The Startup Ideas Podcast - Info Diets, OG Content Creators, and 7-year Lifespans

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Today Greg is joined by Julien Smith, the CEO of Practice, bestselling author of The Flinch, and executive coach. In this episode, Greg and Julien talk about the podcasts, books, and x/twitter feeds that entrepreneurs should be reading and following. They also explore why you should think of your life in seven-year increments. ►►Subscribe to Greg's weekly newsletter for insights on community,creators and commerce.You'll also find out when new and exclusiveepisodes come out from Where it Happens. And it's totally free.https://latecheckout.substack.comFIND ME ON SOCIAL:Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergInstagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@gregisenbergaLINKS FOR THIS EPISODE:Production Team:https://www.bigoceanpodcasting.comJulien Smithhttps://twitter.com/julienhttp://juliensmith.com/SHOW NOTES:0:00 - Intro7:27 - The Silicon Valley info diet13:47 - The network multiplier of high quality content20:35 - How to play the content long-game30:56 - Think of you life in 7-year increments

Julian Smith, friend of the pod, New York Times bestselling author, probably raised a quarter billion dollars. You can't see it right now, but has more tattoos than I think I have hair. Welcome back to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it, and I'm a fan of the show. The VC market is hurting right now, especially with B2B businesses. You know, you have enterprises just cutting back spend on things. like software. So I imagine the next wave will be B to C companies. Once consumers start

tightening, they're going to be the ones that are hurting. It's already happening in Canada. I saw an article today saying that the GDP of Canada was a surprise and it's actually declining or it's contracting. As long as you don't run out of cash, you're doing something smart. you've extended your runway because you're in Canada. One U.S. dollar is 135 Canadian. So basically, if you raised $10 million, you now have $13.5 million. So the thing I'm thinking about, and I'm curious your opinion, is how has hiring internationally help you run your business?

First of all, I knew from the get-go, even in 2019 when we were first ideating on this thing, that we want to do at remote. Keep in mind, my last company was an office space technology company. And so because of that, like, there was no chance it was not going to be offices. And there was no chance it was not going to be an in-person business. And the world was different in 2014 to 18 when I was CEO of that thing. But I was really clear on my boundaries. So my boundaries were I cannot be in an office every day. And there were a lot of things I didn't like about that. And so I shifted, like some of our friends that you know, Greg, right, into a remote business that have different structure

that are really like, that are really results oriented environments. And where people are hired based on talent, not really based on their geography necessarily, or in some cases, not even necessarily based on a common native language. And we have gotten together in the past either regionally or globally, like all as a team.

And that really helps people jealous, together. But, you know, if people like on the internet, like Keith Roboy and like other people are telling me to go back to the office, legitimately, like, I don't know if maybe they think I'm a shitty operator. I don't know. I don't think that I'm a shitty operator. Clearly I've proven something, though, at some point. And so if they, if they want me to return to the office, I would legitimately not be a CEO again. There is a Canada-based portion of my business, But over time, there was a set of hiring that happened internationally. And I would say it does present its own challenges, but it is absolutely worthwhile.

The way that we've made it work is, and the thing that's really mattered for us, is we have driven towards a set of leaders in the business that are Silicon Valley oriented leaders. Like, I think I've proven myself out as a CEO, having raised what I did and built the kind of business that I did, that even though I'm not in the Silicon Valley, I'm Silicon Valley oriented. Is the idea that Silicon Valley-esque people are teaching non-Silican Valley-esque people to be more Silicon Valley-esque? Yeah. So the first thing is, like, culture is absorbed.

Like, if you have, I mean, you were inside of, it may be, in your cases, it was a little unusual. Like, you were inside WeWork. I don't know how you would talk about that culture, but I bet there's a bunch of things we could do a reverse interview. You were inside sort of adjacent to stumble upon, which is an early Silicon Valley success. And you were, I mean, you lived in San Francisco for a while. So you know what it's like to run a business in Silicon Valley.

Now, a lot of people in Canada, and I have some coaching clients in Canada to give you a sense, right? Like they think they know what it's like to run a Silicon Valley business. Truly, they do not. They don't know what it's like to work at, to have worked at PayPal in 1999. As the economy was crashing and they were like, we have so much fraud, we don't even know what to do. They don't know what product market fit feels like. And then you can ask people the question, do you have product market fit in their business?

And they'll be like, I think so. And you'll be like, you do not. not have it because it is such a crazy clear feeling when you have it that you're like, oh shit, this is it. All right. Most people feel like they understand what working at a startup is and what it's like to work in a tech company. But if they haven't been in one in Silicon Valley, they really don't know what it feels

like and they don't really know how to work that hard. And I don't know what product market fit feels like. So they're kind of aping it without ever really having been in it before. Yeah, where my head's at is if that culture and that way of thinking is a multiplier on productivity and high quality work. I'm just wondering beyond having great leaders and managers, how else could you, accelerate your team you know when someone gets onboarded to your

team do you like set them up with five podcasts that they should listen to you know do you say like here's here's a Twitter account with you know that's following 200 people that I think you would really benefit from yeah it's interesting that you say that it's true that sometimes when you hire people

and they're inside of this sort of content bubble of tech, that they start with a set of standards. And that if they don't, like if they don't come from that world, that you kind of have to, you educate as you build. And if you're educating as you build, here's the sort of way that that manifests itself. You have to be like, hey, here's why we're going after this type of customer, because this type of customer will do X for this type of business.

and we could bring that to 100 million people or to $100 million in revenue. But most people that have not gotten a business to product market fit, maybe that had revenue, doesn't have to have been SaaS, could be anything. Like, they have a slice of understanding of what business is. And I know that that's certainly true for me. Like, when I started Breeder, like, did I understand? that I was really starting a lower margin business? Not really.

I didn't quite get it. I was just like, there's a product and we're going to build it, and I know a lot of people are going to like it. I was right about a lot of things. But at the core of it, there were a set of misunderstandings about business that I did not have.

So Sam Altman, although when we think of Silicon Valley, we think of someone like Sam Altman now, he's a New Yorker. you know he's a new yorker who moved to silicon valley but he did surround himself with the silicon valley you know people right so i think you don't need to be from silicon valley to to to get that as long as you absorb it and my thesis is you know with so many podcasts and YouTube channels and so many people now tweeting, you know, you're the average of the five friends

you spend the most time with, but you're also the average of the five podcasts you consume. And I think that a really underrated way and a cheaper way, frankly, than moving to San Francisco or the Flat Iron District in New York City is you just make. it a point to load up with content and from these people. And I'm not talking about like listening to the all-in podcast, which is like obviously a great podcast, but it's, you know, a big podcast. I'm saying like, what is the niche podcast that you should be listening to that can really up-level you that has a lot of these, a lot of this DNA? So, for example, you know, Lenny Richitsky's podcast, who he spent, you know, 10 years in Silicon Valley, and he's interviewing all these people. And he talks to product managers.

And it's very specific to product managers. Yeah, it's, you're right that you need to be absorbing all the time. You know, it's funny when I was a writer writing books for a living and doing talks in the social media space, like way before I was ever a tech CEO. convinced at the time, by the way, that I couldn't become a tech CEO. And Greg, you were instrumental in convincing me that I could become one. So thanks for that. I owe you one. At the time, I read fucking shit tons.

And my bookcase to the left of me here is actually filled with, in a lot of cases, garbage books, but it kind of didn't matter. I kept absorbing them and absorbing and absorbing and absorbing. I was nonstop learning. And I will say it's been a great challenge of me. mine and audio really does help. It helps a lot. But it's a great challenge of mine to while working and being a operator of a business to also be absorbing as much as possible. Audio, you're right, is the right way to do it for me because you just can't absorb as quickly

and you can't absorb passively. Like, I think I'm reading, listening to three audio books at the moment that are either classic or that are important, kind of, tech books about certain things, in some case sales, in some case operations and other things like that, like books that are known to people, Phoenix Project, eat their lunch, high output management, these types of books that you could just sort of passively absorb that those are books about how tech happens. And you're right. You can, you ideally, you ideally, you absorb it on the cheap, the part that you cannot absorb on the cheap, and both you and I know this actually, and we do it. So it's important to actually, to say it, is that it cannot create

network for you. And so if you're at zero network, I got this question last week from someone. It'd be like, how did you meet the people at Andreessen Horowitz? Well, holy shit. I met Andrew Chan, my partner today at Andrews Norowitz. In 2014, we did a deal in 2021, eight years later on a separate business. Like, networks are built and you become a trusted person inside of those networks over time, not immediately. So there's a funny thing now where we can go remote and my company can become good enough, have a great series A. And I could walk into whatever, fucking Sequoia Capital or whatever, right? I certainly get a meeting at Sequoia Capital.

And I can certainly take that meeting and they absolutely will consider it. But it wouldn't have been the case in the same way 10 years ago. So what happened then? Track record. And you don't get a track record remotely. And by the way, track record can involve failures, but it has to involve smart failures. And also network being in the same places as all these people. Being on podcasts, right, is one way, actually, because people consume it.

Also, to be at parties with people and to go to these stupid retreats, like not lots of them are douchy, but on occasion you are able to meet people this way. And so, like, the networking part, and I hesitate to call it that, it's really just building a set of people that have an alignment with you and that you know them and they're smart and one way or another, either you're going to work with them or you'll invest in their company or they'll invest in yours or you'll spend time together somewhere.

Who knows, right? Like they put you very tightly into an ecosystem. And if you're in one, you will go the same direction as the ecosystem goes. An ironic thing about being a CEO coach that I didn't expect is that I get access to companies as they are succeeding, and in some cases I get a chance to invest in them.

And because of that, I'm like, oh, wow, here's this company that I would never have seen otherwise, you know, that I get a chance to be a part of, and I get a chance to be able to be involved with and help have the founders succeed. Like, you need to be in these conversations all the time. It's not easy to do that, and you can't buy, eye your way in.

So one school of thought is in order to get into these rooms, you have to get on a plane and meet these people. Another school of thought is you create high quality content and you attract people. You are an interesting person in this case because you're like OG blogger. OG podcast person. And when I say that, I mean like, I'm on your blog right now. When Facebook likes were a thing and people were embedding Facebook likes on blog posts, you were getting tens of thousands of likes onto your blog post pretty regularly. Like you were breaking the internet back then. And I did. I did a few times. That's true. Yeah. And, you know, when I look at your post,

You know, you had some posts, you know, I'm looking like 2013, 2013. And then you went to one post in 2014. Then you had two posts in 2020. Then you had one post in 2021. Then you had two posts in 2023. So interestingly enough, you did the content thing before content was cool. You had a mega popular blog. On the backs of that, you created New York Times bestselling books.

And then you sort of retreated. from content. Yeah. And actually, I lasted longer than most people. I think there's a thousand blog posts on my blog over a period of what's got to be 10 years or more. And it was my job for a long time. And so there's two paths, I think.

There's two paths to making content and having it continuously grow. So one of them is be an operator and be able to hire someone. So that's definitely one way. Like, for example, the way I used to do it at Breeder, I don't do it here today, but the way I used to do it at Breeder is I would have a person on my marketing team and I would reach out to them. I'd be like, hey, we're going to build a Tweetstorm and I would be like, and I'm going to say it to you and then you can write it down and you can make it into a Tweetstorm.

Let me know when you've got it, put it into a Google Drive doc. And then I'll publish it once I've kind of consent. and agreed that my ideas have been well presented by you. Right. So now all that I did is the same thing that I did here, which is to talk about my opinions and my experience. And it involved sitting down in front of content in the same way. What I discovered was me being the engine meant that I was the,

actually I will say I was the engine and the gas. This is actually, this is an expression from Emily, Emily, my God, I forget her last name. It'll come to me. From a marketing standpoint, you need both engine and gas to build something in marketing. And if you are the engine, the engine is the mechanics of the marketing and how it happens. If you are the gas, you know, something is being pumped into it and through it. and it could be contact, for example. But when you're the engine and you're the fuel at the same time, it's super easy for you to burn out.

I think it's the real you on this podcast. That's like not fakable. But certainly someone could ghost write a book and they would never have really written a whole word of it. And so the engine is their brand and their distribution mechanism, But the gas, the fuel, is not really them in the first place. And I will say that in the early days of content, going back to your point, all of us that were trying to do this, Chris Brogan, my co-author on trust agents when I published in 2009,

a bunch of us did not have proper engines around our content. This is actually a huge lesson. Some of us did. Gary Vaynerchuk is also from that era. but Gary had a machine around him and he had a clear business model. At the time, it was actually selling wine at the very beginning. Then it was he was the social media person and he built a social media agency. So now he's got the machine, the engine around him and he has a clear business that he's trying to drive.

Now, you can do that, but like, you know, the way that I think about the people that are making mistakes in the space. It's my perspective, by the way. It's like, you may remember, lots of people remember a nerd writer from YouTube. Used to be a huge, amazing account with tons of visitors and viewership. Got too philosophical, started writing books, could not keep going at it,

and didn't make it commercial enough. By the way, I don't know them. I'll just give you my perspective. versus a Mr. Beast that is very clearly like, I'm, I just don't care. Like, I will find whatever is the most compelling thing. I have no aesthetic sensibilities, you know. I'm literally just going to make a little thing that people love clicking on. And it works.

And it works essentially to infinity. So, and by the way, Gary did a version of that. And Gary is from that time and so on. So the big book. that changed my perspective on this was a book called The Big Switch that I read a really, really long time ago. And it really made clear

that either someone was in the engine or someone owned the engine. So everyone is building little businesses inside of Twitter or Instagram or TikTok or something. And they're building these little micro businesses. And for a long time, my focus was, building a little micro business that had followers. And you could build what we didn't call it them,

but like an influencer-based business. Now my focus is build a machine that is a real business that can get to fucking shit tons of revenue with a really big set of users. And the result is you become influential as a result of your success. Quick interruption from me. If you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

you're getting any value. You need to come to YouTube and subscribe to the Where It Happens podcast YouTube channel. I promise you the experience is richer, more interesting. So if you're getting any value, just stop what you're doing. Open up the YouTube app. Go to the website and press subscribe at where it happened. on YouTube. And if you're watching this on YouTube and you haven't subscribed, what are you doing? Go press subscribe. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of the show. So where are you with respect to

content for Julian Smith? Like it feels like you're slowly getting back into it. Now you have a podcast that you've been doing. I saw a couple of 2023 blog posts. You change your profile picture from some like strange lizard-looking person to something a bit more serious. Where are we at? You're right. You're noticing that I am taking it more seriously because I am taking it more seriously. I felt that I feel for the first time like everything is aligned properly. One of the big struggles that I experienced at the time was the voice that I had built on my blog

and how difficult it was to align with being a CEO of a 250-person business that was accidentally ended up selling fractional office space. Right. Like it was just so incongruent with what my brand was. And that's because they were really built by accident. I'll tell you what that gave me is it gave me a confidence that I wasn't a fluke success and that I wasn't a fucking idiot. Because I was like, okay, well, clearly I had a voice on from a blog standpoint

and a book standpoint that resonated with people. Oh, and I also was able to build a business and raise a lot of money. I was like, okay, I'm not a like, and so my imposter syndrome didn't exactly vanish, but I definitely like diminished. I was like, oh, okay, I'm qualified for like the first time, probably. But nonetheless, that incongruence, that, that, that, contradiction between blogger, writer, Julian, and CEO Julian really did exist. And I didn't deliberately align it, but I did kind of accidentally align it when I made a

decision about what next business I want to run. And I said, okay, well, what are the few things that I really cared about and I've always cared about? And I knew that when you run a, especially a business that you're trying to get somewhere big, it's going to take you 10 years. I think about our friend Rob, who's been running a business for his business for, I want to say 12 years or something. And it's now really successful. But at the very beginning, like everybody else, you know, it's like a zigzag. You just don't know where it's going to go. You get to the other side. You're like, wow, that was impressive. It takes a long time to build something that lasts and that's really powerful. So I thought, what are the things that I can build that I really have

always cared about and that I will always care about. And a few things came to my mind. One of them was self-development and I always cared about self-development. Another one was I always cared about the little guy. And that's always been a theme throughout everything that I've done. And then another one which is not really related, but I thought about is I always really care about games. I'm a huge board game person. I'm a huge Dungeons and Dragons and RPG person, less so computer games or console games. But still, games were always at the center of how I spend my time. So I was like, well, what do I care about today that I'm going to care about in five years? There's only a few things that have been in that realm. So I said, well, I got to build something around those

things. And that's why we started at practice building around coaches and solopreneurs. Now we're way past that. Now we're like coaches, tutored a lot of tutor customers, teams of these people, virtual assistance, like all these other solopreneurs, individual businesses, and team businesses. So all of those things align themselves. And then I had a coaching practice, which I've had for, I want to say three years, four years. And I still have some clients from back then. And so everything has kind of aligned itself in a way that it wasn't before. Now I run a business working for the little guy. I have a coaching practice. which is self-development-oriented.

I have tons of writing that I've done that is self-development-oriented, if you remember from the blog back in the day. And all of my books were about that stuff. I'm 44 today. I feel like for the first time, everything is kind of aligned. What you're saying is,

in order to come up with a long-term content strategy, you have to look inward and really, be honest with yourself to basically find what are the buckets that I really care about that I want to be creating content in 5, 10, 15, 20 years. So in order to look, in order to go outward, you have to look inward. Do you have any advice for people who want to, you know, who don't want to wait until their 40s maybe or 50s or 60s and who want to get going right away?

I'm super convinced that the things I cared about in my 20s, I also cared about when I was 12. You're going to find new things, right? Like, you're really into sports. In your teens, you might be really into baseball like I was. In your 30s, you might be really into basketball. Nonetheless, you're into sports, and you've always been into sports. Here's what your path needs to contain. And these are really broad checklist items.

one of them is hopefully it's something that you cared about and have cared about for a really long time. And so if so, you're probably never going to stop caring about it in the same way. Your view will change. You might get more cynical about the basic parts of it. You might, you're sophisticated, I wrote a book to Flint in 2013 that really took off. Almost everything from there, I'm still very proud of that book. But there's some things in that book where I was like, I don't know about that. But I still am really happy with that book, the influence I had with those people.

And I'm not writing a sequel to that book. But like, I still care about those things. I'm never going to stop caring about those things. So there are through lines in your life that you have had forever. And it is really easy if you align your life with those things. Somehow, that's really challenging sometimes because sometimes those things don't have a commercial orientation. So you're actually going to be like, oh, I legitimately did think about how could I build a games company in some way. I thought about this for a while in 2018, 2019.

I found that it would be difficult, but I definitely considered it because I knew the time would just pass. and that the people that I would work with would just be so easy to work with and they would be my type of people. I just knew that. And so it's almost like acknowledging who am I and what do I care about? And how do I attach that to things that are going on in 2023? And if you do that, you probably have years of content. By the way, some of them are so niche.

I was watching such a stupid thing to watch them. I'm embarrassed to say this. But I don't consume a ton of short form. I consume tons of long form videos. So I'm on YouTube a lot. And I was consuming, I think, a two hour long history of Street Fighter 2. And the guy who has this channel, that's literally all that he makes is history of video game worlds. And people love it. And it's really clear that this guy also. really loves it. Is that big? No. Does it need to be? Who gives this shit? He loves it. His millions of people that watch his videos love it. And it'll expand as it goes on. Way better than trying to follow some trend that you only have a vague understanding of.

And the truth is, I think he could build a pretty big business around it. Like he could, well, first you can do a paid community. He can do info products. He can create his own games. He could, there's a lot of ways, you know, if he was interested. I don't know if this is just like a side hobby or just a hobby for him. But if, you know, he now has the opportunity to make that decision. And how cool is that? One of the cool things about building audiences, I think, is that it allows you to

not have to invest tons of money and time into, into, into learning about a space. So, for example, if you're passionate about food and opening up a restaurant one day, well, there's like a path that you can take, right? So you could create a food truck, which is kind of like the MVP of, you know, building a restaurant. But what's even more MVP than that

is maybe like creating a YouTube channel that interviews people in the kitchen at different restaurants and just like interviewing them and learning with them and seeing if other people might be interested in that. And then all of a sudden you're building this audience with you and then you build this community and then you could potentially, you know, hey, you trust me because I know all the cool restaurants or interesting restaurants and chefs in my city.

Now I have my own restaurant or my own food truck come and visit. So I think the coolest part about audience and content is the doors that opened and how cheap it is to actually do. So that's where it was coming from when I was like, dude, why aren't you creating more content? And I understand how much work it takes. But I also think that you don't need to be a full-time creator. You can be a part-time creator.

And you could spend one hour a week or two hours a week and still create a niche audience. You are right. I will say, as a thought, though, that I really believe in the Gary Vaynerchuk kind of method, which is it's got to happen like an hour a day. That's my perspective. Just having written a thousand blog posts,

having written over three books, definitely, and discarded many words along the way, you don't figure it out without sitting in front of a page or whatever your version of that is, like some editing software suite, like whatever it is, you actually don't figure it out unless your hands are just in it all the time. And so you can't get really, really good at something. I don't know if it's 10,000 hours. It could be anything. But whatever it is, like you don't get really, really good at it by being a hobbyist unless you're a hobbyist for 30 years, right?

If you want to get really good at something, like being a CEO is a crazy example. You know, being a CEO is a wild job. And being a founder is a crazy job. Like, I would never encourage anyone to do this unless I knew that they had to do it because it's psycho as a way to run your life. But I don't have a choice. It's built into me. It's probably built into you. So I cannot learn that part-time.

I cannot understand the influence of, tradeoffs in a business part-time. I cannot understand the consequence of roadmap decisions part-time. So I'm a big believer in doing a couple things and doing them well because you really get compound effects, like hugely compounding effects. And committing to them, there's this comic where they take, talk about every seven years you get to live a new life. And I've found that to be true. So from 18 to about 24, I built a career doing just not much of a career building

random office stuff. I didn't really have a career, nor did I go to college and graduate. From 24 to 31, I was a content person. And as a content person, I built a a successful content business, right, that included New York Times bestselling books, viral other books and PDFs, viral blog posts by gigantic standards that everybody talked about. And then at 31 and you were there, ish, 33, really, I started a venture back business. And my, that course began again. And so that course was started in 2013, 2012.

and continues today. And then three, four years ago, so again, a seven-year arc, I started a coaching practice. And now I'm an executive coach, which is not something that probably I could have done. My father was a coach, and I could not have done that probably while he was alive. It would have been too weird. But now I can do it. And so it's like a whole other arc. So there's so many different arcs that people go on in their live.

And they get so many different shots on goal of things that they've, really can do. So you shouldn't do things for like a year or two year part time. You really should go at them super, super hard and put your soul in. You should work so hard that you die a little bit working on this thing, I find. When you really put your heart and soul into something, Seth Godin taught me this. When he was editing Flinch, the book, he said to me, you're going to have, you said a few things I remember. One is, you're only going to have one shot ever to write a book this visceral. That's what he said. I said, okay. And I took that really seriously because Seth Gordon was like, I like my idol a little bit and my mentor. And another thing that he said was, do you want to write a book

that's good or do you want to be in awe of what you have written? And I was like, holy shit, I got off the phone. I was screaming out there in the world after hanging up the phone or whatever the fuck happened with him, being like, I don't know how to do that. But I did work that hard. at that thing and that's why that book had that reach that it did. All I know is I'm like ready to run through a brick wall right now. That's all I know. Yeah. Yeah, I feel very, I feel very inspired. I feel I agree with you on the every person lives so many lifetimes and every seven years that there is a new life. And I almost think that and actually I don't almost think I think that not only should you reflect on that and be like, wow, I'm entering a new chapter. But also get yourself a physical

item that you can wear. Or maybe for you, it's like a tattoo. Maybe it's like a gold watch. Who knows? A ring, a bracelet, something that commemorates that you've entered into this new place so that every time you see it, you're reminded of it. It's true. I have some awards from my bookwriting days that I still look on fondly today. It doesn't mean that they're in the center of my fucking house. But like, when I look at them, I'm like, oh, yeah, it reminds you. And you do need to be reminded because the arc of your life is a long one, hopefully. Before we head out, what's one book recommendation that you can give to people that is a must read based on this conversation?

I'm just going to give a few things that I find a really interesting relative to our conversation. We have a mutual friend, Dario Melly, who's one of the founders of Hootsweet. He got me into these books by David Gran. One of them is being made into a Martin Scorsese movie, I think, Killers of the Flower Woman. But he has another book about obsession. is books are always kind of about obsession. And the book that really influenced me that I just finished is Lost City of Z, which is about the exploration of the Amazon and trying to find El Dorado in the early 1920s.

And it is an exploration of obsession and how, what obsession really looks like. And also the consequences of it. So that's a really powerful book. I'll take it. Where could people follow Julian and, and your content and learn more about practice. Practice is at practice.do, do, DO, and you should absolutely check it out. I am mostly on Twitter at Twitter slash ax.com slash Julian, J-U-L-A-M.

And the blog that people are referring to is Inover Yourhead.net. And if you go to Amazon, there's some books that have written to. Amazing. And if you made it to the deep end, hit us up on Twitter with the link of this of this YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast and let us know what you think. This has been fun, Julian. I'll catch you IRL in Montreal.