The Spy Who - The Spy Who Defused the Missile Crisis | Hero or Madman? | 2

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

After months of missed opportunities, the CIA and MI6 are about to meet Penkovsky. But with Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev squaring up to the US President John F. Kennedy over West Berlin, his information could have thermonuclear consequences.Listen to The Spy Who ad-free on Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-spy-who now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. April 1961. The Mount Royal Hotel, near Marble Arch, London. Oleg Penkovsky sits at the large dinner table surrounded by the other members of the Soviet science delegation he leads. It's the first night of their trip to London. Drinks are flowing and the mood is celebratory. Penkovsky looks past the empty wine bottles littering the table

and catches the eye of Greville Wynne, the British businessman who is helping MI6 make contact with him. Wynne glances at his watch and shoots Penkovsky a pointed look. Penkovsky pretends not to notice. He was due to meet his CIA and MI6 contacts upstairs in room 360 over 20 minutes ago. But to leave the dinner early would arouse suspicion. One of the Soviet delegates

raises his glass. Comrades, a toast to the success of our mission here in London. Na zdrovje! Na zdrovje! Penkovsky knocks back his glass along with everyone else at the table, then stands. Well, gentlemen, it's a busy day tomorrow. I think I'll head up to bed.

But, comrade, we haven't even toasted the health of Premier Khrushchev. Penkovsky scans the faces of his fellow delegates. He urgently wants to go meet MI6 and the CIA, but he also has to assume that at least one of these men is monitoring the group for the KGB. Refusing to drink to the Soviet leader's health is exactly the type of insult that might get reported. Penkovsky smiles and refills his glass. To Premier Khrushchev. To Khrushchev.

To Khrushchev. To Khrushchev. Forty minutes and several toasts later, Pankowski is in the elevator after finally extricating himself from the celebration. The elevator doors open and he steps out into the second floor corridor. He walks straight past his own room, slips into the fire exit stairwell and races up to the third floor. Penkovsky checks if the corridor is clear. But just as he steps through the door,

the elevator pings. He throws himself back into the stairwell. Through the glass in the door, he sees it's just a young couple heading to their room. Penkovsky waits for them to pass, then slips back into the corridor and knocks twice on the door of room 360. He waits a moment, then knocks again.

A man in a black suit opens the door and motions him inside. Penkovsky strides into the room and smiles at the joint CIA and MI6 team waiting inside. Good evening, gentlemen. I believe we have a nuclear war to stop. From Wondery, I'm Indra Varma, and this is The Spy Who. On the last episode, Oleg Pinkovsky, an officer in the Soviet military intelligence agency, the GRU, offered to provide the US with the USSR's nuclear secrets. But after months of failed attempts to make contact with him,

the CIA turned to Britain's MI6 for help. Now they're face-to-face with Penkovsky for the first time, and they need to figure out whether he's for real or just part of some elaborate ruse you're listening to the spy who diffused the missile crisis episode 2 hero or madman April 1961, Room 360, the Mount Royal Hotel, London. Joe Bulik, head of Soviet operations at the CIA, rises from his chair and looks Oleg Penkovsky up and down. He spent months trying to connect with Penkovsky.

Now they're finally face to face. Penkovsky looks at the four men in the room. Who is the CIA commander? Bulik steps forward. I am. Name's Jim Welk. And this is my colleague, George Adam. I assume these are not your real names. Good. That is better.

Why has it taken so long for you to arrange this meeting? I made contact with your embassy months ago. Do you know the risk for me? For us all? The whole world might be at stake here. Mr. Penkovsky, I assure you, every effort was made. We had to be sure that our method of contacting you was safe because of the risk to you. Penkovsky simply nods, then turns to Harold Shergold and Michael Stokes. Then I assume you gentlemen are from MI6. Shergold, who leads the mission for MI6, gives a nod. Good. Then start your tape recorder. I have much to tell you. Over the next two hours, Penkovsky and the CIA MI6 team huddle around the hotel room's coffee table as the tape recorder runs and the pile of empty white wine bottles grow.

Penkovsky reveals secret after secret. All high-value, ultra-confidential Soviet intelligence. The team is already stunned. But Penkovsky is just getting started. You don't understand. Khrushchev is not just a bad leader. He is a madman. He's like Hitler, but an atomic Hitler. He will lead the world to complete destruction. He's ready to risk nuclear war, just not to appear weak. Maybe he'll do it because of Berlin, or maybe over Cuba. You should know that in Cuba he's already arming Castro, and soon he will put missiles there. Bulik cuts in. How do you know this about Cuba? I'm a colonel in the GRU. I have high-level access to military secrets. But also, Marshal Varenstauf, the head of the Soviet

missile program, he is like a father to me. He tells me things that come straight from military command. Penkovsky pauses to take a large gulp of wine before continuing. But this is what your new President Kennedy doesn't understand. Khrushchev lies. He lies like a grey stallion. He claims that we have advanced missiles, that we have more missiles than the US. It's all lies. We are years behind you. America is stronger than the USSR,

but you don't even know it. President Kennedy must stand up to him. Now is the time to call Khrushchev's bluff. Bulik is in shock. This is a complete reversal of everything that American intelligence agencies believe about the Soviet Union's nuclear capabilities. Only last year, Kennedy even made the missile gap between the USSR and USA a central part of his election campaign. But if Khrushchev doesn't have enough missiles, why would he risk pushing the West to war?

Penkovsky's eyes flash angrily at the interruption. Bulik's CIA colleague, George Kieswalter, notices immediately and quickly steps in. Apologies, Colonel Penkovsky. Please, go on. Khrushchev doesn't have the missiles now, but he knows he cannot appear weak. We are maybe 18 months from having full intercontinental strike capability.

That is why now, now, is the time to challenge Khrushchev. Penkovsky locks eyes with Bulik and presses his point home. You should attack now, and I know how. There are a few key points in Moscow that with small, one-megaton nuclear devices, you could completely disable the Soviet military command. I know these places. I could plant the devices.

It would be an honor to serve as a soldier in that way. If we strike now, we can win the war instantly. Bulik is rendered almost speechless by the audacity of Penkovsky's proposal. He stammers out a response. Are you suggesting a nuclear attack on Moscow? Shergold, MI6's senior agent handler, steps in to diffuse the situation. If I may, the idea of a targeted nuclear first strike is certainly an interesting option. Why don't you let us consult with some of our superiors about that? Yes, take it to your commanders.

When I meet the Queen, she can give me a medal for this service. Uliq and Shergold's eyes meet across the table. Neither sure whether the man before them is the greatest intelligence asset of all time or a madman trying to start World War III. Four hours later, it's 2am, and the streets of central London are quiet, apart from Bulik and Shergold. They're wandering away from the hotel where they met Penkovsky, and dumping the wine bottles and other evidence of their meeting with him into street bins as they go.

Bulik double-checks they're alone, then turns to Shergold. So, what do we make of our new friend? Certainly an intense chap, isn't he? You got that right. But what I mean is, is he for real? If the Soviets are behind in the arms race, that's huge. But, I don't know, could he be a KGB plant? I had the same thought obviously but there's simply no way

the KGB would offer such high level intelligence simply as a provocation I think he may just be the real thing that idea to attack Moscow with nukes though is he crazy? yes that part was less than optimal I agree also I just can't

figure out why he's doing this. Hating Khrushchev doesn't seem like enough of a reason. In my experience, agents often claim to be acting out of idealism or ideology. Generally, though, there's a more personal and usually grubbier reason underneath. The following evening, back in room 360 of the Mount Royal Hotel, Shergold and the rest of the CIA and MI6 teams are once

again huddled around the table with Penkovsky. In front of them is a ring binder full of photos of Soviet officials. Penkovsky is methodically going through these images, pointing out which ones are secret agents. This man here, he is GRU. Also, this one, he trained at the academy, probably an agent by now. Shergold and Bulik lock eyes in astonishment. Penkovsky has just identified several dozen Soviet intelligence officers. Both MI6 and the CIA have hundreds more photos of suspected spies they want him to look through, but Bulik's got other concerns.

Thanks, Oleg. Let's hold on to that and go back to the nuclear situation. Yes, Khrushchev is obsessed with missiles. It is all he talks about. He is putting so much effort into the missile program that the rest of the army is left without resources. The generals have to take a pay cut. Everyone is furious. Are you saying there is a morale crisis in the Soviet military?

Not just in the military. Across the whole country. The roads are broken. The factories do not produce. But all Khrushchev will invest in is missiles. This is why the KGB controls the population. Why we cannot have freedom. In the Lubyanka, do you know how the KGB controls the population, why we cannot have freedom. In the Lubyanka,

do you know how the KGB torture people? They tie them to a chair and release starved rats into the room to gnaw at them. Bulik and Shergold share a horrified glance before Bulik tentatively responds. Oleg, are you not afraid that that is what might happen to you? I mean, why are you doing this?

Penkovsky pours himself a drink before replying. My father, he disappeared when I was two years old. My mother told me he died of typhus. But then, as I was rising in the GRU, KGB agents uncovered that my father had actually fought against the communists in the revolution. He was what they call a white Russian. This means I will never be a general.

I will be stuck as a colonel forever. So, if I cannot be a general for them, I will be a general for you. Together we will stop this madman, Khrushchev, and I will be the greatest spy of all time. Shergold places a reassuring hand on Penkovsky's arm. Colonel Penkovsky, we cannot express how grateful our government, both our governments, are for your service here. You are a true soldier for the free world. Penkovsky's eyes shine at these words.

Shergold observes him closely, quietly satisfied that he has discovered what makes this agent tick. Penkovsky needs to feel that he is acting honorably as an officer for a new cause. And once he gets that recognition, he will serve that cause no matter the mortal danger it puts him in.

It's a few evenings later and Penkovsky and Greville Wynne are in a fashionable nightclub in London's West End. Wynne is now an essential link between MI6 and Penkovsky. He's the only Westerner Penkovsky can meet without raising suspicion. And that's because the GRU believes Penkovsky is using him to gain information about British industry. As a jazz band plays, Penkovsky's eyes follow the club's alluring hostesses as they pass by their table. He raises his glass.

Greville, my friend, we are doing great things. Together, we will change the world. The men clink glasses and down their drinks. Penkovsky reaches into his jacket pocket, withdraws a piece of paper and slides it across to Wynne. But, my friend, there are certain things I need from London. You must buy them for me, please. Wynne picks up the list and reads.

Lipstick, perfume, pop music records, testosterone pills. Oleg, I'm not your errand boy. Greville, you don't understand. My superiors in Moscow know that I have been to London. If I don't return with gifts, it will be a grave insult. These things we cannot get in the USSR, but if I bring them back, then many doors will open for me. Those pills.

They are for Marshal Varensov himself. This is exactly how I get information for the mission. Oh, right. I understand. Well, then, yes, by all means. If it will help things along in Moscow, then, of course, I will help. Is there anything else you need? At that moment, an exceptionally beautiful hostess sashays by. Penkovsky watches her intently as she passes. Wynne leans over to Penkovsky. You know, if you'd like a rendezvous with her, I think it can be arranged. Greville, you are a good friend. Pinkovsky slaps Wynne on the back and moves to refill their glasses. Wynne smiles, though he's now becoming unsure of just how principled a soldier of freedom his new friend truly is. April 1961.

Alexandria, Virginia. A warehouse near the CIA's headquarters. At the loading bay, the CIA analyst carries the last cardboard box full of top-secret documents out of the van and dumps it onto his trolley. He then pushes the trolley through the doors and into the heart of the warehouse. Inside, there are row after row of desks with teams of analysts, translators and typists furiously transcribing and analysing the intelligence gleaned from Penkovsky's debriefs in London. The analyst pushes his trolley over to the desk where his superior officer is working. The officer looks at his trolley with horror.

More? How much can one source be giving us? Yeah. Can't imagine we've never seen anything like it. How's your cross-checking looking? The officer gestures to his desk where he is comparing Penkovsky's information to the CIA's own spy plane photos. Look at this.

This here's the training manual for the R-12 missile launcher we received from the source in London. This here's the training manual for the R-12 missile launcher we received from the source in London, and here's the photos from our surveillance flights over Russia. It matches. Everything checks out. Incredible. Yeah.

But the main concern now is security. This guy is giving us so much. We're going to have to give him multiple code names and pretend he's multiple sources just to protect him from the KGB. But that would need entire teams working out the story for each fake agent and making sure the cover holds. Yeah, I know. The officer pauses, surveying the frantic activity around them.

And we're going to need a bigger warehouse. The following day, the Midland Hotel, Birmingham, England. It's the second week of Oleg Penkovsky and his Soviet delegation's visit to Britain, and they're now in Birmingham visiting the local steel factories. But while the rest of the delegation sleep, Penkovsky's secretly meeting with the CIA and MI6 teams who followed him north to continue learning all they can

before he returns to Moscow. MI6 agent handler Shergold tops up Penkovsky's glass of white wine as the Russian agent spills more intel. I visited the Soviet embassy here in London before we came here and they were greatly concerned by President Kennedy's hard line against our military support for Cuba. This is good. It means the pressure is working. The CIA's head of Soviet operations, Joe Bulek, smiles.

That's useful to know. The CIA's head of Soviet operations, Joe Bulek, smiles. That's useful to know. Now, Oleg, we have something for you. For when you get back to Moscow. Bulek reaches into his pocket and pulls out a tiny Minox spy camera. This is the best camera in the world for covertly photographing documents. It's tiny, so very easy to conceal. But it does make a noise when you take a photograph, so be careful.

Bulik takes a snap of Penkovsky to underscore his point. Penkovsky is visibly excited. This is excellent. I can provide you so much material with this. That's our hope. We're particularly interested in the Soviet publication Military Theory. We know there are two versions, the public one and the secret military version. Can you get us pictures of the secret copy? It is good you know military theory, but there are not two versions. There are three. There is the secret one.

Then there is also the top secret one that only the highest level commanders get. That is the one I will get for you. But then Penkovsky's grin fades. But how will I get these photographs to you once I'm in Moscow? Shergold tackles the question. When Greville Wynne makes his next trip to Moscow, you can give him the undeveloped film. He'll get it to the British embassy. We can then send it out of the Soviet Union in a diplomatic bag. No, no, no! Gentlemen, that is not good enough. I will have far too much material. You must find a way for

me to get the photographs to you without having to wait for Greville to visit Moscow. I understand. We shall explore options and come up with a solution. Good. Also, I was sent here by the GRU to gather information on British steel technology. You must give me intelligence to pass back to them.

Whether it's true or not, it has to be believable. That is how I will maintain my position there. We have that in hand. You'll have it at our next meeting. Excellent. I will be the greatest secret soldier you have. I should be presented to our leaders. One day the Queen shall give me medals and President Kennedy will shake my hand. Penkovsky raises a glass and drinks, buzzing with excitement. But as he sips his wine, Shergold reassesses his opinion of Penkovsky. The intelligence he's providing is priceless, but his expectations of audiences with the Queen and the President hint at delusions of grandeur that will make keeping him in check near impossible.

Two days later, central London. Boulik and Shergold wander through St. James's Park. Shergold checks they are safely away from the crowd so they can speak freely. So when our friend gets back to Moscow, this is who we figured out he can pass his material on to. Shergold hands Bulik a black and white photo of a young woman surrounded by three children. This is Janet Chisholm. She's the wife of one of our people in Moscow. She was formerly a secretary at MI6, so she knows how to handle discrete matters. A secretary? Are you crazy? She's not even a trained agent. What's she going to do, smuggle top-secret documents in her kid's pram? That is rather what I had in mind, yes. Look, anyone even vaguely connected to us over there will be under heavy surveillance.

But as far as the Soviets are concerned, Janet is just a diplomat's wife. Even the KGB wouldn't suspect her. I don't like it. And your last traitor, George Blake, couldn't he have dropped the name Chisholm to the Soviets? Shergold bridles at Bulik, bringing up Blake. Blake might have infiltrated MI6 for the Soviets, but Shergold was the interrogator who got him to confess. With all due respect, do you have anyone on the ground in Moscow? If I recall, your trained agent failed to even make contact with Penkovsky. I have a feeling our secretary

might prove more effective than you think. Bulik holds up his hands in resignation. Well, I guess we're going to find out. I just hope you know what you're doing. May 5th, 1961. Room 360, the Mount Royal Hotel. It's Penkovsky's last night in London. Tomorrow, he and the Soviet delegation fly back to Moscow. And now the focus isn't on what else he can reveal, but how to run him in Moscow,

a city where the KGB have eyes and ears everywhere. Penkovsky listens as Shergold explains his plan. We have arranged a new contact for you to deliver intelligence to in Moscow. The next time Grevel Wynne visits, he will show you a photo of a woman he will call his wife. That woman will be your contact. Excellent. We will have to meet each week. I will have a lot of material to pass on, more than you have ever seen. Bulik interjects. Oleg, in a few weeks,

President Kennedy and Khrushchev will meet in Vienna to discuss the future of Berlin. We all know if those talks go wrong, it could set us on a path to nuclear war. So we need you to get us anything you can get about this. I know about this conference.

I will get you everything I can. But listen, if I have to escape, if I am under suspicion, what should I do? George Kieswalter, Bulik's deputy, replies. You should get yourself and your family to East Berlin. We can extract you from there. That will not work. I would never be allowed across the border if I'm under suspicion. A brief silence falls as everyone present

faces up to just how dangerous Penkovsky's position will be back in Moscow. Shergold clears his throat. Oleg, if you have any suspicion at all that you're being watched, you should stop work immediately. Bulik nods in agreement. That's right, I'd rather not hear from you for a year than have you put yourself at unnecessary risk. Penkovsky gives Zorai a smile. He knows that once he's back in Moscow, he'll be on his own. These are the choices we all must make in times of war. Come, gentlemen, let us take a picture together to mark this historic work. Someday there will be a plaque in this room to celebrate what we have achieved.

The men gather together and smile as Kiesvolter takes a photo to commemorate the moment. But they all know that as soon as Penkovsky returns to Moscow, the game they are playing will enter a dangerous new phase. One where the slightest mistake could prove fatal. May 1961, Moscow. Penkovsky strides into the artillery command library inside the Soviet Ministry of Defense. He approaches the guard on duty and flashes his GRU identity card. Take me to the special collection. The guard snaps to attention and leads Penkovsky through a series of corridors before unlocking the door to a small room. The moment Penkovsky is inside, he closes the door and wedges a chair against it.

He pulls several large files down from the shelf. Then he takes out the Minox camera the CIA gave him. He begins snapping photos of each page in turn. He works quickly and accurately, each page of the secret files captured in a single shot. But then he hears footsteps outside the door. He freezes, stuffing the camera back in his pocket. After a moment, the footsteps pass by. Penkovsky breathes a sigh of relief and resumes his work. Three weeks later, Penkovsky walks towards the enormous statue of Karl Marx in Theatre Square, Moscow. Under the statue, Greville Wynne is waiting to meet him.

The two men shake hands warmly and move off together. It is wonderful to see you, Greville. Tell me, how is your wife? She is very well, thank you. Would you like to see a photo of her? Wynne pulls out the black and white photo of Janet Chisholm, Penkovsky's new MI6 contact in Moscow. Penkovsky takes a close look at the photo, then hands it back. He checks the surroundings to reassure himself no one's within

earshot. And where are we to meet? She'll be at the park on Svetnoy Boulevard, July 2nd at 2.30pm with her children. Bring a tin of ABBC Draget sweets. Offer them to the children. She'll take care of the rest. Penkovsky nods that he has understood the instructions and the two men circle back towards the crowds again. It's June 25th, 1961. And at a dacha on the northern outskirts of Moscow,

Penkovsky and his father figure, Sergei Varensov, stand on the porch. Varensov just got promoted to chief marshal, and to celebrate, he's invited Penkovsky and other close friends to his weekend home. And he's feeling especially friendly to Penkovsky and other close friends to his weekend home. And he's feeling especially friendly to Penkovsky right now. My friend, I want to thank you for the gifts you got for us during your trip to London. My wife appreciated the perfume, not to mention those pills you brought back for me. Penkovsky smiles. It is no problem. You have helped me so much over the years. I also hear good things about the information you gathered about British steel technology. This will do your career a lot of good. I am glad to hear that. I now hope to write an article for

military theory. Really? What about? Missile strategy? A fine idea. Missile strategy is a timely topic. It is Khrushchev's top priority, especially after he humiliated Kennedy at the conference in Vienna. He made that pup of a president yield over the division of Berlin. I am told Kennedy acted like a scared little boy. That would have been glorious to see, indeed. The Americans always back down when faced with strength. Soon we will push them into recognizing

East Germany. Then we will restrict travel in and out of Berlin. We'll build a wall if we have to. They won't know what's happening before it's too late. Such firmness is necessary. Yes, it is, of course, a risk. But we believe there will be no major war and the West will back down. All this makes missile strategy very important. Tell me, is there anything I can do to help with your article? Well, access to the secret collection at the GRU library. That would greatly help my research. Consider it done, my friend. Penkovsky maintains

his outer calm, but inside he's delighted at gaining access to even more secret documents. But he's also frantically calculating how he can alert the CIA and MI6 about these new plans Khrushchev has for Berlin before a full-blown crisis breaks out. July 1961. The White House, Washington, D.C. In the Oval Office, CIA Chief Alan Dulles notices the suspicion in President John F. Kennedy's eyes. Dulles knows Kennedy now regards him and the entire CIA as a liability. Back in April, the CIA masterminded an invasion of Cuba, led by an army of Cuban exiles who landed at the Bay of Pigs.

The operation unraveled disastrously. Then the CIA's involvement went public, embarrassing Kennedy on the world stage. But today, Dulles hopes to win back the president's support, with help from Penkovsky. Sir, I'm pleased to say we at the CIA have a new asset within the Soviet intelligence hierarchy, an agent we've codenamed Hero. He has been giving us unprecedented levels of information. Information which radically changes our view of Soviet nuclear capabilities.

Dulles hands Kennedy a manila envelope containing selected highlights of the intelligence provided by Penkovsky. Kennedy studies the documents inside and then looks at Dulles. Alan, what I'm seeing here completely discredits the idea that the Soviets have more nuclear weapons than we do. That's the opposite of what you and everyone else

has been telling me right up until this moment. If anything, sir, what this new source indicates is that there is a missile gap in our favor. But the Soviets are trying like hell to close it. Hero claims the Soviets are roughly 15 months away from nuclear parity. Until then, we have nuclear superiority. So if you're going to face down Khrushchev, now's the time to do it. I campaigned on the idea that the Soviets had more nukes than us. If you now want me to completely reverse that position, you better be damn sure of this source.

Do you trust this guy? Sir, everything he has given us so far has checked out to the letter. We've never had access to this kind of information before. It's completely unprecedented. Alan, if this is another Bay of Pigs, I swear I'll bury the CIA forever. Are you absolutely sure about this? Dulles pauses to consider the gravity of the question before answering. I do trust him, sir. Everything Hero's given us that we have been able to cross-check

has proved correct. I believe he is right and that you should stand firm with the Soviets. If I do this, if I face down Khrushchev over Berlin, and you're wrong, you know what that means for the whole world. Now both men pause as the full weight of the choices before them begins to become clear. Penkovsky's evidence seems to demand that Kennedy calls Khrushchev's bluff. But if Penkovsky is wrong, or if he is a KGB triple agent, then the whole world could go up in flames. Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early

and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah?

Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. Aie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it.

That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. From Wondery. This is the second episode in our series, The Spy Who Diffused the Missile Crisis. A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly far back in history,

but our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research. We've used various sources to make this series, including Dead Drop by Jeremy Duns and The Spy Who Saved the World by Gerald Schechter and Peter Derryabin The Spy Who is hosted by me, Indra Varma

Our show is produced by Vespucci and written and story edited by Yellow Ant for Wondery For Yellow Ant, this episode was written by J.S. Raffaele, story edited by Karen Lowe and researched by Louise Byrne. Our managing producer is Jay Priest. For Vespucci,

our senior producers are Natalia Rodriguez and Philippa Gearing. Our sound designer is Ivor Manley. Thomas Currie is the supervising producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesound Sync.

Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkin. Executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.