The Spy Who - The Spy Who Killed a Prime Minister | Lumumba's Grandson on Legacy, Loss and the Weight of a Name | 5

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Amory Lumumba was born long after the 1961 assassination of his grandfather. Yet the impact continues to ripple through his family today. Actor and spy novelist Charlie Higson speaks with Amory about the heavy responsibility of carrying the Lumumba name, and the enduring, inspirational legacy that Patrice Lumumba left behind. Plus, Amory tells Charlie why he's convinced the United States were involved in the killing.Listen to The Spy Who ad-free on Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-spy-who now.Have you got a spy story you’d like us to tell? Email your ideas to [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. From Wondery, I'm Charlie Higson final episode of The Spy Who Killed a Prime Minister. These days, Patrice Emery Lumumba, the first Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, is a symbol of African independence, anti-colonialism and resistance to Western imperialism. His vision of a united, self-determined Africa and his assassination in 1961, aged just 35, transformed him into an icon, inspiring generations of African leaders and activists to speak up against outside influence.

Elements of Patrice's death are still shrouded in mystery and there's no denying the spies in our story. CIA officer Larry Devlin and MI6 officer Daphne Park played a significant part in his demise. In this episode, I'm going to speak to Amory Kalema Pasa Lumumba, Patrice's grandson. He's had to live with a heavy aftershock of what happened 63 years ago. His father was Francois Lumumba, the eldest of Patrice's children. This is the story of Patrice Lumumba's assassination, but from a very personal perspective. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal.

Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal

wherever you listen to your podcasts. Amory, thanks so much for joining me. We're here to talk about Patrice Lumumba, the man many know as the first prime minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And he grew up under oppressive Belgian colonial rule and his legacy is vast. But to you, he was your grandfather. You were born after his passing. But what do you first remember hearing about him as you grew up? First, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. And first, I'd like to state that obviously I'm not a historian, but this is my family legacy. And I think that gives me grounds to talk about it freely, sometimes in an emotive way, sometimes in a critical way as well. The first memory I have about him, I would say I'm fortunate enough

to be born in that Congolese culture where you actually talk to your ancestors. So at times when I was maybe sent in my room to maybe think, I would be advised to talk to him. So I would be told, go in your room, talk to your grandfather. Obviously, as a child, you find it odd because you don't get answers back. But then after that, growing up, you started to get answers.

Whenever I had some difficult decision to take, I would talk to him and seek his guidance. And that helped me a lot in my life. And I'm quite certain that it also has helped my cousins, my brothers and sisters. And I guess you're always at the same time wanting to hang on to that connection, that he's not just this sort of iconic figure, that he was part of your family. I mean, did you have any possessions or anything to connect you personally with your grandfather? Possessions, not so much because he didn't die a wealthy man. They left the country in very difficult conditions.

And obviously the different authorities that were there at the time were seeing them as threats, in a way, political threats, because they were carrying the legacy of that great man. So your father was Francois? Yes, my father is the eldest. Yeah, and so how old was he when he had to flee from Congo? He was 10. He was 10. So him and his brothers and sisters,

he is the one that actually had the most vivid memories, especially when it comes to the conditions. They had to leave DRC, President Nasser of Egypt back in the days, and made up some authentic false passports for them to pass as Egyptian. So they could leave the country and then they lived under his goodwill for quite some time in Egypt. So where did you grow up? So I was born in Belgium in 1991. It's very interesting that you ended up in Belgium, considering the pretty awful part that the Belgians had played as to what had happened to your grandfather and your family.

Yes, it is very weird. One thing I got to understand is that even though what I did was terrible, my dad always told me that I should be, how can I say this? It's not about being grateful. It's just that you have to understand and recognize the different moments of our life and what was brought to you

in these different steps so the early education i had in belgium the comfort we had you have to understand that okay it is coming from a country and maybe a generation that doesn't have a lot to do with what has happened with your grandfather. So you have to dissociate that. But at the same time, you need to hold them accountable for what was the responsibility of the state at the time. So obviously, I'm grateful that I was able to be brought up in certain conditions. And I'm also happy that I came back to Africa soon enough because it's a very conflictual situation to be in a country where everything is reminding of the fact that you

don't really belong to the society. And the name Lumumba, obviously your grandfather's surname, your family name, essentially it became a curse in DRC after the assassination. Yeah. If you talk to someone who is in their 60s, in their 70s, and that's an exercise I do quite often, I ask them about what they learned at school. Was he mentioned, et cetera. And yes, he's mentioned, but very lightly, very broadly to make sure that his name would not surpass the name of Mobutu. And what is quite interesting is that in 2022, when we came back for his burial, when we came back with his remainings, it was the youth outside. He was the youth. He was the youth, even though that youth has never been taught about him deeply at school.

A lot of these young people didn't go to school because of the failures of our education system. But still, they had that fire in them. They still recognize him as one of their own because we have to remember that

he died in his 30s. So he was a young man. He died a young man and he fought as a young man. So he came with nothing and he left with nothing because he was not a wealthy man. So that's something people are feeling close to. They recognize that he is one of our own. Mobutu and Patrice were friends. Patrice put him in charge of the armed forces before Mobutu staged a coup and played a part in the assassination.

So why was Patrice such a threat to Mobutu? First of all, he was a threat for his own ambition. Mobutu was also for the sovereignty, to some extent, of the country. I'm quite certain that he wanted the country to thrive, to develop. ideology. It's not always about economics. It's not always about these philosophical aspects. Sometimes it comes down to my ambition against yours, me feeling like I'm being overlooked, me being your secretary, maybe me feeling like I wasn't consulted for that decision or that other decision. And it's important to not neglect that aspect because it's a very strong aspect that sometimes research and academics overlook because that doesn't fall into these big ideas about philosophy, economics and everything. Now, Patrice was only 34 when he became prime minister and was seeking help from America.

Amri, you are his grandson. How old are you now? About to be 33. All right, so you're very close to how old Patrice was when he took charge of the country. Has that changed how you understand his story? I mean, you touched before on the fact that he was and is now very much perceived as a young man,

a force for the young. Yes, it helps to understand that what he did was immense at that age, taking these risks. It's surprising that someone that young had this will, but also this knowledge, this intelligence in a climate where education was not the priority of the colonial rule. And that's also one of the main symbols of Patrice-Emile Mumba. Because back in the days, in the Belgian colony, it was one of the only countries where the colonizer made sure that nobody would study past high school level.

So it wasn't allowed for people to study. So it's very important to modernize the essence of what people can get from the journey of Patsy Slumumba. It's not just a political journey. It's when we are talking about independence should be understood in a broader sense. So it's not just political independence, it's economic independence. And it's also how do I make sure that the conditions I was born in are not a trap? How do I escape from this? I know I cannot count on the state, so I have to count on myself. When he was going, when Patrice Lumba was going in the white neighborhoods and he was looking for some books in the trash, that was self-determination. That's how he managed to

read about the French Revolution, about the Russian Revolution, about the American Revolution. And that kind of fueled his ideas and his convictions about what the future of the country should be. And I'd also like just to add quickly that just because he was young, because he's often depicted as someone that was not rational, that was a bit explosive. And it was not the case. It was not the case. He was a very composed man by the testimony of all the people that met him.

Do you ever feel angry about what happened to your grandfather and the lost opportunities? Angry, angry no. Because when we are studying history, it's not surprising. It's not a new practice. At the same time, what is troubling is that he was not assassinated just because he was a revolutionary. He had a political agenda.

He had a proper political agenda. He had some priorities. He had his own philosophy about the place of the African women in the society. So I can't help but thinking where would be the Congo if he managed to go through that crisis,

that crisis where he tried to maintain the state united. And that was eventually fatal to him. I mean, it's interesting that you can be so philosophical about this. I don't think anyone would blame you for getting angry. You know, this is a family member. I mean, I'm trying to think how I would feel in that situation. Yes, but I mean, I'm sure some other people in my family are more angry,

but I'm looking forward. But moving forward doesn't mean forgetting the past. It's take the lessons from the past and keep the struggle moving forward because it's still a struggle. Various outside forces plotted to undermine Patrice. I mean, how much do you now believe that the U.S. was involved in the plot to assassinate your grandfather? And particularly this idea that President Eisenhower seemed to give the order? The U.S. was as involved as it's possible to be.

Meaning that when we are talking about an assassination, when we're talking about the Cold War, it's not just the act of pulling the trigger, it's which forces are creating an environment that is conducive for such a tragic event to happen. So it doesn't matter if it wasn't a U.S. citizen that pulled the trigger, because it is now known that the CIA put together a lot of resources to make sure that on the political side,

figures close to the US would get into position. And the reality is that they knew and the idea that they were just fighting against communism is also very minimalist because it was more, it was more than that. Already at the time, at the time it wasn't Colton, it wasn't the minerals that we're talking about today, but the country was still full of resources

and at a strategic position in Africa. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting how little Americans seem to care about Congo as a country, as people. It was just irrelevant to them, it seems. I mean, I guess not knowing for sure, even after all these years later, exactly what went on. What does that feel like? It feels terrible, though it was a great relief for us

to be able to bury him two years ago. Because you have to know that in our village in Sanku, the women were still wearing black clothes because they couldn't grieve the hero. So we were able to give them that relief of that burden that they were carrying for so long. But then knowing the exact circumstances is frustrating. And I feel like it is owed to the people of Congo who are in

great suffering. They want to know that the world is respecting their grief and I hope that in the near future we'll continue to know more about these details because they are crucial if we want on this earth to all live together, to understand each other and to forgive. But forgiveness, you know, it has to come with accountability. One part of the story, which is, you know, I think a lot of people will find very difficult, you know, even myself hearing about it, unconnected with the people or the events, is what happened to his body after, well, essentially the Belgians tried to destroy it,

and particularly what happened with your grandfather's gold tooth. That is such a shocking, visceral detail. Is that something you feel able to talk about, what happened there? What is interesting about this tooth is that apparently a Belgian was not satisfied with only the assassination of Patrice Mumba. So when he was killed, they started to be afraid that his body would be found

and that his body would be treated as something holy and that would trigger a more massive movement. So they sent a Belgian officer named Gérard Sout, who is now passed away, and he went in the jungle with his brother, took a couple of bottles of whiskeys, took some locals working for them at the time, went back in the jungle and they dug up the bodies.

It took them two days to cut the bodies and throw them into big jerkin of acid to make sure that the remaining of the national hero would be forgotten by history. But that's the moment ego kicks in because you are sent in the jungle. You want a testimony of that accomplishment that you claim that you have done it for the glory of your country. And we know that he took two teeth

and he took that with him in Belgium four years later. On national television in Belgium, he is talking about his experience in the colony and he take out one of the tooth and he's saying, this is the tooth of Patrice-Emile Mumba. So the police went to the family domicile of Gérard Sout and retrieved the tooth. But for another, I would say two to three years,

we were not able to get a hand on that tooth. And it took my aunt writing to the king and asking formally that this tooth should be considered as a family belonging. She plead her case so that it could come back to the DRC in 2022. And there was a big ceremony when it was returned? Yes.

We toured in the country. We went to his political stronghold. We went to the village where he was born. And we also went to the place he was assassinated because the people there asked us formally. They insisted that they wanted to say sorry about what happened. Obviously, we don't believe that all the people of that region are responsible, but still they felt the responsibility to publicly apologize for what has happened.

And we ended the tour in the capital in Kinshasa, where he is now resting. So Amri, I don't think it's possible to overstate the importance of Lumumba's place in African history as an icon of independence and post-colonial African nationhood. I mean, how do you see his legacy within the DRC and in the wider African context? I think that it is very comforting that people now understand that there is no political independence without an economic independence. People are fighting for that. And when they are fighting for that,

they are usually mentioning Batist Muba because that was one of his fights. Streets are named after him in almost every country in Africa. The kids are being taught about him. So he is very big. There's a lot of misconception about him in our own country. You know, you cannot always be a prophet in your own country, but I don't want to blame the people, the Congolese people, because they were not given a lot of tools to keep his memory vivid. And if I have to be totally honest,

the family also have a responsibility of protecting his memory and making sure that people still know about him. So it comes both ways. I accept that responsibility. I'm not afraid to be held accountable for that. But at the same time, when you're seeing how he trades in other countries, you understand that, okay, he was bigger than Congo. And he will say it himself. I'm African before I'm Congolese.

My dad always made it very clear that we had the responsibility to honor his memory. He always told us that he was a grand figure that was more than us, more than the family. He always told us that he's not only a grandfather. He's the grandfather of all the Congolese. So the responsibility is shared.

That's the value he told to us. Thank you so much, Amri. And it's been lovely talking to you today. That was a pleasant conversation. And it's always good for me to be able to articulate these ideas because that's not my first language, so that helps me. Before we had this chat, I found it hard to imagine what it must be like being related to a huge political leader, such an iconic figure as Patrice Lumumba. But you've definitely given us all a better idea about what that is like.

Thank you so much. It was really interesting talking to Amory today. You might think that he would carry a lot of anger and resentment for what happened. But what really struck me, my big takeaway was how positive he is and how important it is to look to the future and to not dwell on the past. I also found it really interesting that Amory was able to connect with his grandfather through this idea of speaking to him and how important that was,

particularly because the family fled with nothing. They had no possessions, they had no photographs, there was very little to remember Patrice by. And Amory, therefore, was able to think of his grandfather, Patrice, as a person, as a family member, and be able to set aside this idea of him being this great, iconic figure that he has been, in some ways, sort of remoulded as. Thank you for listening, and do join us for our next episode,

hosted by Raza Jafri. Next season, we revisit the file of Eamon Dean, the spy who betrayed bin Laden. And we hear from the former al-Qaeda member himself to understand how he went from teen jihadist to British spy. Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. From Wondery, this is the final episode in our series, The Spy Who Killed a Prime Minister.

This episode of The Spy Who is hosted by me, Charlie Higson. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellow Ant. The producers of this episode are Ashley Clivery and Philippa Gearing. Our senior producer is Rachel Byrne. Our sound designer is Ivor Manley. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frisson's Sync.

Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkin. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our producer for Wondery is Theodora Leloudis and our managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.