. Again, go to Amazon, look for the Adventist Captain Explode. So, John, where are you looking at for your movie count for the year? I am now up to 182 movies. Very nice. Yes. Which are most recent?

It was a movie called The Darkest Hour, which was like an alien invasion movie with Emil Hirsch. It wasn't very good. Okay. Wasn't Emilie Hirsch? Wasn't he supposed to be like a big deal? I remember he was like a young up-and-comer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was in Speed Racer.

He was. The Wachowski's did that? Yep. And I think he was in Into the Wild as well, which was like, it may have even been nominated for like, you know, a few big awards and stuff. Yeah, he was also in that Lords of Dogtown, if I thought, if I remember correctly. A skateboarding movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think you're right there. That was the first time I heard his name anyway. So if you want to check out John's, you know, reviews on the works of Emil Hirsch. Then John, where can they find that? They can find it on letterboxed at Big John Bowsky or one word. Nice. One more point on Emil Hirsch.

I saw someone say that Austin Butler was the new Emil Hirsch. I'm with, don't you put that on him? Yeah. I like Austin Butler. I'm a fan of it. He's been around for a while as well. Like, it's only really just sort of... Starting to get up there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he's been around. As for me, I have my other show, Largill Cup. Didn't do an episode last week, but that doesn't matter because this episode's going to come out in a couple of weeks anyway. So maybe there is an episode earlier. Who knows? But you can check that out. It's called Largel Cup is a spoken word storytelling podcast. podcast, Speer stream of consciousness, a bunch of other S words. But until next time, I will see you guys later. Bye bye. Bye-bye. There it is.