The Squeeze - Julia Michaels: Second Self

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

In this week’s episode, Tay is back for another girl-talk conversation with Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter Julia Michaels! Julia opens up about how she met her fiancé and why being with someone outside of the music industry has brought a sense of balance to her life. She gets candid about her experience with anxiety and panic attacks—what they feel like, how they’ve evolved over time, and the tools that have helped her cope, including the support of her fiancé. Julia shares when she first started writing about her mental health in her music, what initially drew her to songwriting, and the moment she realized it could become a career. She reflects on her deep love for writing songs for other artists, why “Issues” became the one she kept for herself, and how the process continues to be therapeutic. Julia also talks about setting boundaries, going independent for her new EP Second Self, and what it means to finally own her music!Be sure to follow Julia on https://instagram.com/juliamichaels/!Listen to Julia’s new EP “Second Self” here: https://stem.ffm.to/secondself?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaeXutMZEoxpgj82Hx-c4NFt6Z3afk-LRQyVojz7h3XnJCd96HIVvhEJnFd_bg_aem_GjgwLm1MbJ2KlrdSUjCJMwTo email us your questions or share your story, you can reach out to [e-mail] sure to rate, review, and follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode! Plus, follow us on all of our socials:The SqueezeInstagram: https://instagram.com/thesqueeze/TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@thesqueezepodcastTay LautnerInstagram: https://instagram.com/taylautner/TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@mrstaylautnerAmazon Storefront https://urlgeni.us/amazon/FDXj7 Taylor LautnerInstagram: https://instagram.com/taylorlautner/TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@taylorlautnerTo learn more from The Lemons Foundation, follow https://instagram.com/lemonsbytay/ and visit lemonsbytay.comEpisode Sponsors:Right now, Tonal is offering our listeners $200 off your Tonal purchase with promo code SQUEEZE. That’s Tonal.com, and use promo code SQUEEZE for $200 off your purchase.Upgrade your Summer. Go to cozyearth.com and use code SQUEEZE for 40% off best-selling temperature-regulating sheets, apparel, and more. Trust me—you’ll feel the difference the very first night. Sleep Cooler, Lounge Lighter, Stay Cozy.It Pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com/creditcard.Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch Calendars by going to SkylightCal.com/SQUEEZE.For a limited time, Tempo is offering my listeners SIXTY PERCENT OFF your first box! Go to TempoMeals.com/SQUEEZE. Rules and restrictions may apply.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I just signed my first publishing deal. I had always written songs because I just loved writing songs. Hum things, write poetry, and then I would turn them into songs. I didn't even know that that was a job. Turn 18 and I signed that deal, it became very real. Had this pressure to perform. Yeah. That just ate me.

up. I had just a publisher that was like working me dry. Yeah. I would be in like three sessions a day. Just be exhausted like running off of like coffee and barely any food. One day I just had like one of the scariest like panic attack that I've ever had was in one of my friends' kitchens. We were writing songs and I just felt my heart go crazy. Drop to the floor. Couldn't catch my breath. Didn't know what it was. I thought it was dying. My anxiety turned to panic attacks when I was like 21. Good you by Selena had come out and gone number one and then sorry for Justin had gone number one and then Hans myself had gone number one and it was like almost back to back to back like real success as a songwriter. This fear that I was going to walk into a room and people were going to

like expect me to like shit gold. Julia, welcome to the squeeze. Thanks for having me. I am so excited to have you because not in chronological order is one of my favorite albums. Thank you. That's so nice. Like, you're, I just love like your songwriting and you as an artist and your voice. So this is like, really exciting. Thank you. Well, happy to be here. Talk about our feelings. Oh my gosh. The best. Okay. So we start off with a little game. This jars, it's called citrus got real. Okay. You want to pull a little piece of paper out of there. Okay. And read the question. Okay. Let's see. Which holiday would you celebrate once a month if you could? I think it would be like Thanksgiving. for me. One, love food. Love me some food. But I also, so I always throw like a massive Thanksgiving in my backyard every year for all my friends that don't have a lot of family here and I don't have family here. So it's really nice to just be surrounded by like all my chosen family. And we have like 40 people in the backyard and it's just like so cozy and warm. And if I could just replicate that once a month, I would be like just in heaven. Oh my gosh. I love that. That's so sweet. I'm trying to think what mine would be. Like, yeah, maybe it would be that. I also like, I love Christmas because it's like cozy. Like I'm like a sucker for like a twinkly tree. Oh yeah. And a onesie. For sure. Usually around July is when I start getting the itch. I'm like, we need Christmas movies. Yeah. It's time. I know. I actually recently was just like thinking about how I'm excited for summer. And then I was like, I actually wonder how long this is going to last because I'm just like waiting for the switch to come. Like I was laughing.

at myself. I'm going to be eating my own words in like a couple months when it's like a hundred degrees. I'm like, there's the fall. It also goes so fast. I feel like it's like January and then it's June and then it's Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas. It just goes so fast. So we're like, oh, we miss Christmas, but it's literally going to be here like tomorrow. I feel like this year has gone by. Flown. Like, I think the quickest flown. Any year has gone by. Could not. Great. Agree more. That is not just me. I'm like, I've like, stress me. Like the month is over. Like how, how does this keep?

I mean, clearly it keeps happening because that's how time works. Yeah. Time does work like that. How does this keep happening? Okay, you recently got engaged. I did. Congrats. Thanks, girls.

How did you guys meet? I slid into his DMs, actually. It's kind of a long story, but not really. I did this like interview like, for Ink Magazine a while back and I got to be on the cover and I I followed them on Instagram and you know every once in a while though They'll show like a cool new tattoo artist like that and I was just scrolling and I saw this picture of this tattoo that was really funny and really cool I don't remember what it was at the time, but it was like it was realistic like hyper realistic on one part and then like the cartoon on another yeah and

And I was like, that's so cool. I've never seen anything like that before. And I went to his page and I saw that he was French. And I was like, oh, he's in Paris. I'm going to Paris with all of my friends soon. Like, would love to get a tattoo. Yeah. And I was in a relationship at the time. So it wasn't like anything. Like, you know, I was just like, this is cool art. would love to get a tattoo. We picked a day.

Yeah. This was in March of 2020 that I'm supposed to go. So I go with my friends. This is like right when the pandemic is popping off. Yeah. We're like, do we even go still? And my friends are like, no, they're saying it's like the flu. You know, like we don't fucking know. Yeah. How would you? Yeah. And so we ended up going, you know, like it's chaos in the States. But we go there and no one's wearing masks. Like everything's okay. And, but then we're, we're going. And, but we start hearing more and more. And I basically just ghosted him. I didn't go to the appointment.

I was like, people are dying? Like, priorities? Um, and then never really talk to him again. And then, um, my ex and I broke up and I was going to New York with my mom.

Okay. And, um, I was scrolling and I saw he was going to be there doing like a residency. And I DMed him and was like, oh my gosh, like you're going to be there. would love to get a tattoo finally.

Yeah. And we just started talking and like just the conversation was really nice. Yeah. I was like, when's your birthday? And he was like, are you asking for my sign? I'm a Scorpio November 13th. I was like, wait, that's my birthday. And I was like, this motherfucker just like Google my birthday or something.

Just to like be funny. and I was like, prove it. And he sends me like the little blurb on his like ID. I was like, that's so weird. I was like, do we look alike too, L.O.L? And he sends me a picture of himself. And I was like,

hi. And we kind of do weirdly like look alike a little bit. But he so love him so much. And I'm, yeah, so excited. Oh my gosh. So yeah, we like met New York. I ended up not getting a tattoo. and just we spent some lovely time together.

And that was pretty much it. We've been together ever since. I love that. Wait, that's crazy. You have the same birthday? The same birthday. I say that as someone who is married to someone with the, now we have the exact same name.

And I'm like shocked about your birthday. But I feel like that is crazy. Yeah. Four, three years, three years apart. Yeah. But the same day. Yeah. So it's always because we do, like, we don't look alike,

but we both have black hair. We're both covered in tattoos. She was both of hazel eyes. And like we celebrate our birthday together. And I always feel like I have to prep. I'm like, no, we're not twins. Yeah. No, no, no, no.

Like, no. That's funny. One of my good friends actually, him and I have the same birthday. And I'm an only child. And he's also an only child. So we always grew up like wanting a sibling or like a shared birthday. And like now we share our birthday together with our friends. So it's like it's funny that that has like happened later in life.

Has he tattooed you at all? No. He hasn't. But we talked about doing mashing tattoos after our wedding. So I think we're going to do that. We did. Taylor and I have like our wedding date. Yeah, we, I think we're going to get, I think we're going to get some numbers as well from like when we first started like really dating.

Yeah. Just like significance of it. I love that. He does really good stuff. I was like stocking him today. Did you peep? I peep. He's so talented.

I know. He's so hot. I can see the more. Love him so much. Is it, I want to ask you this, is it nice dating someone that is not in the same industry as you? Oh my gosh. It's glorious.

Oh my God. I have unfortunately dated quite a few people in the music industry. I tend to shit where I eat a lot. My husband did the same time for a long time. It's awful. Don't recommend. Don't don't. I did want to ask you this because I was reading an article, obviously, about you guys being engaged.

And this is something that Taylor and I talk about a lot is when we got engaged, when we got married, in those articles, it always is like, he's also dated this person and this person and this person. And when I was reading some articles today, the same thing was there. Oh, my gosh. What are your thoughts to that? And how do you like, luckily he's. How do you sound that out? I guess for him, too. Yeah, luckily he's not really a jealous person.

Yeah, and he's like, I mean, if you wanted to be with them, you would have been, you know? Yeah. Obviously, love is a choice, and I choose him every day. But it is really frustrating when you can't, you can't, like, move away from your past. You know? And I know a lot of it is clickbait shit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Which is so tragic. Yeah. But he's, he's just truly the loveliest about all of it. He's so understanding. Thank God. That's sweet. Yeah. Taylor all the time. I mean, obviously, he's dated a lot of notable people that I have been fans of even like before we were together. And I am not the jealous type, if anything, I actually. I'm weird because I like to actually hear about some of these things just because it like helps me know who he is. Like behind close doors,

what were his relationships before. Like, because it like gives me insight into him and maybe how his mind works. If I'm doing something that maybe someone else did and maybe it like triggers him or whatever. Yeah. But luckily my man only listens to French rap and doesn't know who the fuck any of my exes are.

So. That's so good. But when, so Taylor obviously did a music video with Taylor Swift like a couple years ago. Yeah, I guess a couple years ago now. And I was getting asked about, like, his ex so much. And, like, he was like, it's just like, obviously, like you're, like, they barely dated. I don't care. Yeah. I love her. She's a lovely human. And he's like, it's like, it's just like, he was getting frustrated for me. Like, the fact that so many people keep, like, bringing this up to you, like, if it was any other world like that. Yeah. That wouldn't be the thing. Yeah. I mean, he, he is not. He is not. not in the public eye at all. Like, he's obviously very well respected in his field, but nobody in the tattoo community is going to be like, hey, so she dated this person. Like, they don't give a buck.

So he, he doesn't have to deal with any of that, which is really nice. And honestly, I've gotten really good at dodging questions from people when they ask me stupid questions about people that I don't care to talk about. I know. You know? Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's, it's an interesting world. But I saw that and I was like, I want to ask her, like, her opinion, opinion or like advice on that. Because it's like, it's just like, it's an article that's celebrating like your love and celebrating this like next chapter for you. But then they have to add in like, I know. I'm like, why do we, why do we? To be honest, I don't, I don't really look at those things. Yeah. You know, like they don't. enhance my life in any capacity. Yeah. You know, like, I'm in love and I'm happy and I'm getting married. And like, that's just the bottom line.

And I feel like I would go fucking crazy if I looked at that stuff all the time. Like, I don't really need constant reminders of the way that I wasn't loved right or the way that I wasn't treated right. Yeah. When I'm being loved the way that I want to know. Yeah. That's so good. You know. I love that you have that. That love and that. Me too. He's so great. He best. Love him. I love that. Let's be honest. We have a million things we worry about every single day and getting in a good workout shouldn't be one of them. That's where Tonel comes in. Tonel will pick the perfect weight, track your progress, and suggest what to do next based on your muscle readiness, taking the guesswork out of getting a great workout in. If you haven't heard of Tonel, Tonel is the world's smartest workout that effortlessly fits and, the busiest of lifestyles. And with the latest iteration, Tonal 2, you can ensure your workout is more tailored and effective than ever. Tonal adjust in one pound increments with adaptive weight that now goes up to 250 pounds challenging even the most advanced users to push their limits. With new drop

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and I think that I had always written songs because I just loved writing songs. I started writing songs really young. Before I even knew what it was, I didn't even know. I would just hum things or I'd write things down or I would

write poetry and then I would turn them into songs. I didn't even know that that was a job. Yeah. And I think when I turned 18 and I signed that deal it became very real that I now had this

pressure to perform and I think that just ate me up and I didn't have a manager at the time I had just a publisher that was like working me dry

I would be in like three sessions a day and just be exhausted and like running off of like coffee and barely any food. Yeah. And one day I just had like one of the scariest like panic attack like that I've ever had. I was in one of my friends' kitchens. We were writing songs and I just felt my heart go crazy.

Yeah. And I just like dropped to the floor. Just couldn't catch my breath. Wow. Didn't know what it was. I thought it was dying. Yeah. And then went through like a series of tests to.

make sure I wasn't dying and they're like yeah no you're you're just you have anxiety yeah and I was kind of introduced to anxiety because my sister had it okay um but I was always like you're fine everything's fine like I was like nine you know when my sister was 12 or 13 when she had it and I'm like yeah there's nothing wrong what like everything's okay and then you know you go through it yourself and you're like oh my god yeah so sorry that I dismissed your feelings like I had no idea that this is what you were going through. This is horrible. Yeah.

And I had like people in my family when I started having anxiety dismissing my feelings and to just know how it all felt in that moment. But yeah, it started really late in life. And then it was really bad. My anxiety turned to panic attacks when I was like 21. Because 21 was when I started having like real success. as a songwriter. Yeah.

I think like, good for you by Selena had come out and gone number one and then sorry for Justin had gone number one and then Hans to myself had gone number one

and it was like almost back to back to back. And then I had this fear that I was going to walk into a room and people were going to like expect me to like shit gold. Yeah. And I was terrified.

I would have panic attacks in the rooms all the time. And it got to a point where I was like, this this just can't be yeah like my life i can't be having all of these like amazing things that are happening right now yeah and and feel this way and i still have this weird relationship with success yeah i still like when good things are happening i still get those like kind of PTSD like anxiety responses from it um and that's something i've really been trying to work on

in therapy as a 31-year-old woman. Yeah. But yeah, it started later in life for me. Yeah. When did you decide to, like, publicly share about it? I, um, so, uh, I had that success in when I was 21 and when I was 23, um, I signed a record deal with Republic records. Um, and I put out a song called Issues, which was all,

obviously like a very vulnerable song. Yeah. And I think because it was a very vulnerable song, it kind of was my like identifier. Yeah. And then I think people, there was kind of like an expectation that I was going to speak about. Yeah.

Things that I was going through. And I'm an open book. Like I have no problem talking about these things. You know, if it helps somebody in Nebraska that's watching, you know, then amazing. But yeah, I think, I mean, I was pretty open about it right away because I was actively living in it.

I had to start performing. I had never really performed before. I learned how to sing on the mic in the dark in a booth where I could re-sing it 80 times and no one was going to judge me. And, you know, being in front of people that you don't know and how raw and vulnerable and scary. that is. Yeah.

I was petrified, like, everywhere I went. I think there was, like, an entire year where I just had nothing but anxiety. I even tried to, like, run away from a few events because I was just, like, crippled with anxiety. It was awful. Yeah. That is, I relate to a level all not because it's just, it's the worst. And it's also, I feel like you, you almost can't, like, validate yourself. Like, I've, I've been in a season right.

now where I've been having a bit more panic attacks. I've, same. I worked as, I worked as a COVID nurse in 2020. Well, and then, well, thank you for all your help. Thank you. But, um, I obviously, like, develop PTSD and a lot of stuff from that. And that was when a lot of my stuff was going on. And now I'm like, removed from it. But at the same time, I'm like, I've like, I've had like three panic attacks this month. Like, I'm like, I thought I was past. this and I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of like, at times I feel like I'm like getting discouraged, but I'm like, no, actually like, it's maybe just a reminder for me that I need to like check in. Like, even just when's the last time you had a glass of water? When's the last time like your skin

saw the sun? Like that kind of a thing. No, I get it. I literally woke up this morning. Like I couldn't sleep. I woke up feeling like so dizzy and my nose was bleeding and I was like, cool. Like, sure. Like we're just how we're going to start a day. Let's go. And I like, I'm going through so many beautiful things right now, but also going through, like, a couple tough things. And I was talking to my therapist about it. And I was like, my anxiety is so bad right now, because I am so sensitive. Yeah. Like, and I'm, I'm such a, like, routine kind of a person. And they keep the same people around me. And so when, like, the synergy of that gets, like, knocked off, even just a little bit. My whole body just feels it and I'm like so stressed and I like takes me forever to get back

onto and my therapist is like I would be really surprised right now if you weren't anxious with like everything that you're going through. And she's like honestly I think that you need to just have anxiety right now. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. And I'm like, oh yeah, I guess so. Like it kind of sucks that it's happening but like this two shall pass. Yeah. You know, it's not going to be here forever. Yeah. I have to remember. And my anxiety comes in waves. Like, sometimes it will be so bad. Yeah. And then I'll have like a month where I have none of it. And I'm like, wow. Yeah. Like I'm thriving. Yeah. And then she'll just come up. Yeah. And I'm like, cool. Like, how long are you staying here? Like, yeah. I'm going to try to rent now. Like, this is literally. This is crazy. Yeah. I feel like that's like,

I get frustrated when I start to struggle again. But at the same time, I'm like, no, like, I'm, like, I'm not going to let this take like have power over me. Period. Even though it definitely has power sometimes, but I know that there will be like another side to it. Do you have, do you have like your kind of like go to to get yourself out of it methods? Um, sometimes yes. I have recently realized though that I was being naughty and normally, normally, normally,

my husband knows when I'm like, I'm like, I'm a workaholic too. Like I cannot sit still. Like I feel like I'm being lazy if I even just like take like an hour like sit. And I could work for 12 hours. And I'm like, well, no, I need to be doing something. Yeah. It's something that I need to work through. And he is the opposite of that. Like he's very good. Like when it's downtime. It's, he's not doing anything. Yeah. And I found myself kind of like keeping that I was stressed going on because there was a lot of stuff that had to be done. We have like personal stuff going on. And I. over summer. And I was keeping from him that I was anxious because normally I'll tell him when I am feeling anxious if I like need to lay in bed for the day. I'll have like a work from bed day.

Is he really like forgiving? Yeah. That's that's great. And he he knows and he's like my voice of reason. He's like, you need to chill. Like let's say no to this. And let's, but I wasn't telling him I was anxious. So I was saying yes, everything. And I didn't have my voice of reason. And then I had snowball of panic attacks. And I was like, I can't like, shame on me for doing that. Like, I can't. That was the first time I ever did it. I was like, oh, frick, like, I'm, my brain has gotten, she's learned that I normally I go to him and I'm like, hey, like, I'm kind of struggling with this. Yeah.

And she didn't want me to go to him. And I didn't. And I mean, luckily it's. Nothing worse than having it like take it on yourself too. Yeah. He, he, God, I tend to be a bit of a martyr in the sense that I'm like, no, I got this. Yeah. I can handle like, oh, this is, I'm going to make this more complicated for myself.

Yeah. So that I don't burden everybody else. And it's like, literally. It's like, that's why people are in our lives that love us. Like, that's why they're here. And they want to be there for you and vice versa. Yeah. No.

It's, it's, it's so true. Especially when I know I'm going to be going through something or I'm going through something. I'll be like, this is this might not be affecting me right now yeah but it might affect me in a couple of weeks yeah and just know that like if it does I'm sorry this is just what it's going to be for a little bit and he's like totally understand I got you yeah and he's so patient and like he can always tell to if I'm going through something and he he'll be like do you want to take a bath or something like water for me is like

I need to be around water, in water, by water, something. That for me, like when I'm having anxiety, like a bath, a long shower, like just the sound of water even calms me down. Yeah. And he can like just see it on my face.

He'd be like, bath? I'm like, yeah, okay. And sometimes we'll like, we'll do one together. And he'll be like, do you want to talk about it? And sometimes I will. And sometimes I won't because sometimes I like need to even just process it myself.

Yeah. Before I can even talk about it out loud. Yeah. You know, Taylor always asks me because sometimes, sometimes I do, I have OCD. So I definitely like spiral with things and that can like bring it on. But sometimes it's just like there's nothing. And all of a sudden I'm crying and I like need my inhaler. I can't breathe like type thing.

Yeah. And he always will be like, is there anything that caused it? And I'm like, he's like, it's okay if there's not. not. And I'm like, no, there's not. He's like, that's okay. And he just like, it's so, it's so cool. And like, I want this type of relationship for like everyone, like not even just my friends, like everyone. Like having a partner that I can literally go to sobbing. I know he's not going to ask me any questions. Like when the time is right, he will. I know he's not going to judge me. I know he's literally just, he will just hold me and I'll sob. And even if it's like the dumbest thing that sent me, he's like,

well, if we're going to work through it or like, it's fine. Or you have a lot of And like, he's just so reassuring. Same. Being with him is the first relationship I've ever, like, I think it comes down to, like, respect, too. I always say, like, people are like, what's your favorite quality about him? Like, that he respects me. And he's like, you make me sound so dumb. Like, when you say that, I'm like, no.

Like, you would think that's just like a common, like a normal common sense thing? But it's not, which is so sad. Weird. Maybe we need to like re-evaluate things. But I've never like described someone like that before. And he was like, what do you like, what do you even mean? I'm like, you actually like respect me as a human. You actually care what I think.

You actually care that I'm doing well. You care that I'm thriving. Like he actually cares about everything for me, which I feel like is so important. And sometimes I'm like, I literally don't know like what I would do. Without you, period. Yeah. No, literally. Yeah.

Yeah. He knows that my. love languages are physical touch and quality time. Yeah. And so, like, if I'm really stressed, he knows that, like, we could be on the couch and he could put his, like, fucking pinky toe on me. Yeah. And I'm like, yep, I feel loved.

Yeah. It's great. Thank you. Literally. You know, or, like, if I'm really stressed, he's like, what are you doing tomorrow morning? Like, let's go for a walk. Yeah.

Let's go get breakfast together. Let's go spend some time together before you have to go to work. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, that does help me so much. Yeah. You know, and it's, it's really nice having a partner that. that knows that and

like actively tries to like make like our relationship yeah because he knows like obviously if I'm sad or whatever like he's just yeah he's gonna like be there for me and vice versa and yeah

and it's really nice that he sees it and then shows up you know like I feel like I feel like that's also something that should be common in a relationship and isn't Yeah. I saw a TikTok the other day and it was you like, like women choose your men like wisely, your partner for life because that's who is going to be with you like when your parents die.

That's going to who's going to be with you like and you're going to have to deal with death. Yes. With this human. So choose them right because that is like the ultimate like you're going to. I think I commented on that. Oh. To be honest. And I said something like, um, I was like, yeah, I've been with my man through both of his grandparents. passing away. He's been with me through like two major surgeries that I had to have. Yeah. And like basically we started dating in July. I had this like heart surgery in August. And he was like calling my mom, make it like try like he flew to come be there and sleep next to me in the hospital and had to like help me even get to the toilet so I could pee and like just. And he.

it was like honestly I knew that I had feelings for him but it was it was that and him being so willing to take care of me when we had basically just met and he I was like wow like this is my

person when I was with my ex I started having like these little hurt issues and I was like letting him know that this was probably going to be a possibility that I was going to have to have this surgery. And he said to me, I hope I'm in town

for that. Isn't that amazing? I love when, I love when boys be boying, you know what I mean? Yeah, he said, I hope I'm in town for that. And this man I met him, and then literally a month later, he was sleeping. He made himself in town next to me. Yes, absolutely. And then took care of me, hung out with my mom for an entire week. They got to know each other and they were watching movies and like playing board games together and like taking care of me. And I was just like, yeah, this is literally the man I'm going to marry. Period.

Ladies, if you take anything away from this episode, it's you just find a man like we have. Find a man. Find a man. Period. Literally period. I actually even forgot we were filming. I was like so locked into this conversation. I'm like, what are even, what am I even supposed to be talking about?

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Wait, okay, no, you did want, you didn't mention something that I, it's not on my thing, but you said it, so I'm going to ask you. I feel like something that I've learned, I didn't like grow up in, we grew up very similar in the Santa Clarita world. my first entrance into this industry was when my husband and I started dating. And even then, like, he is the most normal, like, famous person I've ever, like, I forget. Yeah, of course. He's, like, lived an entire life before if I knew him.

And I find it interesting that I talked to, like, obviously with this podcast, talked to a lot of people that have had fame and success and are on Netflix shows and doing this, that and the other. And they all say a very similar thing that you said that. when they're having the success and then they are struggling with their mental health, it's hard for people to, like, validate, like, I shouldn't be feeling this way if I'm having the success. Like, who gets to say they have, they are starring in the number one show on Netflix. Who gets to say they have a song at the top of the charts, whatever it may be? Right. And, like, it's this weird, like, mind fuck thing that happens when it's like, even though there is good things happening, like, it's hard to, like, there's so many people

that would want to be in my shoes. Like, how, like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Like, I should be excited. I should be this. And kind of, like, invalidating yourself. How have you grown to validate yourself, I guess, through those thoughts? Um, you're fine. Um, I haven't. I don't yet. I don't think. Yeah. I definitely try to be like forgiving with myself. Yeah. But I think everything is relative.

Yeah. You know. Just because, you know, you're working on a set and, you know, you're struggling with your mental, like doesn't mean you're not allowed. Yeah. To struggle with your mental health. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, of course. like that's stressful. It's a lot of pressure. Like of course you're allowed to to have that. And so I think I just I just try to give myself grace as much as possible honestly. And I try to be you know forgiving. Yeah. It's hard too though when you see comments from people that are like, oh, you asked for this. Yeah. And it was like, yeah, I didn't ask me like bullied online and like be treated like Kakita by like a bunch of people

I don't fucking know. Yeah. That's someone I asked for. Yeah. It's so interesting. I had this, mind you, I don't, like, I would not call myself a famous person at all. And I had this girl come up to me.

Me too, honestly. Like, I wouldn't do that. Yeah. Like, I don't. I'm not being followed by people. Yeah. On the regular. Like, I get to just like make songs and like,

honestly, I walk down the street. Nobody knows who the fuck I am. I'm like, great. Love that. That's the kind of success I subscribe for. But this girl, she's probably like, 18, maybe. She came up to me and she was like, she said something like, I love your podcast, whatever. And she was like, I didn't realize that famous people struggled with their mental health.

And I was like, it's not just like a, if anything, honestly, like, if everyone struggles with mental health. And I feel like fame just honestly brings on this weird level of mental health struggles that I didn't personally ever see my struggle with that weren't, like, it's just, it's this weird thing, but it's so interesting that the public has this opinion that just, because you have money, because you have success, because you have whatever, like, you don't have any problems. Or you don't have any feelings either. Yeah. It's like, we're like robots. Yeah. That's not obviously true at all. It's such, it's such like an interesting, it's an interesting, like, balance of, I don't know, people's opinion. I don't know. It's a weird. It's a weird thing.

Luckily, I feel like I'm... It's a weird world. It is. It really is. I feel like I'm like, luckily on like the outside of it and my husband has a very loving fan base. So I don't ever have to like... That's good.

Whenever we have like a reality person on the podcast, I just know the hate comments are coming in because that's like who comes in comments on the main thing. Yeah, I typically have like really lovely fans. It's like it's typically sometimes the fans of the artists that I write with that's sometimes have something to say about me for some reason. With a lot of artists that have big fan bases. So I could see that. And sometimes they're not that nice to me.

I'm like, I don't know why. Like, I love the person that you root for so much. Like, so I don't know why you're coming for me. But sure. Yeah. It's a fun world, fun world that we live in. Okay, I want to talk about songwriting. We kind of touched on it. You started writing when you were a kid. Is that always what you wanted to do? Like were you ever like I want to do that I don't know. Corporate job? I don't know. Was that what you wanted to do?

I, when I was in high school, I was taking electives for forensic science because I thought that I might go to school to do something like that. But that was because I just didn't know that you could actually have a career. as a songwriter. Like, I didn't know that was a thing, really. Yeah. My sister would sing, like, demos around the city. Well, I knew by 17,

by 16, it was 16, that you could, but I didn't know you could, like, live off of being a songwriter. Yeah. You know, my dad had moved here to be an actor, and that didn't really work out

the way that he wanted it to. Yeah. And I think when I started showing a lot of interest in songwriting, he was like, no, like, you're going to school. You know, it was like that kind of a vibe. And my sister, when I was like 15, 16, was singing kind of some demos around the city, which basically, I don't, it doesn't really work like that these days. Yeah. But when I was coming up, basically like songwriters would write a song, and if they wanted to pitch it, to an artist, they would hire someone like my sister that could kind of like sing it in the same way,

emot it the same way in order to pitch it. And so my sister would do a lot of that and get paid for doing that. And then I would just sort of follow her around the city sometimes. And my mom had come with us one day and God love her. But she lives in Nashville now and I'm very grateful for the space. But she, hi mom, I love you. She knows. Love you. And we went to this woman's house. Her name's Jolene Bell.

And my mom was like, you should sing for her. And I was like, Mom, like, and I ended up like singing a song for her on the piano. And she was like, do you write songs? And I was like, well, I like to like, you know, pretend that I can. And she was like, we should write sometimes. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure. And I remember one day I was getting ready to go to the mall to meet a friend of mine, and my mom had picked me up.

And she started going like the opposite direction of the Valencia Mall. Yep. I'm like, mom, where are you going? She was like, you're going to the studio. I was like, but Allison's waiting for me at the mall. Like, what do you do? And yeah, and so I literally went to the studio and I started writing songs with her. And we did a lot of like libraries.

song. So we started in the sync world and more of the like film TV world. And she was doing a lot with like Nickelodeon and Disney at the time. And so we had done a couple songs for the show called Austin and Alley. At this point I'm like

17. And two of the songs get picked up for the show. And the guy that was running the music division at the time for Disney, his name was Steve Vincent. was like, we think you guys should try for the theme song. And we're like, sure. So we try for the theme song.

We don't really hear anything. A week goes by, two weeks go by. And she emails him. She's like, hey, if you need us to write a new one, let us know. We're happy to do that. And he emails her back about an hour later. And it's like, actually, we just found out that it's yours. And so I was 17.

I was like in my math class. I went to an OFL opportunities for learning. And I had math. That was like the last thing I needed to pass. I was like in my math class there. And when I got the call, I was like, bye. And actually didn't tell anybody that it happened because, you know,

you get like 100 knows before you get a yes. And there's always that like, oh my gosh, this is going to happen. And then it doesn't happen. And then everyone's like, oh, hey, whatever happened to that? thing. You're like, oh, well, dig the knife in. And so I actually didn't tell anybody. I signed the papers on my 18th birthday. And then when I actually saw it on TV, I told my parents. Oh, my gosh. And then, yeah, from there, I started writing. And then I started kind of working more with artists from there, like starting around 19. And then, yeah, just kind of kept happening.

crazy to like look at the song that you've written on like it's just it's mind blowing like it's it's so cool i've had a very i'm very grateful i i've seen so many people in the songwriting world especially like come and go yeah like they'll have a hit and it'll be like everywhere and then they just disappear yeah like where and i'm so grateful that i i I'm still here and people still ask me to be in rooms. Yeah. And it's nice because I've, I still work with a few of the people that I came up with.

Yeah. You know, we're still. So it's, it's nice. Like, these are people that I've known since I was 18, 19. You know, again, I'm 31 now.

And so getting to even grow up with these people and change with these people and evolve with these people musically and, like, personally. And it's just been, such a beautiful thing and I'm so happy that, you know, a lot of the people that I worked with when I was 19, I still work with today, even artists, you know. That's special. Yeah, it is special.

It really is. Yeah. I just feel like you have like such a unique, like you're one of those people that I know is so authentically yourself. And I think that's, I think that's a testament to your success is I don't feel like you're trying to like be this person like you're just like you are you and you show up and you are just spill your heart out into these songs thank you thank you i really appreciate that i mean that is that's the point of being in the room you know like we have we have to be vulnerable and like

put whatever foot forward we have to that day you know and whether that person shows up and they want to talk about, you know, a relationship that they're in or things that they're going through or they want to just be like, hey, I want to talk about none of this because I'm avoidant. And, you know, like, I'm like, I'm here for you. Yeah. Whatever that means for you, I'm here for you. Yeah. And I think my, my nature is to nurture.

Yeah. I've always been the person where like, you know, if someone's crying in the studio and I just meet them, like, my first instinct is just, to like mama bear someone. For sure. Or like someone's having a panic attack or something or I'm like here, I have oranges. Like eat something or like, you know, like someone's like freaking out and they're sweating. I'm like, you know, like I'm just like holding their hair and I'm like blowing on their neck. I'm like, you know, I'm just have always been a very like active service kind of a person.

And I think that really kind of like comes in handy in my line of work because like it's not about ego. I don't have a fucking ego, you know, like, I would just want to do what's best for you. Yeah. Like, I just want to do whatever you want to do here. Yeah. And if it turns out amazing, amazing, if not, like, we're human. Yeah. And that's okay.

You know, at least I got to spend a few hours with you and got to, like, get to know you and talk. And if we get to do this again, amazing, if not, like, I'm grateful that I got to have this experience with you. Yeah. You know? That ego thing is so true. because I feel that honestly with you and Benny. Like I feel like Benny is the same.

Like there's like no, we had dinner with him and Selena. Like last time we were in New York, I don't know. It's been a long time. But that was, I think maybe Taylor's been in before. But that was our first time like really sitting down with him. And like, you literally would have no idea. Yeah. Like this dude has even done any, like you would have no clue.

And I feel like you are the same way. And it's cool that I love when success happens to people like that. And it's a reminder to people that are. trying to be successful, like your ego is going to get in the way of your success. And I've seen it, I've seen it ruin a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, I've been doing this for a long time. Yeah. You know, and I think that's a big reason why people come and go. And like, also, like, you can be the best songwriter in the world. But if you're a fucking asshole and you're showing up and it's like it's your way or the highway like no one's going to want to work with you

yeah that's not how it works yeah you know yeah and i've definitely learned that there are there are there are a lot of amazingly talented human beings in this world that are not going to treat you like that even artists like i won't name names but if i'm in a room with someone and they feel like they can be rude to me. I'm like, cool. Like, there's other songwriters that will happily do this with you. Yeah. But I'm not going to sit here and let you treat me like this.

Yeah. That's not what we're doing today. But I'm happy for you. Yeah. And if there's somebody that can stand that with you, then let them do that. But it will never be me. Yeah. Like, thank you.

Yeah. That's a great boundary. Yeah. You know? I'm learning those. It's funny because in my, I found in my business side of my life, I have so many more than I do in my personal life.

Yeah. And I think because in my business life, like as a songwriter, I know what I can do and what I'm capable of. Yeah. And I find a lot of power and who I am in my confidence of knowing that I, can do this.

Yeah. And in my personal life, I don't think I feel powerful. And I, um, and in that I don't have a lot of boundaries. Yeah. Um, which is funny. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, like with business things or with songwriting things or like, with things that are like of principle or of moral, um, I'm like, yeah, no, this isn't fair.

I, I know this isn't fair. Yeah. Um, this isn't right. I know this isn't right. Yeah. And I'm like, cool. I know this is true. I know the situation.

I will leave. Yeah. Or this doesn't serve me or my peace. I will leave. But if it's like personal stuff, I'll forget it. I have no boundaries. I'm like, no, take all my money. I don't guess whatever.

It's fine. We're still learning those. It's like Elmo with the like, you know, with the burning fire. That's literally me and my personal life. Like, at all times. That is so funny. That's like a perfect picture to paint right there too.

Oh my gosh I'm curious do you like songwriting or performing your own music more? Do you like writing for other people or writing for yourself and then like performing it more? I think writing is something that has always been my first love. I absolutely

love the process of songwriting. I love that you can walk into a room and not know anything about the person that you're about to write a song with. And then all of a sudden, an hour later, four hours later, six hours later, you have a song and you get to take it with you and you can listen to your feelings

and you can leave it there. I love that there's this outlet for people in my industry to be able to have... You know, it's like... Yeah. I'm not someone that writes in a journal because I'm like, why would I do that when I could just literally go write about it

and be able to like put it down and have it and like if I want to share it with the world then I get to share it in the world like how cool is that? Yeah. And I love writing with other people because you know like I write one type of genre for myself typically but you know I'm I write all kinds of genres with all kinds of artists and I love, I love that I never know what it's going to be.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Which is funny because I'm such a routine person and this is not routine in the way that we go about songs. Yeah. Like ever. Because you never know who you're going to write with.

Like sometimes people come in and they'll have an idea. Yeah. And it's like, great. Let's write that idea. Or sometimes people will come in and they don't write songs. Yeah. But they'll talk in lyrics. And it's like, oh, great.

Like, all you got to do is talk and we'll just put this in a song. Or sometimes people are so self-sufficient. And I'm like, cool. Like, maybe we just, maybe I'm here to help with, like, structure and, like, a line or two. Or, like, like, sway you into how this can work conceptually. Yeah. You know? And so it's just different all the time.

Yeah. And I love that. And I think performing can sometimes feel a little routine. Yeah. Because it's, you're kind of singing the same songs every night. And, like, you're like, you're. like even though I love being with fans and like seeing the fans and like seeing the songs come to life in real time and like seeing it and be like this is the point yeah like this is

literally the point yeah I think my safe space will always be in a studio in a dimly lit room writing a song yeah about whatever the hell I want to write a song about, you know, like, that was my safe space as a teenager, was being in my room and having my own, like, having my keyboard in my room and writing. Like, that's just always been where I've felt the freest. Yeah. And the safest. That's so good. You know? Yeah. I love that. I love that for you. I did want to ask, have you ever had, like, have you ever had a hard time partying with a song? Like, having writing. I don't know. I don't know. I don't, you could say no and that's not how it works but like have you ever written a song and you were like maybe wanting to

you sing it and you ended up giving it away to someone else and you were like yeah well issues actually was going to be that oh issues was written like in a camp um for somebody else but i was going through something at the time yeah and i think it was like the most personal song that i had written yeah And I'd never really had like an attachment to songs, but I think because it was like my story. Yeah. It felt really weird. I was like, I don't feel comfortable with somebody. Yeah.

Singing my story and not all the time, but sometimes people will, like some artists will say that they wrote it. Yeah. When they didn't. Which is like fine. It's part of like our industry. Yeah. Like, again, doesn't happen all the time, but there are a select few people. And the idea of like being of like my emotional like attachment to the song and like my history in the song.

Yeah. Being like I didn't even like I wasn't there in my own story. Yeah. Was like a weird feeling for me. Yeah. And so that was like kind of the. first time where I was like, I don't know if I can give this to somebody. Yeah.

And I never had the thought of being an artist that was not really like in my plan. Yeah. I always thought I was just going to be like, you know, a Kara D. Gordy or a Diane Warren, you know, someone that was just kind of like behind the scenes, but was just like, you know, writing. Yeah. Writing songs. And yeah, the song was.

was just like a little too personal. And then it was everywhere. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And it happened like much quicker than I had anticipated. Yeah. Was that scary?

Like coming out with your own. Terrifying. Yeah. Terrifying. And it's obviously so different when you've been a part of a song and you get to like watch it. Like come out and, you know, and like obviously support like these artists. that you love. Yeah.

But yeah, oh my gosh, it was so scary because everyone's looking at you. Yeah. And I never had that before. Yeah. I'm like, I'm just a shadow. Like, I'm just like an invisible shadow and I'm fine with that. Yeah. And then it was like everyone was staring at me all at once.

Yeah. And it was so scary. Yeah. I can imagine. Have you grown to enjoy? that more as I mean you've obviously come out with a lot of your own music since that have you learned to enjoy it more or do you still um I don't perform as much as I used to um I I want to but I think I didn't put out music for a while um I was kind of stuck on my label and not that I'm petty um

I just didn't want to give songs to a label that weren't going to help me. And I just was like, I would rather do this on my own than you taking half of everything that I own and doing nothing. And luckily, I had a very amicable split from my label. They were so lovely about letting me go and letting me do this on my own. own and it could have been really nasty and I'm so grateful that it wasn't like shot out to them for being so lovely about letting me leave. But I'm now like in the process of putting up music. Yeah. Which is so nice to be able to do that again. And I just have to say too, like my fans since issues, I mean, they are unwavering.

They are so unconditional. Like, when I don't put out music, they're still there supporting me. They're so lovely, so warm. I really believe you, like, attract what you put out. And so, like, I hope that that is, like, the energy that I give. Yeah. And that is, like, what I have received from my fans, which is just so incredible. Yeah.

And so being able to put out music has been so nice. But I haven't been performing like I have in the past because I didn't have a lot of new music. Yeah. And that's something that we're talking about now. Yeah. But yeah, I feel like, you know, even when I meet people and they know who I am, it's never like frantic or anything like that. A lot of the times people will come up to me and be like, hey, just big fan of your songwriting. And we'll talk about music for a little bit.

And most of the time, which I really love, they won't even be like, can I take a picture with you or anything like that? A lot of times this is like an airport meet where I'm like in my sweatpants. I've got my like Starbucks. You know, so like luckily they're very gracious with me and they're like, oh no, you look like a troll. Like, don't worry. I'm not going to like blast you like this. I love that for you. But yeah, I feel like a lot of my encounters are just like, it's like almost like seeing old friends.

Like you're like, oh, hey, like, how are you? It's been so long. Like, yeah, cool. Like, sounds good. All right. I'll see you later. Have a great play. There's something that's so cool about having like genuine fans like that.

Like when people come up to me and talk about the podcast, they're like, I loved your episode with so and so because of this. I'm like, wow, like you actually like, like this podcast is like my baby. as like, you know, your songs are your babies. And it's like, it's cool to like have like receive that love of like, like, and people like actually like knowing, you know, people come up to Taylor all the time and be like, I love the werewolf movie. I'm like, you don't even know what it's called. You're just like trying to take a photo with him.

But it's like the people that have come up to you and are respectful. Yeah. That's when I'm like, cool. I actually want to take a picture with you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, oh, you're so nice and cool and chill about like all of it. Yeah.

It's the ones where I'll be like walking and someone will like scream my name or something. Yeah. Like in a public place. And I'm like, you didn't have to do. I'm very normal. You can literally come up to me and be like, hey, what's up? Yeah. And be like, hey, what's up?

Yeah. Like, nice to meet you. Bye. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I remember there's one time this guy like made like a, a TikTok about how I was like rude to him and a target because he had like screamed at me. from like down the aisle. And I like jump scared because obviously if someone's screaming at me in a public place,

my first reaction isn't going to be like, oh, hi. My initial reaction is going to be like, there's a crazy man screaming at me. Yeah, I'm going to run. I'm going to like, yeah, I'm like in fight or flight mode. For sure. Like, I'm either going to punch you in the face or I'm going to run. Like, that's just what it is. Yeah.

Like if you had just been like, oh, hey, like. fan of your music, that's cool. Like, I'm like, cool, thank you. Like, that's really nice. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's a way.

There's a way. There is a way. There is a way. And I'm very thankful when people understand that way. Yeah. Me too. Very much so. Yeah.

And the ones that, like, see that I'm like with my family or I'm like with my friends. And they're like, you know what? I want to say hi, but like, she's doing her thing. Yeah. Like, I'm like, wow, that's so nice. Yeah. You understand boundaries. We love that for you.

We love boundaries. We love that. Even though we're still trying to figure them out ourselves. Okay, you touched on new music and you actually have some new music out. I do. I do. Called Second Self. What does this project mean to you?

So this is my first, my first project independent, which is so big. Can you explain that a little bit to our listeners that may not like, if it's like a layman's terms for that? So basically I started my own label. So I'm releasing it by myself. I have this incredibly beautiful small team of people that we've put together for this label to help it run smoothly and get it off the ground. But that just means I don't have like the major label support. I don't have the bank. I don't have the DSP.

reach. I don't have the infrastructure that labels would have. So, you know, a song comes out on a major artist on a major label. The song is everywhere because they're putting hundreds of thousands of dollars into the campaign for you to be able to see those songs and hear those songs. We ain't got that. Yeah. Like, dude, we're doing, we are small and mighty and we're just, we're out here doing it, you know? Yeah. Um, that's basically what it means. Um, and, um, and, um, and, And I called it second self for a few reasons. One, being like, this is sort of my second chance. Yeah.

To, you know, sort of bet on myself. Yeah. And two, you know, I was talking about this earlier, but like, you know, when you come out with a song that is like your first song, a lot of the times that is sort of your identifier. Yeah. You know, so like you come out with a song like, issues. And so people kind of expect you to be this vulnerable, raw, emotional person

all the time. Yeah. Like, I'm not allowed to have personality traits. Yeah. Other than those things. And I think when you're signed to a major label and that becomes your identifier, anytime you try to do anything else. Yeah. It's like, no, but you're like the sad girl. Yeah. On the label. You need to be the sad girl on the label. You know? Yeah. And, And then you start to kind of be in your head anytime you write something that's like sexy or flirty or fun or whatever. And you're like, oh, no, but like my fans don't want to hear this. My label definitely doesn't want to hear this.

So I'm just, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm going to just write songs that are like emotional and heartbreaking because that is who I am. Yeah. And, you know, that is a big part of who I am. I am those things. There is no doubt and no doubt from.

anybody that knows me that knows that I am those things. Yeah. But I also am goofy and silly and funny and flirty and, you know, multifaceted in my personality. And I really wanted to be able to encapsulate that and embody that on second self. It's like these, like, yes, that is me, but there's also this me. You know what I mean? Yeah. I feel like it's a cool kind of like foreshadowing with your life too. Like definitely. You know, meeting your fiance and having like obviously like you can just because

you're not dealing with like, you know, you're not breaking up with him or you're not in a toxic relationship doesn't mean like you can't like obviously you can still write about that from lived experience. But totally you having this, you know, you're coming out. You're showing another side of you. Like you're now in this new relationship and you're right like in a healthy one. And like it's just a new, I feel like there's a lot of parallels with this. Definitely. In your personal life and in your music. Yeah.

And I feel like, I feel like this EP is just sort of like giving me permission to sort of like be these things, you know? It's like, yes, I, I know that I am a certain thing. But like, writing a song that's like a fun pop song. Yeah. Doesn't take that away. Like I can also have. like that that I love that are just like fun and flirty and relatable in that sense. You know, like someone wants to go out and have a good time or someone wants to like check

someone out. You know, it's like it's okay for me to have those songs as well as the ones that like rip your heart out. You know what I mean? Yeah. What does it mean to own your music? Oh my gosh. It means everything. I mean, this is the first time that I've had full creative control over everything, you know, down to, you know, the music video. I was never really even given proper budgets not to harp on the major label system. It works amazingly for lots of artists. But, you know, there's sometimes when, like, you want, you have a vision and your budget it doesn't allow for your vision.

And I really love the idea of building a world. When I write songs, I see them visually. I see how they can be funny or campy or emotional, like, in a video. And I never really got to have that realized on a major label. until kind of towards the end. And so for me, that was like a big thing for me. I really wanted to have lots of fun visuals that went along with these songs.

And also when you're like on a major label, they stress like having your face on everything so that everybody just like knows your face. Yeah. And when we put out second self, I was like, I don't want my face on any of the artwork. Yeah. Like, I don't want any of that. So we found this incredible illustration artist that makes these really fantastic, evocative works of art.

And we had her make all of the art for all of the singles. but it's honestly just been incredible, you know, being able to do things the way that I want to and the way that I envisioned and the way that I want it to sound and the way that I want it to feel and it not being contrived by, you know, people being like having conflicting things and then you feel conflicted and you're like, oh my gosh, this is this even, you know, and this was the first time I wasn't stressed about putting songs out because I was like, no, these six songs feel right to me. Yeah. I really love them.

And I need to just like trust my gut. And I never really had the opportunity to trust my gut. That's so good. Yeah. I love this for you. Thank you. I'm like, I'm so excited for you because you were just cute. So talented.

Obviously, you know, I have friends in the music industry. I hear all the crazy things with the labels. and this, that, and the other, and it's just a world I don't even understand and what I hear of it. I barely even understand it. I don't understand how it's like... I've been in it for 15 years and I'm still like, what? Yeah. I'm like, is this illegal? Like, actually?

Like, I would question it and I don't know anything. But when I hear things, I'm like, that doesn't... 100%. The math is a math on that. But I'm... I think any... They're dumb for not letting you, like, have creative freedom with stuff because you clearly just are so talented.

I don't think it was necessarily my laborer. I think that and this is like a whole thing but I really think that a lot of major labels don't trust their artists and the ones that do

those artists thrive the ones that let them have their vision thrive but I think a lot of this is just my theory that a lot of the people that run major labels are still in the era where they just shoved a pop song down an artist's throat. Yeah.

And we're like, you're going to sing this. Yeah. We're going to sign you because we like what you do and what you stand for and your vision. But we're going to shove these songs down your throat. Yeah. And like, there'll be times where, like, an A&R will ask me, like, oh, we just sign this. artists and it'll be like an artist that I've been working with for a while or something. Yeah.

And they're like, what producers do you think this artist should be working with or songwriters? I'm like, why don't you ask her? Yeah. Like, she's been doing this for a while. She knows who she likes. She knows who she has chemistry with. Yeah. She knows that this isn't broken.

These are the songs and this is the reason she got signed. Yeah. Like, why are you trying to ask other people? people an opinion on her art. Like, shouldn't you just ask her, like, who she wants to work with? And I think, I think there's just like this, like, something's disconnect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something's getting lost in, I mean, case you there's something.

100%. That's just my, that's just my theory. Well, I'm, like, so excited for you to have this moment. And I have two final questions for you. Okay. The first one is, what advice would you give your younger self? when you were first turning out in the industry. Nothing.

Nothing. Because I am who I am today because I have gone through so many things in this industry. Like, I can't even, like, the good, the bad, the heartbreak. They're, like, falling in love with people that I'm writing with. They're, like, you know, like, so much. but through all of that I've obviously been able to grow and change and evolve and have perspective and process and you know like who I was when I was 20 is not who I am at 31 like yeah someone was talking to me the other day about a song that I wrote called happy um and the precursor of that song is like um sometimes I think I kill relationships for art I start up all this shit to watch it fall apart I pay my bills with it yeah It's like, whoa, whoa, 23, chill. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, could never be me now. Yeah. I feel like I had to go through all of that. Yeah. To be who I am now. Yeah.

And I feel like a lot of the good things and a lot of the bad things, a lot of the bad things, have made me as adjusted. Yeah. As I am today. I love that. Well, we got some good news. music out of that. Period.

Okay. Last question for you is, you know, you have had so much success in your career and you've accomplished so much. But I'm curious to know either this can be from business or personal life. What are you most proud of yourself for? What am I most proud of myself for? I think like breaking cycles. I don't come from the healthiest family

I don't come from money that's not I like I was on like food stamps and the whole thing like I don't come from anything and I think and like you know breaking cycles of like toxicity breaking patterns of things that I noticed

in myself that I was like wow I really don't like the kind of person I am right now and actively working on those things. Like I'm proud of myself personally more than I am professionally. I'm obviously very grateful to do what I love every day. Yeah. And be able to live off of the thing that I love doing every day. But I'm proud of the people that I keep around me. I'm proud of the fact that I never let it get to me all of this. Yeah. you know um you know i'm just like a normal person i go home and i like i'm in my garden and i just like we live the same life you know like i'm just so normal yeah like um so i'm yeah i'm proud of myself for like doing therapy every week working on myself um finding somebody that

I love that respects me and appreciates me, supports me, going through all of those relationships where that wasn't a thing and me being able to be like, cool, those are things that I'm not going to settle for and I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses anymore and I'm not going to see these red flags as like beige flags, you know? Like I'm not going to just gloss over. It's like, no, now these are things that I just will not.

stand for. Yeah. You know, I'm being proud of myself for that. I feel like there's so many things. Like, I'm so proud of myself for, I don't know, a lot of stuff. Yeah. I love that. This has been, like, so fun.

I'm, like, sad, it's over because I just want to keep talking. You're just, like, the easiest person to talk to you. And I just, like, relate to you so much on so many levels. But thanks for coming. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And hopefully this was a good interview.

I have the... No, literally we just like talked to the whole time. It's lovely. It's so good. I love it. Thank you. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.