The Steve Dangle Podcast - The Steve Dangle Podcast - Dec 5, 2016 - Doug Cifu

Episode Date: December 5, 2016

On this episode, Panthers minority owner Doug Cifu calls in to talk about the recent Panthers controversy with the Gallant firing after Chris Johnston stops by in studio to talk about all things Leafs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Panago Pizza presents S.T.P. The Steve Dangle Podcast with your hosts, Steve Dangle and Adam Wilde. Well, Steve, I have a question for you, actually. Okay. I might have an answer. I'm hoping you can do some math, okay? Okay. Oh, boy.

So, if you were to take 100% and subtract 70%, what would you be left with? I mean, somewhere between 10% to 70%, I think. Right, right. Or, it's close. Is it 30? It's 30%. Steve, what did you and I get in grade 10 math? Pretty close to 30.

30%. Yeah. So, who's here for the 30% Leaf Report? Mr. 30% himself, Chris Johnson! Oh, no, now he's Mr. 30%. This is amazing. 0.3. This is amazing.

It's exactly 30% into the season today. Way! That's completely by accident! While you were doing that intro 54th day of the season It's a 180 day regular season this year Literally 30% as we're talking right now Wow

I just got goosebumps That's just dumb luck You're a genius and you didn't know it Serendipitous We're going to have to do this every year Welcome to the show, welcome back I have no idea what's going on with this 30% It is a testament

To the listeners of this show like my timeline just started filling up with it and at first I was like did I say something on another radio hit perhaps or something what's going on here and then I'm like it's gotta be Dangle and I texted Steve and he explained the whole thing to me cause I didn't listen to your last show

well that's to be expected and the thing was what always amazes me when we talk to people they're like yeah yeah you do two hour shows but who's listening to the whole thing and that happened at the end of the show so everybody that hung around for that long tweeted you and we got a ton of tweets

right saying that I mean I did there was guys like getting in my DMs with it oh sliding into those CJ DMs I'm still I'm still unsure you guys are younger hipper than me is having the DMs open a good idea I just did it straight up no so hard no

Steve doesn't think so I do I do think it's great although it makes it difficult to respond to everybody like I I have been on vacation for a week and I haven't still responded to everybody that's DM to me right in the last week since I opened them up i think it's a good idea because there's people like especially with you you're a reporter you've got discretion there's things that people need to message you privately about right that's

what i was thinking i was thinking maybe someone sees somebody at an airport and it can be a tip that i can use to get at some news i mean obviously i wouldn't run with that tip but i could make a subsequent phone call that would you know i just figure that that more good and i don't really have anything to hide it's just it's kind of weird it is weird it's like some people are throwing me into conversations with like 20 other people and just asking weird questions and i'm Like, what is going on here? Group convos. You know, if you ever want to make someone really, really mad, involve them in a, get

like a group of friends together and involve them in a group conversation because they can't get out of it. And text messaging, you can't. Nope. I'm pretty sure text messaging, you can't get out of it. So you can actually prank somebody. I've done that a couple of times to friends that like hate that. You know, Facebook, you can leave a conversation.

Twitter, you can delete a conversation. But in texting, you can't. Anyway. I think by the end of the show, I'm going to start one with like Kipper, McClain. Kipper McLean. Elliott. Oh. Maybe a little, you know, Darren Millard's got a good sense of humor, believe it or not.

It seems like the person who would have their feathers ruffled most by that would be McLean. Oh, without a doubt. Elliott, though, too. Elliott, too? Because if you ever see Elliott, he's got his phone about a foot from his face at most times. And obviously he's using it for, that's why he's good at his job. Yeah. But he's very much on his phone.

And so I think that would drive him bananas if he was just getting stupid texts all day. Kiprios would surprisingly relish in it, and within five minutes just have Photoshop pictures goofing on Friedman. For sure. For sure. You just have all these Elliot hair shots going through. That's the thing with Kipra, when we eventually had him on, I was blown away by how much fun he is. Oh, man. He's hilarious.

And he comes across sometimes on TV, and growing up watching him, he's a pretty stern guy. Right. But he's wicked fun. Every time he makes fun of me, I'll go, hey, what's Kipper's problem with you, man? You want me to stick up for you? I'm like, well, first of all, it's Nick Kiprio. Second of all, he's kidding.

He's kidding. Relax. I think the best way to understand it, it's like when he played. Like on the ice, he had to do a tough job, but he was a glue guy on his teams, right? Just like most fighters, and we don't have many of them in the game, are. And he's one of the biggest, if not the biggest, team guy at all of sports in that.

He's the one, if there's a barbecue in the summer, it's Kipper that's throwing it out of nowhere. Like, he's doing everything all the time to keep everyone together. Sometimes that means busting on someone's balls over here. A young Mr. Dangle. I think CJ just called Kipper a plug. I think you just called him a broadcasting plug. I don't know.

Would you say Nick Kiprios is at best fourth line at Sportsnet? Oh, he's first line. Okay, anyone who's on the Saturday night panel, I mean, come on. Absolutely. No, we're kidding. We're kidding, and he knows that. He's a fourth liner at heart, though. even though he's become big.

Okay. So we got to talk. I mean, we had an interesting weekend for the Leafs, right? I mean, it was... Interesting Western road trip. Always is. Yeah, 1-1-1 on the Western road trip. And I mean, okay,

so I guess we should just start with the team that's playing because there's a few players that are not that are also very interesting. But we'll start with the team that you've seen. And from what you've seen thus far, is this the team you expected? It's probably a little better than I expected, I would think. I mean, even though when I look at it,

I mean, the game in Vancouver is fresh in mind, obviously, but I feel like they've gotten so little out of their season in a way. There's been so many games where they've left a point at least on the table, if not two in a couple of games. And it's why I continue looking at, obviously, what we're seeing, the underlying numbers, what other teams are doing around the league. And I'm like, man, to me, the Leafs look like a playoff team. But they've also dug a little bit of a hole here.

And even though it looks like four points or whatever it is right now as we're talking, it's just so hard to make up that four points because now they don't play again until Wednesday and, you know, it might be six points by Wednesday. It's difficult. But, man, they've been a lot better than I expected. The way they can score goals, I don't know, the kids are real, man. Like, you expected that in a way, but until you see it, you're not sure

because there are lots of players that struggle in their first season that become awesome players. Stephen Stamko has had a miserable rookie year and then has become the second-best goal scorer of his generation behind Ovechkin. I mean, it happens. So there's no guarantee with any of these guys. And then you get Marner and Matthews and Nylander who gets far less attention,

but it's also doing great for where he's at in his career. I mean, it's been an exciting year to watch. It's just, every now and then I think of it like, when did they all of a sudden become a goal-scoring team? Because last year it was awful. October 12th, basically. Yeah, yeah. Like their big ads were all rookies and also JVR.

Like I think that was a bit of an underrated storyline heading into the season. was they lost their top score in January, and he never came back. And they were, as much as people hate to admit it, they were sniffing around the playoffs last year in January. They were. Sniffing. Sniffing. They were there.

They were never going to make it. No, but they were there. They weren't going to be first overall pick. You had to check your blind spots for the Leafs, because they might be there. Fair. Chris, you're laughing. They were, I mean. I just try not to think back to last year.

Yeah. I like that. You can go there. It was just so many ugly, grisly nights, especially in January and February, before the kids did come up in March. That was truly the dog days. That's what everyone says about the NHL schedule, but in Toronto that was some tough sledding.

I won't name this person. I will only say they don't work for Sportsnet, but they're someone who covers the Leafs regularly. And it was the Peter Horacek stretch. It was right after the Peter Horacek stretch. and I don't think I'd ever met this person and he just goes, hey man, like I watch your videos all the time

they are all that got me through that stretch that was such a miserable team to cover the horror joke I never actually heard that before, that's good I just made it up there and I just tried, that stretch and also last year were just they were fun for me in terms of like

you know, getting to do these silly little YouTube videos because I, every night it was the same thing, they were bad So you've got to find a new way to say that every night. It was challenging. Well, that kind of tanks. You had lots of props.

I had to go to party packagers and start getting toys and stuff for fun, but also for the videos. You've got to play with them. Obviously. You have to play with them. But I wondered this last night as we were preparing for today. And by the way, one of the Panthers owners, Doug Sifu, will be on the show a little bit later in the download section of the show. But Chris, is it that the Leafs were so bad last year that now this year it's like, wow! Or are they actually, because they feel, as you said, they feel like they're better than the record suggests.

I have no doubt about that. I mean, if you don't have two weeks at the start of the year where Freddie Anderson can't stop a puck, and he's been awesome since, he's been what they expected since. I mean, they win a few more games than that. I mean, we could go back through them. It's crazy the number of third period leads they blew. Individually. To lose a 4-0 lead in Winnipeg, and obviously they got a point out of that game.

They lost in overtime. They led in two late goals in Chicago and only got a point lost in the shootout there. Even opening night in Ottawa. I mean, how did they lose that game? Again, Freddie couldn't stop a puck. You get a four-goal performance out of someone. The devil's game. The devil.

I mean, there's just a lot. And I know every team can go back, but I feel like for this new in the season. Like, think how many games, put it the other way, how many games have they led going into the third? For a team that was 30th in the league last year That couldn't score a goal All of a sudden they're knocking their opposition back on their heels They've led something like I think 15 of 24 games

Heading into the third That's insane And most teams have I believe an 80-90% conversion rate On leading going into the third League wide And the Leafs, it's a little south of that right now But you know again though It's about 30%

I just look at it all Together and I think that they're better. I don't know how you can conclude otherwise. They can do the one thing most teams in this league can't do, and that's score. It's a legitimate issue in a lot of places. The Ottawa Senators right now,

they're in a great spot in the standings, but they struggle to score. And so when their goalies aren't great and they've given everything going on there, I mean, that's crazy. Craig Anderson and what's happening off the ice and how well he's performed on the ice despite everything is an incredible story for the Sens.

But should they see a slippage in the goaltending, they're getting they're they're probably going to be in trouble and but the leafs have it in abundance so to me i still think they can make a push for the playoffs maybe i'm seeing things a little too optimistically i've been getting some pushback on that from even some people internally at sports not just when we have these these conversations but when i look at the games my goodness that this team is night and day from where it was at this time a year ago you're just basking in it Vancouver Saturday night was

fun it was fun well because I mean boy did they look young on that first goal oh it was Hunwick and Polak again yes yeah nuts that's nuts that you know what though everyone gets so down on that pairing they give me

hope they give me hope because they're not going to be part of the team going forward I don't think maybe you have some insight on that I don't know I'd be stunned If they were? Yeah, I mean, they're both UFA at the end of the year. I can't really believe that Roman Polak was re-signed this year. I think that counted as a bit of a surprise,

although he has let it slip that it was part of the deal a little bit. Wait, you mean that he's going to be traded again? No, that when he was traded last year, that they said that they would come back to him in the summer. I mean, I'm not saying they had the contract done, because that would be illegal, but it isn't illegal to say, hey, man, we're trading you right now because of where we are,

But we're interested in bringing you back because Roman was a free agent. He could have signed anywhere else at that point. But where they get their defensemen is probably the biggest question, I guess now, if we're gazing forward, and that's why you've seen some trade rumors pop up, I believe. But part of it might just be you need some time, man, and hope that Andrew Nielsen or Rinat Valiev or some of these guys down with the Marlies,

Travis Dermott, who I know has been injured most of the year from the Marlies, but you hope that some of those guys can come up and maybe get a free agent somewhere along the way or whatever because the D is a little concerning, Steve. Oh, I know. Believe me, we've been talking about it on the show, and I think my observation is they're carrying eight guys. They have Frank Corrado in prison for some reason,

but I guess in the Leafs' defense, they figure, well, someone, like there would have been like one long-term injury right now. It seems like every team has at least one. I think the Sabres have four defensemen hurt right now. Yeah, it's insane. But what do you do? You just give Frank Corrado to them? No, you wait until you accidentally become...

No, they're calling up guys I've never heard of, literally, and I'm a hockey writer. Because that's what you do, right? I mean, if the Leafs had 4D, there'd be some interesting-looking defense pairings. They sure would. What I think is happening is they got a guy like Valiev who, I don't know, maybe they think there might be something there. Hall, sorry, might be something there. Nielsen, yes, but down the line.

Dermott, yes, but down the line. They have eight guys because they don't want to have to call anybody up. It's true. The only part of the Corrado thing I don't understand is why he doesn't play more than one out of 24. I mean, I understand why they're keeping him and why they don't want to just put him on waivers or trade him somewhere. I mean, their concern is a real, like usually you need like 8 to 10 D

any given regular season over the course of a year. they just happen to be really healthy Hunwick I keep calling it Hunlack Twitter's ruining me Hunwick was injured for a couple games but other than that they've been totally healthy

and poor Frank Corrado just sits and rots We gotta talk about that obviously we have Peter Holland basically said I'm not going on the road trip or his agent said he shouldn't go on the road trip I think he was told not to go on the road trip

By his agent or by the team? By the team. Really? That's my impression of it. Why is that your impression? Well, because someone told me that. Oh, okay. Why would that make sense?

Sorry, better question. Very interesting. And it does make sense on a certain level, right? I mean, if the Leafs feel that they... First of all, he wasn't playing at all. And clearly, Babcock has not liked him now in a year and a half as his coach. And if they felt that something was close, which, you know, it's possible even though it hasn't happened immediately,

that that's still the case, why even take him out there? So I think that basically, look, they're in a roster jumble right now because Josh Levo is with the team but isn't actually on the roster because he's been injured since last season. Technically. Until they clear a roster space at the NHL level, which they could do by sending someone to the Marlies. You could send Nikita Soshnikov just to name a player,

doesn't need waivers, down to the Marlies and activate Josh Levo and it's done. But, you know, clearly their preference is to get rid of Peter Holland to make that spot. Is there a reason why you don't waive a guy like him? Not really. I mean, I don't think he'd be claimed. No. And I'm not alone.

I did sort of a poll, just asked a few guys I trust, some scouts and AGMs and stuff. And, you know, just at his salary and no one really knows what he is. And most teams not. You know, Ted Purcell just went down and went through waivers for the Kings. I mean, the funny thing about waivers is it's sometimes a day-by-day thing. Like, if they put him on today and another team gets, like, an injury last night, maybe he gets claimed because they have this sort of immediate need. But in general, I think at this point in his career,

that would just mean he's going to the Marlies. So you'd have a fourth guy down there on NHL contract. Yeah, that would be, I guess, the only reason. But, you know, they must feel they can get something back. I think that that's the main reason. Oddly enough, if he were to clear waivers, he might be more valuable to another team because a team trading for him then would know they're getting an asset that can be sent to the minors without waivers for 30 days so it's it's a sort

of less serious commitment from the other team they know that they're getting him and that if they don't like him initially they can just send with the ahl right wow i didn't even know that was a rule i'm learning i knew there was something something there so therefore let's remember in the summer too he passed through waivers just before his arbitration hearing and you know part of that is that if a team claims him, I can't remember how many days, it was just days before, they would have to then go through the arbitration hearing and wouldn't have done any of the work, or sign him to

whatever he's asking. So, you know, it wasn't a position, it wasn't a true measure of the market, but you know, what is he, 25 now? He was drafted in 2009, so whatever age Kadri is, he's that age. Yeah, about 25. I think Kadri just turned 26.

I'm just saying, you know, he's an NHL player to me, but he's sort of nondescript in what he does and so unless you really need something, I don't know it's weird, this game, like 26 is old in the eyes of other teams too

so unless they feel he can make an immediate impact and do something right away you know, and truth be told, if he was put on waivers, I think he'd just go to the Marlies. Wow, and they probably don't want to send him down there because there's already is there not a glut down there too? Oh yeah, I think

maybe you have a better impression than I do but they are struggling on some nights to find ice for all the guys they're trying to develop. I think Timoshev was a healthy scratch a couple times. Nylander had to be scratched last year, and that was just because they rotated lines, right? It is a regular thing that happens. Well, they also played four and six last week. Oh, wow. So there's a reason to just scratch a guy just to not have him play four games and six nights.

AHL, you're allowed to play three straight nights. Wow. And the players hate it. So it's not really a scratch, I guess. It's just more like, let's keep you not injured. But they have a ton of forwards. I don't even know the number, but I went and spoke to Brooks Leick the other day, and he's like, yeah, he can't play enough that he wants to play.

And he understands. He's not complaining, but it's just like it's crazy because, you know, obviously their priority is to develop the kids, and I think everyone would understand that. But when you're carrying a Colin Greening and a Rich Kloon and a Brooks Leick and Marc-Andre Cliche and, like, a lot of veteran players. What about Marc-Andre Cliché? There's not room for everyone every night,

so a lot of them are watching from the press box. Someone that Leaf fans bring up all the time and I'm really excited about, I think he scored last night again, is Brendan Leipzig. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't know, I guess Byron Fraze is hurt or something, and Leipzig was playing center with the Marlies.

Do you think they're maybe thinking, let's try that long-term, or was that just a one-night thing? I don't see any harm in trying it. I don't see him projecting out as an NHL centerman. He's another undersized guy. I think, truth be told, he could be on the Leafs right now. I mean, that's part of where those trade rumors are coming from,

is the Leafs have bodies. They've already had to shuttle more guys off the roster than they expected. I mean, Milan Mihalic made the team and had five games, and then they were like, we want to play more kids. or clearly Mike Babcock wanted to play more kids. So, you know, it's a great spot for the organization. But anyway, to answer your question, I could see it being an experiment, but I'd be surprised if that's a long-term thing for him.

But, you know, if he can do it even in a pinch, that's a skill, right? I mean, we saw Blake Wheeler on Saturday night in the Jets game. Mark Shifley was a late scratch. Here's a guy, veteran player in the league, almost exclusively a winger, played center in a game they won. I mean, it's good to have players that can fill in that role, but I don't see it. We'll see, though.

What about Frank Carano? What do we, I mean, like... He just starts laughing. It's just such an open-ended question. I mean, what about him? Well, is it, I mean... Okay, let's start simple. Is he alive?

Yeah, he's alive. He's alive. Good, good. I'll say this about Frank. He is dialed in around the NHL right now. Like, if we went and quizzed him and were like, pick a team, Nashville, how many contracts do they have? I think he'd know

like he is seriously tuned in to what's going on around the league I think in part because he knows there's a chance

his future lies elsewhere and he wants to know I think if they put him on waivers where he might end up why do you think that is why do you think well he's got a lot of time

yeah no no no but I'm not even being snarky but I just mean that think about yourself if you were kind of on hold in your job and you're wondering

where your next job is I think you'd be looking around where are the holes for me But is he an NHL defenseman? Is there something that they don't like about him? Like, why is he not playing? I don't have that answer, man. Because to me, he's at least worthy of playing.

You know, I'm not sure. I don't think anyone can say for sure what he is. I mean, he's three years now of not really playing very much. If you look back, you know, at the start of three years ago when he was still in Vancouver system, he split time between the NHL and NHL somewhere around 40 to 45 games. Last year, I believe it was 46 games with the Leafs and the Marlies, and now he's played one game, and we're in December. So, like, his development has seriously been hindered, I would think.

I mean, the guy's out there every single day skating half an hour, 40 minutes after his team. I mean, he's in the best shape you can be without playing, but it's hard to, like, how do we judge him? Like, he plays the one game in Pittsburgh. First of all, it was back-to-back, I think. It was, yeah, second half of a back-to-back. And they got stormed that night by the Defending Cup champions. They were just trying to hold back the insults. And he takes a penalty that leads to the Penguins' first goal.

Because of course. What can we judge him on? Getting thrown in that situation would be tough for anyone. And I don't think the Leafs... It's a weird one. One day when this all wraps up, and I hope it wraps up with Frank finding somewhere to play regularly in the NHL, I'd love to know what went on here.

because he, what did he say, something like 36 in a row last year. I mean, we're getting to where he's played one out of 24 this year. Like, it's crazy. To me, it's like at this point, just release the man. Like, let him go see if he has a career. Yeah. You know, the one thing he said to me is like, I'm worried it's going to get to July 1st when, again, he needs a new contract.

Everyone's going to go, like, look for their Corrado notes and it will be a blank page. Because literally no one in hockey will have seen him play in a year. And even though he's young, I mean, that's a real concern. and, you know, really it's awful. He's sitting there waiting for an injury. I haven't heard him say that, but, I mean, if he's being real about his situation, I mean, that's the only way he's getting in.

It's not even – I mean, that's what he's there for, right? That's what a backup goalie's there for in case the other goalie gets tired or hurt. Peter Budaj coming in from the bullpen. Where would the Kings be without him? Right? I mean, they did lose in the shootout the other day. But, no, I – He has looked very good.

You just never know. Every once in a while you joke But your third string guy That's how James Reimer came to prominence He was their fourth goalie The Leafs had a whole bunch of injuries And they just threw him in He had a great start

And he went on a run Sorry to bring him up Steve I see your heart bursting through your sweat I was like you didn't have to do that to him Mitch Okay so we gotta take a quick break When we come back We gotta talk a little bit more about the Leafs We wanna talk about the forwards

And the glut of forwards And of course, all the talk of trade Even though most of it's cooked up So we'll be right back on Sportsnet 590 The Fan So So we've got Chris Johnson in Sportsnet analyst

Insider 30%er What does it actually say on your employment contract? What does it say? Senior hockey writer and insider It says insider on your Rogers contract? That's cool I don't actually know what it says on mine

blogging idiot guy guy buddy buddy I didn't come up with either title either I don't really know how

I like Insider Insider that's widely used in the TV parlance so I think cause this contract was more reflective of the fact

I do television too so maybe that's why it got added that's pretty cool man I mean how many people out there can say I am in writing

an insider you could put that like you know when they when you apply for things like it's like you know occupation insider you could put that

legally. It's true, but do you know what one of my goals in life is, and I'm doing pretty well so far, but I've got a lot of runway here, not to have to make a resume ever again. Yes. So, I hope to never have to really put it anywhere, because usually if you do, it's because you're looking for a new job.

You know what I mean? I'm not like applying to get your passport renewed or something like that. Right. I'd probably just say journalist. I like insider. I feel like Bob McKenzie, who works at the other place, he could put insider anywhere and that would go. Yeah, that would work, because you'd know.

Those of us, we're kind of like aspiring insiders, if we're being honest. Well, you do have a lot of inside info on the Leafs. You know, we just talked about Holland and Corrado, and it's so funny, as a guy who's so close to the team, to still be like, man, I don't know. I've got to be honest with you, though. I mean, I don't think he doesn't know. Like, the only ones who really know truly are Mike Babcock and Lou Lamorello.

Not even the assistant GMs would know? Well, maybe they would know. Maybe? Maybe, but there's a possibility that nothing's being said here. There's an entire possibility that Lou, because Lou Lamorello would deal with the agent, right? Because the agent, understandably, is probably calling him every day, but every few days, or having meetings. I mean, in this case, Joe Resnick, a Toronto-based agent, happens to represent both Peter Holland and Frank Corrado. So he's got two sort of issues, I guess, with the Leafs at the moment.

And it's his job, just as you have an agent there, big time Adam Wilde. to lobby on behalf of his client. So, you know, I'm sure that that's happening on one level. And then day to day, Mike Babcock's filling out the roster and he's not writing down 24 very often. No, he's not. Is Frank Crowe number 20? That's how bad it is.

I don't even remember. Yes, I believe he is. He's 20, Holland's 24. So 20 and 24 aren't getting written down. And it is possible, it's not inconceivable that Lamorello and Babcock are not talking about it. Just because, you know, they got any number of issues on any day. and they view him as the 8th D.

I mean, like, so it's sort of like the fans and media even, we fuss around the edges. I think that they're way more worried about make sure Auston Matthews is doing certain things every day to keep himself healthy, to keep his mind in the right... Like, they're probably way more worried about the stars than the fringes. As you probably should be.

Oh, yeah. You said something just before the break. Like, it'll be fascinating to eventually find out what's been going on. We may never know though We're in a loose universe right now The truth is a moving target Good line, I like that

I do like that and I want to ask you about that but let's say the hype is real and the Leafs win the cup I don't know, five, six years down the line and they eventually write a giant coffee table book about it that I will of course buy a hundred copies of

I think the most fascinating chapters of that book will be about like this season and last because when they're good the story will be their good hooray but all they got here yeah all the little things and like every episode we just go i don't get it i don't know what's going on and then i watch you for like you know okay maybe i'll learn something from chris and you're like i don't know either freedman i don't know other networks i don't know it's it's the craziest thing well last year they did something that had never been done before. They actually turned their open cap space

and their ability to spend insane amounts of money, beyond what the cap has allowed, into getting draft picks and prospects. It really goes back a couple years when they traded Cody Franzen and got Brendan Leipzig. That was Dave Nona still. But last year, they signed guys on one-year deals

with the express purpose of trading them. Obviously, they didn't trade them all, but they did turn Roman Polak into two seconds. Sean Mathias, I think it was a fourth-round pick maybe from Colorado. Fourth and Colin Smith. But that was a strategy that had never been deployed that sort of

you might say cynically, but I would say intelligently if you're in their position because they knew they were punting on the season. We've actually seen Arizona kind of adopt it in the meantime with a few trades they made last summer. I don't think that that will ever be the one path to success, but it was one the Leafs had available

and they did. The guy that no one talks about that they should is Brandon Pridham, who's the Leafs cap guy. And, you know, helped actually basically set the parameters of the cap originally working for the NHL and Central Registry. And he used to be the guy, literally other teams would go like, all right, I'm thinking about doing this. You know, does it work with our cap? And he could spend an hour on the phone with an assistant GM basically mapping out and figuring out kind of ways to handle the cap. Maybe ways to delicately dance around it or whatever.

I mean, it was part of his job. And obviously he's come to this job with ideas. And, you know, he doesn't have full say. But, you know, I'm not really allowed to talk to Brandon anymore, so I don't know what's going on. No, I haven't talked to anybody. No, it's not that. I mean, I don't want to make too big a deal of it. But obviously, information has been closed off from where it was prior to Lou Amarillo being hired. It's just, you know, we all know that's how things run.

And so it's harder to know. There's a bit more supposition, I guess, involved now in figuring it out. But clearly, he's coming up with a lot of these ideas. I mean, because they did stuff last year, like the big trade they made with Ottawa, obviously cleared a bunch of, you know, they wanted to clear contracts off their list, which they did, because it was about a month out from the trade deadline. They traded Matt Fratton to Ottawa, but continued to pay him and play him on the Marlies because he was loaned back. Like, that had never been done before.

So they basically got rid of Matt Fratton's contract, but kept paying him and kept playing him in the Marlies. I mean, it's stuff like that. They traded a player that they kept. Right, but never seen it. But, you know, because you have a 50 contract limit, so at that time especially they wanted to have maximum flexibility leading into the deadline because who knows what's going to come up. And so all that stuff last year is interesting. Now we're seeing they're doing different things now, but I'm with you, Steve, that I still think leading into the expansion draft, I think the Leafs are going to do a whole bunch of stuff.

So that's what I wanted to get into is what are we going to see? I mean, this is the most fun part. Hypothetical trades are literally the leading cause of Twitter fights, Reddit fights, but they're also the most fun to talk about. Well, this is what I would do. What would you do? The Leafs need defensemen. We agree. Everyone agrees.

Yes. Everyone listening. I don't think anyone out there is like, no, this is perfect. No, they are great. Stanley Cup. And I'm sure we know Lou Lamorello agrees, Mike Babcock. I would be following the Anaheim Ducks around the clock because they have a lot of defensemen. They have a lot of good defensemen.

and they're only going to be permitted to protect a certain number of them in the expansion draft one of whom is Kevin Bieksa who's one of their not so good defensemen at this stage in his career but has a no move clause so yes that trade might not happen today and it might not even happen before the deadline they might choose to go through the year but you know prior to June 17th when teams have to put their expansion list in I would not be the least bit surprised to see the Ducks trade a pretty good D and if you're the Leafs and you need one so that's like that's the kind of stuff where i think that their ability to not just handle their own situation but to analyze the league because they have literally the preeminent expert on the cap working for the team

whose job is not only to manage their cap but to look at every other teams and look for for areas of weakness or areas where they might be able to attack i mean i think that that's i mean that's like that's when you're really winning right you're winning when you have austin matthews as a player but then you have all these other guys that are extremely useful So the Leafs have an extremely useful front office piece and Brandon Pridham that no one really talks about, but he's doing things and arming them with information that most other teams, they just don't have someone like that.

We sort of talked about that with the Penguins. Obviously the Penguins have Sidney Crosby, but thank goodness they had Connor Sheery too. You have Malkin, thank goodness they have Brian Rust. You need, we called them competent bums. It's not the most flattering name, but you need everyone to pull their weight. Well, and even having Nick Bonino be able to play on a third line

in the playoffs with Phil Kessel. Yeah. I mean, the fact that they had three scoring lines, that's one of the cool things with the Leafs right now, too, if we're going to bring it back to them, is they literally have three lines at score. Like, their top three goal scorers are Kadri, Matthews, and JVR, and they play on different lines.

And so the fact that they're getting that kind of, I guess, contribution from the different, like, it sort of weathers you, because at any given moment, one of those guys will be slumping, you would assume. And you're not putting all your eggs in one basket. I mean, this isn't like if Phil Kessel scores, the Leafs win or don't, right? That was literally, for a couple of years,

that's kind of what it was. It's like that line either got it done or they were in trouble, especially once they'd moved on from the Grabowski, Coulombe, and MacArthur line. After that, they just weren't getting a lot from lower in the lineup. For a little bit, Kadri was.

But anyway, now they have far more depth of scoring than they used to. And I think that makes them dangerous. That's why, to me, the Penguins won the Cup. I know there's all this argument about Crosby, Kessel, Kahn-Smythe. It's like they were a team, and that's how you get it done nowadays. And ultimately, it doesn't matter. Who cares who won the Kahn-Smythe?

You win the Stanley Cup. Did you win the Cup? Did you win the Cup? That's the question. To bring it back to management for a bit, so the name is loophole Lou, right? But you mentioned Brandon Pridham is kind of the resident expert there in all things cap and all that. I know Dubas works the phones quite a bit.

I don't know how much Mark Hunter is in every arena Always he has a portal Somewhere he's their ear to the ground Yes yes What does Lou do Or do you does anyone Even know that

Because he doesn't speak to anybody Well he does well sorry he doesn't leak He doesn't give up much yeah You know He's working the phone for sure Like when they're making trades I mean I think It's fair to say even signing Matt Martin And, like, that to me is a Babcock-Lew move written all over it, right?

Okay. Like, because we know that Kyle, who oversees the analytics department, likely, you know, that's not a move consistent with what we would expect analytically. But, you know, Lew is still making the final decisions here. I don't think there's—they're doing it by committee, as a lot of teams are, but everyone knows who's got the biggest hammer. And, you know, he might be Lew-Pole-Lew, but to me, when you have a cap, I mean, especially when you work for a rich team, you have to be looking for the Lew-Poles.

I mean, that's the only place they can get an advantage now. I mean, the NHL has stripped them of the ability to use their financial might as a clear-cut advantage, as it was prior to 2004 when the Red Wings and the Leafs and the Dallas Stars, the Rangers, those teams always spent way more than everybody else. Yeah, absolutely. And now you don't see that. And you don't have that ability. But to me, if you're a Leafs fan, if you're a Leafs owner, or if you're Brennan Shannon, the president,

I mean, you want to be trying to do everything within the gray of the rules. I almost applaud them for it. I think that where you're seeing some pushback in the hockey industry and where I'm hearing it is from people feeling that a few players have kind of gotten screwed, for lack of a better term, by it, that they've parked guys that they shouldn't. I mean, I think Stefan Robita raised eyebrows, but he was done. And he knew he was done.

I think it was an acceptance thing for him. We still don't know everything about the Joffrey Lupo situation, but my understanding is it's not as bad as I think what's being assumed and that he might be done. Ward's tough as, like, a Frank Corrado because he's young, he can play, and he's just caught in a bad spot. God, that list, it used to just, I mean, there's a reason it's called Robida Island because he used to be the only person on it.

Yeah. That joke, by the way, is repeated inside the walls. Oh, I know. Oh, I believe you. By guys on the payroll. Like, every once in a while, they'll just, like, walk by me and just make a joke about it. Really? Yeah.

I think they're aware, too. It was great hearing Lamorello say the Shani plan at the draft for the first time. Like, oh, he gets it! He gets it! He gets it! Lou seems like if you were able to get him in a social situation, he might be a fun guy. Well, they're all fun guys. He's not, like, a fun dude.

Man, they're all fun guys. I mean, they work in hockey for a living. I mean, at the end of it, I think most people, when they're realistic, even if you're doing the jobs we're doing or their jobs like you realize you got it pretty good and it's just that it's a high stress environment there's a lot expected of them you know they're getting paid a lot of money they're they're they're in charge of a lot of money like they have you know i'm sure they they i'm sure they go to a game in vancouver for example see all those leaf fans and every once in a while still go holy crap like this thing is big yeah it is like like you feel like you're you're

you know it's a huge ship you don't want to be the titanic but you feel like you're you're at the wheel of something large right and obviously you want to deliver on it i think the same was of brian burke and dave known as they just didn't get it right but right you know i i think that that i think almost in a way that's probably inhibited some guys in the past is just worrying about all the range of opinions out there worry you know brian burke was so active in the media like i loved him for it selfishly because every press conference like it was like must see tv yeah it still is oh yeah he would come he would come up with a line that would be repeated for the next six months like verbatim and stories right like whether it's 18 wheeler off a cliff

or truculence pittsburgh model my ass yeah like all that stuff like it was great it was great theater and it was great for what we do but might not have been great for running the team right i mean maybe the focus wasn't always where it should have been again easy for me to say i've never had that power but i think in some ways what's great about lou is that he's he's insulated himself from a lot of that stuff and day to day their only focus is remaining on course

and making the right decisions so okay so you're calling the Ducks full time you're making that a full time job calling them asking about I would just have them

on speed dial who would you try to who would be the target on that team do you think maybe Sammy Votnin I mean if we assume they're not trading

Hampeth Lindholm which I really wish they would yeah I don't think so I mean if they had a chance they didn't sign him for until what late October

you know they're very high on Josh Manson. Cam Fowler, I guess, is another possibility. But he's not... Is he defensively responsible? Like, is that a guy that... There's some debate.

Now he's playing under Carlisle, too, which just skews everything to new... Woo! Holy smokes. Did you see the highlights from last night? Yeah. Oh, they left Bernier in?

Poor Bernier. Did you see Randy Carlisle's postgame? I did not. I can only imagine. He said, well, we had to leave Bernier in there because Gibson had diarrhea. What?

Yeah, he was sick. Did you see it, Chris? This is the first I've learned of this. Randy said that to the reply. He was like, yeah, actually, John Gibson had diarrhea, so we couldn't, we had to leave Bernie in there. I was like, wow. Come on. I look at that.

There's no way. I was petting my dog this morning, and I was like, he actually just said that. Wow. Most people would just say lower body injury. I applaud him for that honesty. Me too. And illness. Me too.

I think maybe that comes from being here and knowing that people can pick apart anything and assume anything, right? Right. But wow. It kind of closes the door on the debate, though. Sure does. Why'd they do that? Oh, John Gibson diarrhea is just all over the place. I hope someone sends them a crate of Pepto-Bismol, just for fun.

Can you imagine, let's say John Gibson's single, right? And he meets some girl. She looks him up. Yeah, I play for the Ducks. Yeah, if someone looks him up today, the first result they're going to find is John Gibson diarrhea. Wow. John, if you're listening, stay off Tinder today. Maybe for the next year.

Stay off Tinder and on the toilets. The internet never forgets. CJ, who else? I mean, because you've got a guy like, say, Shattenkirk. He's up at the end of the season. Is that the right fit? Are they looking for a veteran guy? Are they looking for younger guys?

Are Trouba or Dougie Hamilton-type players, where you'd have to give up a lot to get them, are they worth going after? Or is it free agent? What is it? Where they at least have to be careful, this goes not just for the defensemen, but in general, is where they spend their money now. because we're not that far off. These guys are all excited about getting paid like superstars,

as they deserve. But, I mean, in a cap world, there's sort of a zero-sum game at work. And, you know, that's why it's going to be fun. Like, it's going to be tough, Steve, because I know you're falling in love with this group. I know. Like, I can see it in your eyes. Like, I haven't seen you this happy in a long time.

It's whether they win or lose, it's hope. It's hope every game, minus the, like, seven nothing loss. But the problem is if you look at other teams that have gone through this way, the Leafs have, at some point they're going to have to start losing some of the guys. I don't even want to name names because it's unfair at this early in their career, but some of the guys that aren't those central pieces, once the central pieces get paid and then those guys are considered good second or third liners and they want to get paid,

there isn't going to be enough money for it all the time, right? You almost have to do the Hawks model. Keep the five great players. That's the reality, man. Or Penguins. It's just the model now. It used to just be them. If you have a superstar, keep them.

Everybody else is sort of expendable. Well, it's just the reality because the bottom line is, guys, you can find like a 25-goal score. I mean, you're going to have to pay for it. But it's just the guys that can get like 40 goals or the superstars are so hard to find, so you just do everything you can to hold on to them and you figure the rest out.

So that's a long way of saying, so Kevin Shattenkirk, who's an unrestricted free agent this summer, like he's gonna get six million maybe north maybe above because there will be a bidding war he's far away the best one he's he's great and he's free like other than the cost but yeah but like potentially on july 1st he's free i mean a lot of people think he's earmarked for the new york rangers and so maybe there won't be a huge bidding war maybe that will just happen but uh you know if the leafs were to get in on that it's going to cost a lot and then And again, I'm sure you start moving the pieces around on the chessboard and that would have

long-term effects, especially if you're signing a six or seven year deal. So does a Kapanen, Leipzig, someone like that net you a guy who turns into what? Probably not. No, no. I think you're looking at like a Nylander to get something like Dougie Hamilton, to get a 22, 23 year old player. Do you need that? Is that what they need?

Or do you need someone who's going to play? I think that that's what they have to balance. I mean, to me, the answer is obvious. The best case scenario is you grow these guys yourself. That someone you've drafted or you're about to draft becomes those players is the best possible outcome for the Leafs. And where you get in trouble is if you try to rush the rebuild, is if you make the wrong decision in terms of trading one of those pieces away

and you just regret it forever. I think that that's what they have to really be careful of, especially because the way we started our talk today, they can make the playoffs. I mean, I don't think it's a huge priority at the management level. Obviously, on the ground, Mike Babcock wants to do it. The players want to do it. But you don't need to necessarily make the playoffs this year.

I mean, think of that anyway. I don't know that I can say 100% one way is the right way. But there's a lot of risk in the next steps, no matter what they are. Even if you just sign someone, you're like, well, he's free. Well, it's like, yeah, he's free. That's money we can't spend on someone else. And the next two or three summers are going to be fascinating. It will be, especially, well...

Because they have to be winning by then. Like, that's the reality. Yeah. Yep. Like, they don't, to me, this will sound like it doesn't make sense. They don't have to make the playoffs this year, but they have to be contending two years from now. As crazy as that is, but I mean, we saw the Blackhawks do it, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I believe they missed the first year, went to the Western Conference Final the second year, and won the cup the third year of Taves and Kane. Penguins, too. They missed, got killed by the Sens in the first round. Final. Then killed the Sens in the first round and made it to the final, and then they won the won the damn thing right but i mean and poor hosa was on the losing side of those finals like

jonathan taves kicked in a crazy bonus because he won the cons might in his third year like on his entry-level contract like he got a 1.5 million dollar bonus for winning a major trophy which by the way if austin matthews or uh would be the same for him he's got the full bonuses so if the leafs ever went in these three years that he's on an entry-level deal and won and he won a con smith or a heart trophy somewhere along the way he would get a similar type of bonus but it literally cost some players right off their roster but that's what you have to i mean that's you trade all that like if you're stan bowman even as much like right now their cap picture is bleak like they couldn't even sign a guy to be their backup on the weekend uh you know when they lost

cory crawford his appendectomy because they don't have money to sign a player for one day and so they had to bring in they had to bring in an amateur to be the backup but it was a cap issue my point is they're dealing with the cap every single day they've lost all these great players over the years, but they won three cups, so it's worth it. Yes. It's good problems to have. My point is the picture's never perfect. It's only perfect when you've got a cup ring in there somewhere.

Oh, 100%. But like the Penguins, every year they're just trying to mix and match those useful whatever you referred to them. Competent bums. They've got their one-two centerman plugged in. They've got Chris Letang on the first pairing, and then they're just moving everything else around and trying to stay under the cap and trying to win.

And when you win, it was all worth it, but it's chaos. and that's where the Leafs are going to get. They're going to have four or five superstars and then hope that they draft well to keep bringing the Brandon Sodds of the world up and then have to lose them. Right, and they're in the bonus year right now because at the absolute craziest

like if somehow Austin Matthews has a crazy year, the most he makes is $2.85 million. So if you look around the league at how many guys make above that and don't do anything, like not, don't do anything that's that exciting. Are not worth it. I mean, they're in a great spot. That's still less than Leo Komaroff.

Exactly. And he's unlikely to hit that. I mean, that's only if he wins a major trophy, not including the Calder, like winning a Hart Trophy or finishes top 10 in scoring or whatever, which it's not all around a possibility, but let's face it, if you're projecting, not likely. So my point is, while you have these

guys on those contracts for three years, you gotta make some hay. And I think that's why they're right to think about the playoffs, because I listen to a lot of radio guys, and most people in Toronto, in the mainstream on the radio, are like, ah, it's still early in the rebuild and all this.

It's like, no. Like, the rebuild's over, frankly. We're built. Now it's just a build. And now they've got to get it done at some point in a smaller window than most people think. Because it's not a coincidence that the Penguins won one and then waited a long time to win the second. Because they had to go through a whole bunch of turnover

in the middle, and they still somehow arrived back there with the same players, which is awesome for them. But, like, Sidney Crosby was so emotional. You know, I covered that playoff run just because he's like, we never thought, like, it crosses mind that they would never get back there. Like, you gotta get it done quickly, and it's hard to sustain. Yeah, and for a while

there, people were calling for Evgeny Malkin to be traded. Oh my god. Or for Rutherford to be fired. Yeah, which we did. We were like, well, I don't know. Yeah, I was like, look what they've done to this team, this dynasty that should have been, and then they fired their coach, and that literally fixed the entire problem.

Yeah, and traded for Trevor Daly. That was the other one. Yeah. Those were the two things they did. So we got to wrap it up on the radio here when we go when you go to sportsnet.ca or itunes wherever you hear this show for the download portion we have got to talk to doug sifu of the florida panthers we're going to give him a call literally as the show ends right now on the radio portion thanks for listening uh it's brought to you by panago pizza it's what's on the inside that counts uh so we'd like to welcome to the show a uh a man who is well known for revolutionizing

wall street he's also a well-known hockey expert barista yeah uh what else do you do what else can we put on your resume? Pisses off Doug McLean. I'm a legitimate, I think, 10 handicap. Oh, there you go. Legitimate 10 handicap. Yeah. Is that a golf thing? Yeah, well, that's the handicap card. Maybe 11. I can't remember. We'll have to go Google that later. Definitely a golf thing, Steve. I would

sign that scorecard right now. Doug Sifu of the Florida Panthers, minority owner, and of course, owner as well as a virtue financial. So, Doug, let's just start from where this all blew up. How's

How's your week been? Oh, what blew up? What are you guys talking about? Well, you know, there was some things and some stuff. Beautiful day in the market today. Yeah. How are the markets this morning? Pretty good.

The Dow's up. Had the Italian referendum last night, so I was up at 3 in the morning, like, talking to some of my guys in Europe, you know? I'm a busy working guy. Got to pay these hockey bills for South Florida, you know? That's right. I feel like an idiot, because before we knew you were coming on, like, I just tweeted at you shot in the dark i was like what what how do you say this guy's name sifu sifu i don't know

seafood and i'm making fun of your name and then i see an interview that you did with a youtuber named lucas and you're italian i'm italian and i didn't know who actually is probably the correct pronunciation but it's been americanized oh okay all right fair enough so many things so it's been an interesting last week for you um yep and the team uh you know i think what it what it did for everybody was it seemed to suggest one clear pathway. Is that correct? Am I correct in saying that? I don't know about that. I mean, look, it was a very, very difficult decision for everybody involved. And, you know, obviously we respect, you know, the opinions of others, the hockey pundits out there, the writers and whatnot. But, you know, we decided as a group and obviously

Vinny is a managing partner that we were going to move in a different direction. And, you know, we've said all along to our players and to the press and to everybody and the coaches in the front office that it's all about accountability and results at all levels. You know, we do everything we possibly can to provide, you know, that we think the best players and give the players everything necessary that they have to win. And everybody's got to be, you know, rowing in the same direction.

We have, you know, we have, as Tom said, a difference in philosophy with Gerard. And, you know, Gerard's a wonderful man. He's a really nice hockey coach and, you know, had a lot of success with us. But, you know, we're not about, this isn't a popularity contest. We get, Gerard's a very popular figure up in Canada and other parts, and this is a bit of a polarizing decision, to put it mildly.

But, you know, we just got to have everybody on the same page and rowed in the same direction. And, you know, to me, this isn't about analytics or not analytics. I mean, you know, I find it amusing, you know, that Tom Rowe, who's 60 years old, you know, an old school hockey guy, played 300-plus games in the NHL. he's got hands as big as meat hooks and like you know used to throw used to throw him and every time he shakes my hand i thought he's gonna crush my hand the guy's a monster uh you know he spent spent years in hockey at various different levels you know he he's he's not exactly like a computer boy you know i don't think tom could actually turn his uh pc on without some help so

this isn't old school versus new school it's just you know we decided we're gonna all go in one direction and that a change was needed in order to make that direction successful. And so here we are. Doug, from where I sit, I think, you know, part of what you saw the reaction from, and again, this is my opinion, is it was in some ways an un-hockey move. I mean, and hockey's a very conservative, traditionally, environment, business-wise and otherwise, and you're sitting here with three younger people of the media, so we're not coming at you saying it should continue that way.

I mean, is it fair to say that maybe some of what you and Vinny and others working for the organization have learned in your business life is applying to how you're running a hockey team and how that might? I mean, look, we we get it. You know, the game is larger than everybody and it's been around, you know, for a long, long time. And we have great respect for the traditions of hockey. And, you know, I've said this publicly before. I mean, I'm awestruck by the tenacity and the strength and the gladiator-like spirit of these players. I mean, now that I have the blessing of actually getting down near the ice and occasionally getting to go into the locker room and see them after practices and games, I mean, I'm just awestruck by what it takes to be a professional hockey player. So we have tremendous, tremendous respect for everybody in the game.

But, you know, when we bought this franchise in 2013, it was not doing particularly well on or off the ice. And we said, listen, we are very good at operating businesses. That's what we do. We started this firm, Virtue Financial. Vinny and I are partners in other things together. You know, Vinny has had a long history on Wall Street. I was a pretty successful lawyer here in New York and said, we said we're going to apply, like, our operating discipline and accountability to a professional sports franchise. So, you know, ironically, we didn't come in there and just blow the place up, right?

We came in there and said, all right, we're going to take a look at everybody and everything from, frankly, you know, the GM on down to, you know, the secretary in the office and say, you know, what are people doing? Let's measure their success or lack of success and then be honest and forthright with people. And sure, have we replaced a lot of people? Absolutely. But it wasn't a rash decision. We didn't just go to West Point and bring a bunch of Army guys in. It's kind of silly and borderline offensive to suggest that. And we were very careful and thoughtful about it.

And parenthetically, you know, we've dropped about $100 million in the last three years for that pleasure. So, you know, we were thoughtful and mechanical about it. Obviously, this coaching situation has kind of created this whole firestorm of analytics versus non-analytics, which I think is a little kind of obfuscates kind of what we've tried to do over the last three years. But it is what it is. I called it the Battle of Sunrise in a video that I did because, I mean, whether you like it or not, you are kind of, I guess, the latest front in the analytics versus non-analytics debate. But getting away from whether that's even accurate or true or not, are you kind of reveling in this almost us-against-the-world sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, look, reveling is the wrong word, right?

Like, I don't relish, you know, my wife gets upset when people, like, pound me on Twitter and social media. I mean, I kind of chuckle about it. I know she's a little upset about some of this stuff. And, you know, she's a tough woman. I mean, like, it's not a lot of fun to have, you know, ex-hockey coaches or whatever they are and, you know, other commentators who used to talk about hot dog carts or whatever that guy did up in Toronto. Like, you know, all of a sudden calling us computer boys and army guys. I mean, it's just superficial nonsense, and I get that. And I just ignore all that stuff.

Other than the fact, actually, I did look for that suit that Don Sherry was wearing in a 48 Husky, and I could not find it. We have a tailor up here. We know where Don's tailor is. We can hook you up. Yeah. I was thinking, I thought it would be really funny if I went on Twitter and tell me what you guys think. We can do a Twitter poll. Maybe you guys can help me out with a Twitter poll.

If I started like a GoFundMe campaign to buy one of me those suits in 48 Husky, what do you think? I think we could do that, yeah. A little too cheeky? Is it a little too cheeky? Not at all. No, my goodness. Is it a little too cheeky? Yeah, I don't want to be too snarky.

I mean, but anyhow. You don't want to be too snarky, Doug? The guy whose Twitter picture is a T-shirt that says hockey expert? You don't want to be too snarky, Doug? Yeah, that was snarky. That was a little too snarky, but I thought that was kind of funny. It is. I mean, it sort of goes to the point, which is, look, we're not trying to revolutionize a sport.

All we're saying is, I'll give you a perfect example, right? So, like, in 2007, Vinny comes to me and says, you know, I was a practicing lawyer. I was his lawyer, his friend. And he says, we're going to start this firm called Virtu Financial. We're going to be the largest electronic market maker in the world. I'll be honest with you, and I've said this privately and publicly. I didn't know a bit from an offer. I didn't know anything about market structure.

I didn't know really anything about the financial markets at all. I mean, I was a corporate lawyer, but it was not what I did. And I said, Vinny, you sure? He said, yeah, you're a smart guy. You'll figure it out. And so I figured it out, and then nine years later, I'm the CEO of a multibillion-dollar public company that's the largest electronic market-making firm in the world. Now, my partner is brilliant and unbelievably tactically involved and whatnot and experienced and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, it's just something that you have to put your mind to and learn.

That's what technology is all about. That's what I did here. I'm not a technologist. I'm not a computer boy, but I'm not afraid of it. So I think what you're really seeing here is people saying, and I'm saying, and others are saying, listen, we get it. It's hockey. We never played it. But at the end of the day, there are certain things that you can look at that are objective. And you can make an objective determination as to whether you think someone is a better fit for your team

than not a better fit, that someone should get paid X and someone should get paid Y, all those kind of things. So rather than just have like a feel or throw spaghetti against the wall, We're trying to be a little more thoughtful about how we construct a team. Now, are we perfect? No. Have we made mistakes? Absolutely. Is this 100% about analytics versus non-analytics? No. As I say to people, Dale's very involved with everything we do.

We've got Pete Mihaljevic, who we talk to regularly. Tom Rowe isn't exactly like a computer boy. Eric Joyce, everyone calls him the computer boy. Sure, he went to Harvard. He's a very smart guy, but the kid played hockey at West Point. I think he got thrown out of a couple games for fighting. I mean, he's not exactly like a pencil-neck geek. So I think this is a little bit people being afraid, if you will, or concerned that there may be a different way to do things

or maybe other people with different points of view can help construct a professional sports organization in a way that's very progressive. It's not trying to disrespect the game. It's not saying we're going to do everything completely differently, but let's at least open our eyes and be thoughtful about it. That's all we're doing. Doug, there aren't many people in your shoes that have public-facing Twitter accounts. I'm wondering why you operate one and if you could share any funny stories or anything that's come of it.

What do you like about it? The honest answer is I had no clue about social media. I never did it. I wasn't really involved. I didn't have a Facebook account, that kind of thing. Vinny and I kind of talked about it, and I'm a people person. I think this whole mystique around ownership is completely overdone. At the end of the day, Vinny and I are both blue collar Italian guys from, I'm from Long Island, he's from Brooklyn, and we've been blessed beyond belief, you know, with our business success.

We worked really hard for it, but we've been blessed. And so we're living this adolescent fantasy of having the ability to help influence a professional sports franchise. So the notion that, like, somehow I interact with people, like, all right, so what? I mean, at the end of the day, like, it's just a moniker, right? This notion of being an owner. I'm a regular guy. And I was the guy in 1988 that scraped together $14 a game to go sit in the blue seats at Madison Square Garden and watch the Rangers play. Like, I know how hard it is to make money and have to pay.

I was in law school at the time. I didn't have any extra money. So I completely respect the idea that people are working hard and giving us their very, very valuable discretionary entertainment dollars. So why shouldn't I give them the respect of responding to them? So, like, just today, some young lady that I met down in South Florida, I think she's, like, 17 or 18, like, she tweets, it's her dream to meet Dennis Malgan, who's one of our young players. So, sure, I invite her to a morning skate, I think, next week, and Dennis will take five or ten minutes and say hello to her, right? Like, what's the big deal? That's what we should do.

That's kind of part of our responsibility of being a steward of, like, a great professional sports franchise. The one thing that I've been completely blown away by, completely blown away, and you saw this last week, is just the power of sport, right? It brings communities together, and it makes people, you know, next to politics and religion. I've never seen emotional reactions like this. I had people in towns in Canada I've never heard of, you know, trolling me and harassing me about firing a coach in South Florida that they'd never met before. I get it. God bless them. But I was like – I said to my wife, I said, you know, like, it's amazing that people will take the time to come and abuse me about something that they know absolutely nothing about, and they probably feel this cathartic sense of relief.

So if that helps, that's cool. That's one of the reasons I want to do it. I want to be the punching bag and also get the pat on the back. Well, Doug, welcome to the internet. Yeah. That's what it's all about. Exactly. I want to ask you, because I know what you guys started in 2008 with Virtue.

There's some similarities to what is going on with the Panthers that happened in 2008. I mean, you guys started that company in probably the worst financial year since the 1930s. Yeah. And it's amazing. Brilliant guys, aren't we? Yeah, that's right. The world's burning up. Let's start a financial firm.

Your timing was phenomenal. Thank you. The question that I have is, you know, at that point, Wall Street was a very conservative, things are done, not conservative, but things are done this way, this is the way we do things, this is how we make money, and you came in, you upset that apple cart. When you look at the NHL, and there is this conservative, this is our way, this is how it's done, you don't know any better, is there a little bit of that kind of fire in you, that renegade that kind of goes, yeah, you know what, I don't believe that, and I think

we can do it our way? Oh, boy, is that a softball. Okay, I've got to be a little careful here, right? Yeah, the answer is absolutely yes. I mean, Vinny and I are not zealots, right? We didn't come into this to, like, put Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan out of business. Quite the contrary. What we are is an efficiency creator.

All we've done is take technology and automation and apply it to a very important financial intermediation function. I know that sounds really fancy, but you've got a buyer and seller of something. You need somebody that's in the middle to manage that risk between a buyer and seller. That's called a market maker, okay? And so 30 years ago, you had trading rings in Toronto and in Calgary and in Kansas City and Chicago and New York and Amsterdam where human beings did that. Okay, Vinny's genius. And with other folks, he realized, you know, 20 years ago that you could have a computer take those same if-then inputs and reduce that human function into an automated function

that a computer could do, frankly, better, faster, and with more resiliency. And that's all we did at Virtu. So we took the spread, in other words, the price between a buyer and what a seller has to pay and what the transaction costs are. We helped collapse that. So today, if you're a widow sitting in Omaha, you want to buy 100 shares of GE, or you're sitting up in Saskatoon Saskatoon and you want to buy a hundred shares of Rogers or something like that, your transaction

cost to do that is literally like, you know, almost a hundredth of what it used to be. And the spread that you have to pay is literally a penny of, and it used to be a quarter at least. Okay. So we've helped create that efficiency. That's all Virtue did. Now that was a threat. You're right. There were hundreds of men and women that were in those trading rings that were supported by that. And unfortunately, a lot of them ended up losing their jobs and it was a new way of looking at things but we work in collaboration with the banks and we're very constructive in how we work with them and they've adopted some of our technology we trade now with jp morgan and others and whatnot and i'm wasting your time talking about financial markets but i

find it interesting three four years ago three four years ago there was this whole uproar about high frequency trading and michael lewis came out with this book called flashboys and if you google flashboys and virtu and doug sifu you'll see you know they wanted me to go on tv they wanted they were saying i was a criminal we're going to go to jail we were cheating blah blah blah to me it was all the same reaction, a similar reaction to people saying, listen, you guys are doing something different. It's got to be wrong. You can't always be successful. You can't always be making money. You've got

to be doing something wrong. So is there an analogy? Absolutely. Am I suggesting that every old school hockey person is going to be gone? No. But you've got to adapt, man. There's got to be guys like Tom Rowe that I'm telling you cannot turn on their computer. The guy's 60 years old. He's been in hockey for 45 years. He started playing in Lynn Mass

when he was 12 years old. Made the NHL. And you know what? He embraces it? He says, look, it's a good way to look at players. I've had great conversations with Tom about it. Even Dale Tallent. I'll tell you what, Dale's not an old-school guy. He's not going to sit there and rattle off Corsi and Fenwick. By the way, I don't even know what those things

mean. But Dale's a guy that will listen. Pete Mihaljevic, he loves his analytic stuff. Loves it. Talks to Steve Worre about it all the time. So there are people that are willing to listen and adapt and get better. Is it the be-all, end-all?

absolutely not do we have a bunch of like mit nerds running our running our team absolutely not uh you know i wouldn't call tom and dale and pete nerds i mean you know we re-signed sean thornton and the analytics guys crushed us like why would you do that we traded dylan dylan macklerath and everyone's like you know we've got two of the toughest guys in the nhl on our team so look we're not we're not but i really do think your question is a fantastic I think there's a real, you know, almost backlash against, hey, maybe there's a different way to do this. I just don't understand why, you know, really smart people that didn't have the blessing of having to be able to put on skates and play hockey really well can't at least add some value to putting together a hockey team.

Well, that's why I'm putting in a bid to become a GM in the NHL one day. I think it's possible. Anything is possible. I like to live my dreams. So I'm sure a lot of people have asked you this on Twitter already, but let's get audio of it. Do you have a hockey background at all pre-Florida Panthers? Zero.

Just a fan. Amazing. Just a fan. Yeah, and I'm proud of that. And it doesn't mean, look, obviously I kind of had some fun at Doug McLean's expense on the hockey expert thing because I just thought it was kind of odd, odd let's put it that way that he was targeting me but putting that aside look i get it you know he's friends with gerard and i would react the same way and i totally respect his his point of

view if one of my friends had a situation might i lash out like that i would and i said you know what like i people have always said i've got a good sense of humor so i decided to have a little bit of fun with it and i did tweet him back and i thought it was kind of amusing but uh i'm not going to do any more of that but at the end of the day i don't consider myself a hockey expert I don't even know what that means. I mean, we surround ourselves with guys that have a lot of experience, right? The Dales, the Peets, the Toms. We surround ourselves with people that haven't played the game but, like, are pretty good at doing some analytical work.

And those are all inputs, right? But, you know, the eye test is important, right? The same as the, you know, same as the computer test. And the hot dog test, right? Yeah, and the hot dog test. I've got some of the work that the guys in Vancouver did, you know, the Vancouver Army, whatever you call it. Canucks Army. Yeah, you hired half of them.

You should know their names. Better than the Vancouver Canucks. I mean, I read that article. I thought it was kind of fascinating, actually, and I think there's a lot of value in that. I mean, you know, you look at, to be blunt, look at the Florida Panthers draft history the last, you know, five, six, seven, eight years.

You know, it has not been spectacular. Yeah, Zach Hyman was a great pick. One of the things we're trying to fix. Right, absolutely. Go ahead, Steve. So you've referenced Dale Tallon a number of times in this interview, and I've seen previous interviews where, you know, Dale Talon, Dale Talon, the guidance of Dale Talon. Well, one thing that ruffled feathers long before the Gerard Gallant firing

was everyone seemed to think the promotion of Dale Talon was kind of a false promotion. He was promoted in title, but in fact his powers had been taken away. What is his role with the team beyond his title? Yeah, I think what concerns people or confuses people, to put it bluntly, is that, you know, we have a different structure, right? Like, you know, at Virtu, titles are meaningless. I don't have an organizational chart here, right? I'm the CEO and there's a big,

and Vinny's on top of me, right? Because he's the majority owner. And there's a big box that says people that work at Virtu, right? So it's a little chaotic. And obviously I've got people that have been more senior here than not, but I've got 152-ish employees. And every one of them I interact with

and every one of them kind of, you know, reports to me, yeah, we have some other people, but I don't have a head of this and a head of that. So we're not big title guys. And so, you know, in looking at the structure of an NHL club, does it make sense to have a single person that is really good at scouting, is really good at negotiating contracts, is really good at going to that rink in Saskatoon

and finding that kid that no one else has found, and is really good at counting sticks and pucks and managing a budget, right? There may be a human being that can do all four of those, and I'm sure there are examples you could give me in the NHL, but you know what that's those are four kind of very diverse skill sets right and so what we decided to do was take each of those skill sets and put people in charge of them that we thought were really good at each of those four skill sets so you know i think dale is like said this a thousand times he's a hockey whisperer the guy is great at identifying hockey talent particularly

young talent uh i talk to him as much as i talk to and vinnie does as well as much as i talk to Tom Rowe, as much as I talk to Eric Joyce and Steve Worry, actually probably more, because I find Dale a lot more entertaining and amusing than Worry and Joyce. He's actually a really funny, funny guy. So, you know, we get a lot of good input from him. So is he doing the same thing he was doing before we bought the team or the first two years? No, he's not.

Right. But I think in some ways we're getting the best out of him, because rather than me being up as you know what about like, you know, a budget or, you know, did we have 18 extra sticks and we only needed 15? I'm kidding. You know, he doesn't have to worry about that stuff anymore, so have him do what he's good at. And the same token, you know, Steve's a good, Steve's a former lawyer as well, or is currently a lawyer, excuse me, so he's good at negotiating contracts. You know, I think Dale's probably relieved he doesn't have to deal with that, and Steve was very busy in the off-season negotiating contracts, and I think, frankly, he did a pretty nice job.

So I think we've kind of come up with a new paradigm here a little bit, and that confuses people, and so we get into words as to promotion and titles and all this kind of stuff. You know, you can ask Dale yourself. You know, at some level I'm sure he was disappointed that a lot of his, you know, duties were changed. But on the other hand, I think he, you know, he's pretty happy, you know, with his role on the team. He's got a lot of direct access to Vinny and myself. And, you know, he's a really important part of what we're trying to do here. Elliot Friedman interviewed Tom Rowe. and I think it was kind of like the first big interview

anyone in the organization had really done since the firing. One thing that seemed crystal clear to me by the end of it was this was an ownership decision to go in a different direction with Gerard Gallant. Would you agree with that? Well, here's what I would say. I mean, I think, yeah, ultimately Vinny's the controlling owner and all that kind of stuff, as Doug has said a number of times,

I'm just a minority owner. And so at the end of the day, yeah, sure. Just a minority owner, Doug. Just a pilot. As my mother-in-law would say, what a Shonda that is. What a Shonda. But look, at the end of the day, everybody was supportive of it, right? It wasn't like Tom was beating his chest against the wall.

I mean, I wasn't there, frankly. I was on a plane to Dublin, so Vinny and Tom had this conversation, and then Vinny, Tom, and Gerard had the conversation. But, you know, look, Tom's an honest guy, and we're not trying to hide behind our GM. And I know Vinny spoke to Dale about it, and it's not like it was just some rash decision that was made. I completely regret the circumstances, you know,

the photo with the taxi and all that kind of stuff, which was unbelievably distorted and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it's not who we are, and it's not how we want to reflect our relationship with Gerard. I mean, for heaven's sake, we just extended the guy in January, and we thought the world of him, and we were very optimistic that he would be the right person to lead this team to a Stanley Cup when ultimately we concluded that that was not the case.

You know, we took action. You know, should we have done it in Chicago or after the road trip or here, there, everywhere? Sure, that's, you know, hockey fans and commentators will second-guess and be critical of that, and I completely respect their right to do that, and, you know, in some instances they're right. I mean, it would have been a lot, I would have felt a lot better if we hadn't had those pictures come out and whatnot.

But at the end of the day, this was a very, very difficult decision for everybody involved. I think it reflected the collaborative and collective view of everybody in the organization that was talked to about it, and so we took action. So, okay, we've already decided that we don't know what hockey person means. Hockey expert. Hockey expert, I don't think I'll ever know.

But we have identified Tom Rowe as a hockey guy. I think, yeah, 45 years in hockey And hands like meat hooks Means that Yeah, totally, I get it And he is now your GM Have you ever shook the guy's hand? By the way, he'll crush you, so be careful

No, but I look forward to it I look forward to getting crushed So he's a hockey guy He's currently your team's GM He's your team's coach He's got the keys right now But this is a guy who in that interview with Friedman

identified the first period of that game against Carolina as the best first period that team had had all season. So for me, it's hard to look. I know you say it's not a rash decision, but with everything I read and everything I see, it gets harder and harder for me to not see it that way. Yeah. Well, I think he also said the second period

was one of the most disappointing periods of the season and whatnot. So I think that's kind of a little bit the yin and the yang of what the Panthers have been this year. I mean, at times we look like that 103-point division-winning team. At other points, we candidly don't. So I think it was really just the inconsistency in a way that was almost like a microcosm of the season of the first 22 games. And it sort of was the triggering point for us to move forward. I mean, I think Tom put it very well. He said, look, there's just a difference.

He said the following day, there's a difference in philosophy here, and we were hopeful that everyone would sort of get behind what we were trying to do here and accomplish. And at the end of the day, you know, we all felt collectively that that was not the case, and so we made a decision. I mean, I get it. People will second-guess it, you know, we should have flown to Chicago, you know, all that kind of stuff. I just think in a way, you know, Vinny and I are used to when we need to make a change or decide we want to do something, you know, it's always been our history just to take action because, you know, there may be repercussions in the moment and whatnot. But at the end of the day, the organization needs a clear vision and needs to move forward.

And that's kind of what we decided to do. Did you learn from this, do you think? because I think the obvious solution to me, like this does not blow up nearly as big as it does without that picture. Without Gerard Gallant outside the arena in Carolina. Was that a learning experience? Absolutely. Look, I mean, I said five minutes ago, and I've said to people privately,

you know, it was not the way that we wanted this to go down, obviously. It showed us, you know, look like we were a dysfunctional organization when quite the opposite is the case. We're very unified, and we collaborate, and we talk a whole heck of a lot, and there's no politics. And, you know, we try to be very collaborative in our decision-making and whatnot. But it was, you know, it was not how we wanted to be reflected. I felt awful that it embarrassed Gerard. He's an unbelievably talented and very, very decent man. and he's never been anything but very cordial and friendly to me

and, more importantly, to my 13-year-old son, who was so mad at me the next day because he loves Gerard. And so, look, I mean, it was frankly an embarrassment. And, you know, we have apologized to Gerard, and he, because he's such a mensch, on his own, you know, contacted Friedman and said, you know, the whole taxi thing didn't go down that way. It was 100% his decision.

But had I been there, would I have managed it differently? Absolutely. I'm more experienced with dealing with crises than other folks are. Tom was busy running around and our team services guy did his best to try to make the situation not be as awkward as it was. But at the end of the day, it looked terrible. It didn't reflect well on the Florida Panthers, and for that we apologize. I want to just move off that just for a second, Doug. And I want to ask you, okay, so it's 2012, 2013. The Florida Panthers are not pulling in more than, what, 5,000, 6,000 a night in seats. And here you guys come with, again, timing. You start this company in 2008 where it's one of the worst, toughest economies in 70 years. And then you take the team that literally loses the most money and you go, yeah, I want that one.

But where were you guys like, yes, this is a great opportunity? How did you come to that decision? That's like, why are you so stupid and arrogant? Not at all, not at all. But it's like – Can I rephrase the question? Move to strike. It's a challenge.

It seems like you guys like to cheat. I mean, look, at the end of the day, there's only 122 of these things, right? The professional sports franchise and the four major leagues, right? Vinny and I made this decision sitting at a Ranger game one day years and years ago. hey, wouldn't it be great if, you know, we work really well together, we think we know what we're doing, we've been successful here, you know, we're very, very humble about the success that we've been given, and we thought we could apply that to a sports franchise.

I happen to have had a house in South Florida for a long time because I cannot stand the winters here, and you haven't met me, but I do not look good in a bathing suit, so buying a beach house would not have been a great idea for me. And my boy at the time used to be a Devils fan. I was a Ranger fan, and so we used to go down to Sunrise a bunch and watch the Panthers play those teams and watch the Panthers play other teams. And we loved it.

And I said to Vinny one day, I said, you know, Vin, there's this team called the Florida Panthers. They've got this beautiful arena. It's a little bit far west, but it's in Broward County. It's really gorgeous. There's a good vibe there. It's a real family atmosphere. I said, you know, why don't you give Bettman a call,

and that might be something that would be cool for us. And he did. He met the commissioner, and it just so happened within, I don't know, a month or two or three, the Panthers were, you know, the prior owner wanted to get out. And so we, because of a combination of arrogance, stupidity, and excitement, decided to go take the leap. I mean, we knew we had a lot, a lot. There's a lot. It's a challenge. It was a lot to do.

It was really, you know, to be blunt with you, it was a lot worse than I even expected. Wow. It was a lot worse. I mean, it was, you know, we had a promotion. You know, this has been abused about in the media, so it was not us, but we had a deal with the Florida Lottery that if you had a losing lottery ticket, you'd get a Panther seat. So someone, like, tweeted out, well, that's garbage, isn't it?

So you're giving away seats for garbage. And you know what? They were right. They were right. So that's what we were dealing with. We had the $4 StubHub seats. So, look, we've worked really hard. We completely turned the franchise around.

We think we've done some good things on the ice in collaboration with our hockey experts. And we've pumped an ungodly amount of money, you know, into the franchise to try to stabilize it. We reached a great deal with Broward County. I mean, I spent the first two years of my tenure here with Vinny, you know, trying to understand French because people from various Quebec newspapers wanted to interview me and explain to me when I was moving the team to Quebec. I mean, we were really up against it for the first couple of years, my friends. When are you moving it to Quebec? at this juncture as soon as i get my uh as soon as i get my suit and 48 husky i'm out of here we're never moving we're never moving i i think to help along adam's very gently put question from

a couple minutes ago is why did you become part owner of the panthers because it certainly wasn't for the money yeah yeah yeah but that's that you know what i i don't know what to tell you other than uh we thought we could do something special with regard to a sports franchise and really turn it around and frankly and and i this i say this really sincerely from the bottom of my heart this is not about ego this is not about me and vinnie jumping on the ice and holding up a stanley cup you'll never see that happen you'll see a bunch of players and our coaches and our gms with the stanley cup this is all about the players they're the guys that play they're the guys that win we have very very little to do with it and more importantly it's all about the community there

is something really really powerful about sport when i got there in october of 2013 and i sit in the stands because i like to sit in the stands i can't stand these stuffer stuffy owner seats uh boxes whatever you call them i just find them so annoying i like to be down low and watch the game you know i saw like five six seven thousand rabid florida panther fans and i actually talked to some of them, and I said, why in the world would you be a Florida Panthers season ticket holder? You can buy a seat for $5 and stuff. You haven't been

to the playoffs in, I don't know, once in the last 12 years or whatever it was at the time. Why on earth would you? And they kind of looked at me quizzically, and they were like, you know, because we love the Florida Panthers. That is such a powerful dynamic. It's amazing how sport brings together a community.

And if we could actually get our act together, and we saw it a little bit in the playoffs last year, so there's nobody that wants to win more than Vinny and myself. This is 100% geared towards excellence and creating accountability in the organization and building a winning organization. Are people going to agree with what we do? No.

Are people going to get pissed off about trades and this and that? Absolutely. But everybody should know that our hearts and our heads are 100% dedicated to that singular purpose, which is to win a championship. I said last year when we made the playoffs and lost that the season was a failure and people kind of looked at me funny

and I said, yeah, we didn't win. Right? I mean, we don't come in second at Virtu every day. We come in first and we work harder. So that's what we're trying to do. I guess my question originally was going to be, and I didn't want to be disrespectful, but I was going to say, what the hell were you thinking? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't know.

My wife asks me that all the time. And then I get abused for being a minority partner who's just sending millions of dollars down to South Florida. So, you know, what kind of schmuck am I? So we had a podcast. I should have just bought a suite at Madison Square Garden It would have been cheaper We had a podcast Months ago

Where we ranted and raved about The Edmonton Oilers Because a story had come out That before the 2012 draft They had a vote I think it was between Nine people On who to draft first overall

Seven people Selected Ryan Murray two selected nail yakupov and one of those two people was daryl cates their owner therefore the team pick yakupov and time seems to have proved that decision wrong even though i liked yak at the time and probably would have picked him first but um i i yelled and screamed about that because i didn't think owners should be involved in hockey decisions at all and then i was speaking to someone about it and they're like well they pay the bills yeah so and it's hard to deny that where do you where do you sit there how involved do you think you and others should be i mean

i i think look i mean i think you need to know what's going on and and obviously manage the budget and whatnot and and challenge your people right so like i went to the draft this year because i just think it's cool to sit at the draft and walk around and there's you know Bobby Clark and Patrick Watt. I'm a fan at the end of the day, too. I pinch myself sometimes when Yager says hello to me, right? It's still pretty cool, right? Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah, and one out of every five times he actually knows my name, so it's even better, right? Does he still say hello after Gallant got fired? Yeah. I went to the draft because Keith Yandel was going to be there. I wanted to meet Dave Barr. I had interviewed him one time, but he was going to be there, so I thought it was a good thing.

So I'm on the draft floor, Vinny and I, and we're talking to Dale, and we're talking about our number one pick, and it just so happens, you know, the analytics guys like this kid Borgstrom a lot and Dale had gone to watch him skate in Chicago or some other place where there was some showcase or something like that and Vinny and I both went up to Dale at the same time

and said, what do you think of this kid Borgstrom? He says, you know, something like kid skates like the Wendy's, you know, one of these great, he's got great hands, you know, these Dale Talen-isms that, like, I can't nearly do as well. And Vinny looked at him and I obviously shook my head yes and said, Dale, if that's who you want to pick, that's

You got my support 100%. And so he became the consensus pick of the room. We were hoping he would still be available, and he was. I forget what we picked, 22 or 24, whatever it was. And so we picked Borgstrom. So that's how it works. We're not there in the room. These guys spend weeks and weeks together, our amateur scouts,

some of the computer boys we brought along. And we kind of forced that. We forced that friction. We've got a bunch of great guys now that respect each other enough that they can get in a room for a week or two weeks over months and months and months, and they can come out with a consensus view that makes a lot of sense.

Okay. That's just kind of how it works. I mean, I've heard some crazy things before. People are saying, oh, you should draft for this and that and all that kind of stuff. At the end of the day, let all those people get together and then say, hey, here's who we want to draft. And, I mean, what do I know?

I've never seen Henrik Borgström play. I don't even know what Finnish league he was in. So at the end of the day, he seemed like great, And the kid's playing great at Denver. I think he's leading the country in scoring, one of the best scorers in the country. And the kid we took in the second round, Morsharin or whatever his name is, he's got a great shot, and I know the guys liked him. So, you know, looks like we did a pretty good job this year.

You know, this is a true softball question, so get ready. I love it, baby. This is going to be the softest ball question you're going to get. I wanted to know, as a fan who has looked at teams and gone, I would love to own a team one day. What has been, in the last three years, the most fun experience? What's been the story that you're like, wow, I can't believe that happened and I can't believe I'm here? It's a layup.

I had breakfast with Wayne Gretzky. Actually, no, I got a better one than that. I got a better one. That was pretty cool, okay? And I was like, for once, I was kind of awestruck. And he's a wonderful man, by the way. Wow, what an honor it was. But even better than that.

So I go to the arena one day last season, and I had to go do something. Like, I don't know, meet a sponsor, whatever it was. My son is 12 at the time, and, you know, my best friend in the world, he always tags along. So I have to drop him someplace to babysit. And, you know, one of the best things I have, obviously, is I can go anywhere I want. So I go into the skate sharpening stick room,

because I know the guys will come in beforehand, and Danny will sit on the couch. And they're all nice to Danny. Like, Willie Mitchell was always great to him. He liked Eckblad. Brian Campbell was his favorite player. and they'll all talk to him. He'll just sit there, no problem.

And hopefully he won't put his hand into the stick sharpening machine, right? Yeah. Because his mother would kill me if that happened. So I go, half hour, I come back, okay? And I look on the couch and he's sitting with an older gentleman and they're watching the World Junior Championships.

I don't know what time of year that was on TV. And they're sitting there talking about it. And I look at it and I say to myself, I don't believe it. You know who it is? It's Bobby Orr. So there's my son sitting on a couch in a locker room with a bunch of professional hockey players

and he's hanging out with Bobby Orr and he's calling him Bobby. And I'm like, Mr. Orr, it's an honor to, you know, I know Bobby a little bit. Good to see you again. I'm Doug Seaford. He goes, I know who you are. He goes, you know, your son actually,

like, knows his hockey. I'm like, maybe he's the hockey expert. You know what? You know, I grew up, I went to one giant football game a year and we sat in section 332, four rows from the top, and we brought our own food, you know?

So, like, the fact that I have the blessing that I can give this to my son is, you know, it makes me, it makes me very emotional because that's really what this is all about for us. It's about, you know, having our family do something really fun. And as I said, try to share it with other people. So this young lady that's going to get to meet Dennis Malgin, that makes me feel great. This past week, I had a kid, you know, tweet me that he loved Nick Bukestad. I happen to know who the kid is. And so I made him go, he lives up in Ottawa, the young man. So I had him come to the morning skate and he got to watch his hero skate around. And Nick's a great

guy, Nick signed a puck for him. So that, you know, that's, those are the fun things that we can do, um, that really make this all worthwhile. It seems like a good time. It really, really does. Like, I mean, you know, a lot of pressure, uh, and sometimes the, you know, things blow up like they did last week, but, uh, it's just an incredible, it's an incredible game and it's incredible thing to be around. Yeah, it really is. Look, I, I'm so privileged and honored and Vinny would say the same thing and humbled to be part of this magnificent game. I mean, I, you It's largely a Canadian game. I get that.

I have tremendous respect for even the guys that were abusing me this week. We have a lot of respect for them and what they've meant to the game over the years, and I really do sincerely mean that. And at the end of the day, we try really, really hard to do the right thing all the time. But you know what? We're going to do what we think is right. We may not win every popularity contest. We're not going to win the Stanley Cup every year, but we're going to try really hard.

We've been really transparent about our ticketing policy down in South Florida. We spent a boatload of money this year. One of the criticisms of the Panthers was, you know, guys would come, play their entry-level deal, and leave after three or seven years, whatever it was. And so we locked up, you know, our core. You guys, you know all the names for a long time. So we're trying to do all the right things.

Are we always going to be successful? No. Will we hold everybody accountable? Absolutely. You know, from top to bottom. Are we going to make this into a meritocracy? Absolutely. Are people still going to be critical? Sure. That's their right. That's what makes sport great. That's one of the reasons I kind of enjoy Twitter, you know, even when people are kind of a little nasty. So I know you said it's not a popularity contest, but obviously the Panthers, you know, took a bit of a hit this weekend in terms of popularity.

How does that recover? You think it's as simple as winning? Yeah, it's just winning. It's just winning. I mean, this is, you know, like we talked before about Virtue and Flash Boys and all that kind of stuff. And like, you know, I tell people this in May of 2014, when Flash Boys came out, there were people legitimately on Twitter and contacting me that thought I should go to jail, which I was like kind of startled by, right? Because I'm the CEO of a company that's engaged in a criminal enterprise, allegedly. Now, scroll forward, you know, two years later, and we announced a deal with JP Morgan, and they're going to be, you know, sending a lot of their risk through Virtu in the U.S. Treasury market.

So, you know what, you know, the pendulum shifts and, you know, changes, excuse me, and the world changes and people like, you know, take a deep breath and realize the world's not going to end. And at the end of the day, we're going to do what we think is right and we're going to hold people accountable and hold ourselves accountable and perform. And if we don't perform, then people won't come. If we do perform, then people are going to come. That's really ultimately, you know, the be all end all. People don't, you know, aren't coming to the games because of Doug Sifu or Vinny Viola. I mean, frankly, we're completely irrelevant. They're coming because Alexander Barkov's a great player

and Aaron Eckblad was Rookie of the Year and Johnny Huberdeau's going to be healthy and he's going to play well and they want to meet Luongo and Jager and Malgan and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. That's really all that matters, guys. Dougie, we just want to say thank you so much for taking the time that you have to be on the show

and to, you know, to discuss this with a bunch of Canadians who just tweeted you. You know, it really has been, you know, it's been really interesting to hear your side of things because owners, there's a mystery around most owners. We don't get to talk to them much. Yeah, we're fans of the Leafs, and the first half of the show was, what the hell's going on? Yeah. Because we know literally nothing. Yeah, you know, they're an airtight team.

So we appreciate the fact that you've come on, you've answered every question, and we hope that— No, you guys are great. And, Steve, I actually watched your video when I saw it. I said, you know what? This guy's got a clue, so I'm going to listen. So it was all because of your great video, all right? Well, thank you. You're the first to ever say that.

I appreciate that. Your mother thinks you have a clue, too. That's true. Okay, so there's two. She says he's handsome. My dad, I don't know. We need to make that into a show. Your mother thinks you have a clue.

Your mother. Dougie, thank you so much. Doug Sifu. All right, fellas. Minority owner of both Virtue Financial And the Florida Panthers We'll talk soon, thank you Thank you guys

Well Since we're still here Yeah, since we're still here Is he on the phone? He's off the phone No, I'm kidding That was interesting It was interesting

Sorry, our camera conked out If you're still watching on YouTube Jesse's not here, we don't have the right camera equipment He left an extra battery but I thought it fit with my camera and it doesn't, I'm sorry so unfortunately you can't watch us talk to someone on the phone

yeah, because that is visually scintillating oh nuts I do want to talk about this interview quickly because there's going to be a lot of mixed reaction I'm glad you asked the questions that you did because I think it was important that we

get those out, that we talk about those I'm sure they're tired of answering them but at the same time it's one of those things that Well, it's the first time they've been answered. Yeah. The whole reason, so this all starts a couple days ago, I tweet at Doug Sifu. Yeah. After I see his thing with Doug McClain, because I didn't know who Doug Sifu was.

Right. And everyone's going, what the hell are the Panthers thinking? And I'm like, well, why don't I ask the Panthers? And so I did, and he was very enthusiastic to join. We had to kind of finagle schedules, and everything worked out perfectly. Well, not totally perfectly because Jesse's not here, but Chris Johnson was here. It was pretty cool. But one thing in DMing with him and with a few other people, and this is maybe why I asked some of the questions that I did

and why maybe I prepared for this a little more than I usually do, is like he kind of said at the end there, he watched my video and I seemed like someone who had a clue. and I was pretty happy with that video but I wasn't 100% comfortable with how comfortable he was with the video. You know what I mean? Maybe I was a little too easy

on them or maybe I was maybe I came across as pro Panthers I don't know so I felt like I had to ask like wait a sec I screamed at Daryl Cates for doing something along the lines of what this guy did what the hell does Dale Tallon do for that team? Right, right. You know Tom Rowe

you know kind of through ownership under the bus that Gerard Gallant was allegedly thrown off of. You know, it's, I don't know, you stepped up to bat, though. I think you're far too, you would be more sensitive to coming across, I think, as pro-Panther than I think most people would have thought. It's something that didn't cross my mind, for sure. Well, it's all skewed, because if you're not anti-Panther, you're therefore pro-Panther. Everyone has been anti-Panther.

Which is also, by the way, an incorrect way to look at anything. You don't have to be pro or against something. You can just be like, I'm watching. It'd be interesting to get Doug McClain on because he's had some really good insight on this stuff. And I'd love to know his side. But I watched a few things. There was one where he's like, I'm interested in evaluating the Panthers management group going forward. And I'm like, Doug, do you know what that sounds like?

you're looking forward to skewering them at every opportunity they give you right and I think and I don't think that's right but it's also not right to be like well here's their side yeah well here's the thing I mean I don't think their side was really accurately portrayed in any sense I don't think we got

analytics analytics analytics it became an analytics versus non analytics battle again and you know I think that A that was unfair B it seemed that everybody was He's like, how could you do Gerard Gallant wrong? How could you do this?

How could you do this? How could you do this? I thought it was great he apologized. Well, yeah, of course. But did Mr. Rowe not do the same thing? And did Gerard Gallant not come out and say... It wasn't his apology to make. Okay.

I don't think. I don't think it was Tom Rowe's apology to make. Fair. And he seemed to... Some people were talking to me because I got everybody's attention by saying Doug Sifu was coming on. And some people were telling me, oh, yeah, Tom Rowe really threw, you know, ownership under the bus. Do you really think that's what happened?

Surely, heading into an interview with Elliott Friedman, it was discussed. Like, what was going to be said was discussed. Yeah. I don't think that was Tom Rowe's decision to make. I think he kind of sort of hates this. I don't know. What do you? Yeah, hard to know.

Really thinks. I thought Doug was, man, there was a lot to digest there. Pretty candid. I can't wait to listen to that. Yeah, like just to hear it back. I can't listen to it only once. By the way, Chris Johnson had to take off. Yeah, midway.

Did we mention that? He had to go to Leafs practice. He had to go to Leafs practice to find out nothing. Yeah. I know it's, this whole thing is very, very interesting. And what I enjoyed about talking to Doug there was that he is honest, or at least comes across that way. He's got to protect his answers a little bit, as we all do. He didn't try to prop up his hockey expertise?

No. I know nothing. And it wasn't your typical corporate answer, right? It wasn't your typical, I don't want to get fined, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. He just said what he thinks, and I at least appreciated that. So anyway, hopefully this team just kind of puts it behind it and keeps going. Because I pretty much guarantee if this team starts winning, a month from now we're going to forget this happened. Nah

You know what Whether they start Winning or losing Whatever team Gerard Gallant Ends up with next Oh that'll be fun It'll be the number one story

Heading into The first game Between that team And this Who had a better First 58 game Who was better Yeah

Anyway Hey is there anything else You want to cover Or do we just wrap it up Because I don't have We're not going to do The press conference today Jesse

Well there's a bit of A longer gap Between the show And the next Thursday is You and Jesse That's right Because you're heading out

I'm going to Tampa And I will be at the Canucks Tampa Bay game So if anybody People have been tweeting me All weekend Asking Yes I will be there

With my parents And it is Star Wars night It just happens to be Star Wars night That's perfect for you It's perfect So I'm going to be I'm going to have my

Star Wars shirt on And I'll be ready to go So if you I want to see you If you're there Come say hi I'll tweet out What section I'm in

And at the first intermission I'll do a little Love to meet everybody and you know because we have it's shocking how many Tampa Bay fans we have listening to the show

considering how much time we dedicate to the Leafs so appreciate that and absolutely let's hang out I would love to meet you give you a big hug kisses

I'll kiss you I'll kiss you like Zach Hyman did to Austin Matthews I would kiss them both I would kiss them at the same time I don't think Doug heard my Zach Hyman thing by the way

no I don't think he did I thought it was pretty funny I hate having guests on when one of you or Jesse aren't here We just had two without Jesse here. We got to get a certain somebody on who wrote a thing. Ken Reed.

Okay, you'll just say it then. Would you mind if we had him on? You're asking me live? Yeah, of course. Have him on. I love Ken. I would just be upset because I'd miss out on Ken. I know, but like, ah, it's stupid because...

He's got a new book out about guys that played one game in the NHL. How can you not have him on? It's a great book. Yeah, he's such a... There's a hockey guy. There's an old school hockey. Absolutely. But I hate having guests on when Jesse or you aren't here.

But that's when you should have a guest on. Yeah, yes and no. Yes and no. I think sometimes I think with this show, sometimes it's good to it's just good to have the two because it totally it good because it shows how great the three are. Does that make sense? Like, it's not that, you know, because they're all because if it's just you and I. When it's just Jesse and Steve, you really miss Adam.

Well, no, no, no, but if any of us were missing, right? And the only, I mean, we used to do that, I definitely think that I agree with that, but it's one of those things, it's like, sometimes it's like, I do want to hear just the, as I said to you in London, and I said this, and I'm telling you this, Steve, you were a part of this conversation, but if you were listening while I was in London, you know, all the P.K. Subban stuff happened, I liked hearing just you and Jesse when I was listening on the train to Manchester. when it was

I liked listening to I think it was you Chris and Dave Alter yeah on like the one show that I missed ever or something like that one or two

yeah you weren't it's your show you weren't on it and I wasn't on it I couldn't go it's funny I don't know

anyway it'll be it'll be a great episode if Ken gets to come on awesome if I miss out on Ken I'll be sad but

we can always have Ken back of course and I'll give you all something to look forward to screw it I'll say it Oh, and I'll put them on the spot by saying it's so good. I was at the Sportsnet holiday party the other day.

Got to talk to a lot of people. One person in particular that I pointed at, you know when you're in a loud party and you just kind of point. And you're like, you, you. And like do the wave. Yeah, hey, who's this guy? Well, I point at this guy and he flags me down. And he doesn't say hi. He doesn't say anything.

He just goes, hey, hey, leans in close to my ear and he just goes, let's do this. And that guy was Sid Sixero So I'm thinking Tim and Sid SDP mashup We're going to do a show with them together Do you think they'll let us use their studio? Because ours is less attractive

That was my idea! I want to do that! Why not? I mean the Steve Dangle Podcast studio is representative Of our very independent show But just to make it ours Every ten minutes or so we have to get up and turn the camera on and off I like that idea I like that idea

Yeah So Tim and Sid SDP mashup I don't know when It's gonna happen But it's gonna happen Ken Reed

And I think we have A few others Coming up Well I don't know Maybe we're just Gonna have every owner From the league

And maybe a hockey night In cinema in January Maybe Maybe Are you Did you just Did you just Throw that out there

I said maybe It's not confirmed So I said maybe Is what confirmed Nothing. What? I didn't say anything at all. So I'm going to get out of here and get on a plane to Florida.

Is that today? No, it's tomorrow. I'm getting out of here. And I will see you guys down there if you're down there. And if you're not, well, I'll enjoy the beach where you will not be, unfortunately. Cool. I'm going to go to Oshawa where there was snow on the ground this morning. Was it really?

Yeah, exactly. That's how long my commute is. There's snow where I start my commute, but there isn't where I end. You're basically like... I'm changing climates. You're an entire European country away from you. Oh, I know. I am like several Vatican's away from you.

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