The Squeeze - Amy Loughern: The Real Good Nurse

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

In this week’s episode, the Lautners are joined by Amy Loughern as she shares the shocking story of her discovery that her closest friend, Charlie Cullen, was a serial killer. Amy begins by walking us through the history of her friendship with Charlie, then uncovers how she came to the horrifying realization that he was murdering hundreds of his own patients. She recounts working with authorities to bring Charlie to justice, then goes into how her mental health suffered while navigating the grief and betrayal she felt from her best friend. Amy shares how five different hospitals turned a blind eye to Charlie's crimes, exposing the systemic failures that allowed these crimes to occur. She then opens up about her ongoing healing journey, utilizing tools such as energy healing, holistic modalities, quantum jumping, meditation, labyrinths, and hypnosis. Amy offers invaluable advice to new nurses working in the field and discusses the work she’s doing with The MIP (Most Important Patient) Foundation, where they hold conferences and provide tools, resources, and support for healthcare workers!Be sure to follow Amy @amythegoodnurse and check out The MIP (Most Important Patient) Foundation! To email us your questions or share your story, you can reach out to [e-mail]. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode! Plus, follow us on Instagram, @thesqueeze and personally @taylautner and @taylorlautner + on TikTok @thesqueezepodcast To learn more from The Lemons Foundation, follow @lemonsbytay on Instagram and visit lemonsbytay.comProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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The following podcast is a dear media production. The terror of wondering, what if I'm wrong, what if I'm seeing this and it's not real, he said, can I show you something? And so he pushed some evidence across the table to me. It was just the two of us in the room. It was all of 30 seconds before I knew that Charlie had been murdering people. I wanted to believe for so long that he was a mercy killer and he wasn't. He was a cold-blooded killer. When life gives you lemons, what do you do with them? Over here at the squeeze, we talk about it.

I have watched so many of your episodes. And the one thing that I love so much about what the two of you do is that it's so accessible. And I think that's a big mistake that a lot of people, especially like in the spiritual community or even the mental health space, they tend to almost talk over people. Like this is what you're supposed to be doing. This is what's best for you. There's almost a dogmatization to it. And when I see the two of you,

it's like people just sitting, talking about things that it feels more like group therapy. Yeah. Then it does, you know, it is information gathering. but it feels like group therapy. So it's so beautiful. I love what the two of you do.

That's so sweet. I think that's our biggest goal with it is like, we in no way, shape, or form are, you know, mental health experts. Yeah. We're just here to share, you know, our stories and what has helped us because, like, both of us kind of wish we, like, knew a lot of this stuff. Yeah. When we were actually struggling.

And that's like, you know, my biggest thing is I wish I had like, we always say like have your toolbox ready for when something happens, even if you're not struggling right now. You know, what's interesting, though, I'm really glad I didn't have my toolbox. I don't know if we're recording. We are recording, so we can be using this. Yes. So I'm actually glad I didn't have my toolbox when I started on my journey because that journey took me to different levels. It's almost like when you are overwhelmed with too much information, you don't know what's really for you. Yeah. And you kind of have to feel through things.

I am a physics junkie, so quantum physics, Thomas Campbell, has proven through Duke University that we are actually living in this simulation. And so if you think about the world as a video game, this is something that you have created. And within that video. game, you then find little tools or little gifts, and you don't really know how to use them yet. You get like the bring. Yeah. And now you've got this tool, but what are you supposed to do with it? Yeah. And so I think that bringing forward all of that bring. Yeah. Now what? You have to practice. You have to bring it in and see if this is something that really works for you. So when I started on my

mental health journey, I wanted all the answers right away, and I'm glad I didn't get them. I'm glad that every single moment turned into a discovery for me, and it turned into then building on that particular thing. And then when I was ready for the next, ring, it just came to me. Or I ended up with a guru, or I ended up with a specific therapist or a specific modality that then woke up another piece of me. Yeah. That's interesting because, yeah, like when you were like, you know, we wish we would have had our toolbox, you know, when we actually were struggling. It's like, yeah, but then you wouldn't have really struggled. And then you wouldn't have learned, you know, what you did learn about yourself. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So sometimes you got to go through it.

Yes. Yeah. And so I think that's also like with this podcast, that's what you're doing is giving those tools that people can then bring forward, see if that works for them. And if that modality or that particular piece of advice doesn't resonate with them, there's always something more that you're going to be able to offer them that may resonate. So that's beautiful. Wow. Well, that has me very excited to jump into this. Yes. I think we'll take that in segue and welcome to the squeeze. Yes. Thank you so much, Amy, for joining us. We are just so honored to have you with us today because you, and my opinion and Taylor's opinion, and I think the opinion of many others, like, you are a true hero. And I don't think we've really had the honor to speak with someone

that has gone through and done the things that you have done. You've, you know, risked your own future your own life even just to help save so many other innocent lives through a way that very, very, very few people have had to do. Yeah. And before we dive into it, I just wanted to say, we want to be very careful when talking about your story to not talk about it as a film or a storyline because the truth is that it it's your real life. Like you, you actually went through those things. And I can only imagine the effect that going through that still has on you today. So I just want to be sensitive to, you know, when we're talking about your story, it's, we're talking about your life. We're not talking about,

you know, we're not talking about a documentary. We're not talking about, you know, a film. So I just wanted to point that out. Yeah. Thank you. You know, with that in mind, we would kind of love to give our listeners kind of like a little overview and get them up to speed on your story, if that's all right? It's hard to know where to start because my story is so nuanced and the story starts out really with just being a nurse, with being a mom and taking on a job that I thought would give me money to be able to also take care of not only my children, but also. also that I had a serious health condition. And I started working in New Jersey and I started working with this amazing nurse. And that amazing nurse and I became extremely close. He became one of my

best friends. And the very, very long story short, we trauma bonded through everything that we went through as being ICU nurses on the night shift. And we did a lot of codes together, code blues, where you do CPR on people and try to save their lives. And we had an exceptional number of those particular code blues. And he was always my partner. And he was just amazing. He always seemed to know the right medications. Everyone really leaned on him as being one of the best nurses. he was fired. And when he was fired, I was really, really pissed. And not because it was just my friend, but also he had helped me so much through my medical

problems. And also, I had been going through a little bit of depression at that time. And I could talk to him. And he was very self-deprecating. He was very, very, very funny. And he made me laugh. everything that we did, there was always an element of sardonic humor. So I always felt comfortable working with him. And so I also knew that I was going to be alone. Yeah. So after he was fired,

these detectives showed up about two weeks later. And I just couldn't imagine why. The only thing that I could imagine was that maybe someone had been stealing narcotics because, yeah, You don't go from seeing detectives to someone's harming someone. Like, that's too much of a leap. So I knew that they were asking questions about my friend, Charlie. And I just automatically thought this is a witch hunt because I thought it was something to do with narcotics until they talked to me. And when I went into the room to talk to the lead detective, Danny Baldwin, I had to go in with a hospital representative. And that hospital representative had coached me into essentially, if you not feel comfortable talking, don't talk.

It's best to not talk. Yeah. Don't talk. And of course, I'm thinking the hospital is trying to protect me. Right. So I was not the type to really listen to much advice. And so when I went in, the very first thing that I said to the detective is that this is just all bullshit. You're full of shit.

There's nothing. Like Charles Cullen is, he is an excellent nurse. This is bullshit. Wow. And the hospital representative, of course, was like, oh, great, lovely. That's freaking lovely. And she's like, we need to calm down here. But she got called out of the room.

And the lead detective just took a chance. I was the last person that he was talking to out of all of the staff members. And he said, can I show you something? And so he pushed some evidence across the table to me. It was just the two of us in the room. and it was all of 30 seconds before I knew that Charlie had been murdering people and not just one, but you could tell by the way that he was removing medications. It was the PIXIS printout.

And the PIX is a dispensing medication dispensing machine. And it was everything, all of his activity. And it was so evident to me, two things happened. I thought if the hospital actually saw this and they didn't know, that's a problem. Yeah. If they did know, this is all of a sudden going to be my problem because now I know. Yeah. And if they did know and they weren't doing anything about it because there were, there was evident.

that it was from months and months prior. Yeah. And everything just kind of shut down for me. And so, again, long story short, they asked me to help them. I did. I wore a wire. I recorded our conversations, Charlie and I. And eventually we got a confession out of him.

Yeah. It's just, it's just wild. Like, I can't like, I mean, there's multiple things that are, I think, just jaw-dropping about your story from the hospital, which, you know, I would love to dive into a little later, but also just like the fact that you ended up being, like, you not having any form of like detective investigation background, anything like that, that you were, I mean, truly. just like the sole human that was in charge of and responsible for getting a confession out of your friend who you just learned wasn't this person who, you know, you thought he was, who, I mean, he was to you, but, you know, was doing all of these things. How scary was that decision for you to help the detectives in this investigation? Because, I mean, the obvious of like one trying to get, you know, your friend

convicted, but also you knew, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but I would assume that you, you know, you just said you had a hunch that the hospital was, you know, not being the most truthful or forthcoming with information. And, you know, there was a chance that you could lose your job when you really needed it because of your health issues. But how scary was that decision? Or was it scary? I think the word terror comes to mind. It was. It was absolutely terrifying. I do remember I knew in that moment my entire life had changed. There was no, like, there's no way to describe everything that was going through my head,

but it was mostly that I had just lost one of my best friends. And also the terror of wondering, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm seeing this? And it's not. real. And here I am going up against not just the hospital, but a friend who saved my own life. Yeah. And that part of it was really terrifying. And the other part that was terrifying is that I still adored him. I still missed him. And there was a part of me that really thought about, am I doing the right thing? And I know that that seems really hard and I've heard other people who have gone through not something similar, but where they didn't really see something right away. And they just, they can't believe it's true. They have to convince themselves. So I have a lot of

compassion for those people because I did the same thing. I really cared about him. I didn't want to hurt him. And I didn't want to lie to him. Yeah. So yeah, it was, it was pretty terrifying. And I could lose my job. I was literally taking documents out of the hospital because the hospital was shredding evidence. And taking those documents out of the hospital also meant that I was not only putting my job at risk, I was putting my nursing license at risk. and I was at that point where I had been convinced eventually that this was real, this was true, he had actually been murdering people, and that that to me seemed like enough of a risk to take to do anything that I could to make sure that he never hurt anyone again. Yeah. Yeah, that's a very, I can't imagine being in that. predicament. Yeah. I mean, it's such like a good, like, makes you kind of like check your outlook because I feel like you like thinking your friend was one way and actually he was like the other, I feel like is very common or can be common with, you know, people that manipulate people

in whatever it may be. I feel like we see that a lot with, you know, if you were, you know, you offered to like give him a reference. Like, you know, when he was to go to another hospital, Meanwhile, he's actually killing people. And we see that so much in today's day and age and we're so quick to blame the person who is writing the reference when, you know, it's not that their fault, but the friend that they had was just this master manipulator that truly was one way with them.

Yeah. I have a question. After he was convicted, did you have any sort of contact with him or attend any of the hearings or anything along those lines? So I was known as a CI, a confidential informant. And because he confessed to everything and there was the night that he confessed, he actually really believed that he wanted the death penalty. And that was something that he had asked for. And so I thought that it was. over the night that he confessed. I thought this is done. This is over. We won't have to go through a trial. But no one knew my name. No one knew who I was. So I shut everything down. Any newspaper

articles, anything that was being covered through the trial, I didn't want to be a part of it. I didn't want to know. And also I was a CI. People couldn't know who I was. I was in the paperwork as a CI, but I didn't want any part of it. Yeah. And then when I was later on, when I was working with 60 minutes, when we were doing our show for 60 minutes, I did start to go and visit him in prison. And the very first time that I saw him in prison, it was so. emotional and I saw him and it was just like in the movies that you think about that you walk up and there's the glass and there's a telephone that you are picking up but he walked in

with two guards who took the shackles off of him and he was able to then sit by himself and it was just me. There was a row of chairs that other people could have been been sitting in, but he was in solitary. So we had to wait for him to just come out by himself. And the guards stepped back enough and Charlie came up to the glass and I went up to the glass and we put her hands together on the glass and just looked at each other. Like, it's okay. It's okay. And we picked up the phone and of course he made some self-deprecating joke like, you know, I know I've aged, but I'm still hot kind of thing. And he just made this terrible joke. And of course, we did that really awkward laugh. But then I asked him, did I hurt anyone.

Did you do something that somehow made me hurt someone? Right. Not knowingly. Was I ever part of that and didn't know? And I wanted that answer. I wanted the answer to be no. And he knew I wanted that answer to be no. So, of course, he gave me that answer.

But I don't know. I don't know. I just wanted to believe for so long that he was a mercy killer, and he wasn't. He was a cold-blooded killer. And I wanted that to be true, that he was just putting people out of their misery, and I just couldn't get there for the longest time. And then after seeing him in prison, I realized that the person that was in prison, was the murderer

and I believe that the murderer was the real person and I think the friend that I knew never really existed I think that he was always the murderer and he was pretending to be this person that I adored

That's what I was gonna ask you is yeah do you believe that he just had these two totally different sides to him because he as you said, he was such a good, caring friend to you that sacrificed so much for you. So do you think it was, he has just these two different sides? Or, yeah, do you think that first part was BS?

I used to think that it was the opposite. I used to think that who he really was was the beautiful human that I knew. And the first time that I wore a wire when we, were in a restaurant together, there was a moment where I said to him, I know, I know that you have been doing this. I know that this is real. I know that you have been hurting people. And we can go in together. We can go to the police together. I'll stay right with you. We'll do this together. And his face changed to the point where he was just not the same person. It's not in the same way that you see a normal person change moods. It was his eyes changed.

It was almost like the color of his eyes changed. His complexion changed. And it wasn't like he went pale because he was all of a sudden caught. It was this smugness that happened to him. His posture was different. His voice was different. He was not the person that I knew. And I always said that that was the first time I met the murderer.

And then I realized after seeing him in prison that that was always him. That was who he really was. Did you ever fear your own life with him, like when you were doing that? Or were you just still kind of in denial about who your friend was? I think I wanted to be in denial. However, I was having some pretty intense nightmares. And I had this one nightmare that he was sitting in my bedroom and just watching me sleep. And in my dream, I woke up and he said, I've already taken care of your girls.

And now it's you. And I woke up, I went to get my daughters. And from that moment, my daughter slept with me until he was actually in jail. Because there was one thing that we didn't know. We didn't know whether he was murdering people outside of the hospital. And before the book came out that Charles Graber wrote, The Good Nurse, before that book came out, I hadn't realized. that he actually tried to murder someone when he was very young, like around nine years old. So this was a lifetime of being murderous.

Well, this was not, and all of a sudden something happened. It was from his whole life. So we don't know. We don't know if I was in danger, but I believe that I was. Right. That's right. Yeah, towards the end of the day. Doc, they did say that, yeah, he had a history of, you know, like torturing some animals and stuff, right?

Yeah. Was he ever, I don't know if you can answer this or if you know the answer. Was he ever diagnosed with anything? Interestingly, he has refused to talk to anyone in the psychiatric community because he does not want to be allowed. and he does realize that it's interesting for people. He does realize how infamous he is. He does have that understanding. And he wants to be the hero in this story still.

He wants to be the hero. So he doesn't want a diagnosis. I asked him when he was in prison, are you depressed? Are you on any medication? And he said, no, I've really gone back to Christianity. And I meet with a pastor every week. And that was kind of his way to still be the hero.

But people outside of being able to actually talk to him, he's been diagnosed as a psychopath, a sociopath, but no one really knows. We don't know if he has multiple personalities to sociopath. Disorder and no one will ever really know. I don't believe he'll ever talk to anyone to try and get some kind of a diagnosis because he doesn't want to know. He's a hero. Yeah. When was the last time you talked to him?

So it would have been 2013. Okay. Wow. Sorry, my last question. You can ask as many questions as you like. Okay. When that moment, when you're seeing him for the first time on the other side of the glass, does he know that you know? No.

No. So he has no idea that you were wearing the wire and got the confession out of him. So you just, okay, got it. So Steve Croft, who was the 60-minute interviewer, let him know that during. the interview, that the book was coming out, and that I had been the confidential informant. And that was the first time that he knew. And so we haven't spoken since. Okay. But no, he did not know. Okay. And then since he's found that out, you have not spoken to him. And there are, which is really a little bizarre, but there's actually a group of vampire people that follow him and write him letters.

all the time. And so a lot of people were a little nervous about the people who actually worship him, truly worship him for being this serial killer, that there was this concern that he would possibly send them to me. The vampires. We live in an insane world. I'm sorry, I'm smiling, but I was just wild. What are we talking about? What are we talking about? And this is real life. This was my actual life.

Yeah. I just, I'm just this. That's all I'm going to do to you. I don't know how you have done this. It's so, you know, and it's hard for me too because all of these subjects are so dark. Yeah. And I'm actually, even though I'm a pretty serious person, I also really do understand the ludicrous part of this. Like, you start to talk about it and to have that sensitivity that,

But, you know, there's a lot of victims and a lot of victims' families. And it's very strange to not talk about this in a way that is dark and respectful. But there are some things that are pretty silly. Like, come on. Like, let's have those conversations. And it is very hard for me because I think I feel this intense responsibility. of respect for those victims because there are anywhere from 400 to 1,000 victims. And those families are still looking for answers.

Unbelievable. Okay. Well, speaking of silly and just insane things with this, if we could talk a little bit about the hospitals, because I believe you've said, and correct me if I'm wrong, that five hospitals, knew what Charlie was doing and continued to pass him on to another hospital. Is that, is that correct? So for 16 years he was passed on and went to another hospital. We know for certain

that there are five hospitals that knew he was at least dirty. They knew that there was something going on with him, whether they were categorizing that as murder or not, but he was definitely doing something that they knew was not good for the patients. We could say that five of them knew that he was murdering people and sent him on to the next hospital, including my hospital. Right. So they knew, I believe it was eight months, they knew for certain that he was murdering people. And for eight months, they left him on the floor. And that, to me, is the worst part of all of this because you can look at Charles Cullen, you can look at Charlie and say he was so mentally ill. And not that people that have mental illness do these horrible things, but there was

something clearly just not right about him. Yeah. And the people who passed him on to the next hospital, what is up with them? Yeah. Like, what is up with their mental health? And those are the people that really need help. Yeah. Do you think they should be held responsible for, you know, what part they had to do in this?

Well, I can tell you that the risk manager who was the one that was coaching me before I went and to talk to the detectives, she was promoted. So, oh, yeah, she was promoted. She still works for that hospital. Yeah. I think, I mean, obviously every aspect of him is insane. But for, you know, for me and actually being a nurse working at hospital and learning that side of the hospital, I worked on an observation unit and we were like, like if the patient was admitted, like we had 24 hours either admit them or discharge them. And it was like, we're going to get charged by the insurance companies if we don't. And like, I had so many patients that I truthfully, truthfully feel and know that they needed to be admitted. They did not need to go home. And it was just like really, really disappointing to learn that. Like, obviously it's a business and I understand that. And, and I understand that.

But is it how are we supposed to understand that? Let's let's let's let's think about this. These are humans and this is not a business. Yeah. And once we started calling this a business is when we lost the soul of the patients. That's what happened. That when we started to talk about this as for profit. Yeah. these patients no longer had a soul. They were a diagnosis and they were a dollar sign. And they still are. And it's worse now. Yeah. That was something that was so powerful for me in the documentaries. You talked about how, you know, before you decided to help the detectives, you wanted to talk with your daughter about it.

Because, you know, you could lose your job. You could lose all these things that you guys truly needed at that time. And she was like, Mom, when you're talking about, like, if you have a chance to stop someone that is killing people, you need to do that. And here is your, I have chills saying this because it's insane. Your 11-year-old daughter telling you this when the risk manager, who now we just learned has been even promoted after doing this, she was encouraging you not to do that. And hospitals are so quick to say, you know, patient satisfaction, patient safety, patient outcomes. And it's like, but no, if you're going to do that. So that was something just that really stuck out for me. And it's really just,

I feel like my brain like does this. And that was obviously, you know, obviously, you know, being an nurse working through COVID, all of that was hard. But something that I was just like really upset by is, you know, is that part of the hospital. I mean, I guess have you lost your faith in like the health care system through all of this? The easy, quick answer is yes. after everything that happened with Charles Cullen, the biggest thing that came out of it when I look back is the fact that no one asked me if I was okay. No one. No one asked me if everything was going well. And they didn't know that I was a confidential informant, but they knew that Charlie and I were friends. And in the that there was still that weirdness of just not having anyone really want to know if I was okay.

And what I'm seeing right now, because it's easier for people to talk about mental health, a lot of that also, your podcast, brings that as something that is normal to discuss and to say, I'm struggling. Back then, you couldn't say that you were struggling. You just couldn't. And now, especially with these younger nurses, they're not putting up with it. Like, they know this is not okay. We're not going to be doing things the way that they did back in my day, 20, 30 years ago.

And I see a change coming and how. health care right now, not because of the institutions, but because there are some really, really strong millennials and Gen Ziers that are saying, absolutely not. And I just, I'm, I'm so excited to see what they're going to do for health care. I'm so excited about being able to have those big conversations of this isn't right. I don't, I don't care that you've been here, you know, and especially my, I'm not a boomer. I am not a boomer. Can we just, nothing against boomers, but we're going to make this clear. I'm not a boomer. But a lot of nurses my age are very much, like still into that hazing, eating their young and really being in that in that mode.

of, well, I went through it and you're just being a baby. Yeah. And I'm not seeing that at all. What I am seeing is that these nurses, these new nurses, like yourself, are saying, I cannot do this. This is wrong. It's wrong. Yeah.

And there were not enough people back in the Charles Collins days to say, this is wrong. Something's happening. It's wrong. Yeah. I feel so validated hearing you say all of that because that was definitely a big struggle of mine working. So many of like the senior nurses would just make comments about like, you know, I'm the only one that's left of my new grad class or like we'll see who's the strongest nurse, who

stays the longest. And like I remember feeling so much pressure from that and like coming home and telling Taylor that like I was like literally being bullied by these nurses and yeah I think it made me feel like less of a nurse especially when I left I felt really bad about myself and you know like they'll be like oh well real nurses like you're only a real nurse if you like work in the hospital these ladies I'll thank you and it took it took me a long time to like actually process that and be like no I'm actually just like a nurse who went through something really hard and learned how to set a boundary with it and learned what

was good for my mental health and what wasn't good for my mental health. And it's, it's been a process and I still think it is because even now when, you know, people are like, like, oh, are you working? Like, and I'm like, no, I do X, Y, and Z this. Or like, oh. I'm like, that's interesting. Like, there's such like a stigma, I guess. It is not a badge of honor to work in a dysfunctional situation. And I repeat this, it is not a badge of honor. We wore that as a badge of honor. And that was so, so dysfunctional. That was so awful that working 16 hour shifts, working 12 hour shifts, working off the clock, those things were seen as, look at, look at me, look at what I can do. And really these institutions,

institutions believed that that was going to continue. And it's not continuing. Yeah. And it's because of nurses like you that are setting boundaries. And I just, I'm, yeah, I'm just so excited to see what, what these new nurses are going to do. That's cool. So excited. I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. Really encouraging. Moving forward into your, like, healing journey. after just time-wise, after his conviction, how much longer did you continue working in the hospital before you were like, yeah, what did that look like? Well, I had to go back to the hospital I was working at because I needed my health insurance.

Yeah. And also there was a part of me that, like that badge of honor, that I needed to bring. rave through this and push myself through this. And I stayed at that hospital another few years. And that was also, there was a lot of bullying then. People were afraid that I had been working with Charles Cullen. They wanted to distance themselves from me, understandably. But I would walk into the nurse's station and everyone would stop talking. They would give me assignments that that were just abusive assignments. And I would always get the sickest patients, not have a lot of help. And I just braved myself through it. And then I switched jobs. And I got better. I had an experimental

procedure at the Cleveland Clinic. So I was healthier. I could go on to another job. And that job was the job that. I finally left nursing for a while. I had a breaking point. It was my tipping point. There was a patient. I was in a trauma center, and there was a patient that had come in as Wauke-Toki. She was young.

She was in her 30s. Wauke-talkie means they're like alert-oriented. They're like, they're fully like this, sitting talking. Yes. They walked into the ER. Sorry, he has no. Yeah, I was going to pretend. So a walkie tokey.

I was like, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I was like, uh-huh, yeah, a walkie-talkie. I said, oh, and then I was like, oh, wait, Taylor does it. So the walkie-talkie, she comes in. She's just had a virus for a few days. And she very rapidly gets worse in the ER.

And I came in and was getting report on this patient. and I had gotten a report on several of the other patients first, and then this nurse started talking to me about this critical patient. She's in her 30s. She was a walkie-talkie. I sent her husband and her three-year-old daughter home, and essentially we can't get her dialysis. She shut down.

We're going to intubate her. We're going to put her on a breathing machine. And we cannot fly her out. no one will take her, but we don't have dialysis here. Her kidneys had shut down. And she went from that walkie-talkie to being so critically ill that she was dying. And the thought that that was the last patient that this nurse was giving me report on, and she was giving me report that was so dissociative. She was just talking like it was normal. Oh yeah, I sent the husband and the daughter home and, you know, and she's not going to make it. And I just could not, I could not understand what was happening.

Like my brain went into this mode of I finally lost my shit. And there was a trauma area where all the doc sat and I just started saying, I need this right now. I need a line. I need a flight out. I need this. We need help. Why are none of you helping? And I just lost it. And I went in to work with this patient and she was still a little bit awake. We had put her on the breathing machine. And I called her husband and said, you need to come back right away now. Get back to the hospital right now. And he came in. The three-year-old came in and I woke her up out of her sedation and I said, I'm sorry, but you're not going to make it. You have a little bit of time to talk to your husband and say you're goodbyes. You're going to be in pain. I can give you anything to make this a lot easier for you,

but we aren't going to be able to send you to the other hospital. And this is going to have to be your goodbye. I'm going to give you this opportunity. So she said goodbye. I wouldn't let anyone else help me with her because at that point it was obvious this was done. she was done at that point. She was already having dysrhythmia's. She said her goodbyes. I think she lasted maybe another 20 minutes, 25 minutes. Oh, wow. And I gave her her postmortem care and I walked her down to the morgue. I refused to let anyone touch her. And that was it. That was that night I called the supervisor and I I said, I need to leave. I need to leave.

Yeah. And that was it. And then I spent about three months just not talking, not. It was like, how am I supposed to be in this when we are still dealing with the fact that we can be so disassociated from these people that we, I just couldn't understand. I could not, I could not be okay with it anymore. And that was when my healing journey started. That was when I finally said, I need help.

And I didn't know how to do it. So I had to do it on my own. I mean, thank you for sharing that with us. I, one, feel very overwhelmed. I cannot imagine going through that. But also I feel like that, like, as you're just saying that for me, that brought up, like, a lot of memories that I definitely don't think about. And I think that's something that is one of the hardest things for nurses is we're,

it's just like we're so taught to push it down and not even push it down, but to, you know, just kind of dissociate from it. You think, like, you know, this isn't a human. Like, it's just, it's your shift, you're done, your leave. And like you just do it, you do in your 12 hours. And that is, you know, clearly something that I still struggle with. Yeah. And I know that so, so, so, so many nurses struggle with is how, how do I, how do I do that?

Like, it's just, it's, I just, I don't really have, um, do words? I don't have words. It's just, it's just a crazy thought that the things that, the things that, nurses have to go through in the places that, you know, that some can get to, like the nurse that was giving you report, that finding that balance of being able to somewhat

accept what's going on, but also not to let it get to you in a way, or else you're just, you know, you're going to be able to work for six months and then you're going to be, you know, depressed and probably in a psych ward, like if you actually think about it. So it's just so...

I just love that you shared that because it's such a good reminder that I think a lot of nurses need in that need, truly. Yeah. And I think that is really what has happened with COVID is it had gotten so bad that it was that huge turnover of patients so quickly. And I went through that with Charles Cullen, that huge turnover of patients dying. over and over and over again. And we're not soldiers. We're not supposed to be out in the field risking our lives, which is what we were doing during COVID.

We are humans that should feel. We should have the response that I just had. We should be shocked when someone's dying. We should be shocked and feel something. And that that is the norm. That's a normal, healthy response. And to continue to be able to do what we do, we used to push things down.

And what we are realizing is that the pushing down is what is causing the burnout, is what is causing us to not be able to stay in these jobs anymore is what is causing serious mental health issues. We need to learn how to express our emotions, have support within the institutions for us to have debriefings when we lose a patient. And to be also given the opportunity to have a grieving moment. Yeah.

Like we go from patient to patient. So on to the next. On to the next. And that's right. It's like, okay, that happened. We finished that code. You know, we finish the post-mortem care. And then we have to go right on to the next patient. It's not normal. It's not okay anymore. Yeah. It's not okay. And that is the change that I'm seeing right now. That's the change that I'm so proud of. Wow. Yeah. That makes me excited for nurses. I want to dive into your healing journey because, you have done a lot of really cool things during your journey that you've kind of talked to us before that I'm just really excited to learn about. But I do want to know, like, where are you at with it, you know, when we are talking about, you know, a documentary or the movie, like talking about those things.

Does that bring up anything in you at all? Or have you kind of been able to get to a place where you are a couple of? comfortable, like, fully with talking about it. I am so incredibly grateful that it's not easy for me to talk about. I am so incredibly grateful that it still brings tears from my eyes. I'm still so incredibly grateful that I have that feeling of connection to those victims because the second that it isn't bothering me is when I'm not going to talk about it. it because I will not dissociate from this. I will not allow myself to shut that down.

This was a part of my life I should feel shocked about. I should feel real normal emotions. And those normal emotions also do not have to lead to trauma. So I think that that is where I'm at, that I have so many tools to deal with having normal emotions without them going to a state of depression, without them going to a state of mental health crisis. What I realized is that pushing it down was what was causing my depression and my mental health issues. Yeah. So I'm glad that I cry. I'm glad that I can say this really hurts and this is really scary and this is really scary. And this is really sad. And when we were going through the movie and through the documentary, that was, I think everyone was really concerned about treating me with kid gloves. And I was

like, absolutely not. Like, this should be sad. This should be something that I feel. I actually feel it. And so to answer your question, I'm a okay with talking about it. It's not a subject that anybody really wants to talk about, except I don't understand the fascination with serial killers. I guess there is a big fascination with serial killers, but this is not about a serial killer. This is about the victims. Yeah. I mean, I guess prior to this even, because obviously you have to have tools and coping mechanisms, just working as a nurse, period. Were you implementing any of those even prior to the situation? You mean before Charles Cullen? Did I have any tools? Yeah, just like working as a

nurse. Do you meditate? Like, I know there's a few things that we'll talk about, but yeah. So I was a very, very lazy Buddhist. I certainly had studied not modalities, but I had definitely studied some meditation, but it was, you know, I was doing an occasional meditation. I really did not understand how to meditate the way that I do now. Yeah. And I used to think that sitting in meditation really meant sitting, clearing your mind, having those moments of just silence. And so it seemed rigorous and challenging for me.

so I really didn't want to. So really, I had been through therapy. I had a very challenging childhood. At 15, I decided to take my babysitting money and go to the local mental health clinic. And I walked in and I said I need to make an appointment. I don't have a lot of money, but I would like to see a therapist. And so I made an appointment and my therapist charged me $1 a session. Stop.

And yeah. So I knew that I needed help at a very young age. So I did have some tools just from doing that. And I just knew what was happening in my life was not okay. And I didn't see a way out except to do it myself. Yeah. How cool is that? I just, for you at 15 years old to do that, and then for the therapist to clearly be like, you know, just so proud of what you were doing that they were like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to help. She was cool. That's pretty freaking cool. Shout out to Ruth. Ruth. Ruth. Ruth. What a sweet name. We love you, Ruth. Okay, so then how far or...

I guess how long after were you like, was there ever a point where you were like, okay, I actually need to start prioritizing my mental health a little more and do something here? So I definitely had intrusive thoughts after the Charles Cullen whole instance. Those intrusive thoughts, however, were easily pushed aside because I had daughters. and there was absolutely no possible way that I would do anything to myself because I would never do that to them, the love that I had for them, which again, very dysfunctional. I didn't have enough love for myself to not even think about harming myself, but I had enough love for them that I would never do that to them. And after the incident with the mother of the three-year-old, I spent about three months at a friend's cabin in the Adirondacks in upstate New York. And I was just quiet for about three months. And I said, I need to get out of nursing. And I decided, why don't I study something else? So I decided to take a hypnotherapy class. And with that hypnotherapy class, there was also neuroloquist programming that went along with that, but there was Reiki.

And so I learned hypnotherapy and that changed my life. I had gone in there thinking that it was a way for me to get out of nursing, that I could have a different business. And what it did was start me on this healing path. I always say it was my gateway. Yeah. Modality. Wow. Wow.

Wait, that's so cool. Okay, I want to learn more about these, like, things that you have shared with us that I truly don't. What is quantum jumping? What? Bluntly. I don't know what that is. So quantum jumping, if you've ever read anything about quantum physics, so essentially quantum physics tells us that there are multiple realities.

those realities, and again, this has been something that has been proven in quantum physics. Within those realities, we can shift in and out of that because we are creating every moment. And every single time that you were thinking about something, you're creating the next moment. I'm not going to go into real deep, deep explanation. but essentially it is being intentional about creating those moments. And quantum jumping is going back on a timeline. Everyone has a timeline. If you think about something like if let's do this for a moment,

if the both of you would close your eyes for a moment, just close your eyes and take a couple of deep breaths. And I want you to think of something that happened this morning and then think of something that happened last week and then think of something that happened last year. And I want you to now just visualize where that is. That is your past. I want you to point to where your past is. Like in my body. So you can point if it's to your left. to your right? Is it above you? When you imagine that, where do you imagine it coming from? What is up here? Yeah. So, same thing. Close your eyes. And now think of what you have going on for the rest of the day. Think about what you have planned a week from now. Think about what you have planned in a year. And now point to where your future is.

Okay. All right. So open your eyes. So if you think about that, we do have a visual connection with where our past and our future comes from. So essentially, quantum jumping is learning how to manipulate where those things are coming from. So a timeline can be changed into truly going through you where your future is out in front of you and your past is behind you.

And you can also go back in a very, very structured way to something that was traumatic. And once you are able to actually do that with people, and it does take some time to learn how to do that in a way that is respectful of people's traumas, it becomes a jump. Essentially, you jump to a different timeline that perhaps is something that you would rather think of, that you would rather experience. Where did you point? I'm just curious. Here and here. Oh, I did up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that interesting though? Yeah. And then you can also visualize what that timeline looks like. Like for instance, mine looks like little bubbles of little memories that are like almost like a string of pearls.

Yeah. That are attached. Some people think of them as like train tracks. Other people see them as little, do you remember slide projectors? Yeah. The little slides. Yeah. So it's the slide projector and you pull a slide out and then it becomes the memory.

Oh, wow. So all of that is quantum jumping. I love that. I love learning about new modalities like that because there are truly just so many. And it's so cool. how so many, like, different, like, things can help people. Yeah. So that's just, that was a fun question for me to ask.

With all the tools you have and have used, is it possible to choose one that you believe has helped you the most? I would say probably doing timeline therapy, very similar to what we did. I was regressed on a timeline. and that timeline brought me back to my trauma that was causing my anxiety and where it started. And that to me has been also the most important thing that I have done with my own clients and my own loved ones is to be able to go back to those moments and switch it up a little bit and have more control over what that's situation. situation was. Yeah. So I would say that, but meditation.

Yeah. Meditation, for me, I meditate every single day and I could drop in in this moment and start to meditate. And the other thing is that I have learned ways to help other people meditate so that it isn't as, to me, it was almost stressful to meditate. Yeah. Because I couldn't slow down my mind. And that I had that idea that that's what it was.

So meditation really is my daily practice. Yeah. I know. I mean, if you, I don't think either of us have really done too much meditation. Yeah. I feel like when I feel like I have a lot going on, I try to do it a little more. Or even just, I think mine would, I guess it would maybe be similar, but affirmations for me are like. a big or a big thing, especially when I am feeling anxious or panicky.

But is there, we don't need to dive into this if it's a long answer and you don't want to. But how, because I think Taylor is asking too, is like how, how do you simplify it, like as you're saying it? Where do you even start? Yeah. Like, I feel like I hear meditation. It's like, oh, I need to go, like, sit, like cross-legged and like close my eyes for 30 minutes and like do something like that. but it is so much more, but also less in a way than that. So there's a very simple thing that you can do.

We can actually do it right now. It's pretty quick, too. So if you want to put your feet down in the ground, both of you. Excuse me, Lily, Lily. Right under Lily. Harley got to do it too. And so you can close your eyes. if that feels good for you.

And we're just going to take three big deep breaths, which is always kind of the beginning. And when you take those breaths, don't take them in your shoulders. Take them in your belly. Take those breaths deep in your belly and drop your shoulders. Good.

And then with that third breath, I want you to start noticing your, thoughts. Notice that your thoughts have a title. You could be deciding. You could be planning. You could be remembering. And I want you to just imagine and watch for just 30 seconds. I want you to watch those thoughts come in and give them a title. Each of them has a theme. And also watch where they're coming from. Are they coming from the left side? Are they coming from the right side? Are they coming in from the top of your head? Are they coming in from your belly? And when you notice that, then you can just open your eyes. This sounds, your voice sounds so nice. And they said,

Oh my gosh. I feel like I'm just going to replay this episode. Clearly worked on her. Oh, wow. So did you notice that there were themes that were coming in? Did you notice that once you start theming your thoughts, they also start to slow down. Yeah. Because you're anticipating the thought. Yeah.

And the direction thing is something I've never. thought of. Like when you're like, where are they coming from? For some reason, I was like, oh, they're coming from right here. I was like, how, where? Like, I've never, never thought about it. Where were yours coming from? Left to right. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? So you watch your thoughts. You receive your thoughts. Your sounds better. I think that it's just really, when you're really intentional about noticing your thoughts, I can do that while I'm driving. And I found that when I was driving to work, that would be the worst time. Your mind is just going a mile a minute. You're thinking of every reason why you don't want to be there. Why didn't I call out sick? Yeah. I really don't want to do this. And so you slow your thoughts down by theming your thoughts, naming your thoughts, detailing your thoughts, and then watching your thoughts. And then watching your thoughts. You're watching them come in and as they're slowing down, then you can really slow down your mind.

Because it's so interesting that once you actually start naming them, then you're like, okay, I am still planning. Why am I planning? Why am I remembering? And it just gives you something to do other than just being a victim. to your thoughts. Yeah. Because a lot of our thoughts are bullies. They're just bullies.

Right, for sure. And they are all coming from ego. The other thing that you notice with meditation is once you notice a feeling in your body, if there is something that is making you anxious, there's usually a feeling where it hits you in your body. mind depending on what it is. If it's money, it always hits me right at my solar plexus. If it's work, it tends to hit me in my fifth chakra, which is right here in my throat. And my throat will clamp down. And once you really start understanding that that is your moment

to notice your thoughts, that starts to calm down for you as well. Because each, one of those anxious feelings starts with a thought. Every single one of them. And then you realize I was just thinking this particular thing. Yeah. And then you ask yourself, is that true? Yeah. Is that true? Is it true? Usually it's not. Usually it's just your ego being a bully. Yeah. Wow. It's a great practice. Yeah. It makes it sound. like so simple too like when you break it down. I love that thoughts or bullies. And you, you being a dancer that that is really about breaking it down. You break it down into steps. Yeah. And this is just practice. And once you start practicing those things and once you really

start noticing those things, then you can do that for five minutes a day. Then you start to want to do it for 10 minutes a day because everything slows down. Yeah. And where that silence is where they say, and most people say that, you know, meditation is really clearing your mind. When it really is that when you start to notice your thoughts and you see them coming in, there's a pause in between those thoughts. It's that pause that you work for.

It's that pause that you start to notice. And once that pause comes in and you're slowing everything down, you're not stopping your thoughts. You're just literally becoming the witness of your thoughts. That is your meditation. Becoming the witness. Wow. You have some good things. Speaking of good things you have going on.

I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing with Most Important Patient because I think it is so needed. But can you share a little bit with our lemon drops about what that is? So most important patient came about when I was doing a keynote speech in Australia last year. Okay. And I did my keynote and then I knew that they were doing an exercise. I think the next day that I was very interested in. And it was like a closing ceremony. And during that closing ceremony,

we did this really, really cool exercise that we were sitting in a circle, closed our eyes, and then people were coming around and whispering beautiful things about you in your ear. And it was so, it just was so emotional for me to hear things about myself and realizing that I don't really have that. Like it's, yes, people say things like, oh, you know, you did these particular things. That was really cool.

But noticing something about a person intimately and realizing that I don't take those things in and really bringing those things in for that moment. It was very emotional. And I said, no one ever did this for us when we're nurses. No one would ever think about just sitting you down and saying, these are the most beautiful things that I've noticed about you today. And these are the things that I know that this is why you're a good nurse. This is just beautiful.

And I said, these retreats, which the keynote that I was giving was at this retreat, this week-long retreat, I realized that I wanted to do this for nurses, for health care workers. So we have been working diligently putting together this wonderful conference that will bring forward not just the modalities that helped me, meditation, yoga, and also Reiki, but other things that are non-traditional, reconnective healing, Kashuk record readings, Oracle card readings, breathwork,

things that can help you on your healing journey, and then also bringing in other professionals like debriefing specialists, like actual therapists, so that when these things might come up during the non-traditional moments so that there will be people to support you. Yeah. And workshops on how to decrease stress, workshops on how your mental health is also associated with your financial health.

So many different workshops that we would be doing and having keynote speakers that are dedicated to the mental health of health care workers. Wow. So it's a big undertaking, and yet I'm so proud of this because it's just so needed. Yeah. And so we're hoping that the healthcare workers will want to do something like this because I think a lot of times when we go on retreats or if we go and go to conferences, it's very much about how do I become a more productive worker. and what skills can I get to become a better nurse where this is really about how to really ignite

and wake up your healing journey because that not only will it make us better health care workers, it will help us in every area of our lives. And we're not trying to make people more resilient. It's really about going to that place of your emotions are okay. your emotions that you should be feeling those emotions. And now how do we do that? Yeah.

Wow. I feel like now seeing or like, you know, seeing the schedule and everything and now finally getting to like sit down and talk with you. I like understand fully, you know, what you have planned out and why you have everything that you have planned out at this conference. And I think it's so, it's so beautiful. Are tickets on sale? Can people?

So, yes. People can register. there's early bird on their most important patient.com. And we're really, really hoping that people will see how much this is needed. I think that I think everyone can agree that this is needed is just a matter of do people really want to go and be able to have this healing journey for themselves. And yeah, I'm hoping that we can. help a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you guys are going to because you can tell

that your intention behind it is so pure and, you know, you genuinely are wanting to give back to your community and to just, you know, provide a safe space for nurses to feel, which is so important. Is the schedule out? Am I allowed to? You certainly can. I'll be there. I was like, I should have asked you before. I realized I should have asked you before we started filming. So if you want to come hang with these two ladies, get your tickets. Yeah, baby. Woo!

Yes. I am just like so excited and honored and that, you know, you would even just want me there. And this is something that I'm so passionate about, obviously the mental health aspect of it. But to be involved with something that, you know, is for nurses and for healthcare work. workers, that's something that is just so strong on my heart. And I'm just, I'm so honored that I get to be a part of it. We wouldn't want to do it without you. Oh, that's so sweet. We'll leave, we'll leave a link. You guys have to come hang out with us and we'll do some fun healing. Yes, we will. Yes, we will. Two questions before, before we end. I want to know if there is,

what has been the biggest reward for you being a nurse? The biggest reward for me. The biggest reward for me, is seeing people's journey and we only get a snapshot of their journey and then we kind of make a story of who these people are and being honored that people are are in their most vulnerable position and that I've been able to be a witness to that and not just be a witness, but have an opportunity to make a difference. In that moment, you have a snapshot. You have a moment. And I was given opportunity after opportunity to make a difference. And how many people really get that?

Yeah. How many people are really given the gift of, opportunities to make a difference in people's lives. So I think that is, that's what I'm most grateful for. My last question is a word of advice for nurses that feel stuck, that feel like they're trapped in the cycle, that feel like they know they may not be in the safest environments, but they don't really know what to do. The most important thing to do is look at yourself first and not thinking about how you're

going to change your career, how you're going to change the health of your floor or whatever, whatever situation you're in. Look at yourself and say, how can I help myself on this healing journey? things will start to fall into place from there. But it always starts with us first. Yeah. And getting our own mental health in order. And even though that may seem like such a tall order,

the best place to start is looking at things that might help you. And it may be Reiki. It may be acupuncture. It may be something that is not just talk therapy. Yeah. It may be something that will, awaken you. It might be a tarot card reader that you go and see, but it could definitely then inspire you or at least give you more mental clarity on what your next steps are.

I love that. That's beautiful. Okay. This is one of my favorite episodes that we've done. I know. I just, it's, you are just, as a human, you are just truly so. amazing and I'm not just saying that. Like the things that you have been through and how you've just turned that into helping others is just, I have no words. And I'm honored to know you and, you know, get to be a part of, you know, your journey and helping people as well. And I'm, yeah, I don't, I don't have words.

I'm excited to watch this back. Thank you, Tay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for sharing, you know, your journey and being so vulnerable and also sharing just an insane amount of wisdom. I learned so much and just really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Both of you. Thank you for all you do.