The Squeeze - Dr. Rosmarin: Navigating Anxiety and the Holidays

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

This week the Lautners engage in an insightful conversation with Dr. David Rosmarin, a clinical psychologist, scientist, educator, and author. Together, they discuss the distinction between stress and anxiety and the societal tendency to over medicate those with an anxiety diagnosis. Dr. Rosmarin presents a refreshing perspective, emphasizing that anxiety isn't inherently negative and can be leveraged positively. He shares his approaches to navigating anxiety, and together they discuss how anxiety can enhance relationships and contribute to self-awareness, resilience, and spirituality. They also discuss his advice on setting boundaries with family during the holiday season, and supporting loved ones during difficult times. This episode offers tools for personal growth and supporting loved ones when it comes to navigating anxiety, especially as we enter the holiday season.   Be sure to follow @dhrosmarin, visit his website dhrosmarin.com and check out his book Thriving with Anxiety.  Thanks to our awesome sponsor for supporting this episode:  Factor— Head to factormeals.com/thesqueeze50 and use code thesqueeze50 to get 50% off  To email us your questions or share your story, you can reach out to [e-mail]. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode! Plus, follow us on Instagram, @thesqueeze and personally @taylautner and @taylorlautner + on TikTok @thesqueezepodcast  To learn more from The Lemons Foundation, follow @lemonsbytay on Instagram and visit lemonsbytay.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Auto-hue with Sunny Cars feels as if the children not be made. Kiselstramble, Zandvo. Actis forqueer, verdwine, vacancy can chaotic

be chaotic. But who'sorgloos an auto-hurt says, Uno-dos no stress. No-everhue. Nocted cost. Always full-ledged.

So, auto-hue, without your re-sadviseur or sunnycars. If you're doing something that you really want to do, you're going to feel anxious.

It's going to be. be tough. You're going to be budding up against barriers and overcoming them and moving forward. And all of that tension means we have to accept it and realize that anxiety is a part of it and then moving over it or what I call transcending anxiety. When we respond in a healthy way, we can actually turn anxiety into, I would even say, a blessing and an opportunity to thrive in our lives. And that's really the core of my approach. When life gives you lemons, what do you do with them? Over here at the squeeze, we talk about it.

Hello, hello, hello, and happy Wednesday. Welcome to the Squeeze. That scared me. You have two tailors and a Remy who is fast asleep on the chair next to us. Yeah. Lily is also in a bedroom by herself. Fast asleep. Fast asleep.

It's just a quiet little Wednesday here. A quiet little Wednesday in a lot in their home. But to our dogs. It is. Yeah. To our dogs. Should we start with a citrus got reel? Let's kick this off with a little citrus got reel because they are sitting right in front of me.

And I really want to see what's inside of there. Let's do it. Okay. Can I get a drum roll, please? What was the last TV show you binge watched? Easy, peasy, lemon, squeezy. That would be Squid Games, the challenge. Oh, and bad surgeon.

Yes. Which one? I guess technically. No, no. Well, technically we watched the finale of Squid Games, the challenge, most recently. Technically, the last thing we watched was Paradise. That would be Bachelor and Paradise for those of you wondering, yes, we watch horrible television. Hey, that is... A.k.a. great television.

That is great. Oh, we don't miss a season. Yeah. Especially Paradise. Paradise is my... Yeah, that's definitely your favor. It's my favorite. But Vacta Squid Games, the challenge. If you haven't watched this show, oh my gosh. You need to get on it asap.

Well, now I feel like we have to watch the actual show. I know. We didn't watch the like real descriptive series. Yeah, we did it backwards. Technically, I did watch five episodes. This is what I say when people ask me. I've watched five episodes, but it was a man that was watching it on his laptop on a plane. Two rows in front of me with subtitles.

You're one of those. So I didn't hear it. But I watched it. But it's a little rough. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. So I like this one. I like this one.

Anyways, go watch this show. It is so good. I watched eight episodes in one day, I think. Yeah, you really went for it. I was hooked. I think I joined in on like four or something. You did. You got in at like three or four.

Yeah. I think what's like really cool, but I mean, the whole concept's insane and the set design and the production and everything is so good. But I think what's really cool about it is unlike other reality shows, the producers don't have much say into like who goes home because it's all like off of these like random chance challenges. Yeah. So it's really there's no like producer like planting someone and keeping them until the end. It's really just like up in the air, which kind of makes it more fun. Yeah. You just never know what's going to happen. Yeah. And if you don't know what it's about at all,

the quick version is they take 456 people, strangers from all over the world, put them together in the Squid Games Challenge. They live together for like, I don't know how long they filmed it for, probably just like a week, week and a half. And the prize fund is $4.56 million. So whoever wins, only one person wins, walks away with $4.56 million. And they have different, you know, tests that are both, you know, both physical, brain. Honestly, there's not much physical. It's a very strategic game. Yeah.

And it does not disappoint. Yeah. Anyways, that was a long answer to a citrus. I'm going to put that one back in there because I like that question. That amount of money is crazy. When he told me that I was like, wait, what? Yeah. We have an exciting episode today.

As Remney changes her couches. She's just going to go back and forth the whole time. We do have a very exciting episode, and I feel like this episode is long overdue, but it also is perfect timing. Yes. Because holiday season is upon us. It is upon us. And for most, it can be a fun time, but also a stressful kind of anxiety-driven time with family dynamics and boundaries and grief and just a lot of stuff. Yeah.

holidays are nice but can also be tough, understandably. So, yeah, we have Dr. Ross Marin on today, and he specializes in anxiety and stress, which we found out are two separate things, which is really cool. But it just kind of like talks about ways to overcome your anxiety, like tools to help thrive with it because he does believe that, you know, obviously a lot of anxiety know, but some anxiety and stress, like, can be a good thing. It can help, you know, drive us more, which is such a fun fact. But we had fun. I feel like we like sidebarred a lot with him, just about us. Even, even when we hung up and got off the phone with him, we continued talking to

him for like 20 more minutes because he's so much fun. Yeah. After we wrap the episode, we just stayed on. And we also talked about so much more that you will be seeing him again. Yeah. You will very much be seeing him again because we thought of a lot of fun episodes to do. But we are just so excited to share the episode with you guys and hope you can take away something from it to make these next couple weeks a little bit easier for you. Yeah. We'll see on the other side. Dr. Ross Buren, thank you so much for being here with us today on The Squeeze.

We are honored to have you. Thanks for having me. It's my honor to be here. Of course. We're super excited. to dive in to all of this. Yes. I mean, we talked about like anxiety and stress a lot on the show. But I feel like now it's such an important time because of holiday season.

And I feel like that is when a lot of stuff definitely gets a little heightened. So we'll be sure to. It's definitely the most common topic that when we have guests on talking about their life. Yeah. Anxiety and stress and just like dealing with that on a daily basis. I feel like that's the only one who has anxiety and stuff. Exactly. That's our whole point of this podcast is so everyone realizes that you are not alone.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. But I feel like a great place to start in something that you kind of differentiate between, which is cool. We love breaking things down. I obviously love the science behind stuff because I'm a nurse and Taylor just to understand the science. I love Laman's terms. He loves Laman's terms.

So we're a good mix of things. them both. But I think a great place to start is just kind of like what the difference is between stress and anxiety. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about stress. Okay, so you have a background in nursing. So you know stress better than I ever well. And that's when you have too many things to do and not enough time, not enough money, not enough resources. In other words, it's an imbalance between the demands on your life and the resources that you have. And certain fields, nursing definitely included, but other ones as well, you're perpetually in a state of having too much to do and just not enough capacity to be able to manage that. A little stress is fine, but when it's chronic,

it can be a real problem and needs to be adjusted. That's time to recalibrate and rebalance and to move things forward. That makes sense. So in order to know anxiety, you know know fear. So fear is a healthy response. It's a positive thing that keeps you safe. if there's a threat. That's your fight or flight system. It's also known as the fight, flight, or freeze system. And if there's some sort of a threat, you know, an attacker or you're driving on the highway and somebody does something dangerous or, you know, these kinds of situations, in a nanosecond,

you get a shot of adrenaline into your bloodstream and your pupils open up more in order to increase your field of vision, your heart starts to pump. Your breathing starts to increase, your muscles tense up, all in order to help you to avoid the threat or in order to fight it or freeze so that way it'll protect you. It's a very healthy, positive, neurologically strong sign of strength when people are having fear. Anxiety is the exact same as fear, but there's one difference. Either of you know. Fear is like, I don't know, I was going to say, an actual threat, but fear some anxiety maybe is like made up. That's it.

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Ding, ding, ding goes to Tay. I'll give the shocker. So anxiety is when the threat is not real. So it's a false alarm. It's a trigger of your adrenal glands when you didn't need to have them triggered. Nothing more, nothing less. And it happens to everyone.

We have false alarms all the time. It's just your neural system firing up in case you did need it one day. Now, granted, some people have too much anxiety, so to speak, and it's always going. But it's really not a sign of anything catastrophically wrong. I've never had a single patient die from anxiety, and this is why it's actually not an unhealthy process for people to go through it. So something, as you guys know, that has been a huge part of my mental health journey,

Taylor's mental health journey journeys as individuals, and as a couple has been therapy. Amen. And that is why I am so excited to share our next sponsor, with you guys, which is cerebral. Cerebral is here to help you achieve your mental wellness goals with professional therapy and medication management support 100% online. You'll experience the all-new cerebral way, an innovative approach to mental wellness designed around you. You'll get a personalized treatment plan from a therapist, prescriber, or both in a safe and judgment-free space.

I love that cerebral is 100% online because that means you have no excuse. You have to go, like, There's no, oh, I don't have time to go drive. It's too long of a drive. No, you can do it on your lunch break. You can do it before work, after work. And it's honestly just, it's convenient. Yeah. It's convenient and they have great therapists.

Yeah. And it'll just keep you accountable too. So we highly, highly encourage that you guys check out cerebral because therapy is just done wonders for us. And we know it'll do this. same for you. To get started on your path towards better mental health, Cerebral is giving our listeners 15% off their first month of online therapy, medication, or both. Get started at Cerebral.com slash podcasts and use code the squeeze to make 2024 your best year yet.

That's C-E-R-E-B-R-A-L.com slash podcast and use code the squeeze. Offer is only valid on monthly plans, other exclusions. may apply, see site for details, get going on that therapy. If you can just say, you know, fear is real, anxiety is not, or not, I mean, like, if you have social anxiety, does that not mean that it's like a real fear? Okay, great question. So firstly, we talk about dying from embarrassment, but I've never seen that actually happen. Right. And yes, it is a, there's a fear component to it, but the actual threat, I mean, listen, like I'm speaking to somebody who's been in movies. So for you, like,

public image, there might be some real consequences to, you know, certain social situations. And I get that. For most people, probably not. Usually what people think about us, firstly, they think about us a lot less than we believe that they do. Right. In general. Like, they don't really care. People are thinking about themselves, personally. Secondly, even if they think something negative, like, okay, what are the real consequences? So usually that piece is in the realm of anxiety, but it does feel real. And in certain fields,

there could be aspects of fear potentially. Okay. Interesting. But it doesn't matter. I mean, so let's say it's a false alarm. Okay, so that's still a normal aspect.

I mean, sometimes your fire alarm goes off in your house. So what does that mean? We often judge ourselves and say, like, if it's anxiety, it's bad, if it's fear, it's good. I don't believe, I don't buy that at all. I don't think anxiety is a bad thing in any way.

People have it. It's normal. I mean, if you do deal with anxiety, which I think a lot of us can relate to, you talk about the approaches to dealing with anxiety and how there's usually two predominant approaches, which is either trying to cure it or just resigning to the idea that you're going to live with, you know, struggling with your anxiety and fear for the rest of your life.

But you present a new third option. Can you let our listeners hear this new third option on how we can deal with this other than trying to cure it every day or just giving in and dealing with it for the rest of your life? Yeah, absolutely. I've been waiting for this moment. It's kind of like if you have, if you've got lemons, squeeze them and make some lemonade.

And it really is like that with anxiety. All of us have lemons. You're going to feel anxious. Your alarms are going to go off, especially in this current day. It's the way it is for a variety of reasons. And I'm happy to get into why that is. But the question is when we feel anxious,

and this gets into the other guy today, what you were saying before, how you respond when you feel anxious. That's really what counts. That's really what matters. When we respond in a healthy way, we can actually turn anxiety into, I would even say, a blessing and an opportunity to thrive in our lives. And that's really the core of my approach. Yeah, yeah.

Can you give an example of taking, you know, being, you know, feeling incredibly anxious about something, but how do you react to the correct way to turn that into a blessing or into a positive thing? I can give you 100 examples. You probably don't need that many. I'll give you a couple. I'll give you a couple. You know, people who feel anxious, they often are much more in tune with the emotions of others. They're better able to empathize.

They're better able to relate to people at a real emotional level to actually understand what's going on for them, to go there to risk talking about how they feel. I mean, look at this podcast. You have, you know, tens of thousands of listeners, and where did it come from? It came from one or two people's experience of dealing with anxiety and then putting themselves out there. It's a whole community and a whole network of empathy and of people connecting in ways that they didn't previously do.

I mean, it's an amazing thing. And you're seeing this all over social media where people who speak about their fears or their anxieties, it resonates. It just hits a chord because we're so lonely today. And like, this is really the real conversations that people need to actually connect. That's a big thing for us is connecting with people. And like one, that's always been so important. But I think we learned how truly important that is since COVID because a lot of us like lost that human and human connection. And that is something that we're really big on like bringing back.

And something that's important to us. And I think has definitely like helped a lot of people too is just talking about it and making it normal and how. having that connection of, oh, you know, like this person has this too. Like, oh, that makes me feel a little bit better. We have more people dealing with anxiety on a daily basis than it feels like ever before. Oh, yeah. Are there any like to say about this? Okay.

There are a ton of reasons. Firstly, we are having higher levels of anxiety. And it's not just people reporting it. It's real. And the reason we know there are more people on disability today who cannot work because of their anxiety. There are more people who are hurting themselves today, harming themselves. The suicide rate is through the roof.

I mean, we're talking objective behavioral indicators that something is off. Yes. To me, what boils down to the anxiety epidemic is one very simple thing. We have a culture that expects us to feel good all the time. and that cultural expectation is so dysfunctional. It's just not true. There aren't human beings who have zero anxiety for their whole lives, everybody today, even though we have lots of, you know, by and large, lots of resources, you know, in addition

in economics, but also technological resources, healthcare, and, you know, notwithstanding important disparities that do exist, that, of course, that's definitely a major factor. But, you know, notwithstanding that, people today expect that things are going to go their way and that their emotions are going to be even killed all the time. We have spread that message that you're supposed to feel good. You're supposed to feel happy 100% of every day. And it's just a myth. It's a, and the more we pursue that myth, the harder it is because the minute we feel anxious, now I'm a failure. I'm preparing myself to this completely unresbyistic expectation.

Right. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's cold. setting that expectation. So then you feel like you never can hit it because you feel like you're always doing something wrong or not living up to it. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.

That's so true. I was going to ask this later, but I'm going to ask it down. You talk about how society is like currently over medicalizing anxiety. Oh, yeah. How so? What do you, what would you like recommend that doctors maybe like do differently? Yeah, it's a really, really huge challenge today. If people go to a PCP these days and they complain about any level of anxiety in the last two weeks,

immediately it flags them for a potential diagnosis and potential medical, pharmacological, like a prescription of medication treatment for that anxiety. On the one hand, there's some progress there because we have doctors who are recognizing that people struggle with mental health concerns, and I get that. But let me ask you. of all the people who you have seen and met this week, this month, the last year, how many of them can truly say in the last two weeks that they have had no anxiety and no worry at all?

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. I wouldn't think that one. Not too many. So what we're doing is we've set the bar way too high or too low, depending on how you see it. You know, our definition of a medicalized anxiety is way too low. We're being too inclusive. And I do think there are some cutoffs, but any anxiety at all in the last two weeks, any worry at all, significant worry in the last two weeks, no, that is not a realistic human achievement, so to speak, mental health goal even.

And when we set it that low, then we end up saying, oh, something's really wrong here when in fact it's called normal, which is a problem. Yeah. What are people being prescribed? Like, what are they given? Well, what do you do for that? Yeah. Yeah. The most common is going to be something called a benzodiazepine.

Benzodiazepines is a class of drugs. The most common of those is called Xanax. I'm sure you've heard of Xanax. Of course. Yeah. Xanax, colonnipine, Valium, Ativan. These are the familiar faces of pharmacology. And they are fast acting, so they act right away.

And then they get in and out of the bloodstream within either six hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, depending on which one people take. And one of the disadvantages is that people never learn that like, oh, a little bit of anxiety, it's uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong. It's not fun. But you can actually tolerate it and it can make people stronger and more resilient if we allow ourselves to experience that discomfort.

Obviously, at certain points of like my career, I've just playing experience, some high levels of anxiety and stress that have made me, you know, we've like, we've, like, talked about going down the medication route, but I'm like, I don't even like taking Advil. So I'm like, I'm just like, I have this irrational fear. I'm going to have an allergic reaction to like a medication and die. So I don't like taking anything even though I've taken. It sounds like a bit of anxiety, actually. Yeah, I think maybe that just comes from nursing out. You're not afraid that you're going to get hooked on it. You're afraid that you're going to have an allergic reaction? Yep. What? I wouldn't even take. We were, we were just at Disneyland and I wouldn't

take like the non-drowsy dromene because I had never taken it before and I was scared I was gonna like have an reaction to it and that's the only reason I didn't take it. I also want to make something clear like I'm not against people taking pharmacology or taking medications in order to deal with psychiatric conditions but if the goal of those medications is to get rid of your anxiety completely you are heading in the wrong direction if your goal is to get it into a manageable level where you have to tolerate some of it and then tolerating more of it over time, that I can deal with. And more than half of my patients are on medications in order to do that. But we have set this expectation and this, you know, we try to use medications in order to

control our mood states and get them down to a place where we are always having equanimity, soulless, happiness. And it is making our society crazy. It's making things so much harder because the expectation is an unrealistic one. And that's the main point. that I wanted to sort of say before. The point I was trying to make before we got off topic is, like, because I'm afraid to do that, I've had to try out other ways to handle my anxiety and learn how to, you know, take certain steps and able to, like, handle it. And obviously it's gotten to a point where I haven't, like, had to do that.

And I've learned some tools that I think would be important. which I think we're going to dive into next about your nine tools. But I think it's taught me to learn. It has taken me time. But I was actually, I was having an anxiety attack in the car all the way to Disneyland. And I knew I was in the whole time. I'm like, this is going to pass. Like, I know.

I don't even really know why I'm anxious, but I know this is going to pass because I've had a lot of anxiety attacks over the past few years. And I've learned, you know, certain tools to help me get over it. And I think what you're saying is so true is we all are going to deal with anxiety. and that's, you know, that is a normal thing. And I think me having, like, I've kind of learned those tools that have helped me and I'm able to conquer it in a way.

That definitely still happens. But I've learned how to, like, handle it and approach it. Yeah. But I love what you said before about sort of just knowing you're having anxiety attack, not judging yourself, letting it happen and being like, okay, it's going to be over soon. It's not a pleasant ride to Disney, to Disney, but. Yeah. Okay, it'll be over soon.

Did it ruin the rest of your day? Can I ask? No, I was over in like, maybe like 45 minutes in the car. Yeah, no, she is good at that. I will definitely give that to her. Like the whole ride, she was like silent. She, before we got in the car, she was like, I'm starving. I need breakfast.

We stopped at a place and got food before we started our drive. The second we started our actual drive, she's like, I'm nauseous. I'm not hungry at all. Like, she wouldn't talk. I'm like, are you excited? it for the day. She's like, hmm. And I'm like, what's wrong? And this is, this is always my thing because I, I can't, like, I do struggle with anxiety, but I don't think to the degree that Tay, you know, deals with it sometimes. And my thing is always, well, what's wrong? And she never can, like,

you know, answers to that question. She's like, I don't know, you know, I'm, I feel an anxiety attack coming and it's going to it's going to pass um you know i just need some time and i'm like okay but like what are you worried about and i'm always like wanting to like solve the problem yeah and um i think i probably shouldn't be doing that no i mean it's good that you ask this is something no it's good it's good that you asked but but yeah so i don't think i'm able to sometimes i come out of nowhere. Sometimes I have maybe a reason. Sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe it's my, I have like severe gut issues. I'm like, oh, maybe it's my IBS that's causing the anxiety or maybe it's, you know, I don't know. But yeah, I was actually having an anxiety attack in the car.

Let me ask, when you get panicky, what do you need? What do you actually need from your partner? I think just knowing that he's there, which he was just like there and was like, he asked me, I think it's been cool, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, is like when, during COVID when I started working and as a COVID nurse and, you know, I was dealing with mental health stuff for the first time, like to a severe degree, Taylor at first was like, well, what's wrong? And was thinking that, you know, it was him doing something or something that he could fix. And we both had to learn that, you know, it's not something that Taylor could fix. It just needs to support me through it.

And that, you know, he has learned that and does a very. good job and I think for me just knowing that he's there and making him like aware. I mean, he knows without me having to say. If I'm like sitting there, I freaking crank the AC all the way down. I'm like sweating. I'm silent. I'm not eating food. Like he knows. He knows that something's wrong. So I think like the check in for me and then just knowing that he's like there, even though he's not really like speaking to me or he'll be like, oh, look, look at the mall or look at that animal driving by or something. Just knowing that he's there. Definitely.

It sounds to me like a presence and not having it being solved or resolved is actually like at the core of what you're looking for, which is exactly what people with anxiety say all the time. And that's what can create greater closeness and emotional intimacy and connection between couples when one person has anxiety. And I have seen this. Yeah. Yeah.

Ten dozens of times in practice where often there are gender differences here. where the guy's like, let's try to solve this and, you know, she's the anxious one, it can, you know, that can definitely create some complexity there. And then eventually, though, it hopefully gets articulated that like, hey, all I need is for you to hold my hand. And it will pass, whether it's in 10 minutes or 20 minutes or 40 minutes or whatever. Just to be here with me while I'm feeling anxious, there's a greater emotional connection that can be fostered when somebody's simply present with you in an emotionally charged situation.

It actually is right now, I know like the tendency is like, I want to fix this and I want to stop feeling anxious, but actually the more you connect with someone while you're feeling revved up, the more close you will feel with them once things naturally settle down. Try it next time.

Yeah. No doubt. Yeah. That's a complete time. That's great advice. And yeah, that's definitely something we've learned. I've gotten a lot better at it.

gotten a lot better at it for sure. It does take practice. It definitely does. Yeah, for sure. I mean, definitely takes practice and also I think as the, as the, I mean, I guess both spouses, someone who's in my position, you know, not feeling guilty for like saying when you're feeling that way because then the other partner not taking it personally or not, you know, being upset, we can't find a solution. So I think there's definitely a balance there that both partners need to work on. And that's something that we've definitely have to. That's a great point. Often one partner will blame themselves for their other person's anxiety and it has nothing to do with them. It's because they're either having, like you imagine, an IBS flare up or because they're having a super stressful day at work or because

they just slept badly the previous night or it's reminding them of something that happened five years before the relationship even started. Like it's, you know, and I think there's this, once we take if one person takes on the responsibility for the other person's anxiety, it can be very taxing as opposed to like, oh, my role here isn't to get rid of the anxiety. My role here is to be here with my partner while they're feeling anxious. That's a much easier thing to do than to actually get them unanxious, which frankly, I can't even do. I've been doing this work for 20 years. And people will freak out in sessions with me. And that is not the time to get really. rid of their anxiety. That's the time to be with them.

Yeah. And just be like, okay, we're going to breathe through this. And it's going to happen. It's going to go away when it's going to go away. And let's, you know, that that's what livens the space as opposed to like, okay, we got to stop feeling anxious. Obviously, that's going to make the person feel more tense and make my job harder. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's so good. Okay. Let's get into your book, Thriving with Anxieties, your nine tools to help us thrive. with anxiety. Can you share with us what those are? All nine. Well, we kind of been talking about a couple. I know. We kind of have. We talked about stress. We talked about stress and recalibrating and

rebalancing. So that's tool one, actually. We also talked about like a lot, the couple stuff and relationship. I'll tell you the way the book's like divided up. So the first part is about how anxiety can enhance our relationship with ourselves. So greater self-awareness, greater understanding of what your needs are, greater rebalancing, recalibes. and greater resilience, which maybe we'll come back to. But that's certainly one of the skills is to be able to use anxiety to build your resilience, just like you use physical pain in a gym in order to build your muscles. So that's the first set of skills.

The second one relates to our relationships with others. And we talked to actually quite a bit about this already, how it can help you to be more empathic and understand other people. It can help you to connect with people. and it can also enhance intimacy, emotional intimacy and connection when we use those anxious moments, intense moments,

in order to be there for people, as opposed to trying to fix it or change it. Just simply like proverbially holding someone's hand or having them cry on your shoulder can deeply enhance emotional and even eventually physical connection, which is pretty cool. And then the last part of the book

is actually about spirituality, which is something the publishers wanted me to dive right into, and I didn't shy away from it, and how people can self-actualize their greatest, I believe, their greatest potential in this world, if you're doing something that you really want to do, you're going to feel anxious. It's going to be tough.

You're going to be budding up against barriers and overcoming them and moving forward and all of that tension means we have to accept it and realize that anxiety is a part of it and then moving over it or what I call transcending anxiety. Those are the three main parts of the book and each of those have three skills, hence nine.

Yeah. Do we talk about this already? What is the connection spiral? Yeah, connection spiral. That's what's other people. So I'll talk about the disconnection spiral first, which is that starts with other people are doing things that we don't like, right?

Like, does that only happen to me? Right? Happens everyone, right? And then if we're thinking about it really, we're actually feeling a little bit uncomfortable, like, oh no, what's going on here? Why are they doing that? It usually brings up a deal of anxiety for us if we're actually aware of it.

But instead of actually expressing that, we tend to blame the person, disconnect from the person, try to get them to change. You know, all of these processes which are usually make the situation worse and they're not really taking the anxiety head on. As opposed to a connection where we actually just talk about what we're really feeling. Like, hey, what you're doing is really stressing me out and making it hard for me. And I'm not blaming you. I'm just letting you know, this is my emotional landscape right now. And usually that defuses things, takes things down a good notch, and enables the person to be like, okay, like, I get that. Like, that's a raw spot for you.

That's something I have to tread around carefully in order to have this connection. We have to, you know, navigate this together. And connection spirals when we, instead of getting into that judgment, getting into attacking mode, what drawing mode, we're actually really speaking from the heart and saying like, hey, this is what I need right now, and this is why I'm feeling really tense. And usually that settles things down

and brings about a lot more love and connection in the world. Not always, but it's the best card to play in order to get there. something that I've had to work on a decent amount is realizing what is out of my control and accepting that and moving on. You do talk about this. What would your advice be to letting go and accepting the things that are out of our control in life? Okay, firstly, no wonder you don't have that, you know, that much anxiety day to day. I mean, if you can get to a place of being okay, not being control, there's not much to be anxious about.

Yeah. Right. Like if you can sit down on a plane and be okay, down in a seat in an airplane and be okay, not having any control over the cockpit, not even knowing what the flight plata is and just like surrendering and letting go. Opposite of me. Yeah. You know, God bless. if you can do that. Sounds like you both have something to teach each other, by the way.

You're a good team. That is at the core of anxiety. And when we can, you know, let go, that's another spiritual tool. Recognizing that humans are just so limited in our capacity to control things. I mean, yes, we have work to do and, you know, you got to do what you can. but at the end of the day, let's be realistic, how many factors come from left field that can totally throw us off our horse or can make us super successful and they have nothing to do with our real efforts.

That humility is something that anxiety can help us to embrace, I believe, to go there, just accept it. And it's not easy, but that's, you know, There's a great opportunity there. Yeah, for sure. It definitely seems like a lot of anxiety comes from the feeling of loss of control, like when you can't control the situation, whether it's, you know, like he said, like, you know, people that have anxiety flying or whatever it is.

Like it's a lot like feeling like you're out of control. Yeah. Yeah, that's if we could all master that and just brush it off our shoulder. Yeah. Well, I saw this during COVID that some people did this and they were like, okay, like, this is actually out of my control. I'm going to do the best I can, you know, through whatever does social distancing or, you know, or whatever people had to do at the time. But at the end of the day, like there's only so much.

And those were for such people, I actually saw amounts of growth during those months. that I don't think they even previously had. They were parlaying their anxiety into an opportunity to move forward. Now, granted, for those of us in healthcare, that was a very hard thing to do because you're faced with these incredible stress. So the stress, I think, makes it harder

to deal with the anxiety if you have both, like if you're so stressed out, you know, dealing with so many things and having so many patients to deal with and colleagues and hospitals, and it was crazy. So that, I think, made it harder, but in theory, if the stress were lower,

to be able to get to that place of acceptance could actually be a really great thing. Yeah. Wow. So good. Did you get into some holiday stuff? Yeah. One of the reasons we were super excited to talk to you is because the timing is perfect. Because I feel like there is a lot of people that deal with heightened anxiety around the holiday season.

You know, we're nearing the end of the year where there's a lot of social gatherings. And, you know, friends, family, strangers. Family dynamics, all of that. Just this season, I feel like, is a tough one for many. What would your biggest tips be for navigating the influx of social interactions during, you know, the next upcoming weeks? Great. First, I'm going to tell you what not to do, okay?

Okay. Here are ways to not, things that you should not be doing at this time. Okay, don't not think about the family dynamics. Don't think like, okay, I'm just going to distract myself and pretend that everything is going to be okay. Don't sit down at the Thanksgiving is gone now, but, you know, a Christmas table or whatever it is and just drink away your sorrows. Don't talk, not talk to other people about what's going on in your mind. Don't load yourself up with tons of work. So that way you don't have to think about it because you're just drowning, you know, drowning it away with what you have to do.

Don't overspend because you're going to have to pay for that in January. And all of these are the primary reasons why anxiety gets so intense this time of year and also going into January. Like instead, there's one core approach, which is recognizing you're going to feel tense. If you have complicated family dynamics, they are going to come up. Think about it in advance. How are we going to navigate that? Who's the friend who you're going to call when you're feeling like you want to cry

because of something that, you know, mom, dad, or sister or brother said at the table. Like, who is that person? What will you say to them? Will you text them? Will you actually call them? All the other things that I was saying before are efforts to not think about our anxiety, to not experience it. And then we push it away and push it away and push it away.

And then all of a sudden it just breaks through and pushes us down as opposed to like, no, I know this is going to be uncomfortable and I'm going to deal with this. So if you had an anxious holiday season, last year, that's a signal that you need to be on top of that through planning and knowing what you're going to do, having a game plan. Right. How do you, like, approach the topic of boundaries, maybe, like, for someone that hasn't set, you know, a boundary with their family before?

Yeah, great questions. Often people don't set those boundaries because they're awkward. They're awkward to set to say, like, I'm not going to talk to, you know, mom about that topic ever again. like we are just not going to talk about that subject, not going to talk about that relationship or this aspect of my job or money or whatever it is. And just to know, like, this is an explosive conversation and I need to set that boundary.

Or if people say or do certain things and you know that they're going to do that, think to yourself, can I ignore it? Okay, if you can, fine. If not, how are you going to deal with that? Are you going to walk away? Are you going to engage the person? What's going to be the most productive?

You know, usually this requires conversations with yourself, with the loved one, maybe with a therapist in advance and planning it out because these dynamics are important and hard. They're hard to manage, challenging. But this is this is what anxiety is telling us to do. It's it's calling upon us. Like, we have to deal with this. Yeah. Yeah. Boundaries is a tough one.

But it's so important. But it's definitely a tricky one. you know, for whatever reason, you know. How's that? I mean, afraid of the repercussions. If you do, you know, set a boundary and how the person you're setting that boundary with is going to perceive it. If they're going to be like, okay, great. If they're going to be like explode or like, I think that's, I think that's probably what you mean.

Because in my mind, if you were to like, you know, set a healthy boundary. But just like let it be known. I feel like it's not often, not incredibly often, that that person goes, okay, yeah, I totally hear you and I respect that and let's move on. Like, it usually doesn't go like that. Usually not. Yeah, I want to make something clear. Just because you set a boundary doesn't mean you have to necessarily explain that to the person. Right.

Right. It could be that like you don't talk to, I don't know, you know, certain family member about certain topic. And when the topic comes up, you just make yourself busy and scoot around it. And that's a boundary for you, but you don't have to tell the person because that's just going to blow things up and make things awkward. So you can you can do that and hold yourself accountable and even tell a friend. Like this, you know, this holiday season, I'm not going to talk to person X about topic Y. That's one of my goals. And that's a great thing to do.

Yeah. I feel like for, I mean, for those people listening who are like, I want to make set a boundary, but I'm scared. I feel like for like the first time I set a boundary with my family, it was like I was it was hard. It was very hard to do. Hard on both ends. It's hard for me to like express myself or even just do it because that's terrifying. Like, you know. A lot of us have never done it before.

Yeah. And I feel like once that first boundary was set in both parties, you know, accepted it. And it was in place. I felt like it is so much easier for me to set boundaries. with that specific, you know, person or family or friends, whatever, but I've been able to actually incorporate that now into my friendships, into my work commitments, into whatever it is. I've been, it's been a lot easier for me to set boundaries.

So I do just want to encourage people that are listening. Like, I understand it's so scary setting that first boundary because I, you know, I put the first time I ever set a boundary. I put it off for years. I'm very non-confrontational people-placing person, but I do feel like after you like figure out like, you know, get comfortable saying that because that's a very uncomfortable thing to do to set a boundary, especially if you don't want to like upset another person. But knowing that's like what is best for you, it definitely like has gone easier for me. And I've felt that growth in myself, which we've talked about like over the past year. I've definitely gotten more confident in, you know, speaking up for myself. or saying things that I want or that I don't want. But yeah.

Amen to all that. Yeah, brilliant. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I guess lastly, maybe we just end on is like how can we best support someone struggling like during the holidays. Yeah, great question. You were going to say, Taylor? No. Well, for me, I just, when she asked the question, I was just like thinking about it selfishly for me.

And it was just like for me it goes back to kind of what we started with, which is just like being there. Yeah. You know, just like not trying to perfectly solve the situation and insert, you know, opinions. And, you know, I've learned for you. And I'm sure this is the case for many is just understand that it's going to come. It's normal. And to just let that person know that you are there for them. And that's that was my, that was my personal answer.

But I'm curious to hear yours because. All right. I'm glad our little couple sessions took some root over there. It's nice. So it's important to know that firstly, if somebody doesn't want to be helped, you can't help them. And that's a hard thing for me as a clinician. Because sometimes you meet people and they're just not ready to make a step, to make a decision, to set a boundary, to do whatever it is.

and sometimes there's not much you can do and people are going to, sometimes it's just going to be a bit of a train wreck and you have to be more, like Taylor said, just being there for them. I would also encourage people who have loved ones who are struggling with anxiety simply to like, you know,

Taylor, I think you nailed it. You know, don't get them, don't get them to change. Just be there with them, support them, use the opportunity to enhance your connection with them. and hopefully, you know, bring that into the new year. Even if they have a really rough holiday season, at least your relationship with them can be stronger. Who doesn't need that?

Exactly. Yep. For sure. Wow. I'm like thinking back on like everything we just talked about. I'm really excited to listen to this back. Yeah. It's a very fascinating conversation that many people need to hear.

But everything we talked about today is something that we both, you know, struggle with and go through. that we are definitely not the only people. Yeah. So I think a lot of people are going to, you know, relate to this and I'm definitely going to take away a lot of stuff. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your expertise with us. Yeah, that was, this is, this was lovely.

Thank you both for all you're doing and for having me on your show. Really appreciate it. Of course. We're going to leave a link, I'm assuming, to your wonderful book Thriving with Anxiety. Yes. Definitely check that out. It's available on audible also. if people want to do the audio book thing.

And I think there's some free giveaways on my website also. So I can send you guys that link if you want to give that to your audience. I'm always looking to engage with people around the subject. It's something that you said, very ubiquitous. Everyone has. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you.

Thank you so much for squeezing us into your day. Please be sure to rate, review, and follow our pod and check out full episodes on YouTube. You can follow me at Taylor Lautner, my lovely wife, at Taye Lautner. Check out The Squeeze on Instagram at The Squeeze. And also give a little glance and a follow to Lemons by Tay. That's at Lemonsbytee on Instagram and lemonsbytea.com. And also be sure to email us, laughtner.com.

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