The Startup Ideas Podcast - Minting Billionaires and the Religion of Bitcoin with Meltem Demirors

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

Is bitcoin a religion? It might sound like a joke, but cryptocurrency is unlocking a whole new world of opportunity and wealth creation. In this episode of Where It Happens, Meltem Demirors (@melt_dem) explores whether the institutions of the future will look like the institutions of the past. Hosts Sahil Bloom (@sahilbloom) and Greg Isenberg (@gregisenberg) discuss the different ways that the Web3 movement is challenging traditional organizational structures, and how the role of community will influence the businesses of the future.Want more community? Learn more here: http://trwih.comSPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORSThis episode is brought to you by Tegus. Tegus is the fastest way for investors and M&A teams to learn everything they want to know about a company, all from an on-demand digital platform. Tegus is the most extensive source of instantly-available 1:1 conversations between investors and experts, covering companies from the seed stage to the public markets. Just log in for instant access to 25,000+ transcripts. They are offering you a free 2-week trial at tegus.co/room.This episode is also brought to you by Beam. We can’t get enough of their Dream Powder. We both personally take this before bed a few times a week and wake up refreshed in the morning. Their nano-CBD helps improve your body’s ability to absorb CBD, making their product the perfect supplement before you go to bed. And now Beam is offering $20 off any order of $75 or more with the code ROOM at beamorganics.com/room.

Wow, that was a crazy episode that we just filmed with Meltem DeMeres. Absolutely insane. Unfiltered. She has no filter, which is what I love about her. Unbelievable. She lives in the future. Yeah, she's crazy smart. Has some pretty mind-bending ideas about ways to take crypto and how crypto as a religion

can actually start to promote the space broadly. So we got into a deep. It was crazy fascinating. I know you guys are going to enjoy it a lot. So let's just dive right in. By now, you know that I love going down rabbit holes. And today, I get to share one of my secret tools with you, Teegis. In today's market, we don't have time to spend weeks getting up to speed on a new company, industry, or idea.

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Listeners, just go to beamorganics.com slash room and use code room at checkout. Again, that's B-E-A-Morganics.com slash room and use code room at checkout to get $20 off any order of 75 or more. I feel like you're more crypto than I am right now because you're wearing the waggmy shirt. Wow. I wore it for you. What is he opposing? Is he, you know?

I've worked up. I wore it for you. I did not wear a wagner shirt. Like what's up with that? He's like a new vo crypto. Yeah, maybe I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing. Wow. That's what the W stands for, right?

Yeah. No, I did, I literally worried for you. Have you trapped this NFT game, Wolf? No, what is it? It's like a wolf game and there's sheep and like you shave the sheep and you get wool. Honestly, people will say a word, any word, and it triggers me because there's like a crypto thing that involves it. Okay. Like say a word.

Say a random word. Baseball. Okay. Baseball. NFTs, NFT baseball cards. You say a word. It's surprisingly hard to come up with a random word on the spot, by the way. I struggled with that.

I was like, uh-uh. I mean, pants. Pants. Ooh, like fashion NFTs for pants. And also UNISOPs to go with your pants. A hundred fifteen thousand dollar pair of socks. Do you know about UNISOX? No.

Fire. What are UNISOX? Fire. It's how many socks in the issue? Like 500. Something like that. Yeah, so Uniswap issued a token called Unisops that entitled you could redeem the token for physical pair of, like, white Mihae socks that have the pink unicorn on the side. That's actually kind of fire.

And those tokens are now trading at anywhere from like 115 to 140,000. Do you still get the physical socks? No. So you redeem. You have to redeem the token. Oh. But like when people go to an event, they'll wear their unisox. And it's the biggest flex ever because there be a guy in the corner wearing like a fancy.

watch and like head to toe design or whatever, and there's like a random crypto person in the corner wearing their uniseachs. You're like that person's literally wearing, you know, a range rover on their feet right now. But that's kind of fire. I went to the Etherox party that you hosted, which was absolutely fire. Great party. Meltem Thore was absolutely bomb party. So if you ever get invited to one, you got to go. But I went to this party and like the biggest thing with it that I came away with other than the fun time was like this whole idea of we're all status signaling monkeys at the end of the day. That's like we go through life, whether we know it or not, whether we're willing to admit it or not, just like trying to status signal that we are like attractive, that we're

rich, whatever, just so that you can procreate and have sex. Like that's human nature or whatever. It's the reality of it. But that's why I bought an etherox. So the minute I looked at Etherox is like, this is the perfect digital flex because the image itself is a free clip art image. There's zero originality in it. The metadata, it's not even an ERC-721 token, the metadata associated with the ether-Rox, like, very vague because it was built in 2017. It was one of the first NFTs.

I didn't know that. Yeah, and so it's so interesting. Of course, I bought rock number 69. Of course. For the whole. What did you pay for that? I paid 9th when I bought it. It's now probably worth, like,

an ether rock just sold for 200Eth. Kane Warwick bought rock number 62. So my neighbor. But what was really interesting about it is we've built this community now around Ether Rocks. We call it Stonehenge. So there's a bunch of different people in it. Some people get into Ether Rocks early.

Some people got into it later. Hirelobob, right? Bob, he bought four of them because he's a complete Chad. But what's really funny is we've kind of built this community around Ether Rocks. There's only 100 of them. There's about 70 of us in the chat together. And one of the things I realized, like, wait a minute, this is a community. Right? And a lot of what's happening here is you're signaling your belonging to a tribe. And what's the ethos of the Etherock tribe? Like, it's fun. It's weird. It's a little bit sassy because it's basically you're lighting money on fire, which is a flex in and of itself. And that's why I wanted to do the event. We're going to do an event here in Miami as well. That'll be, you know, similar, but slightly different from the one we did in New York. But Etherock ownership is like membership in an exclusive club. And what's really funny is, so I got an Apple Watch just to show off my Ether Rock.

And I was out with my friend. He was wearing his Rolex. I was wearing my Apple watch with the Ether Rock on it. We took a photo. I was like, which one of these is a bigger flex? I write a Rolex like $30,000 in Ether Rock at that point in time was $3 million. So it just helps sort of reshape our perception of a value. And so much of value is societal, right?

It's memetic. And again, scarcity is artificial, right? Like Rolex can make as many watches as they want. Gucci can make as many pairs of shoes as they want, right? And so again, I think what's been really interesting to explore is like there's a whole cadre of people in crypto who have made money, but they're not motivated by the same status symbols as prior generations. They don't want to buy yachts.

They don't want to buy private jets. They don't want to buy, you know, houses. They want to buy digital rocks. They want to buy unisox. They want to buy membership in Dow's. They want to build quick. things. So I think what's been really cool to see what I'm excited about, like my vision is, in the next decade, I want to mint a million new billionaires who have a radically different

view of what we should value as a society. I have a question about security. Okay. So. Greg is like, I'm concerned about your. Greg is concerned. This has been on my mind. So I just, I was in the Bahamas this weekend. Okay. Did you visit the FTX campus? I did not. That's on the main island, right? FDX campus. That's right. So you were in what?

Harbor Island. It's a tiny little island. It's a tiny little island. A little vacation. Had a little vacay. And Jack Butcher, who you might know, basically sold a bunch of nouns sort of apparel. And I've got some cryptodes.

You've got some cryptodes. Are you staking your cryptodes? I'm not staking my cryptodes. But I've got ones, the nouns ones, which are the most high-valued. So I bought some of the merch. Anyways, I'm packing for my trip, and I'm thinking to myself, like,

do I want to wear my nouns hat? Because I'm kind of signaling to the world, like, I've got a wallet. Right. I've got, like, some expensive stuff in it. And I'm curious, like, you know, in this world where we're all, you know, a lot of people are flexing, status, digital good, wallets. Like, do you feel ever kind of like, oh my God, I don't want other people to know that I have this?

Like, how do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I certainly am never going to wear a shirt that says swag me. I don't wear like crypto swag because, again, I think when I'm out in public, I don't necessarily want people to look at me and be like, oh, this person has crypto. This is kind of a poser shirt, though, to be fair. This is like the I'm poor, but I like crypto, yeah. Own it. Own it.

But no, it is something to think about. One of the areas I've been investing in a lot is OPSEC and InfoSAC. So one of the things, like I've been doing this for eight years professionally now, right? So it's been a hot minute. And so through that process, you know, my Bitcoin I managed through a company called CASA, which I'm an investor in, which is a multi-sig storage, long-term storage solution for your Bitcoin. Also a customer. Amazing.

How do you find it so far? Great. Great experience. We need to build the equivalent for Ethereum, right? Basically, the idea is like long-term, the things, the value, the things you want to hold, do you want to hold them in a secure way? So that's OPSEC and having good operational security, having a ledger or a hardware wallet or a UVK

linked to your software wallet, right, so that your assets can't be stolen. It's worth actually saying on CASA, it's an interesting example of this for like, you don't even have to have like that much crypto in order to make this worth it, but basically CASA, as I understand it, it's multi-sig. So rather than like right now,

if you have cash, you go put it in a bank account, and you trust that the bank is able to keep it safe for you, and you just hope that that's true. And if, like, the government one day freezes all your bank accounts and you don't have it, you don't have access to that money. And if you go to the bank account... And they've done that in the past, right?

It's happening to the Great Depression. Yeah, but also, like, when I want to spend my money at Chase, I've actually had multiple instances with J.P. Morgan Chase, so I think with where I can't send wires. And I have to go to physical bank branch. They lock my account. I have to go to physical bank branch with two forms of ID. I have a lot of questions that are, why are you sending this wire?

Where is it going to? What do you do for a living? And I'm like, is it. So it's not a $10,000 at a U.S. bank account. They have to flag it to the federal government. $10,000. Yeah, especially as far as far as. Absurd if you're going to get $10,000 in cash.

But CASA allows you to completely own the security of your crypto. Well, right now it's just Bitcoin. I would guess in the future they expand into other assets. But the other cool thing is they've also built an inheritance protocol, right? So if something should happen to, God forbid, right? They have a solution they've built that allows you to share some of the key. with family members, a trusted lawyer, third party. So there's something wherever to happen.

Your Bitcoin would be passed to your next of kin. But the other component that I think is really important that you're touching on is Infosec, information security. And this is where actually Twitter has been a really interesting tool for me. So I'm extremely visible online. And I share a lot online. God bless you. I talk to you and they're like, I feel like I know you because you share so much of your life.

That is how we became friends. That is how we became friends. through the internet. But what I'm doing effectively is people are not curious about me because they feel like they already know me. So it makes it easier to hide in plain sight and you practice really good info sex. So I don't receive mail at my house. I also receive it at a registered agent who receives my mail for me and forwards it on to me.

Packages get sent to PO box, right? You just have to think a little bit more about what you're disclosing and be really selective. I never tag locations on things. Typically, if I'm at an event, I won't share anything about it until I leave the event. So I think when you're in crypto, and again, as the world shifts and more and more of our lives become digital, like, forget crypto. Like, everything in our lives is digital. We as a society just have to become more mindful of information security, operational security, and how we safeguard these very important components of our identity, our privacy. And again, I think people are just now starting to build.

the tooling and infrastructure, it's not all crypto-related either, right? A lot of this is just basic knowledge and teaching people how to have good OPSEC and good InfoSec. This is an interesting, yeah, go ahead. What's the difference between OPSEC and InfoSec? So operational security is having processes in place. So for example, whenever I use my metamask, I'm going to plug into my ledger. And that's operational security. It's process driven, right? Okay. So when I'm performing various functions, I have a process that helps me be security, and how I do it. So it's like having manuals and guidebooks and a step-by-step process for how you do certain

things to do them securely. Information security InfoSec is how you keep data secure and how you obfuscate certain pieces of information like PII, personally identifiable information, to help you maintain information security. By the way, if someone hasn't coined the term practice safe infosec. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Someone do it.

Like someone do it. That's pretty, like that's the name. We should make sure. It's like I cracked a safe offset. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good. Sponsored by Trojan. It should be sponsored by Casa.

So shout out to make a jam. It's totally. I spoke to him last week. Me too. They're awesome. Super interesting. We've been on that journey together for almost three years now. I mean, it's been interesting because the mentality around security shifting, right?

A lot of people initially were like, oh, I'm not going to spend $125 or $1,000 or $5,000, right, the different pricing tiers on this. But as the value of crypto goes up and as people have NFTs and baseball cards that are digital, or maybe they have, like, I now have digital furniture, right? People start to think a little bit differently because, again, we're not accustomed to digital security. We think a lot about our physical security, but we never think about our digital security. So I think there is a fundamental paradigm shift. And I actually think one of the really interesting things, something I've been really excited about,

which I want to get into, is like I do feel like we're building the tools and the infrastructure. to start to enable new models for small communities to organize, to become more self-sovereign, and to build resilience and security through decentralization and permissionless, like, infrastructure in new and novel ways. And so I got a place in New Hampshire earlier this year. I've been spending a lot of time there with other Bitcoiners. I'm trying to get a lot of Bitcoiners to move to the area. The slogan for New Hampshire is live free or die, so it's very, like, apropos.

That was where I used to go as a kid to buy fireworks to go do stupid shit. It was because, like, New Hampshire, in Massachusetts, you couldn't get fireworks. And so we'd drive up to New Hampshire and go buy a bunch of fireworks to go do our dumb shit. And that was like you were allowed to. And you couldn't. There was no sales tax. No sales tax. No government theft.

And so we were able to drive up there and go do that stuff. Well, the government's very small, right? So what's interesting about New Hampshire is the government's very small. For example, like my trash gets picked up one day a week. And then on Saturdays I drive to the town dump. and you like take your own recycling. So it's very much like libertarian. It's much more libertarian culture.

A little bit, yeah. So talk about this idea. I want to go down the rabbit hole on this a little bit with you because it's fascinating. So sovereign city, states and crypto. Let's take one step back, though. So one of the things I've been really interested in lately is belief, right? So money is a collective fiction, right? And we don't need to get into this whole history of money.

like, let's start with the number zero. Humans are narrative. We're storytelling creatures. We are. Exactly, right? Like mythos, mythology, stories, that's how we've transmitted history through time. That's how we remember who we are, right? And the stories are really just like fragments we've pieced together.

They've changed and evolved over time to fit whatever narrative we're trying to create. And it's always the victors who tell the story, right? We tell our history. But there is this really interesting movement. So historically, right, people organized around. religion, around belief, like around their perception of what's happening, why we exist, what's going on. We have this really interesting shift that started to happen where our societies are no longer driven by organized religion, right? It's no longer really driven by your belonging to your

nation state, or like nationalism is not as prevalent as it was probably 20, 30 years ago. And so what's really interesting is there's this huge religious movement that's taking place. It's the spiritual but not religious movement or SBNR. And the Harvard School of Divinity has done a lot of great research in writing on this. And under their estimates, they estimate about 40% of the U.S. population is spiritual but not religious. They don't belong to religious organization. They're not a part of a church. And what's really interesting is globally this trend is also growing, right? With secularization of society, with people becoming more technologically oriented. So there's this really interesting spiritual void that's being created.

And people are filling it in different ways. I think crypto, I think Bitcoin was actually the first technocratic religion, which is super interesting, right? You have the myth of Satoshi, which is sort of the origin story. You have sort of the early days of Bitcoin in the Bitcoin Talk Forum, which is like our gospel. Like people quote Satoshi on a regular basis. I have like a set of Satoshi quotes I like to use.

And so we've built this mythology and this rich pantheon of characters. around Bitcoin. And what starts to become interesting, right, is how do we start to give this movement, like its own mythology? We already have our own terminology, our own lexicon. We have our own rituals. We have our own icons, right? The obstacle and infosec, it's a ritual.

Plugging your ledger into your computer is like you going to church and doing your ablutions or you going to synagogue and, like, going to pray. So I think there is this interesting sort of thing that's emerging. And I think people are really uncomfortable by the term religion. But religious organizations are not necessarily about religion in the traditional sense. They're really just about belief systems, right? And people having shared identity. And community, right?

Exactly. It's about shared identity, shared beliefs, shared goals, and that community you build. And our community is on Twitter, which is great. Yeah. It is, I mean, you're blowing my mind a little bit here because I've never thought about it in this context. But if you really do, like I read Yvall Noah Harari had that book, Sabians, which was like an amazing treatise on all this stuff. He didn't really get into Bitcoin much, I don't recall around money because I think it was written before a lot of that happened. Second book, 21 questions, right? When in New York or which one?

No, he had a follow-up. Yeah, the fall-up to Sapiens has had us a little bit on it. But what's really interesting, right, is if you look at Bitcoin, not through a technology lens, but one of the interesting things that has, happened, right? In like 3,000 years ago in ancient Greece, the way that philosophers and scientists looked at knowledge, right, there were two branches. There was real physical knowledge, which is chemistry, math, right? Like observing and understanding the physical world. And then there was the esoteric, right? And the esoteric was like philosophy, but it was also magic and astrology and divination and all this weird shit. And somewhere along the path, we focused only on the hard sciences

and we forgot about the esoteric, right? But we're like literally creatures living on a rock that's hurtling through space at 60,000 miles per hour. We need the esoteric. And so it's been interesting is people are getting really into esoterica. And crypto kind of combines the two because it has elements of mysticism and esoterica in it. But it's also based on math, right? On verifiable mathematical computation.

And so by combining these two together, it's sort of like a reunification of these things that were separated long ago, but belonged together as a whole. So I actually think there's a really cool opportunity. I'm going to bring it back to New Hampshire. Look at it. So there's a really cool opportunity. Should have micro-dosed before this. Okay.

Okay, if you're not watching this video, if you're like listening to this in your ears, literally. We might create a meme out of the face I just made. Sile is, his mind is blown. Continue, sorry. No, no, no. So I just want to burst style. I'll bring it full circle to you. New Hampshire. So what I think is really interesting, one of the things I'm going to try to do over the

next few years is build a church. So when I say a church, it's a religious organization which enjoys certain tax benefits under U.S. tax code. And if we think about the wealthiest institutions of this country, the religious organization. The Mormon church is fantastically wealthy. The largest landowner in America. The Church of Scientology, fantastically wealthy. The Vatican, and fantastically wealthy. So if we can build a new religious organization, a set of shared identity around this new, like, technocratic money movement called Bitcoin,

what we can start to do is amass a large amount of financial capital that helps us shift the political climate in this country, to put new leaders into place to build a new political party, which I think is really important. It helps us shift culture by funding new cultural institutions, which also enjoy taxes. benefits. But think about like the state of education today. We all know it's fundamentally broken, but how do we fix it? We can create new educational institutions that are funded by a religious

organization. And then lastly, we can create new social structures. And the social structure is this idea of a small community, right, of self-sovereign individuals who have, who adopt Bitcoin, right, or other cryptocurrencies, their currency, but also use open source tooling and infrastructure, whether it's DAWS or other primitives that are being developed or things we haven't even dreamed up or coded up yet. And they start to use these tools. And you couple that with distributed computation, publicly owned internet infrastructure, ISPs, telecommunications, infrastructure, and small-scale nuclear reactors, right, with companies like Oaklo, you start to bring that together. And you start to see the development of a new type of city state, right, that is self-sovereign,

that becomes a haven, a refuge for people who are like mine. And these can start small, but they grow over time. And that experiment's happening across the world is these crypto people and their capital are going to these different places, flocking together and building these small communities. But we can start to scale that. And it's starting online, too, right? So you're like, you start online and then you gather the people. And then you're like, okay. It literally starts on Twitter or Discord.

Exactly. But that's why, again, the party, like the Etherop Party, right? one of the realizations I've been sort of working through and thinking about is like these conferences we have and these events we have they're really like us going to mass together. Totally. Totally. Well, it's MECA. And the energy that gets created, right?

It is. Yeah. It's going to MECA. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's going to homage. Like that energy that gets created and the connections that get created, they catalyze and like compound over time. But that has existed.

Like the thing I, so I, so I. It's not novel. No, no, no. I like, I think about all these things in. Like, I'm a, I don't know, I'm a peon, like, whatever. I come from, like, a traditional world, and I'm trying to understand all of these things. And so for me, I'm drawing analogs to what has existed. And I think about, like, what you're saying there.

Berkshire Hathaway, like Warren Buffett is a religion for a lot of people. People literally 50,000 people a year, go to Omaha, Nebraska to go worship at the shrine. Yeah, to worship at the shrine. And I've gone to it. It's amazing. And it's an amazing event. You go and you meet a bunch of other people who have also worshipped at the religion of this like value investing, whatever it was and what it is now.

Now, Apple, sort of a religion. Like, people, there are a billion people in the world that have an iPhone. When I hold an Apple iPhone and there's someone on the street in India holding an iPhone that's like a poor person on the street, we have something. Let's talk about Apple for a second. So here's the next extension of this, which I think is so interesting. So we started with cathedrals, right? Like, cathedrals were the first monumental structures that got built after the pyramids.

So the pyramids were built. It wasn't until 4,000 years later that humanity was able to build a structure taller than the Great Pyramid of Giza. That's crazy. Why is that? Why is that? Do we know? Slavery? No. I mean, they used slaves to build a good.

And the rise of organized religion, right? And if you've read The Immortality Key by Brian Morescu, it's a great book about ancient cultures and their relationship with the esoteric. Right? The super interesting book. The Immortality Key? The immortality. The immortality key. All right.

I'm going to check it out. And it's about humans, like our relationship with the divine and the inexplicable, right? But organized religion basically, like, sought to crush the esoteric. And when that separation happened, there's another great book called Man's Search for Meaning by Albert Kessler. One of the best books I've ever. Yeah, so good. But it's about that separation, right? So think about this.

It wasn't until 4,000 years later, we built a cathedral, right? And then cathedrals became the things that civilizations built. Now, the cathedrals of capitalism, right, are skyscrapers. If you look at the way Apple is using architecture in the Apple stores, right, this is a concept that, like, Krabassia was really passionate about. And what Heath, like, was building as an architect is these halls that felt like churches. It's the sparse marble. It's minimal.

It feels vast and kind of isolating, but at the same time, it feels inspiring. Like, going into an Apple store is, in many instances, like a quasi-religious success. experience. And so this physicality of it and the structures we build is also so interesting, which I'm really curious to see again as people in crypto start deploying their wealth into building small-scale cities, into moving to islands or other locales and building things, like what will we build together? But there is this like really interesting linkage. If we look at all these artifacts around us, right, they're all a product of belief system and what we're trying to convey.

I have an interesting idea that I want to throw out here because I think you guys will have thoughts. So one of the issues I see with all of this massive new wealth that's been created within crypto is because of our current Fiat tax system, there's not a great, like, re-on-ramp for all of that wealth to be put to productive use. Like, there's so much wealth that's been created. Those people would love to build companies on the back of it,

build new protocols, build, like, create jobs. do all sorts of things that like create massive, build great new cathedrals, but like create massive wealth. But currently, because if they go use it or try to redeploy it, there's like someone that's trying to go grab pieces of it, there's not a great way to do it.

So I wonder whether the government or tax authorities, whatever, should basically create like a tax jubilee where people that have amassed a certain degree of wealth within crypto can like almost repatriate it into productive uses for free. Like no tax on the capital gains that they've created if they redistributed into the jobs. Totally. Like an opportunity zone is for crypto. Okay.

But how about we don't give any money to the government, which is absolutely incompetent and engages in a tremendous amount of grift? Yeah. Because some of the worst capital allocators in the world. Yeah. But the system is just too large, right? It's gotten so large and so cumbersome. Like it will collapse under its own weight. It's inevitable.

What if we instead gave that capital to a religious organization and you got a tax deduction? or the religious organization invest that capital, it effectively becomes a hedge fund housed inside of a non-text entity, and grows wealth there and deploys capital along the spiritual or sort of societal aims of that particular organization. So as long as that organization then was like community owned and governed. So it's not like one person is the king of that religion and gets to decide where it goes? I agree. Or the queen. Sorry.

Yeah. It would be community-owned. It would be the queen. It would probably be you. I've never fancied myself a cult leader, although I do joke, like, I'm going to start a cult. But it's interesting to think about, like, a community-owned, decentralized. You miss that. She's like, I'm not a cult leader, but I, you know.

I do joke that I, like, I am starting a cult. I am starting a cult. I do run a cult, but I'm not a cult leader. No, but if you could have that be community-owned, so now, like, people are able to contribute their wealth creation into this entity that is community-owned and can make decisions on behalf of this master. religion. And this is called a Dow. Right, exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And again, the tooling around Dow is still really primitive. I'm a member of a number of Dow's. I've run a number of Dow's. And, you know, it's still really early stage. Dow's, by the way, like, crypto is not a panacea to all of the

challenges that exist in trying to build tools for social coordination. Like, crypto's not a panacea for any of the other than society. It's just a tool that we can use. But it is a really interesting tool. It's being used in really interesting ways. Then I think one example of that, you know, Constitution Dow, maybe is a bad example of that. I think that, you know, it's funny, yes, like Lolls, but you get some good hot takes on it. I like poorly organized. But, you know, that's an example of a group of people banding together. I'm part of another Dow called Hash's Dow, where we collect generative art, and that's been really interesting. So we created these substructures called permutations, where you elect a team to run a specific permutations.

They get an allocation from the Treasury, and then they provide updates to the community on what they're doing, and then anyone can propose to run their own sort of permutation. I'm part of Friends with Benefits, which is another doubt, like a social club. And so they've been doing a lot of cool stuff, and they've had all these spin-offs and different programs that have come out of that. But I think, again, we're at this really early stage of experimenting, and I do think we're living through, like, this digital renaissance, where you have crazy people on the Internet who now have capital, right? We have financial capital. We're going to buy some political capital. We have a lot of social capital.

And we're going to use it to try really interesting new things. And I think the other, like the other thing I really focus on, and this is where we get back to mythology, our perception of reality, right? We collectively get to decide what reality is. Like all of us are collectively responsible for building the reality that humanity lives in. And a lot of us abdicate that responsibility, right? We like sit down, turn on Netflix and just tune out. because it's really fucking scary sometimes. But I think one of the really cool things we can start to do with crypto and crypto capital

and crypto wealth in these new structures is build new narratives and shift people's perception of reality to create a more optimistic and hopeful vision for the future. And that's happening. That's happening. I completely agree that all of the people that are out there saying like crypto is a scam, all of that, like all the negativity around it, if you actually go, spend time at a crypto-native event. Like, I spent a bunch of time at NFT week.

I was, like, reasonably deep in NFTs and spent some time, but I wouldn't spend a week there and just spent time with people. You know what I'm laughing? The most what? I'm laughing because you're wearing a W-A-W-A-G-M-I. Wagmi. New York. New York.

I stole it from one of the bars. Like, they had these t-shirts from some, like, some venture firm that was trying to, like, say they were big crypto venture firm. I went and just grab the shirt. Do you know what Wagney is? Of course. You're going to make it. We're all going to make it.

But the A is really important. Yeah. We're all going to make it. You know what my initials are? What are they? GMI. GMI can make good. Yeah.

I love this for you. We're good. You are GMI. We're good. You are GMI. But like my point, these people in general, it's a very positive sum and very optimistic future group. And so that's the funny thing that I think is like if you went and talked to a bunch of people that are working in crypto, working in Web3, building these future things, all of them are driven by. like we're all going to go do something.

This is collective. That was Constitution. Dow, we can say we hated it, we can say we liked it. It's kind of cool to just see people coming together around something, no matter what, because we don't see that often around positive. Around positive energy. Normally it's like, I'm going to come together to take down this other group because I hate them and whatever it is. And it's kind of cool to just see it in a positive. I want to do, I mean, Greg and I have this whole idea about going and taking a board seat at Twitter with a Dow to go fix Twitter because we think it's broken.

And so we'll, like, form a doubt to go try to assume. Twitter. But you use Twitter. You love Twitter. Greg doesn't like Greg's. That's my stand. We're in the same boat. If Twitter was a better prop, like if Twitter could improve its product, it would be so

amazing. But Twitter can never improve its product. Why? Because it's a public company with shareholders and Twitter doesn't serve as customers. It serves as shareholders. But what if a community Dow was one of the board seats or like had a significant holding on the board? Like I serve on boards.

Like the board is not really like. It's a very funer factory. Yeah. The culture at a company is really driven by its leadership, but I'm actually really sad that Jack stepped down from the CEO role at Twitter because he really was the culture. And say what you will, like maybe they didn't ship anything new, but I think Twitter's primary appeal was that it was on changing and it was on compromising in its approach. And now we've like lost this bastion of free speech, right?

Just today, the new CEO came out and said, you can no longer post images of people of public, which means you can't post police brutality videos, you can't post protests, you can't post memes. You're right, it's actually insane. They can't be right but think about what that does. Like free speech dies in darkness.

Democracy dies in darkness and democracy is fucking dying right now. Look, there are certain people on the internet that I don't like. I don't agree with a lot of people's viewpoints, but that doesn't mean that they don't have the right to share their perspective. Right? We have the Biden administration coming out and openly

saying, we're looking at banning the social media accounts of people who do not believe in vaccines. That's crazy. The fact that no one thinks that's absolutely bonkers, right? Yeah. It's mind-blowing to me. It's like fucking crazy. We're in a society now. We're talking about censoring free speech openly.

Yeah. And people are like, yes, let's do that. I'm like, this is crazy. This is what happens in fascist countries. Yeah. Do you think much about decentralized social and where that's going? Yes and no. I think that decentralized social is something I don't really understand, to be totally honest,

because it's to your point, right? Like, the network effects of social are so important. And because we've all, and this is actually, like, I think one of the core issues is, like, reputation and clout and how you take your accumulated reputation with you as you move from platform to platform. I just invest in a really cool company project that's working on enabling platformless applications by bringing back the RSS feed. Do you remember the RSS feed?

Of course. Okay. And then like all of the platforms basically realized if I don't, if I have an RSS feed, people are not going to be on my platform. I don't get their eyeballs and I don't get to monetize these customers, these users. So the RSS feed, right, all of the major websites, all of the major like news sites, all of the major platforms turned off RSS. And so the same challenge exists in crypto, right?

Like you have all these wallets, you have all these sites you have to visit. There's no like RSS feed for Web 3. But the ultimate vision, I think, is we need infrastructure and tooling and developer tooling in particular that will help you pull in all of this data and effectively like gather information from a variety of different sources, but surface it in any application. So effectively you have platformless applications where you don't require the platform and you don't need to visit the platform, the data gets pulled into whatever front end you want to use

or build or interact with. But I think until we resolve some of the underlying infrastructure issues around how these apps work, it's really difficult to imagine decentralized social. Because, again, I think it's very difficult to say to someone who's invested thousands of hours of their life of building up a persona and a following, say, okay, go here and start from zero.

What we need is something that makes the Twitter platform irrelevant and effectively enables us to pull in like Discord and Twitter and Instagram and all of these sort of data points as well as our Web3 data, like our Web 2 and our Web 3 footprints and bring them together and surface them in any application, right. Have you looked at DeSoe? I have looked at DeSoe. What do you think of that? What is Decentralized Social. Sorry, I don't know what it is. Decentralized Social. It used to be called BitCloud.

Oh. Did you change the name of Big Cloud? Bit Cloud, yeah. Oh, okay. Madar al-Nazi, who built another project before, like, a stable coin basis that got shut down. Raised like $150 million or something. For the prior thing? For BitCloud?

For his last company. I think he was working at Google or something. He was working at, he was a quant trader at D.E. Shaw. Okay, there you go. Oh, him and Jeff Bezos. Okay. Raised like $150 million for a stable coin startup. Ended up giving back, like, most of the money.

started BitCloud as this anonymous... It's a decentralized social network. But the thing that Big Cloud did, that also Handshake did, right? So Handshake is a DNS protocol, so domain name service protocol. Basically, what they did is on BitClout, they allowed anyone with a Twitter existing Twitter profile

to claim the equivalent on BitClout, right? So you wouldn't have the zero start problem. And then it enabled people to basically buy creator tokens for anyone on Twitter, right? And Twitter was the first platform. They sort of linked through to. So people can buy Meltem to Mirror's tokens. I have not claimed my Big Cloud account, and I don't plan to.

Sorry, I touched my microphone. Sorry. You're good. You're good. You're good. You're good. You're good. But I think the challenge, again, is, like, all of the actions on Twitter.

So why would I invest hundreds of hours into building up my Big Cloud? And the idea was if we incentivize people with free money, then they'll come and they'll stay. And now what happened is people came. They claim their free money. They cashed out. out and then they went right back to Twitter. Shocker.

It was a brilliant growth loop, to be fair. It was brilliant and that it played into the like think boy VC narrative of like everybody tweeting about how amazing it was and you had to tweet to claim it. So all of a sudden a bunch of BCs and a bunch of people were tweeting about it. We have a group chat that a bunch of VC think boys are in. But not VC think boys. Wait, if you guys are think boys, what am I? We're not think boys.

We're not think boys. There's a bunch of like guys that started companies and things. I don't know what I'm doing in it, but I'm in this thing. And all of them were like so hyped for one week. It was like everyone pouring money into BitClout. Like we're going to get rich off BitClout. And then I literally didn't do anything because I didn't understand it. And a week later, BitClout got like rug pulled.

Everyone lost their money on it. No. Well, what happened again is like effectively they were trying to bootstrap a network using greed as the incentive. Right. And actually, that's what works really well about crypto and Bitcoin. Right. Like the thing that gets people into crypto is not the tech. It's greed.

Like, let's be very honest. honest, right? Like, yes, the tech and the vision and, like, the narrative is super compelling. For a lot of people, the greed's a big part of it. And as they get into it, they stay, not because of the greed, but because of the community and, like, how fun and wild and cool this alternate reality is, right? Like, when you step into crypto Twitter. How fun is this week? Yeah, you step into, like, through a portal and you're like in Wonderland, right? Or maybe it's a little more dystopian and weird. Somewhere in between the two. But you step through a mirror and you're like, what did I just walk into? But it's cool. It's exciting. It's like,

exhilarating makes you feel something. I think the issue with like using greed in social applications is what else is there? This is actually my big issue with play to earn games, like literally play to earn games. Like Axy doesn't need to have anything in the game. All they is just a box that you click thousands of times. The box just gets smaller and smaller and yields go down and down and down and down. That's what play to earn is, right? That's what a lot of the defy stuff is like a lot of the hopping from like Ethereum, now people are migrating to Solana. Like the majority of avalanche's growth has been driven by people hunting for yield, right? Because they don't give shit about the platform. They don't care about like what it is. They're just looking to

maximize the ROI on the time they send on these things. So it works, but there has to be something more there. The goal is, is that the greed and people coming in for the money will build community and that the community will be strong enough, right? And the mythology around it and the narratives and the symbols and the shared identity, we're strong enough to keep people there. And the issue with Big Cloud was it just wasn't there. I feel like the point you just made of the greed, in my mind, it's like Gartner hype cycle. Like you have greed draws a ton of capital flows into this, which then the greed collapses because the market will collapse at some point. Like, well, you'll have a drop. But the reality is all that capital flowed in. And so then people that are real believers and the

tech and the people that are building can use that to build what the future is. And then, every low ends up higher than the prior low. So this is Carlotta Perez, right? So Carlotta Perez, researcher at MIT, wrote a book called Technology Revolutions and Financial Bubbles, which is basically about this phenomenon, right? New technology comes out, new thing comes out, people pour a ton of money into it, really excited. But the actual product itself, right, like the ability to deliver real value isn't there.

So there's all this paper value that gets built. Then there's a crash. There's correction. And then the real value gets built. A great example of this is Chainlink, right? Chainlink is a project that started in 2015. I knew the founders, like, we used to go to the BitDev's Meetups and eat free pizza. But project started, didn't really have a clear vision, got really popular and they made a bunch of money,

and they were able to use the money, right, to build something really innovative and that's actually useful today. But there's sort of this interesting challenge where it's chicken or eggs. Like, do you start with a capital or do you start with a product? And a lot of crypto today uses this model of... of financial bootstrapping where they use greed as the mechanism, right? And they have like liquidity mining and air drops and all this other shit to incentivize people to pay attention. But the issue is there's so many things that are doing it that if you're a profit maximizer,

you're just going to go from thing to thing to thing to thing. So at the end of the day, really what gets people to stay is the community, right? And it's the stories, the mythology, it's the experiences. So I think the communities that do best or the projects that do best or the protocols or the ecosystems that do best are those that are able to figure out how to build that community. So what advice, what advice do you have? We have a lot of listeners who are into Web 3, they want to build, they want to build something. What advice do you have for designing mythology? Okay, so one thing I've been really fascinated by is the role of historians. Not many companies today

employ historians, but I think every company, every project should employ a historian and like a chief storyteller. So I think having someone who is like the spirit animal of your business, like at coin share is my business, I'm our spirit animal. I write our mythology. I write our narratives, right? You're also my spirit animal for what it's worth. Happy to do that. No, but but it's really important, right? Like someone needs to keep receipts. And again, And the people who have power in the present, they write the story of the past. Right. It's always in that way.

Now with Bitcoin, we have the ability to record historical information with fidelity, which is like so cool, but we don't need to get into that. But yeah, I would say like having a storyteller and really thinking about intention. I think at the end of the day, the other thing is like intention and the energy you create, people feel that. So I always like to joke that I'm not a venture capitalist. I'm a vibe capitalist, which sounds a little bit cheeky. And like, shout out to Jeff Lewis at Bedrock.

You know, he's a fellow vibe capitalist. But I think vibe capitalism, like for me, when I interact with founders, I don't care about your product roadmap. The vision is what I want to understand. And I want to understand why you personally are excited to build that vision and why you think it needs to exist. Like, VCs do a lot of performance art, right? Or they do this weird, like, power flex that they're the stage entrepreneurs.

Or they're like, oh, show me a business plan. Like, calculate your tam. I'm like, I don't fucking know what their tam is because nobody's ever built this before. Like, what are you going to do? This is like an academic exercise to see if you know how to use Excel. It's whack. So I think it's really about like what is the intention, what's the vibe? And then for me, one thing that's really important that may not be important for other people,

I think having fun is really important. And there's like this sort of levity and like lightness that has to be there. So I think remembering like the fun components really important. But having a storyteller and really investing in storytelling is important and physical events. Like bring people together in physical space and see what happens when you create a good container. Like let the magic happen organically there. It's almost like there's, I have three things from that. One, you need like a chief community officer, someone like that that really understands community.

That was my first job in crypto. That's amazing. Chief narrative officer is the other one. Somebody that's like in charge of the storytelling, in charge of the narrative around it because of how powerful that is. It's just like that can be a huge unlock for you if you figure that out. No companies in traditional world are thinking about that. They're like trying to cobble together. Actually, so I went on a little search.

Herman Miller, the furniture company, has a company historian. And internally in their office, they have a museum where they gather and collect an archive all of the sketches and like products of the past. A lot of design houses will have this. But I think tech companies need to have it as well. Right? Like, I'd love to see like, you know, in Discord a channel that's just like our museum, right? Yeah, it's like the cool idea. Yeah. Well, it's one thing, it brings the conversation full circle. You can talk sports at the bigger, very beginning. One thing sports leagues have done incredibly well is the Hall of Fame. Like, you can go to Cooperstown if you're a baseball fan and go experience the history of baseball.

You can go into the NFL Hall of Fame and get the whole mythology behind this religion that you're buying into. You can go like Green Bay Packer Stadium has a museum where you can go and experience. Baseball, what I love is they give people like honorific titles, right? Like Babe Ruth, like, what was he known? Everyone has like a nickname. Yeah, the babe. The babe, yeah. I don't know, like people are known for a thing or they have a nickname.

You also have, baseball has this really unique thing. Fowl balls, no one talks about this, foul balls are the most unique thing in baseball because there are hundreds of thousands, probably millions at this point of people out there who have a piece of history. history from the sport that they display. People go catch the foul ball. You go with your dad do a game. You go with your mom do a game and you have your glove and you catch a foul ball.

And it's like this, I mean, I remember when I first caught a foul ball. I like still remember the day. And it was 25 years ago. But that carries with you that history. So by the way, this is why I think sports teams and sports franchise are great investments because they have intergenerational product market fit. So if your grandpa was a Patriots fan, you're a Patriots fan, your child's going to be a Patriots fan. It is, right?

And so many things in our world are like cults of, belief, why not money? Why not communities? Like, it's not a crazy leap to think about all of these different things as like quasi-religions. It's just that we attach religion to like this very structured sort of Abrahamic religion that we've had in our world today. So I do want to close out that conversation. So the religion of this church that you're talking about building, what is the actual, like, how are you going to actually do this? Like, is the government going to allow you to go create Bitcoin church or whatever it is, crypto church, and declare it as a tax tax-free entity.

So the process, there is a process. And actually, there's a group of people out West who created the church of marijuana. So they went through the process. And like the church or the pasta monster. What is that called? Like, pastafarianism. It's like a joke. Spaghetti monster or something.

Yeah. Yeah. There was like a South Park episode about this way that I loved. And again, like think of how Scientology started, right? Like Alron Hubbard went to his friend. He was a sci-fi writer. Yeah, exactly. So, so...

Shout out Tom Cruise. So there's a process. So from a like administrative perspective, you file something called a 1040 form. In the 1040 form, there are specific things you have to share. You have to share your organizing documents, like the underlying philosophy, the religious texts of your religion, right? And then, yeah, from there, it's just,

It's an administrative process like anything else, like setting up a 501C3. There's a little bit more legwork involved. So are you doing this? I'm starting to work on it. Yeah. I'm pretty interested in tracking this. I feel like this is a really interesting thing because it does present a way where people can contribute the wealth creation into a productive set of means because the church will presumably

be deploying this into a bunch of job creation, a bunch of infrastructure creation, interesting things being created, cities, whatever it might be. And you can do it in a tax-efficient way where you're not relying in the government to allocate capital for you. is not unique, right? Like a lot of people are working on different permutations of this. But I think again, right, we've lived for so long with this religion, like this thing with no name, but we all feel it. We share a certain affinity, right? Like when you meet someone, you share that affinity where you're like, oh, this person is like me, right? Because you feel a certain type of affinity because you don't have any

strong sort of affinity with any other large organized group. But it's never had a name. It's never had an identity. It's never had like any organizational structure around it. So one of the interesting questions, and I recently went to this weekend retreat with like people from the divinity and theology space with technologists, with like social activists where we talked about this, right? We were like, okay, if we created a new religion, what would that look like? And one of the questions is, would it be like this large hierarchical structure like the one we have today? Will institutions of the future look like institutions of the past? Or can we create an open source, blueprint complete with open source money that will allow people to build this at small scale

for smaller communities and it's more decentralized and it's like a mesh of these little cells that are all slightly different and slightly unique to the people who are parts of those communities and like the regions where they live and their preferences but are sort of unified through the underlying open source infrastructure they use because it's all compatible right so there are these interesting questions around like how we how we organize but I'm here for it I'm here for a time. And I learned by doing. I learned by doing.

That's my job. Like I literally just do a bunch of weird stuff on the internet. You got the best job in the world. I love your job. Yes and no. I have bags under my eyes often. Yeah, but that's because you're working on cool shit.

And that's a good reason I'm bags on your eyes. And like, what's the most fun for me is when I talk to an entrepreneur and we start working on something and I'm like, yes. But then add this. Add this. I'll introduce you to this. We'll bring in this. And then we'll go get this money here and put it in this.

And then all of a sudden when we work together and like mind melt and share that same wavelength, we can take something. if we can take something that was like a five out of ten idea and make it a ten out of ten idea. Bags under the eyes, but Prada shoes on the feet. That's where we ran. We're going to wrap here. This has been amazing. Where can people find you?

I know you're an amazing Twitter follow, so. Even if you hate Twitter, you are a great Twitter follow. Yeah, I love Twitter. I'm just an idiot on Twitter. I just like tweet random stuff. I'm at Meltz underscore Dem. DMs are open. So happy to chat with.

people, if anyone's working on any of this, like happy to chat on Twitter or just give out my phone number to people as well. This is a burner, by the way. So don't worry. You're not going to get anything good. Yeah, vibe capitalism. Yeah, I'm just here to vibe. And then coinchairs.com is our company.

And yeah, that's it. This was awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. That's awesome. It blew my mind on a bunch of stuff. And I'm looking forward to the future of this Bitcoin religion. I know.

Are you going to join the cults? I'm in. I think it's super interesting. I would contribute a bunch of my capital gains into it. I had a question, actually. So you mentioned Bitcoin specifically. Do you think, like, how are you thinking about other cryptocurrencies versus Bitcoin? Yeah, that's a great question.

So I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist. But for me, Bitcoin is sort of unrivaled and unparalleled in the pantheon of cryptocurrencies. And it's funny. I get a lot of criticism from everyone, obviously. Like being a woman on the Internet with strong opinions. as everyone's like, hey, fuck you. I'm like, cool, cool, bring it. It's great.

Come at me. I'm like, yeah, I love it. I love controversy. Yeah, you're not afraid of a fight. No, I love it. I'm happy to fight. I'll tussle. And I bring receipts.

Check the receipts a couple of years later. Yeah, call me. I have CVS receipts. They're long as fuck. Try me. A bunch of coupon cards on. Try me, bitch. Two dollars off shampoo.

By the way, also you said this. I love it. My memory is very good. Keep a long tracker. But to me, like Bitcoin, right, in the pantheon of all cryptocurrencies, what Bitcoin has done and what Bitcoin does is unique. And a lot of it centers around the myth of Satoshi, the fact that there is no central organizing entity. Every other protocol has a central organizing entity. It has leaders.

It has rulers. It has kings. It has monarchs. Right? And they're all men. It has monarchs. Bitcoin is the only thing that doesn't have that structure, right? And proof of work in and of itself is actually.

I think going to be one of the things that brings humanity into new age of energy production, right? Because Bitcoin is effectively a money battery. It enables you to balance, like, power on the grid. And I used to work in energy before I worked in cryptos, like, brings my two worlds together. But I think Bitcoin is like, if we think about cathedrals, right, Bitcoin's a digital cathedral. It has intergenerational product market fit in a way that no other cryptocurrency does because it's made it 12 years. It's survived all of these assaults and attacks. And nobody has been able to co-opt Bitcoin. Yeah.

Right? And so I think again, if I want to make money and I'm motivated by like greed and this fun like flywheel, Bitcoin's not the place to do it. I think Bitcoin is really like long term where I want to hold my wealth, where I want to hold my information, right? Information about like who owns what. Like the Ethereum network has been rolled back. Ethereum's not immutable.

These other chains are not immutable, right? So I think again, when we think about like humanity and what we're trying to achieve, Bitcoin is the only thing today that I know of that is able to give us the security guarantees, the settlement guarantees, and the infosecond offset guarantees, right, from a network perspective, from a computational perspective, in a way that no other crypto network can. So that's why I still spend so much of my time on Bitcoin. Cool. I like it. So I've got a wrap because I drink three tequila.

I've got a bad thing. All right, man. Crazy episode. What was your one big takeaway from today? I really like the framework for how she thinks about kind of looking at religion and applying it to crypto communities. So instead of a Bible, you have a white paper. Instead of holidays, you have a roadmap. Instead of rituals, you have things like GM and we are GMI.

And I think there's a lot you can do if you're trying to create a popular crypto or Web3 project. just looking at religion as a way to give you some ideas. I loved that too. I thought it was really interesting, and it stretched my mind a little bit, thinking about it, and like the analog of Sapiens, which is one of my favorite books,

which if you haven't read is amazing and tons of good discussion points around it. I thought the religion angle is really interesting. And then just in terms of like tactical application, if you're going to build something in Web 3, all of Meltem's points around having a like real chief community officer, and a chief narrative officer were super interesting to me. And so just as like a structural framework for building a company and building a business around Web 3, I thought that was fascinating.

Absolutely. So if you're crypto curious, this is an amazing episode for you. But I will say Meltem does live in the future. So I'm sure a lot of people are going to listen to this and be like, no way. And there's some people are going to be like, absolutely. So I want to hear from you all. Like let's talk about in the Discord and just hear, you know, do you believe in what she's saying? Or is this just a pretty future?

Yeah, we've got to go deeper on it. There's so much to talk about here. And the future is a little crazy. And sometimes it looks completely insane in the present. So I would encourage you as you listen to it to stretch your mind a little bit and start thinking about, could this be real, even if it sounds nuts. and let's get into it. It's going to be fun. We'll go into the community. Let's start jamming on it and go deeper. See you in there. 2020 is a great time to take control of your sleep. I used to sleep like crap, but not anymore.

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