The Startup Ideas Podcast - How to Leverage Nostalgia and Win at Marketing with Danny Trinh

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

Brand storytelling is the future of marketing. In today’s digital society, businesses need to get creative to connect with their audience and truly pull at their heartstrings. Danny Trinh (@dtrinh), Design, New Platforms at Snap and consumer social legend, is our go-to guy when it comes to understanding social behavior. Danny joins us today for a fun conversation that takes us from Mike Posner’s crazy rattlesnake story to degenerate hackers, consumer hype cycles, consumer nostalgia, and the importance of storytelling.►► Want more community? Learn more here: http://trwih.comTHIS EPISODEDanny Trinh: https://twitter.com/dtrinhSahil Bloom: https://twitter.com/SahilBloomGreg Isenberg: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergProduction & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/FIND US ON SOCIALTwitter: https://twitter.com/_trwihInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/_trwihTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@_trwihWeb: https://trwih.comSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6aB0v6amo3a8hgTCjlTlvhApple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-it-happens/id1593424985SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS►► This episode is brought to you by Outer. Spring is in the air in both NYC and Miami, and we can’t get enough of our Outer outdoor furniture. Their furniture looks incredible and is durable. Personally, we love the Outdoor Loveseat.Right now for our audience exclusively they are offering $300 off any product + free shipping until May 1. This is one of the most generous offers of any sponsor we’ve had. Did we mention they have a 2-week free trial? Go to https://www.liveouter.com/room to get the deal.►►This episode is also brought to you by MarketerHire. MarketerHire provides on-demand access to pre-vetted, top-tier marketers who can freelance as much or as little as needed.They’ve made it easy to hire great marketers. With pre-vetted talent and expert hand-matching, you can add a proven marketer to your team in less than a week.Go to marketerhire.com to learn more.

We're just about surviving and taking your little idea Legos or whatever you learned and molding them around. But like, yeah, surviving another day and like making something interesting and like surviving the crucible of like that, that idea maze of like, I don't know if this is going to work. Let's try some stuff, you know. Dude, did you see the P-Ratio and Chav? I don't know. We've had this discussion before, right? What is it? 28?

30. 30. Is that? But like, what does that mean, actually? You know, like I worked in finance. What does that mean? Is that supposed to be like good to me or bad? Or like what's my reaction supposed to be to 30?

All I know is that 26 is the P ratio S&P 500. And in the S&P 500, there's a ton of value stocks. So the question that I, and by the way, I'm not in finance. But like the question I have is basically like, do I think Shopify is going to outperform the S&P in terms of growth? Like it's a growth stock. Like I believe that it's going to. like grow.

So I'm like, probably a decent bet. Are we recording, by the way? I think so. Yeah. None of this is financial advice. But what, like, what is the bull and bear case? I mean, I guess the bear case that I could make for Shopify would be like macro based.

It would be like interest rates are going to be rising. Inflation is terrible. Consumers are going to have to tighten the bootstraps. All of the Shopify stores that have thrived over the last two years and benefited from the fact that consumers have so much money and are flush with cash are going to suffer because they're not and people aren't going to be spending money on like random shit that you might buy on Shopify. And so like the bare case to me is like macro consumer economy struggles, inflation super high

and people tighten their belts. The bull case is like pretty clear to me, right? I don't know. Ecommerce is going to continue eating the world. Shopify is like the elephant in the room and enabling small e-commerce to work and thrive. and they're going to continue to roll out feature sets that make it stickier and even better for people. And Toby and Harley are like absolute master tacticians that I would just put money on to win. But if you believe, if you're investing for the long term, which you want to do, like we're talking about five years or more, like even if we, even if it goes down another 100, 200, 300 bucks, don't you think that it's in five years going to, you know, be a lot?

worth a lot more than it is today. Yeah. I mean, this is all, this is like an interesting general topic because it's like when people disagree on different investing stuff, it's usually just that they're like risk tolerance or time horizons are different. And you don't really disagree when you like, when you, um, align those things because like if my, if my risk tolerance is super low because I'm a 65 year old person about to retire and I need this cash, I might say like, I don't know that this is the best bet, but I'm 30 and I'm investing, anything I buy right now, I'm never planning to sell. Like, I'm going to borrow against it in the future, I hope, but I'm never going to sell it. And so, yeah, I'm perfectly comfortable just like, you know, buying more and more Shopify as it

goes from 640 where it is right now to like, it could be at 350 and I'd still be buying on the way down, right? Because I believe it's going to be worth a whole lot more in the future, just because I, frankly, because I trust and believe in Toby and Harley to lead a ship that's going to be doing really well. But I think when you align time horizon and risk tolerance, a lot of these disputes that people have around like different names and different stocks tend to just come into alignment or like go away. Totally agree. I also think that as investors and also people, we're just so focused on instant gratification that like when a stock goes down or it's not going as rising as fast as we think, we're like, we start to lose hope. Like we see it in a different light. You know what I mean?

Yeah, crypto did that to us, by the way. Like the idea that you like should like multiple X something very, very quickly is so ludicrous outside of, you know, in like mainstream finance traditionally. But all of a sudden that's like what we're like desensitized to it. Right. Like a 20% gain in a year is incredible if you do it over and over and over again. That's what Warren Buffett did. He just had staying power on like 20% average annual returns. But that sounds so boring to our generation to like generate 20% returns.

Maybe in a week I want 20% returns on my like crypto. portfolio, but the longer term view is not one that people are familiar with. The other thing that you hit on there is like everyone says they're not going to panic when stuff drops until stuff drops and then you're like, you start to feel this terrible sensation in your body and you want to sell no matter what. I mean, like everyone is a steel man until they're actually put to the test on these things, at which point I generally find that people just start to panic. Today's episode is brought to you by marketer hire. With marketer hire, you can get expert marketers on demand.

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And now through May 1st, you'll get $300 off plus free shipping. Again, that's live outer o-u-t-e-r-com slash room and get $300 off plus free shipping, only available to our podcast listeners. You're going to absolutely love it. I agree. Well, what are you not panicking about today? What did you want to talk about? Well, I know we have a lot, dude. I've got a handful of things on my list.

I did have just like a random fun. and Danny's joining soon, I think. I saw this really funny article, which I do just... Oh, there he is. Look at that hair, man. Oh, wow. Good morning, Jets. How are you?

How are you? Now I feel really upset that I wore a hat because now I'm, like, getting shown up by both of you guys in the hair game. I mean, 90% of the reason why I invited Danny was to just show off his vibe. So if you're listening to this, you need it on Spotify or Apple, that's why you need to watch YouTube. It's worth it just to get a glimpse of... It's for Danny's hair and for your headset.

Make sure to smash that like, comment, subscribe button down there. Yeah, smash the button right here. Check it out. I don't know where the button is, but it's... On mobile. Dude, my only face-to-face interaction with Danny so far has been looking at his Twitter avatar, and we've somehow failed to meet in New York,

even though we've overlapped several times. So now I'm a little shocked and thrown up Because you have this clean cut look on your Twitter avatar And now you come on and you look like a flowing vibe guy Like a hobo and I think I don't know were you I don't know if you want to say it out loud But there was a friend who threw a birthday party in L.A. with one republic

I was there I was there too but I was also I was wearing a beanie I was wearing a beanie and just ridiculous I was not of sound mental state Me not maybe it's possible if council is watching, I may not have been of sound state either, but I can't confirm nor deny. I can just say it a great time.

By the way, one republic, one republic, when that friend of ours said that one republic was playing at the birthday, I was sort of like scratching my head. I was like, man, one republic, like I haven't heard them in a long time. And one republic was freaking amazing, man. I thought they were so good.

Deep catalog. Also, I mean, I forgot that he, the One Republic guy on his own, made all those like EDM traps, the Lesso. Like, I don't know his name. I feel really bad, but I was like, oh, you know it when you hear it. Yeah. Dude, I mean, he's like a writer for all these other songs, so he sang those. I thought it was amazing.

I was really blown away by that. I was like, Team One Republic. I told the guy, I was like, man, I don't care what anyone else says about you. I think you're great. Do you? Okay. You know who I recently came across? Mike Posner.

Oh, amazing. Have you been following Mike Posner's journey? Since Duke. No. Since Duke, he was a Duke. Since Duke? Oh, yeah. So I found, you know, I started just following him on TikTok, actually.

And he's got a crazy story. So he, for people who don't know, he's the, I took a pill and a visa guy. No, he's the, you're cooler than me. Cooler than me. Oh, yeah. Now was the jam. Way before it took a pill and abuse it. And then they know it was the gigamesh, the gigamesh remix of Cooler than me that I remember that popped it off as like a banger.

Anyway, go on there. The guy, it was banger after banger after banger. This is what? We're talking 2006 maybe to 2011. I want to say 2009. 2009. It was around. Anyways, I remember he blew up also.

This is very internet nerd stuff, but like of what community he blew up on. There was a place called like fratmusic.com where like kids would choose the like top playlist. on like whatever compete on like the top whatever and he blew up on fratmusic.com which is like people say oh you got big on soundcloud it was like no you blew up on and like they're modern producers today that blow up with the kids on ticot on like college fratty ticot or whatever that like disco lines there's one that did like a taylor swift remix anyways getting mad nerdy is this the guy is this the walking meditation guy drag so so basically the i think the pinnacle of his career was I mean, I don't know, you know, pinnacle. He's got a bright future. But he was super, super popular. You know, I took a Pillarney-Bisa with Avici. That was, you know, he did that. And then I think he got really burnt out. And he was like, I'm out. I'm like no longer doing music. I'm done. Which takes a lot of courage to like basically be like at the top of your game. And, you know, being Tom Brady and retiring at like 23, basically. And he decided to walk.

all across America. And the craziest part of this story is he got his leg bitten off or something. Did you hear about this? No, I did not hear that. Wait, what happened? By like a gator or what? So some reptile went and ate his foot or leg. Okay?

Oh, shit, dude. I'm seeing pictures of it. Oh, my God. Yeah, and it was serious. Rattlesnake, dude. Rattlesnake. By rattlesnake. Rattlesnake.

and he was in the hospital and the doctors told him basically that like I don't know if he was going to be able to walk again or he shouldn't be walking. There's like a picture of him in a wheelchair. But that did not stop Mike Posner. That did not stop it. He came and he walked to the end and there's this beautiful TikTok of him like at the Pacific Ocean and he's like, you know, tears are kind of coming down. Mike Posner is like the inspiration of the week for me. Forget one direction or whatever. like when i when i signed up to do today's episode and we were coming on and like dany's

going to come on we're going to jam on different business ideas i never thought we were going to end up sharing a picture in the chat here of mike posner's swollen rattlesnake bit and foot but i did just share that around and we will add it to the show notes that is a remarkable story um before we get too derailed oh yeah go on before we get too derailed uh Greg you want to dive into our lists here I know we have a few things that we wanted to jam through today. Yeah, let's do it. And I think the reason I wanted Danny to come today, Danny Trin, D. Trin, D. Trin, D. Trisie is D.T. Ricky Tan.

What? Is because he comes from consumer social. Has been, you know, he's one of the, in my opinion, don't blush. Turn off your video if you're watching on YouTube. if Danny blushes, but he's one of the, if I've got a consumer social idea, I'm calling DT's my first call. He's like literally OG, you know, number one. He knows his stuff inside out when it comes to consumer social, social behavior.

And consumer social is the equivalent of Mike Posner, basically walking from east coast to west coast. Like you're going to get your rattlesnake. You're going to lose a limb. And DT is, Danny's here to tell the story. So yeah, I just thought we talked about some ideas with Danny. Yeah. Hell yeah, man.

Thank you. And I feel like that's the truth of it is. Like anyone of the consumer social for too long, it's really just about surviving and taking your little idea legos or whatever you learned and molding them around. But like, yeah, surviving another day and like making something interesting and like surviving the crucible of like that idea maze of like, I don't know if this is going to work. Let's try some stuff, you know.

So thank you. Speaking of surviving or rather not surviving. Can we just spend a few brief minutes to do an RIP of FAST? So I, like, this is, I don't want to say my favorite because there's a lot of employees who are really, you know, harmed by this whole situation and it's really sad. But the collapse of fast is one of the most fascinating things that's happened in the last couple years to me. And I want to just like recap it and I want to get your guys' reactions. So basically, fast for anyone that doesn't know was one of the one-click checkout companies. you know, you've probably seen it recently because our friend Ryan Breslo at Bolt waged the,

you know, the war against YC and the Stripe mob that he alleged existed. Fast was actually the company that he claimed, you know, kind of got propped up by Stripe and YC to take down Bolt. And Fast raised like $120 million or something crazy from Stripe, from Index, from addition, from all these amazing players. It also had one of the most out. outlandish CEOs, I think I've ever seen personally. And now as of, I think it was yesterday or April 5th, they announced that they're closing their doors. They were running out of money, ran out of money rather. And literally like on Friday is the last day that they're going to be open. All the employees have to go find another job. All the, you know, like a bunch of the employees got hired by a firm, a bunch of the engineers. And the CEO released this thing saying sometimes trailblazers don't make it all the way to the mountain. mountain top. And I just, I have to check receipts on this, Greg, because you're in this group chat where literally, I think it's almost a year ago, like August of last year, there was this product announcement that Fast did. I actually have no clue what the product was that they were

announcing, but the CEO came in in a, in like a stock racer car that was branded and fast, came into the press conference doing like spin around shit in the parking lot and then got out in like a pink blazer and got up on stage with this whole like fireworks going off and shit. And he came up and said this whole thing. And I sent a text to our group chat saying, is fast a fraud? And I'm going to post a picture of this because I think it's hilarious. I said, is fast a fraud? This has the most Theranos vibes I've ever seen in my life. And now I'm checking receipts on it, Greg. I mean, you called that one. As soon as I saw the news, I was like,

Sahel, he definitely, he got that right. I mean, my- I don't think it was a fraud. by the way, but like just a bad business. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think your, your spidey senses of like, you know, is this a real product or, you know, have they raised too much money? Is it like, is this pets.com vibes was definitely on point. Well, Danny, I'm curious for your take, Danny, because a seat, so first off, fast is like a back end unsexy product.

Like one click checkout should sit in a place where no one really sees it. Like it should blend into everything. And then doing a press conference like. that is like the most showy like consumer socially type vibe. And so I was like part of me, the alarm bells were going off of like, why are you doing this when your product should actually be seamless and in the back end with no one knowing it? I feel like I always get really wary of just overfunded hype announcements that have like details to them that have nothing to do really with the business of the announcement. And I remember, you'll remember when airtime launched

since like 2011 and 2012 and it was like just this. cluster mess of like overspending on talent but it was like you know snoop dog and and jimmy fallon and it was almost like the title announcement actually where they got they put everybody out in a line and you're like okay this is either going to be amazing or this is going to be like uh it's really really tragic and so i didn't see that last year but if i imagine if i saw someone in a pink blazer get out of a car that was doing wheelies at the company logo on it i'd be like the spidey sense is tingling on yeah on on where this is going to go because there's nothing to do I'm sorry, there's nothing to do.

Then again, okay, maybe this is also a rest in peace, Google Glass. It's like, remember when they're trying to launch Google Glass? And they had to you guys jump out of a weather balloon and, like, bike into Moscone Center. It had nothing to do with Google Glass. I think it's just one excuse that people parachute and go into Moscone said, you're like, what does this have to do with Google Glass? At least it's like a consumer product and you can justify it as like, okay, hype is important. But like a B-to-B sale of one-click checkout, like where is the hype necessary? Greg, actually, your friend Parker Clingerman is in that video because he was the guy that drove the car.

He must have gotten hired by them. Yeah, I saw that. He graduated crypto college. So he's spent a bunch of time with him. But yeah, he's, I did see that. I'm curious, his take on it. He's the best. I mean, he's the best.

He's a great, great guy. For me, the lesson is if your founder is coming into a press conference and a pink sport jacket, and doing like Tokyo drift style spinouts in the parking lot in like a rally car, you should start polishing your resume. I think, yeah, I think the question is like if you're a founder of a venture back startup, how on a scale from like zero to fast, like in terms of being like super public and super audacious and super like marketing stunt driven, like where should the, where do you two think a founder should sit.

I don't know if it's my call. I think the one asterisk worth putting down here is like the hindsight's 2020, right? And I'm sure there have been some really crazy, audacious consumer hype stunts that worked out for really great products. Like the Super Bowl ad for the Mac, you know? I'm like, okay, that's the craziest, one of the craziest ads of all time. Ironic, but you're also like, what does 1984? I mean, okay, I kind of get the message, but this is over the top.

top, you know? Also, the Mac wasn't, didn't work out so hot. So maybe that's a bad example. But okay, all I know is, you know, I think it comes down to the person. It comes down to the founder of, can they stomach it, are they shameless enough to stomach it living with them for years? Like Sam Altman, the double popped collars on stage of WWDC when he did loops with neon and neon green and neon pink. I was like, how are you going to be next to Steve Jobs and a double popped collar? You know, that's going to be etched into history, you know? Maybe some people forget. get it, but like most of us, the rebel remember that forever. And so, yeah, you can try to do this, like, revisionist, like, image polishing and, like,

let enough time pass to, like, you know, clean it up, you know, and become fresh. It's just, yeah, if you're going to go crazy, you know, just know that it's always going to be on the record books, you know. In this case, there was hot pink, but also green on top of the hot pink. So maybe that's the fast founder should have worn a green blazer over the, uh, over the pink, you know, anyway, I've been fine. I love it. I love it.

Well, anyway, I'm glad that we got to cover that because that has been grabbing at me for over a year now. And hopefully those employees all land in a great place. And honestly, wish nothing but the best to the people that were there. But what a crazy situation to raise that much money. And then also shows that just because you have a high valuation doesn't mean you might not go out of business, literally tomorrow. So what's happening to them? Like, are they just closed or like, does someone picking them up? Or like, you know, is there a solid landing?

Like closing their doors on Friday from what I can tell. I mean, it literally dropped yesterday all the news on it. So I'm sure they're still developing. But if you go to like the CEO's website, it used to be this crazy website. Now it's a Google Doc of all of the employees' names and like what that, whether they're looking for work and what they were doing and stuff like that. So it seems like it's just shunning down. I don't know. Maybe the technology gets acquired by somebody.

But it's pretty crazy. Let's jump to the next stuff on the list, man. I know we have some ideas to do to jam through. I do want to get your guys take and Greg, especially yours. Since we talk Play to Earn on the show quite frequently, the big news in the play to earn world over the last couple weeks was this massive hack that hit Axi Infinity. You know, $2 billion plus in revenue that they've made over the last couple of years, probably the predominant Played Earn game, at least the number one that people know about

or hear about, became huge when there was like the news article in the Philippines that there a bunch of people that were making a living wage off of it and pretty amazing. I mean, massive hype cycle to Danny's expertise around, you know, around consumer social. And they definitely wrote a massive hype wave and they come down way off of it. I mean, I think daily active users are down 50% from the highs. But then a week ago, they get hit by, I guess hack is actually a loose term here. What really happened was that someone got access to the private keys that stored the funds that existed in like Ronin Bridge. that was kind of between currencies and into the game.

And someone took $625 million worth of funds that were customer funds, you know, like player funds and put it off into, you know, a bunch of a bunch of their own wallets. Literally just took it. And it took six days for anyone to realize, which is wild to me. So reaction to thoughts here? I mean, look, we're as an industry and as a space for people to build, you know, we're still in the earliest earliest innings, right?

like 10 years from now we're going to look back and be like damn that things got crazy back then huh but you know and and obviously we're in the wild west and it's like yeah if you're going to do anything in the wild west you got to be uncomfortable with some growing pains and i think it's a little tragic because you know i think they really blazed some pretty crazy norms and like cut like really kind of validated a space that other people were quick to laugh and boo at you know um yeah i don't know too much about the hack all i saw was that they was they they claim it was a combo of social engineering plus did this thing we took over the majority of the validators and then like washed away. I saw something yesterday that was pretty sad, which was like they only announced a $150 million

recovery fund for the $620. Oh, that is sad. Which is like, no, like if you're going to do it, you got to go one to one on recovery. Like find, like in this space, you can find the people to do it, you know? That's sad. I hadn't seen that yet. And I don't want to boo at that because, look, finding $620 to like is a large amount of cash to cover. but it's just like you kind of lose a lot of that player loyalty and that player trust

when you know when you get compromised you don't actually fix it you kind of say like here's 20 cents on the dollar back you know because yeah it's like you know now no player can really it's it has that like little tarnished reputation which is sad because I think you know that's such a killer team and I think it's a killer space and you only hope that people continue to build more and that players more and more players adopt it and what's sad about the hack is now everyone that ever tries this stuff is it would be like oh, but you don't, you know, be careful. There's that one time where you lost the house, you know?

Yeah. And so it's a step back, but I have a lot of faith. I really like a lot about that team. And I hope they continue to go forward. I think there was a point in which, like, more people in Singapore had wallets than credit cards for taxi. And it's like, holy, like, they're on to something. So, yeah. The other thing that I saw that was interesting with it was,

right after the hack happened, someone took a massive short position against the currency, against the Ronin currency. And it was like, you know, it didn't get discovered for six days. So it was funny because someone took a massive short position. So it was like, are the hackers trying to like double dip assuming that this was going to come out and it was going to drop? But then it backfired because no one found out for six days. And so the short position actually got liquidated because the currency went up. I mean, these are some truly degenerate hackers. I mean, like, this is like, there's levels of degeneracy.

And it's one thing to like punch a man. And it's another to like then trade on beating that man. You know, like, it's like, oh, God, it's just like levels. But I think, you know, did you see recently there was another wallet. There was something where someone stole $150 million or something. And they actually created an anonymous recovery service where users could apply to get their money back if it was under $100,000 or whatever. I need to find this.

I'm like totally blanking out on what it was. But I'm like, the hackers these days are just getting degenerate and weirder, you know, which is also the space that we're in. Like it's just crazy degenerate, you know? It is really hard, though. Like now, if you're these hackers, I mean, everyone, like, crypto has this reputation of being the place where, like, criminals go and this is, like, degenerates and all these hacks and stuff.

But it's really freaking hard for them to actually do anything with this money. Because you can see exactly where it came out, what wallets it went to, and where it is now. So, like, they can now, you know, do some, like, elaborate laundering, you know, through little exchanges and tiny amounts of money. But with, like, a $600 million, it's really hard. I mean, it's the equivalent of, like, you go steal $100 million from a bank vault, and now you have $100 million of cash and you need to figure out how to use that. It's not easy. Like, it's actually quite difficult with a large amount of money. looking forward like 30 years from now when in when narcos on netflix is covering crypto uh and they're like

you know we have we have pablo askabar now but like it's going to be whatever it's going to be some combo of like showing off tornado cash plus this like 17 year old at home being like i think i should take a short on this game you know and they're like oh shit like you had dinner and they're like oh i got liquidated you know there's that great Netflix documentary that just came out about the um about the Canadian guy that had the exchange that like, you know, was, was died in India of some like Crohn's disease related thing. But now people are like, is he actually dead? It's called Trust No One. It's on Netflix. It's actually awesome. I started watching it with my life. It's so good. And it's like as wild and crazy of a story as you can imagine. Yeah. I mean,

so that's, uh, that's the play to earn space. Yeah. It's, uh, listen, don't, don't, uh, don't go to the Wild West for a spa weekend. That's the lesson. I mean, I think what's exciting to me is if you look at Axi, I mean, with all due respect to the people behind it and the folks who make that game, it's okay game. There's a lot of stuff that is really that they pioneered. I just hope that better games come along, you know,

and I know there are many, many more coming along, and I hope that they make things interesting. personally for me, not my cup of tea, but it's really interesting as an example to point to. They were advancing it. They're working at it, right? Like, their whole plan and the roadmap was really to make the game more immersive over time. Because I do, I mean, they readily acknowledge that, like, if the game is not an immersive playing experience, it's very hard to have durable, sustainable financialization within a play during game. And I think they know that.

They're a really smart team. Greg and I both know Gio there, who's great. but it's a challenge man and now this is like a new thing i personally think of all of this as like the other edge of the return sword you know like everyone gets so excited about crypto and they're like you know i 10xed my portfolio i did this and that well that doesn't come with no risk right and so every now and then you're going to get your shit stolen or like something crazy is going to happen that you didn't expect like that risk or that that return you got was not free it wasn't like you uh you know you found some world where you could get 100x plus returns with no additional

risk. The other piece is just expect volatility to go both ways. It doesn't only go up, you know. I mean, we love up only energy, but like, uh, sometimes that goes zero real fast, you know, and like the nature of literally playing in this, if you play, play, play there and like, you know, expect things to get twice, you know. That said, I'm, I'm a huge maxi on just hoping Pokemon wakes up. And if anyone of the Pokemon company is listening out there, I just really hope that they get into this space because that's when that's when the fireworks start you know let's let's talk about that for a second like if you if you were the the the CEO of Pokemon like what sort of what sort of ideas trends concepts would you be thinking about like what would you be doing I got into this debate the other day with

someone they're like oh you know Pokemon has neantic whatever and I'm like no Pokemon owns the Pokemon game literally every few years they introduce a new Pokemon set of games and like add another 150 Pokemon to the universe. Like they, it's almost like Star Wars. Like they have a storytelling engine and they control the IP, right? And so to me, it's like, Pokemon has been no stranger to like all kinds of experiments

with like bad games. Like they don't have to be these crazy franchise, like these crazy, you know, like triple A, quadruple A game releases. Like they can do a ton of experiments. And I'd say like if I'm Pokemon company or now, I would be fast tracking a few, parallel tracking a few experiments, you know?

Like remember they made that like Pokemon picture game for Nintendo 64 where you could like you could use like a snap yeah Pokemon snap and you know like yeah do I remember what do I remember you know yeah course and that Pokemon pinball on game boy with like the actual they introduced the rumble cartridge you know and it like it was like the only you know one of one rumble cartridge whatever and it's like yeah Pokemon is a no stranger to like experimenting with new technologies that may go bust and may go to zero but I'm like if you're Pokemon like you're sitting on some of the craziest IP like I think it's the third like largest media franchise ever.

Don't call me on that, but I think it's like they're ahead of Hello Kitty or, but I think the craziest thing is they're ahead of Mickey House. And I'm like, yeah, like, go experiment, you know. And I'm sure they are. So all I'm saying is I'm just adding a mortgage fee out there to hope that they do it faster. What do they do? You guys might know this. So I've never really like research the Pokemon company.

And the fact that it's an independent company is interesting to me. And the fact that like Disney hasn't gone and just trying. to acquire it. I'm actually shocked that, I mean, maybe now it's just too big and it'd be too much of a big swallow for them. But like, what are they doing, Greg, on the IP front? Like, we've had the discussion on the show before around, you know, companies like Disney and how they police their IP, you know, with an army of lawyers and lobbyists, etc. And, like, Mickey Mouse keeps coming up for coming into the, into the public realm, public domain. And they keep changing copyright laws in America so that it doesn't reach the public domain. So there's companies on that end of the spectrum. Then there's this whole thing around like CCO that a bunch of, you know, the NFT projects have have pushed out and focused on.

Like is Pokemon on one end or the other of this spectrum? Are they like policing their IP really tightly? The, the Pokemon company is a joint venture between Pokemon, I believe, Game Freak and Creatures. Game Freak and Creatures are video game. development studios. Nintendo also is involved there. So Nintendo.

Oh, so Nintendo, GameFreek, and Creatures have a joint venture that Oh, yeah, sorry. Exactly. So they, it's an interesting model that they're basically like, okay, here's like three really big companies who have, you know, different skill sets. Let's come together, create some, like, incredible IP. use that IP, you know, in the case of Nintendo, use it in video games, but also license it out for movies, for collectibles, for XYZ.

From what I understand, they're very cagey with who they license their stuff to. But they're very entrepreneurial in the sense of like, what's the relationship between, what's it called Megan Quinn's company? Yeah, so what's the relationship between Pokemon and Neantic? I mean, I don't know the exact terms, but it's not like they have exclusive. I mean, I'm sure they have some forms of exclusivity. They've licensed it, right? Yeah, it's almost like a branch.

They have like a branch. They're just a branch of the Pokemon universe, you know? And like, I think that's something that's been really done on my mind. I know Greg, like, I've been, like, obsessed with recently is like storytelling engines and like these dynasties of storytelling, which is like, if you look at Disney, you look at like having pickstar Lucasfilm Marvel you know like these dynasties that like create more and more and more and like as their surface areas bounce off each other they make even more possible like I think another good example that people don't think of as a storytelling engine it's

like LVMH where like whenever they're doing it right now where they're trying to rehabilitate Tiffany and co with you know they acquired it they tried to dump it and they had to like buy it fully but if you watch what Tiffany Coe is doing it's like 4D chess you know they have jZ and biancee rocking crazy jewels from the vault whatever And it's a storytelling engine to like make it relevant and cool again, you know? And so I think of the Pokemon company, I'm like, yeah, like, they're this, this, this, this storytelling IP universe that is endured and found all kinds of ways to come to you. Like not just, and games, not just digital games. Like the cards themselves are like, that's its own crazy fan base that's like just out of control, you know, uh, and do it.

And so, yeah, like, you know, they, they have the AR stuff from the antics, you know, but like, you know, in this, in this day and age, like there's so many more places like, they, they. can go, you know. Like, I grew up on the Pokemon TV show, you know. Same. You know. The movie, remember the movie where you got the, the mute, the mute card that was like, yeah. Well, can you talk about that? Like, explain, explain that moment. Explain that moment in time. Explain, because I feel like some people, there's a lot of like Gen Z and older generation watching. But for us, millennials, that was like, that was monumental. Well, it, and this is the same air as Harry Potter, but like the coolest thing at a Pokemon was it hit multiple surface areas at once. Like I literally begged my mom for a Game Boy Color because I needed a play.

And it was almost like choosing a gang of like, oh, you chose either Pokemon Red or Pokemon blue. Same game-ish, but you were definitely like gang colors like, I'm red or you're blue, right? Then same time, every day you're coming home from school, there's the Pokemon show. And they would teach you the Pokemon, like they would show the outline of a Pokemon. Like, who's that Pokemon before the commercial break? You'd be like, oh, I think it's, that's got to be Colferi, I think, you know? And then, bam, after the commercial, like, I got them. That was Claferi, you know?

And then the cards, it was like this, like, status ladder of like, okay, can your family afford a lot of cards? Because if you get a holographic Charzard, you're basically a local warlord. You're like, yo, I roll, I move differently. I have a holographic Charzart. And then, it culminating this moment. That was such a status flex, by the way. That was like the modern-day Lamborghini. Like, if you rolled with the holographic Charzard, you were such a badass in your

You're like, no, prove it. Like, at summer camp, you'd, like, prove it. And they'd show it and you'd be like, oh, my, like, that kid is different. That kid is, oh, damn. That kid is built different. You know? And then it culminated in this moment, though, the movie came out. And it was like, yo, okay.

A, and like, this is like, there was, like, they were, there were 40 chests. They were like, if you go to this movie, we'll give you the Pokemon Mu, you know, I think, you know, I'm going to, you know, there's me and mute two, but, like, we need to be this crazy holographic card that looks like it's an ancient runes, you know, like whatever, and everyone that shows up gets it. And I remember they did the the full court press. It's like McDonald's or Burger King or whatever, like, you could like get the happy meals with the Pokemon. And it was like this thing where Pokemon, they told their story on every surface possible all at once. And it was like, it was impossible to be alive and a kid

and not like, no, 150 Pokemon, which is like, that's pretty crazy though. You basically taught like a bunch of kids, like all these, all these, like an entire like species, you know, So anyways. Yeah, it goes to, I mean, it goes to just this like broader point of storytelling and the power of, and I think brands are finally starting to realize it again. Like, it's sort of, I think like the era of like ads and like social, you know, buying ads on Facebook and Google and all these places sort of like put, um, sort of put storytelling on the back burner for a while where people were like, dude, the arbitrage on just buying ads is insane. So we're just going to say, screw it and just spend money to acquire customers. And it's such a good return.

Who cares? And now you can't do that. And so the businesses that are thriving and that are going to continue to thrive in the coming years are going to be the ones that actually have a story to tell and tell it really effectively. Like I saw Toby from Shopify tweeted out this really funny thing recently where he was like, you know, it used to be that you could go type something in and like basically have no one competing against you for those ads like and Google AdWords. And he's like, now I'm pretty sure you could like smash your face into the keyboard and roll it around a little bit

and have like a hundred people bidding against you on those adwords. And it's just a sign of the times, but it now creates this massive opportunity for companies that storytell effectively. And Pokemon, you bring up as an example of it. I do have to shout out, by the way, on Pokemon cards. The most hilarious thing on Pokemon cards is Greg, our friend, Josh Fabian, the founder of Metify, his sons are ranked like top 30 in the world at Pokemon cards. They're like nine.

And there's no age restrictions on those things. So like the kid is like top, his older son is like 12 or something and he's top 50 in the world in Pokemon. And he goes to these competitions and like Pokemon cards against like some 45 year old who clearly has like a different level of mental faculties because he's a grown man. And so Josh was recently at a tournament watching his son play and some guy sat down in front of his son to play him in like the championship and was like, oh, this should be easy. and now this 11-year-old kid dismantles him. And at the end of the match, threw down the gauntlet card and literally looked at him, crossed his arms and was like,

guess it won't be so easy, huh? It's so good, man. One, like, weird, like, linking multiple threads of the conversation together. Like, this is maybe my big takeaway is that, like, the ability to storytell meaningfully is what separates to me the companies that endure, like, especially in consumer. like the things that endure the things that don't like if you think about it like look at youtubeers like competing on youtube like if you're mr beast or any these people they

storytell so well and they do it with persistently weekly like crazy and like compare that to like like the fast guy doing like i'm gonna do pop wheelies and wear a pink blazer that's like a chief story it's like oh look at me look at look me well like the story doesn't endure it doesn't really resonate it's just like this like flash in a pan you know you don't really you like you yeah it's memorable but like it doesn't touch you know and it's like these other things like these Pokemon, like YouTubers, whatever, like, the things that really endure are the ones that can do it consistently and, like, leave something with you, you know? And so, yeah, I think if you look at consumer founders today, like, the ones that are killing us the best or the ones that are

really leaving you or something. I also think that they, when I think of brands, like, Pokemon, Nintendo, etc., they do such a good job at storytelling from, like, an ecosystem perspective. like everything kind of like you know A is connected to B and B is connected to C and C is connected to D and it's all like intertwined like I think like to your point around like what Pokemon was doing around

basically onboarding people to the game via questions and teaching them is like it wasn't like it was very deliberate. So I think like deliberate storytelling in addition to deep storytelling are like way underrated. 93% of your life has spent indoors,

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Yeah, and it just has to be woven into the DNA of what you're doing. Like, if you're a company and you're growing and you're not thinking about storytelling, if you have any sort of consumer-facing angle, you're going to struggle long term because at the end of the day, you just cannot, like, even just like mechanically, when you're starting as a company, your first customers are your lowest customer acquisition cost. That's like the people that you get early, the true believers. And over time, you have to find a way that your customer acquisition cost doesn't go nuts and doesn't go through the roof. And for most companies, it does and they don't go out of business. That's why they're not around 10 years from now because you get further and further away from your core. And it becomes more. and more challenging to acquire customers. Storytelling is how you cut through that. And storytelling is actually how you find a dynamic where your customer acquisition costs either stays flat or comes down over time. You know, it's like network effects with a consumer business, you know, similar dynamics.

But storytelling is so powerful for that type of thing. And any company that's not thinking about it and thinking about it in the context of the community they're building and the ecosystem they're building to Greg's point, I would just be short. The one thing I'd add is, you know, toys are like the prelude to big ideas. And I think a lot of folks mistake YouTubers being really silly. So the point about stunts being like flash in the pan, I'd actually add like a little riff that like if you do do stunts,

make sure they have a story behind them that's repeatable and consistent. Like some of my favorite YouTubers is this guy named Arak who like literally, I feel like we watched go from zero to a million. And his big stunt was that he could sneak into anything. And so he began as this fanboy who would like sneak into Logan Paul fights, whatever. But he would keep doing it. Like he would sneak into the Super Bowl. He'd sneak into the Floyd Mayweather like crazy or bigger and bigger, bigger things.

Like with people that follow the story are like, oh my God, this guy's hilarious. And now he's diversified his channel and does a lot of other stuff. I'm like, that's what his thing. There's another really funny YouTuber, this guy, Jideon, like, one of my favorite pranksters, he like has no shame and like you feel the secondhand awkwardness when you watch and do these hilarious stunts. But he has a storyline through it where when people ask him for his name when he's like getting arrested or kicked out, he'll be like, I'm DeMarcus cousins.

And he has this video where he actually ends up like his star has blown up and he's cool with Carl Anthony Towns. He actually meets DeMarcus cousins. And all these kids at, like, a Rockets game are, like, losing their shit, watching him meet, like, DeMarcus cousins. And it's, like, this story where you're, like, what you feel like you're with him, even though he's, like, a prankster and this, like, like, flashy, hilarious stuff to grab attention. And so, like, yeah, I think it's, like, even if the way you tell your story is, like, loud pranks, find a way to keep it consistent and not just, like, look at me, I'm in a pink blazer, you know? Which, like, doesn't really last. again, I don't mean to beat up on the fast guy because I think also, you know, great team, whatever.

Unless you're maybe in like the blazer business though, you know, like, yeah. There you go. That would, that would be how you do it. Totally. I mean, it was kind of, it was kind of a sick blazer. I give him credit for it. I wouldn't pull it off, but some people can. I want to spend, we've got like 15 minutes left.

I want to do a little bit of like rapid fire on a handful of ideas. So maybe we can just open it up But like random ideas we've been thinking about jamming on Would love to like just kind of bat them around Can I can I bring up an idea that I An app that I hear is trending in the New York area That I'd like Danny's opinion on Okay

Danny have you heard of a app called Partifle I'm going to put it in chat I just pulled it up to it This feels like a really good If Partifle turns out to be an app that you're working on, this is a really beautiful segue. What do you mean you haven't heard about Partifil? Partifle's the top app in the greater in the tri-state area. So what is it?

I've got the website up. It's getpartifal.com. P-A-R-T-I-F-U-L. A friend of mine told me about it. Basically, as you know, people are trying to get back into events now with COVID subsiding a little bit. And, you know, Facebook events used to be the sort of de facto way to organize around events. But, you know, Gen Z and millennials don't really use Facebook that much.

There's been a thousand attempts at social events. But this particular company, which basically is a mix of kind of like a Facebook type event, but you can also see photos from the party too. and they also have payments. So they manage the payments. So let's say I want to create a host party and I want to invite 50 of my friends and I want to charge $20.

They handle all the payments and then people can take photos and then they can share it. So it's like a group camera role. And it's starting to take off in like the 18 to 24 year old demographic in New York City. So curious if you think,

A, what do you think about the idea? B, what do you think about social events? Is this a big business? Or, you know, what do you think? I feel like I'm looking at their Instagram right now, and it's followed by a bunch of younger folks I know, and so that's always good signal. It's always negative signal if you go to a company's page

and it's followed by like old BCs. And you're just like, yeah, they have like a hype round going, but like no kids actually fuck with them, you know? So it's cool that like a bunch of young kids I know in New York that aren't necessarily so techie or like, you know, following them, you know? Yeah, and I mean, and also a killer idea, right? It's just like, what's the atomic unit? Like, truly, you don't need to build an app. It could be just a basic website that's super, that's easy to share in us and us, you know? I like the vibes on their,

their little, you know, on their page. Can you just hit on, when you just said that atomic unit thing, can you just explain what you mean by that? Well, I think typically, like, look, maybe this space also, I like, I've hacked into this space quite a bit of like how do you get people to hang out together in person a bunch people try to build everything right they think if i'm gonna make a party app i need to rebuild facebook pages which means a website with like sign in all like sorry like an app that like has all the stuff and like bam bam band load it's like no maybe what you all really need is just what will the end recipient see which you know if if you're if i'm invited you a party i'm probably doing it on text you know if i actually like you uh you know and and so yeah it's like okay

the atomic unit of what the the recipient is going to need here is just a link to click on, you know, because this other competitors just a flat text. It's like, Greg, I'm having a party tonight. Here's the address. Can you make it? Which is like a ton of stress to manage once that party is gets out of control, you know? And so, you know, I think it's cool. I think I've seen a bunch of folks try this where they like make really high party pages or even like really cool stories for Instagram or Snap to like make a really cool graphic that like has all the details on it. So I'd be like, look, they might be in a semi-crowded space, so it's really going to come down to the network, right?

Of like literally who or like what parties are on partiful, you know? Like, and if I'm them, like I saw they were messing out like the Dispo energy of like disposable cameras that like they send out in mailers, prepaid mailers. It's cool. If I'm them, I'd find a way to like maybe bankroll some really cool parties or unlock some really cool venues. But but also, hey, look, Godspeed to them. Like I'm talking like an old man who's like a haggard and like just, you know, would not touch this space with a, you know, with a 20 foot pole ever again.

But, but yeah, I wish them all the best though. So like truly, I'm like good she to them. Like, I hope I have it worked out. There's a couple of things that are interesting about it that you hit on. Like one, it's kind of like a, it's like an infrastructure rails bet on the like return to normal too. Like it's been so in vogue to do like remote this, hybrid that. we're all going to spend time apart. We're never going to live together.

And this is like the ultimate. Everyone's going to be back in New York City this summer and it's going to be lit. And we're going to create structure around that that enables people to go and kind of have the best experiences and then like document those incredible experiences. And I generally think that's really interesting. The other thing you said there at the end is like consumer social is such a graveyard. But if you do it and you win, you're like a god. you know, the people that have succeeded in consumer social,

even on a small scale and, like, reached exit and had that, you know, number one in the app store moment, it's incredible, I mean, it's got to be the most incredible thing in the world. Have they blown up or is it? It's still, like, young, like, you got it. It's actually, like, young, non-tech New Yorkers who are using it. But to me, like your intuition, like, that's a really good signal. Yeah.

Yeah. The, did you guys ever read? Do you know Sarah Table? She's benchmark. I think she's still at benchmark. Like an investor, writer, et cetera. And she had this amazing piece on like the hype cycle in consumer, which we should link to in the show notes that I thought was so good as a mental model for evaluating these things where basically if the hype cycle outpaces the kind of features and capabilities of the platform, you're dead. And you can almost never come back.

And I'm sure you have a long list of companies you've seen. where like it got so cool and everyone loved it. I mean, Clubhouse candidly is sort of like that where it was like so cool, so much energy, but it wasn't quite there yet from a product standpoint. And now they have a really tall task at coming back and being cool again when everyone has already left. And so I just like I think about that constantly when I look at these consumer social businesses of like, where are they on that hype cycle curve and are they building out enough so that when they do have their moment hit if they do, they're ready for it and can kind of capture it and also like have that value accrue to the platform and to the users.

And it's especially on Clubhouse. It's actually worth highlighting, you know, Twitter for the first time, like, like space is doing quite well, you know. And it's cool to see. Because remember like Vine era, like, it's cool to see Twitter finally be like, hey, like, we're going to take something awesome that, like, apply our network effects to it. And same for like, I'm looking at a particle. I'm like, okay, the switching cost, like, you could go. like I do wonder like truly if someone said me a part of full link versus another link like what's what you know like what you know like what's the real difference to me you know like like a party's a party if Greg tell me there's a party I'm like well Greg I'm in my guy like you know it's not like oh Greg I'm only in if you else in a part of full you know right like and so I do I do wonder like how you know how you know how how defensible some of this

stuff is but you know God speed yeah it has to be I mean app fatigue is very real and it has to be like incrementally multiple times as beneficial to use that new thing than it is to just do the janky equivalent with the incumbents. And like it's not 10% better. It's not 20% better. It literally has to be like multiples better in order for me to search. I remember Nicholas Reichen back. I don't know if you know him, but he started a company called Flow Water. And do you know flow water?

It's like a boxed water. Publicly traded company. probably in like, to every whole foods and stuff like that, doing really, really well. And he invited me, it's actually really interesting. He basically had the idea and then he invited like his like smartest friends for like to brainstorm the idea, which is something like is actually, I know. You got invited? But it was like I shouldn't.

I shouldn't. I shouldn't. I couldn't resent. Like the other guy who was there was like the president of Fiji water, you know? And I was like, I don't even know anything. about water. This is many years ago. And one of the things that we came out with was, and this all relate this back to particle, but one of the things that we came out of that weekend was if we could make bottled water, like walking around with like a plastic bottled water, like be a negative

signal to others, then flow water will win. So it was all about, you know that like crunchy sound, like crunch that you do when you, you know, with a bottle of water. Yeah, a bottle water. It was all about like making people feel bad that that crunch existed and it was about this environmentally friendly choice that you could make with flow water. And it got me thinking about like the signal that you have with all products. So if, you know, part of full, if sending a partifle link is a signal that like, you know, a certain signal, then there might be longevity there.

You just made me think of Greg, like this article from last year, actually almost like a year, like, yeah, literally last year about how, and Runyon, the, like, the cool swag is, like, designer water bottles. I remember reading this last year, thinking, this is ridiculous, and then, like, it turns out, like, there's a little bit of truth to this piece. And it's crazy to me what people buy for designer water bottle,

just the signal to other people. Like, yeah, I, you know, just riffing on that. Charzard hologram, man. You got to flex on the consumer product. I mean, not to bring it all together, but if they made a water bottle that had an original Charzard in it, I mean, that sounds like something mischief would make. That would be kind of, you know, or Blasley. My favorite, my favorite new sweatshirt that I have is a crew neck with a large pop-eye, the sailor man on the front, like, you know, with his muscles and doing his flexing. Throwing blazers make that one? It's, um, it's Noah, New York. Oh, yeah, Noah did.

the Popeye's like yeah they did the public collection and I was like the nostalgia effect in consumer is so real man like I want anything like that and I want to get my son's born in about a month and I was like guys can you make me a baby version of this so that I can be matching in my little pup eye crew neck with my son that would be the dopest thing ever that's been awesome or you could be a little can of spinach yeah yeah that's pretty good too um guys last couple minutes um let's just do a quick rundown of takeaways um um from the episode. I feel like we covered a lot.

I guess mine would be don't wear a pink blazer to a press conference. No, but in all seriousness with that one, you know, it's a sad story with Fast. It's also one where it's like if you're a B2B product company and you're kind of in the background, you know, match the hype cycle of what you're doing and, you know, the hype around what you're doing to what you need to be doing, right? It's like kind of an execution focused back office thing. And so there's a little bit of like red flags that go off with that. What else did you guys have?

I think, you know, maybe my takeaway is the way you tell your story is everything. And if you're going to do it to be flashy, do it consistently, you know. And the best of the best, whether or not it's Pokemon, find ways to do it and reinvent it continually. And you hope they do it, especially in this new era. Yeah. And then some of the ones that tell their story really poorly, history remembers too. And it's sad to see. My other big takeaway is be like Mike Posner, you know, be that honey badger that can walk

across the nation step by step day by day. And if a reptile, I don't know what happened who bit him, but even if a snake gets in your way, you will make it to the Pacific Ocean, you know, be Mike Posner. So that's my, I'm going to listen to cooler than me after this, you know. I think I'm going to do. I got, I've actually never heard the term storytelling engine. So just, you know, create your storytelling. engine and create your storytelling map to me is like biggest takeaway yeah i love that one actually and i

thought it it wove into almost everything we talked about actually the importance of storytelling as it relates to business building as and as it relates to creating durable value over the long term um so i love that dude this was awesome this was a blast thank you guys for uh for taking the time danny yeah i have to have you back on for more of these yeah thank you back on if people like danny as much as i like danny let us know and yeah get that like and if you don't and if you don't like him as much if you didn't like him on the show at detrin on Twitter that's best place to find him yeah yeah and if partiful wants to throw any parties now that we hooked it up I'm in New York man so hit me up wait I'm in New Orleans right now I'm flying in New York tonight we got to kick it maybe I'll send you a

oh it's kicking man I'm around man I'm not traveling I've got the baby due next month so I'm I'm around Greg you have to fly in a row of Raoul to put a partifle link Yeah, I'll look for it. You know, getpartifle.com slash where it happens. I want to thank our sponsors, getpartifle.com. If you sign up today, referral code DTren, you get one-eat for your party. So getpartifle.com.

Thank you. Exactly, exactly right. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Later. on it sip a cup of tea never let the world you go get in the borders and I'm a