The Startup Ideas Podcast - Buying the X Games with Olympic Icon Apolo Ohno

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

In a Web3 universe, anything is possible. In this episode of Where It Happens, hosts Sahil Bloom (@sahilbloom) and Greg Isenberg (@gregisenberg) put that belief to the test with an idea so big that they had to run it by someone legendary. They pitch Olympic icon Apolo Ohno (@ApoloOhno) on their idea to buy the X Games and how to take it to the next level. Other topics include reimagining the Olympics, Apolo's idea for an NFT Museum, and why it's important to escape your mental prison.Want more community? Learn more here: http://trwih.comSPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORSEIGHT SLEEPhttps://www.eightsleep.com/whereithappensThere’s still time to get an incredible gift for yourself or a loved one this holiday season. One of our favorite products of this entire year is the Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover. We’ve both prioritized good sleep and haven’t found a better product on the market. The Pod Pro by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. With the Pod Pro Cover, you start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so you can have a completely different temperature than your partner.The result: Eight Sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by 40%, and get overall more restful sleep.As a subscriber, go to eightsleep.com/whereithappens to get up to $250 off. This deal will only be available for 2 weeks, so give the gift of better sleep today.FOUR SIGMATIChttps://us.foursigmatic.com/roomWe do a lot of drinking on the show, and we need to balance it out with something a little healthier. That’s why we can’t get enough of Four Sigmatic. Our go tos are their Hot Cacao Mix with Reishi Mushroom and Sweet Vanilla Plant-Based Protein. The Hot Cacao is packed with 500mg of Reishi to help you relax before bed. And the plant-based protein is filled with 18g of protein per serving as well as 7 different functional mushrooms and adaptogens, making it the perfect post-workout recovery drink.They’re delicious and we can’t recommend them enough for your daily routine. And by the way, they’re a great holiday gift!As a subscriber to this newsletter, you can receive 15% off your order. Head to https://us.foursigmatic.com/room and enter the code “TheRoom” at checkout.

The world's strongest prison is right between your two years. Ooh. Guys, we just finished an awesome conversation with a personal hero of mine, Apollo Ono. Greg, what'd you have on it? Usually we talk about startup trends, where the world's going, startup ideas. This hit absolutely different. We talked about life lessons. We talked about happiness.

We talked about so much that I think doesn't get talked enough about. Totally true We also talked about A personal passion project of mine We are going to buy the X games So wag BXG You're gonna love it Let's just dive right in

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You know how much I've been talking about that hot cocoa, the one that's jam-packed with the rishi mushrooms. It absolutely has been transforming my mornings. I have it at night. Completely chills me out, takes out all my stress, and allows me to have a good night's rest. After those long days of tequila on the set, I'm sure that's helpful. I mean, it does help. The sweet vanilla plant-based protein is the one that I've been going to.

After my workouts in the mornings, it's been a game-changer. 18 grams of plant-based protein, adaptogens, jam-packed with mushroom goodness. It's been a complete game changer for me. So to go check it out, go to 4Sigmatic.com and use code the room at checkout. What's going on, man? Not much. There's a bunch of shit I want to talk about today, so I kind of just want to dive right into it.

But I saw this really cool thing the other day. I think it was the Wall Street Journal. There was this article about chess. And ever since Queen's Gambit on Netflix, I've been sort of into chess. And it was this article about Magnus Carlson, who's like the most legendary, I think now considered the most legendary chess player of all time.

And it's about his new nemesis. who like right now, I think as we speak, they're playing in Dubai and the like World Chess Championship. It's like a best of 13 or something series and they keep facing off. And the cool thing about the story and like the human interest side of it was that this guy, Ian Nepo something, it's a very complicated last name, was basically a prodigy. Like he served as the second, they call it, for Magnus Carlson, like seven years ago at this event, which is the person that basically like shadows you and kind of like plays the, opposing role to you. And so it's, like at the time, people were saying, oh, wow, this is kind of

crazy. Magnus Carlson's using this guy. Like, this guy might end up being one of the best players in the world. He might have to face off against him. And then it would have been an advantage. And now, like, seven years later, they're literally facing off against each other in the championship. And this guy, apparently, is like the best chance at taking down Magnus Carlson. That has happened in the last, like, 10, you know, 10, 15 years, whatever, since this guy's been around. That's insane. So it's kind of cool. It's like a, it's this cool story. of like something actually come into fruition and like the prodigy like is actually coming and going to take down the mentor. The student has become the teacher. Yeah, it's kind of cool. So I was like

reflecting on it and one of the things I was reflecting on with it was like, why do I even give a shit about chess? I had never played chess. That was my next question. Well, yeah, I like never played growing up really. I dabble. But Queen's Gambit was my connection point to chess. It was during COVID. Queens Gambit, if you haven't seen it as like this show on Netflix, freaking amazing. It was so good, so engaging. And when I looked it up at to do some research for this episode, I saw that like chess play and chess purchases skyrocketed after Queen's Gambit hit. And so it was this very cool example to me of like culture and media driving some like

esoteric, uh, nuanced niche sport or game or whatever it is into mainstream. And that got me thinking about. an idea that I want to talk more about. And that idea is I want to buy the X games. I think where this is headed. So just to set the stage for anyone that doesn't know, the X games were in extreme sports event, not dissimilar to the Olympics. There was like a winter and a summer.

Started by, I think by ESPN. In 1995, Providence, Rhode Island was the first X games. It became a kind of a mainstay. Like for the 2000s when I was a kid, the X games were kind of dope. Like you had the Winter X games, Sean White was like the big guy, is the snowboarder, red hair. You had, you know, like the Tony Hawks of the world and the skateboarding on the X games. It was a big deal.

It was a big thing. And then somewhere along the line in like the 2010s and beyond, it started to languish. And it declined. I don't know whether actual participation in those sports declined or whether just ESPN and Disney after they acquired ESPN did just a poor job kind of amplifying the games or what it was, but somewhere along the line it started to decline. And it's not like extreme sports declined. It was just, I don't think, I don't think that was the case. I don't think so. I mean, I'm on the board of some companies in the space, and it's been

like GDP growth, low single-digit growth, generally speaking in these extreme sports, but fervent, you're a community guy, fervent communities. People just love the sports, are very, very into it. And so it got me thinking about the X games and what's going on with them. And so I did some research. Turns out, ESPN, last. year said they were trying to sell them. They were prioritizing streaming and other things at the Disney level. And so ESPN is trying to rid themselves of this. Originally, they wanted $100 million and they were going to keep producing it. No one took them up on it. And so then they were offering the X games. You could buy all of the IP of the X games for $50 million. And I want to go buy it.

And I'm very, I'm quite, quite serious about it. And I want to like, I want you to tell me why I'm being dumb or why this isn't going to work. So my vision for the X games is you go and you create a cultural moment. So like what did Queen's Gambit do so well with chess? What did Drive to survive the Formula One do so well that vaulted Formula One? It was that they created a personality, a face that actually went with these sports. Drive to Survive. Previously it was watching a car on a track and it was like you're just driving around. All of a sudden you watch Drive to Survive and you the faces of all these athletes. Suddenly, I'm looking and it's like, that's not just a car, that's Lewis Hamilton, that's Max for Stoppin. And that completely changed the game. Formula One

viewership through the roof now in America as a result. Crazy. Why can't you do that exact same thing with the X games? Amazing personalities with big cult social followings, good looking people in general that are very athletic and working on really cool things. You have the base of this fervent community. All you need to do is suddenly like expand that with a cold moment. And I think you could do that by creating one of these like kind of follow along like rags to riches type stories where you're following people and the personalities and you create these personalities and this tension that then you can play off of in the games. So so much I love about this. Sometimes I like to just disagree with you on stuff. Please do. But it's hard to

on this one. I think like the question for me really is like beyond the content production of hey let's let's commemorate these people and create these moments um what else is different in in in this new version of the x game so for me like what what i would do is i would web 3ify the x the x games right like give people a vote um let's do this let's do this exercise this is a great i love that you went this direction i hadn't thought of this i was thinking like you just go do the X games in a new way with this culture moment. Let's do the, what is Web3 X game? What does the Web3 future of the X games look like? Well, I think the first is, to your

point, you start with the athlete and you reward the top 1,000 fans of each athlete with an airdropped NFT or token. And that token gives you a certain action. access and you could vote on where this person could go or what they can do. You can go to different events. I think, like, I love the idea of, like, if there's 5,000 athletes on the X games, like, they should be throwing, there should be an event every single day that these athletes are throwing and that are bringing, like, local communities together. It shouldn't be that these athletes play just for one week in, the summer and the winter, but that they're like musicians,

they're touring, you know, two thirds of the year. And I think with your idea around content and creating content, which is just essentially excuses to talk about things, and Web3's ability to reward fans and give them certain levels of access and voting,

I think that, you know, that version of the X games is, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so what you're hitting on is super interesting, which is when you go and do this, the X Games IP doesn't give you access to the athletes. You need to give the best athletes in these extremes where it's a reason to be a part of this. And so part of the whole pitch, I think Web3 actually creates a really good pitch here, which is we're going to give the athletes and we're going to

prioritize the athletes with immense tools to become monetizable in a much deeper way and to create way more access and we're going to build IP around you as an athlete that we know is going to expand the value of the X games and the property we're building, but it's going to arm you with ways to monetize that you never previously had. You have big social followings. Now we're going to give you arm you with ways to leverage NFTs for specific access to events, to AMAs, to different things, you know, super fandom around you. We're going to go, we're going to go do an interesting like series tour rather than just having it be a summer and a winter games where it's like so event-driven and it's a couple of weeks we're going to make it a much longer thing we're going to do this show around it

maybe there's nfti access to the show where you now have uh people that are kind of directing and pitting matchups within it so that it's like creating and stoking intrigue the same way Connor McGregor kind of created um you know UFC in a big way i mean actually ufc's a great case study of this because i've seen an interview with dana white where I was just talking to my friend who launched the XFL. Sam Schwarzstein is his name. He was at Stanford with me. And he launched the XFL.

It unfortunately fell apart due to COVID. But it was an incredible case study of going and trying to do something innovative. He was telling me this story about Dana White. And Dana White talks about basically UFC was on its last dollar. And they threw a Hail Mary. And that Hail Mary was the like ultimate fighter series thing that they did where it was like a reality show of trying to make it to the octagon and like, go. make it to the top. And that was fundamentally, like, going and doing something that kind of created personalities and created a vibe around it. And we're going to go do that for these

athletes. It's going to create immense value for them and make the games much more valuable. Also make these athletes much more valuable. The other layer to this, which I have to say, is I think we should form a Dow to go buy the X games. And it would be the first time that, like a large games property IP was owned by a government, you know, a collective body and a community.

And it would be so cool because the games themselves and the sports have such amazing communities. And so to be able to involve the communities and the decision making around what these games look like, what these properties, media properties look like, what the web verification looks like, it would be such a

cool example in case study. and like Constitution Dow just went and raised 40 or something like that to go try to buy the Constitution's a piece of paper. No utility to it. The X games, that's like real utility. I mean, there's an event, there's things you can go to, there's like real business value to that. And so I'm staring at it like we should we should go form a doubt and go buy the X games. Yeah, I think what I'd like about this idea is there's so much trust that's been built between athletes and. viewers already and the communities exist and it's just about like you mentioned kind of like stoking the

you know giving the tools or arming the rebels for athletes and it's also about arming the audience like it's give you know super charging the audience so that they could be more involved and get involved so um i like this idea i also it gets me thinking about like will traditional sports leagues like the NFL, NHL, MLB start embracing Web3, or will there have to be, or will there be like Dow's buying the XFL, the X games, whatever, or will there be like brand new Web3 sports leagues and e-sports leagues that come out and we're starting to see this? I think there's one, I forget the name, and e-sports. I think that's the question.

And I believe that we're probably, like number three and number two are more likely to happen. Yeah, it's an interesting question because sports are a great place for this to happen. Because fundamentally, the community is creating the value. And it's tribal. What is the value of the Green Bay Packers? But for the incredible fandom that's built around it. And when I think about the X games, that's what I think about. That's why I'm so excited about this idea, honestly.

And so I want to do it. I'm actually being fairly serious about it. I don't think $50 million is actually, I don't know whether it's a Dow. or if you go pitch an investment fund on going and doing it and going and doing it. But if I can't get excitement around a Dow, I don't know what I can get excitement around. And so I'm actually pretty serious. Like, Wag, BXG, Wag BXG, we're going to buy the X games. There you go.

That's what I'm coining. But we should bring in our guest to talk about this because our guest today is, this is crazy for me. He's like someone that I've looked. Well, hero, I don't know, maybe it's a strong word. I've looked up to him for a long time, grew up watching him, compete, win at the highest level, two Olympic old medals. He's someone you look up to. Yeah, I think he's amazing. And I've recently connected with him in this new life context, and we've become friends.

And that's crazy to me. Yeah. That, like, how the world, the universe, and the way this has all come together. And now we get to sit down with him in chat. So we're going to bring in our guests, Apollo, oh, no. And we're looking forward to the conversation. We're going to buy the X games. First time that we've interviewed someone with multiple gold medals.

Yeah, first time. Maybe the last. We might get Michael Phelps on the show. But for now, most gold medals ever won on The Where It Happens show. So enjoy it. Wag, BXG. You guys go to the yacht party yesterday? No, I heard about it, though.

It was like a lessover and marshmallow. So, dude, I just left before they even performed. Yeah. And then someone was like asking, someone was asking me. And they're like, why would you do that? And I was like, it's a good question. And then I came to the real. I was like, I just, I personally don't really care.

Yeah, exactly. I love their music. I love marshmallow. I've done events with them before. You know, like I love Alessa, I've done stuff with them in the past. But I guess like, you know, when we have like different career paths or different things that are what we believe to be important in those times, we then like carve out time. Yeah. You're also able to make better decisions around stuff like that when you're sober.

So like the fact that you don't drink, I actually think helps you. I'm making of bad decisions while I'm sober. Imagine if I wasn't. Yeah. Like seriously. I mean, like I have a really tough. making a decision to leave something and like make that trade off when I'm like past the point of being a bit drunk like I just that's when I'm like someone comes up and says like oh come on it's

marshmallow and I realize later I'm like I don't care of marshmallows here I don't even know who that is really that's my take is that there's so much noise out there and that there's like I see people on Twitter saying like oh I need to be an arpazel I need to be an arpazel it's like you don't actually Like you might have a really good time at our Basel And like it might be super fun But like from like a career Business perspective My take right now is that

New world that we live in like Just go and build the thing that you're building Be in the Discord Yeah like It's probably more alpha anyway Yeah and like get a good night's sleep Yeah I do think I mean like when you're first trying to get into it Immersing yourself in it in a few different ways

Like I had never really spent time in the like crypto NFT web 3 world until NFT week and I spent that whole week going to events and that was the first time I was just like I was just holy shit man like there's the the techno optimism of it the like positive

sum mentality of people all being together and all of the like cool things that were being built and just like the wild shit that was happening around it I found amazing I just thought it was so cool to see and so for me that was like that was definitely

definitely worth it. The second, you know, it's diminishing returns, right? The second set of events. Like this week, I'm not quite as motivated to go to the full slate that I went to that week. That's awesome. You feel like that. It's a good perspective. Well, because I'm going to see the same people for the most far, right? To your point, it's the same people. One thing I want to add, because Bob Act, just, my friend just walked in. One of the reasons I left that party was it was like one of those, like, big lines, guest lists, bouncer. And, like, I had a plus one, and they didn't honor my plus one. LA, New York.

Yeah, exactly. In honor my plus one, so my friend couldn't get into the room. I heard it was very strict. Very strict. And like, I kind of don't want to be in the, like, I don't want to be in that room, straight up. I actually do not want to be in that room. Because you don't believe in that, like, exclusivity unnecessary? I don't like that vibe.

Like, I don't know. It's something I guess I grew up with. Like, I just don't, I don't like the vibe where it's, like, there's some people who are excluded. I don't like that exclusionary vibe, where they make a line for no, like, no reason. Yeah. That's interesting.

Yeah. It's interesting. It's also web, like, crypto and web three. Like, it's, personally, I think of it as like open access, meritocracy, borderless. Anyone can do it. A kid on the streets in India has the same access to that Discord channel as a kid growing up in Greenwich going to a country club. I keep using that example, but it's very true. And so then when you like stick a line in front of something and it's like guessless, oh, you're not on this list, you can't come in.

It actually does feel anti the ethos of what we're all here for and what we're trying to build. That's why I like FWB. So they're throwing a party today. Except the party is you just need at five FWB. What is that? How much does that cost? What is five FVB tokens now? 50 bucks maybe?

Okay. You know, so it's like nothing crazy. And they allow people to go and buy it, which. Versus like, hey, I'm going to select who is on. And this is not a, you know, I'm not trying to like this Kygo. Like I'm sure, you know, he's a great guy. And like the people who do the event, MoonPay is like they're great. I love them.

I love that team. It's not like a knock on them. It's just like a knock on like the list, like culture. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we are, are we rolling? Okay. Yeah, he had us with the cold open.

So we're, yeah, we're good. So I think that's like very human though. Yeah. Right, like, so I think, you know, like, right now we've got these, like, layers, right? And everyone's, like, trying to put these layers, like, you've got this bottle of, like, liquid like, in chemistry, and every, like, layer is, like, labeled something, right? And right now it's, like, all shaken up. Everything's mixed up, right?

And over time, that shit just goes back to normal, right? Because humans are still operating in the same kind of neonathal, like, ego-based, still chasing the same thing. And I think we like to hide behind this idea that we're here for maybe a greater purpose and cause. I do believe that is the case, like if you really zoom out, but still, I think, in the acute moments, we're still driven by the same things that we want, desire, want to reflect upon. I mean, it's the same cultural phenomenon that's existing. We're just using different tools to exemplify what we believe we should be hiding behind

or represent in certain perspective. I don't know. That's my thing. There's a lot to unpack there. I agree with you in principle. I do think, I think humans are status signaling monkeys, the exact same way we were 10,000 years ago. And I think we're seeing a lot of the new manifestations of that. And I do, I agree with you. There's like, there's nothing. I'm not a particularly religious person. So I don't particularly

believe in like some, you know, brilliant afterlife. I sort of just believe that you're here to procreate and you're here to hopefully have fun and smile on the way, but that the reality of it is like your purpose is what you make of it. And if you can, you know, create and rationalize a purpose and something that motivates you and makes you happy, then that's great. I like, that's also. That's also, why I just believe in being nice to people. And I like being around people who were just, like, you and I only recently met, but the first I met you, I was like, this is just, like, I admired you and looked up to you for a long time as a kid because of your work ethic and the things you were doing and what you were about

and the things you spoke about. And then I met you and I was like, oh, this is just as positive a guy as I hoped. And that's not always the case that you meet people and then you feel that same way, that they just, you want other people to succeed and you're happy and you just, like, that vibe and that personality, I think, is infectious. And so it bums me out when you then meet people, and they don't have that, or they're kind of a dick. And you're just like, why are you being an asshole? We were talking about this last night with a famous investor that we all know.

It's like, why are you a dick? There's absolutely no value to just being an asshole. Just be nice to people. It doesn't cost you anything. So, anyway, it's a weird transition. But I, well, I mean, the transition, I will say, because I don't know you, we just met like a second ago. but I will say that we've done, this is our fifth recording today and three out of five people

when we've said that you're coming in, they were like, oh, that guy's such a good guy. That's such a nice guy. Oh, tell him, I say what up. Yeah. That's awesome. So, you know, I feel like you're leaving a trail.

You're leaving a trail and I feel, and I think, well, so first, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Second of all. You like dumped right in. It's the cold open, man. I love the cold open. But it is, this whole thing is very funny to me.

And we're going to die. I swear we're going to talk some like interesting life and business stuff. But the whole, I do need to track the course of this because, as I said, I grew up watching you and really admiring your career and everything you were about and your work ethic. I was someone that was striving for something athletically. And it was very empowering to me to see someone that had worked at something so hard and your grind and the effort you put in. I thought was amazing. what I now think is amazing is we live in a world and we're doing things where somehow our paths have crossed and we've connected.

And now I'm sitting here and I'm having this weird like holy shit life moment of someone that I like grew up watching, admiring, all of a sudden I can sit and have a conversation with and learn things from and be present with. And hopefully other people can listen to it, benefit from it in the same way I felt I did. So there's this crazy thing happening, at least for me in my mind of like the universe. and the way all of this stuff comes together. And so I'm just personally very grateful and excited to get to chat about tech, business, Web3, your ethos on life. Can we start with your idea you're talking about? Yes, I do want to start there. I do want to start there.

So the way the show works is super casual. We just like to jam on cool things with friends. And it's not an interview per se, but we want to, like, go deep on cool topics. And so one thing I was pitching recently and that Greg and I just spent a lot of, little time jamming on is sort of at the it's something you're going to understand because it's at the nexus of like cultural movements and sports um so you're familiar with the x games yeah okay so the x games you've been around for now like i don't know what is it 25 plus years like it's been around in 1999 the espn owned it for forever um has languished um they haven't you know they've kind of

disney has gone into different direction and they're not doing anything with it Last year, they basically tried, publicly said they were trying to sell it. And so initially they said it would cost $100 million to buy it. No one wanted it. They came down and they basically said they would take a $50 million offer for the X games for all the IP. Do you want to put a Dow together? I want to create a DA, you read my mind. I want to create a Dow to buy the X games.

You buy all the IP of the X games and basically completely reimagine the X games for a Web3 and crypto-enabled world. NFT access, special events, athlete, NFTs so that they can further monetize and have and capture more of the value that they're creating with their social presence. Video games, like skateboarding video games are rock and they were so, Tony Hawk Pro Skater was so sick. So an X games video game, I think would be amazing with all the different sports. Sell the rights to the broadcast. Make it more of like an event series like UFC rather than just like two times a year, like the Olympics, which you. obviously participate in and know about and just do so much more with the IP than I think what what Disney was able to do and what, you know, what ESPN did.

So what do you think? Where am I wrong? Tell me, like, tell me why I'm being an idiot about this. I don't think you're being an idiot about this. I think people did the same thing when they're trying to buy Michael Jordan's old house. Sean Puri. Those are, like, like, fractionize that idea. I think it was actually a really interesting idea.

I mean, in terms of like monetization, I think there's. some friction points there. I think the idea, in essence, is still strong, right? Like, there's still a strong community that loves extreme sports, just like people love Michael Jordan, as do I. Like, had I known about that opportunity, I probably would have come in much earlier, just because I think it's cool to have, like, some piece of history about someone who I looked up to when I was a kid. Yeah. But I think, so here's an example that I thought of a long time ago. So I think NBC, you know, who broadcasts and buys, like, they spend billions of dollars to have the access to the Olympic Games to broadcast them.

I think that those numbers have been somewhat going down over time because the cultural shift is changing where I think the Olympics is trying to figure out where it lives inside this next generation's, like, day. And is it important? And why is it important? I think that conversation is kind of an important one. But something they did was they invested into Snapchat. chat. I don't know what the amount was. It might have been like 500 million bucks. Some like

an absurd amount of money that I thought it was crazy in hopes that that would attract the next generation of viewers. And I thought it was like, well, why would they just give the money to a public company versus going directly to the creators themselves? The top 50 creators in the world, right? Speak different languages and saying, we're going to give you all access rights. We're going to get a whole crew with you each. And you are going to go experience in Olympics like you've never even dreamed of doing, we only ask that you broadcast this daily to your fans, right? And if they did that, how much would that cost to get 50 people in the room to give them this incredible experience?

The creators themselves would love to do this because they're always looking for cool, unique pieces of content. NBC has never had an ability to directly communicate and engage with an audience that they feel really, really behind to. So I thought about that. I was like, why would they do that? And I just figured out that, like, it's obviously much harder to do. but I mean that's what I would have done.

So like take that idea and then instead of going to the traditional broadcasting rights, go to the Twitches, go to the existing streaming networks and say like, hey, let's build an entire like worldwide phenomena. Kind of like what Sean White did

with his kind of like, what is it called, air and style, I think it's called? And then he sold it right to a Chinese-based company. So like I look at stuff like that and I'm like, this is pretty smart, right? So you can definitely create something

may not even have to be the X games, but I think the branding is definitely an accelerative tool there. I think it's cool, man. I do think, so I think you're hitting on a lot of the things I've thought about with it too, which, number one, I think you need to reinstall it in culture. So you brought up that kind of culture has shifted away from it. I see things like culture is now creating movements around all of these topics,

drive to survive, what they did to Formula One and viewership of Formula One. With that Netflix show, the secret sauce of that was they installed personalities behind the car. So when someone's watching, it's not a car anymore, it's Lewis Hamilton. Or it's Max for Stopping. And you're watching and now you're like, invested in that guy because you've seen him without his helmet on and you really see him. And you could do that same thing. Like an X-Games drive to survive or an X-Games like Queens Gambit did it with chess. Chess all of a sudden during COVID became this cool thing.

Why not go do something like that where you install personalities? You played a somewhat esoteric sport or you competed in an esoteric sport, but you were a huge personality. you weren't probably able to, in the way you could today, profit from that as much. If you had NFTs, if you had all these things that could have provided unique access, giving you the tail of value associated with it. Today we live in a world where these athletes can. They have huge social media followings, a lot of cult community followings that they could grow and build from. And so you create some sort of show or ecosystem, whether it's streaming or something unique,

that installs personalities behind it. And then on the back of that, give those athletes a way to monetize it to incentivize them to be a part of the new X games that we're creating. And I think you could, I mean, $50 million just doesn't feel like that much to me for something like this. You could probably go sell the streaming rights to it for the games and finance part of the purchase price of it because ESPN's not going to do it. So you couldn't go do something with them. But I just have to believe there's a way with all these new tools we have to give the athletes a reason to do it, to give fans a reason. to want to come back and be involved in it. I'm on the board of an action sports company,

Fox Racing, which is this amazing motocross mountain bike business. And the community and the fandom around it is insane. People have tattoos of the Fox logo on their bodies. Like that's an X-level thing. You see bumper stickers tattoos on their body. I got CP, you go to the races, and people have like, oh, yeah, check out my Fox tattoo and they show it to you. It's nuts.

And so if you can channel that, that's the, it's crypto, right? I mean, that's Web 3, it's community. Yeah, I mean, I think what we're not talking about here is that in sports, and by the way, preface it, I'm like the most non-sports guy, even though I did drain a couple three pointers outside. He did. That's not on camera, but someone saw it. God saw. Someone saw it. Today, fans don't have the ability to really have any say in professional sports.

Like you, like for example, like baseball is how many games? Like a 162. It's way too. So boring. And I bet you if fans had the ability to vote on that decision, maybe they'd make it 62 instead of 162. Or maybe they'd change it from nine innings to seven innings. I don't know. But giving them the ability to vote, Web 3 in a Web 3 oriented way makes a lot of sense to me.

I think that the fundamental shift that's happening is that. people, especially younger people, don't want to be passive consumers of stuff. And that's why I think Web 3 is so interesting from like an entertainment and community perspective is if you could, you know, actually enable two-way conversation, great things could happen. Have you seen mad realities? Yes. Have you seen this?

No. You'd be interested in this. So it's, I don't know, you might have seen it when Clubhouse happened. There were these group of women out of NYU that did like NYU chicks roasting tech bros, I think was like the name of it. And it was this hilarious thing that went pretty viral. Shoot your shot. Yeah, like they would come up and pitch something. And it was like a dating thing sort of.

And it was very funny. And they went very viral. One of the women from it, who I actually went to high school with, incidentally, has started this company called Mad Realities, which is the first NFT reality dating show. And so anyone, you and I can go buy an NFT for a rose. and then we can vote on the outcomes and actually drive the outcomes of this reality dating show that they're going to film in New York.

And it's kind of a cool version of exactly what you're saying. And the application of that towards this X-Games idea could be cool. You can involve fans in, like, who are you staking head-to-head in some event because now the personalities matter

and you want your athlete to be going against someone, you can kind of like pit people head-to-head? I'm meeting somebody on Saturday who's raising a Series B. basically a fan-controlled community economy around sports. Really cool. Invest in it. Yeah.

It's pretty cool. I'm seeing a lot more of it. It's cool. And I think that's the shift, right? Is going from like one single entity now saying like, you know, creator economy. And then now, you know, like your fan should be actually voting and staking based upon what topics and direction that you guys are talking about, how much time you spend, who you

should in view next, how you reach out to that person. Are they incentivized to, and why? I think that's where the concentration happens. On sports specifically, I think that's going to happen a lot more. I've seen many iterations of it on the kind of gaming side. So like online kind of gambling side, I've seen a lot of different kind of conversations around what sports looks like and how people can interact.

And so just, I think that now we've got like the tools to really actually produce those things in real time. And that's cool, right? Like, I don't know. I mean, it's never going to happen for the Olympics, right? That's such a centralized controlled entity. I mean, at the beginning of this year in January, I remember having a conversation with some friends of mine and saying, like, hey, like, why don't we produce a Dow to see and identify where the next Olympic city should actually be held? A radically transparent way where communities and participants, it's tough, right?

Because I think theoretically people don't usually vote when it comes to, like, mass scale. But what if they could? And what if there was, like, an economic trail where you could see, like, hey, this is going to be. and benefit the local economy in a way that's really, really beneficial. And also, this is really important from a societal perspective so that your daughter, son, whoever can see the impact of having Olympic Games here. Or maybe you don't think it's important. Maybe you don't want this here. And you should have a say versus like six people who are controlling a particular entity. So you were an Olympic athlete. How many gold medals did you win? Two. Two gold medals.

Insane. Gold medalist. How would you reimagine the Olympic Games? Like if you could, change things about the Olympic Games, make them more athlete friendly, make them more fan friendly. What would be the things that you would envision changing about that? That's a great question. That's a long question.

I think I love the fact that the world comes together. I would like to just see more access, right? That's my biggest thing. So NBC does a really good job of providing all different ways to consume the content. Like, they're really good at that.

But I still think that they, I mean, it could always be improved, right? So, like, how do you get more people participating? It's a bit of a catch-22, right? Because the Olympics as a whole, as a business, like if you take the USOC for the US OPC, the United States Olympic and Paralymp committee, their business model is to generate medals, which then in turn attract sponsors so that they can continue their jobs and have trickle-down effect to supply the training and resources for Olympic athletes. That's the cycle. That's the feedback loop. So it's tough when we talk about like what do we want to change because even like

with mental health and sports today, we want athletes to be open and vulnerable around how they feel. Simone Biles did something that was perhaps previously unthought of by dropping out of an Olympic games. I think it was four out of the five events she was competing in and saying like, hey, this is, I'm not okay, this is not okay. And then we saw the backlash of sensitivity around which polarization view you are taking as an individual saying, hey, I believe that my strongly held, you know, conditioning says that you should act a certain way, respond a certain way as an athlete because that's what I was believe in. And I get that. Like, that's how I was brought up, right? But then on the flip side, there's a new era that says, well, she's still a human

being. I have no idea what she's actually going through. Why should my opinion of how she should represent herself actually come into play at all? She's one individual person. So, like, all these, I think about all these different kind of fragments of what's happening in the Olympic space and how much sports has changed and where it's going and why it's important. But I say that because the cycle and the commercialization of the games is all-time high. And they're just adding sports. Like, e-sports will probably become an Olympic sport at some point. Whether I believe that is valid or not, it doesn't really matter, right? I think there's enough people play e-sports to say, like, it should be a sport and we should have some.

kind of control mechanisms around who should be crowned winner and receive a gold medal. Now, like traditional stick and ball sports, American sports, we'll probably say that's stupid, we don't believe in it, just like people will probably point to equestrian or curling and say that that is dumb. Hey, I was on the curling team. So I take personal offense to that. You should trigger? It's okay.

It was, I had to like, sorry, I had to be a part of a team in high school. and it just felt like the easiest team. I mean, I grew up in Canada. Okay. Side story, I can't believe I'm, you know, we can cut this out. Nice. Or keep it in. But basically, fun times.

Biggest game of the year, he was supposed to be shuffling. It's harder than you think. It's harder than you think. No, honestly. It's a cool sport. What I'm saying is like, because it doesn't replicate the athletic, belief that I think should be going into like wrestling for example like to me wrestling is like one of the hardest sports in world right that's my conditioning and belief because I used to live

with those guys and I used to watch them train and know how crazy they are right and I learn a lot from them but then someone who plays chess like who it's not that much of a physical sport although it takes like a lot of mental brain power like you know someone might say like that's that's not a sport but it kind of really is right so I don't know we're just like what would I change about the games dude I'd change so many things yeah I think that the um I can't even give you the straight answer. The ability for the athletes, one of the things that broadly bothers me about sports is it's a very short-lived career. You have an extreme peak of your relevance and your fame and all of these things. And the Olympic athletes, it's even shorter. An Olympic, gymnasts sometimes get two games, but a lot of these Olympic athletes, like the sprinters, they get one game for the most part where they are like for three weeks a hero of their entire country. And they are not a, able to capture that value for the long term. And I do personally think, like, I know everyone always like the Bitcoin fixes this, Web 3 fixes this. I really do think there's an angle here where like

Michael Phelps is an extreme example, you're an extreme example. But there are people where if they minted a hundred of their gold medal as an NFT and you could own one of a hundred of whoever Apollo's gold medal as an NFT, there are a lot of people that then like, oh, okay, you get to go to an annual meetup or something or you get on an AMA and you get to of chat with people, if they have access to this ticketed events, things like that with it. It's sort of a cool way to like provide these athletes with more of a payback on all of the effort that they've put in for quite literally their entire lives to get to that point. And I think that there's something beautiful there because so many of these athletes,

they're literally relevant for two, three weeks and then they go back into anonymity and not able to profit from what has been an entire career of crazy sacrifice. and like debilitating injury in a lot of cases. So I've been having this conversation for years. Last year I started having conversations with the USOPC around kind of reinventing the way that the distribution of payment to athletes has handled and how they can monetize their own branding. So like with every influencer that's on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or wherever the distribution channel is, there's like ample ways to monetize that, right?

and audience is typically the number one way to do that. Whether it's do merchandise or whatever you're kind of selling and shilling, it's great. With Olympic athletes, it doesn't work that way. So if you look at like NBA Top Shot, right, they have the kind of athletes commissioner, so to speak, right? That controls effectively all the rights. So all the athletes that are competing in the NBA, they almost like relinquish their rights because they're playing in the NBA. And they're paid like handsomely to do so. But there is like a give and take there, right?

And because the players association oversees all of their rights, they can effectively work with what's happening with Dapper or, you know, Top Shot or whoever the entities are that basically say, hey, like if these things are sold in our platform, you basically are only receiving a fraction of what you normally would receive. And then when you see someone like Gronkowski go and do his own, he scrubs the image of all the kind of likeness and IP and all these things, does it have relevance, does it have value, what's happening? The challenge, I'm giving the context, because with the Olympic space, you've got NBC, you've got the IOC, you've got the USOPC, you've got Getty images, you've got the individual athletes, you've got the other athletes in the same race,

then you've got the individual sponsors that are also there, and then you've got the IOC sponsors there. So, like, I originally had this idea of saying, like, hey, I want to go create a repository of all of the greatest historically significant Olympic moments in time. Jesse Owens, right? Muhammad Ali, Michael Phelps, like whatever you want to do, right? Like Tommy on the stand, you know, like holding his fist in the air, like really historical, significant moments in time.

And have them as a part of like a virtual, intra, real-life museum. Like that should be here at Winwood Walls, right? Is here's how you bring sports to an audience maybe that doesn't care about sports. And you bring it through culture, through music, through politics, whatever that is. And I had this idea to create all these moments as NFTs and then have, like a museum and only like you could have like a proper museum like this in place like Abu Dhabi where like they're willing to pour like billions of dollars into this like really cool like AR immersive experience and the challenge that we had that I ran into

very quickly was that the athletes actually don't own the rights to their own shit. Damn I was gonna say this sounds amazing I don't know it's a year ago a little over a year ago I started having this conversation and I was like really really hardcore because I was like, look, and then the way this benefits is like the platform can take a small sliver, right, of the fee. And then we can have the majority go towards the athletes or the athletes' families or whatever the entity is. The estate or whatever it is, right? Or like some like organization that helps oversee. Also, we could pocket like a side over here to say like 10% is going to go towards helping athletes transition beyond sports so that they can communicate to the world that they have extreme productivity.

They just need to be kind of given guardrails again outside of the Olympic realm. That's the biggest we talked about this one I saw you last, was that like the reinvention for an athlete is this like closely held identity to one side. And then all of a sudden there's this great divorce that happens. And the identity that they love that was, they taught them everything. I'm writing a book about this. Why I'm like, I'm so passionate about it. It tells them like, you're no longer good enough.

I found someone younger who's better. And no matter what you do, you can't come back to me. So you either go be a coach, you'd be part of the team somehow, but you can no longer compete and be the star athlete again. And the Olympic space hits a very short window. And so the athletes then like, shit, like, what else am I good at? What do I do? Like, what skills do I have?

I've, like, pushed off school. I've pushed off social life. I'm, like, this, like, very narrow, isolated person that has incredible attributes underneath this layer. But I've never really expressed them outside of leaning on the levers of, like, my fears of failure or, like, rage or, you know, like, insecurities and self-doubts to prove myself in my sport, because I could physically do that. Now I have to do that against if I'm trying to work in like Web 3 or I'm trying to become someone who's a new creator,

I've got some 17-year-old kid who's faster, smarter, more experience than I'm, and I'm 25 or I'm 26. So there's this like letdown that happens. And so I had this idea about creating all these little pockets of like, I deeply believe in the value that athletes can bring to society and to economies. Because they do contain really cool life lessons that are usually taught later on in your life. And they have them right out of the gate. and the work ethic, the discipline, like the being coachable, all those things are natural.

They got punched in the face. Punched in the face many times. But they need to be kind of molded and still held in the same way and mentored in a new environment, in a new career. And it's like really frightening and like very visceral in terms of the breakup that you have

with that first identity. And so like this NFT platform or this like NFT museum was like my way of basically funneling this other idea around something that I cared about. And it never took off. and I was very sensitive around like pursuing a project

that I wasn't going to be able to spend like a ton of time on. Who owns the rights? The rights are owned by like a whole series of people. So the IOC has like the ultimate say over what's happening. But then the person who took the picture for Getty images also has the rights. Then the athletes that are also there also have a say. And then the above the athletes is the U.S. Olympic Committee body. So that's like the U.S. speed skating, right?

The U.S. Olympic Committee. So basically what I'm trying to say is it's really complex and it's convoluted and it should change because there's like a lot of value there. To me, when I think about sports and like the pinnacle of achievement in the Olympic space, it is quite unique. And whether you watch sports or not, like there is something cool around someone dedicated an entire lifetime around a moment that lasts nine seconds or 40 seconds. And in that moment of time, whether you're in a same bolt or Michael Johnson or Michael Phelps or who. whoever that person is, like the difference between first and like being off the podium is like fractions, like hundreds of seconds. And because it's like that, what happens to that person who's in fourth, who's in fifth?

I watched this like really cool documentary, I think it was a BBC documentary on the only person who beat Floyd Mayweather. And it's just, I think it's, I want to say it's this guy who's somewhere in like Eastern Europe. And it showed the two dichotomies of lifestyle difference. You got Floyd, right? Like crushed it, like super flashy, like all, you know, like money. Monty Maywe. And you get this other dude who lives in this localized town that looks like it's been bombed like 10 times.

And he's like known, but he's like had like his own bouts of like depression and issues associated. And he was a celebrated hero in his home time because he won a medal, right, for his home country. And I just think about that stuff all the time and like why do two different like people go down different roads? It's typically because they've been celebrated by one. I'm very lucky, dude. Like I know that I'm very grateful because I was chosen by NBC to be a special. to be a spotlighted athlete. But why me?

Just because I was winning, there's, like, other people who in the Olympic space that have crazy, cool stories that you've never heard about. And I know, because I live with these guys in the Olympic Training Center. Like, coming out, like, you know,

being like an Olympic, imagine being an Olympic gold medal, so I'm not to say the person's name, but winning a gold medal for, like, a really hard sport, and then retiring for, like, 10 years, going and living your life, getting married, having kids,

then falling into depression, and then having, like, a drug problem, and then losing your family, losing your kids, is no longer have access, losing your job, you have nothing. And then coming back to the sport, because the sport is the only place that you've found that gives you some semblance of feeling important or some sense of, like, purpose in some capacity. And then the first match that you have against the number two in the world, you beat him.

After 10 years. It gives me chills. It's like really cool, right? I have no idea where that guy is now. But I remember sitting in this, like, Olympic training center and seeing like an unfamiliar face that could definitely tell he had been through some shit in his life. and then sitting down with this dude and being like, dude, like, what's up, man? Like, I've seen your picture in the halls in the training center because you're a legend,

but where have you been the past 10 years? And he, like, just for like three hours tells me his life story. I'm like, fuck, no one has told this story. Like, why is NBC not concentrating on this? So, but then that's the power of streaming and that's why you guys can bring people in here. It is just the, I have so many thoughts on that. I mean, I've, as a former athlete on a completely different scale than you, but I played at a high level in college sports.

We were the number one team in the country at a number of times. And I think about the thing you said about a few seconds, feels like you've spent your entire lifetime preparing for a few seconds. It gives me chills thinking about that because I have a moment like that in my career where it was one game.

And I was out there and I had to get the last out of this game and it was a big crowd and it was a huge game. And I think I thought about that while I was out there. Like, holy shit. I've literally, my entire, from Little League, the first T-ball field I was on, to like this moment, this is it. And it's either going to go one way and like this guy's going to hit a 800 foot home runoff

and we're going to lose or it's going to go the other way. And we're going to be celebrating. I just was sitting there and I was like, and it was like a two oh count on the guy as a pitcher. And I remember thinking like, am I really going to walk this guy? We're going to lose. Like this is it. My entire life of like training for this moment and that's what I'm going to do. And it went the, it went a good way.

Luckily, and I ended up, it was a celebratory moment. But that transition you talk about and the mental health of athletes to not. the ability to manage that transition, the lack of resources to help them manage that transition. I mean, I've had, I'm sure you know hundreds of people. Like, it sounds like you're writing a book about it, which I'll eagerly look forward to. I've had, one of my best friends in the world was, and I don't think he'll mind me saying this, he's one of the most talented baseball players I've ever seen on a field. It was a first overall pick in the MLB draft, like got paid $6 million, insane.

One of the most talented people ever has not made it to MLB was called the biggest bust. in MLB history and MLB draft history and dealt with serious struggle as a result of that. Just like defining who you are because it was for your whole life driven around this one persona of who you are. And I've had to spend hours talking to him of, you're brilliant.

You're an amazing person. It had nothing to do with baseball. That was one iteration of it. But there's a whole new life out in front of you. And we don't do a good job having the resources to actually tell those people that. Like the things you learned and the lessons you learned weren't so that you could go thoroughball or so you could skate quickly or so you could wrestle well. It is so broadly applicable to what you're going to go do next,

but we don't have institutions, resources to go have that conversation with those people at that next level. And it's not just Olympians or professional athletes. Like, think of, you know, U.S. veterans or veterans in general. Like, they own startup founders. There's millions of, you know, U.S. veterans. veterans who come out, come out of training and service and they're like, okay, like, what next? And then they fall into depression and they fall into, you know, a lot of dark places. But they, you know, like, you know, training for the Olympics or like training for, you know, high-level sports.

They've got, they're rooted in a lot of great skills. It's just how do we, how do we transform those people into the, into the, into, the real world. I know there's some people trying. There's organizations, right? Yeah. I think these are all, a lot of this is like psychological and a lot of it's conditioning. You know, I think a lot of people when they come home from service, they probably feel alien, less appreciated, like no one knows what they did, what they went through, and no one can relate. Because that's how I felt, right? I felt like, you don't, you have no idea what it took.

I wasn't genetically gifted in my sport. Like I had to go to places like you don't even know about. Like, that was my thought, right? And so we actually need, like, real transitory, like, just transition mechanisms to the help a lot of these people, because they're powerful, man. But, like, I think people go through this all stages in their life. Everyone has to reinvent and pivot at some point, you know? Like, when I finished the book, which I, like...

When's it coming out? What's the book called? It comes out in February. It's called Hard Pivot. Okay. And it just talks about, like, I think, all of our human struggle with reinvention, adaptation to uncertainty and how did I figure out kind of my own personal way

as I'm figuring it out and just like kind of transparently give like some tool kits and things that I've had to go through both on a personal development level where my own micro traumas have come from and all these things right

like I grew up in a single parent household where you know my father was Japanese I'm half Japanese and he had like extremely high expectations for me right so very tiger father driven like amazing love like super lucky to have this. But also, like, no matter how bad I failed, he was like, oh, like, you can always, you can always pick yourself back up. No matter how I, even if I won, it was always

better. So, like, that, like, level of fear of effectively letting down the one person that I sought the most love from my life, which was my dad, was, like, deeply rooted at a very early age. And so it drove everything that I did. Everything. Like, everything was always, I think, and I didn't know this too much later in my life. But I think a lot of people go through that process of, like, the microtrauma and the experiences that we've had as kids in school, relationships, through work, they affect you unless you deal with them in some capacity. And that's why, like, during the beginning of the pandemic, like 18 months ago, I was like, man, like not only athletes are going through this. I think a lot of people are going through this. And there's got to be a better way.

It's never easy, but at least if we can embrace parts of this journey and know that it's not easy and know that there's perhaps a different avenue for us to grow, like at least it makes life a little bit less like Sisyphus, you know what I mean? Yeah. Where it's just so painful to like always go back down again and I don't know. And finding the communities to have that outlet to talk about it with peers. Because I always find these things are built up in your mind more than they're real. Like for me, that pivot away from baseball, I was hurt.

It was very clear to me, abundantly clear to me that my career was over and then I needed to hang it up. and the hardest conversation you bring up your dad, the hardest call in conversation was to call my dad and tell him. And I still, I mean, I still think about it and feel like emotional thinking about it when I called him. And I was like, dad, you're going to be so disappointed that I'm having to hang it up. And he didn't care at all. He was just like, you've accomplished so much. I'm so happy, you know, that you feel that you need to call me.

But there was no, like these people love you and you have so much support out there. And we need to create systems where people realize that, that there is that support, that you have that community around you. Like, the team rallies around you, the people that you've trained with your whole career rally around you. But you need to not be afraid to seek that out. Because when people go inward and you just retreat into the shell, that's when you end up with the real struggle I've found. When you're able to just say, like, hey, I'm really sad about this. I'm having to change and make these changes. The war of strongest prison is right between your two years.

Ooh, that's a great line. It literally is. You can have the most, and we see this with, like, crypto and web three and everything that's being created today. Like, it's the most powerful tool in the world. It's also, like, the most damaging tool if it's used against you in the wrong way. And I lived in that space for a long time. I think many athletes do where, like, you are literally your own worst enemy. And if you listen to that voice that tells you often that you're not good enough and it's not good enough and it's never going to be good enough,

and you're not tall enough, you're not attractive enough, you're not smart enough. and other people have more than you. And, you know, like, that's a really, like, confusing and also can be really, really, I think, just destructive, you know, and you can sabotage yourself. And I think that, you know, I, for years, used that as a lever to, like, get me up early and keep me up late at night. It was a very motivating tool, but it also kept me, like, in a little bit of my own prison, in a sense, like, where I wasn't fully able to accept myself and also love myself for my own inconsistencies. and self-doubts and beliefs and just like being human, right? I wanted to be a machine. That's the scary part for me about Web3 and Crypto.

The dark side of it is, you know, it's a financialization of everything and everything is liquid. And while that has a lot of benefits, it also means you're playing a game, and you're playing, as Paki McCormick calls it, the great online game, and you want a high score, and you're just 24-7. It's not like the markets that close on holidays or the weekends. And there's a public scorecard.

It's a public, it's literally a public. Everyone sees it. So I think, you know, for people playing in the game, the people listening, like, set your own goals, and it's great to, like, hit milestones. But I think that, you know, there's going to be a burnout. I predict a burnout. And I'm already starting to see some individuals that are just, they're taking it too far. Yeah.

But I'm talking to a, you know, a two-time gold medalist. You're looking at like a one-time jump shot, zero. Not even bronze medalist in curling. In high school. Yeah. No, but we all struggle. It's funny. There's levels to it, right?

You just, we all struggle with the same things just in different ways and iterations. I do think athletes, it's a very, very, I'm so excited for your book because I have so many friends. I went through it personally. I'm, I'm super excited for it. I'm going to like share with a lot of friends because I think colleges should be sharing that type of context with their athletes. NCAA had all those commercials. Like 99% won't be going professional. We'll be going professional in something other than sports.

And for some reason, we didn't hear that message in college enough. And I mean, I went to one of the best sports schools in the world, and we didn't hear that message. And so many of my friends were feeling lost after I felt lost. There were times when I was like, how am I going to have done this and, like, accomplish what I feel like I've accomplished and not have a job or not be able to go make use of the skills I feel like I've developed? And now I have a lot of friends who have gone and played a few years professionally in whatever sport, football, baseball, and they're like, holy hell, the rest of my life. And they might have made, I have friends who have made $80 million playing football. or whatever it is. And now they're like, well, shit, I'm 28.

And yeah, I have a ton of money. But, like, I have a whole life to live. I need to find some reason to get up in the morning. It doesn't matter if I have a lot of money. Those transitions are just so hard. It doesn't matter. The money doesn't fix it. On your point with, like, the burnout and there for sure is an incredible unique opportunity

that is existing right now in all online activity, whether it's crypto, whether you're jumping in, you're being a creator, where you're trying to. and develop a community economy, like whatever the iteration is that you are latching yourself onto. I think something to make really important for anyone who's building things in the space where, yes, there's a small window of opportunity. And I'm definitely never one to tell you not to jump out of the airplane with no parachute because there's a lot of power in burning the ships, so to speak.

But also, you can't have so much external abundance in your life, but then be in, like, severe internal poverty. And if that is what's happening, where, if you're a trader in crypto and it requires you to be so glued to your devices all the time, and if you can't disengage for periods, you're actually no better off than the guy who's working 18-hour shifts. Like, you're exactly the same. Your number on the scorecard is just slightly different, but your life is the same. There's nothing that's inherently different.

So, like, again, like I get it, right? Like, everything needs to, like, in sports, we use the gas principle. And in tech, you know, you go through like short sprints and, you know, you go through, Sprints, right? Okay, the next two weeks, the next week, the next six weeks, it's going to be a sprint. Everyone hands on deck. It's going to be not balanced at all. And I think that is important. But I also think it's important to be able to disengage and also be present, right? Because this race of what's happening in Web 3 and the development, we're like at the tip of the iceberg. Like where we're heading and the direction that it's going and the opportunities that exist on the other side are the ready player ones. Like that is literally what we are creating in many iterations. And if, if you are participating in this in some way, to reinvent, reimagine, and just change the way that we think about our values between each other, between the different games that we're playing, between the content that you're producing and consuming, between the financialization of products, I always ask myself, like, why does this need to exist?

At the end of the day, like, is this actually really important? And if it is, it's amazing. If it's not, then I'm still playing the game. So, you know, like, I've done so much, like, personal deep work, and especially, like, the past, like, I would say eight years on, like, why do I act the way that I do? Why do I operate the way that I operate? What am I chasing? What do I believe life wants for me? And what do I actually really want out of life? Are those things aligned in some capacity? And then I sometimes find myself still being the hamster in the cage, right? Just running, running. Now, at least now, I know that I'm the hamster. I know. that I am still on the treadmill. And at times we just have to get off, you know? And so, like, right now we're doing this at Art Basel, and it's the most insane thing that I've seen in years.

Well, we kind of talked about that earlier, right? Like, you showed me your calendar, and I almost puked. And I say that with, like, I felt for you because I was like, I think that you shouldn't go to, you have two, how many dinners? Two to three dinners. Four dinners tonight. They're all the same time. Yeah.

I don't know like what's the, yeah. And humans should have one dinner. And that's the message. Are you hungry, Paul? Are you really hungry? No, you know. No, but that's the message. I want to get a call.

I don't think enough people are hearing that message. Everyone's hearing the message around. And by the way, I'm the biggest, like, the future is Web 3. The future is creator. The future is community person. And I also don't sleep a lot. So I, you know, but at the same time, I pull myself out of it and I'm like, do I really need to do this right now? Or can I go and play the guitar or whatever?

Or go and just go for a walk in the park or go do things that are quote unquote mundane. Can I ask you something about that? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's really profound and interesting that you're saying that. Do you feel more free? Do I feel more free when I? When you're able to tap into that. Yes.

I've learned that from him And what does the freedom give you Like in terms of I think of two things right FOMO and FOPO FOMO we know of That exists everywhere Especially in crypto

Fopo is like fear of other people's opinions Which is sometimes directly correlated with FOMO Do you feel none of that? I feel I mean I'm a human being So I do feel some of that But I think I've trained myself To

Not care what people think and just do, you know, we were just talking about this right before where I was wearing this t-shirt and it's at Snowden Deli on it, which is this Jewish deli that was like right next to my place growing up. And I wore it to like a famous person's New York Fashion Week party. And this like well-known hip-hop artist came up to me and he said, are you wearing a Jewish deli's t-shirt to a New York Fashion Week party? and I was like, I guess I am because I'm here, you know? And it's like, and he couldn't believe it, right?

It was like celebrities everywhere and everyone was dressed in. And I think that the freeing part of it is, yeah, to answer your question, do I feel free? I feel free when I, when I'm able to do what I want to do. Isn't that the definition of freedom? Yeah. It's awesome. By the way, I love that you do that exercise. I think it's really important for all of us to go through that process.

I think there's times when we when we when we decide not to we say okay this is I believe this is important or maybe I don't believe it's important but I'm going to do it anyway and it doesn't mean you can't work hard right like I now you got to work hard you got to work hard prerequisite yeah free step right like you got to work hard and like what I'm working I'm working right like and I'm all I'm dialed but what I'm not I'm not that yeah that I mean I think about that is like just being like really just authentic man if you can be authentic to yourself and then kind of catch yourself, at least be more mindful of your own internal emotional thoughts that are pulling you or directing you in certain ways, maybe that don't

directly are in alignment with your true north of what the ultimate goal here is or what the next chapter is in your life. It's hard to have that perspective ongoing because we do buy into the external signaling of society telling us what we should have, what you should be doing, which Dow you should be participating in, which new token launch you should have, which new game you should be participating, which new play to earn, learn to earn, whatever it is.

And when you're not, you're less than. Yep. Right? And that's the biggest issue here is like because you're not in the club, because you didn't get in at this round or because you didn't buy it at this price, you're less than.

You're less than smart. You're not, you don't have as much access. You're not in the club. And those things are true, right? Maybe in some instances, but they're also just like made up. So I don't mean, it's a, I think it's like an age old conundrum that we are facing, right? It's like how to balance, I think psychologically between what we know to be externally signaling to us as the new wave of this conditioning is happening,

which is to be, you know, connected 24-7 all the time and always available and always ready versus like still being human. And then like balancing that. It's tough. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. It's like I'm in between you two sort of on this where I came from a sports background and I had the like very similar mentality that I think you had from what I've read about your background and listen to you speak about it.

I was just like complete balls to the wall. Like I'd wake up at four, go to bed at 11. Like I had to work harder than anyone else because I knew I wasn't that talented. And I was just like, I just have to work harder than everyone. And I took pride in that. And it was like this deep. I almost had a bitterness about the fact that I wasn't talented, and that drove me. We're like, you were better than me, but like, fuck you.

I'm going to, like, just do better than you because I'm working harder. And I took pride in that. And then I took a job in traditional finance. And that was, like, a great breeding ground for that mentality, where if you just worked harder and you worked more hours, you were like, okay, that was, you took pride in how many hours you worked, a hundred hour a week. It was like, oh, great, you're doing this. And now I'm, like, in this sort of new world, or I'm getting to do more creative

things and I'm sort of able to work more like a lion than like a, than like a cow to use the Naval thing of like more in sprints and real creativity and trying to drive things forward. And it's important to how I think for me to actually be able to think clearly and not be foggy all the time because I haven't slept. And so I'm somewhere in the middle of that transition now of like I still have that deep-seated feeling of like being an underdog and wanting to go figure these things out. Neither of my parents were in finance. It's like I want to go make money and do a bunch of cool things and like make my parents proud.

My mom's Indian. I come from a mixed race background as well. And, you know, Indian parents, it's like the old thing of like, why you're not, why you not doctor or like why you not? You know, now it's like why you're not CEO of big tech company. It's all the CEOs now. But I still have that. But I'm trying to like fight against it to some extent to adopt more of these things. But the secret is if you end up having in this new world that we live in, which is like creativity-based.

Like we're creators, right? We're creating. In order to be a great creator, you need to have balance. Like, that's what you're going to go on that walk and it's going to hit you. Hey, I should, you know, I just had an idea for a startup. I got to go launch it. Or hey, like, you know, you're playing tennis or something and like something hits, right? I agree with that.

So I think like the more hours to a certain point, like it's a law of diminishing returns. and I think people need to figure out what that is for them. Is it 35? Is it 45 a week? Is it 50? Is it 70? And like pick something that's less than 100, ideally. And like I like how you put it, right? Be a human. Like, I feel like that's a good thing to end on, right? Just what makes you happy, man? We're all on like a rock hurtling through the universe and space.

Like, we're all going to die. And so, like, I think it's so fun that we get to have conversations with really smart people and get to meet people on a daily basis that are working on cool things. That motivates me to want to work a lot. That's cool. Because I can go and have conversations with smart people. This week you're here. You're meeting all these people.

Part of what's motivating about that for you, I imagine. It's like, there's a bunch of cool people that are building the future. And you get to go have conversations with them and be a part of that. And that's fucking cool. No matter how you slice it, that's a cool thing to be in it. I mean, we call this where it happens. It's like being in the room where it happens. That's what we all want to do.

We all want to be a part of it. And that's like the brilliance of all of this and why I feel so lucky. I also think it's a great place to cut off our time here because I know we're up against the end. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. That was awesome. So, so excited.

Where can people find you? So I know what you have pivot coming out in February. Hard pivot. Hard pivot coming out in February. Where can people follow you on social? You know, I'm on IG. I don't post a ton. I'm on Twitter, obviously.

Yep. The only Apollo I don't have out there. I'm not on TikTok. I don't do Snap. Okay. But I think Twitter's probably the best place to communicate. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And Tribe Crypto, doing amazing things. So excited to see what you guys built. Awesome team. Yeah. It is an awesome team. I can definitely vouch for that. It's super exciting. Thank you so much, man. Real, real honor. Wow. That was far ranging. I felt like we covered, I mean, he sat with us for a lot longer than I thought, so we ended up getting to a whole lot of stuff, which was crazy to me, by the way. It's not a takeaway, but getting to sit down with a guy that I've admired as long as that, who's become a friend, just sort of.

super cool life moment for me. So I'll let you go first. What was your one big takeaway? I mean, I'm impressed with, I mean, I'm impressed with you about this too. You and him is just the ambition and how you, you guys are like machines. Like you, there's something about sports and professional sports that just teaches you really, really to push it to the limit. And I admire that. But there is also some downsides.

and we talked about it. And I think that push and pull is healthy, but I really enjoyed that. Yeah. I mean, you've pushed me to think a lot on those things. And it's made my life better. So I'm thankful for that personally,

that I have a counterpoint to, like, be a sparring partner to help me kind of ease up on things a bit. So the takeaway for everyone listening, really, is just don't push yourself too hard. Yeah. And also push yourself. Well, it's hustle, but no one to rest. Yeah.

You got to know one to rest. It's like work like a lion. You've got to sprint when you're sprinting and really focus, but then know when to rest and like a lion knows when to sleep after it sprints. And then I can't leave this episode without my one big takeaway, which is I love this idea of buying the X games. And I like, I'm going to sing it from the rooftops. I want to go do this.

And if it's still literally on the block for $50 million, I think we could do it. I think there's a massive opportunity here, like enormous opportunity for the X games. So if anyone's interested, we're going to jump into Discord. Wag, BXG, we're going to buy the X games. Four Sigma is the secret sauce behind the Where It Happens podcast. You know how much I've been talking about that hot cocoa, the one that's jam-packed with the Rishi mushrooms.

It absolutely has been transforming my mornings. I have it at night. Completely chills me out, takes out all my stress, and allows me to have a good night's rest. After those long days of tequila on the set, I'm sure that. that's helpful. I mean, it does help. The sweet vanilla plant-based protein is the one that I've been going to. After my workouts in the mornings, it's been a game-changer. 18 grams of plant-based protein, adaptogens, jam-packed with mushroom goodness. It's been a complete game changer for me. So to go check it out, go to 4Sigmatic.com and use code the room at checkout. Greg, why do you look so

tired. I look so tired because I did not sleep last night. Have you never slept well or is this a new thing? It's not that I can't fall asleep. I fall asleep like right away but I wake up a couple hours later and I'm just sitting in my bed and I look at the ceiling and I can't fall back asleep and I don't know what to do. So I was literally you and for the longest time I was this like hustle culture bro, sleep when I'm dead, didn't want to sleep, didn't care about my sleep. And then I honestly, I started reading more of the research and realizing how impactful sleep is to your longevity, to your health, all of these other things. And as part of that, I found eight sleep, which has completely revolutionized the way I sleep. I've heard of eight sleep. Can you tell me

more about it? Think of it as like the future of sleep. All of these mattress companies have created these mattresses. They're just stock. They're stock mattresses. Eight sleep is technology plus sleep combined. So the whole product is built around optimizing the temperature that you sleep at. And so you've read about sleeping cold is the key to sleeping. And it's not quite true. Everyone has a different optimal sleep temperature and it changes throughout the night, which is the crazy part about it. So you might need really cold to fall asleep and then you might need it to be a little bit warmer to keep you asleep. And the eight sleep actually transitions your temperature through the night to keep you at the optimal sleep temperature at any point during the night. It keeps you asleep,

It helps you fall asleep faster, and I actually, since I started using it, have been sleeping better and feeling so much more energized during the day as a result. Sounds like I need an eight sleep. I think everyone needs an eight sleep. So if you're tuning in right now and you want to try out the eight sleep to completely change the way you sleep, rest, recover so that you're ready to take on all of life's challenges, check out eight sleep.com slash where it happens to get a discount on your first product. Here's a tip. Don't be like Greg Eisenberg. Be like Zahoebloom. Join our free community at TRWIH.com.