The Startup Ideas Podcast - Investor Psychology & Trading on the Future With Raoul Pal

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

Do you have what it takes to grow your investments from good to great? Today we share why Web3 will be the best investment in your lifetime, explain how India is the future of the internet, and explore the depth of knowledge needed to trade successfully. Hosts Sahil Bloom and Greg Isenberg are joined by guest Raoul Pal, a former Goldman Sachs investment banker turned entrepreneur, who founded Real Vision and Exponential Age Asset Management. Raoul divulges the secret to becoming a special investor, explains why you need to stay true to your convictions (especially in a bear market), and shares his vision for the future of the financial world. ►► Want more community? Learn more here: http://trwih.comTHIS EPISODERaoul Pal: https://twitter.com/RaoulGMISahil Bloom: https://twitter.com/SahilBloomGreg Isenberg: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergProduction & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/FIND US ON SOCIALTwitter: https://twitter.com/_trwihInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/_trwihWeb: https://trwih.comSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6aB0v6amo3a8hgTCjlTlvhApple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-it-happens/id1593424985SHOW NOTES01:23 How Raoul Pal Introduced Sahil 05:25 Raoul Pal’s Origin Story & Building His Brand 9:54 Unique Ability Matters for People & Funds13:22 The Depth of Knowledge Needed to Trade 16:45 Investor Psychology 17:44 The Best & Worst Trade Raoul’s Career 23:51 Trust Your Gut27:20 How Your Geographic Location Helps or Hurts You29:26 Investing for the Future32:33 India is the Future of the Internet36:06 The Exponential Age 40:26 What does the digital world look like in 20 years?46:20 Space is Closer Than We Think52:50 Why Raoul Pal is All-In on Web359:36 Can You Tokenize Politics and Religion

So I sat down and thought about it and did a lot of reading. And I had this moment where I started not being able to sleep because I realized the nexus of the fastest pace of adoption of an enormous numbers of groundbreaking technology at the same time. So there's not early stage stuff that we hear about. This is stuff actually happening right now that's going to go from, you know, 100 million people to 4 billion people in the next decade and a half. And that, I was like, okay, what are these?

And simply obviously, cryptocurrency is one, blockchain technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, space, EV, Internet of things, genetic sciences. You know, none of these are new until you realize they are all Metcalf's law models. And when you add Metcalf's law on top of Metcalf's law, you get Reeds law, which is even more truly exponential. So then I realize, okay, humanity is going to go through the biggest change of technology and technological change because of exponentiality we've ever gone through and it's already breaking the fabric of society.

What's going on? It's been one of those days. Oh, no. It's only just started. Oh, no. I hate my desk at 5 a.m. this morning trying to clear. Why? what's going on?

Just busy. Just busy. Lots going on. Yeah, we're going to have to get into that. I'm excited to see you, man. I feel like it's been a long time since we've caught up. So if this is even just an excuse to get to chat and see your face and see your lovely background, I will take that as a win.

So great to have you on the show, man. And so much we were excited to dig into. But very, very thankful for your time. No, I'm really excited. This is going to be fun. So just for the listeners, because I think this is funny background, and Greg, I don't even know if you know this story. Rao and I go, I'm going to say way back. It's not technically way back, but it feels like it's been ages and ages since this.

But, you know, I'm like sitting in my house in California, stuck at home during lockdowns. This is like, call it July 2020. And I just started on Twitter and I'm like, you know, writing a few threads and doing some like really like finance explainer stuff. And I had a few thousand followers. I thought I was famous. I had like, I don't know, 5,000 followers. And I really thought I was famous. And someone likes my thing that, like, has, you know, 150 or 200,000 followers. And I was like, holy shit, who is that? And I look and it's like this guy, Raup Paul. And I've been following him for a while and seeing, you know, he's putting up all this great finance content. Real Vision. I was a subscriber and I had, you know, religiously read, especially during all of the turbulence of COVID was like just learning a lot from that environment and, you know, trading on some of it. Like it was just really fun. And I was learning a ton. And out of the blue, Rao reaches out to me. We connect for a quick chat. And he tweets out something like that Sahel Bloom is putting out some of the best educational content on FinTuit.

You should follow him. And my Twitter, I think I went from like 5,000 to 25,000 overnight from Raul just recommending me. And I still to this day credit him with like, he was the jump off, man. Like I needed that one kick because then I like I feel like I've taken that and rode that way for a while now. So thank you, sir, for all that you've done for my life. It's all about doing good for each other, right? We are a community after all. If we treat each other well, life is much easier.

Yeah, well, you put Sahel on the map. Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry. That's all I can apologize to everybody. That's true. We have to get his drunken whiskey tweets on a Sunday and stuff like that's true, man. There's probably some people, like the thread haters out there are probably pissed, man. They're going to be coming after you now, Rale.

You're going to have the anonymous. Before we get into anything, Sahel, I saw your last. last thread you got like what 70 plus thousand likes you like a hundred hundred thousand man i've never seen that before in my life really wow yeah and i didn't even do a single chrome extension or excel tip in it bro what was it which one was it um razors you you read it i tweeted it yeah yeah yeah why did it go so viral um i don't know man i mean like honestly it's kind of funny right like 75% of that was repurposed content that i had written in the past so it wasn't like it was brand new.

I don't know, kind of a good hook, and sometimes things catch on. I noticed recently that there are just things that I see on Twitter that are way more viral than I've ever remembered things going. Like I saw someone that did an Excel thread recently that had like 300,000 likes. And I remember, like back in the day on Twitter, if you got like a few thousand likes on something, that was bananas. Like that was super viral. But now I think, I don't know whether the algorithms change or like what's getting

prioritized, but man, it's, it feels different. Well, I've never had 70,000 likes. Yeah, you'll be all right. I'm not worried about you. Can we just start? There's, there's so much that I want to get into and a bunch of rabbit holes around the exponential age and your thesis there and Web 3, some of the cool, you know, new business stuff you're building there. But can we start with just like your path? Because you have a really interesting story, you know, coming from not dissimilar to me, like a traditional finance background. You were at Goldman Sachs, which is like as traditional as traditional finance comes. What led you to deciding to leave and sort of going down this path as an entrepreneur, you know, at the time that you did? So my first step of leaving Goldman was realizing I didn't want

to be at Goldman is that, you know, it's not me. I loved Goldman Sachs for many things. Probably the world's greatest network, to be truthful. And you're around some of the smartest people in the world, but you're confined. You're confined in how you are, what you do in a way that, you know, I just knew that wasn't me. I've always been quite individual. I like to do things differently. And so I saw the recession coming in 2000 and I wanted to trade it. You know, I've been lucky. I've been, it's been like being taught acting by Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and whatever, because I got to speak to the world's most famous hedge fund managers all day. You know, Paul Tudor Jones and Lewis Bacon and Stan Drucker Miller and you name it.

So I thought, you know, I want to give this a go. And so I went to, luckily, you know, one of my biggest client, in fact, hired me, which was GLG Partners, which was a giant hedge fund firm in London and time ended up turning into Man Group. And I started a macro book there. And after about three months of doing well, three, six months doing well, they said, well, this morning we start a macro fund. So I co-ran it with another guy called Ben Gill.

And we started that fund and built that one up. But over that period of time, it was much more entrepreneurial. GLG was a great place. I was losing my mojo with macro. I didn't have a great year in my last year there. It wasn't disaster, but wasn't great. But it's how the industry had changed. It had gone from being this gunslinger's high volatility, long-term conviction world to asset gathering, low volatility, lower returns.

And that was the rise of the pension funds in the insurance companies piling huge amounts of money in the space. And they said, we don't want 15% 20% volatility. And we're prepared to not have 30% plus returns in great years or more. What we actually want is to look more like a bond plus. We want 6% volatility and we want 8% returns. And I'm like, it's not my game. It's just I don't enjoy that. And I could see that was the death of the industry because it was forcing people to be shorter term.

and the time horizons. So Macro, Paul Trudeau Jones told me a great thing was, what makes a great investor in his mind is somebody whose idea horizon matches his trade time horizon. Right. A lot of people think, oh, the dollar's going up over the next six months or two years and they trade in and out of it. Or the opposite is true is they're short-term traders by nature because they have to be You have this monthly P&L. And every position, basically gets reset every month because your investors go, well, why do you scrub last month? They don't look at where you bought something and where you sold it in the industry.

Unlike VC, in the hedge fund industry, it's where you were marked last month. Yeah, it's mark to market. So it's crazy. So it means that everybody's time horizon is this two week to two month time horizon, yet your idea horizon, because it's macro, is in economic terms, which is 18 months or so. You know, to go from peak economic cycle to trough recession, that's a two and a half year thing. And it gets interesting to trading from macro for about an 18 month period. But you can't do it.

So I'm like, this is useless. So I kind of defiantly left and decided to opt out of the rat race and moved to Spain because quality of life is something that always mattered to me a lot. You were in London? You were in London before? Okay. Yeah. And I thought, what's the whole game for if it's not for quality of life?

I mean, money's just an output, but the real thing that you're actually working your bulls off for is quality of life. So I moved to Spain and I realized that I'd had a lot of experience in macro versus most. And I had also learned how to write. I was writing at Goldman. We had this group chat that was very early group chat days, like an AOL group chat thing that I used to run for the whole firm. and became very well known for it. So from the chairman down, everybody read my stuff. And then I wrote an article after a business trip to China when I was at the hedge fund

called There's Something Wrong in Paradise when I turned up to China to expect to see all the amazing stories I was reading and getting from analysts and turned up and there was just empty buildings off the empty buildings. And I'm like, you and Carson Block. And I'm like, oh my God, this is a disaster. So I wrote it all up. And I think Stan Drucker-Miller got seven copies. And so I realized that if something like that could go viral,

and I knew how these guys spoke, and I knew how they thought I should write research so I can stay in the markets myself and invest, but also have my hand. And so just by word of mouth, global macro investor grew from Goldman Sachs and GLG backing me, saying, yeah, we'll definitely sign up, to the world's most famous hedge fund managers,

family offices, sovereign wealth funds and everybody else. So that was the first stab at being entrepreneurial. Do you think, just to pause you there for a second, I mean, do you think that insight that you had a unique ability to sort of abstract all of the complexity around these things that were happening, was that just, was that sort of practice? Like, was that, you know, Bruce Lee, like, you know, 10,000 practice kicks on a single kick, or was it something you just had, you feel like innately? I'm a very visual person, so I distill everything into imagery.

Which is why macro so appealed to me, because macro is this massive 3D, always changing map of the world of all the asset classes, how they're interrelated, the economies and the news flow. And I found I can hold it my head. And I can spin it around and look at it and take different component parts aside. and therefore you can simplify it if you can make a picture of it. And so I just create that mental picture for others. Because most others struggle to see the connections, to see how this could be. People can think one step ahead,

but people don't think two and three. And two and three is where I'm pretty good at, which is longer term, knock on effects, how this is going to play out. It doesn't mean they get all of them right, but I've been consistently pretty good at that over time. And I can explain it to people in a way that they understand it and can grasp it. But whether they disagree or agree, I mean, again, that's the beautiful thing about global macroinvestor.

I've had people who barely ever agree with me and they've been subscribers for 18 years. Do you think that the hedge fund industry, I mean, you mentioned a little bit of like the structural shift that you saw happening with people becoming asset aggregators rather than, you know, real investors or traders and, you know, that coming from the pension funds or the insurance companies piling money and they're, preferences around volatility and time horizons, etc. Do you think that it is, I mean, super difficult to be truly long-term oriented as a hedge fund today as a result of that change? Like, do you think that most of the hedge funds out there today are just focused on the really short term and they have to have really short idea horizons for that reason? I'll probably give you an exact number.

Zero. I lie. There's probably Chris Pinode. there's like two or three. Basically, that's why they turn into family offices. Because you can't play that game. The best investors I ever saw, the best investor I ever saw,

bar none was Nick Raditi. He used to work for George Soros. And he was the, you won't find much on the internet. I can see you boozing. He is super secretive. And he came across my time horizon, but in 1991,

he was the highest paid man in England. And everyone was like, who the hell is this guy? And he lives above a shop. in Hampstead High Street, which is a suburb of London, and became legendary. And I got to meet him, but he was legendary at Goldman and other investment banks for how he traded. I mean, he was a polymath, so he knew in-depth about more things than you and I even know

exist and incredible. And Nick was an older gentleman from Zimbabwe or Rhodesia at the time. he didn't have a Bloomberg screen. He used to read the FT. There would be a grandfather clock ticking, tick, tick, tick, when you go to his office. He would throw out analysts who turned up who weren't prepared,

who didn't know their stuff in depth. But when he took risk, he took obscene risk, obscene, long-term positions. You know, if you read anything by Stan Drucker Miller and George Soros, they're like, no, no, Nick's the guy. because Nick

could see the world in ways that others couldn't see and have the conviction to have enormous leverage. So Nick was the guy who would have the 300% up year but Nick would be the guy who would have the 40% down year.

But he was astonishing and never forget him calling up the futures guys at Goldman and said he'd bought a ridiculous position in German Bund futures, super leveraged. And he called up, like, four weeks later after putting the trade on.

He goes, those Bund things I bought, where are they now? And the guy goes, well, Nick, let me just check. Well, they've kind of gone quite a lot against you. He goes, oh, that's unfortunate. I didn't realize that. I tell you what, let's just double up, shall we? He puts the phone down. I mean, astonishing.

But the depth of his knowledge, I went into and talked, I launched a hedge fund, an agricultural hedge fund. I went talking about agriculture. And Nick is so amazing. It's firstly, he's listening to my thesis. And he goes, well, that's interesting, well, because that reminds of a paper that was sent to me, I think, in 66. Let me just get it.

I haven't seen it since then. He remembers this paper. He like, takes it out, dust it off. It's somebody's PhD paper on crop yields. I'm like, wow. And I said, how are you interested? He goes, you know, I'm not really interested in your fund. because I've got these positions on myself.

He said, you know, it's really interesting because I took my wife and we hired a plane and we flew across Ukraine and all of the Soviet breadbasket just to see what the fields look like, the weak fields, where the borders lie. He said, I all then took my wife in a car and drove across the Midwest because I wanted to see what the cornfields were like and the wheat fields and how it felt in the sketch. I'm like, so he would do this kind of work. Yeah. How are you going to compete against that? guy you come no chance it actually lends into a into a conversation that gregg and i were having recently

just around like really like investor psychology um and really like psychology of trading and and investing and especially recently i mean gregg well it came up because one of our good good friends who i won't name who's very smart objectively um told us that he had sold all of his equities um like a couple weeks ago like the market had like it was literally really the bottom. If you were like the local bottom, he texted us on one day and was like, I just sold everything and kind of like played out his rationale, which like you could convince yourself the logic was smart. But when I was looking at it, I was like, that's super dumb. You know, like you're outsmarting yourself on something. So can you just talk a little bit about

like what your observations have been from a career in this of investor psychology, where people screw up, you know, avoiding FOMO, how you've been handling the recent, you know, volatility in markets, et cetera. I wrote a whole piece on this. This is the best instruction I can give. Firstly, I advise everybody if you're trying to trade longer term, which is where I think the alpha is, the real outperformance is because everybody's time arising is short, you should be long.

And I set up GMI to prove that. And I've proven it over 17 and a half years. I've got a registered, you know, public track record for GMI members over 17 years. basically proven that exact point. So here's my example. Oh yeah, so write it down and every time you're going to try and sell something or change your position, ask yourself, has something changed versus your thesis? So a lot of people, their thesis has changed, but they hold onto the position because they're emotionally attached. We've all done that. Or the other one is you get spooked out of something and you forget your thesis in the first place. And then you're like, then it goes back and you're like, shit, I've missed it.

So let me tell you my crypto investments, my Bitcoin investment story because it highlights it the best. Because I just recently went through the maths of this and I kind of shocked myself. So I first invested, I first heard about Bitcoin during the European crisis in 2012. I realized that this was solutions to a lot of the global financial system. And I wrote the first macro strategy piece on Bitcoin probably ever published in Global Macro Investor in 2013. And it was driven by a friend of mine, Emil Woods, who is very well known in space. And Chad Cascarello, who are global macroinvestor subscribers, saying, listen, you need to look at Bitcoin. So I looked at it.

They happened to have started an exchange called Itbit, which is now Paxos, and I ended up buying Bitcoin. And I stuck a decent size in because my analysis was, it's at $200 now. if I back out the analysis versus the stock to flow of gold, this is worth a million dollars with the gold at these current prices. Therefore, it's underpriced. I hadn't figured out anything else about network effects, but I kind of understood that this was potentially important. And I assumed that it will go to zero. So my downside was 200. My upside was 99,000, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, I assume that I am a total idiot, which I try and assume most of the time, and therefore I'm 90% wrong.

So if the upside is 100,000 and it's $200, it's the best risk reward any of us will ever come across in our entire lives, and maybe one of the best risk rewards of all time. So I took that bet, right? Macrothesis, did the work, said this is probably a 10-year play, and I'm going to hold it. So first thing that happens, I put the position on, it goes up 100% a month and 500% in the next four months. I'm like, holy shit. I don't sell only because I've got a long-term thesis and it's fresh in my mind. It then falls 85%.

But luckily back to my entry level. So it gets back to 200. I don't do anything because I had a long-term thesis. And then I kind of forgot about it. And then 2017, it starts coming to life again. And it's starting to scream higher. And now it's at 2000 or 2,200. And I'm like, okay, I'm up 10x, which is good.

My thesis obviously was a lot more. But I've forgotten that because now the forking wars had started. And I suddenly thought, is this existential? Is this the S-curve moment where it fails? So I sold it. it went up another 10x to 20,000. I didn't worry about that because I'd made 10x and it was okay. It was a good trade and I was worried that it wasn't going to be able to play out my thesis because of these forking wars.

And then it fell 85%. I wasn't in it and eventually I got in in April 2020. And I can't remember my average was. I call it 6,800 or something. And then I'm still long and then, you know, rotated into Eath and did other stuff. But anyway, so great trade. One of the best trade of my life. I went back and looked at if I just kept my initial investment at 200 bucks,

I would have done, I can't remember that I'm five times better. Even though the size that I added in March 2020 was massively larger than the first size I was. it still didn't work. I'm like, huh. And then I thought, okay, if I'd actually followed my thesis, which is when it gets very oversawled and it gets to that kind of logarithmic, the bottom, the two standard deviations

oversold of a logarithmic channel or whatever, if I'd actually just doubled my position every time, but not doubled it, sorry, just added the same amount as my initial seed investment, I'd have done like 25X. I'm like, okay, so what I thought was a great trade was actually a terrible trade because I didn't trade my plan and I didn't think about what I was trying to achieve.

So that's leading to the question about, okay, the market sell off now. I'm immensely comfortable because I see the network adoption. I've got even more models to understand how this space works. I see how broad and deep the talent, the adoption, the kind of conversations that Greg and I have with people all the time. you know, it's like seeing the future. So therefore, the volatility now, I've been adding as fast as I can, scraping the sofa for coins or anything to put more money in. What's the optical effect that's actually quite hard is once you've had a big gain

and it's, even though it's come off a lot, it's still a reasonable amount of money. And you don't have that much capital available to double it up. And it doesn't feel like your position's getting much bigger. And I'm struggling with this right now. because I'm increasing like 10% or 20% because I don't have the cash to do that. But if I just... It's the benefit of having income, by the way.

Like, you and I've talked about this, Raoul, is like having income and having a source of income around this is a big driver of allowing, you know, Greg, you and I have talked about this. Like, it's great because your positions can be down, but I can go dollar cost average into things at lower prices because I have income every month. And if you don't, if you're just a trader,

and that's what you're doing day to day, It gets very hard to double up. But what advice do you have for staying sober, basically? And what I mean by sober is... Yeah, because I don't say sober a lot, but so... You know what I mean. Not like getting, you know, doing substances, but, you know, for example, when everything starts, you know, when there's a drawdown, there's a massive drawdown, even if I have a, you know, this thesis that, let's just say, you know, a very strong. thesis, it feels like, you know, it's a sunny day and it's starting to get rainy. And then if you

think about it too much, I find it's easy to have narratives in your head, which is, you know what, you know, this, you know, open sea volume is down. Maybe, you know, Ethereum isn't the play. Maybe I should move it to here. Like, how do you, how do you maintain your? Because I've got a big picture framework that is robust and tested. and is deep. I've done a lot of work on it. So I feel comfortable with the probabilities. Now, I love markets like anybody else. So I've got on my screen the real-time chart of ETH daily, weekly, monthly and hourly. I don't even trade EF. I just buy it. But I like the market and I look at the price action. And what I do, what I did the whole period was just didn't look at my P&L.

So I have learned, and this is a new thing for me, how to disassociate myself with my P&L. Because if not, you're always thinking peak to drawdown or look how much it's worth now, as opposed to how far are we along in my thesis? Let the numbers take care of themselves over time. I'm learning that because, you know, this is a hard one to learn on because the volatility is so high. But, you know, I've done it similarly. I mean, I had a very strong view in 2012 about the US. dollar and the euro. I was living in euros, billing in euros. GMI was based in euros. I was living in Spain and I thought based on a bunch of work that I'd done that the dollar was, the euro was going to

fall over a long period of time and it was going to fall to 85 cents, 82 cents was my target and has been my target since then. So I took all of my savings, which was a reasonable amount at the time and stuck it all into dollars. Then to force myself not to trade it, I bought a, I bought a couple of properties, one in Cayman and a small place in Miami, in dollars. So I couldn't therefore, and I was now in the trade properly. And I changed the billing of global macro investor in dollars. And that was a phenomenal bet because that was at 148 and a half in the euro. Still hasn't got to my target, but it was there.

You know, so I've done it once, but that was easier. This one, Bitcoin's harder. Otherwise, I don't tend to have run so many really long-term massively volatile positions. My positions are normally six months to two years. Do you think being where you are, be it in the Caymans, being in Spain, basically not being in London and New York helps you be... Massively. Everybody's got too much of an opinion. The only opinion you need to listen to is yours. You just...

You hear other people's opinions. you test your thesis. But so many people just flip-flop around because somebody who sounds smart came with an opposing thesis and it scares them or makes them bullish. We're all subjects that. We're all humans. But yeah, getting out of London and New York is immensely useful. That's a great point because I have often felt this.

And I, you know, it's not as much a geography thing for me as it is like a circles of contact or friends thing where like, like Greg, we have a great. We have a group chat of a bunch of quote unquote smart, you know, tech oriented people who are all generally invested in, you know, crypto tech growth stuff, et cetera. And the dumbest trades I have ever made, the dumbest investments I have ever made objectively are things that I ended up getting like, you know, pressured into from that like smart group chat. Collectively, we've lost millions. Collectively.

I mean, like, we've destroyed so much alpha in that group chat. Like it's sort of an ongoing joke in the group chat that like one of the quality for being in it is that you have to destroy alpha. You know, like there was a time, I actually didn't get into this one, but there was like a whole long period in 2021 where everyone was like aping into Zillow. And every time it was down 10%, someone would be like, oh man, this is the future of real estate. I'm doubling up. And then everyone would double up on it.

And then it would go down another 20%. And people are like, I mean, I think there are people in the group chat down 80% on Zillow stuff. And now here's the worst thing. Maybe their thesis is right. yeah but most people will have got out of the trade or got bored because their hundred grand is now worth 10 grand they're like oh fuck yeah they don't care anymore and it's so hard to trade your way out of that man i mean really really hard if you're going to like then sell it and try to work your way back it's just not going to happen but it is it's a great point on like

i think of it of um i call it like the tragedy of expertise or something like that where um you almost outsmart yourself like the i actually looked recently at my portfolio um and like my five-year returns and the the like smart investments I made like things where I thought I had edge or some sort of insight that was going to make it you know beat the market have underperformed the dumb dollar cost averaging I did into uh the S&P 500 Bitcoin and ETH um like dramatically underperformed all the smart things I did it was like me buying every Monday into the like three you know a couple of things that I just know are going to go up over the long term dramatically outperformed And that is just like, if that's not a sign to me, then I need to stop doing the smart things and just like be dumb and just enjoy it and embrace it.

I don't know what else is. Yeah. You know, all you need, there's a hack to all of this is all you need is a secular trend. Try not to be the smartest person in the room. Try to be dumb. Where is the obvious direction over time? because the obvious direction over time is where you'll make the most money. You can get smart around the bets there,

but the obvious direction of the adoption of crypto assets is that it's going higher. Now, that adoption rate slows and speeds up over various periods of time. So you've got a tailwind, which is amazing, right? Why does the S&P 500 outperform value in stock picking? Well, because 86 million millennials, a dollar cost averaging into a 401k. So you don't need to just start. If you look at the global economy, which is the most obvious global economy in the world that you want to be long of for the next 15 years, 20 years. It is without question, India. Why? Because they've got 1.3 billion people of an average age of 28. You haven't even

hit the demographic sweet spot, which is that 30 to 50 range, right? So all of these things are around everywhere. I mean, you know, the bond market has been an amazing trade for me, our entire career, because it's been bloody obvious. It's in one trend. And I still don't think it's broken. I know everyone's arguing, but I've argued this for the last 12, 15 years when people say, yeah, it's going to break and everything's changed. I don't think it has because of debt and demographics. These are secular trends. Trade the second trend is much easier than something else. It's like, you know, is Tesla the best car company in the world? Doesn't really matter, but EV is where money is corraling and the rate of innovation and adoption of what he's doing is still high. So, you know,

ESG, that's going to be a mega trend. Don't care with anybody agrees in the trend and the mandating of it, but everybody's mandated to do it in Europe. So all of the money goes into to ESG. So there's another tell win for you. And that's going to go on until we get changed the energy equation and the war with Russia accelerates it. I think it's in its trade. It's trade secular trends and it's also built in secular trends. Correct. So, for example, I'm happy you brought up India. I heard recently from Bologi, actually on the Tim Ferriss podcast,

that he said that the majority of... The English-speaking internet will be Indian. Exactly. That is on my Evernote in front of me because we've just started Real Vision India. And it just struck me as something immensely powerful based exactly on the same demographic. consequence of having, what, 300 million people who are English speaking of the middle classes in India. That changes the fabric of the internet fundamentally. And once I, I haven't been able to sleep since I've heard that, basically, because I was like, this changes, this changes everything.

I don't think enough people realize it. And there's a same to me, Greg, it struck me. I'm not, you know, as you know, I'm half Indian. I mean, I'm a huge India bull. And I had not got that simple, So this is somebody who's clarified a whole complexity. I could speak for hours about India and what they're doing and everything else. He's distilled it into one point that is so prescient that it kept you up at night. Say it one more time just for clarity. Soon the majority of the English-speaking internet will be Indian. Yeah.

So, and he explains an apparent, a little bit after that, is that the conversations you have online, the highest probability, is that they will be Indians. There will not be Americans. They'll not be English. They'll be Europeans. They will be Indians. And I'm like, well, what he's saying is the future of the internet is Indian.

And that's the Indian diaspora both at home. So, Sehill, you're part of that as well. The Indian diaspora at home and abroad. And with India, I think we can include Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Indian subcontinent. So, I mean, the diaspora in the US is taking over the blue. bloody world. And everyone's like, wow, why is there so many Indians? Well, firstly, everybody at Real Vision is a bloody Indian now. It becomes a joke. Why? Because there's enormous numbers

of Indians. I'm dwarfs everybody else. You, so this all reminds me, like when you talk about secular trends, you talk about these big picture things. I think a lot about Josh Wolf, who I think is a mutual friend of ours, Raoul as well, and, you know, his whole thesis around directional arrows of progress. And that's always really resonated with me is like, you don't need to pick the exact thing, but just figure out what the directional arrow of progress is and trade, invest, build in that. You wrote a piece recently for GMI about what you call the exponential age. Can you just talk about that? What does that mean to you? What are those big secular trends that you're seeing that people should be paying attention to? Yeah. I mean, after writing it,

I realized it wasn't quite so revolutionary because obviously people like Kathy Wood have been doing it and people like the guys at Scottish Mortgage Trust that most people don't know of, that probably the best tech managers in the world, have been doing. And basically, I just stepped back and I was like, okay, I'd seen that if I divided various assets by the central bank balance sheet, over the period we're having big monetary printing in 2021 or 2020, I realized that there's only two things that outperform the Fed balance sheet over the last since 2008 only two asset classes one was technology stocks and the other was crypto and that stopped in my tracks I'm like why technology stocks and then I I realized that

that these were also network adoption models so they got me thinking about okay here's a secular trend I'm not I'm missing right because I was one of those people who think that all VCs are idiots this is a stupid overhyped ridiculous thing and obviously clearly wrong but macroframe works don't work very well because there tend to be mean reverting often. Some people got it. Stan Dracomiller got it a while ago and a few people did. So I sat down and thought about it and did a lot of reading. And I had this moment where I started not being able to sleep because I realized the nexus of the fastest pace of adoption of an enormous numbers of groundbreaking technology at the same time. So there's not early stage stuff that we hear about. This is stuff actually happening right now.

that's going to go from, you know, 100 million people to 4 billion people in the next decade and a half. And that, I was like, okay, what are these? And simply, obviously, cryptocurrency is one, blockchain technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, space, EV, internet of things, genetic sciences. You know, none of these are new until you realize they are all Metcalf's Law models. And when you add Metcalf's Law on top of Metcalf's Law, you get Reeds Law, which is even more truly exponential. So then I realize, okay, humanity is going to go through the biggest change of technology

and technological change because of exponentiality we've ever gone through and it's already breaking the fabric of a society. Right? That's clear. And just to make sure every listener understands the point you just made there, Metcalfe's law is basically like the under the underpinning of network effects, which just says, you know, a network's value is, I guess what it technically says is that a network's value is equal to the square of the number of users in the network, put more simply more users equal more value per user.

More users and more interconnection between the users, right? because more users is not a network, it's a potential network. Yeah. Once you start building on top of the network, you know, what is the value that the mobile phone networks have actually created if you think about that? Not making phone calls, but what got built on top of it. You know, this kind of stuff, right? And when you, you know, and mobile phones and that technology has been a reeds law example

because you have the mobile phones. phone technology, then the computing technology goes on top, the software technology goes on top of that, and before you know it, the whole thing goes like ridiculous. So we're about to go through the largest change humanity's ever gone through. We're not dealing with the change already. You can see it all over Twitter. There's people so distrusting of change and fear of change and, you know, moving away from good old Mustang and moving to a Tesla. That just seems like it's a political opinion now. the whole thing is is all about the fear of change. So I thought about this and so I can say, I know it's tearing society apart and it will continue to do so because humans don't deal with

change at this speed at all. Most species don't. So I thought, what do you do about that? How do you change the mindset of this? The obvious thing is to embrace it. Because then it goes from being something you fear to something you'd be excited about. And if you understand network adoption models, it means it should be incredibly lucrative to embrace it financially by investing in it. So I started building a broad basket of stuff that basically captures the directionality of these mega trends. You know, gaming, metaverse, they're all part of the same ludicrous change that none of us, if we come back to this conversation in 15 years time, well, A, we won't be doing it over Zoom. you know i mean i i can't even get my head around the change as much like none of us got the

head around the changes when we first saw the internet and like you know once you first saw something in about 96 no way we thought we'd be doing this 20 years later what do you think could you paint a vision of what internet metaverse might look like in 15 years look everything is converging it is converging it is converging on the singularity once you see all of this stuff there is no other outcome now whether that's man enhances machine or machine enhances man is going to be the big debate of 20 30 years time but everything is going to be digitized we're seeing it's the megatrend right if you step back what is the megatrain everything and i explain this to people they don't get it but electricity is about to be digitized that is what this whole revolution is about the whole esg revolution

is going from using these physical fossil fuels to using atoms or energy that exists and basically digitizing it. So once you do that, the cost of anything that gets digitized goes to zero. It's one of the most powerful forces the world has ever seen. So what does the world look like with near free electricity? Oh, okay, that means something different, that we're not concerned. strained by cost of energy? So what possibilities does that allow for computing power? What possibilities does it allow for travel?

What possibilities that allow for technology? I have no idea, but it's coming. Whether that's 15 years time or 30 years time, it is definitely coming. So all I know that we will be living in a more and more digital world and the metaverse is just the expression of that. Like this, I always explain on these calls, this is this is a. a metaverse experience, right? These are digital renditions of ourselves with digital renditions of our voices. You know, all of this stuff, this is basically the starts of what a metaverse is,

and it'll all come together. But it also on the flip side means that nature probably trades at a premium. If you're living all of your life, you know how difficult it's been for us all, how incredibly productive and useful it's been to be able to operate on Zoom, and how it gives you a headache, you're exhausted by the end of the day and all of that stuff because you're not interacting with nature, the outside people and stuff like that. So I think nature probably trades at a premium, which is an interesting concept that I've been kind of getting through my mind with this. So the answer is I don't know what the world's going to look like, but I know that all of these things, they're all going to one point. Like I used to say that crypto and macro were these

two tracks that were going to meet at the next recession than it happened. These tracks obviously meet at the singularity, which is a horrifying, terrifying, concept, you know, and this is going to sound bat-shick crazy, but I think you are the right people to float it with. And I'm not a Elon Musk, you know, fanboy, although I'm incredibly amazed at what he's done. He's going to Mars, if he can. And everything he's doing is for that. If you step back, I've not even written about this yet, if you step back and look at all of the things he's doing, they're all for the same thing. I actually think the boring company is not about digging tunnels under Los Angeles. I don't think it gives a shit. I think it's

because the only way of inhabiting Mars is underground. This is why we bring you on to the pod. I also think that, you know, SpaceX, Doge, right? People don't understand his fascination with Doge. If you understand what he's doing, and again, this is not me going on, Elon Musk, the greatest man in the world. He tells you this, but nobody listens. What is Doge? Doge is likely to be his currency. What does that mean? It's still decentralized in some method, not hugely so, but yes, he's a large stakeholder in it. But I'm guessing he'll use it as streaming payments for his cars. Why would he not? And I interviewed somebody from NASA, a guy called Leon Alkalite, incredible guy. He's now got a VC in space stuff. I got him on a lot. I got him on

real vision. He blew me apart. I had no idea how advanced space was. He's like, oh yeah, well, we're setting up server farms in space because we don't want to beam down the, because it's too expensive to send down the data and back up again. And we need a streaming payment system in space. Now there's no sovereignty in space. Get your heads around that. There is no sovereignty. So you can have your own system of currency in space. So then if you think about, okay, why the robots that he's building? or somebody needs to go and do the work in Mars to build. Why even, and this is maybe wildly off truck, but look at the cyber truck.

If you can generate solar power from Mars, which I believe you can, why would that cyber truck not be a perfect vehicle for moving around Mars? Now, I don't know about the gravitational components, but I think it's decent enough. But I don't know. But there's a lot of these things that I've looked at. And then if you've seen the whatever the mind thing that, you know, that's singularity stuff. The idea is maybe as humans you can't colonize miles on your own and you have to do it with the robots. But and even if I'm, even if I'm wrong on this, the point being that you made before Sehill, I'm not directionally wrong. Ask Josh Wolf. Ask the people at NASA. Ask anybody in a space in. industry. I'm not directionally wrong. It is. And it's coming faster than anybody thinks. Yeah, it's one of those things. I forget, Dornbush's law, which is like it, you know, it takes longer than you ever expect, but then it happens faster than you ever thought it could have happened once it starts. And I feel like we're at the point now where it has started. So here's the thing I didn't

know. Again, everyone should go to that Real Vision interview. I think it's on my exponential age interview series with a guy called Li and Alkalite, it would completely blow your mind. So he's like, well, do you understand that we're all fighting over who's going to get the dark side of the moon and we're worried that the Chinese have got there? I'm like, why do I care about the dark side of the moon?

He goes, so you don't get it, do you? He said, no. He said, the gravitational pull of Earth is massively reduced so we can launch rocket ships further into space. I'm like, oh. And he goes, oh, we're also already sending up refueling stations into outer space so we can send what gets further.

I'm like, really? He's like, oh yeah, yeah. He goes, I've got an app that I've invested in, which is for a million bucks, you can send a satellite up yourself from a phone app for like universities or anybody. And he says, and the costs are going to collapse. It'll be 10,000 bucks for you know it to send your own satellite up. They're 10 square centimeters. I'm like, really? And he's like, oh, also, you know, there is a race to build a base station on the,

moon. I'm like, why does anybody want to look at the moon? It's unhabitable. He goes, no, it's because we can put 3D printing on the moon to print rocket chip parts. And again, we lower the gravitational pull. It's much more energy efficient. I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. I said, how far are we away from having this? He goes, oh, probably next 10 years, we'll have a base on the moon. And it's probably a private sector base. He said, we can then... It's like Artemis. We can then mine asteroids. And we'll be, you know, we're already looking at doing that and we're looking at mine, I'm like, you know, we are so far behind in our narratives that we're arguing whether, you know, EV should be adopted. Meanwhile, this shit's going on. It's, it's, this is how fast is happening. I mean, it goes to,

you said this earlier, Rale, is, you know, like when the constraints change or dramatically reduced, it unlocks a massive field of potential. And that's sort of what you're talking about with space, which is like, oh my God, there's this entirely, uh, different set of constraints in space. And if you can all of a sudden be in that environment, lower gravitational pull, whatever it might be, what does that enable from a manufacturing standpoint, from a cost reduction standpoint, like all the things that that all of a sudden unlocks? What does it also mean about sovereignty? Again, people haven't got the heads around this. So let's say Elon Musk had bought Twitter and that the servers will put in space. There was no

census by any government. Cannot be prosecuted because it doesn't exist. exist as a company. You know, and again, whether that's legally doable or not, it's possible. The point being is what's going to come from space is very different than what comes from these confines of our nation states that we live in, which kind of plays in a bit to the Belarge thesis about the network state, which is something I've been speaking about for, I don't know, six, seven years that we're going to digital sovereign states and will live in multiple ones. I think Bellagie's wrong that we will, we will leave, we necessarily leave the state

we live in. I think we live in multiple states. We already do, right? We live in Fin Twet and, you know, Greg, you live in Florida until you live outside New York and I live in the Cayman Islands, but we live in a community together, which is Finwit and Cryptot, and stuff like that. And, you know, it can be very deep and it can be very broad. We've all met on there. And yet we've got to know each other. And it's, you know, it's cool. So anyway, space changes the, again, space changes the possible in ways that we don't yet understand. It's a lot to get people's heads around, right? It's a lot to get your head around.

And it's completely insane when you think about, I think it was Tim Urban had a tweet recently saying, you know, there basically been three or four kind of like giant leaps as a planet. And one was like, you know, the first single cell organism. The next one was like, you know, the single cell, to multi-cell organism jump. Then the next one was like, you know, ocean to land or something like that. And the next big giant leap is from single planet to multi-planetary species.

And the fact that we might be alive, like the chances that we are alive during that one of the four or five giant leaps as a planet is pretty remarkable just on a cosmic time scale. And like something to feel really amazed by, I think. Yeah, and, you know, Elon Musk would say it's because we need a plan B essentially for humanity on Earth because we either destroy it or we destroy ourselves. I don't think any of us really want to live on Mars, you know, living underground or however it is. It's not a great environment. But as you say, it's just like a virus. You know, humans, we're all the same, right? We're biological creatures.

We're like a virus and what we try and do is survive and procreate. And if the conditions are not good for us in one place to do it, we'll find conditions for other places, which is the history of humanity itself and the history of all biology. Yeah, it's also the challenge of our lifespans. It's very easy when you have your own survival mechanism to survive yourself. But when you're talking about journeying out into space on time horizons that are going to be, you know, maybe you go do something that your great, great, great, great, great grandchildren will benefit from, it becomes a much more challenging time. calculus, I think. I mean, maybe part of the whole singularity in like digitizing our bodies is that our lifespans will be increased and it won't have to be altruistic to go and venture and do those things.

No, that's right. You know, humans struggle with altruism generally because it's a matter of self-survival. But overall humans, again, I used to be more cynical than humans, but I think I believe in that helical structure, which is, yes, we are cyclical. Yes, you make those mistakes. Yes, incrementally, things change. So before we wrap up, I want to get the download on what you guys are working on in Web 3 and this new business venture that you've recently talked about and written about. That was kind of actually the impetus for me reaching out saying, hey, we should come on and chat.

We've gotten into a super fascinating discussion on a bunch of different things. But I do want to make sure we chat about this. So I know you guys are also collaborating in some way around it. what is the big opportunity here within Web3 that you feel like you've identified and you want to go build? This is the biggest bet I've ever taken my life, this whole Web3 bet. And to me, again, when I visualize it, I see it's pretty clear that all business models go that way. So we're pivoting Real Vision around Web3. It kind of makes total sense.

We've got amazing community to have utility token, NFTs, to have all sorts of Web3 interactivity and all sorts of stuff. Great. That's happening. But the other two bets that I've got is, A, the entire financial system is going to pile capital into this space over time because of the supermassive black hole that it is when you've got all these network effects going on. And the fact that financial industry itself is going to pivot to blockchain technology, so all the securities industry, all the system of money, everything, right? So that's almost everything we know. So I set up an asset management business called exponential age, asset management. And it's a fund of hedge funds that people can basically get broad exposure to the space via hedge funds. Why hedge funds are not VC. VC space is crowded with 57 billion going in in the last 15 months. Hedge fund space, the entire size of the hedge fund space, $4 billion. The secondary market in crypto is entirely starved of capital. So it's retail only, plus a few trading firms, of which one of them is just blown up.

So the amount of capital in the space is super small, but I know it's coming because I know how this rule, but it's the secular trend. So here's the second trend. Do that. So that's one business I've set up, and we'll be launching a whole bunch of initiatives around that. The second one was obviously, if I believe that community is the most powerful force of business models going forwards, that blockchain technology, enables this in ways that we can't yet imagine and that I saw originally, it all came to me down from a moment

when I met RAC, the music artist, and he explained to me because what he'd done with NFTs and social tokens. And this was three and a bit years ago. And I just heard him, saw it in my head immediately is, oh my God, everybody's going this way. And so I'd kick that around in the head

and then was speaking to a friend I grew up with David Pemsell. He used to be the CEO of the Guardian media group. He'd started a new business, which was based around community, kind of marketing around putting together community technology and brands and that nexus. And I said, well, you're missing tokens. And so I got him down the rabbit hole over lockdown, introduced him to Kevin Kelly from Delphi and we decided to co-founder business called Science Magic Studios. So it's Sciencemagic Studios.xyz. And our basic theory is everybody is trying to tokenize from the ground

up. We're seeing it in NFTs. You go is doing probably the best job of doing that. And they've gone from NFTs into the social tokens, which is my big thesis, which is how this plays out because your digital sovereign state can have its own system of money. And that's what the system of value transfer. And that's what the, or system of value transfer. And that's what the social tokens are, and people haven't seen this yet, but it's going to come at scale. FtX was another one, which has been immensely successful. That's still $4.5 billion value of a utility token or social token, and Apecoin being the other one. And so the idea is to tokenize the world's largest cultural communities.

So culture is the new asset class. And cultures based around communities are, generally speaking, music, fashion, sports, movie, TV and book franchises. Those are the big cultural icons, if you leave out religion that almost everybody plays a part in. And those are going to become tokenized. Why? Because they're all intangibles on balance sheets.

And I saw the number, I can't remember where it came from McKinsey or somebody, that there was $63 trillion of intangibles on global balance sheets. How they get to that number, I've known it. But let's assume it's directionally right. Well, probably 20% of that is going to get tokenized via what you're doing is essentially tokenizing the intangible of brand, culture and community. What is the value of Disney, their community and the culture of Disney? Well, it ain't the $300, the million, the billion dollars, the same.

stocks worth, it's probably a couple of trillion. It's probably one of the single most valuable communities on Earth. Once you start to see the world in this terms and how you share that network with the users, as opposed to exploit the network. So Facebook is shareholders got rich, we got utility and then got monetized. But tokenization changes the equation because we all participate in the network. You know, Bitcoin is essentially a digital sovereign state of which you can participate by owning a token. And if the sovereign state succeeds over time, then you will benefit from that in your society. So it's this nexus between NFTs, metaverse, social tokens that is going to take the entire corporate world, the cultural world by storm. And this is when brands are going to

learn they've got no community and they've got no culture. And others will learn they've got unbelievable amounts of communities in culture they didn't realize, and everybody's going to change what they're doing. So that's what Science Magic Studios does. We're already speaking some of the biggest people in the music industry, biggest people, TV. I mean, we've been introduced to so many people because everybody is looking at this. And meanwhile, you know, everyone's looking at what's the next NFT community that's going to take off. I'm like, guys, there's space over there. You know, it's like there's fucking Mars.

Let's go there. Two categories. You brought up religion as one. And that's just fascinating. The two categories that I'm curious about, politics and religion. Do they ever tokenize? Yeah. You know, politics, you're dead right. I hadn't even thought about it, obviously. And now that's the, you know, if you look at the US, it's basically two sovereign states right now, which is again, a point Balaghi raises and everybody's living with. why would you not? You can tokenize it. I think you'll tokenize municipalities as well. We're also seeing like, like there's some things that people don't realize how big they are. And one was the Constitution Dow?

Yeah, it didn't work. But you coalesced what, 40 something million in capital in about a day and a half in a Dow around an idea. I mean, holy shit. That changed politics forever. People just don't know it yet. Andrew Yang is starting to see this already.

So he's, I think, got a Dow structure to do stuff. But yes, politics could be tokenized. Because if you're a badge wearing Republican or a badge wearing Democrat or a progressive, it's a self-identification of a community. And those communities, yes, somewhat geographically separated, but not always. So there is a way of having your own system. And then you become, as ever, missionaries for the network. But, you know, I mean, the US is struggling with that already. What I actually like about crypto, as an aside, on politics, I think the largest right and wrong,

but I think that what's so interesting about it is I can hang out on finance Twitter and it's very political. The people who want to be long oil tend to be on the right. and the people who want to buy Tesla tend to be on the left. Why, it's a political thing, but it is, right, as opposed to an investment, right? We should be just thinking of everything neutral as an investment. Crypto's really interesting. There's very little politics in crypto.

It's one thing. We can fight over everything else, but we don't fight about this. And what it is is, I think it's a purely capitalist system with extremely progressive values because it's a community. So you kind of got both ends of the spectrum blended together. If you're a government list, reaching, reach out to Rao and his team. They're interested. I mean, at the very least, government should be exploring what it could look like, you know, at the very least.

Yes. It seems like a way to get people more involved in the political process and invested in it more broadly. It's also, I mean, the other reaction I had to everything you guys said there is if you're a builder today and you're looking to start something, what better way to start something than starting with culture and community at the heart of it. And I know Greg You've been, you know, screaming that from the rooftops for a number of years now. But just listening to Rale speak about what the opportunities look like there and like how, you know, the biggest brands who haven't built fervent communities are going to be disrupted and they're going to be torn down in the coming years by this. If you're going to go try to disrupt, what better way to do it than with a fervent culture and community?

And think about what also what's so exciting about this is brands have been extractive, but they've been extracted from by Facebook and the advertising industry and all sorts of middlemen. The music industry is really obscene with it. The book and TV industry is really obscene. In the end, there's going to be this lovely sharing of the spoils of building a great network between the brand and the customer. And there'll be a removal of middlemen. And the power of changing that business model is enormous.

I mean, trust me, Mark Zuckerberg is not stupid. He completely understands what is going on in Web 3. and why they have to change as a business. You know, knowing many people at Meta, they get it. Because they won't exist otherwise. Totally awesome. He's a wartime general, man. Yeah.

People that hate on Zuck, I'm like, it's fine to hate on him. It's like your point on Elon Musk. It's like people hate on these guys. I get it. Hate on them. But Zuck is a wartime general. I would not bet against that guy. No.

No way. And he's not jaded yet. I mean, I don't know how he's managed that, but he's not jaded. He's gone and pivoted one of the world's biggest firms, pivoted like that on a concept. You can do that as a founder, you know, and principal owner. It's like he's in a cool position because he's not quite exposed to, you know, quarter to quarter marks, etc. Can't be booted out. You know, he can think in, it's like Xi Jinping and why I'm so scared of China, frankly.

They have a 50-year plan and they can think on 50-year time scale. while the US is sitting here bickering over, you know, two-year mid-term elections. Well, who's going to win that battle if you're long-term versus short-term? It's scary as hell. Meeting with government here the other day with one of the ministers about crypto stuff and what all the Cayman Islands is doing and stuff. And he's like, well, he said it very clearly. It was interesting.

He goes, well, you've got to understand. I'm just a temp in my job. He said, you have, you know, at best four years, at worst, two years before I get booted out. that's how I mean, that's not a good system to establish long-term strategic goals with. I mean, it goes back to what you said at the very beginning. I think it's actually, it's a great place to close too. You said in the context, I wrote it down here in the context of trading and investing, the alpha is long-term. Everyone is short-term, so you need to go long-term if you want to generate alpha. And it's the exact same thing in politics and in strategy as a business owner

or as a politician. If you are ultra-long-term oriented and you can think on 50-plus-year time horizons and you're thinking about these secular trends and you're investing behind them building behind them etc you are going to generate so much more alpha than the person that's just going with the wins on a daily basis yeah or copying what somebody else is doing just as again it's the directionality where's the secular trend live in the future imagine the future build that love that that's a great place to close man what a conversation took me to places that i did not expect I was going to go today, especially around the space stuff. Man, Raoul, thank you so much. Leo Alkalai. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. And everyone, they can find you, you know, on Twitter.

Everyone should check out Real Vision. I've been a very happy subscriber for a long time now and always learn a lot. Whether or not I agree with everything is a different story, as you said. Perfectly happy to have disagreement. But absolutely love the content you guys are consistently putting out. So thank you so much for the time, man. This was awesome. Yeah, thank you. I've been waiting to do this. It's fun. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you have any questions that you want featured in a future episode, email us at high at t rwiH.com.

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