The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Devastating Paradox of Hoax

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

In this episode, we are covering Hoax, the closing track from 2020’s folklore. Uncle Jerry starts out a bit iffy on his feelings about the poem, but talking through it with Angela helps him find extra meaning.*Links with an asterisk are affiliate links, which allow us to make a small commission on your purchase at no cost to you. Thanks so much for your support!Works Cited:AnaphoraEllipsisOxymoronPolysemyParallelismParadoxFatalismFaithless Love – Linda Ronstadti sing of Olaf glad and big – e.e. cummingsTo a Mouse – Robert Burns*Of Mice and Men – John SteinbeckTo a Louse – Robert BurnsJonah 3 – Jonah Goes to NinevehSynecdocheMetanarrativeThe Lord’s PrayerThe Swiftie and The Scholar Grading MatrixFollow Us:Patreon⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠Threads⁠Angela’s Instagram⁠Uncle Jerry’s InstagramAngela’s YouTube Channel

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Call or text 211 or visit ab.211.ca. BetMGem operates pursuant to an operating agreement with the Alberta iGaming Corporation. Standard message and data rates may apply. Welcome to the Swifty and the Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDow, The Swifty. And I am Dr. Jerry Coates, the scholar. How you doing, Uncle Jerry? I am very happy today.

How about yourself? Me too. You just got back from visiting Taylorland. I did. I did a little like Swifty Pilgrimage. I saw the pictures. Was it fun? It was.

I went to Centennial Park and took pictures with the bench. that Nashville is put there for Taylor to read on, which is a reference that you'll get in a couple of weeks. And I went to the country music Hall of Fame. That's fun. And there's like a Taylor Swift Education Center there

and there were a couple things from Showgirl. Is there really? Yeah, she like donated to have, like, there's like classrooms in there and stuff. And then I saw the guitar, the Sparkly Guitar from the Fearless Tour. And most importantly, I saw the guitar that she plays all too well on from the Ares tour and I saw it from across the room and I said I like hit Chase and I was like

I know what that is and it was very fun but yeah it was good lots of good food in Nashville did chase have fun he did okay I did a I read a paper at Vanderbilt but it's been several years and actually I think it was about 17 years ago oh and so It would have been within the range of Taylor Swift, but... The beginning. Yeah, and we did go to the museum, but there were no Taylor Swift thing.

That's a newer. That's a newer. Newer additions to the country music Hall of Fame. She did. It was announced this week that she was inducted in her first year of eligibility into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. So earlier this year, she went into, like, the Songwriters Hall of Fame, and now she's in the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame.

Did you go down that main drag and then? the evening where everybody's playing. Yeah, yeah. That's a fun scene. Yeah, we also, like, drove down Music Row in the day to, like, see all the different, like, little record labels and stuff. So that was fun. But, yeah, happy to be back.

Happy to continue to be in our folklore era. We made the executive decision to just finish folklore because we only have, like, six songs left. Gonna do it. And this is the closest we've gotten to one full album, so we're just going to do it. Right. And then we will have an episode, everyone's asking, we will have an episode once we're done, like after the last song where we pull it all together and hear Uncle Jerry's thoughts on the album as a whole. That'll be fun. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. I got the feeling you've been feeding me the ones you thought I would like from folklore.

And then I got these two today. Yeah, I might have been doing that. I think there's still a couple left that I think you'll like. Okay. That I think you'll really like. But yeah. I mean, this one was good. Okay. This song, so this is hoax that we're doing today.

This is the album closer, although the Lakes is a bonus track, and we've done that one. So that comes after this one. That's the one you tricked me with. Yes. This song is written by Taylor and Aaron Dessner, produced by Aaron Dessner. and when the album first came out, this was like my favorite song. And those always change.

Like when you, the first go around, you have like, I feel like you always have a different favorite song than like what sticks like a month later. But I just love there. There's just one line. Maybe I might try to see if you can figure out which of those lines it is.

One line that I just loved and just like stuck with me. And yeah, we will also be listening to her talk about her and Aaron talk about this song at the end and like how it came together and how it's about not just one thing but many things and yeah.

Okay. So that's all I got. You know, it doesn't really matter what they think it's about. No, it's what you think it's about. Well, we think it's about. Once the author hands it off to the world, the world gets to reshape the meaning. Yes.

So the author may think the author knows what it's about. Sorry, I should have said, inspired by different events, not just like one thing. Yeah, I mean, 200 years from now, she'll be gone and people will still be reading this stuff and then they will remake the meaning again and again.

So don't get upset about the adaptation of the Odyssey. Have you seen The Odyssey yet? Not yet? No, I'm still waiting for the 70mm screen to open up. I know. Why are they? Like, it's so crazy. It has been crazy, yeah.

But I'm anxious to see it, yeah. And it is a funny thing. I think I've told the story about I was writing a paper about a poem by Wallace Stevens, American poet, my favorite American poet. And, you know, and I read this article. I thought that the work was based on a set of music variations. And I read an article, and when she says, yes, it's based on a set of music variations. And then I read another article where the, about 15 years later, and the person asked him and he said, no, that's not it at all.

Yeah. Meaning changes over time. Or people just don't even know what they're. Well, they just don't remember. Sometimes things just come out. Yeah. Yeah. But hoax. Yes. Hoax. Okay. Can you say anaphora? Okay. Yes. Yes. Repetition, especially basic repetition of pronouns at the beginning of lines. an Afra and you have my, my, my, my, my, my, and, you know, in the first verse. And you just have to say, oh, my, my, my. Oh, my, my, my, Taylor actually has a song from her first album called Mary's song, but then in parentheses it's, oh, my, my, my.

Wow, Mary's song? Uh-huh. Really? Uh-huh. Which Mary? Not like the mother of Jesus. That's what I was wondering, is it the Virgin? I don't think so.

No, okay. And also before we do verse one, we ought to look at the rhymes game. Yes. Because it's very interesting. One gun son, A, A, A, and then down, B, and then knife, knife fight. So B, B, and then ground, I'm sorry, CCC, and then ground B. So it's A, A, A, A, A, B, C, C, C, C, C, B. Yeah, which is kind of fun.

And it's, you know, it's very consistent in this first verse. And then you get to line one. Yes. My only one. My only one. I know. And I thought, oh, is this another romantic poem? And it is.

Yeah, it's my only one. Oh, really? That's hyperbole, right? Because we know there's not just one person in the world who could be your match. Dewey. Don't call me Dewey. Oh, goodness. It's an argument, right?

I mean, that's, yeah, is there just one person in the world for you? Yeah, that's very, that's like too existential for my brain. It really is. Yeah, are you going to go online and you start, you know, swiping left or swiping right? Really, this guy, that guy, that girl, this girl, you know, is there just one? It's still a hyperbole. It is, it is. I'm going to claim.

I'm not actually arguing with you. I just... Well, and I mean, you guys tell me if you think there's just one, you know, I would be interested to hear. Yeah, actually. Yeah. Lastly, my wife and I have an ongoing argument about the nature of causality in the universe. Yeah, everything happens for a reason. Yeah, and, you know, and I say...

And no, you don't agree with that. No, it's happenstance. But I understand why and how people believe it happens for a reason. So, you know, we can talk. I don't know if we'll decide anything. I don't think so. The first line is also an ellipsis, right? It is fragmental.

It feels unfinished, my only one what, you know, and you go to the second line, my smoking gun, and you think, well, wait, wait, you know, she doesn't tell us, you know, who the one is, what the one is, the one what, which is kind of fun, because she leaves a reader going, one what, one who?

Mm-hmm. Right. It's a possessive pronoun, my, which establishes the intimacy of the poem. Okay. So, my, my, my, my, you know, very, very intimate.

It's something that she feels deeply in possession of. So it begins with attachment, kind of important to know. Okay. And then you look at the diction, and you see the use of the word only, which indicates exclusivity.

Okay, yeah. Right. You know, back to that idea that there's only one. My smoking gun, and the poem immediately takes a turn. Because you're thinking, oh, it's going to be a love poem, but then my smoking gun. Yeah, that doesn't sound as great. Yeah, that's a strange metaphor, right? Violent imagery.

Smoking gun is kind of an unusual metaphor to apply to a beloved. It's also a cliche. statement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Smoking gun would indicate a crime scene. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research.

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Please play responsibly. Subject to eligibility requirements. If gambling is affecting your mental health or well-being, 21-1, Alberta is here to help. Call or text 21-1 or visit ab.21.com. That MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with the Alberta Eye Gaming Corporation. Standard message and data rates may apply. So now you immediately have to ask, oh, is there a crime scene going on in this poem?

And metaphorically, maybe it is. It could also be synecatee, right, where the gun represents something that's greater than the acts of violence later. It implies that there are acts of violence that are not limited merely to the gun. And then my eclipsed sun. Okay, so she starts with my only one, and then she starts rolling through the metaphors, right? So a sun would be a symbol of warmth, life, love, happiness. Right.

Right, but this is an eclipse sun, maybe even since we have religious imagery in this pool, divine presence. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, but here the sun is eclipsed, just like it was in Spain. Literally yesterday when we're recording this, there was an eclipse. I know. Cosmic imagery and light and dark imagery.

You know, light generally tends to be a positive image. Darkness tends to be a negative image. So the fact that it's eclipsed, we have a negative imagery to go along with smoking gun. Yeah, things aren't going so hot. No, and we're only like nine words in. I should say that the album before this called Lover, has a song, I think also it's the last track of lover called Daylight. And that's like all about, you know, like you've got to step into the daylight and let it go.

So it's like she found this warm sun. You know, she found the daylight. And then now it's eclipse. Well, and that's why I wondered if this was also an oxymoron, you know, because you usually do think of the sun as warm and that sort of thing. But here it could be oxymoronic. I just love saying moronic where the sun is eclipsed. Yeah.

This has broken me down. So it's idiomatic, an idiom to be broken down. It's also a little metaphoric, like is she broken down like a car, a mixer? You know, how can a human being be broken down? And how does the sun and the gun and the one play with that brokenness? Yeah. Right. And so she leaves us with lots of questions.

She's using this extreme economy and language. Yeah. And it's through that economy of language she implies all these questions. So she kind of hooks the reader. Agreed. Yeah, because like what are we even talking about? Right. Absolutely.

Yeah. Because all of these things like don't really, they don't feel like they belong in the same stanza. Yeah. If this were that Sesame Street, one of these things do not belong, does not belong. Yeah, I would be going wait. Yeah. None of them belong. And Eclipse Sun could be fun.

I mean, it's interesting cosmic event. Smoking gun. Someone's been injured, like I said, a crime scene. And then you go to the second half of the verse, my twisted knife, which resonates with smoking gun, reinforces the idea of violence. So we had this metaphor. expanding and you begin to realize, oh, it's the beloved is like a knife, you know, or the relationship is like a knife. So it's more violent imagery to resonate with smoking gun. It's, I think also a double entendre, palisimine, a pun. Okay. Because the word twisted,

could be that cliche twisted to twist the knife to do double injury, but also twisted can mean deranged. Oh, right, right, right. Right. So is she saying that the beloved somehow has created some kind of a violent act that endure additional injury by twisting the knife? Or is she saying that the beloved is twisted? Interesting.

I like that. That he's deranged for having done whatever the knife implies. Okay, okay. So we haven't found out yet. Yes, yeah. My sleepless night. That's like kind of blowing my mind with like a line further down. Oh yeah.

The twist. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My sleepless night. Okay, so now we go with night, right? The night represents the emotional condition. It goes along. It resonates back up with eclipse sun.

So you can see what she's doing as a night. writer. I mean, she matches twisted knife with smoking gun. She matches night with Eclipse sun. Yeah, this is just like she did in Epiphany, where verse one and verse two were like

completely parallel. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So she's using parallelism. Okay. So these lines resonate with one another. And then she goes with my winless fight. Again, violent imagery. It's also paradoxical.

You know, a fight shouldn't necessarily be winless, you know, but this one apparently is. It's something she cannot win. So why even engage in it? That brings you to a little bit of fatalism. Yeah. Right? Because she's engaging in this winless fight. So why would she do that to herself?

It's fatalistic. Yeah. And then you go back and resonate all of that with the smoking gun on the twisted knife. You see all the violent imagery and you think, boy, something's something bad. happening here. It also, you know, it gives you this metaphorical idea that the relationship is

kind of like a battlefield. We've seen this frequently in her writing where she, you know, compares war and love and or relationships in battlefields. Yeah. And then... Often. Often. We get to the last line.

This has frozen my ground. All right. Well, that kind of matches up with the has broken me down. Right. So now she's both broken. So she's, you know, she herself has been incapacitated. And she's frozen.

She's unable to move. She has this emotional trauma that has immobilized her. Yeah. So that's a metaphor. Yeah. It's also nature imagery. It also contrasts with the kind of psychological symbolism that she just can't move forward. Yeah, that's what I would think, like, it's like frozen.

and you can't, you're stuck right where you are. Right. Yeah. That line also always works well to me with in the lakes, when she says a red rose grew up out of ice frozen ground. Wow, that's nice, yeah. I just always think of those because I'm picturing, they're both like frozen ground,

but I'm like, what does this mean? So she has been frozen, but then a red rose, by the end of this album, like, can grow up out of that frozen ground. I don't know. I haven't put that together yet enough, but... Well, I also like the idea that she's frozen in the ground because it's also a very romantic ideal. Okay, which works with the lakes.

That's right. It works with the lakes. Yeah, I think I've mentioned, you know, at the end of Frankenstein, the fact that Frankenstein is, you know, leaping, the monster is leaping across the ice flows. You know, romantic painters frequently paint ice ice. icebergs as this imagery of hell. Okay.

Yeah, it's interesting that they frequently resonate, you know, an iceberg with hellscapes. Yeah, that's kind of the opposite of what I would think. Conventionally, you would think so. But it's a place where nothing can grow. Yeah, nothing can thrive in the frozen. Exactly. Yeah.

So, you know, I don't know. I love the last line of the verse. This has frozen my ground. So she's frozen, but also the water. world around her is frozen. It's infertile. She's incapable of moving forward. It's incapable of production of... And that comes back later on too. It does. Oh my goodness. I know. Well, I, you know, and I'm just going to go ahead and lift the veil here and say, although this wasn't my favorite poem, it's really well written. Right, right. Right. And so, I mean, I mean, come on, even when she hits on a topic

that doesn't exactly, you know, hit me. Nevertheless, I know it probably does a lot of people, and I can admire it for being well written. Yeah. This first verse is an intentionally crafted work of poetry. Yeah. It's just not hitting you right in the heart. No, it doesn't.

And that's okay. Yeah, they can't all. That's right. I'll still visit our museum. Okay, so having left us with this, understanding that she has been, that violence has been perpetrated upon her, that she has been left broken and frozen, she moved to the chorus. Stood on the cliffside screaming, give me a reason.

Okay, so this is one of the central thematic ideas of the poem. Yeah. Right. So she's had violence perpetrated on her. She's broken. She's frozen. And what she wants to know is why. Yeah.

which is a very earthling thing to ask. We also have really nice setting symbolism, right? Cliffside is a liminal space. It's also a space between safety and destruction. Right. Right. She's on this precipice whereby she might fall to death or to a kind of emotional suicide.

Yeah, I was going to say, or jump to death. Right, or jump. Right. It's vertical imagery. Also notice that if you're at a. cliff, you are positioned at an extreme point. Okay. So you're at a height, so you're at a point of extremity in your own emotional life.

So she's facing an existential crisis. Relatable. Should I go or should I stay now? Should I stay or should I go now? It's also direct speech. It's interesting. It's one of the only times in the poem where she actually. talks to us.

Yeah. Right? She wants to scream out. You know, notice the use of the imperative verb. Give me a reason. She's not saying, I wish I had a reason. Yeah. Like, tell me the reason right now.

Right. Yeah. She's saying this is a requirement. It's imperative. Give me a reason. And it's ambiguous. And, you know, we all know she loves ambiguity. Modern poets do, you know, the reason for what?

Is she looking for a reason to stay? Is she looking for a reason to jump? Is she looking for a reason to believe in the other person? Is she looking for a reason to forgive? Is she looking for a reason for the suffering? Is she looking for a reason to endure the suffering? Which we also talked about in epiphany. We did.

Yeah. I mean, search for meaning or whatever. Where's the meaning in this situation? And yeah, I think this is an epiphany, I think you can kind of put back to back. That's interesting, yeah. Yeah. So we can talk about that when we talk about folklore in its whole. Yes.

You know, and maybe she's looking for a reason as to why they failed as a couple. You know, maybe she's looking just for not for him to explain or her necessarily to explain, but for them to examine the past. Yeah, and like the universe to be like, what was the purpose of all of this? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Why was I put in this place? Mm-hmm.

Or he was put in this place and how did it not come to fruition? Yeah. How is it that all the ground is frozen? So I love this line. Me too. Yeah, it's really, this isn't the line, is it? No. Okay.

Your faithless loves, the only hoax I believe in. Okay, she introduces the title. Yes. There's also a song by Linda Ronstadt, Faithless Love. Yeah. You know, so I don't know, it's from the early 70s. Was not written by her. I don't know who wrote it.

Okay. Yeah. I just remember it on one of her early albums I still am a big fan I'm sorry she has physical problems and can't sing any longer but wonderful career there have been other faithless love

interpretations you know faithless love oh faithless love so there are lots of different songs with that title essentially you know the line says your false love is the only fraud, I believe in.

Yeah. Like, I know it's not real, but I'm still choosing to believe. It's crazy, right? It's paradoxical. Yeah. So, it's a hoax, but she believes it. So it's hoax, matching those two words back to back, hoax, I believe,

is oxymoronic phrasing. Absolutely, yeah. Right? So, yeah, she's saying, I've, I'm really sad, but I'm not stupid. I'm not ignorant of this particular situation. I'm fully aware of the duplicity of my emotional self. Yeah. You know, and I did like this.

Okay. Like I said, maybe not as much when I began to value the whole album, like a song like Epiphany, a poem like Epiphany. Yeah. But I did like this conflicted self. Yeah, I like that concept of like, you know, like I'm sticking around in this, whatever we're talking about.

Like, whether we're talking about a friendship or relationship or like a job you know you need to leave or something, like any kind of relationship or situation, like in the moment, you do feel like, well, I have no choice. You know, this is what it is for me. And if this is as good as it going to get, then like I'm just going to. I just, I live inside that hoax. Yeah.

Exactly. That just feels so relatable to me to be like, oh, yeah, like, I see that this isn't good, but like I also don't believe that there's anything better. Right. Yeah. Well, and it's, it's not necessarily self-destructive, but it's just self, I mean, it's accepting of your own ignorance. Yeah. And it's like, well, and because I'm feeling this way, because I've been frozen, because I've been broken down. Like, you know, like, I just, I have no choice but to just like stay in this. Well, and it's like I know people who live in that place. And I have lived there myself from time to time. Now, let's go back to something you said earlier. Okay. When you said something about leaving a job.

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I left my job. Okay, so you're not... This is your job now. Yeah, I was very frozen. My ground was for Rosen. Okay, well, I hope I don't break you. I'll be careful. Plus, your dad scares me.

Right, right, right. Between my dad and Chase. That's right between your dad and Chase. But yeah, it's, you know, I hesitate to use the word fun. Right, but it is fun. It is a cool line. Yes. Yeah.

Don't want no other shade of blue but you. That's the line, right? It certainly is. Color symbolism. bright blue is sadness, color imagery. It's paradoxical. Again, she prefers, she prefers his hurt to any other shade. You know?

What, you don't like bright orange? Yeah, yeah. It's like this shade of blue is this, this, this feel. I mean, just exactly what we're saying. Like, even though it's sad and it feels kind of bad, like, at least I have this person, you know? Or like, at least I have, you know, this situation that, like, you know, if we're talking about a job and you know it's a job you need to leave because of whatever,

like at least I have a paycheck so I'm just going to be stuck here. You know, like, or if it's a person like, yeah, maybe this person makes me sad or maybe that person is always sad and it's kind of wearing us down. But like, at least I have this person, you know? I don't know. It just like...

Yeah, there's a level of acceptance, you know. I'm sorry, I'm reminded of a line from I sing of Olaf Glad and Big by E. Cummings. And it includes a word that Taylor Swift uses, so I hope it's appropriate. He says, there is some shit I will not eat. I mean, I think that hopefully you reach a point. Yeah, that's where you want to get to. That's right.

This is before that. This is before the moment. Yes, you are frozen and you're just willing to eat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, so by the way, we shouldn't miss the fact that it also has internal rhyme. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. You know, that's the cool thing about her is she never forgets the poetry. Yeah. I mean, you see how the end rhyme, you and then the next line do, and then don't want other shade of blue, you. That's just sweet. And it is always like, obviously, I like the, I love the image of don't want no other shade of blue but you. But also I'm realizing that all of the lines that I do say are my favorite have, you know, a fun image, fun image. But they also have good rhyme and good poetics.

Yeah, they do. And I didn't know that until we started doing this. Oh, that's all right. Yeah. Well, I taught you something. Yeah. Okay, good. I'm done.

No, you know, I am serious. I would agree with you completely. The lines that I tend to really hold on to are lines. that not only create really nice thematic ideas, but they also are pretty. Yeah, exactly. She exercised assonance or alliteration or internal rhyme or all of them at once.

Right, sometimes, yeah. Yeah, and they just come out as nice poetry. Yeah. And so she ends the chorus with no other sadness in the world would do. And so she's engaging in repetition with no other, right? Again, the exclusivity of the exclusivity of it, at least it's mine, you know.

And so she's holding on to that possession. You remember our poem begins with my, my own. Yeah, and my only one. That's right. So it's like mine and my only goes with like that no other sadness. And it is, you know, I think she's exploring psychologically. Maybe I am liking this poem a lot more. This happened to me with another poem, didn't it?

Yes, it did. I didn't say I didn't like it. It's just, I didn't. I said it wasn't like my favorite. Yeah. But yeah, it's maybe going up a little. Yeah, I think that she's exploring what we do psychologically to ourselves. Right.

You know, at least I have this. Exactly. And the possession of the thing, whatever that is. But the possession of the thing is somehow enough to make us cling to it. Yeah. Yeah. Even when we know maybe it's self-destructive behavior or the thing is destructive. or it's freezing us, we hold on to it.

And that's an interesting psychological exploration. Yeah. Even when we know something is a hoax. Like we know it's not real. We know it's not good. Like... It's mine. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Yeah. At least it's mine. Yeah. That's so interesting. I know.

You know, I do know one of our listeners is a psychiatrist or psychologist. Uh-huh. Yeah, we need to know. Yeah. What is that thing? Tell us. Tell us what we're doing here. that makes us cling to a thing just out of sheer possessiveness.

But that's the end of the chorus. And so the chorus ends, I don't know if I could characterize it as sad in tone, but introspective in a negative way. Yeah, it's almost like resigned. Like I'm just, no other sadness will do. Like, I'm just going to stay here because at least, and it's also almost a little bit like, This is a familiar feeling.

This is what I'm used to. This is like the sadness that I know, you know. There's other sadnesses out there that I don't know. And the fear of the unknown is keeping me here. Yeah, I mean, we can go back to your mentioning a job. You know, we cling to a job because we shrug and say, well, at least it pays the bills. Exactly. Yeah.

Do you love what you do? No. No. No. You know, I can, I do have to say that as a teacher. I always loved what I did. And as an administrator, you know, as a dean of liberal arts, I was always very, very proud, pleased, and happy to just provide great teachers with the stuff they needed and get out of their way.

You know, and so I had a lot of joy in my work, but a lot of people do not. Yeah. You know, and so what do we tell them? Do we tell them, quit your job now and find something better? No. Yeah, you got to go find something first. Right. But you're frozen.

Yeah, you're frozen. So that makes that part hard. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, she's really looking at something that I think that we all go through. And it is that universality that I think draws us into her work. It's so funny because I've never been drawn to her music. Like I was never drawn to her songs, but I'm drawn to her poetics.

Yeah. This is also, this is more for them than for you. but as we're talking about all of this and I'm just, and we're talking about like leaving a job or leaving a person, I'm thinking of how much this song is connected to it's time to go from this song is from Evermore

it's an Evermore bonus track and it's kind of about all of that. It's like you've got to, sometimes the bravest thing you can do is just like leave, you know? And that's interesting. No matter the situation, like sometimes you just have to give up. We'll get to that song.

Yeah. I really like that song. There's two ever more bonus tracks, and I think they're both so good. Now, what we don't want is for you to make some giant cataclysmic life decision based on our conversation here. Correct. And then come back to us and say, but the Swifty and the scholar told me I should. Please don't do that. Yeah, stay frozen just a little bit. Until you got something else figured out.

Okay, verse two. This line made me laugh. The very first time I read the poem. Okay. It's the best laid plan. And we've talked about this. Yes. I was ready for you to bring this up.

Because I think, I don't even know what song that other lyric is in. But you told us this story about a mouse. Yes. And it was devastating. We sneak it cow and dim of a beastie. Ah, what the faddle is in there. They need not hang away with brick or bickle and bottle. Yeah, it's, I've got the poem right here.

Okay, because I have thought about this poor little mouse. To a mouse by Robert Burns. We stick it cowering timorous beastie, I what a panics in thy breasty. I needna run away so hasty with bicker and braddle. My way it be lath to reinage hasty with myr and prattle. So I actually didn't understand any of that. Tiny, sleek, cowering, frightened beast.

Oh, what a panics in your breast. You needn't start away so hasty with a noisy scruffling. I would be I would never run and chase you with a murdering intention. Okay. How's that? Thanks.

Helpful. Yeah, and it's a great poem. Later on it has the very famous line in it. He says, the best laid schemes of mice and men ganged afterglay, which means go often astray. Okay. Right?

So Steinbeck was struck by the line, so he uses mice and men. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, and if you know the work, you know, Steinbeck has these two itinerant farm workers who take a job with the intention of earning enough money to buy their own land. Just a small plot of land to grow some things. And one of them wants to have a rabbit hutch. And unfortunately, the best laid plans of mice. and men often go astray. And it does not come to fruition.

One of them has to save the other, and I won't ruin the story. It's a lovely novel, a wonderful play. There's a great movie adaptation, by the way, with Gary Senese as Lenny, really, really good. So pick it up and take a look at it. But in the poem, the farmer is out plowing.

He is turning his field over in the fall to leave it follow and let the earth rest. And as he's plowing, he turns over a mouse's home. Yeah. And so the seeds are scattered that the mouse has saved up for winter. And, you know, the little huts that the mouse is built in the earth has just been torn apart. And he looks at the mouse and he realizes the mouse is still there. He's still alive.

But he realizes the mouse can't rebuild. It's too late in the year. and he will just starve or freeze in the winter. And he says, well, the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray. It's just so upsetting. I know I'm supposed to get more from that than just this poor little mouse. He's just worried about the mouse. But I'm really sad for the little mouse.

The mouse is going to die. The episode we talked about this was the Black Dog and all of those best laid plans was the lyric in that song. Okay, just had to pull that up. But go ahead. Sorry. I don't, we talk about a lot of stuff that does not apply. So, you know, you can tune this out. Quick run and get yourself a cup of coffee.

You know, Robert Burns wrote a companion piece to To a Mouse called Toa Laos. Okay. Okay. A Laos is a single Lice, right? And he's sitting, I think, in church behind this woman. And she's beautiful and she's all done up. And she looked perfect. She looks very aristocratic and proud of herself.

And as he is sitting behind her looking at her perfectly shaped neck and beautifully quaffed hair, he sees this lice. Oh, that just made my whole body like crawling along the collar of her dress. And the idea is that no matter what we do, we all have flaws. That's so interesting. Right. So, yeah, check to a louse out. Oh, my gosh.

To a mouse and two a louse. That's right. It has a little more humor than to, because the louse. Because the lice gets to live. I don't know. Okay. My best laid plant is an allusion to Robert Burns as to a mouse. And what we know is the mouse will perish in the freeze of winter.

That frozen ground. The frozen ground. Yes. Isn't that great? That is great. Okay. So when you use an illusion, bad poets, just stick it in the text, right? Just to say, hey, I'm smart.

I know. this poem by Robert Burns. Yeah. You know, but good poets put it in the text because it has interplay with the work thematically and it interplays with diction and lines like my frozen ground. Yeah, that is pretty genius. Yeah, it is.

I know you don't like when I use that word genius. But it is pretty darn smart. It is, you know, what she's doing is she, showing that she understands a craft of poetry. Yes. Right. It's also a metaphor, right? The relationship equals the plan.

The best laid plan. She had had a plan for this relationship and somehow it turned into a smoking gun and a twisted knife and frozen ground and broken. The speaker here thought that she had control of the relationship, but, you know, like the poor mouse, you know, the universe just shows you again and again that you don't have control.

Yeah, nothing. Nothing isn't, I mean, very few things are in our control. Yeah, I mean, everything might be going well for you one day, and then all of a sudden, bam, and I'm not going to tell you what bam means. It's just, I'm not going to wish any calamitous event on anyone. No, yes. But, yeah, the best laid plans. Your sleight of hand, okay, I love this metaphor.

Slight of hand characterizes him or the relationship or the universe, as a card shark or as a magician. Right. Right. And so magicians are there to trick us. Yeah. It's not real. No.

Card sharks are there to cheat us, right? And so. A hoax, you might say. Just a hoax. Yeah, is that not great? Yeah. So. Two and five Canadians will hear the words you have cancer.

That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, Join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca. I did say I like this poem, but I, yeah. It's also deception imagery, right?

It kind of has, I don't know, it's just, yeah, it's really nice. It contrasts with best laid plan, slide of hand. Yeah, because she's like, I have all of these, I have a plan, I have a vision, I think this is, this is going to go this way because of whatever. Maybe somebody has shown me, you know, a certain side of themselves that I think they're going to carry forward or whatever. And then you realize it was just a slide of hand. It was a trick. It was fake. It was a scam.

It was a hoax. there's a level of ambiguity here because the question it does it does remain embedded in the text so who's tricking who is she tricking herself right because essentially we want to say he's tricking her or the universe is tricking her but is she also participating in tricking herself that's interesting yeah because when we're staying in these situations right then you're participating you're your own magician. Somehow or another, you take a bad situation and you convince yourself that it's okay.

Might not be great, but it's okay. You look at the hand that the card shark dealt you and you say, okay, I've got a pair of threes, but at least I've got one pair. Yeah, yeah. It's not a great hand. Oh, goodness. Yeah, until you trick yourself into upping the ante,

into staying in the game, if I can extend that metaphor. Yeah, and just betting more and more and more. Yeah, you just keep going. Because you look at that pair of threes and you say, at least it's one pair. Interesting. My barren land.

Okay, so this kind of goes with frozen ground. Frozen ground. It's a barren land. It also has some biblical resonance, right? You know, why is the land barren? Because it has divine judgment, you know, passed upon it. Is it spiritual testing? Is it isolation?

We see all that in the Bible. If you read Deuteronomy, right, you get the Israelites in the desert characterizes the barren land. If you read Ezekiel, you have kind of the same thing. The land is laid waste by disbelief. You know, Ezekiel is trying to bring back

the covenant with God. He's saying, no, don't go after Asherah, don't go after, bail, other gods and goddesses. You know, he says, you know, we've walked away from our tradition. We've walked away from the covenant. And that's why the land is barren. Right. So.

Interesting. Yeah. It's also symbolic. The speaker's inner life is infertile. You know, you'd want to think that your own life is blossoming into something better. But it's not. She's frozen. The relationship can't grow.

And the mice. Their houses are being torn to pieces. Just torn to pieces. and you are doomed, doomed to die, I say. I genuinely wish I could tell you how often I think about that. Like, I drive through, like, when I'm going home, down 35, like, further south, like, past Dallas. There's, like, a lot of fields of crops and things. And literally, every time I look at them, I'm like, oh, God, the poor mice.

And I'm like, oh, no, why is that tractor there? They're probably ruining the mice's homes. Like, I get really stressed by it. You just want to say, run, mice, run. Don't build there. Like, that really had an impact on me. And I don't really know why. Okay, so I'm just going to have to admit that's funny that you say that because when I first

read that poem when I was in high school, it did me too. Yeah, like, why is that so sad? It's a mouth. Well, because it's you, right? It's. Right. You know, not just the mouse. Right, of course.

It's any one of us in this happenstantial world. Right, right. Okay, so if the barren land, my barren land has this biblical resonance, so too does I am ash before your fire. Okay, it's obviously a metaphorical, it's fire imagery, but also, you know, you put on ashes when you were in mourning. Right. For example, in Jonah, Book of Jonah, you know, the Jonah goes to the Ninevites. He's pretty disgruntled. He doesn't want them to turn back to God.

And he says, okay, listen, everybody, you're all going to die if you don't turn back to God. And they all go, what? What's it? And they immediately put on sackcloth and cover themselves with ashes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. You know, so essentially, I love the metaphor.

It's, you know, it's one that is frequently used elsewhere in poetry, that one of the fire burns down to nothing. Somehow the heat of it, like the heat of a bad relationship, consumes it to ash until there's nothing left but gray. You know. Yeah. And then we go to the chorus.

Yeah. The chorus is repetition, stood by the hill, cliffside screaming, give me a reason. Dear faithless loves, the only hoax I believe in. And reason and believe in rhyme.

Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes two-word rhymes can be a little, a little goofy. I kind of like this one. Yeah, it works for me. Yeah, I think it does.

You know, don't want no other shade of blue but you. No other sadness in the world would do. So again, you've got these interlocking rhymes. It's repetition. You know, she's underscoring the idea that she is on a precipice. She's on a high point ready to fall off, jump off, or, or, be pushed off by, you know, by the relationship. And even there, she's frozen.

She just wants a reason, shouting out to the universe. And the universe doesn't answer. The bridge, you know, I left a part of me back in New York. Okay, a part of me, that's synecdochie, right? Apart for the whole. She really means a part of her heart, a part of her existence, memory, life. she doesn't really mean she's hacked off of things. Right. Like she, part of her is still there.

Like, she wants to be there, but she's in a different place maybe for this person or whatever. There are times when, again, when I was a young reader and I would see synecchiki like this, I always imagine being realistically described. Like a finger. So, I'm sorry, this was my adolescent imagination. It's just going, well, I'm departing from Dallas now. I'm going to have to leave a part of me here. Just a little bit to remember me by. We have play symbolism.

You know, New York is associated with a previous memory in the context of this poem. But I also know she lived in New York. She references places in New York. A lot, yeah. So, and I'm not sure how long or what relationships she might have had. I'm sure you can tell me. I mean, all of them, you know, like most of them. And, okay, so did she go to London to get away from New York from a bad relationship?

No, no. She, the person that she started dating while she lived in New York is British boy. And so I think she just went with him. It just happened. Yeah, and then they were back and forth. Okay. Between New York and London. Not a bad place to be.

No. Either New York or London. I'll take both. Yeah. Also spatial metaphor, you know, here we've got emotional loss as represented by something left behind. And, I mean, essentially, she's saying some version of me still exists in the past. Yeah. And I think that's another reason when we cling to things that we know are deleterious to our existence.

Yeah. You know, because we remember the past when it was good. Right, exactly. Right. So, oh, we used to be so close. Maybe we can have that again Exactly We can go back there

Right You knew the hero died So what's the movie for Okay so hero She talked about the anti-hero Before we did that poem You know this is a reference to a movie Gee whiz

Have we studied a song That had the movie in it Yeah so long London Yeah Interesting Yeah. You know, the movie's a metaphor for life, the relationship. I mean, she asks the rhetorical question, what's the movie for, what is all this that I've been going through for?

You know, movies have a resolution. Right. Right. Most movies resolve either in sadness or happiness or something. Yeah. But they have a resolution. And she's wondering, where is my resolution? Yeah.

Right. There's another way of asking, give me a reason. It also is kind of like, so on the hero's journey, you know, in stories, like the hero comes out heroic and comes out on top. Right. Or doesn't. Yes, or doesn't. But there's a resolution. But I think, you know, we've talked several times, like, about how I think Taylor always wants there to be a happy ending.

She's always changing people's stories and making them have happy endings like with Shakespeare things. And so maybe she's like, okay, if the hero is going to die at the end of this, why are we even telling this story? Because I only want my stories to have happy endings. So you didn't want the plane titled Romeo and Juliet or dead. Yeah, yeah. She just wants them to be happy and live on forever, you know? Yeah. So I always think about that with this line.

It's like, yeah, she. Just like live? Yeah. No. Is that how it works? No. Okay, so I have to say, you know, this is also a meta-narrative, you know. Okay.

Right. Because she's essentially talking about the movie of their relationship, but she's not in the movie, but she is in the movie. Okay, yeah, yeah. Right. So you've got this kind of, it's essentially acknowledging the narrative of her life from the outside. It's as though she's watching the events of the past from the outside, from a seat in the theater. Yeah. Right.

So, meta-narrative. And you know, I never met a narrative I didn't like. Next line. Yes. You knew. I did not actually plan on shouting that, but. You knew it still hurts underneath my scars. What?

Scars like in Cardigan? Look at you. I know. Where is, wait, what album is Cardigan in? Folklore. I do think a lot of people think that other songs on folklore, including this one, kind of match up to the love triangle of it all. And this bridge has New York. And in Cardigan, she talks about heartbeat on the high line, which is in New York.

And now she's talking about scars. Last time I was in New York, I walked up on the high line. Me too, actually. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, there's some... She drew a scar, stars around her scars. Yeah.

And now I'm bleeding. Still hurts underneath those scars. And it's a metaphor, scars, right? Metaphor for emotional wounds. It's ironic that the scars have healed over, but you know it still hurts, right? If it's a scar, it is already healed. Right. But it still hurts.

and this really gets it at the thematic idea that hurting is not the same thing as forgetting. Right? It's not. You forgive, you forget, but you never let it go. Is that a line from one of her songs? Stop it. That's actually a remix.

Oh, yeah? With Kendrick Lamar singing that part. Oh, okay. Are we going to get there? Maybe. Someday. It's one of my least favorites. And that might be a common

theme, but it's called Bad Blood. And anytime I'm like, we should listen to Taylor if I'm with my mom. She's like, Alexa, play Bad Blood. And I'm like, Mom. I don't want that one. I like anything with blood, Ian. It is now time for me

to mention vampires. Oh, my gosh. I know. Look at us. Oh, my God. Bad Blood. Bad blood is about vampires, guys. That's true. I've never even read it, but I'm sure it is. You know, I love the next line because it resonates with the previous line. I keep using the word resonates, but she's very crafty in the way she writes, right?

From when they pulled me apart. Okay, so violent imagery, obviously, and pulled apart, like tearing, like injury, like pulled stitches. Oh, you mean like. Stitches undone. Yeah, stitches undone, like underneath scars. Yeah, that still hurt. Is that not great? Yeah, I do.

I really like the line. I mean, I just admire the writing. And you got to note the passive voice, they pulled me apart. Okay, so this is not something she has done to herself, right? It's something someone has done to her. And then she directly addresses the other person. You do the password, so I let you in the door.

Oh, she let the wrong one in. Have you ever seen that movie? No. Is that about vampires? It's about vampires. Oh, no. Yes. Yeah, there's a Scandinavian one,

and then there's kind of a bad remake for an American one, but it's creepy. It's about a young girl who attracts a little bit older boy, and she turns out to be a vampire. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's pretty great. That's funny. So, yeah, another great line, you knew the password.

So I let you in. So we've got symbols. Password is a symbol of intimate knowledge, trust. The door is an emotional boundary. Oh, you mean like her heart? So he had the key to her heart. And she literally did let the wrong one in. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer.

That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, joined thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret at Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca. Yeah, I really like this line because it's like, you knew me so well. Like, you knew, you knew what the scars were from.

You knew what they did to me. You knew when they pulled me apart. You know I still haven't let that go. And so I let you know all of that stuff. I let you in and then. Yeah, it just damaged me all over again. I also like it because it has spatial imagery. We talked about spatial imagery before.

Oh, gosh, because it's like in the hallway. Right. So you've got this boundary, this door, and yet she essentially breaks the seal on the boundary and lets him in. You know, again, I really think you could really think you could, write a paper on spatial imagery in the poetry of Taylor Swift. Space is kind of a hot topic.

So, yeah, the beloved's, he's able to hurt her precisely because she trusted him enough to let him in. Yeah, he knows the buttons. You knew you won, you knew you won, so what's the point of keeping score? Okay, you know, again, we're comparing love

to a game. It's, that's a frequent metaphor she uses. You know, the idea that someone won, it's a game, it's competition metaphorically. It's a rhetorical question. What's the point of keeping score? Why do you even bother? You know, it's also ironic because winning should mean the game is over. But here, it just means he inflicts pain over and over and over.

Oh, that's really sad. Yeah, I didn't ever think about, like, the use of one means that it's over. Right. But you're still keeping score. Yeah. Interesting. Like the game, okay, you keep winning, but the game never stops. You know, so essentially, I mean, she's asking if you, you've already destroyed me, why do you keep hurting me?

Right. Why is there any, you won? You knew it. It still hurts underneath my scars. You know, that's kind of a refrain. There's really nice circularity. Yeah. Right?

In the writing. You notice the, an average. for a pattern of using you to start sentences with. So many miles at the beginning and now so many you. So now we're going to you. We've turned it. Right. So we got this kind of emotional underscoring by repetition.

From when they pulled me apart, you know, it's the same, it's like an echo. But what you did was just as dark. Okay, darkness imagery, right? Dark as opposed to light. My eclipse sun. the eclips on, you know, he dwells in darkness like the night. It's actually an echo of the line by Byron. Darling, this was just as hard.

Okay, she uses the vocative. That is the noun of direct address. She says, darling. Okay, so is this, it feels more like tender language than ironic. Does it to you? Yeah, it doesn't ever feel ironic to me. It's like, because, again, she's still in this, you know? Yeah.

And so it does feel like you are my darling, even though it's faithless love and it's a hoax and, you know. Right. And I'm anxious to hear how she sings it, you know, because I think it'll be kind of interesting. Yeah. So it is juxtaposition as well. So we have affection and pain and they seem to coexist in the same point, namely her. Right. And yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. right in here. Yeah. And when they pulled me apart, as when they pulled me apart. So circular structure, remembering the relationship that reopened wounds. And then we get to go out. I don't think she does.

She's trapped. She's frozen. In the outro, my only one. So you notice the circular structure. I've said before, this is something a lot of writers do. It's also kind of repetition. It's sort of tragic. Yeah.

How in the world can this beloved person remain my only one? You remember I did at the beginning take issue with the idea that there's only one person in the world. But somehow people do believe it. Yeah. And if you've got one, if you possess it. You got to hold on. You got to hold on. You can't let it go.

yes, you can't. My kingdom come undone. That is a clever line. I knew you were going to like that one. Yeah. I love it. It is a biblical allusion to Matthew 6

or Luke 11 to the Lord's the Lord's prayer. My kingdom come. Thy will be done. Thy will be done. And so it's like, you know, oh girl, are you comparing him to God?

You know? Are you? Well, there, I mean, there is a song on lover, which came out the year before this, so the same time in her life, called false god. Oh, wow.

And it's like, if our love is a false god, I'm still going to worship it. You know, that's the thing, is that's exactly what this poem is about, isn't it? So, yeah, it is just so paranoia. Yeah. It's got a lovely wordplay. Come and undone.

So come means you want to embrace it, but undone means it's all frazzled. It got great assonance. Another reason why we like lines is because they're poetic. Right. Right. The O sound that rolls through dumb, calm, done. So good. Right.

It is. And, you know, then you don't just throw consonants and vowels together. You know, think about the sound. that an O makes, oh, oh. Yeah, yeah. It's almost a groan. Yeah, it's like a long, like a pained almost. Yeah.

And that's one of the reasons why I love the line, you know, because it does feel like a pained groan, kingdom come undone. You know, she's using antithesis. The kingdom should equal power, but undone equals collapse. Oh, that's fine. Yeah, yeah.

So, and it's the inverted cliche. Right, which she loves. She loves it. I love the line. It really is pretty close to my favorite. Yeah, I thought that would be one of your favorites. Yeah. I do like my broken drum because of the sound of drum to me, it matches the previous lines with this O's growing O.

You know, a drum should provide rhythm and sound, but now she's broken. the drum is broken. Yeah, and like drums like a drum beat, you know, it kind of keeps you marching forward. Right. And if your ground is frozen and your land is barren and you're stuck, you can't move forward.

Your drum is broken. Yeah. So I love that, you know, because broken matches the previous brokeness and like you say, I also think it matches the frozenness. Yeah. So it's symbolic. You know, it's a bro,

it also is her brokenness. heart. Oh, like also a drum, like a heartbeat. Right. It could be a drum. Boom, boom. But if it's a broken drum, then her heart beat the thumb to thumb. Oh, no. Oh, yeah, she's got a broken heart. I never made that connection before. Well, because the next line is, you have beaten my heart. Remember, he won the game, but he still keeps hurting her. He has beaten her heart, so the heart becomes the drum. and the other person, whoever it is, has beaten her in what she characterized as a winless fight. Right.

Yeah. Don't want no other shade of blue but you. It's repetition, you know, but she still chooses the blue despite everything we've seen. Right. So I made a notice, the girl, the knife, the eclipse, the sleepless night, the windless flight, the barren land, the fire, the ash, the scars, the kingdom undone, the broken drum, it's everything is just destruction. And yet she chooses it. The poem moves from romantic devotion to a devotion to sadness itself.

So I asked the question, is this psychological obsession? Is she obsessed with the pain? Is she obsessed with the sadness that all this brokenness is brought about? And does she characterize it as a romantic devotion? Oh, I still love him. Like, I'm devoted to him, which sounds admirable. Yeah, but on the surface maybe. Yeah.

But essentially what she has, a devotion to her own sadness. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. No other sadness in the world would do. She wants him and the sadness he brings. You know, the poem offers no reconciliation, no revenge, no recovery, no, acceptance, no independence. It's just embrace the hurt. I did make a list of major motifs of the poem. Okay. And I started doing this because I think it's helpful for me to go back through the poem and say,

okay, let's reassess all this crap that I've just made, you know, going through line by line by line. So the poem is built on paradox. Okay. Yeah. Right. So I made a list. Beloved is her only one, right? But the beloved is a smoking gun. The beloved is her son, and yet he is a source of darkness. He is faithless, but she chooses to believe it. Interesting, yeah. He has broken her, but she wants him.

And the relationship causes sadness, but she wants no other sadness. Interesting. So essentially contradiction is one of the subjects of the poem. So beyond being a poem about a relationship, It's also a poem about contradiction, our contradictory lives. It has religious imagery. The words faithless, believe, reason as existential questioning, kingdom come, ash as mortality, mourning, repentance, and dark as spiritual darkness, all apply to religious imagery. So the poem asks, what happens when the thing you built your faith on becomes unworthy of faith?

and her choice is to continue to believe. But he's unworthy of her faith. It's got imagery of violence, smoking gun, twisted knife, broken, fight, fire, scars, pulled me apart, beaten my heart. So physical and psychological injury by metaphorical violence is part of the relationship. Interesting. It should not be part of the relationship. It's really never.

Right. It's got lots of nature imagery. So natural imagery included sun, night, ground, barren land, fire, ice, blue, and eclipse. You know, the frozen landscape, the barren landscape, ashes to fire, all really nice nature imagery. And then I really was interested in the pronoun prominence. You know, like we've already pointed out, she says, my, in the first half of the poll, my only one, my spoken gun, eclipse son my twisted knife my sleepless night my winless fight

my best laid plan my barren land my kingdom my broken drum but then she says your right you your sleight of hand your faithless love you knew you won my tend to be hurt your tends to be the pain giver

so my she says my she's hurt every time she says you it's doing the hurting doing the hurting. So that essentially you, the you has thoroughly colonized her world. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know, owns her life or at least her psyche. That's interesting to think about in terms of exile too. Like, because if this is a relationship where everything is bad and they're talking, you're talking about this land and, you know, and then we go into exile, which is like you're exiled from the land. when the relationship is over. That's interesting. It also has a clear poetic structure.

Okay. So I made a list. Verse one is the beloved is simultaneously loved and destructive. And then in the chorus, the speaker acknowledges the contradiction. She says, okay, I know. And then in verse two, she says the relationship is built on deception and destruction, right? Trickery and hurt. In the bridge, the speaker explains why the betrayal hurt so badly.

Okay. The love knew where she was vulnerable and hit her there. And in the outro, despite everything, the speaker returns to devotion. So it begins with love and really kind of ends with that same love. Yeah. It has that circular argument. You are my everything. You destroy me.

You know, I know you deceive me. You know exactly how vulnerable I was. And you're still my everything. upsetting. Well, it is upsetting. I think that's one of the reasons why, that's one of the little creeping reasons why it wasn't, it wasn't really high on my favorite list.

Yeah. I'm not saying it's not a great poem. I think it is a great poem. Yeah. But, you know, for me, it's just, it's almost painful. Yeah, it's like an upsetting message. Yeah. Yeah.

I want to just get with her and say, girl. Yeah. You know, and shake my head, you know, but, but you can't do that either. It's like... It's not helpful. No, it's like telling an addict, stop. Yeah.

Just stop. Yeah. Okay. You ready to hear it or you want to... Yeah, I'm ready. Yes, I have my final statement ready. Okay. But I want to hear how she sings it.

I mean, obviously it's not going to be a shake-it-off upbeat from dance tune. Definitely not. Okay, so we're going to watch lyric video and then we will watch Long Pond with her and Aaron. again, talking about how the song kind of came together. Okay, great. Okay, we'll be right back. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters.

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That pond is long. So I would have sounded so much smarter if I had said this before. Okay. Because I really wondered if this was since, you know, in the poem we never identify the beloved or the speaker by gender. Okay, yeah. Right. They're never he or she. And so I wondered if this was more than.

just a romantic relationship. Okay. Yes, I did do some biographical criticism and think, I wonder if this is about her albums being stolen away or, you know, that stitch is being torn apart, the scar is being torn apart. You know, I wondered if it was about multiple boyfriends. I also wondered in the context of folklore

if it was about the loss of her audience, if the, you know, the, you know, the need for that feedback, the love relationship she has with her audience, I wondered if it was about COVID. Yeah, I mean, that's like, you know, we have on this album Mirror Ball where that, that song is kind of like, who am I if I'm not. If I'm not up there in front of people. Right. And I didn't think about epiphany because she wants a reason here and an epiphany. wants a reason, and in neither place does she recover a reason?

Right. Right. And so, you know, COVID itself is something that leaves you with overwhelming sadness, but it's inexorable, right? It was everywhere. And your self-isolation, the heart that it brought, everyone was inexorable. You couldn't escape that self-isolation in the first months of COVID. And so I wondered, you know, how much this song was a composite of her love relationships,

her experiences professionally, her interaction with crowds, the general may lu of the world under COVID. Right. Yeah. So much, much more than just this guy's hurting me. Right. Yeah. You know. Agreed.

So, yes, I do have my final statement. Okay. In hoax, we have the devastating paradox of loving someone or something whose betrayal has destroyed the very faith that made love possible. The poem reveals how profound attachment can persist even when the beloved has become indistinguishable from the source of one's pain. The final irony of the work is that the speaker doesn't ask to stop loving. The end of the poem is particularly difficult. in as much as the speaker has come to realize the relationship is a hoax,

replete with cruelty and destruction, yet she cannot imagine wanting anything else. All right. Okay. Ready to grade? Shall we? Yeah. Let's do it.

I mean, do you like this song? Do you like... Yeah. It's a hard song to listen to. I love this song. I do not find this one as hard to listen to. as like an epiphany. I don't know.

There's just different, maybe this one, Epiphany is like less about catharsis for me and it's just kind of like a sad song that I've never been in a war. I wasn't fighting the COVID battles. So like that one is sadder to me, I think, because it makes me feel sad for other people, if that makes sense.

And hoax and exile and all these other songs that maybe do have like a sadder, more depressing message, those kind of feel catharsis because I'm like, I have been in that situation and it feels good to me to like listen to this, you know? Yeah. So I love this song and I can listen to it all the time. Okay. Hoax. You know, just hearing you talk about makes me like it more. It's funny because I had Leslie, you know, read one last week.

Uh-huh. I liked it more when she talked about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a community. Sometimes it's good to get outside yourself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, lyrical strength for hoax.

Oh, man, you know, I've said that I'm highly complimentary of it as a poem. Yes. So I would say 98, it's really good, really strong. Narrative and structure, you know. That's one of the things I started looking at was, what does the first verse do? What does the chorus do? What does the second verse do? There's a clear progression and there's this clear circularity.

I like it very much, 98. Okay, production and atmosphere. The song met my expectations. Okay. It's very sad. Yeah, very piano-driven, very just like. Her voice goes down when she sings the word down. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. A little hard to listen to. It's a hard place to be for the narrator, for the speaker in the poem. So I'm going to say 93. Okay. Yeah. Lore and literary references and devices. Oh, and devices.

Yeah. Yeah, I really, I love the biblical allusions. I especially like, I really did. I made a joke about the metanarrative, but I love that meta-narrative. but I love that meta-narrative moment where she steps back and she's a member of the audience watching it in a movie, which really did make me think, is she talking about the audience?

You know, is she talking about loss of audience? Is she talking about loss of her materials? You know, which really expanded the poem for me beyond just a love poem. I have to admit, the first time I read it, I was not impressed because it felt just like a love poem. It was through that meta-narrative moment that I began,

to see other possibilities. So I'm going to go back up to 97. Okay. And emotional impact? You know, it made me profoundly sad. Yeah. So if it were a narrative about a person in that relationship, as we said early on when we were discussing it,

you just want to reach out and I know you can't tell them, oh, stop. Yeah. Because it's a vacuous thing. but it's, you know, you want to just embrace them and somehow fix their world, you know. So it, I guess it did have an emotional impact on me. 96. Okay.

And that is a 96.4. Yeah. I think it's very strong as a poem. Yeah, I do too, yeah. The poetics of it are really pretty to me. And then digging into it like we have today, it's like, oh, yeah, there is, like, a lot there. Yeah, I admire her writing. Yeah.

Okay. All righty? Good. That's all? I am good. Outro us out. Okay, we will be back next week with another folklore song. And make sure you're following along everywhere.

I'm about to ramp up the posting on our socials. So make sure you're following on Instagram and TikTok at Swiftian Scholar Pod. You can follow me at Angela Wyatt McDow. You can follow Uncle Jerry at Drew Uncle Jerry. and see, you know, be ready and waiting for when he posts, you know, once every two weeks, see what you're going to get. And then we will be here next week with another one, and we will see you then. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer.

That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers. in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca.ca.ca. Bye.