The Smark Avengers - Vol 4, Ep 8: The OFFICIAL Smark Avenger Batman Villain Tier List—We Settled It Once and For All!

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

🔥 The OFFICIAL Batman Villain Tier List—We Settled It Once and For All! 🔥 After two episodes of Marvel fans roasting Batman’s villains, it’s time for a DC fan to fight back! In this explosive final tier list showdown, Corey—the lone Batman expert on the panel—joins the debate to help create the OFFICIAL Smark Avengers Batman Villain Tier List. But can he undo the damage caused by Jon and Dylan’s hot takes? Or will Gotham’s greatest villains be disrespected forever? 🃏 Who Ends Up in S-Tier? Who Gets DEMOTED? ✅ Joker, Bane, Riddler, and more—do they deserve their rankings? ✅ Which villains get a REDEMPTION ARC thanks to Corey? ✅ Who gets sent straight to F-Tier with NO debate? ✅ Will Marvel and DC fans EVER agree on anything? This episode is full of chaos, heated arguments, and controversial opinions, making it the most intense Batman tier list yet! Buckle up, because things get personal in this battle of Marvel vs. DC fandoms! 💬 COMMENT BELOW: Did we get it right? What’s YOUR Batman villain tier list? 🔔 LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for more comic book debates, tier lists, and absolute chaos! #Batman #BatmanVillains #TierList #DCComics #Joker #Bane #Riddler #Penguin #ComicBookDebates #MarvelVsDC #SmarkAvengers #Supervillains #HotTakes #ComicBookPodcast #Gotham #WhoWouldWin

Did that on his own. We don't want to know. He's a baby. It's not cool, guys. What are you doing? He'll grow into it at some point, but right now, let him be a baby. Leave him alone. Exactly.

A lot of experience the joys to be in a baby. Milk, all the other stuff. What else happened to your baby? You get a rattle, a pacifier. Passifier is a little difficult because it's got to get through the helmet. You get pushed around in a big stroller. Really dig. It carried in a papoose.

Can you carry baby jug on in that, though. It's true. We don't know the full, like, we don't know the, the, uh, the weight. The weight. Yeah, the physics. We don't, we haven't figured out of it yet. This is important stuff. We need to get a guy, a scientist on this. I imagine because baby juggernaut, uh, can't really walk anywhere, let alone run. He can't get any momentum going. So then you could, but he would still have like, uh, considerable amount of half to him. So like when baby jargonaut learns how to walk is the house just going to be full of craters where baby jargonaut stood up and then fell over. Yeah.

Yeah, quite possibly. Jeez. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Spark Avengers. My name is Corey. Yep. We're going to start with the physics of baby juggernaut. Where else would we start?

I'm going to end on that too. Yeah, we are. We'll bring it back around. Everybody welcome to Spark Avengers. My name is Corey. With me is Dylan and John. How's it going, guys? Hi.

Yeah, good. Yeah, good. Nice. So the last two episodes, we brought up a tier list, and John and Dylan, being more Marvel Spider-Man-based guys, put their opinions out there on where they think certain Batman villains rank in a tier list. So what I did is off camera because it would be not as entertaining for me to do it. I also put together my tier list and I figured that today we would make the official

Smart Avengers Batman villain tier list by kind of just going through it again and me reminding you guys. Exactly. Where are your results fall in? So are you ready for that? Yeah. So are we going to go like character by character and go John said this, don't sit this. this is Corey's vote?

Yes. And then we'll kind of figure out, like, do we all line up? And if we don't line up, like, can someone be persuaded to change the opinion? We will not all line up, and I will not be persuaded by a very certain character. I have a feeling. I have a feeling. But I will go ahead and start off by saying that, John, I didn't notice this when we did your episode, but I did notice it when we did Dillans. There is a feeling that is not included on the list.

and it is really glaring obvious after the fact. Mr. Freeze. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Should we really quickly put Mr. Freeze on both our lists? Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll just do that one here right now. So the tier list.

Did I already put Mr. Freeze on my list? I think we did because I brought it up that we didn't have Mr. Freeze the last week with John. Okay. He's on my list, so there you go. So, well, let me, let's go ahead and, Hashet John, on the S, A, B, C, D, F tier, where would you put, Mr. Freeze? I'm going to go for either A or B. I might go A.

Just because the, like, the portrayal in the animated series was pretty iconic. I'm a sucker for Arnold Schwarzenegger. Um, you know, yeah, that'll do me. John, Dylan, what did you put yours? I put Mr. Prez and I. See, that's where we're going to disagree. I would have him at B. Why?

I have him at B for the same reason I see him in that same area of like Archangel. Um, and because Mr. Freeze only has the one storyline and that is, uh, his wife. Oh. Mm-hmm. He's cold all the time, freezing. Uh, but no, no, he only has. has the one storyline with his wife and I cannot tell you any storylines that Mr. freeze had that did involve like trying to find a cure for his wife. What if he got divorced?

All right. That's what he's got. Again, why I'm putting him at B tier. It's what he's got. I can make stuff cold, you know? And, uh, it's a different storyline though. Yeah, but no, it's still, it's not really because he was only a bit part in it. It was like his part was, well, he could free stuff. It's kind of like in like it's not to do his wife though it's different. Well, no. So he's got two. We need somebody who could free some stuff and then we got his wife. That's it. And what do you want? Where do you want? Well, all right. Let's table. Let's table Mr. freeze. We'll go through our tier list and then we will, we'll revisit Mr. Freeze and we'll see like where he falls. So Corey, I imagine you put all these down. I'm writing these all down just for

for my own benefit. Well, I exported all of your list. So I'm going to have them up in front of me, but we're going to we're going to go and we're just going to pull up a blank list. Okay. So that's what you guys should be seeing about now, if I'm not mistaken. There it is. Yeah, there it is. All right. So like I said, we're going to go through the list. I'll introduce the villain and I'll let you guys know where we all stood on it and if we agreed, right? So first up on our list is man bat. John, you had man-bat listed in your D-tier. Mm-hmm. Dylan, you had man-bat listed in your D-tier.

Great minds. And I... Did I? You did? That's what I have them showing up as, bud. Oh, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you changed it at one point.

I did change, he was in C and I changed it, and I changed it to the D because he was dog shit. For dog shit. There you go. I actually... When I've made it, I put him in C tier. And I think just because I remembered a lot of, like, I remember the episode of the animated series where they introduced him sticking to me. But it's like, I am thinking about it now.

And in the Gotham Knights video game, like, you don't even really get introduced to Manbad because he's dead in the first, like, 10 minutes of the game. Deeper dead. Deeper dead. So a little. anticlimactic, but I will go ahead and agree with you that M anvap belongs firmly in D tier. But in your list, you keep it on C? I had him on C on mine.

So this is the Smart Avengers list. This is not my list, not your list, not John's List. This is our combined. What I mean is I've written a list of me and I'm keeping track of John's List and your list. So you can keep track of the Smart Avengers list. I want to keep a track of what we all want, what we all think. Perfect. So yeah.

So I had him on C, but in the Smart Avengers list. of interest list i have no problem with putting him down to d i didn't think that one was going to be a big controversial not really all right next up we have killer moth john you had killer moth listed in your f tier oh yeah dylan you had killer moth listed in your f tier no you got him an e i had him here all right you got him an e tier but we don't have only one i had an e tier all right well we don't have one officially so we'll bump him down to F. I'm not going to argue. And I have him also listed

in my F tier. So we all firmly agree that Killer Moth belongs in the F tier. Although if there wasn't E tier, he would go on that. All right. Speaking of killers, we have Killer Croc. So, John, you

had Killer Croc listed in your B tier. Dylan, you had Killer Croc listed in your B tier. And I had Killer Croc also listed in my B tier. So we all agreed Killer Croc in the B area. I think that's been a successful tier in ranking system. I think we could just call on the day here.

We're all on the same page. No one needs to delve any further. No, no. All right. So next up is Ray Shao Gould. John, you have Rayshall Gould listed in B tier. Dylan, you have Rayshall Gull listed in A tier. Yes.

And I have Rae Shal Goulist in A tier as well. So, John, you're the odd man out. I mean, I could kind of see why he'd be ranked in the A tier. Yeah, yeah. He's been around for centuries. He knows Batman's identity. He has an entire army of people fighting for him. Mm-hmm.

He's got a big car. Yeah, I'm sure he has a big car. Yeah. I mean, I will happily... bow to you guys and have him go in the A tier. Okay. So Richel's going up to A tier. All right.

Next up we have Bain. John, you have Bain listed in the A tier. Dylan, you have Bain listed in the A tier. And I have Bain listed in the S tier. Oh. So I stand out on that one. My argument for Bain being an S tier is simply put, the guy who broke Batman

put Batman out of commission for like a year. Not many other villains have been able to do that. Yeah, but what's he's done recently though? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's... He did kill... I mean, he did kill Alfred, which has had a long-running, you know,

consequence in the comic. Yeah, but it's been five years. We have an argument about this story. It's not a big deal to kill an old man. Is he an old man? Alfred? I mean, he's got to be pretty old. I mean, yeah, theoretically.

But I, you know, like I said, I put him an S tier for the simple fact that, like he said, he did something other people can't do and he took Batman off the board for a period of time. Okay. I mean, I think there's, like I said, remember, John, I don't know how you did it. But whenever I was doing it, I was ranking on like pro wrestler. So, like, you got your main event or you got your upper mid carters. Mm-hmm. B and is like your upper mid-carder.

He could slip in the main event every so often. but he's a reliable C of hand that's why he's like a tier because he's like bam right that's the bracket for him he's like the guy he won the world title like 10 years ago but he hasn't you know won it since then I'm just saying that like it's

you're making it sound like he's a guy who could main event a backlash and I'm telling you I think he could do he could probably do Survivor Series I could say Survivor series sure but not a Restmania well that's what I'm saying and for me then I will I will contend to

putting him in A then. If you're, because I will, because I will say that I think he's a bigger deal than like, he's certainly a bigger deal than like a killer crock. Yes. But I would put him on, you know,

I would put him above Raichael Gould. That's why you should have had Rayshout Gould in B. Got you there. Yeah, it certainly does. I mean, I'll, I will yield to that. I think S tier should be for like very,

a very limited. few and I think that looking at my list and yours I think I had more people in S tier than you guys did yeah I didn't have that many did I uh you had four it's four technically had three Dylan yeah John only had three I had four and you had four Dylan technically I had three I four are different yes you have technically you have three spoiler for later all right so next up we have Catwoman John, you have Catwoman ranked as A tier. Dylan, you have Catwoman ranked as a tier.

And I have Catwoman ranked at a tier. Good. Boom. Catwoman in A tier. Easy. So far, me and John have, like, agreed on, like, most of it. Yeah. Oh, but one.

And then nobody cares about that one anyway, so it's fine. All right. So next up is one. I know that it is going to cause some disagreements is dead shot. So, John, you have dead shot ranked in your C tier. Dylan, you have dead shot ranked in your D tier. And I have dead shot ranked in C tier as well.

So Dylan, you're the odd man out on this one. Yeah. So what is it going to take for me and John to convince you that dead shot is better than, who do we have better than man bad? Not a whole lot, honestly. Really? Wait, did you not have Manbat in C? No, no, we agree that Manbat was going in D.

No, Corey, did you not vote for Manbat in C? I did, but I yielded and put him down. So you said Deadshot was C as well. So you're saying Man Bad and Deadshot are in the same level. Yes, but now, but we've disagreed. I've yielded that I think that Manbat's not as impressive as I originally thought he was. But do you still put him in C in your? list. Yeah.

So you still think that deep dawn. That man bat's more impressive than... Equally as impressive. No, no, I put it, I yielded it and said, I can understand where you would look at Manbat and go, eh, he's not that important. I mean, he's just a giant, feral Batman, essentially. Yeah. But I would do think that Deadshot, in comparison, is a much more important villain because

of his legacy as a member of the Suicide Squad. Mm-hmm. I mean, I haven't seen the Suicide Squad. quad and you guys have. So honestly, I don't care enough about Deadshot to put him anywhere. You can put him in C. That's fine. Okay.

You can make an argument if you want. I'll pretend to listen to it. Sure. All right, well, we'll go ahead and just put him in seat here then. Not even going to make the argument. See, that's why he's not interesting. But you gave up. You gave up.

You couldn't even be bothered to fight for him. You're the one who gave up. I shouldn't have to. That would be like, Dylan, if you, if you curl up in the fetal position and I just kept hitting you in the face over and over again. What does that do for me? I give up. I give up because I don't care about dead shot. And you give up because you don't

care of a dead shot either. No, I gave up because I don't care about man bad. I think you don't care of both of them, really. No, I do like that shot. I just don't think he's a B-tier. He's higher than C-tier. It could be lower than C-tier. I don't think he is, though, lower than C-tier. I don't care enough to argue this.

I have to see my arguments for later. Yeah, it's coming. All right. Next up, we have Deathstroke the Terminator. John, you have Deathstroke listed in B tier. Dylan, you have Deathstroke listed in C tier. And I have Deathstroke listed in B tier as well. So this is another area where we disagree with Dylan.

So I will ask you again, Dylan, what is it about Deathstroke that you believe puts him on the same level as on your C tier list. You have, well, I don't want to say their names, but that would be spoiler, but less than Killer Croc, but higher than Manbat. Like, what is it about Death Struct to you is not equal tier with Killer Croc?

A lot of my list was based on, like, if I'd heard of them, that was a big thing. I know Killer Croc was in the TV show. He was a big deal. I've seen him in the comics. Like, I know Killer Croc is a thing. And some of the other guys on the list that I have, had death stroke on.

I had heard of as well. So I kind of ranked death stroke with them and that I've heard of them, but I didn't think that like they had potential, but they were never like, bam, bam, like, you know. But again, you know, the divisions could easily step up into the other tier above. Sure.

That's the thing. What happened with a lot of my tiering system was that a lot of the people would be able to logically slide into the tier above them. Very few of them were like sliding down into the one below it. It was normally ranking like, this guy's good. Could be great.

You know what you mean? Like could get a little bit better. Very few of them were like, this guy sucks, but also could easily suck more. That is very, very little a lot, you know? Yeah. So like I could, you know, I put him in C, but like I could see him B&B, no problem. Yeah. I mean, I just put him in, I put him in B from reputation alone.

I like said, Deathstroke is the premier assassin of the DC universe. additionally if we're going to use like the animated series kind of argument I mean he was the big bad of the Teen Titans cartoon its entire run and see it that's fair you should check out

for like seven TV shows there you go John is there anything you want to remark on death stroke no just I had the the exact same sort of mindset as you that he's

basically the like premier assassin in the DC universe. So that's got to work in his favor somehow, surely. So, Dylan, are you comfortable with us putting him in B tier? Sure. Okay. Worked away.

All right. So next up, we have the Scarecrow. John, Scarecrow is B tier for you. Dylan, you put Scarecrow in B tier. And I put Scarecrow in B tier. So we're all in agreement that's where Scarecrow belongs. we talked about Irish actors a lot we did we did talk about Irish actors a lot

because then we had that moment where we kind of like thought that we forgot where even McGregor fell up we're like wait a minute is he because the name is like and he's got an accent so he's Scottish though he's Scottish he's got a yes right yes he is

so next up we have Firefly So John, you put Firefly in the D tier. Dylan, you put Firefly in your F tier. Oh. And I put him in the F tier as well. I will also point out, Dylan had the most characters in F tier. Do they?

Yes, you have the most characters in F tier. Okay. So just kind of a spoiler. The only character John had an F tier was Killer Moth. Mm-hmm. Wow. So silly

So John You're the odd person out What is it about Firefly that you think makes him better than killer moth He shoots fire I mean Yeah they're basically not that far away from each other in terms of like gimmicks

But the The fact that He could like you know shoot fire and he had a bit of a gimmick to him as well with the paromaniac stuff made him slightly more interesting I thought than Killer Moth. Killer Moth

is a gimmick. He's a moth but it also kills. That's a gimmick. Yeah, but moths aren't exactly the most like the threatening of animals, aren't they? Fireflies are? They really are scared of moths. They really are, man. People are scared of moths.

I mean, Killer Moths portrayal. since forever has always been that he's a loser. Yeah. He's a killer, though. Yeah. He also got beat by, he also got beat by his shoe. I mean, all I'm hearing is we were right to put him off in the afternoon. So, so like I said, you have, you have Firefly in your D tier.

Dylan and I have him both an F tier. And it's just because if my argument with Mr. Freeze is he's one dimensional, then killer Moth is absolutely, if there was like a 0.5 dimensional, that would be Killer Moth. Or not Killer Moth, but Firefly. Like I said, he's a pyromaniac. If they had ever released to that Batgirl movie with Brendan Frazier

playing Firefly, maybe he would have brought something to the role that would have made me reconsider like, oh, maybe there's more to Firefly than just, you know, pyromaniac, but sadly that will that be the case. Can't even use that as an argument. Can't even fill me your way out of this one, John.

well you know i'm not gonna die on a hill for fire nobody so nobody cares yeah but that's why we put up an app here because like fucking nobody cares true true all right up next is everyone's favorite pervert the mad hatter john don't describe him like that so john you had mad hatter listed in your C tier. Dylan, you had Mad Hatter listed in your F tier. And I had Mad Hatter listed in my D tier. So this is the first that we all three have been in very different places when it comes to Matt Hatter. So, John, you had him ranked the highest. And Dylan, you had him ranked the lowest. Correct. We were very quick with this one, I think. You did not waste a lot of time. This one was really quick. Yeah, I think once I talked to it like, yeah, he's like has the mind

He has like the brainwashing technology and he's obsessed with blondes named Alice and sometimes the writers have Alice as a child. He's a weird old pedophile and like well I think that's That goes like Would I put a weird old pedophile

on the same level as Deadshot? Hmm. You know I'm like he's a fucking weird old pedophile stick him as far down as you can put him. Now I do think Matt Hatter has a little bit more to him than than that.

But I also... Redeem equality, so he would redeem him as opposed to being a weird old pedophile? Yeah, he's a weird old pedophile, but he's really good at jigsaws. No, I just think the Allison Wonderland gimmick opens up possibility for other stories. I think he had like Tweedledee and Tweedledum as... That's such an old trope, though, don't you think?

Well, yeah, he's an old character. Right, but like that's been done. Like, that's boring. I guess you could say, yeah, it's not very original as well. It was basically taking a character that was written in like a completely different like novel or whatever. And then just do it again. Yeah. But then they thought, oh, I know how we'll make a, we'll put it.

I know how I will put a spin on him. I can beat a while. Well, I'll do it. I'll do it. B tier, you know, like, come on, man. So, so. So Dylan, are you trying to make the argument that, in the official Smart Avengers tier list.

Mad Hatter should be in the F tier. Yes. Are you happy to vote for a pedophile, like, to go higher list? Ugh, get grief. Think about your actions, your boys. This is going on the internet. This is the poison pill argument that doesn't throw it out. No, because then you go like, yeah, he was a pedophile, but, you know, he'd give money to charity.

I'm like, okay. You keep saying, you keep saying, we're not talking about redeeming qualities. We're talking about story potential. Do you think, okay, is it a good story to see Balam beating up a pedophile? Yes. Does he have? Does that petapel have to be the mat hotter? Or could you just be beaten up any random old pedophile?

I mean, you know, you're not necessarily wrong, but sometimes it's fun to beat up a pedophile with a giant top hat, you know? Oh, is that what makes a difference, is it? I'm just saying, guys, if that's, if that's, if that's, already we were like, this is, this is, in the hill we're not going to die on the killer moth hill etc etc if this is the hill you guys want to die on I don't know which one I'm dying on did not not this yeah you're saving it um so so John um you had him ranked at C tier

yeah defend that are you lowering it I'm happy to go down to D tier I would I would keep him at D tier I think he's more of a threat than killer moth or firefly because of the whole brainwashing. The brainwashing aspect of it, getting people to fight for him, that kind of deal. Okay. And putting him in detail is

not condoning his pedophilia or whatever. Which again, it depends on the writer. Sometimes, like in the animated series, Alice was a woman that was around his age because I think he was a younger man in the animated series. Listen,

it's two against one. And I think because there's three of us, it's very easy to like do like the numbers game on a lot of these things, right? Yeah. So like logistically, if you guys want to put him in D tier, I'm not going to argue that much.

I just wanted on record that I was very vocal with him being an F tier, and you both argued to make him above that, okay? That's on record. I just think in the scale of things, I think he's more of a threat than Firefly and Killer Moth. I feel like my opposition to this has been well known, very clear. It is documented.

Yes. Do whatever you want. All right. Well, we will move on from Matt Hatter and we will move to Hush. Hush on John's list, you had him ranked in C tier. Dylan, you have him also in C tier. And I have him in B tier. I admittedly, I think B tier was the list that was the area I had the most people in. Yeah, it looks like it. But when it comes to Hush, I think my argument for having him that is that it's another one of situations.

I think if your character knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman, I think that should bump you up a little bit because it makes the threat a little bit more real. But I also will contend that Hush is one of those one storyline guys because, you know, aside from the first Hush story, because we talked about that, Dylan, in your ranking list. You know, was he done since Hush? and it's like, well, he posed as Bruce Wayne when Bruce was dead for a while, but not really, but he's going to be a big deal and hush two, and you lost it because you were like, yep, that says a lot when your next big storyline is just the sequel to the first one. That hasn't come out yet?

I think it's either this week or next week that it comes out. Whenever this episode goes out. It will have been out for about two, three weeks at that point. Okay, but whenever we were recording the episodes, Yes. Has not come out yet. And it could be spectacular. Yeah.

We might have to redo the list. At a later date. Yeah. But at the time, we were like, it's, you know. I mean, he's good. He's one of those guys that I heard of and you knew he'd done stuff. Yeah. But, like, I couldn't justify, like, putting him into, like,

a serious, like, intercontinental championship, contendership, because he hasn't done. He needs to establish himself more. Get some more wins under his belt. Exactly. But no, no, proper wins. Yeah. Anybody can get wins under the belt.

He needs to beat the right people. Sometimes you're just a guy in a giant evil turkey suit, racking up wins, and they don't matter because they're not real ones, you know? Sometimes you're just a big peanut pile on the top hat. Yep. Sometimes you're in C tier right beside Deadshot. So we are at the halfway part, the halfway mark here. So far, we have no one in S tier.

In A tier, we have Rayshal Ghul, Bain, and Catwoman. In B tier, we have Killer Croc, Deathstroke, and Scarecrow. C tier, we have Deadshot and Hush. D tier, Man Bat and Matt Hatter. F tier, Firefly, and Killer Moth. Are we good with that? Anybody want to revisit any of these before we move forward? Comments that you want to make?

I think I'll meet all my comments. Yeah, I'm happy with that. Okay. All right. So next up we have Harley Quinn. So this one, we preface this one a lot, that this was kind of a weird one to do because she's not really portrayed as a villain anymore. In an online comic, she's portrayed as somebody with a gas problem, it seems.

But Harley Quinn on John's list, you have her in B tier. Dylan, you have Harley Quinn in A tier. And I have Harley listed in B tier as well. I think my reasoning for that is just simply the fact that by, you know, during her villain heyday, more known as a sidekick to the Joker. Mm-hmm. And more known as an anti-hero now for the most part. But Dylan, any thoughts on why you had her in A-tier? Are you open to revisiting that? So I BSMine a lot based.

Like I said, it was kind of like the big name, like, you know, who have you heard of? Dude, Hardy Cohn was everywhere. Yeah, still is for the most part. Like she's, ever since she came in, she has been super popular. He's always been like a focal point of the Batman cartoon series so much that they brought her into the comics. Kevin Smith named her his fucking kid after Hardy Quinn. There was a point where for like years, not just once, years, when you went to a Comic-Con, everybody was dressed at Hardy Quinn. Men and women.

Everybody was dressed at Hardy Quinn. That was, it was a really like big, iconic thing. She was so popular. and I would say still is very popular. Yeah. Because, you know, I said Catwoman, I think, what did I say? Catwoman was A? Yes, Catwoman was A because she was like incredibly popular and a really good, like strong

female character. I think that Hardy Quinn became, at first she was a sidekick. They evolved her because of how obscenely popular she was into less of a psychic and more of a herself, her own kind of character, even getting out of like being. a full villain she became like an anti-hero an anti-villain and whatever like she was so popular that I like if pro wrestling terms

if she's that popular you can't ignore that you got to let her win the wrong noble do you mean yeah even if even if she's not that great of a wrestler she's crazy popular with everybody everybody knows Hardy Quinn if you were showing people like pictures of well that's that was my my rationale is like the pro wrestling business right

if you're just talking about pure like because the problem with Hardy Quinn like we said was because she's not a full the other ones you can rank on their villainous nature but because Hardy Quinn's a little bit like you know I think we acquitted it to the Black Cat in Spider-Man yeah black cat incredibly popular although Harley Quinn I would argue is more popular than the Black Cat I wouldn't that's not even an argument but black cat like a very popular very iconic kind of character Bit of an anti-hero, not always on Spider-Man side. But still, like, you would rank her pretty high up, I think, if you were, if we were just ranking them. Yeah, she's not maybe as villainous as everybody else, but she's still kind of a villain. And because everybody knows her, I'm like, I would put her pretty high up.

Same a Hardy Quinn. She's not strictly a villain anymore, but she's done a lot of villainous things. And she could probably do it again. And I think that she has the capability. She's been by the Joker's side by so long. She knows a lot of evil stuff. she has the capability she's the potential

to get it you know I would say A tier is justified well I would definitely not rank black cat high on the list of Spider-Man villains we'll wait till we do that episode yeah I'm actually looking forward to

Spider-Man villains because I would be I'd be in the position of you guys of this one going I don't really know a ton of this stuff so bear with me um it sounds almost like you were talking about Jay Uso for a hot minute Yeah, not the analogy.

But I still kind of go back to like her effectiveness as a villain. If you if we are like if if you guys were more familiar with the punchline character and she was on the list. I mean punchline makes Harley look like a joke because punchline's a sociopath. Like Harley has always been like cute and bubbly and silly and you know, again, she was more of like the Joker's sight. kick whereas like when they introduced punchline and we're writing her it's like oh this is like if harley quinn was competent and like actually dedicated to the idea of killing people so like that's kind of like the same avenue of like she's not in that same realm of like a racial ghoul or a bane in accomplishments and like yeah catwoman's also like you know she's kind

of just there for the heritage aspect of being a long running villain like she's you know she was one of the first going back to the 1940s, whereas Harley's only been around since like, what, 92? Yeah. So, and like you said, she's been, she's been on the side of angels really since, God, 2010. Okay. Because even then, like, you know, she's been riding that line when they, when they brought her over into the new 52 and they made her a member of suicide squad and broke her away from Joker full time. but yeah I just I

I just don't see her as effective as a Bain or Rasa A ghoul or a catwoman agreed I mean I'm happy to like because I could see your argument like if we're going like pure villainous like intent and stuff like that

yeah that's fine yeah yeah because I mean honestly that same argument should apply to Catwoman it's just Catwoman's been around since the 1940s yeah exactly she's got history with Batman

that kind of well like personal history as well which makes a more of a uh i guess like you know personal uh sort of enemy to batman when she does turn evil it's again that aspect of like she knows who he is that automatically gives you points in my opinion yeah so um next up i know uh will be interesting uh we have the joker so john you have the joker so john you have the Joker in your S tier. I have the Joker in my S tier. Dillins is a little more complicated. Dylan, do you want to go ahead and tell John how you rank Joker? I originally put Janker, Janker. The Janker. I put him an app tier, but then I knew everybody would get

angry at me. So I put him in S tier, but with a caveat that Corey had to put brackets and say Hulk Hogan, close brackets. Okay. Yep. Because again, I was going from a very pro-rasty standpoint. I'm like, yes, of course, the Joker is the most popular villain. Everybody's heard of the Joker. I like a lot of the incarnations of the Joker, you know, film-wise. I like Jack Nicholson. I like Heath Ledger.

Love Jared Leto. Well, Jared Lito, I realized was one of the guys I hated. You loved Barry Krogan in that deleted scene. The problem was I couldn't understand what he was saying. That was a bother for me. But I loved Mark Hamill, John DiMaggio played. the Joker as well. Great stuff, right? But in the comics, I just don't

like the character. I think he's really Liam. I think he's just such a Liam boring. He's just a clown. It's just, I don't like him, right? So then I acquitted him to like Hulk Hogan because Hulk Hogan, everybody in the world knows that Hulk Hogan is a wrestler. And if you ask

anybody, who's the raster? They're going to say Hulk Hogan. If you ask anybody, who's a Batman villain? They're going to say Joker. Does that mean? He's the best? No. It means he's the most well-known. he's the first that yeah that doesn't mean he's the best just because he was there and everybody knows him

doesn't mean he's the best one at it and you know as we've seen with Hulk Hogan he has turned into not the best kind of character and I feel like when you look at the Joker a lot of the stuff that you see with the Joker in modern not even modern storylines

it's been going on for a while but especially more in the last since the fucking Joker film came out with Wacking Phoenix is that it's become this weird like edge lord like this horrible like not a fun character he's just this awful just not a fun guy to read

and people think he's cool and edgy but he's not he's just this just not interesting awful stupid character that they keep trying to like one-off like you the Joker is the crazy criminal mastermind oh you'd never be able to play the Joker I mean he's a fucking clawing I just I don't get people's obsession

with the Joker I don't I don't like it now let's be fair here let's be totally fair. Put them in F tier is probably really harsh of me, right? Yeah. And I understand why people will put him an S tier. And listen,

I already know how this is going to go. Yeah. I know we're all going to put him an ass tier, right? Because part of the whole Kogan thing, you have to. You have to put him an ass tier. I'm shackled. I have no choice but to put him in S tier.

But I wanted known on record, and this is twice not. You disagree. I don't like it. Yes. So here's the thing. You can argue it. I don't even need to hear the arguments.

I already know. Joker, blah, blah, legacy. He's been around forever. He does. He killed Robin. He's done all the other shit that he's done, right? Yada, yada, yada.

Jarolito. We all know this. Let's just put up an ass tier and fucking forget about it. I mean, if anybody wants to argue with me, fine. We can waste another 15 minutes arguing. And then we'll just come to the same conclusion anyway.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, if anything, it should just be statement of the facts. Yes, he was the very first Batman villain in the very first issue of the storylines. He has, he killed a Robin. He paralyzed Batgirl. I mean, his accomplishments as a Batman villain, nobody has come close to. If Bain gets points because Bain took Batman out of commission,

Joker is the one who basically wrecked Bruce's life by, you know, causing irreparable harm to several people. I think if you ask Batman himself, who his worst villain was, he would say it was Joker anyway. So like- Right, but we can't because he's not real. Well, you know, no shit, but like, I'm sure he said it in the comics at some point that Joker is his worst villain. So much like- If Batman says it, then it must be true.

Much like how the, the natural enemy of spiders is gobbling. so it is that bats are clowns. Even that, we'll save that for the Spider-Man. We'll save that for the Spider-Man episode. So up next. Yeah, we have to put him in the next here. Yeah, there's really no other. Yeah, it's just that one we can't really debate.

Part of it was, let's be honest, it would be fun to read the comments. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah, it would be interesting to say the least. That's how you get, people are always like, you've got to get an engagement of people. I'll tell you you you can engage with people. Tell the comic book industry that the Joker sucks as and is on the same level as a pedophile.

All right. Well, let's move on to Hugo Strange. John, you have Hugo Strange in your C tier. Dylan, you have him in your D tier. And I have Hugo Strange in my B tier. So that, again, we are spread. Yep, we have them spread across the board. Again, I always get points.

know who if you know that Bruce Wayne is Batman. Yeah, you're too liberal with your points here, did. Listen, and again, it's because, you know, Hugo Strange is one of the few characters who've been able to get into his head in a very real way. You know, he's not the Joker in the sense of like, I'm going to cause a bunch of chaos and light shit on fire. He, like, fucked with him psychologically to the point that he thought he killed Hugo Strange and for a year was seeing the ghost of Hugo Strange when it was just Hugo

Strange the whole time. But I don't think that's good. It's like you think you killed him, but you didn't. So I'm like, isn't it likely that it's just him? Well, I mean, he's just fucking with him, you know, psychologically. Batman is not a psychologically sound character. We know this. Now, I have no problem going down to a C tier,

but I know that somebody has him listed lower than that. Yeah, well, dude, I don't care enough about Hugo Stryant to put him in, if you want to put him in C tier, that's fine. I don't think he's a B tier. I think C or D is probably, I can. accurate. Okay. Yeah, I don't think he's beat here. But then it's essentially like, are we trying to say that Hugo Strangers on the same level as hush and dead. Sorry, hush and dead shot or man bat and mad hatter. I mean, he's definitely above man bat. Okay. So yeah. So I guess, yeah, see, well, I didn't, obviously I didn't put Matt hatter my deal is. So I wouldn't, I would obviously put him ahead of mad hatter. So. All right. Um, Our next group on the list, I say group, it is the Court of Owls slash Tallin, the assassin for the Court of Owls.

John, you have the Court of Owls ranked in B tier. Dylan, you have the Court of Owls ranked in B tier, and I have the Court of Owls ranked in A tier. I think because of that potential storyline aspect of it, there are so many members of them, they are old money. They have their hands in tons of pockets. I just think there is there's a lot more potential with the court of owls, even though I think as great as the opening storyline for them was, I think they had a really weak ending. Yeah. Oh, they've had an ending, like a definitive ending now, have they? No, no, no, no.

They're still around. They're still active. Oh, okay. I just met the original, the, yeah, the storyline introduced the court of owls that Scott Snyder put out, he had a really weak ending, which I've been on the record multiple times saying Scott Snyder had Scott Snyder. We have Scott Steiner. Yep, Scott Steiner. We have done with this by how he starts. Great ideas.

Yeah. Terrible finish. Don't get the finish. Yep. Good start, terrible finish. A lot of run-ins. Just a no, makes no sense. Scott Stier, you know, Scott Hall hits somebody with a taser.

The guy catches the ball and he's the champion. You're like, all right. All right. Sure. Yeah. Good enough from me. All right. So I obviously disagree with you guys on the Court of Owls.

Like you said, my argument is just that I think that there's a lot of potential there because for all in its purposes, not one person. The Court of Allals, I think they established in the futures end storyline, which is a universe that takes place years in the future. The court of owls are still very active and still very powerful. So they've been around for a long time and they can continue for a long time because there's not one leader. It is quite literally a group of Gotham's elite.

Are we ranking this on potential or for what they've actually done? That's what I was about to say. Because I'm like, if you're talking about potential, that that means C tier is perfect for them or B tier is perfect for them because they have the potential to get in a tier. They're not there yet. They can do it, but they haven't done it. The potential's there.

Yeah. They haven't done it yet. They could do it. They haven't done it yet. You know what you mean? It's a good story. Yeah. Good, good world building, sure, you know.

It's good world building, but yeah, I think you're right. I don't think they've accomplished enough yet to be in the A tier. Do they know who Batman is? No, that's, I do not. So, yeah, no, you're right. There is. I'll give you that. All your own rules.

The court and the B. So, yeah. I think, was B tier like our most, no, B tier is you two had the most popular people. Yeah, I have the most people in B. and John I think it's the most people in eight tier did I or D tier? You had yours was a tie actually between A, D and F. John yours was a tie between B C and D. Mm-hmm.

Wow. All right. So next up, we have the penguin. John, you have the penguin listed in your A tier or your S tier. Yes. Dylan, you have him in your S tier. And I have penguin listed in my. B tier.

Oh, get the fuck out of here. B tier. All right. This is, we're going to have to fight it with this. I think we might have to do in that sense. I just do not see the penguin. I see him on the same level of scarecrow.

I think you, I think you guys see him in the Danny DeVito role. But as, you know, as a person who has read a lot of Batman comics, Penguin is kind of a joke. He's kind of cowardly. He's a guy that, you know,

most of the time he hides behind the fact that you can't fuck with him in the iceberg lounge because he's hasn't been caught doing anything wrong yet like i think the colin i think the colin feral version of penguin is the most accurate version of penguin in that he's kind of a middle tier guy middle tier yeah i think he's middle tier you better watch yourself kid like you said i know you guys really have a love for the dania de vito portrayal but like certain circus freak penguin is is not comic book penguin okay but if you were just ranking it down in the divido penguin i mean if it was denny de vito penguin i'd probably put him a little higher he accomplished a bit more than comic book penguin ever has the biggest thing that comic book penguin has done recent years is faking his death and blaming it and it being blamed on batman which kick to start the whole fail safe storyline okay well that sounds like a big storyline but The storyline aspect was Penguin faked his death and hit out running a flower shop in Metropolis

while all this other shit was going on. So you outsmarted everybody. Yes, until he got bored of being in a flower shop of Metropolis and I think had to come back because his children were running the Iceberg Lounge. Also, he's a very distinctive looking person. Like, how was he disguising himself? I think it's again, it's Metropolis. It's just like nobody expects any Batman villain to just be in Metropolis.

Everybody's a freaking metropolis. Some of those guys, my... He's a freak with a pH. He's a freak of us, Scott Steiner since. And also with an F. N. F. You know? I mean, right.

So, John, you rank penguin pretty high. I rank penguin pretty high. You both rank them very high. That's not pretty high. You'd see your highest tier. To me, he's like one of those... And this is, I said this, he's one of the most... essential Batman villains.

When you think about Batman, there's like four or five people you think of. Sure. And I think that reluctantly, I have to see the Joker, but realistically, I think penguins on the list. And you could say,

yeah, he's in the films, whatever. But there's a reason he's been used in all these media, like a lot. It's because he's a good character. There's stuff you can do with him.

And we have told different stories with him. And you can say that, oh, film penguin's not the same as comics penguin. Isn't that cool that they have different versions of this penguin and they call them our one's a different penguin like they have that for every fucking character what are you talking about oh do they is is is mad hatter not a paedophile in all

the media no no he is a peter file i'm about to say like you know like several other characters have had various different depictions and style but what i'm saying is if we're going to use your wrestling analogy comic book penguin is the miss you put the title on it but nobody's buying him as the champion you know That's just a simple fact matter. No. He's a good, he's a good hand that's going to get you some heat every now and then, but he is not, he's not S-tier. That's not correct because if he wasn't- He's not correct.

He wouldn't have been the mean villain in a fucking Batman film. He was in the, he was the main villain in the Batman film written by the goth guy, and he turned his entire characterization to like, oh, he's a little underground freak living with a bunch of weird old clowns. He was the mean event villain. in the best Batman film. He's not the Miz because he can prove that he's his own film. He changes characterization completely for the most part. Penguin is low level. Which is something that the MIS could never do.

Your problem was you made the analogy that he was a MIS. That was a mistake on your part. The MIS was in the most marine films. More than Sina and more than Randy Orton was ever in W.B. Congratulations. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. not that big a deal, is it?

You think that Batman returns is the same as being in four Marine films? Yes, I think so. It's a Tim Burton film at the end of the day. That's like, Tim Burton always picks the fucking weirdo characters and when he can't get the weirdo characters, he takes regular characters and makes him weirdos.

Catwoman is nothing like the Michelle Pfeiffer Catwoman is great, but she's not comic book, Michelle Catwoman. Catwoman is Not so character who, yeah. What I'm saying is like, it's not the same. It's you took a depiction and you just completely altered a comic

character to fit it. So like, he's been, but he's been a main character in every, he's still a main character in the comics. He's been a main character in every single TV show. Penguin shows up, like Penguin is a side character at best that turns up with, we got to get some information. Penguin's still not in jail because he's hiding behind the iceberg lounge being an illegitimate business, go threaten him, Robin, and get some info.

And then that's what happens, and he moves on. Penguin is not a... Yes. Who would you equate the Penguin to in terms of Spider-Man villains? In Spirited. Well, see, I can't do that because I don't know Spider-Man. Films as well. You're going to have to soon.

Yeah, right. Boy, that's going to be a weird list for you guys to have to deal with. Oh, it's going to be an easy list for us to deal with. Well, that's not I'm saying, listening to me talk about it. It's going to be weird for you. I mean, like I said, I would put him like, and I just, again, I don't know the characters that will, aside from like a depiction in the cartoon,

maybe the chameleon? But I would rank the committee pretty high, though. See, but I don't know the community. I don't like one episode. Would you rank the comedian pretty high? No, I think he'd still be mid-table. Can I just say for the record, what was it? Corey was like, oh, the first ever Batman villain was the Joker.

He was the first ever Spider-Man villain. I don't know. It's a comedian. It was a chameleon. I didn't know. I would say the penguin is more iconic than the comedian. Well, you know what I'm going to say. Penguin is S here.

That's it. Well, I don't know. I think Corey's swayed me a little bit in his reasoning. Yeah. I could go up to A, but I'm not going to S for Penguin. I can drop down to A, I think. Well, I'm not moving from S. So you guys can bit

you want but again on record yes this guy said penguin s tier now Dylan could you believe that when you when you were putting this up and you were going oh we're gonna where people are going to be disagreeing with stuff they're going to be disagreeing with stuff did you think it was going to be the penguin that we were going to be the one that's agreeing the most on no but I also couldn't I just don't care about the joke enough they argue with them all right well let's let's keep on trucking we got poison ivy up next uh John annoyed about this I don't know if I want to do a show you anymore.

John, you have Poison Ivy ranked in your A tier. Dylan, you have Poison Ivy ranked in your A tier. And I have Poison Ivy ranked in my B tier. What's wrong you did? You'd see

where me and John are coming from for a lot of these point of views. And you always seem to be like, I'm a little bit too critical. No, you're saying you can see where John and I are coming from this point of views. you've not made an argument. You just agree on where you are as two people who don't read Batman.

Yeah. I read Batman. We don't even need to hear each other arguments. No, no, I just... No, you're in the same, like, you're more Marvel-based people. Yes. Therefore, even more like Poison and Ivy people.

Apparently. Not me. Now, like I said, my argument with Poisoned Ivy is just a simple fact of accomplishments. I don't see her above some of the other characters like a scarecrow. Okay. What's scarecrow done that Poison Ivy hasn't done?

I mean, scarecrow took over an entire building that was in downtown Gotham. And he was also like the main villain in Arkham Knight, the Red Herring, that it was going to be the Arkham Knight as the main villain. But it was actually Scarecrow like pulling strings. Okay. But then Poison Ivy was like a big part of Arkham Knight as well because she ends up like basically taken over the city. like releasing loads of like spores and stuff, which means you can't go down on the ground. Are you talking about Arkham Asylum or Arkham?

Arkham Knight. Okay, because I remember her part being kind of bigger in Arkham Asylum when she gets the Titan. I mean, she's been having pretty big parts in all those games, really. I guess, yeah, I guess my thing is, is like, when you look at the A tier and you see Raza, Gould, and bane. I just don't go and poison ivy right beside them. I think her power set kind of puts up pretty high as well.

I mean, it has been souped up lately because they've tied her closer to the elemental green. But again, she's being more of an anti-hero lately. She's an omega-level mutant eye. Omega-level mutants, dear God. Boy, the day that we have to do an X-Mint here. It'll take forever It's just like a million Oh boy It will take a hot minute

I mean I can go up to A tier But at the end of the day If you look at point Like where Harley Quinn is And you go like well Poison Ivy should be above that I don't know That's why I think

It's like above Deathstroke Terminator Level Well I did too But they're both a B tier of mine That's that's your problem You fucked it up That's my problem

Shouldn't have done that. This list must be really getting under your skin, Dylan, because there's only one S to yourself and his Joker. Yeah, well, it should be penguin. I disagree. Me jumping up from B to A is a gift. A gift.

That's a gift. Is it? A gift. I think Poison Ivy is really cool character. Yes. I really like her. I think that I don't know the entire history

but again a lot of this was going on like how popular they are and how I didn't just know her from the film but God bless you if that was the only way you knew her

that's not great but like Poison Ivy is one of those characters that like sticks around yeah but it's almost like she sticks around despite herself because she didn't really have

any like great episodes of the animated series like I can't recall aside actually just from the Arkham games, Poison Ivy having a great outside of comic portrayal. Oh, I don't know if she did.

She was kind of forgettable in all the in like all the other media she's been introduced in aside from, you know, the Arkham games. Mm-hmm. But she's Mabble than those up. I mean, she is, but also like she's, there weren't as many villains to share the wealth because, I mean,

like Killer Croc had, you know, and Scarecrow were also a very big memorable parts of those games, and they're both B-tier. Hmm. That's an interesting point. Don't wave it, Dylan. I mean, let's be honest here. I haven't so far. Dylan has been obstinate. I've been pretty adamant about all the Olympics and that you guys are all wrong.

So if we're doing the numbers game, and I have, I have... You have yielded on the numbers game before. I have to put my hands up and say, I can't argue with the numbers game. Yeah. I mean, I can do the same, but I've also done the same for the court of owls. But I saw your point with the court of owls. With Poison Ivy, I don't necessarily see your point with putting her in A tier. Okay.

So I will yield. I will yield to the numbers, but I'm doing this. I'm doing what you did with Joker, and that is making my thoughts known. That's perfect. That's fine. Okay. Yeah, but that means you still have to put her in A tier. She's an A tier.

Yeah, no, she's going in. But down on the record, everybody. Everybody lives to the show, you'll. I disagree. That's fair enough. Okay. I can't wait to see the one that John disagrees on. I don't know.

He folded on the penguin like real quick. I wasn't real quick. I had to listen to a lot. You were like, oh, Corey, good idea, Corey. It took some convincing. All right, next up, we have Professor Pig. John, you have Professor Pig ranked in D tier. Dylan, you have Professor Pig ranked in B tier.

and I have Professor Pig ranked in D tier as well. Wow. Do you have them ranked higher than the two of us? Yeah. Why did you put him in B tier? I thought he was a really cool

interesting villain. I mean, he's really one note though, isn't he? He kills people? wearing a pig mask. So that's one note, but killing people wearing a clown mask is different?

It's not wearing a clown mask. Ah, it's his fucking face. He doesn't even wore him. mask, he's this fucking face. Oh, you guys have been hosted by you a bitard. He's a shitty character. We all know it.

Joker, not Professor Pig. No, I mean, Professor Pig has an interesting motivation. He's written to be utterly out of his mind, but I don't necessarily see him higher than a D. Nope. I thought he was a fun character. I thought he was a fun character, but. Well, you know what?

I'll, I'll, like, go down to see. If you guys are willing to go up to see, I'll go down and see. I mean, Professor Pig also has, there had been accusations that Professor Pink could also be construed as a pedophile. Oh, the fuck, see it. All right. You didn't tell me that last time. I mean, we, no, well, I mean, you know, considering his lolletrons are usually children that are orphans that he mutilates and turns into weirdos. Also, like you said, this is like, this is really.

game like unfounded not a hundred percent sure about this this is not set in stone this is conjecture that you've added in to cause an argument i want that stricken from the record well i mean it's not like exactly press that matt hatter is doing that too but you know he is also obsessed with the alice's so so are we now you have him in b john and i have him in d is there are are we going to meet in the middle or are we going to meet the middle i'm happy to meet the middle i'm happy to me in the middle. I think we should stick him in D still. I, I, I mean, but if I disagree with John, then, you know, John's not going to be back me up later. Then you won't be best friends anymore because he's been backing you up

whatever than so far. No, I just, like I said, I think pig's interesting, but pig has been not really well developed since Grant Morrison left. Right. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, like you said, I'll always give points for a grant character, but just pig hasn't been given a lot. And because the nature of the character, I think Pig's only been in, like, I think when Pig was in Arkham Knight,

and also in Beware the Batman, and they certainly did not get into the creepier aspects of him in the cartoon. Well, they couldn't. It's a fucking cartoon. Exactly, and really couldn't. And it's almost that point. Like, why did you even put him in then? That shows the versatility of the character

where you can, like... By ignoring... aspects of it. You can change his character, put him in the cartoon, put him in something else. Versatile. You can do lots of stuff. I don't know, like I said, I can't justify going up to C from D. I disagree. I'm happy to get on the scene. Is this going to be just you noting that you disagree with this and because it's a numbers thing? It looks like it. Let's hear what John has to say. D tear all the way. Well, what a surprise out. was. See, you guys, best friends. I don't like this.

I wish the picture they chose him actually in his face because it looks just like Hugo Strange has a really tiny body. Yeah. Oh, giant heads. All right. Speaking of tiny bodies and giant heads, next up is the ventriloquist. So, John, you have the ventriloquist in your D tier. Dylan, you have them in your F tier. And I have ventriloquist in my D tier as well. Now, you go against the ventrinoquist, Evan. Yeah. Can I tell you one of the weird ventriloquist things is there was a period of time where the old man ventriloquist died and Scarface went to this like smoking hot blonde woman who was who went as the ventriloquist. I don't know how that fucking works because it was still Scarface in charge. Like the idea was that.

the original ventriloquist was obviously mentally ill and believed that the that the dummy was alive how did that get passed on to another person who got the same characterization like smoking hot blonde woman that's why yeah i'm just like in common what's the justification there isn't any f tier but i mean look at that's the versatility the ventriloquist could be an old man or a hot blonde woman you've already established the fact that you don't give a shit about versatility because it didn't work on Professor F pig or penguin so

F tier don't even pull that shit on me I mean I don't honestly God I don't have I don't really have a lot of skin in the game with the ventralquist John if if you're steadfast and keeping him dear in deep then I think we can talk a little bit further

but I also don't mind dropping him to F I mean I don't mind dropping him to F as well all right there we go Who cares? Yeah. That might have been my quote. I don't remember.

It might have actually been. Put that in the T-shirt. Who cares? All right. Next up, we have Jason Todd, the Red Hood. John, you have him in D tier. Dylan, you have him in C-tier. And I also had him in C-tier as well.

I think just based on the fact that, you know, it's he's more of an anti-hero now if at that because I mean they've been even pushing him further as not even really being an anti-hero anymore just a hero that goes a little too hard but um I think I don't think he's ever really been a villain though he was a villain right well yeah I mean well yeah he was he had confrontations with nightwing but even then like they it was you know if it's like all shades of gray it was a really dark gray He was never all black. It was more like a bratty child, like, acting out against his brothers and dad than, like, out why he came back and he introduced himself to Tim Drake, who replaced him as Robin. He beat the shit out of him in the Titans Tower, completely unprovoked. Exactly.

So, I mean, that's kind of a dick move. Now, admittedly, my brother's true, but my brother is very different, so. Correct. I do not develop my brother. I used to. My brother's 15 years older. than me. That would have been a crime if he did that to me. That's it?

I don't know. Yeah, I guess so. Are we, I, again, I don't have too much skin in the game for keeping Jason Todd and C tier. But numbers game, though, Corey. Whatever. I disagree. Yeah, I disagree. But, like, again, that's not one I'm going to. Not one you're going to lose sleepover. No.

All right. Next up, we have Solomon Grundy. The Revenant. John, you have Solomon Grundy listed in your C tier. Dylan, you have him in your D tier. And I have Grundy in my C tier as well. I will be honest with you. I think a lot of that just has to do with the fact that Grundy's power set is, you know, he's essentially incredibly strong.

He can't die. So he keeps coming back. And every time he comes back a little bit different, I think it makes them more of a threat because you never really know what kind of threat you're getting with Grundy. Okay. And I can't put him any higher because more often than not, he is just a goon for somebody. You know, Penguin keeps him locked up in the basement of the iceberg lounge or like Batman's

in the sewer. He's like Batman's in the sewer for whatever reason and Grundy's down there too and like there's just a fight, you know? I think that's why I ranked him like where I ranked him. Indeed. Yeah, because you're like, yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, He has the potential to do stuff, but he just seems like one of those mindless kind of goons that just does stuff. Yeah. I mean, I'm looking.

I'm looking. Yeah, he doesn't really, like, do anything like crazy, interesting that would like make him. Yeah, on his own. Yeah. Because I'm looking at our D tier list right now, and it's Band Bat, Madhatter, and Professor Pig. I could definitely see Grundy slotting in there. Yeah. Like, like, because if you look at him in C tier, like, who else is in C tier?

Bunch of dudes with guns and an evil psychiatrist. Like, you know. does Solomon Grande like kind of fit into that that gimmick? He doesn't use guns and he's he doesn't he doesn't have a degree so right like he's again he's got potential but like he never really sees through that potential by himself he's always kind of like a sidekick or a hired goon or something like that kind of like a mindless body to do stuff he's never really like the the main focus of a story yeah I have no problem dropping him to D you think John yeah

I will go along with that as well then All right Next up we have the Ridler John you have the riddler in your S tier Dylan you have the riddler And I have the riddler in your S tier and I have The riddler in my S tier So we are all in agreement that the riddler

Is right on par with the Joker How did you rank the riddler Higher than the Penguin? Easily Ridler has been able to have major plots That are just dedicated to him Batman year like Batman zero year in the new 52 launch was all Ridler taking over Gotham essentially.

Even now, like, Ridler had set up a coup where he set up his own company that was very close to buying out Wayne Enterprises. Not there yet. No, and that's because he got in bed with a court of owls, and it didn't go super hot with him. We've all been in bed with a court of oils. And there's like 20 guys on that. So it's a great time.

They all wear masks. It's like a bacchanal. Yeah. Maybe cut this, but I do. All right. Next up, we have... Keep it in. I want people to know.

Yeah. No shame. Fuck to all the court of oils. I'm not ashamed of it. All right. So next up, we have Two-Face. John, you have him in your A-tier. Dylan, you have him in your S-tier.

And I also have him in my S-tier. So Two-Face, one of the more iconic lines. He's the character that fell from... Grace. He also very well knows that, you know, Bruce Wayne is Batman, but only half of him knows. Harvey knows, but Two-Face doesn't. Half a point. Half a point. So, John, what is keeping Two-Face from going from an A to an S in your book? The clown-make-up one. He's half-line makeup on. I thought he was a bit one-note, like, in terms of his gimmick.

literally two notes. All he has is like the stuff with Harvey and Two-Face, like, fighting for control and the coin flip and stuff. But at the same time, I will concede that he's obviously, like, one of the more iconic Batman villains. So, I mean, yeah, he's pretty good. that's what again you know if you talk about Bama villains there's like five guys or like bam bam like big deals

but 2PS is one of them but you think about like the way I think about 2PS isn't just like I think in the in the film with Tommy Lee Jones he was very just coin flippy and murdery

and I think that when you saw him in like further iterations of of bad man. He, he wasn't just flip, there was more

to him to just flipping a coin. Yeah. You had that duality of man. You had that kind of like good guy, bad guy thing,

which I really liked that they did try to like play up more in like the further Batman films. And I would have loved to see like Christopher Nolan film were like, um,

2PS was more of a, a villain. I think he would have done that really well because I think he would have got that kind of like, you know, the two sides with that really, really well. I think he's a villain that, like, has a lot of, like,

um, good stuff. I think they've done a lot of good stuff. And again, I haven't read all the comics, but, but, like,

a lot of the stuff I have seen has been, like, fun because they do that kind of duality of man and that kind of, a good guy, bad guy. Like, it's easy to appeal to either side of him, which is really interesting.

Because if you have, like, Batman and, say the Joker both talking to 2Face at one time you don't know which side he's going to go for

like that is interesting there's loads of like cool stuff about 2Face plus the coin flip is cool well I think the thing that I kind of wanted just to that puts him a nest here for me is he's the character of the Batman failed

you know like ultimately two face Harvey fell like that's he fell from grace he was a partner with Commissioner Gorge and especially like long Halloween illustrated that perfectly. Yeah. So like it makes that it makes him being a villain more personal for for Batman. It's more of a reluctance at times.

Yeah, I can definitely go along with that. And like, yeah, the long Halloween as well was just a great sort of origin story for Two-Face. So I think that alone will help bump him up in my estimation. All right. And I'll be honest with you, this is, like I said, the fourth time I've looked at this list and every time I feel the same way. Boy, that drop after Two Face is brutal. So we got Black Mask.

John, you have Black Mask in your C tier. Dylan, you have him in your D tier. And I have Black Mask in my F tier. Wow. Yeah. I think aside from Torture in Stephanie Brown with a power drill, I don't know if Black Mask ever really accomplished much for me. me aside from random mob boss with a mask.

God damn, he's as good as killer moth. I would say so. I mean, one of his other memorable parts is in Under the Red Hood when Jason Todd comes back is, you know, a very comedic scene of panels where, you know, Black Mask is talking to Hood on the phone and he says, hey, look across the street and he looks over and he sees Red Hood waving at him with a missile launcher pointed at him. So it's like kind of a joke character in that. sense. He got to got jobbed out there. Wow. He mentioned that one in the last episode.

Well, there's only so much we can mention, you know. I only put him in C tier because of my affinity for E. O. McGregor. So I am more than happy to drop him down. Gil McGregor. So are we dropping him down to D or to F is the question? I'm happy to go to D. I don't think he's an F tier. You don't think he's an F tier. So you don't think he's an F tier. So you don't think he's in the realm of ventriloquist firefly or killer moth no i don't i mean i'm more of i think he's more violent i mean i'll give you that just because i know catwoman's had some struggles with him in her comic so i mean i'll give you d okay that sounds fair i'm happy enough of that all right and our last one is a character that made dylan laugh really hard when i bring

when i mentioned him it's mr zazz so john you have mr zazz listed in your d tier you have him in your F tier and I have him in my D tier as well and I think it's just body count alone just because he's a serial killer for me yeah plus he gets around he's like he seems to pop up in like different video games and whatnot as well so I mean he's that low card he's that low card jobber oh yeah he was in yeah he's like the first named villain you and you fight in Arkham asylum well can I just really quickly call back to something Corey just said yeah what's up He's that low-car jobber.

He is? That would be F-tier. That's Chad Gable. You're going to say that Chad Gable is an F-tier? No, I don't think that Chad Gable is that low-tier jobber. I think he is a low-tier jobber. Chad Gable just won a match on Raw. No, El Greggaritano.

Right. We don't know who it's under that mask. It could be anybody. It could be the Midnight Rider. We don't know. Okay. But it's Chad Gable, though. What I'm saying is like, yes, but Chad Gable is also a guy who spent the

last few years in a comedy, you know, low card heel team with Otis in Alpha Academy, you know? And then there was the failed American Made launch that happened. I, what I'm saying is Mr. Zaz is not, you, you don't, he might get a win every now and then, but he's winning like against Tazawa. Yeah. Which would put him in apt here. No, no, because like I said, he's got a body count. You just said he was winning against guys like,

Ocala, he never wins. So he's in Aesahua. Yes. We have exactly. He still wins. He's just a boy. He still wins. You guys are saying he's not very good. Yes, but I'd say he's better than F. Killer Moth didn't have a body count. Not by much. Yeah, that's why it's D. I don't think, I don't think so, man. This sounds like this guy's not good. No, like I said, he's got a body count. He has significantly killed a ton of people. As why he has tally marks all over him. Killer Moth didn't do that shit. Killer Moth struggles to rob the bank. He's a fucking moth. Yes, exactly. That's why he's better than F tier.

I don't. I disagree. I don't think this guy, because what else is he done? What's his big storyline? He doesn't have a big storyline because he's D tier. What's that? Because he's a job or F tier.

Because he's the, so that's the same area of Solomon Grundy, which we put him at. I would say, Chad Gables had loads of storylines, and this guy has, This guy's an F tier. I don't know. I disagree. I feel like he's better than F tier.

I'm not saying he's C or above. I'm saying he's D. You could even put him on the cusp of D to F, but... Can we put him an E? We can put him in E. Sure, we'll have him in E the same way that we had... Who was originally in your E? Was it Man Bad? Killer Moth, I think. You put him in there?

Killer Moth was in my E tier. John, what do you think? E tier? So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold up. You put Killer Moth in your E tier, which has... had, and you had the most F-tier people. So you thought Killer Moth was better than... The Madhatter, the Venshelichrist, this fucking guy we're talking about, and the Joker, technically.

I just don't see it. Why? He's a killer. Yeah, but this actually is a killer. Yeah, but he's got wings. He hasn't actually killed anyone. So? Mr. Zaz has killed people. Can this guy fly? Probably not.

Killer Moth fly very well? Probably not. Could this guy fly at all? Probably not. So I don't think you should... That's not a fair comparison. I mean, are we going to play the numbers game on this one is what it sounds like. It sure looks like it, doesn't it? Yeah, it sounds like that's what we're doing.

I am disappointed. I mean, honestly, this guy couldn't give a shit about it. Part of the reason they put him too low because he's a shitting him. Yeah. It's a terrible name. Yeah, like I said, it is a steep drop after. two-face. Yeah. Well, there was only two after two-face, so. Yeah, true. But we go, Riddler,

Two-Face, and then these two. Riddler and Two-Face are big, big deals. Yeah. You know, Riddler, Two-Face, like... So, So before we do a recap, unfficially, because he's not here, Mr. Freeze, looking at what we have in front of us, where are we put in freeze? A-tier? Me and John both said A-tier. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I would, you know, seeing everybody lined up, and is why I wanted to do it this way, I would put him in A tier, but I just don't see him that significantly better than like a death stroke. But I will, I would say A tier. Okay. Let's say Mr. B's in A tier. I would say A tier. I'm happy with that.

Yep. All right. So to recap, because that's our official Smart Avengers Batman tier list. some of it under duress, some of it under agreement, but we got here regardless. S tier, we have Joker, the Ridler, and Two-Face. A tier, we have Rayshaw Gould, Bain, Catwoman, Penguin, and Poison Ivy. B tier, we have Killer Croc, Deathstroke, The Terminator, Scarecrow, Harley Quinn, and the Court of Owls. C tier, we have Deadshot, Hush, Hugo Strange, and the Red Hood.

D tier, we have Manbat, the Mad Hatter, Professor Pig, Solomon Grundy, Black Mask and Mr. Zaz and F-tier, we have Killer Moth, Firefly, and the Ventriloquist. Is there anything that you guys want to revisit, anything that you feel like you could convince someone to shift their opinion on? Where do we stand? What do you think, John?

I mean, I still think Jason Todd's rank too high, but I feel like I'm not going to be able to convince you guys that he does not deserve to be C-tier. I just think it's again, it's that element of knowing that, you know, look, look who he's beside. He's beside Hugo Strange and Hush, two other guys who know that Bruce Wayne is Batman. And this is a guy who knows him because Bruce trained him. Mm-hmm. Okay, because the one I was going to get to ask was Penguin.

Like I said, you got me to go from B to A. I'm not, I cannot go higher than that for Penguin. But it's really, though, it's really yes, here. John? I would be happy to put him in S-tier, but like seeing him lined up with Poison Ivy Catwoman Bain, Rachel Gaw. I think, you know, he doesn't feel out of place amongst those people. Think about the first three Batman films. Who were the villains in it? Joker, Penguin, Two-Face. Penguin in a characterization that is not like anything else he's ever been in.

A Two-Face in a characterization he's never been in? Dark Night was like the Dark Night is long Halloween for all tens of purposes. I was talking about the first three films. Oh, you're talking about Tommy Lee Jones. Correct. Who admittedly did not really like doing that movie at all and said he had no room for Jim Carrey's buffoonery. Correct. He was basically playing Two-Face like Jack Nicholson played the Joker, though.

Yeah, he was playing really strange. That's what I'm saying. Because he was just playing generic insane man. It was not the same characterization. Well, neither was what I'm saying. But like, pay one. has only had one portrayal and it was Danny DeVito and it was nothing like anything it's ever been in the comics but it was great but errant Eckhart played it was great played the long Halloween two face in dark

and what also you're saying is Colin Farrell has been playing the penguin and his portrayal is more comic accurate and it's also great yes but he's played penguins as opposed to one great two phase he's he's playing no you're playing one it is no because I wouldn't say that he played a accurate Penguin in the Batman, a movie you have not seen. No. Okay. But yes, he is subservant to John Titoro in that movie, which is like he said, right where he kind of belongs. In the Batman, sorry, in the Penguin TV series, so he kind of maneuvers his way through

the criminal underworld until he's pretty much in charge of it by the end. That's pretty great to me. But that's exactly where he is. He's a crime boss. He is not in the, he's not, I'm going to take over Gotham City like a Joker or Ridler. He does not have the personal connection to Batman like a two-face. He is right where he belongs. I would say of anything, it's a gift for him to be that close to Raishal Ghul.

That is an outrageous thing to say. And you should feel ashamed yourself. I did not, I did not know that we were going to be fighting this hotly about Penguin, but here we are. Oh yeah. Dude, this is, this is a stick of point. I mean, it is what it is. I, you know, that seems to be the case. I'm looking very forward to now doing this with like Spider-Man villains

because I'm going to be completely out of my fucking depth on those. Yeah. How many villains did we put into this list? Good number. See, what, three. And that is, so that's nine, ten. 15, 20, yes.

John, do you think we could just narrow it down to 25 Spider-Man villains? Boy, let me tell you something real quick. I was going to say, like, I don't think we could do 25 Batman, Spider-Man villains, but looking at this list, like, some of these choices were really weird. Like, I don't know if you would have put Mr. Pig

on a list like this previously and not included Mr. Freeze. Yeah. No, I would have... Some of the choices were odd. Yeah. Like I could see someone making this list and not including Solomon Grundy, Professor Pig, Firefly, and maybe Ventriloquist.

I could see them not putting Firefly on. Solomon Grundy, I think, would have been on the list somewhere. I mean, he was an original Green Lantern villain. Okay. I think I would have put him on the list, though. Yeah. So, yeah, no, it'll be interesting when we revisit this concept of like Spider-Man villains or like we do like X-Men because that one's going to be wild.

Sure. Yep. Exactly. But. Me and Corey rank Magneto really low. Somebody gets really annoyed about that. It's real. Someone gets real unhappy with us because we rank Magneto low and it's like, well, I mean, he

did turn into a baby that one time. I have to take points off for turning it to a baby. You know the rules. All right, folks. That's going to do us for today. John, we're on your movie count. I have watched 247 movies so far. this year.

What's your last one? It was Mississippi Burning with the late great Gene Hackman and Willem Defoe. Was that intentional because of the passing of Gene Hackman?

It's just coincidental. It's sort of coincidental. Like I do have a lot of Gene Hackman movies on my watch list that I would very much like to get to, but it's also this movie was about to leave Amazon Prime UK in the next few days.

So I had to sneak it in there pretty quick. That's fair. Dylan, what's going on in the world? Actually, real quick, though, John, if people want to see what your thoughts on Mississippi Burning is, where can they go find those? They can find it on letterboxed at Big Jombowski. Oh, one word. And Dog the Bounty Hunter's cousin.

How does it go with Dog these days? he's really good man he's doing really well um we gave him a bath with like special dog shampoo and his coat is looking really shiny and we're very happy about that you know he's really like putting the fear of god and all the villains he has to fight now because they see him and they're so scared because they think he's going to be like this uncouth big villain but then they see him and like he looks beautiful well so i guess arrested by a beautiful man well and then he also like tries to get you know convert them to Christianity whenever he does like apprehend them but that's because they're all sinners Corey yeah you gotta get got to get right with uh Christ bra those are the

rules I don't know if that's in the Bible I don't know I just remember like the very little times I watched the dog the brownie hunter show no matter who he ended up apprehending there was always a scene where he gives them a cigarette goes you got to get right with Christ bra nice to give him a cigarette yeah she Lord and save your brother yeah what Jesus would have won did. But does anything going on in the world of captain exploding these days? Not really. That's fair. Off we go. Off we go. So I have my other show, large old cup. Been a little bit of a break as of late with it, but oh well, we'll get back to it when we get back to it. Until next time, though, which I think fingers crossed, I have some ideas of stuff to do.

Yeah. We'll see you all next time. Goodbye. See later. Bye-bye. There it is.