The Squeeze - Malika Andrews: Lessons in Healing

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

In this week’s episode, Emmy-winning ESPN sports reporter Malika Andrews opens up about her deeply personal journey with mental health - one that led her to spend over three years away from her family in search of healing. She shares how anxiety, depression, and disordered eating shaped her early years, the first warning signs that something wasn’t right, and what ultimately led her to therapy. Malika reflects on her time at a wilderness camp and an all-girls boarding school, the impact of missing out on her teen years, and whether being sent away helped or made healing harder. She also discusses how horseback riding became a powerful tool in her recovery, offering her a sense of peace and connection when she needed it most. Malika dives into the self-care practices that keep her grounded and why she sees mental health as an ongoing journey rather than a “before and after” story. Finally, she reveals one moment in her life she wishes she could go back to and what she would say to herself.Be sure to follow Malika https://instagram.com/malika_andrews/!To email us your questions or share your story, you can reach out to [e-mail] sure to rate, review, and follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode! Plus, follow us on Instagram:The Squeeze:  https://instagram.com/thesqueeze/Tay Lautner: https://instagram.com/taylautner/Taylor Lautner: https://instagram.com/taylorlautner/& TikTok:  https://tiktok.com/@thesqueezepodcastTo learn more from The Lemons Foundation, follow  https://instagram.com/lemonsbytay/ and visit lemonsbytay.comEpisode Sponsors:Tempo is offering our listeners 60% off your first box when you go to Tempo.com/SQUEEZEHead to JLOBEAUTY.com/SQUEEZE to recieve 20% off and THREE FREE GIFTS - a one hundred and seventy-five dollar value.Tonal is offering our listeners $200 off your Tonal purchase with promo code SqueezeGo to Seed.com/THESQUEEZE and use code 25THESQUEEZE to get 25% off your first month.Let's do wellness on your terms, whatever that looks like and feels like for you. Find us at Walmart or Target near you or at OLLY.comVisit Premierprotein.com and go to Where to Buy to find a retailer near you or to find where to buy online.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

NBA today is hosted by an Emmy winner. ESPN hosts Malika Andrews. I'm Malika Andrews. I'm Malika Andrews. Because you're the first woman ever to host the NBA draft. You won an Emmy and we're the first woman to host the NBA draft that you ever think your career. Because for a long time, I really didn't want to talk about it.

Everything seems to be going right. And yet there is a piece of you that feels so... incredibly off and it's a little bit scary. What do you think it was that it felt like the right moment to start like speaking about it? I didn't feel like I was offering up a holistic view of myself. The question I get the most is how could you not be upset with your parents for sending you to a place like that? There are no showers out there, you have an algae bottle over your head. When I tell you how badly I wanted to be normal, I didn't want to be a petri dish that people were like examining.

And so I didn't talk about it. My parents hired two people to escort me because they were told that for my safety, that would be the best thing to do. I'm really thankful for people like Peres Hilton who have had larger conversations about what regulations need to happen at these sorts of places. No person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done. Malika, welcome to the squeeze. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to be here. We're equally, if not more. It's not possible, but I'm looking forward to squeezing into that space between excitement with my excitement. Okay, so we start each episode off with this jar. It's a game called Sitter Scott Real. You want to pull one of those little pieces of paper out. Okay. And read them.

Drum roll. Drum roll, please. Ooh, guacamole or queso. As a Californian, I think this is probably a really controversial take. Okay. Wow, you're going to say. Koso. I'm going to say Koso. Wow. I love cheese. Okay. I love cheese and I think that here's the thing. Bad Koso is still good. Bad guacamole gets a little funny. Yeah. I hear that. So I'm going to go, I'm going Koso. Do you like Koso? Like just just a cheese Koso or do you like Koso with like the meat in it? Oh, the bits. I will, I don't, I don't discriminate all Koso is good Koso, but the bits in it really, really adds to it. I don't. Remember when I was making Koso for a second?

That was random. I need to bring that back. I mean, yeah, maybe like once or twice, but not a lot. Yeah. I can stay for dinner. You were on a queso cake. I forgot about that. Yeah, but I think it was around like, I don't know, I think I started it around like a Super Bowl time.

Yeah. And then after I made it for Super Bowl. We should make that for Super Bowl. Hey, Super Bowl's coming up. We'll be here. Unfortunately, we will be home now. We will be in our home. I'm sorry.

As will our lions, but I can make my queso. There's a plot. See, look, it's the bright side. It's binding when life gives you lemons, you find queso. There we go. There you go. Life with lemons leads to queso. Yeah, mine's going to be quok.

But I do like queso, but I am lactose intolerant, so I can't have too much queso. Yeah. Yeah. Very free queso probably isn't, doesn't hit the same. That doesn't have the same sort of ring to it, I don't think. I also like love lime, so like a limey quok. Yep. And that helps with the freshness, as we were talking about.

If you want to have a fresh guacamole, a lot of lime. Yeah. Yeah, I'm probably, I'm guac here. I do agree with you that it's, that you can have bad guac, but that casso still is good. Yeah, even the ones that you get in the jar, like, eh, you just kind of forget about the. Do you like, do you like it?

Yeah, I would, I really, yeah, I think I do. I've never, I've never, I've never been asked about Chipotle's case so before, like, put much thought into it. But now that I'm thinking about it, I think if people, if, if, if, if it was put down in front of me, I wouldn't say no. Yeah. How's that? Yeah.

Like I would go for it. Yeah. That's a good answer. I like it. Okay. Well, as we already said, we are super excited to have you for two reasons. One, I mean, both of us, but for me especially, I've looked up to you as, like, a woman in sports. Like, I just think I love sports and I've watched you for a very long time.

So I'm just, like, really excited to, like, get to talk to you and, like, knowing you and watching you for all these years. I'm excited for that. but also because your your story is just I'm I'm super excited to hear more about your story from you and for our listeners to hear because it's it's it's just cool to see where where you've gone through in life and to have you sitting here with us today is really cool I second that when um jumping off of that when Tay asked me if I would want to have Malika Andrews on I was like oh duh but just from what I know about you from the outside. And she was like, yeah, like, have you heard about her mental health journey? And I was like, no. And she filled me in a little bit. Yeah.

And it just kind of reminded me. And I feel like we all need this reminder ever so often that, like, you can't judge a book by its cover. Because, like, for me, from what I know about you, I'm just like, you're just a boss. I'm just like just so freaking smart, intelligent, it has everything going for you. And then she tells me like, you know, what you've gone through and where you've came from to get to this today.

And it just like, I never would have thought that in a million years about you. And it just goes to show like you don't know what people like have gone through. And what like happens to make them the humans that they are today. Well, it's kind of funny that when I was, and we'll talk about it, my boarding school years, sort of the time after trying to sort of find myself being hospitalized, all of these sorts of different things, because that's, you're in it, right? When you're in it, that feels like it's what's going to define you forever.

And then you, hopefully, you're able to continue on to another chapter. And then that chapter starts to be what defines you. And I think that if you can sort of take a little bit more with you along the way and to remind people of sort of all of the pieces of you that leads to this puzzle and this tapestry and this mosaic, I think that that's what I'm trying to do. Because for a long time, I really didn't want to talk about it. Right. And I didn't want to talk about it. It wasn't so much shame as it was I wanted to find other definitions of myself. And that was. such a boarding school Malika, right, was such a prevalent piece of my life for so long that I worried, I didn't know how I was going to find other parts of me. I didn't want to be defined by what I didn't get to be able to do. And for a long time in my head, that was it, right? I didn't go to high school. I went to boarding school. So when people would ask me a totally innocuous question

when everyone's from the Bay Area, oh, where'd you go to school? Yeah. I don't want to like, I don't want to talk about that. I want to redefine what that story is. And so, It's interesting to me to hear you say you came to me through sports because it all felt so, my story felt so muddled for so long that only now does it feel like I can hold all of these different pieces of it. And so that's sort of what I'm trying to do by talking about it a little bit more. Yeah. It's so cool.

So you, you kind of somewhat recently like opened up about it for the first time, right? What was, what do you think it was at that time that it felt like the, the right moment to start, like, speaking about it and being honest? Well, I was always honest with the people that were closest to me. But I felt like at times the hour that I appeared, or on some days it's six hours, but the hour I appeared on television every day was how I was being defined. and it started to nag at me maybe a little bit that I didn't feel like I was offering up a holistic view of myself. And so I think there is some accountability that happens for you in all of that. But also, you know, the people that come up to you and say they enjoy your work or how do

you do what you do. And I wanted to maybe take away some of the perfection sprinkles that kind of go all over this. Because I think that so often when you see people who maybe you're doing what you want to do or have had some success, there's this thought of, well, that just appeared. And I hope that by talking about it a little bit more, particularly, you know, I think that in black and brown communities, mental health isn't something that's talked about as much. I hope that I can be helpful to other people, but also that's something that sort of holds myself accountable as well. So it was a little bit of both of those things, I think. Yeah. Are you happy with your decision to talk about it?

Yeah, I am. I don't think that means that there aren't. I was worried, okay, once something is out there, you can't control where it goes, where it goes, how it's heard. But I love that saying what other people think of me. is none of my business. So there's a little bit of that. And also, it was overwhelmingly hearing from people who found something that resonated with them.

I'm sure. And that was also something that felt good. And it also felt like my story was landing with the people who needed to hear it. And so that also was something that I'm happy with it. And also it doesn't mean you can't decide tomorrow you know what, I know I've talked about this in the past, but today I need to just close that door for now. It doesn't mean forever, but I'm not today.

Like, I need to do this for me today. So I think that having that sort of ownership over it also was something that was really helpful to me. Yeah. Yeah. Other people's opinions are none of my business. Is that what it is? I want to remember that. Yeah, I haven't heard that before.

I love that. Yeah. What other people think of me, that's none of my business. It's so funny. It sounds like left of them. I was just going to say it's Mel Robbins. let them theory. Stop it. If you just told me that I have anything in common with Mel Robbins, literally what she came on here. The year, it's only, it's only January or it's only early in the

year and my year is already made. If you say that. So funny. Oh my gosh. No, that literally is it. You would love her new book then. I'm so excited to read it. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Okay. I feel like we should just dive in and start from the beginning. I was back up. Okay. Yeah. I think we should, I think we should go way back to the beginning. Honestly, maybe just start with before any warning signs or struggles were happening, what was your childhood like? I had the best childhood. I really did.

I have a younger sister, Kendra, who also works at ESPN now. And I remember my dad telling me when I was younger and you have siblings and I remember my dad telling me when I was younger, your sister's going to be your best friend. And when you're in kindergarten, first, second, third, fourth grade, and then when you get in your teenage years, you're like, yeah, right, dad. You don't know what you're talking about. This person in my class, that is my home girl, that is my best friend. He was absolutely right. And it started when we were really little.

We have always been incredibly close. We had wild imaginations. We would go outside in the backyard and just play for hours, just the two of us and our imaginary friends. my dad is a big outdoorsy guy and so he built us a swing in the backyard and we would climb trees and play soccer and I just had my mom is an artist and she would draw us paper dolls and we would color them in and I just had the best and happiest childhood and I think that when I did start to struggle yeah and people would ask me what's wrong or what happened or did someone, I think that every, and understandably and rightfully

so, so many people it starts from a place of a relationship and childhood where something went wrong. But I think that that was what was particularly confusing for me is I have, as I've gotten older, I have the best parents. They're not just like good people. I have really good parents. They're good as, as people for sure. But my parents didn't miss soccer games and they didn't miss the school plays and the drop-offs and the volunteers. And they worked incredibly hard. My dad left the house in the morning before I got up and he was back just in time for dinner every night.

And sometimes we'd have to hold it a couple of minutes around 7, 7.30 to eat all together as a family. But I never recognized how special that was. I never recognized all four of us every night having dinner together. That was something that not everybody had. And so my parents were incredibly close. My sister is still my best friend to this day, even when she steals my clothes and all of that stinky sister stuff. But when I started to become angrier was the term I had then.

I think now there's much more complex words that I can use to describe it. It was really confusing when understandably, therapist. or other people would ask you about, well, like, what's going on at home? And truly at home was the best. And school was pretty great. It was just this fire that kind of started that I didn't know where to put or how to describe. And it made it really confusing, I think, both to people trying to help me and to myself, when everything seems to be going right. And yet there is a people. of you that maybe you don't even have a term for that feels so incredibly off. Yeah.

And it's a little bit scary. Yeah. And so that was for me what it was because, yeah, my child, I had the best, I had the best childhood. I really did. So how did it start to show at its beginning? I got suspended in middle school. Okay.

I don't think I've ever told this story before. It'll stay here. Well, yeah. I think it's sort of, but truly, I'm laughing now, but I think it was, I got suspended in middle school just for a day. Someone called my friend a name at a school dance, and I hit them. And I remember being then called into the office a couple of days later. And, you know, I was, I was in, I was 12. And I had no idea why I was there because it was one of those things where you just like, oh, stop it.

And like I didn't take that as something, but this other person really did. And I remember, you know, I went into the principal's office and it was a whole to-do. And they said, you know, you're going to not come into school tomorrow. And it was that. But then it was more little things. I started to withdraw. And those family dinners, I didn't really talk anymore. And my grades really started slipping.

And I started being dishonest with my parents because I didn't know, I'm a people pleaser and I didn't know, I didn't want them to worry about me. Your teacher called, what's going on in this class or that class? And really it's just that like my brain, I couldn't, I couldn't juggle it all. I couldn't balance it all. And I felt like my emotions were starting to grow outside of my body and I had no place to put them and I didn't know what to do with them. And then that sort of continuously spiraled. And I think that when you're like girls on the front end of all of this and you're changing and everything's changing in your life, you don't really know what to do with all that when you're the first.

when you're the first. And I don't know, but, like, when did anxiety or, you know, those sorts of words, do you like remember when those words came into your life? Yeah, no. Because I wasn't 12. Yeah. Definitely not.

Yeah. And so I didn't have the words for any of those sorts of things, you know? I feel like it's only been in the last couple of years that that's become something that people are comfortable talking about so early. Right. So then it was just confused. Right. just like what is this feeling?

Yeah. It's like, like you were saying, it's like bigger than you. Right. And where do you place it and put it to understand what's going on, especially at, you know,

that age? Exactly. Because there's not really a good answer. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And nothing, it wasn't, you know, again,

I kept being asked what happened. Yeah. And I was so frustrated not to have an answer to what happened. Right. But I think that's probably, true for a lot of people. It's not so much what happened. It's who am I and what are my makeups that I have to contend with, both the good and the things that need to be improved. And for me, that was just part of my makeup. And I didn't know where to put it or what to do with

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so will auto hues under zorgue, go to your reisadvisor or sonikars. When you say someone asking you like is something going on at home, was that in therapy or who was asking you I mean when you're my

parents would ask it was like from every every place looking for the other place So your teachers would ask you what's happening at home. And your parents would ask you what's happening at school. And your friends would ask you, what's going on? And then, of course, it got more formalized way on down the road.

But it's sort of like, it was sort of everyone could tell something was wrong. Yeah. But I didn't have the words for it. And so I started, my parents got my, because my parents, they're the best. they got very worried. Yeah. Yeah. What was, because you, I mean, jumping, this is a jump forward, right?

Yeah. But you end up being gone for a total of three years. But where was the first place you got sent to? And what was kind of that breaking point that happened that your parents were like, we don't know what to do ourselves. We need help. I called my mom at school, actually. I got in a fight with a friend just over you don't seem like yourself and you're not being very nice and what's going on with you.

And I called my mom and I said, I think I might need a little bit of help. How old are you here? I was in eighth grade. So I was like 13 or 14. Okay. I called my mom and I said, I think I need a little bit of help. I had no idea when I was asking for that help what journey that was going to take me on. I just felt like I needed to pause.

And maybe if I could just pause for a little bit and take a breath, then I would figure out how to not feel the way that I was feeling. And so she picked me up and she called my therapist. I was going to, you know, weekly therapy at the time. for an hour. And my therapist said, okay, these are some recommendations. And I ended up going to a hospital in the Bay Area. And what started as a 72-hour psychiatric evaluation ended up being a month-long stay. So I was there for a month. And for, you know, various insurance reasons at the end of a month, it was like you need to either go somewhere else because we, you need to go somewhere

else because we're not helping you the way that you need to be helped. And also, because this isn't what these facilities are meant to do, they're not meant to be long-term solutions for people. So after a month, I was transferred down to Downey, California. I came down here. My parents brought me down to Downy and I was in a eating sort of residential treatment center for three weeks. And I was told there that we're not equipped to help you. And so I was asking for help and my parents were trying to help me. But there isn't just that it wasn't straightforward. And so from there I went to wilderness therapy and I was in wilderness therapy for,

three months. Oh, three months. Yeah, in Utah. And from there, I went to my first boarding school, which was a residential treatment center that was all girls in northern Utah. And I was there for two years, 22 months. And then from there, I went to sort of a step-down program that was co-ed in southern Utah, and I was there for 16 months. So from four, four, you know, 14 to just shy of my 18th birthday. Wow. That was sort of the road that I took.

Yeah. And, you know what's like I'm talking about this and I feel my voice getting all like serious and, you know, now it's just sort of part of my story. Like it's just kind of like that's what, that's how it happened for me. But it's not something that I think about now with this sort of, it's people. well, what do you think would have happened if you did? I have no idea. It's just the, I think it made me, me in a sense. And we can back up and go through any one of those steps a little bit more because I know

it's a lot. But I think that part of it too, when I was, when you asked me at the beginning of this, how do you want to start telling your story? I think it's because people, I started to feel good about telling what happened. And it wasn't just this, this story. it was, well, no, this is just what it was. And when people met that with curiosity and with wonder and also with questions and also with their own vulnerabilities

and also with their own relating to what I was saying, that felt very different than people sitting and being like, oh, poor you. Because I didn't want that. I wanted to be myself first before I was the boarding school girl or the treatment girl or the different girl. I didn't want to be different like that because I've been different my whole life. And so I think that was part of it too now that we're, you know, sending you my therapy bill. You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I'm curious if you're willing to share what were some of those things you were struggling with when you were in the first psych ward at the hospital that they were like, no, we can't.

So with eating disorders, they, once you are medically stable, oftentimes they say the psychological aspect is for elsewhere. You know, these hospitals are meant to help people who are in danger to their self or other people. And once you have sort of cleared that threshold, that's where they start to say, okay, these are places that we can help you go for a lot of. longer journey. And for me, that's what it was. And I also think that, you know, there's a lot of people struggling with a lot of different things there. And so when one coping mechanism is taken away, you start to sort of look at what others could be. And so by the time I was in boarding school, it was certainly food, but it was also self-harm. And I didn't feel less sad. And my dad especially really, really wanted to figure out a place to help me with that.

And for him very differently, but wilderness and the mountain, my dad's a ski patrolman and a rock climber and an outdoorsman. And so he was like, yes, like the wilderness is a place that people heal. Right. Because quite literally, you're stripped of everything except for being able, you know, you show up. and you're in a, you know, this was the 2000 and singles, like 2007, 8, 9. So you show up in your track suit and you're looking around and you are handed a pile of clothes and it's okay, change into these clothes that have the zip off cargo pants and the, you know, athletic long underwear and here's six pairs of underwear to change into and here's three shirts

and here's your crocs and here's your hiking boots and here's your backpack with your food in it and off you go and that's kind of it you're sort of forced to look in at yourself even though I'm not sure I totally was ready. That's what I was going to ask is, did you know what you were getting yourself into, going to this wilderness? I had no idea. I don't think any of my parents didn't know. I didn't know. I had no idea.

Where did it come from? Where did this? My therapist at home combined with the treatment center I was at, this was their recommendation. Okay. Yeah. So what did like daily life look like? at this wilderness camp. That's an interesting question.

I would wake up with the sun because you're outside and there's no blackout shades in the wilderness. And we would hike every day from water source to water source. And in your backpack, it was like a big pack like the size of me. You'd have to sit down on the ground and strap it to your chest and get like pulled up by somebody else when it was full because they were pretty heavy. You would wake up and you would go down. You got a food drop every week that had dried beans, oats, rice, dried cheese,

not good for queso, dried milk, an apple, a tuna packet container. Prize possession was your little Ziplock baggie of brown sugar. and you would make some sort of breakfast over the coals from the night before. You would pack up camp. You would put sand over the fire. You would strap your pack on. And you would hike anywhere from two to nine miles to the next water source. You would hike with there are six to eight other girls out there, two or three staff members.

you would hike to the next water or the next water camp site. The staff had sort of mapped out where you were going next and had walkie-talkies in communication back with the folks who were at base out of the staff who was at base out of the desert. You would hike there. You would see and survey the place that you were going to set up. And when I say campsite, I mean area with less bramble. It wasn't a, you know, like where you would pull.

up an RV too. This was exactly. Not glamping. Not glamping. You would find flat ground. You would take rope that was in your pack and hang up rope from like one tree to another was ideal. And you would take other rope and put a tarp over that as an a frame tent, a makeshap a frame tent.

And you would put that down with rocks on all four corners. And you would set up your mat and your sleeping bag. I was really good at making coals. And so that's the, we would work with a bow and spindle and top rock to create downward pressure to create coals for fire with another person. And we'd set up our fire with that. And then you would make dinner and you would do it over again the next day.

There was a therapist who would come out once a week. We all had journals, a lot of journaling, a lot of reading like, Man Search for Meeting in that sort of book. And that was pretty typical. I know, you know, a lot of people have had a lot of different experiences with wilderness therapy, some really horrific and some a little bit more like me that was just sort of a stop along the way, some helpful, some things that in hindsight are a little bit adult to ask a 14-year-old to do.

So I certainly respect that a lot of people have had a lot of different walks through this sorts of therapy. And I'm really thankful for people like Paris Hilton who have had larger conversations about what regulations need to happen at these sorts of places. But for me, it was sort of a three-month break. You're hiking through snow. You're hiking through rain. You're in the desert in Utah. I got letters once a week from my family. I got to write letters back.

So it was a very, very much a reflective thing. It's just, it's so, it feels so far away from where I am now. But yeah, that's what, that's what it looked like. A lot of the time you earned beads for doing things, reading a book. You earned a black bead, earning a, yeah. So it was, yeah, that's what it was like. So you can. find, because I was curious about that, but it sounds like that this is the case, looking back

at that, you can definitely find positives that you took away from that experience. Yeah, I, you know, it was, it was 15 years ago. And I think with time comes a lot of healing. The question I get the most is how could you not be upset with your parents for sending you to a place like that? Right. Because my parents were doing the best that they could with the information that they had. And because ultimately all of this was building blocks to who I am, I can't fault or be upset with that. And I also have plenty of empathy and want to hear other people's experiences because that's the way that these sorts of things will be a force only for good. So I think we need to continue to talk about these sorts of things. But for me, that was what the experience is like.

And, you know, one day I got a letter for my parents saying, you're going to leave and you're going to this boarding school. And we're going to come pick you up. There are no showers out there. You have a Naljean bottle over your head. Like for three months, that was the, so there's definitely, it was definitely a, it was not what other four. 14 year old girls were doing at that point. For sure. Which is why when people said, well, what was, you know, prom?

Like, no idea didn't go. Right. Never had one. Yeah. 14. Did you have, because I know we've watched like some documentaries and people talk about like being like taken like from their homes like to the, did you have that?

My parents hired two people to escort me. because they were told that for my safety, that would be the best thing to do. I was told that these folks were coming. So it wasn't the same experience as, I think, a lot of the experiences that my peers have had. Yeah. Wow.

This is my brain just going out of curiosity. Do you know why would be safer for people to transport you rather than your family? you know, everyone's more likely to push back on their parents. Yeah, I guess so. And I also think that my parents had a really hard time sending me away. And so if your child asks you, you know, I know I asked for help, but I don't want to go anymore. They were going with the best information they had.

And the experts were saying, you know what, this is the process here. And so they said, okay, we're going to go with that process. Yeah. And so they did. Throughout your time there, did you feel like you were improving at all? Or did you just kind of feel the same? Can I answer that by saying my mind felt quieter, I think? For whatever.

And again, like, it's hard to, I'm doing my best to, I kept really good diaries back then. And I have them. They're all in my closet. My mom, like, shipped me a box at some point of, and I kept really, really good at, you know, notes and diaries. but I haven't gone back through all of them. I think I will at some point. I also smell like campfire and not like good.

But, you know, I think I'm definitely giving you guys the time has healed all wounds version just because, you know, I'm sitting here getting to do everything that I do. And, you know, my road through all of this maybe doesn't look the same as a lot of folks. You know, I cover the MBA now. But there's a lot of people in the sport that have all sorts of stories of overcoming. And mine is definitely my own version. And we can have all sorts of conversations about the expense and access to these sorts of therapies and needing to be able to find a way.

for people who have less resources to get help because it's a really, really important conversation to have. And whenever I talk to guys who have had a different experience, but there are similarities, it's something that we kind of find as a way to kind of come together and have conversations about our upbringing. So I don't even remember what your question was, but I hope I answered. I love to answer. When was the last time that you had an aha, moment in your life about your health. The last time I had this and probably the biggest aha moment for me for my health yet has been when I incorporated Seeds DS01 into my routine. And I've been taking it for almost like four straight years now. And it truly has changed my life. Seeds DS01 is a

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No, I was going to ask what, so would it be normal for after the wilderness camp to go to boarding school or, okay, okay. It was, I think, one girl that I went to wilderness with that I recall, maybe two. And I was there, like, I went from being the new B to I'd been there the longest amount of time. And not everyone had that experience, right? Some people always were somewhere in the middle. I only saw one or two people go directly home from wilderness because it's, it's, um, going from that. showing up to like high school the next day, I couldn't imagine.

Yeah. I couldn't imagine. Yeah. Now that makes sense. Yeah. It was sort of an in-between program. And you were, when your parents said you were going to go to boarding school, you were just like.

I was excited to get out of wilderness. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. I was excited to get out of wilderness. And I was curious what was next, you know. And they told me that there were going to be horses there. And I have always been.

an equestrian, it is my lifelong love. And I was really excited for that part too. So you go to boarding school. You're there from 14 to 16-ish? Yeah, I think 14 to 16 and then 16 close to 18 for my second boarding school. Okay. At this boarding school, this was the all-girls one. Yeah.

Right? I think I read that they had these things where it was like positive and negatives. Like Hogwarts. That was in the doc that we watched too. It was like you get rewarded points that get you like. I think we saw the same documentary. Okay. I know.

I'm forgetting what it was on. Yeah. I remember. I don't remember the name of it. We watched that documentary. Different but also a point system. Right. that can allow you to call home more.

So we didn't have that. So we didn't, we, there wasn't, again, there are so many, there's a breadth of experiences in these types of boarding schools. And I am so in awe of the people who have come forward to talk about those sorts of things, losing those sorts of privileges, because that would be. awful. In my boarding school, you could earn positive points for cleaning your room and for helping somebody out and for doing your chore and a whole myriad of things you can earn positive points for. You could earn negative points for on the flip side if you clash or left your sock out.

Even if it wasn't intentional, there were things that you could earn negative points for for, your room comes to get checked and we understand you tried but this big brown spot in the middle of the floor should have been cleaned up therefore yeah um so you could lose privileges which were socializing with other girls wearing makeup eating dessert um all of your extra time on days you didn't have privileges would be spent trying to make up your privileges for the next day or the next week Family calls with parents were not something that you could lose. Okay. You could lose like a friend call once you'd gotten up to earning that,

but family calls weren't something that they took away. That didn't mean at times there were systems that were a little bit baffling. But it was, you know, you would earn negative points if you failed to test, like those sorts of things. by the way like the school aspect of it I went to school you know you know some houses have a separate garage the separate garage had been converted into a schoolhouse and so that's where I went to school and I would sit next to you know if I'm in ninth grade at this point I would do my individualized schooling but the person to my left might be in sixth grade and the person to my right might be in 12th grade and so you would do your individualized schooling which is another reason I think you know a similar back to what's college going to look like or a normal high school. I put that in air quotes was a little bit interesting. Yeah. It's so, I mean, I just, I grew up so normal in public school.

So like trying to like, but like to me, that's not normal. Like, yeah. It's not, it's not normal, but I, when I tell you how badly I wanted to be normal and how much I worried about, we've been talking for, I don't know how long. and I've like skimmed the surface of what all this looked like. I didn't want to be a petri dish that people were like examining. And so I didn't talk about it because I just wanted to be me and I just wanted to be 17 and I just wanted to be, you know, all of these different things.

But, you know, when you start unraveling a little bit, it's, it's different. It's different than what most people go to. But to me, like going to, I want to hear all of like, what was your prom like? And when did you get a car? And because all of that was different for me. Oh, yeah, a driver's license. Yeah, I didn't get a driver's license until I was 18. Yeah.

Yeah. Take. Okay. No. Oh. Well, I was just going to ask about Dante. What was, so was that? Do you want to tell?

Dante is a horse, F-Y-I. He's a horse. Dante is a horse that my mother at some point put in an email, D-O-N-T-E. and so D-O-N-T-E and D-O-N-T-E and D-O-N-T-E and I've never, like any article, anything has always said D-A-N-T-E because that's how you actually spell Dante, but he was D-O-N-T-E. Oh, funny. And that's what made him my computer password for many, many years. Not anymore, but that O threw people off. Anyways, Dante, the horse, of course. Was that in your, the final boarding school?

So my final boarding school in this long and winding chapter was in southern Utah. And at that school, you could earn a lot more privileges than at any of my previous boarding schools. The other boarding schools, they were locked down facilities still. They were, everything was as a group. There were very specific off-campus activities that you could do, but never by yourself. When I was at my final stop, my final school, you could earn having a cell phone, which, by the way, wild. Because the amount that I went from, I left and it was like typing out Razor. Yeah.

And I came back in their iPhones. Oh, wow. Whoa. What is this? I never, yeah. I had no, I had no idea. Like touch screen. I know.

Touchscreen was crazy to me. social media. I had no, my little sister is like, yeah, there's this thing called Instagram. You should, you know, be on it. And so yeah, my last boarding school, you could earn off-campus activities. And one of the activities that I was really focused

on earning was being able to horseback ride. And there was a woman who taught horseback riding lessons at a barn close by. And she used three horses that a family owned. And one of them was this horse name, Dante. And Dante was a little bit of a devil. He had a little bit of a mean streak in him. He was a little sassy. He was a little bit difficult. And I started riding him when I was there. And then I left. And I went home after in August, August before I turned 18. So this was August of 2011, maybe. Yeah, August of

2011 and 2011, 2012, somewhere in there. And a couple of months after, I decided to take a gap year because I graduated high school early, because I went to year-round school just doing that independent study. I decided to take a gap year to let my grade catch up because again, I was tired of being, I didn't want to be the young different girl anymore. I wanted to be with my peers. So I came home. I worked for a year and lived. lived with my parents and got to see my sister, you know, in high school. And I got a call from this woman who I rode with. And she said, hey, Dante's owners are moving. And they just don't have the space or the time to put into this horse. Would you want him? Wow. And, you know,

it's, he'll be a thousand dollars, which was all the money I had in my bank account. And, you have to pay for his transport from Utah to California. And so I bought him and transported him back and found a place to stable him. And it was pretty awesome because that became my life for that year. All of my friends, you grow up so much between 12 and 17. It's so rare to have lifelong friendships like that. especially when you go cold turkey and kind of disappear because it wasn't like I told my friends I was leaving. I just left and I never came back. And so I don't have a lot of friends after coming back from that experience.

And I was able to make friends at the barn through Dante. And that was how I found my people and a social life. And girls my age that I could be friends with that all that mattered was our commonality. in horses and not all of where'd you go to high school and all of these other things and so I made two really good girlfriends and I brought Dante back to California with me and for that year that was my that was my whole social life that helped me kind of rebuild a social life was was Dante wow yeah we have some friends that have done like horse therapy yeah and they just absolutely swear like but it's I think horses are magical. I think, I mean, they're, they're empathetic creatures who can sense what you're feeling

and they're super, super sensitive and I never thought I was going to have another horse. I sold Dante. Actually, I gave Dante away when I was a sophomore in college because I was working all the time to try to afford him and I just couldn't anymore. And my parents had always said, if you're getting a horse, that is your deal. We can't, you know, my wonderful teacher and my wonderful trainer dad were not in that sort of position. And so they wanted to support me, but they couldn't support me in that way. And so I was working all the time, and I just, I didn't have any time to ride him. And so, uh, Dante, he's still, he's still alive. He's retired now. He's in his late 20s. And I get pictures from his new owner every once in a while

of him, just like fat and happy and chilling in a backyard. I didn't think I would get another horse. And I just recently got another horse. Yeah. And he looks scary like Dante, actually. Oh, wow. But yeah, that was a recent thing. Charlie. Okay. Because my, Dave thought it would be funny to have a horse named Charlie Horse like a cramp.

Funny. And he also, like, is a little mouthy. And so, Charlie, you bit my finger. Oh, my gosh. That's a perfect name for you. So, yeah, he's Charlie. Charlie the horse. That's great.

Oh, my gosh. So that definitely helped having Dante at this table is definitely. like helped integrate you back. Oh yeah. It was I mean I was I was I was working and going to the barn every day and it gave me a responsibility and a purpose and a reason and it was and friendships like I really can't stress enough friends are everything when you're a teenager they really are and maybe that's where it comes full circle of like my sister really is my best friend because you know, you lose friends and people, you know, have their lives that are right in front of them and it's easy to feel like, you know, people moved on and the world moved on without you.

And he was a very centering, grounding part of my life. I don't know, do you have hobbies like that? I need to get a hobby like that. We talk about this all the time. I feel like I'm in like one of those weird places where who is I, I was just listening to someone talk about this. Like I don't, I don't know what hobbies I have like other than like organizing and cleaning things.

Like what are my hobbies? Like what's my favorite? Like I feel like I'm not, I'm not forgetting who I am. But like those basic things. I'm like, I don't, I need a hobby.

Like what is my hobby? We're going to get back into pickleball again. Yeah. I can get back into pickleball. I know. That's a good one. It was. you know for me with horses it was that um i told myself this story that i didn't have time because

it's a it's a commitment you have to go out there and you ride for an hour and you should take a shower after otherwise you're going to smell like barns you can't just like zip off to the next thing yeah and so i told myself this story for years with my job which i love but i feel and I feel that you need to put into it in order to do it at the level that basketball fans that players deserve. And so I told myself the story that I didn't have time for horses or a hobby for years. And a couple of years, two years ago, almost three, no two years ago, my husband got me horseback riding lessons as a gift for the holidays. And he said, here's, you know, three lessons. Just like get back into it and see what you can find.

And what I found is that I had two hours a day that I was just 10 minutes of not paying attention here and 30 minutes of meandering there and 20 minutes of lolly gagging over here. All of a sudden you put all of that together and you have time for this really beautiful, rewarding hobby. And I started slowly. I started with lessons. And then I leased a horse. And then just recently I got a horse. And he plays pickup basketball. That's his thing.

A hobby where you can't look at your phone. A hobby that's all consuming of your mind and your body is a really, I think it's a necessary thing, particularly in the world we live in today. I think that finding whatever your thing is, whatever your jam is, if it's pick a ball, like just try it. Yeah. Just try it again. You do have to do a better job finding something like that. Yeah.

No, I think that's such a good reminder because I'm so like all the time. Like, I'm just always thinking of things I could be doing or work and I'm like, I don't, like, I don't have the time to do that. But you do. Yeah. And I think as women in particular, I mean, how many times, which well in terms, which well-inted, tensioned question are we asked about our balance, our work life balance. And I think that everybody is asked about it, but I think women in particular, it comes up in a different way. And I think the sooner or louder maybe we can be honest that there is no balance. Balance doesn't

exist. Lately, I'm trying to reframe it as what's my work life recipe? Because the recipe is going to be different every day. It's going to be a dash of horseback riding, a hefty load of studio time and basketball games, a sprinkle of movie night with the husband, a little additive here of some exercise. And that's the recipe for today. But tomorrow the recipe is going to be all work. And the next day, the recipe is going to be all bar, whatever that is. I think that the sooner that we can stop putting the pressure on ourselves to, when is the last time everything was in perfect synchronicity? It doesn't happen. It's just a recipe. It's never going to be balanced. And I think when we can remove that pressure, we're going to be in a better place. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a cool outlook. That's so good. I love that. So sitting here today, I'm curious two things. One, I guess this kind of goes back, but when you left, you know, when you finally finished boarding school, you came back. Did you feel equipped with tools to assimilate back into everyday life? And then I guess the fast forward is, what are those tools and mental health outlook look like for you now? Yeah. Yes. I know that was not very convincing.

I'm going to move my very loud of pants. The short answer is yes. I do think I came out with tools that I didn't go into. into boarding school having. Even something as simple as, this is so silly, but practicing feedback and an empathy statement is something that I've learned in boarding school.

So being able to communicate when I don't think something is going well, right? Instead of just saying, I really don't like the way you did that. It's, Tay, I understand that you took a lot of time in crafting that question, and you put a lot of work into it, and I really appreciate the time that you took. However, to me, it feels like the way that we should talk about coping mechanisms, it's okay to talk about them as changing over time.

And I really understand that, you know, so I think that there's a lot of, like, very concrete tools that I learned. I also am really grateful that therapy became something that is normal for me and that I've been able to go back to at different points in my life, including now. And I think that when you leave a controlled environment like that, there's new and different things that come up. And I want to be really clear, I love my life. I'm happier now than I have been in a very long time. I have the most supportive partner. I have the best colleagues. I have a get-to job, not a have-to job. I am afforded the privilege of going out and riding. horses in the hills and I can call both of my parents, which is something that so many people

aren't able to do. And some days I still struggle. And so while I feel like I have the tools and I have the ability and I can put one foot in front of the other more days than I don't, I think it's okay to say like in three or four, I might have, you know what I mean? Yeah. I just don't feel like this isn't an after school special. And I, I, I, I, I, I, I, want to be able to hopefully help someone who feels that they've gone. Because the thing that I told myself, I struggled again my sophomore year of high or college. I got out of boarding school, got into college, went to college, started to struggle a little bit my sophomore year. And the thing that I told myself is, you can't, gosh, you can't be doing this again. We've already, we've already

put in the work. We've already got there. We're already good. And, you know, you're doing this again and not be so hard on yourself if there is an again, if there is a new finding of something new that you need to work on because I was so petrified that needing to work on something meant I was going to have to go away again. And that was not the case. It just looked a little bit different. So it wasn't like leave boarding school, like shut the door, fresh print style and then like you're done. It was it was like, a little messy because this is a, I've said before, depression, anxiety, sadness, it's a shape-shifting monster that can show up in all different ways and you just have to

be open to and honest with yourself when it does. and other people that are in your circle. And I think that that's how you move forward kind of together. Yeah. I love that outlook of yours. And I saw you talk about that and refer to it as that. That like it's not like a before and after. Like this is, that's the old me.

This is the new me thing. It's not that black and white. Like it's, you know, some days I can be like this. But then it can hit me a different way tomorrow. Right. Yeah. And, you know, it's a constant evolving thing. That's being human.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That you're probably for the rest of your life going to have to continue to figure out. I was reading a book recently. Really, really good book. The Sun Does Shine by Anthony Ray Hinton.

He was a completely innocent inmate on death row for 30 years. Just insane, crazy, maddening story. his autobiography and just insane but his attorney was a man named Brian Stevenson

there's a movie a book Just Mercy on Brian and Brian has this quote no person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done

and I really whatever that thing is I really truly believe that I do not believe that any person is the worst thing they've ever done, the darkest time in their life. Everybody deserves the opportunity to say, I'm sorry, whether it is to yourself or someone else, say I'm not okay.

I need help. And would you please assist me in moving forward? Everybody deserves that opportunity. And then once you get that light, you get to be it for other people. And that is the biggest and greatest and I think most, important gift that I get to have because I just happen to have this platform. There's like a million people who have this journey. I and we in a lot of ways like mental health struggles aren't special. People are remarkable. What people overcome and do is over is remarkable. But I think finding that

commonality, like I hope there's someone listening right now who's like, yeah, I've been through all that and I'm doing all this or I've empathized with this part of that part. because I'm very nervous by the way like doing this whole like talk still like talking about it now like I'm definitely sweating um but I I just think that that that vulnerability and honesty is the best I got and the best that we can all do you know yeah yeah yeah I mean I think we're so thankful for people like you that share your story because I mean you're the your story is one of the first like we haven't had someone with your story I mean we've never heard you know people have some similar stories but we've never had someone like you like your story on our

podcast so I'm thankful for you for sharing your story and for opening up and I just love the whole shape-shifting thing and um I've recently had to like learn because you know anxiety depression and all of these things feeling numb like I went through it I struggled with PTSD really bad went to therapy got through it and I got better and then when those little things things start to creep in. I remember the first time I couldn't get out of bed one day. I was like, oh, like I started panicking. Like, oh my gosh, is this like really going to come back again? Yeah. And I've had to learn and I continually remind myself, it is going to happen again, but I'm equipped now and I know the tools that I could use to help me get through it better.

And that's kind of the way we have to look at it. Like, it's not going away. Life is going to life and we got to just get through it. It's going to life is lifeing. But knowing, hey, I actually got through it. I survived and I got through this and I learned how to get through it and just knowing that that's okay and it's going to come up and when it does like I have those tools and I'm equipped to get through it. Totally. And by the way, when you're having those days and you know deep down, I have the tools to do it. I am worthy. I deserve to be bullish in my belief in myself. It's okay to put those tools off an hour. You know what I mean? Like I think that we're all so condition to spring into action, which is good and important and keeps us from the scariest

parts of our own minds. But if you need that hour in bed, that's all right. You don't have to immediately jump to what's wrong, nothing, let me fix it. It's okay to sit in what's wrong for a little bit. Because when you know what's wrong and when you feel that, you have a greater appreciation for the right and the good. Yeah. Because sometimes sometimes we all just need a little, a little hour of that pity party. Yeah.

It's okay to have that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as soon as you stop feeling, that's when you become numb. Yeah. And as soon as you, you know, start viewing it and treating it as a what's wrong with me. That's like when you, that's the numbness and that's the, you know, probably the dissociating and everything.

How would you treat your best friend? Right? Like we are so much kinder oftentimes to strangers than we are to ourselves. If your best friend called you and said, I'm in bed and I really just am not feeling good and I don't know what to do. Take your time. Call me back if you need me. I'll be over in a couple of hours to check on you. But it's that couple of, you know what I mean?

How would you treat somebody else? Because oftentimes we have so much more patience for other people than we do for ourselves. At least I feel like I do. That's so good because that's so true. Because if your best friend called you and said that, your response wouldn't be, well, use your tools. Right. Get out of bed. What are your tools?

Get to those tools. You say, it's okay. You're allowed to feel that way. Yeah. You know, cry. Like, it's important. you'll get through this, but you won't say that to yourself immediately. No, I said this to someone the other day.

I'm trying to remember who. You know that phrase, treat others the way you want to be treated? Sometimes you have to treat yourself the way that you would treat others. Oh, my gosh. Because we're so conditioned to be the hardest on ourselves. It's okay to forgive yourself. It's okay to hear this, Malika. it's okay to show up imperfectly.

You still showed up. Yeah. You're challenging Mel Robbins for some wisdom right now. I'm sitting up a little straighter. Mel, watch out. Oh, I get the glasses next. Is that the next level? I'm really excited.

Oh, man. The glasses. That's so good. Do you have anything else you want to touch on? No, I mean, no, I just, yeah, I think you sharing your story is so cool. and I can certainly relate to it because I for so many years, you know, especially the height of when I was in the spotlight, I just, I thought that I had to be perfect. Yeah. And anything that was, you know, I viewed as wrong or whatever in my life, I did not want anybody to know about that.

And only, you know, recently in the last few years did I feel like it was okay to start talking about that. those things. And I know it's, you know, somewhat of a new thing for you to be openly talking about it. And I can relate to it, like, making you feel like sweaty and like it's, it's tough. It's just, you know. You're going to start giving out like, well, like, dove deodorants or something as people walk out of here. That's got to be so, you were known and people would come up to you, I'm sure, and not even know your name, but know you as a character that you play. Yeah. I feel like that has to be such a, that has to be such a different experience, like what's projected on to you.

Yeah. And not even getting the space to like be yourself. You kind of become a character, I imagine. Yeah, I. It's bizarre. It's bizarre for sure. Yeah. That's, I can't, I can't imagine.

Yeah. Maybe that's where like the needing to, you know, be perfect is coming from because people don't view you as a human. They view you as this like character that they love. And you're like, well, I want to live up to that. I don't want to disappoint them. They already are surprised that I'm shorter in person. Like, you know.

People are surprised I'm taller in person. See? Right. We all got it. No, it's, yeah, I don't. I think that's part of it. I think that I decide. at some point, probably when I joined my school paper in college.

I think I made the decision. I was, my story was, I don't even want to like my story, my story, my story, it's just me. It's not even, you know, I think I say my story, it's, it's, it's just, it's just me. It's just my walk through life. But my walk was so, wow, that's exceptionally different that I want to, wanted to channel that into something that I felt like could be accepted, as opposed to being like this anomaly for that walk. I sort of poured everything into the work that I do. And I fell in love so quick. I was always a writer. Diaries and all of these different things. But

that's what made me, I always loved sports. I always loved exercise. But people, stories and knowing my story, here I go again with the story. But, but like knowing that's where I wanted to be able to do people justice in the way that their story entered the world. And, you know, I'm human. It's all sort of everything. But I think that that's part of where it came from for me is wanting to be able to I have everyone has a story I want to be someone that helps people tell theirs and that sort of gave me this drive because after Dante the next thing I poured into was this this work and I think that that's probably a lot of where it came from yeah um was that well you're pretty dang good at it I'm actually my my last question is um I'm curious because just being

just like, you know, as somebody who watches you and is a fan of you, you, I find it so crazy that you just turn 30 years old. And you are what feels like, like you're, you're the pinnacle. Like you are, you are just like crush it so much. How do you like, I don't know, not how do you keep yourself hungry, but like, what's your, what's your goal to like, where do you go from here. I have had many. You know what's funny is that every time I went from school, the University of Portland to the New York Times, and I told myself how, again, worried about, I care entirely too much what other people think of me. And I worried about, you know, once they told me that I was there as an intern, I stayed on for an extended amount of time,

and once they told me that I wouldn't be staying, I worried one, what would people think? And two, this is all I've ever wanted was to work at the New York Times, the paper of record. How can I do better than that? How can I find more credibility and better reporting and better writers than the paper of record? And I went to the Chicago Tribune from there

and found one of the best basketball beatwriters in the country. And I worked with him. and I found that there. And then once I left newspapers, I worried, again, going back to my insecurities, working in television and all of this different stuff, now that my words aren't walking in before I do, is that something that I'm going to be okay with and how will I be judged? And then I ended up at ESPN and I became, you know, you see the like youngest sideline

reporter to ever host the NBA finals and the first woman in like the 80 year history of the draft to host the NBA draft. And what I've found is I'm a planner. I am, I sit down and I write out my goals for 2025 and I'm very intentional with my time and what I am moving towards and what I hope for and what's within my control and what's not. But I think once I'm, I started just to worry a little bit less about how, about perception and just focus in on, well, what's a good story? How do I make people laugh? How do I leave people with the emotion that I felt when I first heard from this person or that person?

And stopped maybe putting so much pressure on what's the next thing. it all started to work. I think that once you, you know, the game respects game, you put into it what you get out of it. And trusting hard work, I think is something that I am not conditioned to do. I don't think that a lot of women are conditioned

to feel like I put in the work and therefore I've earned it and good will happen. I'm trying to trust that. just a little bit more because truly I've never been more at peace than I am right now and I think that part of that's my very ripe age but I think most of that is just trusting that process of putting sort of one foot in front of the other I still have my goals on my piece of paper, but I think you need to allow yourself the freedom to dance and not just to rigidly march toward them. Yeah. I need to hear that part too. I have goals. I have like goals on my

list that I didn't like hit last year and part of me was like. Like what? Oh, they're going to sound so silly. No, no. There's no no. No, they're just like big absurd like things. And I was a little bummed that a couple of them didn't happen. And Taylor was like, why? Like, you accomplished so much this year. Like, don't get stuck on like that one. Like she knew when writing them down. Yeah.

She knew I'm going to write down like the little things. I'm going to write down ones that, you know, we'll take some work that I can definitely achieve. And then I'm going to dream. I'm going to put, you know, some stuff down here that it's shooting for the stars. Absolutely. I'm going to put it on there. When she was writing the list, she knew that.

But then when the. years over and a couple of those, even though she hit 95% of them, you know, there was two. But isn't that funny how we focus on what we didn't do versus all the things that we did achieve or accomplish? And you have to be hungry. Like that's what makes, ambition is good. Ambition is fuel. But you can be ambitious and kind to yourself. Yeah. That's why you marry someone that reminds you of your accomplishments because when I feel that Taylor is like, no, you did this, you did that. Oh, I forgot I did that. Yeah. It's like this, this, this. Like this. Highman. Look at the list. That is a height man. You literally hit. You also, you have to check off the things that you did on the list. Yeah. And

sometimes you put things on the list that you're like, I know I'm going to get these. Just like to give yourself a little starter. Yeah. I, when I make a to do list, sometimes I put things on that I'm like, just finished though. Literally, even if I already did them and I'm making the list after, like, if I do my whole little more. I do my whole little more. I. I'm, routine and I'll wash the dishes do this. I'll also add it to my list just to like check it off. I got to feel the little motivation. Yeah, because it's a building block. It makes you go to the next thing on the list. Check it off, check it off.

Boom, boom, boom. Yeah. I love a list. Okay, last question and then we'll let you go. I'm curious. If you could go back to one moment in your life, what moment would that be and what would you say to yourself? That's a very good question.

There was a time in which I, I would have told you that I wanted to go back to the day I called my mom and asked for help so that I could have had a normal childhood. And there was a time in which I would have told you, I want to go back to this time that I was unkind to someone else in my industry and felt like I made things more difficult as opposed to easier. or the time I like threw something at my mom, which sorry mom, I definitely regret that. But and maybe it's just because I have more peace than I've ever had, I don't think I would go back to any of them. Because I don't think that you can enjoy mountaintops when you haven't dug out of valleys. and I've dug out of a lot of valleys. I'm going to create a lot more.

And I think that being okay with making those mistakes, some of them are mistakes, some of them are oopsies, some of them are I could do better next times. I wouldn't be who I am without both. Some of the best lessons I've learned the hard way. I've become a kinder, more generous, better listening, better friend, better colleague, better reporter because of the times that I've tripped and because of the people that have caught me so that I'm better equipped to catch other people and to catch myself. So I'm running through a laundry list of oopsies right now and there's some like, I don't, I don't.

I, there's a lot of I'm sorry as I wish I got too quicker. Yeah. But I don't know that I would fully take those back. Yeah. Getting to know you over the last hour as soon as you asked that question. Yeah. I knew that was exactly what you were going to say. Yeah.

And it just, yeah, it makes a, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think it's an important reminder to all of us. And yeah, no, I just thank you for sharing your story. and it's an honor to be sitting here with you today. Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys making the time and having me. And now we can have KSA.

KSO and game nights.