The Startup Ideas Podcast - Keeping it Real with Danny Trinh

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Are you ready for the next iteration of Where It Happens? Greg Isenberg is now the host of the podcast, which will be focused on catching up with incredible guests at the intersection of community, commerce, and content. Today, Greg is joined by Danny Trinh, a new product designer at Snapchat, who learned to build with Greg through shared suffering and triumphs. Together they share the importance of maintaining a beginner's mindset, offer their lessons learned for the next generation, and explain why the best advice can be to trust your gut.A SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS►► This episode is brought to you by Retool.Retool is the fast way to build your own custom internal tools for your business. With a complete library of 100+ fully-featured, accessible UI components that you can drag and drop into any interface, Retool’s platform lets you build the custom internal tools your team needs, 10x faster.Thousands of teams at companies like Amazon, DoorDash, and NBC collaborate around custom-built Retool apps to operate faster and better. Also, teams of up to five can build Retool apps for free. We're huge fans of the product! If you want to learn more, go to https://retool.com/►► This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens.AG1 by Athletic Greens is incredible and we have been starting every day with it for several years. It’s just one scoop in 8-12 oz. of water each morning, and you're getting 75 high-quality vitamins, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens to help you start your day right. It's one daily habit that supports gut health, supports the immune system, recovery, energy, and focus!Right now, Athletic Greens is giving you a free 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. Take ownership of your health today by going to https://athleticgreens.com/wih►►Subscribe to Greg's weekly newsletter for insights on community,creators and commerce.You'll also find out when new and exclusiveepisodes come out from Where it Happens. And it's totally free.https://latecheckout.substack.comFIND ME ON SOCIAL:Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergInstagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@gregisenbergLINKS FOR THIS EPISODE:Production Team: https://www.bigoceanpodcasting.comDanny Trinh: https://twitter.com/dtrinhSHOW NOTES00:00 Sneak Peek00:47 Greg’s First Trip to Silicon Valley03:42 The WHY behind TRWIH Podcast05:21 The Future of Web Invites: Partiful 10:55 The Eventbrite UX 12:02 Why Web3 is like Web2 16:08 Building Web2 in SF circa 2008 23:18 Missing Vine 25:08 Lessons to the Next Generation 29:30 VCs versus Builders 39:39 100% Unfiltered 44:37 Driving Tanks 48:07 Danny Trinh’s State of Web356:02 Experimenting in Web3 1:02:50 Finding Danny Trinh 1:05:47 Thanks for Listening

You need to divorce two brains if you're a product builder in this space. One is like why you're building and what you're building and what you're excited about. And the second is like degenerative greed, D-Gen greed on like trading and making money. Because I'm like, if you let the two brains come together, it's going to get very messy for you. And your enthusiasm and your motivation is going to be this like toxic mix of why are you building, you know? And so I think obviously for anyone that's in it for degenerative, the D-gen greed, they've lost a ton of enthusiasm as things pull down and then you got to like you know seek shelter but i think for a lot of people they're building it for what i would call the right reasons which are like the primitives are

changing and it's the promise of like a better future all right new episode of the where it happens podcast welcome welcome today's episode i want to start off by telling a little story when i was 21 i was working on a app called five-five And it was this video discovery app that allowed you to find the most interesting videos on YouTube. And I was living in Canada at the time, but I had to make a trip to Silicon Valley. I had to see where all these big companies started and grew from. So I went there for a few weeks. And I got introduced to this entrepreneur who had started and sold a company to Google.

I was already following him on Twitter. So as someone who I knew about. So I was really excited to meet him. And I met him for coffee. I remember it was super rainy out. And I, you know, I walk in there wet a few minutes late. And I was just so excited to be there. I apologize for being late.

And I asked him, you know, what are you up to? What do you up to now? And he told me about how he was starting a video discovery at, how he had raised millions of dollars. And I just, I felt. my stomach turn. I was like, oh my god, is this? Is this my idea? Is he working on my idea? Of course he couldn't be. But I ended up asking him to tell me more about it. And I said, hey, could you maybe show me what you're working on? So he pulls up his laptop and he starts pulling up the mockups for this app. And literally pixel for pixel, it was the same,

like we had the same idea and I cringed right I was this early 20s you know not as much experience as him

living in Canada he was this big shot raised millions of dollars had hired all these Google engineers and it was tough and at the time you know I left that coffee shop

and I didn't really have like a support network of entrepreneurs to to call and say like, you know, to voice how I'm feeling. And that's why this episode I wanted to bring on my good friend Danny Trin. Later I moved to San Francisco and Danny became one of those friends who I could definitely vent with.

And I think that it's really important for entrepreneurs, founders, makers to have someone or ideally multiple people that they could be real with. So during this episode, there's tons of. gems from Danny about the importance of having that support network and you know I hope you really like the episode before we bring on Danny Tren I wanted to make an announcement the reason why we started the where it happens podcast was we wanted to give you an inside look into what happens behind closed doors there's so many conversations of well-known people happening behind closed doors

what if these conversations were open to everyone? What if it was like a FaceTime, basically, that two well-known entrepreneurs are having that was public? And one of the things I realized, you know, we've done a ton of interviews, is the most interesting conversations happen with makers. They happen with builders. And they happen in these three categories. Community people, commerce people. and creators and why well it's because those people are shaping the world and we're shifting the format to only interview those types of people so if you're interested in those categories you are

going to be so excited about the guests we have lined up the other quick announcement is my co-host sahel bloom is no longer going to be co-hosting with me it's just going to be me he's focusing on his book and I'm focusing on this podcast as well as my company late checkout. So I'm excited for him and I'm really excited about where the podcast is going and I know you're going to enjoy this conversation with Danny Tran and what we've got cooking for you because it is incredible. Thank you. Well, well, speaking of that, by the way, I remember the last time I was on, it's crazy to think that it was six months ago. So much has changed this year. I feel like at the end, you all were jokingly mentioning Partifle.

And I think I joke was like, are you all behind Partifle? Let me tell you, Partifle, since that time, good Lord, I feel like I see it everywhere. And it's just been crazy to see. Good for them, you know. Yeah. So you want to describe what Partifle is for people who didn't listen to that episode and why you might think it's interesting? Yeah, I mean, it's like it's paperless posts,

brought into the new era for mobile or like, you know, for SMS just the way people might do invites and as obviously things like Facebook events and other things have died. There's been obviously a need to make it really easy to organize. And at least here in New York,

I've been seeing Partif will go out, even if there was a birthday party or whatnot or a dinner. And it's set out a Partifle link. And it's really smart. You know, it's on SMS. It starts with a website that you can just text or snap to somebody.

Yeah, I'm just genuinely surprised to see that it like has consolidated. And it's like a thing for sending out like a really quick and prompt to invite, you know. Yeah, I think what's cool about it is like when I when I chat with the founder, she was like, yeah, it's basically like, I don't know, paperless post, but for Gen Z. And when I when I go to websites where it's like, hey, it's this product for Gen Z or it's this product for millennials, like that never works. Like you can't say it's for that. person. You just kind of have to like, when I go to, I just went to the Partiful website, and it's like, it's not like it says Gen Z anywhere on this website. Yeah. Just like, I mean, I know nothing about the team behind it, but I wish them all

success. It's pretty cool, especially in a space that's so crowded around this, full of so many, uh, some of dead folks who tried it out. Yeah, wait, who are the Partifle founders. Today's episode is brought to you by a company and product that has literally changed my life and one that I use every single day. I started taking AG1 in 2011 because I wanted to feel great. It's been a staple of my morning routine ever since. Yeah, that's 10 years and 99% compliant.

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To learn more, you just got to go to retool.com. I only met one of them. I'm blanking on her name. Her name is, let's see, hold it up. I think her name is Joy Tao. Oh, no, Shreya, that's who I met. And, yeah, she's probably in her mid-20s, really product design or, like, focus. Like you can see it in the product.

Like it feels very much like, I mean, you get it. It's like when you use the particle product, it like it feels really good. When you use event bright, like you want to take a shower. Yeah. Well, I don't remember the last time I used event right. But yeah, I guess. And by the way, it looks like you just use event bright because you know that hair is looking, looking real real real clean, you know.

Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just got out of an event bright session. And that's why, yeah, for the listeners, I just, I just took a shower. So, yeah. Well, yeah, I guess what else, what are you seeing these days? Do you see anything fun lately that's caught your eye? I'm curiously, you know, I've been seeing a lot of stuff. You know, we chatted a little bit about Web 3.

You know, obviously a lot has changed in Web 3 over the last six months. And I was just right before this, in between shower and this call, I was, I was, I was reading Kupatrupa's newsletter around music NFTs Yeah And I've just been fascinated with like Web 3 in music

Thinking about royalties Thinking about like You know the role of the label Curious your perspective On music NFTs And then also just in Web 3 in general like, what has changed? Are you still bullish? You know, talk to me. Yeah, I mean, it's two things. A, especially with music and ATD is definitely not my bag.

I know a lot of people who were really kind of excited about it, and I know there's a lot of energy there. I think obviously a lot remains to be seen. So, you know, I think I saw something randomly. It was called like Sounds XYZ or something. They released as like some protocol or something. And anyways, very excited for them or like whatever finding out, is it they're there. But I think that's the question. Is there a they're there? So I think you have all these people like kind of telling each other it's going to be awesome or it's the future without, you know, a ton behind it.

But that's not to take away from them trying to change the foundation of it all. I think Web 3 in general kind of reminds me of Web 2 right now. And that like I don't think a lot of people remember Web 2 how Web 2, at least from where I'm sitting ended. And that you had this like, oh, the future the web is social. They had all these like micro blogging competitors. And like, oh, Web 2 is so exciting. It is Ajax.

We're going to age. Everything's going to be alive and it's going to be awesome. But there was definitely a moment where like things got really tough and rough, like 2008-ish or like things consolidated. A lot of that stuff is now dead, you know, and it's nothing wrong with those founders or those people. But just, you know, even though there was this generation, you know, the internet becoming more modern or things that we now accept to be tablesticks.

A lot of stuff was cleared out. And I think, you know, as we're in winter, we're so firmly in winter again, you know, there's a natural consolidation happening of like, you know, some of the less sturdy and frankly, some of the more hypey, noisy stuff is getting washed away. And it's, yeah, it's forcing folks to go back and focus. It's like, you know, it's beyond winter now. It's like nuclear winter. It's like, and I think it's bigger than any of the just Web3 stuff. It's like the world we live in today. where it's just really, really rough.

I mean, one thing, so I'll segue really quickly. Like, I'm pretty excited about October 11th. Japan's opening its borders for, like, non-business excused travel. And it's like the U.S. dollar versus the yen is an all-time crazy high. And it's like, that's a bang. I'm nothing to do with, like, crypto. That's just the world we live in. Like, the, you know, things are just getting crazy and hectic.

Like, they think the euros at a 20-year historic low against the dollar and whatever. Like, all I'll say is it's kind of a crazy time we live. And so I think Web 3, yeah, suffering for like that entire generation of companies are now. But so many others are too. So it's interesting to watch because I will say I think some of the best, most resilient founders and teams tend to get started or tend to survive, improve themselves for surviving periods like this. And, you know, this period is far from me even over or, frankly, even getting started. I think we're still in the free fall. Like in the depth of some darkness.

So, yeah, wishing Godspeed to all the folks out there trying to darn us to stay afloat and keep building and stay focused. Yeah. Could you? How about you? Yeah. Could you talk, like, I want to come back to the Web 3 thing, but I want to actually jump to Web 2 for a second, living in San Francisco during the heyday. our buddy Addison just sent us a, who was also, you know, in that in that scene, just sent us a text message of like a video of our buddy Jeff and a few other people just like being in San Francisco at that era and, you know, social era, mobile was coming out. It felt like really exciting. Could you talk more about like, and you were in it too, dude. Like you were. Yeah. You were at Dig, which was like one of the most, you know.

hottest startups in social at the time path one of the hottest mobile startups at the time talk like what was it like in your in your mind being in s f at that time because like we've got thousands of listeners who just like well weren't they one one one thing i'd say is that okay that's definitely 2008 you know financial crash of its own right you know that's the year i got to sf um You know, everyone now knows SF to be displaced for people are way overpaid, like the minimum, like, salary out of college for a good CS degree is like something crazy, you know, like everyone basically has expense lifestyles with like free mini kitchens and laundry and buses and stuff. And I think the one thing I'll say is like when you got to SF 2008, like there wasn't a ton of money floating around. Like it wasn't like every company that was alive was overfunded and, you know, there was just cash everywhere.

It was kind of like this, it was this place where you went there because you're just attracted to hanging out and seeing what other people were building, you know, and it wasn't because it was super lucrative. I'd argue, you know, Facebook, sorry, Google had done public, but it really was probably until Facebook IPO 2012 or so when things got kind of crazy, you know. And so I'd say it was great about that period. That's for the same time, you know, Addison was out there and we all, you know, so many friends, friends that I keep to this day, lifelong friends were made. was it was just like, hey, what are you up to? What are you building? My first apartment was in Hayes Valley because it was the place I could afford, not because Hayes Valley, which is now like the cool,

the cool kids, little mid-market area. It's not just like you were kind of just surviving and trying to build stuff. And like, again, it wasn't this crazy, like, overvalued time. It was just a lot of fun. I think, frankly, there were so many people that had such bad, terrible, apocalyptic experiences with the first bubble, like 2000s, that they would almost like laugh about this idea of Web 2 or people doing startups again and like trying to make businesses or whatnot to figure it out.

And, you know, a lot of that was fair because a lot of those companies didn't make it. But what's funny is some of them are still still going strong today. Yeah, and it was a fun time. I think what was cool about SF in that time in or, you know, I don't know if your question is just about SF or Web 2, but I think what was so cool about the time was he had bumped shoulders casually with some of the best builders ever with like no agenda and there was no ego just like hey oh shoot like oh you're working on that like oh tell me more uh and you're like would you want to get a burrito like you know walk around the mission like get a ferreelito or something or grab beer somewhere

and and it was uh it was just a really i don't know it was just a really so yeah a couple Three time. Yeah. A couple things here. So first of all, I completely agree. Like the start, like today, like there's tons of startups that are like flush with cash. Back then, like even the startups that were quote unquote flush with cash. Like when we we didn't, there wasn't that much money there.

It was very much like us versus them. Like didn't path, you know, I don't know. Yeah, Path was tried or Google tried to buy Path at one time. And I remember like, I think it was like $100 million. or more. And I remember, like, everyone was kind of like, no, we can't do, like, path users were like, no, no way. They can't do it. Like, it felt very us and them now. I mean, I guess it feels like that a little bit, or sorry, it felt very us versus them back then. It still feels that way a little bit now, but it's not, it was way, it felt way more of that back then. Do you agree?

Yeah. I think back then everything was just a little faster loose because you didn't know what you didn't know, right? Like, I think 2010, that particular year, things changed. The iPhone 4 changed. Like, it was like a seismic shift, right? Finally, the camera was good enough, right? And then in the following years, as connections got better and, like, the mobile, your cellular connection got better, there was a seismic shift. And so there was no, like, right or wrong way to do things, right? Whereas I'd say, like, if you look at consumer now, like, I think it's a pain cave for a founder to go out without some angle or strategy and how they're going to be. at distribution, you know, like what advantage of you're going to have? Because say you make something

great, it's going to get copied or snatched up by somebody so fast, you know? And so, yeah, I think especially around then, it was a little bit of the Wild West that you didn't know, but you were undergoing the shift to mobile a lot. And I know there was an entire solo movement, which made me cringe at the time. It still makes me cringe to say it out loud today. But like, explain what that is. For people who don't know what that is. Well, there are pillars that now sound really. really damn obvious, which is like, can you make social location, mobile experiences or companies or products? And yeah, at the time it was an entire wave, right? Like, it began with like the first

I think it's, you know, South by 2009 where you had horsewear and gawala, you know, and it's like at the now seems so medieval and primitive to be like, oh, my phone knows where a GPS. I might be able to check in to a place where I'm at, right? And obviously, so many people have built on that, right? But yeah, it's there was this crazy Cambrian explosion of people, you know, taking different bits and Legos and assembling different ideas, you know, off of these like big, new things that were unlocked, right? Like Goala was the competitor and it's cool to see Josh Williams and co. And he's gotten like a lot of that original Goala team back and they're out trying to do it again. But you know, Gawal was at the exact same time and was building some very

different things with little collectibles and little like passports, you know, that you, you could drop or leave for others, you know? And so those were just the first two. Like I think, you know, there were so many other companies that got going around that time, you know, obviously Instagram won at all at that time, you know, but there's so many others, right? Like, they're, I mean, so, I give it, it's, it's, it kind of is a reminder that like any given moment, especially like when you talking about Web 3 or any like next generation of companies. Yeah, a ton of the things that sound great and awesome are probably going to go, you know, be like, be, you know, erased or or or or or not make it. But yeah, it was it was a fun time. Yeah. So my mind just randomly thought of Vine

for a second and I was like, oh, I miss, I miss Vine. I don't know Vine is firmly under the solo. It was definitely this social and mobile. Oh, there's a ton of location stuff in there, but yeah, Vine. I'm fine. Vine is crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think like Vine had a magic moment for so many people when people downloaded it and it felt just so different. Like it was six seconds, I think, right? Those six second videos.

And it was also so, you know, we're talking about particle, like really well designed. Like Vine was also really well designed. Totally. And I think the other cool thing about it was you, I mean, it was the precursor to TikTok, of course, like you could post something on Instagram, get no love, but post something on Vine. And like, you know, I have a friend, you know, I had random, like my friend Jerome Jar who got like millions of followers on Vine was like this random French guy who just would post funny videos and then change his life, you know. And yeah, I think that's the crazy,

the crazy part to me is that probably there's hundreds of millions, there's a generation of TikTok, either users or creators who probably may not even remember Vine. But, yeah, Vine is definitely in the DNA. You know, like the looping video, the talent show, like how funny can you be within those constraints, you know? Even the idea of stitching things together, right? Like, obviously, Biden wasn't the first to do that, but they were the first really to bring that, you know,

that mechanic out there. Yeah, I miss it. Now, Candle, the only thing, they died a slow and painful death. But, you know, it's just the nature of our industry, right? like everyone's kind of building on the shoulders of other people. Yeah, and it's, what a good app. I guess that's kind of where I want to shift gears a bit, which is, okay, I figured it out. I want to shift gears to we lived in San Francisco in our 20s during the height of, you know, social and mobile.

And we partook in that economy. And we had some really high highs and some really low lows, right? Yeah. I can picture them. out and um there's a whole like we were the young kids then like we were the gen z back then right like we were we were the up-and-comers now and we're in our 30s like we're we've been there and done that and we're kind of older so what like what can what do you take away from your time doing social mobile sf that you can impart to the next generation in terms of how

How do you build products that people are going to love? You know, one thing I'd say, there's a lot to unpack there, but it's funny when you said Ben there, done that, I actually, something I try to pride myself in is the notion of the beginner's mind. But just because, you know, you maybe learn a particularly painful lesson or you learn, you tried something that didn't work, that you can like continue to, like, keep that freshness and that enthusiasm to keep exploring. you know, things you're interested in.

It's funny how I said I would never work in consumer social again, but look at where I am now. It's like, how do we end up back here? One thing I'd say with the benefit of hindsight on that time was the joy of beginning, the joy of starting, was a superpower, right? Like something I tell all kinds of young people is when they get started, especially designers and creatives in our industry,

is like, you may not be money-rich, but you're definitely time-rich. And when you're time wealthy, which means you have like a ton of times, like work nights and weekend and like work maybe on a schedule that it would be uncomfortable for a lot of other people who have other like whatever, who have like kids or whatever. There's nothing wrong with having kids, by the way. It's just that you can try more things and you can be a beginner much more frequently. And that's something I think is super important, you know, like especially as our industry gets fuller and fuller people. just like you and I who have had a certain set of experiences and certain years out there,

all those people who want to tell you like how you should be doing things or how you should approach things or, let me tell you about that time we were growing LinkedIn or let me tell you about that time we were making Tinder grow on USC and New UCLA's campus. And it's like, okay, sure, maybe it worked that way then, but it may not work that way now.

And I think that that was one thing in SF that really caught on. If some of my most painful memories or like when you're listening to the experts or listening to like the people would bend there, done that, tell you how you need to be growing or tell you how you need to be approaching a problem. You know, it was often really bad advice. And so, yeah, I don't know,

there's one story that actually resonates really specifically with me, which is we were, you know, all in on mobile and like building out apps for the iPhone and Android. And literally there was someone who insisted that because his grandmother didn't have a smart phone, phone when you like dedicate two web engineers to sending out an email digest to her for her to like you know be able to follow and in hindsight now i'd be i would tell that person to fuck off but in the moment you're like oh wow this is a very experienced smart person who's telling us about the total

addressable whatever being back that and the other okay yes let's spend two of our four web engineers that makes sense right um and and yeah what i'd say i don't want to cherry pick on that person But I'd say, like, in general, as Seth, I'll probably carry these values with me lifelong, that there will always be some notion of, like, experts are like the right people, telling you how things need to be. And that especially in consumer, the way you would grow, it's constantly evolving, right? It's so dynamic. Yeah, I'm curious for you, but your take, because I know that we had, we experienced

some of the highest, and lowest lowest together. I'm very curious for you. But you flip the question on you. you know, what comes to mind. Well, I mean, going back to our earlier conversation about where the pot is going, like, I want to bring on builders. Like, I don't want to bring on VCs. Like, and I think that, and this is kind of a hot take, I think, but just because you invest in a company,

doesn't mean it's your company. So a lot of VCs, what they'll say is, oh, one of our companies, oh, so they invested out of their fund. which they invested from LPs, so not even their own money. They're going and they invest. And then they're saying, oh, part of full? Yeah. That's one of our companies. Yeah.

Sorry, Chad. Yeah. But just because you wired the money does not, you are not in the trenches and you are not in the trenches. You play a meaningful role in your connection with the business and it wouldn't exist in its current state without you. But I still think that, you know, I much rather, when I, when I'm training notes around building consumer products, I want to talk to Shreta. I don't want to talk to the VC here.

Yeah. Like I think, yeah, all perspectives are valuable that I can agree with you that I know there's some sometimes folk like VCs are a little like, it's almost like a claiming credit for the success of the cup, singular credit. I mean, it's like, yeah, of course you help them. But like, it's, yes, it's a little dirty when they, it's almost. almost like they're taking credit for the success of this. It was especially funny, though, is when they take credit years after or, like, talk shade. What's worse is not even taking credit when they talk shade on a founder who has been successful after them, whatever. And I think that's an entire other tangent.

But yeah, man, like, builders tend to be the most fun to hang out with, you know, shared misery and shared joy, you know, of the process. and yeah I don't know I mean that's how that's how we bonded like we bonded I don't know if you remember but we it was right before you know

you had a trip out we went to what was that beer garden in South Pacific Southern Pacific yeah yeah and I remember exactly where we were we were at the second

level and you were just telling me about free which you should tell people what it was because it was like ahead of its time so like crazy ahead of its time. And it was so right on so many levels. And you were having a hard time, frankly.

Like in, you know, and, you know, not because you weren't executing well, just because startups are difficult and consumer social is difficult. And teams are hard. And we were bonding over that shared misery, I think. But yeah, tell folks what we was. the timing, you know, because I think it's relevant. Well, so I'll give some context that basically at Path, one of my last things I worked on was our Messenger.

And I remember I literally put the Targaryen symbol to dragon symbol from Game of Thrones on the room when we shipped that messenger. And mind you, this is before Facebook Messenger got their act together. Like your Facebook Messenger was like a very basic thing at the time. And we wanted really build like what would be what would be paths take, you know, on a messenger and like kind of went crazy there. And so all say is from building that messenger saw, holy cow, the numbers around a messenger are just different, you know? Like we also technically have the same loop as stories, but you now would consider stories where you could post a photo and

someone like, post a photo once a day and like come back like five, ten times a day to see who else has seen it because that's what we call them seen it. But the numbers change for messenger. Like the amount of time somebody uses that happens to messenger just like crazy. Right. And so I was like, okay, I really want to go build a messenger, but I want to build a messenger with the purpose, and the purpose is, like, it owns that first message in the conversation. And the classic pitch I'll tell everyone is, like, reminds you of like this Zezan's sorry joke where he says, like, if you look at my phone on a Sunday, that was like a psycho, because I'm texting all my friends, hey, want to grab brunch, hey, want to grab brunch, hey, want to grab brunch, hey, want to grab brunch,

you know. I think our friend Nikita has a funny joke where he says like every social founder at one point chose a bank an app for like getting people to hang out together, IR. And it's, it's so true. I think free is definitely my my version of that lesson. I think free, yeah, it was the other way I would refer to it was like I grew up on AOL

Instant Messenger and I missed the green dot. When you'd go home, sign in and see your buddy, let's see who's green. And like for the green people, you could chat with them. And they were your friends. And I wanted that for the real world. And so I just wanted to see who was free at any given moment. And like the horn of gond or like the bat signal or whatever. We built it. I won't bore

you with all the details or built more of the people. year little details but solve so many problems i think there are pieces of its new user experience onboarding that still echoed a lot of apps today um you know i i i um we had a ton of fun building it but also a ton of yeah a ton of joy ton of misery um and yeah i i think uh when at the time i i also remember distinctly that they were at southern pacific i think it was one of those moments where the founder you kind of like you have you start to get a muscle for sketching out nine 12, 18 months in advance even, which at the time as a 22, 23 year old I was not very good at, you know. And I was like, damn, I think this is, I don't know.

I don't know what's happening here. And what I'll say is I think a lot of my conversation with other founders today, and I see myself with so many founders I hang with today, like, it's that realization of like, damn, I don't know who else I can talk with like this, you know, because they're using, because thinking about it, with a team, you should like give great, you know, you're trying to keep the inspiration, like, that, that energy on Mondays and through the week of like, yeah, here's the vision. And like, maybe your investor updates, maybe you don't know truly how to be that candid, like, you know, or to speak that bluntly.

So you also want to, like, inspire confidence and faith in the team. And I think it's a very special type of, like, trusted relationship. It can be good investors too, but or like other founders or operators you, you, you, you, you, you trust. But it's a very specific type of relationship where you can, like, kind of share that, you know. and talk through it and really sketch out all the options, you know, for what they all look like. Yeah, and I remember that day. It was a special day and a special weekend, but we don't have to dive into that. You know, yeah, but that was a good, that was a meaningful, that was a really meaningful time.

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Yeah, I think you do have to put on a bit of a face when you're talking to your team or VCs or advisors, like it's hard to be 100% unfiltered, but with other builders, it's hard not to be, it's hard to be anything but 100% unfiltered, right? So it's your time to be like, okay, here's what's really going down. I'd really love your opinion on X, Y, Z. And I don't think I told, I don't know if I've said this on the pod yet, but every year, me and a group of six or entrepreneurs used to rent a house in LA and it was like a mastermind basically of founders and we actually hired a moderator and we hired like a chef and I know this is sound bougie as hell but like

not you know initially not a lot of us had money we just like poured it into this and we would sit there and we would all work on each you know work with each other unfiltered mastermind founders and Like we had like Sean Porey was one of those founders. Julian Smith, who you know, he's been on, he's a guest friend of the pod. You know, he came up with Breeder there. I came up with islands there. Flow water, Nicholas Reichenbach who create, you know, it's in every whole foods across the nation.

He came up with it there. It's now publicly traded company. And I've been thinking a lot about masterminds and I want people to hit me up if this is interesting to them. But like, we got, we got to, we got to bring it back, you know. I think it would be, I think it'd be awesome to bring it back. Yeah, I think it's awesome also because like, especially because so many of us live on Twitter and places like that where it's just like, you just, okay, there's a couple

things. So people are, you know, spend a lot of time on Twitter and you can't really get feedback really on places like that. And then big events, big conferences. and stuff like that, it's just like, you're not, it's so hard to find your people there. So like these smaller like six to eight, 10 high quality, trusted people, bring them together. Do, you know, do it proper. I feel like that, first of all, I know, I feel like that's, it's a huge opportunity for founders.

And also like, I feel like it needs to exist. And like, I also think you can build a business around that. I'll tell you, I had this weird epiphany other day, not epiphany, but just like how I think of things. And it's funny that we're talking about this is such a public or a semi-public forum. But it's like the more public a place is, even if it's for discussion, you know, conversation, the more judgment there is. And I think judgment, like the level of judgment in an area is inversely correlated to how like actually meaningful. the interactions are going to be you know like think that on twitter like oh it went viral with 300 000 likes you know you feel this like dopamine rip of like wow all these awesome people may

have liked it or a lot of people saw it but like how meaningful was that versus a room that's low judgment whereas someone can bring up some really deep shit or like some whatever's on their chest and like talk about it and know that like no this is not like something that's going to people like screenshot and share around and all that toxic you know whatever stuff is going to go there but it's a to some meaningful place. And so, yeah, I think about, at least from builders, you thrive in low judgment zones. Look, I've never been to Burning Man,

and I think everyone has their say. It's now actually a high judgment zone from the Pina Gallery of, like, what actually happens at Burning Man these days. But I think the idea of a place where people can actually kind of let their hair down and be themselves amongst similar, you know, amongst other people, whether they know them well or not, and to share ideas and talk to,

this shit. Sounds kind of awesome. So anyways, your mastermind sound dope. I mean, I'd love the, I'd love to join the one that you, the first one you do when you bring them back, you know? Yeah, I mean, maybe we can even share this. Like, I think it needs to be sort of like, it also needs to be fun, right? Like, so we would do, you know, 50% like structured, okay, everyone has a certain amount of time. These are the questions you can ask. Like, I think the structure is really important. That's why the moderator is key to the whole thing. And then we would have fun at like night times, like dinner is going out. I don't know if we can show this image.

I saw like on a, like, you know, one time. The only time I've shot a gun was in L.A. at one of these events. Oh. And yeah, maybe we can like post the, like in the show notes. I'll find the picture. It's like 12 years ago. By the way, non-sponsored plug. If you ever want a cool place to shoot guns in a place that is,

about shooting guns drive tanks.com I don't even know if it's still around but it's in the mid it's like two hours outside of Austin you can literally drive tanks and then the belt it's like it's very safe they take care of for you and should you desire to you know they'll like a used car like they'll let you aim the cannon and shoot it also you let you shoot a howitzer I actually now remember you can also shoot actual guns like like very decals like mini guns it's very safe very supervised very like team offsite E energy, but it's a great place to, you know, like, go blow off some steam, you know? It's pretty cool.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm, I think if you're going to do an offsite mastermind type thing like that, like put it around something like that. So you also have these like new experience. Like how many times have you driven a tank? Like for me, like never, right? So then like, not that I really want to drive a tank at all or shoot a gun, but like the fact that I'm going to do this with this group is like a bonding experience. Yeah. I'm sorry, I just open drivetanks.com and look at their sizzle reel on their front page.

And it's pretty, it's pretty awesome, you know. Oh, man. This is literally amazing. First of all, wow. So what I'm looking at is I can't believe this exists. It looks like, it's a tank literally going over, a fully like tank that could be in Iraq. or whatever, like going over a car and, like, shooting missiles from it. Look, I've done this. I've done the, like, crush a car underneath it. I've definitely done the shot. And I actually like, this website's a pretty good, you know, like, when I'm talking

about like conversion, like front page conversions, I'm like, it's so simple. It's called drivetanks.com. The three offerings are drive a tank, shoot a tank, shoot big guns. You know, they got to the point really quickly. It's pretty good. Okay, I'm pulling up the price list. I'm curious how much this cost. Wow.

Okay. So there's a bunch of tanks. They've got like 12 different types of tanks. I got to be real with you all. I have no idea what the different tanks are. But the cheapest tank to drive is going to cost you $600. Yeah. Yeah, which is totally doable.

The most expensive, like, baller, you came up with a billion dollar idea today at the end of the mastermind is the stub three it's $2,200. You know, some good. And yeah, I'm not, I'm really not here to bug them. I think they have some packages too. But you know, hey, from what people spend on like bottle service in the club versus a once in a lifetime memory driving a tank, you know, I think they're, you know, yeah. Cool.

No, I'm happy you made. I'm happy you talked about that. So no, I think, yeah, I think it's really important to, to, to, to drive tanks at your at your at your at your mastermind and I think like um yeah just do do things that are that are going to open you up both on on the structured piece of it of coming up with ideas but also on the bonding piece of it too yeah um yeah cool um going back we talked a little bit about you know sort of Web 2, SF, but before that, we talked about Web 3, and I want to understand what Danny Trin's current state, you know, lay of the land of how you're feeling about Web 3 and right now.

Oh, gosh. I think my short answer would be, you know, it is definitely absurdly winter. I think there's a lot of really cool people that I'm seeing charging forward and continuing to build. And I think it's kind of poetic that one of them is Kevin. You know, I think he recently just moved down to L.A. And like there's really building out the proof team from my understanding there and like really going for it. I'm really excited. Yeah. And it's yeah, it's crazy last week.

Yeah, I just realized that a bunch of other great people in that same crew and family are all there and kind of pushing. And so I'll say like it's kind of awesome to see, you know. that that same kind of what's the right word for it yeah the perseverance and also the conviction to keep going like it's awesome to see

now overall Web 3 a lot of other crazy shit like Doe Kwan you know he's got Interpol he's got a code right on out for him that's kind of awesome sorry I don't want to I don't want to laugh at other people's misfortune I think it's just you know

there's all kinds of corrections on the good and bad and yeah It's a spicy time. I mean, it's absolutely winter. So, you know, a lot of the jokers are going to leave. A lot of the tourists are going to leave. And it's definitely for the best. I think this time last year, you're probably at peak hype mania.

Just bled up like bad. Okay, I want to probably some point. Not bad. It was all bad. Just that there was just a lot of noise that probably wasn't healthy. Absolutely. healthy. Yeah, we're back to winter. If you believe in the space, you believe in the space. If you're someone who was talking shit about it all for the last 18 months of the years,

you feel very right. You feel very validated. I don't think this will be the last winter. I think there will absolutely be a future here. And yeah, I'm excited to see how it all goes down. Yeah, I think if anything, it's good that teams can be quiet and less distracted. I think about it, if you had a team in this space over the last 18 months, especially on the run-up, you're probably dealing with a bunch of more than 18 months years. You're dealing with a bunch of crazy distractions or probably everyone's trying to hire other other people, constantly wondering, like, am I working on the right thing? Am I missing out on like life-changing opportunity, working on something else or trading something else or whatever? And now that things are more

quiet, like there's going to be a ton more folks who are just focusing, like, you know, kind of really peer about things and doing it and, you know, making the moves they want to make. I think we'll see where it all nets out. Who even knows what the rest of the world nets out, you know, right now. Like, I think we're probably another six to nine months of a minimum of, like, sliding into finding where the bottom of darkness is. So it's something I definitely know. I don't think about it every day.

It's not my day job. But it's definitely something I'm keeping tabs on, you know? Yeah. How do you, like, I know, I know you've got a day job, but I do know that you're also. like a lot of Web 2 founders in that era, like we talked about Josh Williams, like he's in Web 3 now, Kevin Rose, Web 2, you know, prolific Web 2 founder. He's in Web 3. I've been doing a lot of Web 3 stuff and a lot of our friends in that, you know, Donnie Dinch, Web 3 now. What do you, like, why do you think we're attracted to Web 3 and why do you think that we're still excited about it? and do you have like are you less or more excited about it been let's say a year ago I so there's something that there's some advice I gave about this stuff to

literally this time last year to someone that was just getting into it I was like you need a divorce two brains if you're a product builder in this space one is like why you're building and why you're building what you're excited about and the second is like degenerative greed Dgen greed on like trading and making money because I'm like if you let the two brains come together it's going to get very messy for you and your enthusiasm and your motivation is going to be this like toxic mix of why are you building you know and so I think obviously for anyone that's in it for degenerative the Dgen greed they've lost a ton of enthusiasm as things pull down and then you got to like you know seek shelter but I think for a lot of people they're building it for what I would call the right reasons which are like

the primitives are changing and it's the promise of like a better future. Yeah, I think a lot of those people and everyone I talk to is it's almost like this as usual. Like they're continuing on amidst the challenge, right? And this is not the first or last time that people in this space have dealt with crazy challenges or being told they're completely wrong and silly. Like it's funny to me. I actually remember probably around that time, 2016 and you and I were hanging out in Southern Pacific where like, I feel like it was chatbots, AI, and crypto were like the three like laughing. Like, you could, like, the butt end of every joke, right? Like, oh, remember that person who worked on chatbots?

Remember that person who worked on crypto stuff? Remember that person who worked on AI? And it's kind of funny now, at least in 2022, that I'm like, AI, like, nothing to joke about with AI. Like, some of crazy, truly, like, crazy shit is happening before our eyes. Like, making it into very, like, into the mainstream, right? Crypto, like, and no one's laughing about, I mean, you may laugh at the collapse, but, like,

you're laughing at that collapse, laughing at the economy's collapse, which is, you know, you know that that that's your prerogative and maybe at chef-outs yeah like if anyone's working on a chat spot now I'd still be like what do you do in there uh folks um but so so what I did is like what are you doing there folks like that's probably my PC uh it's my like PC uh whatever but like but you know it's cycles right and like I think the thing about people who are generally excited about these things like their enthusiasm gets tested and retested and the ones that tended to last through multiple winters and do the best for the ones that keep persisting right like if your

conviction in some of these spaces is so low that you get you know you you can drop this quickly you probably aren't working in the right space you know um and if anything i think one thing we can't and i is that the the conversations changed right like the conversation on the types of people who are interested in this stuff and the types of things are building is is now like we've opened we've gone through a one-way door right because so many major company, somebody major, like, universes of IP are into this now, it's going to be really exciting to see what happens. I think that's the one thing about right now. You're like, oh, are you so excited about it? I'm like, well, whether I am or I'm not excited about it, I'm absolutely not going

to ignore it. You know, like, the thing about it right now is like it's typically the people that ignore shifts like these are the ones who are the cautionary tales. It's like the Nokia guy talking shit about the iPhone, you know, or like, all the, like, the big consumer web apps that were, like, they're kind of shitting on, like, the move to mobile in general, you know? And, yeah, it's, I think typically the folks who were default dismissive of, of interesting new things that typically take years to bore out. Those are the ones that, like, you know, history always remembers as the fools.

And so I think right now, look, tough times, like, guess what? been here before multiple times you know and so i i think it's um it's interesting to see you know so who knows what are your those with this all bears what are your thoughts uh on web three loyalty i saw a few weeks ago Starbucks obviously launched a a really big push into loyalty i'm curious uh what you think i think around that that's in the i hope that a recording of this podcast doesn't become I'm gonna cautionary tell me sounding like an idiot a few years from now. I think my immediate reaction is like, it's cool to see them build. It's cool to see an experiment.

Back to where you're talking about SF 2008, it's like when I was teenagers, still my youngster and a beginner's mind at hard, I'm like, it's awesome to see people experimenting. Even it doesn't work out on like net net, something they did in that experiment will probably be a building block that someone else grabs and uses and takes off. I think Starbucks is probably going nowhere. Maybe this is like the funny quote where like, do you? years from now, Starbucks implodes. But, like, I don't think Starbucks is going anywhere.

So cool them to experiment with some stuff. Maybe they'll change their approach. Maybe they won't. You know? It's kind of like motor before the iPhone, Motorola made the rocker with Apple, which had a 99 song limit on it. And everyone thought, like, if this is the iPhone, this is not the future. I'm like, okay, I think people will experiment with loyalty stuff just as, like,

music entities are trying to figure out what the, like, yeah, what the fuck that actually all it means, you know? but yeah I think that's essential to getting there there's a book I really love about like you know like a good model for innovation is like you have artists and soldiers right

and like they're defined by their relationship with risk right and so like soldiers are fundamentally about low risk because you don't want to kill everybody and artists are fundamentally about high risk you're rewarded to take lots of risks and to fail a lot fail a lot and typically soldiers and artists hate each other's guts

because they misunderstand each other like soldiers are artists and like you don't do any work you don't have any discipline you're just trying a bunch of stuff that goes nowhere and artists look at soldiers like you're so like like unafraid of trying anything new and like you're so you're like you're like you're going to be like left behind and i would say that's the moment where we are right now like in one of these like you know winters where the artists and the soldiers look at each other and and think the other one is the fool right like there are many artists like you're talking about don't like you're talking to look some great friends they're going to continue to push on and try things

Starbucks, what not. Like, I think there's a ton of other companies trying to stuff. And the soldiers who are, like, trying to survive, you know, in economic recession or worse, are looking at them like, you idiots. I can't believe you're continuing to move on, you know? And that's my take of right now is that it's artists and soldiers. I use this same model, actually, like, where people who are working teams where you have an office still,

you know, the people who come in super early and also leave early, and people who come in super late and leave late. And I'm like, oh, there's those two people, people judge each other just at different times of the day. Like those early people come in, they're like, oh, I can't believe so-and-so's not here yet. And then those people that come in late, see, those early people leaving earlier,

you're like, oh, I can't believe you're calling it. You're throwing in the towel so early, you know? And so, you know, fleshing at my answer here. I think when I look at stuff like Starbucks, or I see people trying out stuff, I'm like, okay, I think I net bias towards the artist lens, which is I love seeing people try stuff, even if it goes, you know, to zero and fails.

Because that's what gives me energy. you know like seeing people like take take a shot now yeah i do i advise the artist lifestyle for soldiers or the soldier lifestyle for artists no um and so you know i think especially when you look at something as polarizing as web through right now it's like really easy for folks on both sides get really entrenched in their positions um and so maybe my my last thing on this long ramble i'd say is like i would ask someone where they think they are like deep down on it and if they could empathize for a second for a little bit with the other side And that's my take on Web 3.

It's a look in the mirror for how you feel about these things in general. And so someone who's a soldier by day works a big company life and only like scales things. Looks like two to five to 10 percent, God forbid gains. Looks at some of these moves as like really risky or like career ending. And I'm like, okay, that's just what for the way you're doing. It's cool that people are experimenting. Like it's like and I think, you know, I'm happy that on on the start you know from a startup of one to a startup of Starbucks or a company of Starbucks like that we're kind of we're not taking the status quo as like okay this is the world we live in and like these are the products that exist.

No, we're going to like push the envelope over here, push the envelope over here, try different things. And we'll find out what what is going to resonate with with folks. Yeah. But I think it's cool that, first of all, I love the soldier artist and, like, kind of way of thinking about it. And I also think it's cool that I happen to be on your camp. Like, I love, like, when I see people on Twitter, for example, like, seeing the launch of a startup and being like, but actually, you know, like the but actually guy. But actually, this is a bad idea because XYZ. And it's like, no, like, we need to celebrate people builders.

yeah I mean if anything think about like I look at this like if you're a meme account that loves to like trade on being like you know making hilarious jokes but other people and god knows I love a good meme and I love I love there's so many accounts I find very hilarious but net net I think a lot of those meme accounts pander to like the soldier type who likes to be you know like yeah duh look at that failure or like oh so clearly dad or like oh got him you know got him yeah got him and you You know, like, ooh, and I'm like, okay, go back to your, like, whatever life, you know? Like, they chuckle at the meme. They heart it and they move on with their, like, whatever the fuck they're doing for the rest of the day. And it's like, okay, you know, the, it is, it's what makes this account successful. And, like, it's what gets their engagement up, you know? And I can't knock that hustle either because they're slowly trying to, like, get, like, blow up and then make a business, I'm sure, whatever they're doing, like, and be hilarious. It's just not, you know, I'd like to think in my pure heart that I'm not there, even though I know I'm probably very guilty of that same type of dunking sometimes.

But yeah, like, I think that's on the spectrum of like soldiered artists, like the audience of the people like giving all that like feedback of like, God, I'm are just like, they intend not to be artists. You know, like that's fine. It's totally fine. Yeah. Cool. That's a mic drop. I think that's a lot for people to digest and think about where they sit on the spectrum and artist versus soldier. And D. Trin, you're your family. You know, you're not just a friend of the pod. You're in the family. So thanks for coming back on. And where could people find you on the internet? Yeah, just D. Trin is my Twitter. And what I'd say is I hope you stay safe with Hurricane Ian. I hope that maybe when this comes out there, hopefully. early hurricane is well past, you know, or else your hair's going to get a lot more wet,

you know what I mean? You're going to recording a podcast, like in the little hurricane. But yeah, it's always a good time. A lot of event bright RSPPs, you know, Hurricane Ian. It's just hidden that event bright RSVP a few times. Yeah. But yeah, wishing you all the best, man. And candidly, I think, if anything, this is just like a semi-public FaceTime with you. So I'm, like, I'm glad to catch up and then see. Yeah. hear your voice. It's great to see. It's great to hear you.

And that's like, that's the new vision of the where it happens pod is just like catching up with friends basically publicly who are interesting in creators, commerce, and community. And then people listen to this and you're going to be smarter because you're going to listen. You know, you might not agree with everything we say. Oh, shit. Yeah. Go for it, Danny. No, I have a crazy idea for your format.

I mean, if you call it like based on my friends, could be literally like your screen recording and like you're actually it's like it's like to keep it authentic. It's like, maybe you tell, it's almost like, remember like who wants to be a millionaire. You would tell the phone or friend people roughly to be available in case their friend was on the show and they're being called. But like you could show literally you face-timing some people and they're not there. They hang up or like they say like they don't answer the call and then finally someone picks up and they're like, Yatsy, you know. And like, and that's who we got this week, you know. But like you just keeping it real. They're like, hey, yeah, we try to few people like,

you know and then bam like right now we're just going to face time with friends and keep it super chill i like it i mean dude there's enough interview podcast like where it's like okay hey like so tell me about tell me your story and it's like okay i went to here and went to there it's like no i think that's you know going back to like the trenches and stories and the trenches i think people that's i think that's what people want to hear yeah yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah and being episode number one of the V2 of where it happens. And, you know, folks stick with us because it's going to be a good time and you're not going to want to miss it. So thank you so much.

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