The Startup Ideas Podcast - I can't believe he shared these $1M+/year startup ideas

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Join us for an engaging conversation with serial entrepreneur John Rush as we explore a variety of startup ideas and opportunities centered around directories and Micro-SaaS. In this episode, we delve into the rising indie hacker trend, the power of micro-influencers, and the potential of directories. John shares his proven framework and strategy for validating directories and discusses why micro-influencers are the most underpriced advertising channel in 2024. Whether you're looking to start your first million-dollar business or are curious about entrepreneurial strategies, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiration. Don’t miss this essential guide to launching a successful startup!🚀  My FREE 5 day email course to learn how to build a business of the future using the ACP funnel:https://www.communityempire.co/free-course🎯 To build your own portfolio businesses powered by community you might enjoy my membership.You'll get my full course with all my secrets on building businesses, peer-groups to keep you accountable, business ideas every single month and more!Spots are limited.https://www.communityempire.co/📬 Join my free newsletter to get weekly startup insights for free:https://www.gregisenberg.com70,000+ people are already subscribed.FIND ME ON SOCIALX/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergInstagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/FIND JOHN ON SOCIALX/Twitter: https://x.com/johnrushxLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnrushx/Episode Timestamp: 00:00 Intro01:44 First business: Micro-SaaS growth/marketing tools05:37 Second business: Startup validation as a service13:49 The influencer marketing landscape23:49 Why directories are underrated30:22 Third business: Localized directories35:35 Framework for finding/validating directory ideas

One key thing that we see there that it's easy to build stuff, but it's not easy to grow. 99% of the makers can build stuff, but only few can actually grow and sell and bring on customers. Most people actually fail right at the start. They just don't get any traction at all, like not even one sign up. And here you can solve that problem. I think people are willing to pay for that. So that's where I think the best ideas are right now. So this is the idea.

Like find keyword with high traffic. Search for it. If it doesn't have any directory on the first page of Google, go and build it. John Rush, Startup Ideas podcast. He's finally on. He's a fellow idea junkie. This guy is pushing out. I mean, what?

You have 20 businesses now? 24, yeah. Yeah. You've got John has 20 businesses that he's running. $2 million, $1,000, $1,000. million users that are B2B to see 100,000 plus users on B2B. Come on, this guy is one of us. Welcome. Welcome, my friend. Good to have you. Yeah, thanks for having me, Greg. All right. So what is on your mind right now? What sort of

ideas and trends would you be able to share with our audience? I see two trends now. So one trend is that they're more more solopreneurs. So there are a lot of people building a startup on the side, like people who work at a corporate job and they build it on a weekend and evening. And then there are people moving over to cost-effective countries, saving up some money and spending a year or two building out from there. Like it's called building public or in the hackers on Twitter.

And this movement was very small. Like it was very few people like three of two years ago, but I think it's doubling every year. Like I don't have the count, but my feeling that it's at least doubling and we'll keep growing just because we see that the access to building startups is really the best ever. Like you don't have to fundraise anymore. You don't have to find a co-founder. You don't have to find a team. You can just do everything on your own. Either you just code it if you're a coder or use no code.

no decoder. So that's kind of the trend I see. And then at the same time, I see how this trend can be utilized or how we can supply this trend. And like my my personal role is pretty much to build the tools for for this crowd so that they are kind of more powerful with fewer resources. And I think one key thing that we see we see there that it's easy to build stuff, but it's not easy to grow. Like that's kind of like 99% of the makers can build stuff, but only few can actually grow and sell and bring on customers. So that's where I think the best ideas are right now, like the low-hanging fruits, is building something around the growth and the marketing and set for and tools around that. Yeah. And people will pay for growth is the other thing that

people don't talk about, which is, you know, if you're able to generate customers for a startup, people are willing to basically share in the revenues. You know, it's a revenue split, basically, you know? So I think that what sort of prompt could you give to people in terms of, you know, how do you come up with an idea for, you know, in the space? I think the best way to come up with idea is to start with how would you sell it? So basically, don't build stuff, but just see what people are actually looking for. And for example, like I give precise examples from my own journey. Like I saw a lot of people asking about SEO, for example.

Like people were asking how to get backlinks, how to grow, how to, you know, grow the money rating, et cetera. So when you see those requests, usually you see people answering how to do it with like seven steps. And some makers kind of like that, just, you know, they read, these steps and they implement. But since most makers now are actually busy, like they have even full-time job or their side project, they want to save time. And then if you rub that little kind of list of actions into a tool, I call that microsass. And it just does one thing, but it does clear. It's clear what to expect. And it's easy to recommend. So like my game plan is this. like I want people to recommend my tool under those posts.

Like if somebody asks how to do X and then somebody comes there and says, I did that using this tool. And if tool just only does one thing, then it's easy for the user to remember this tool and to recommend that tool, comparing to the tools doing like a lot of things. Then it's hard to remember exactly where it does. You were telling me about a startup idea you had around wait lists. Can you talk more about that? Yeah, I think like it's really hard to start.

Like I remember in all times it was kind of easy to start. I thought it's like everybody has an idea. I thought like all founders have tons of ideas and they just kind of need funding or people to implement those. But now I see more and more people with the willingness to build something, but they don't know what to build. And usually they're just looking around for random stuff and they just kind of build that stuff. And usually that fails because like you promote this, you know, build community first and then the audience, then from audience you go to their needs and then to the product, right? And I had this idea that if someone actually does this job of coming up with ideas, validating the ideas with the users, and then collecting a wait list, maybe collecting

prepayments, and then you have the whole thing. Like there is an idea. There are like 100 people who want it, maybe five paid for it. Then you have, you know, all the risks, not all the risk, but a lot. a lot of the risk is gone now. And then if there is someone who can build stuff, they could actually buy this little, you know, like rough draft. It's like startup draft.

You can call it, right? You buy this startup draft and you can build it and you go from there, which is, Hey, everyone. If you're anything like me, you've got a ton of design work that you need. Websites, landing pages, emails, social assets, you name it. But you don't just want beautiful landing pages or beautiful websites. You want the stuff that's going to convert. You want the stuff that's going to actually drive value. That's where design scientists.com comes in. It's an agency that for one monthly price will do all your

design work, all your copywork, all your engineering and do stuff that actually scales your revenue. You don't need a designer. You need a design scientist. Let's go. Designscientist.com. I liked it so much. I invested in the business. I was surprised to see that most people actually fail right at the start.

They just don't get any traction at all, like not even one sign up. And here you can solve that problem. I think people are willing to pay for that. I think people are willing to pay. Like my economics there was that. basically people would pay up to $1,000 for that. And if that works and there is some word of mouth, people can pay like two or three or five K for that just to save this, you know,

first period they could skip. And it's pretty low cost to do this. So one could just make a machine that does all the steps. So the first step is coming up with idea. And if that's kind of your whole value proposition, coming up with ideas, then it's easier to put that on scale and to come up with a lot of ideas just by doing things like research on keywords, research on hot topics on Reddit, on Twitter, and et cetera.

So there are a lot of tools for that. And so you do one part of the job. You come up with ideas. And then the second stage is that you validate the ideas using technical methods. So you check their traffic on organic. you check the potential, you check the free domains on dot com, etc. So you do these simple things and that can be automated. You can actually make a little tool for yourself that automates this.

And then the stage number three is that you have to now validate with real people. And to do that, you create a wait list and you promote the wait list using either ads or you pay influencers. I actually like to pay influencers more than the ads because it's just cheaper. Like from my experience, it was like, you can pay $300 and have 100K views on the post now on Twitter.

So, and you do that. And then eventually, if your pipeline is 100 ideas coming at the beginning, and then like third ideas go to the next stage after this, you know, technical validation. And then out of those third ideas, maybe 10 ideas,

go to the next stage after being validated by people, like they joined the wait list, and then those 10 people, you explain them the value and eventually ask them to pay 70% discount, like a prepayment or something like that, and then let's say three ideas survive. So you have three out of 100,

and then you have these three ideas. You can sell basically now with the little audience, with the prepayments, with the idea itself. With a landing page, let's say you sell it for $3,000 or $2,000, and that's like $6,000. And to do all this, if there is a system for that and you built a little tool for that, to do all this, you would spend maybe $1,000 or $2,000. So the margins are pretty good and the margins get better and better as more ideas and things you do in the system. And everything can be automated, like literally everything. You can buy domains, their APIs.

You can make ads the same way. Landing pages can be generated using some builders that have APIs as well. So this can be turned into a tool and then basically just turn this tool on and it keeps doing the job. And even the ideas, it can find the ideas based on the same algorithm you do by hands. But now you can automate that as well using AI and using scraping. And now the system can do 1,000 ideas a month. and then you have 30 winning ideas and you sell them. Yeah, so this is a really smart idea because no one's doing it, you know?

Yeah, yeah. No one is doing it. And there, you know, of course there's marketplaces for startups like Acquire.com and Flippa, but also there's no marketplace for what you're describing, which is basically what you're describing is let us do all the work for validating a. startup idea, let us get you your first 100,000 customers. And then once the uncertainty is taken away, a lot of the uncertainty, we are going to hand that over to you, but you are going to pay us a premium for that. And it's kind of, it's a win-win situation because the person who's inheriting

that new product is they didn't have to go through all that hassle of going through the IDMAs, finding those customers, as you said, finding customers isn't easy. And now all of a sudden, they can buy something for cheap because if they would have went on one of the startup marketplaces or buy a startup, you know, that's established. That's going to be already too expensive. So this is like a cheaper version of that. Yeah. If you go to a startup place, marketplace and they check the prices there. So you would have no users and no revenue and no validation products for the same price just because they can build something there.

But it's not the part that's important. Like you can build stuff. Like building stuff is easy. It's the easiest part of the startup. And if there are users, prepayments and certain validation, then it's at least 10K. and that's way too expensive. So you glossed over something that I think is really important that I want to unpack a little bit. So you said you prefer influencers right now over ads and you're seeing rates like $300 for $100,000

views. Could you walk us through how you think about like how do you acquire these or how do you do these deals with these influencers? How do you reach out to them? what is your process to do this? Yeah, so there are a lot of influencers now a lot more than there were a year ago. I think AI has helped and the new Twitter algorithm has helped. So there are a lot of people doing that for leaving.

And I kind of, I was looking at that segment two years ago as well and I was checking the prices. And it was at least 1K and they would guarantee. maybe 30,000 views. And then I kept asking the same people price again every few months. And now it's way lower just because there are more people doing the same thing. There's competition and they drop the prices. So now it's $300. Somebody sees $100.

So I have some deals for $100 just because I buy often. So if somebody sells for $300 and you buy five times, they drop the price. And in my case, I have a lot of price. and I buy very often. I just reach out on Twitter and LinkedIn, just direct messages. Sometimes they reach out to me. It's more often that they reach out to me than I reach out to them. They offer their service.

So it's pretty simple to find, but usually they start with really high price. So you would get like, you know, 700 or 800 at the start. And you should just bargain that down to a few hundred. And that usually works. Even if they say no, so that's how it works for me. They say no, but then they come back four weeks after because they have this one week slot that's not taken. And 200 is better than nothing. So they say you can take it.

And if you have enough of influencers in your pipeline, in your list, then there's always a week open for one of them or a few of them. And you buy and then eventually when you bought five or ten times, you agree on. fixed price that's pretty low. And what I do now, I'm doing new things. So I'm experimenting and it's pretty interesting. So I pay influencers fixed amount every month. And it is similar to partnership like the football stars do with Nike and etc. But on a micro, on nanoscale.

And I pay the fixed money every month and they know it will be coming in whatever happens. And I commit for 12 months consolation. So I won't cancel unless I give the notice. So a lot of people like it. And I have certain amount of stuff I can do on their account. Like it can be a post, it can be part of the listicle, it can be a replay or et cetera. And now the price goes very low for me. There is some risk.

So they might just, you know, lose their engagement and reach. And then I still pay them. But it never really. really happens. I haven't seen influencer completely going out of the business, like some changes in the algorithm and they get back. And I actually plan

to launch a tool around that basically to make the whole not a marketplace, but a little like people say on Twitter, I'm reinventing the ad sense. But yeah, odds sense for micro startups.

Cool. Yeah, I like that. I think also, It sounds like you're doing a very manual process in terms of responding to influencers, reaching out to influencers. There's probably a lot of ways that you can automate a lot of it. And especially with AI, you know, you can just feed a list of here's my niche and here's like the 100 influencers and like hit them up every week with or every two weeks, you know, with an email saying, hey, are you willing to, your price is X,

willing to pay you half X. Here is one more idea. There's one more idea. I mean, every idea births another idea is the issue, is my constant issues. I'm constantly having, when I come up with an idea, I'm like, oh, that's a good idea, or that's a bad idea. But, you know, oh, what if we change this? And, oh, that could do this.

You know, so there's, that's the idea maze. That's why they call it the maze. And yeah, I'm definitely always in it. But yeah, I love that. I think a lot of people go towards ads as a, they're just, it's just the easiest way, you know, it's so simple to set up an ad campaign. But I do think that the micro influencers,

particularly when you're like reaching out to them, is there's a lot of alpha. there. Not sure how long that alpha is going to last, that arbitrage is going to last, because as more and more marketplaces come up, the prices I'd imagine end up becoming more visible. It's kind of like how real estate was. So today, in real estate, you know, you have the MLS. So you have basically a database of all the different, at least in North America. I don't know how it works in Turkey, but in North America you have this system and it's basically you can set up like alerts and you can see everything that's in the system.

But back in the day, when things weren't online, you know, you might have seen a building for sale and they listed it at 200,000 and it was really worth 600,000. but because they didn't have access to the data, it was wildly underpriced. It was a misprice asset. And I think you're starting to see the same thing with that kind of concept. We're in that era with influencers right now. Not everything is available.

Actually, we're in that area, specifically with micro-influencers. In influencers, mega-influencers, I feel like there's very little mispriced attention. But when it comes to smaller creators and smaller accounts, there is a ton of opportunity to get something that's worth $1,000 for $200. Yeah. I mean, I was just having this dilemma today. Like, I'm using social media a lot and I'm getting good at it. And my reach is growing. But at the same time, it's hurting my other part.

I can't build as much as I built years ago. And I see that happening with a lot of the other people. I posted that on Twitter and I had a lot of DMs from people saying, like, no, I have the same thing. And I think we're going to have a very huge epidemic of people, you know, turning full-time influencers because it's actually really hard to keep building and influencing. or creating content at the same time. And if that's happening, then the number of people who are on the market will be growing and it will be a lot of people there. So I actually think that even when we put this into a marketplace, like with real estate,

in the case of real estate, the number of houses isn't growing much, is growing very slow. But here I think it's nearly exponential growth of influencers. So I think it will be more similar to Spotify where actually the cost of music dropped almost to zero. You can listen to everything for like, you know, fixed price. I think it'll be similar thing here. But again, since we're competing and if I have an access to influencers and you have access to influencer and we both advertise our products, then, you know, we'll have the same access. But at least at the beginning, like people who utilize influencers, they will gain a lot. of momentum compared to those who don't.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I think the supply of, you know, creators and influencers is going up and up. And especially with, you know, faceless YouTube channels and faceless accounts in general, meme pages. If the ability to create content becomes a lot easier than more content exists, meaning more competition for eyeballs, which means that the monopoly that creators have become smaller and smaller.

That's why I think right now is such a beautiful time to be creating products. And I don't know, like I said, I don't know how long this lasts, but it's beautiful because, as you said, number one, it's cheaper now that it's cheaper than ever to create. there's a misprice influencer and creator opportunities. And number three, there's the ability to use AI to enhance support and systematize and automate a lot of content. So you have these three things. And it's just a beautiful, it's a beautiful time to be building. I want to segue to your and talk about ideas around directories,

because when I think of directories, to me, you're like the directory king. And I just want you to talk about, like, why are you building directories? And do you have any specific ideas that you can give away around directories? I had passion for directories for many years, I would say. And two years ago, I had a team and we were discussing directories. And I wanted to go full into that stuff. And my team said, like, look, this is an absolute stuff. Like, nobody does directors.

It was cool in 2017, but not anymore. And I was like, no, I don't think so. But I wasn't sure to actually, you know, follow my own idea. So I didn't start. And then I start later, like just last year. I think directories are underappreciated. Why? because when the quantity grows, the quality, the percentage-wise drops.

So the more things you can choose from, the harder areas to choose. And it means that people really want to go to places where the selection has been done for them, either selection or categorization or other type of enrichment of information so that they can pick the right tool or anything, the right item. And the amount of, like, the quantity on all the scales is growing. Like, there are like hundreds of CRM tools. There are hundreds of any kind of tools. And tomorrow it will be thousands and then it will be 10,000.

Like, it will just keep growing, right? Like, the old ones aren't being deleted. They stay too and the new ones are adding up on top. And that's same with the regular stuff as well. They're more coffee shops. There are more people selling stuff around. So everything is growing and it's harder and harder to choose. And I think the directories are here to solve that problem.

So people trust other people who have reason to trust them. And I think the directories made by people who show that they have certain experience in this field and you can trust their choice, you can trust their judgments, on this list, people will even pay for that. And we see that, like, I'm not charging for my directories. Like, people can use them, but I see a lot of people now starting to charge for good directories and people actually pay to have access to that data, right? Because they just want to save time on, you know, selecting out of 10,000 items and to have

just 100 the best being sent to them every week. Like, you know, even things like, for example, there is this guy. Pat, his name is Pat and he does Starter Story. You probably know him, anything you had a podcast with him. And like even that is directory in my head because it's a directory of stories about startups. And people pay him because he does the job of picking the best founders and putting their stores in, right? Yes. So I think like when I say directory, people always have this image of a list of boring items there.

Like, why would it be there like list of house or list of names? but it can be a list of anything. And people are willing to pay for that. And people are willing to be in that list. So you can both monetize, you know, the one side and the other side. And I think we are just starting with that. I think we are like just entering the directory age, as I call it. Because the AI made it even easier to create everything,

the information products and everything. And obviously the quality dropped a bit. So now people are even more interested. And the other thing that I'm thinking about that Moss don't think about is that AI will have to figure out how to find the best items to recommend to people. And what are they using now? They're using Reddit. They're using other kind of places. And for me, Reddit is a directory partly is a director as well.

Like for AI, it looks like a directory. It's a place where people with reputation, you know, order things. They can vote for them. And then there is a list ordered by votes. And that's a directory too. So I think the directories will eventually be really important for AI. And the best directories will be chosen by AI to be used for the search results. And if that happens to your director,

directory, that means that you have huge power and people are willing to pay to be there as well, right? Yeah. So people are bought in. I mean, I don't know how you listen to that and aren't bought in. I think like the idea around people, there's so much uncertainty and so much content that people just want a trusted source makes sense to, I think, a lot of people. And, you know, we talk about directories like, oh yeah, it's been around for the last few years. And it's,

but like the reality is, you know, since the internet existed, directories have been a thing, you know, organizing information. From the first day. It's not the first day. And you have like, you have publicly traded, you know, companies, uh, Angie, which was formerly called Angie's list, I mean, does, you know, billion, billion three in revenue. You know, so big businesses that basically are just databases of curated, trusted people and people are willing to pay for it. So that's what I, that's what I like about directories too. I mean, it's proven, it's trusted. And you said the magic words, which is, you know, it started to get uncool. Something started to get uncool. What does that mean if you're listening to this? It means

if it's uncool, there's arbitrage. There's opportunity to come in and find something that's mispriced and do something. So yes. Now, we're bought in. What directory ideas do you have for us? There are two types of directory ideas I have in mind and I have in my pipeline. So one is local directories. So basically, there are a lot of directors in English. I would say most of them are in English. And there are very few on local languages. So like, it's really hard to find directory of, you know, SaaS tools made by French people in France, right? For example. So I think moving forward, the quantity will be so large that directories will have to find more filters. because like now people don't want to go to a place where they have everything.

They rather want to go to a place that has fewer items than too many. So one way to do this is find a directory that's working really well in U.S. And just find a country where there is no directory like that. And it's easy to find. You just Google, like the best thing about director is that the whole research is in Google. You just search for something. And if you don't see good result on the top, you go for it. And so that's how you test it.

You find good directories in bigger countries and you search in the other language, like let's say in French. And if it doesn't exist on top of the Google results, you build it. And then, of course, you have to solve the reputation problem, et cetera. but usually it is solvable over time. Like if you work on directory, you start learning the topic, you start learning the tools, you start making podcasts with founders of all these tools, for example. There are a lot of easy ways to actually gain reputation within segment. So is the idea there, I'm going to go find validated English directories,

and then I'm just going to apply, you know, my, let's say French, I'm going to apply my language French to it and then and then localize it to, for example, France and Canada and Senegal and French-speaking countries. Is that the idea? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because there are a lot of people who don't speak English in those countries, actually most people don't. And people say, like, those who don't speak English, they are not.

in tech, it's not true. A lot of people speak only French or prefer French and they build within the air and they have large market too. And eventually at some point they go international when things go bigger, right? Yeah. I mean, you're talking to a guy. I mean, I'm literally sitting in a place where 94% of the people here where I'm sitting speak French as their first language.

So, you know, there are. there are, you know, the American POV is always like, focus on America. It's such a big market. And it's true in a lot of ways. Like, it is such a big market. And it's, it's an amazing market. But that doesn't mean that they're with, with what's happening around the, the, the, the, the, the east to create directories and, and creating new tools. And like we talked, about audiences and stuff like that, why not just take something that's working and apply it to a local market, I think it makes a lot of sense. And again, this is not something that we're reinventing. Do you remember Rocket Internet? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Rocket internet. Yeah, right? Those guys in Germany that basically would look at popular Silicon Valley startups that raised a ton of money and be like, okay, great, eBay is popping off in the U.S. Let's go create the eBay for, you know, North Africa.

Yeah. And they, it was a brilliant idea. I think their downfall a little bit was that they went public. And, but like the idea of like rocket internet, not, you know, cash flowing makes a lot of sense. I think like that's a huge idea. So this is a really, John, I hope you know, you're, you're giving. a really good idea over here.

I mean, the best part about the rectoris is that that most people don't appreciate is that it's very little tech. So it's easy. The building part is really easy. Like in the rocket internet, they had to put a lot of money into that. And here it's like if there's one thing you could do where you don't need money, but you need your own time, that's a directory, right? because it needs time to make the quality of the content good and promote it,

but it doesn't need time for building it, which is like it just needs a little bit of time comparing to SaaS tools. Absolutely. So you were saying before I got really excited about that idea that you had a second idea around directories. What was that? Yeah. So the second idea about directories is that it's not particular directory.

is just the method that I apply myself very often. And it just works. I mean, it works so well that I feel it can't be true that it just works almost every time. It's when you search for keyword on Google Ad Planner, it's a free tool. Like it's ads. Dot keyword planner or something like that.

And you search for keywords around random topics. and then you find a keyword that has high traffic and then you search for that keyword on Google and only block posts are shown on the top, that's the idea. Like you just build a directory around that and Google really likes directories and eventually you will get to the top too.

So it is, it's kind of soulless, so you don't pick the idea that you like, but you can actually pick the ideas you like and test them, for traffic. But overall, when I do that, I don't use any of my own judgment because then I tend to pick the idea that's not so good. It has little traffic, but I think it's good. And my intuition never works. And that's the thing. Like I think with director ideas, intuition always fails because when you test, it turns out the opposite. So in my directories, all directors

I had high hopes for, they failed. And those I didn't have hopes for succeeded. And I think the reason is that if I have high hopes, a lot of people also have high hopes for the same directory, because it's kind of, I'm an average of the society. And whatever I think, most likely a lot of other people think. So we can all build the same thing. So this is the idea. Just use technical method, like find keyword with high traffic, search for it. If it doesn't have any directory on the first page of Google, go and build it.

And you can do that for 10 ideas. Like it's cheap, it's fast. You do it for 1080s and then you drop seven and you push harder on three. How do you come up with the keywords? Like how do you know what are the keywords that are highly trafficked? Yeah. So it is, it's boring. I ask chat GBT.

So what would be an example prompt that you know, that you do use with chat GBT? I give you the real one. So I want to have a directory. So usually I launch directories to help my other SaaS tools to bring traffic. And then I had this couple of dev tools, like you have Devhunt and flood UI. And I want to drive traffic there. So I want to build a directory for developers. So I just asked Chajibouti, I said, I have this and this.

And I want this audience. Give me 20 ideas. And gave me 20 ideas. And then I just tested all 20 and one was great. Right. So it's a, it feels like, like a steel. Like, you know, it feels a bit boring. Like sometimes it's too easy.

And, but it works. It works. I think a lot of the times founders think that it's, things have to be hard. I think things don't have to be hard, but you have to do the right things. But do you do right things? It's hard, right? So that's kind of the thing. Well, I think what it is is great entrepreneurs bet heavily when the odds are stacked in their favor. So what you're doing, the process that you're mentioning is pretty methodical. Like there's a lot of steps associated with it. So it's less creative in that sense. It's less I'm taking a blank canvas and I'm drawing something beautiful and putting it out into the world.

And it's more like a science experiment. But what it does is when you use things like Google Keyword Planner, is it reduces your risk and allows you to build something when the odds are stacked in your favor. You know that with a certain percent of probability that this, is going to hit some level of success. And of course it's going to be a numbers game. So just like, you know, betting, it's just you have to, I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think that you're going to hit chat, chat, APT, what are high search terms directory stuff. And then you pick the first one and it happens to, you know, work. I think this is

something that you have to apply a portfolio approach, try multiple. of them. But I think the key is you're reducing risk along the way. John, we're going to end it here because there's just too much. There's too much goodness.

I want people to check out John at his ex account. He just posts every single day what he's learning in real time building his 20 businesses is at John Rush X. And he's also got a list of

all his many projects, John rush.me, check it out. And it's inspiring because I think the model that you're applying is really the future of building startup.

So thank you for sharing it with us. Yeah. Thanks for having me here. Of course. Later. Thanks, everyone.