The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Dramatic Monologue of Cowboy Like Me

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

In this episode of The Swiftie and The Scholar, Angela asks Uncle Jerry about his favorite music before they dive into cowboy like me from Taylor Swift’s 2020 album evermore. Uncle Jerry teaches us about the dramatic monologue and how Taylor uses this device in the song. They also talk about the use of cliches, indeterminate endings, and they discuss whether they think the couple in the song ends up together or not. Works Cited:Blondie Stardust — Hoagy Carmichael Georgia on my Mind — Hoagy CarmichaelCantigas de Santa MariaCantiga Medieval BabesPomplamoosePokey LaFargeGilbert and SullivanLa BohemeTosca Yeoman of the GuardPirates of Penzance HMS PinaforeIn Medias ResThe Odyssey – HomerDramatic MonologueMy Last Duchess – Robert BrowningPorphyria's Lover – Robert BrowningThe Most Dangerous Game – Richard Connell

Welcome to the Swifty and the Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDowell, the Swifty. And I am Dr. Jerry Coates, the scholar. Yes. Hello. Hello. How we doing? Uh, swell today, thank you. This is the first thing we're recording today. We didn't just change clothes. Oh, no. Okay, so before we get into this song, pulling from Evermore today. But before we get into that, let's get to know you and your outside of your scholarly pursuits. Who are some of your favorite artists? Who are you a Swifty for?

That doesn't make sense. But what kind of music do you like? What makes you like music? Okay, so I do play musical instruments. I play the piano. Yes. I play the bass clarinet. I've played the bass clarinet in the orchestra at the college where I taught or was the Dean of Liberal Arts.

Okay, yeah. I play the euphonium, brass instrument. Okay. And so I like a lot of traditional piano music, you know, classical. things like that that you play when you're growing up and learning how to play a piano. I collect music, sheet music from the 20s, 30s, 40s. So I do like to play all kinds of sheet music, just things I find up randomly in antique stores and that kind of thing. Favorite artists, that's a little hard.

I was a DJ for high school dances and local teen group. Yeah. For about 15 years. So when was that? From about 1988 to 2004. Okay. So you kind of get a window. So I really do like old school rap.

I like Eminem. I like L.L. Cool J. But so I like a lot of those artists. I do like, no, contemporary stuff. I was a huge fan of Blondie when she was, when that group was out. Deborah Harry. I love music of the 30s and 40s, especially pianists, Hogi Carmichael. Totally.

Listen to him all the time. Hogi's greatness. If you don't know Hogi Caramichael, he wrote the song Stardust, which was recorded five times by different artists for a million sellers. Wow. Yeah, the only example of that in music history. And he also wrote the song Georgia, Georgia on my mind. Okay, I love that song.

I do, I'm a medievalist. My PhD in history is in medieval culture, and so I do like medieval music. I particularly like Las Contiguous Santa Maria, these songs of Holy Mary, all 427 of them. Oh, gosh. I can sing number 100 for you, if you want. Santa Maria, Strela dea, mostranos via, perario, senosguia. I love performers who play those. There's a group called Cantiga, which is an early music group, Istapeta.

I love the medieval babes. I went to England to hear them a couple of years ago. I don't know the medieval babes. Medieval babes. It sounds like a joke, but no, it's a group of female artists who they'll sing a lot of music from anything from 11th century through very few modern works. but mostly late medieval. I like Renaissance music. So I guess I'm saying I like a lot of music.

Modern music, I do, I love Lady Gaga. Yes, yes. Adele. I've been to hear Lady Gaga in concert. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I like some indie music. I like Papalmos.

I love Pocay Lafarge, St. Louis III. So a lot of different kinds of music. Yeah, that is like very wide-ranging. Oh, I love Gilbert and Sullivan. I do like opera. Okay. So Loboim, Tosca. Yeah.

But I especially like 19th century English opera, which would be Gilbert and Sullivan, yeoman of the Guard. Okay. Pirates of Penzance. Okay. The HMS Pinafore. Oh. Do you, like, when you're driving,

around town, do you have something playing in your car? Yes. Or are you listening to, like, radio? About half and a half. I mean, I listen to NPR some, or I get out my Pandora, link it to my radio, and we'll play something. If you were going to get in your car right now, what would you listen to? There are a couple of Celtic music stations that I like.

Okay. You know, and most of those are 18, 19th, 20th century, Irish, Scottish, English songs. Love it. Yeah. This is way more varied than my answer, which is pop girlies. Pop girlies. Okay. There you go.

Okay. Yeah. So I'll try to link to all of those things. That was a lot. Really? I mean, my mind as well, right? I'll try. Gilbert and Sullivan.

We'll try. Yeah, let me know if you want me to sing something from HMSPenifold. Okay. Maybe that's a bonus episode. Okay. We make people pay for that. I am the pirate king. Okay.

Yeah, so on that note, and I hear you didn't mention Taylor Swift in that list. I do have to admit that my knowledge of contemporary music has been lacking ever since I gave up being a DJ. I mean, I still have a couple thousand CDs and several hundred LPs and about a thousand, 778 records. But I do collect them. But my knowledge of contemporary music is pretty poor. No, it's not poor. I think it's probably better than you think. Well, I do know, you know, I've been reading Taylor Swift as poetry.

Every time you give me one of her songs, I've never heard it. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's on purpose. We like that. Yeah. I'm becoming a fan. Yes. We're gonna, this is, but by the end of this podcast, it's going to be the

Swifty and the Swifty. Could be. I am in my chrysalis phase. I may yet be a butterfly. Yes. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about the song we're going to talk about today.

Okay. The song is Cowboy like me. Yes. So this is from Evermore. Evermore is, um, The second pandemic album that she put out. So she surprised dropped folklore in July of 2020. And then she said she just kind of kept writing.

And then one day she was like, in December, she was like, okay, I actually couldn't stop writing. So here's another album. She calls it, she calls Evermore and Folklore Sister albums. So you have a lot of the same, you know, themes. And there are a lot of still folklore elements, I think, throughout Evermore. Um, yeah, one thing I do want to talk about is both folklore and Evermore, um, the titles, the, the, like, actual folklore and Evermore and then the track titles, everything is lowercase. It's like stylized and lowercase. All right.

And, um. Very E. E. Cumings-esque. Yes. Yeah. And so I don't know why she chose to do that. I think about it a lot. And I always wonder why maybe she did that on these two albums, but she hasn't told us, so I don't know. And I don't really have any theories.

I don't know either. I will give you some today's interesting historic fact. Okay. Yes. So you know that the letters are generally called in our nomenclature, uppercase and lowercase letters? Mm-hmm. Do you know why? I do.

You do, really? I do. Okay. From the printing press. It is from the printing press. Because they were, the lower, the lower case ones was actually the lower case of letters that they had to pick up. And then the capital letters were in the uppercase. That's exactly right.

I used to teach bibliography, among other things. And, yeah, it's a, you know, there were even cases of blind compositors. That's what you call it when you use a compositing stick and you take the letters out and you composite the line. Okay, yeah, yeah. Right. And so they would generally put like three. lines on a compositing stick and then scrape it off into a form. Okay.

And there were actually cases of blind Dutch. A lot of the early printing houses were in today we would call the Netherlands. And they would go blind because of lead exposure. Oh. Right. But they knew where all the letters were. So they could still work when they were blind? They could still work.

They would have to have a reader, but they could still work. Because compositing, you know, quickly and accurately is an art. Interesting. Yeah, there you go. Upsetting that they went blind for it, though. Well, you know. There's a hazard in all work. Yes, yes.

And they didn't have OSHA. Right, right. And we might not soon either. No. Anyway. Yeah, okay, so Cowboy like me. Evermore, of course. Yes, you know.

Yes, let's get into that. If it's paired with folklore, and I did not know that. but, um, so yeah, I mean, it's happily evermore, right? Um, so I, I think it's an incomplete phrase and it links pretty well with folklore. Um, of course, it could also be trapped evermore or sad evermore or, um, so she does like to do this. She loves to give us words that are ambiguous. Yes. Um, but ambiguity is one of the great marks of poetry.

Yes. And it doesn't bother me a bit. Yeah. A well-written lyric can mean many things. It should mean many things. Yeah. So I don't know. Is it time for a story?

Yeah. So I took a group of students way back when I was in my early career teaching high school. I took a group of students to a summer workshop with Edward Albee, the American playwright. I want to pull a surprise. Nice. Very good playwright. And he was producing his playwright. Malcolm and the running crew had cammo, camouflage, the running crew of the ones who changed the furniture

or that kind of thing. The running crew had camo on. Well, it's a story about a guy who went to the Vietnam War. And during the talkback, one of the students asked, why did the running crew wear camo? And Edward Alby, being a good artist, said, why do you think? And the students eventually came up with seven different reasons why they might have worn camo. You know, one is it's camouflage, and you're not supposed to see the running crew, right? Another is it's set during the war. And so they wore camo to reflect that thematic element and so on, right? And so finally, one student asked, well, which is it?

And his answer was, I like them all. Yeah, yeah. So I just, I love that story. You know, it demonstrates that artists like ambiguity as well. They write those things into their work. I think she's done that here. Yeah, we get to decide what it means. Right.

Okay. So what are your first thoughts on Cowboy like me? Well, I mean, initially the title. Cowboys a metaphor. You know, it is expanded into a conceit since it's extended throughout the whole work. A conceit is an extended metaphor on which the artist builds. my very first impression you know I try to read through it

without a pencil on my hand then I pick up my pen and I start marking it up and it begins and right so we're right we're thrust immediately into the middle of things middle of a story that's right and so this is a literary technique

called in Medias race it's a Latin phrase in Medias, race, in the middle of things. Race simply Latin for things. Okay, love that. Yeah, there's another famous expression, Reis Publica, things of the people. It's where we get the word republic. Oh, okay.

Oh, look at that. Look at that. We're learning so much. That's amazing. But finally, all those years of Latin paid off. You remember I used to teach Latin as well. So, yeah. you begin in the middle and of course it begs the question why why why would you start a story

in the middle of things um the odyssey for example begins in the middle of things right odysseus washes up naked on a beach and it's taken into the throne room and meets a king-in-queen and they say who are you you know tell us your story and he tells the entire story in flashback um this story doesn't do flashback necessarily but it begins the middle of things to create tension right because you want to know well what's going on what have I missed yeah where am I even exactly what came before you know and so um I mean it's nicely done on her part she just drops us immediately into the world of a cowboy this is the I think that's the first time that she did that and when when I first heard this song it it took a minute to hit for me um but now

I love it so much um and I love that she did that. I love that it just starts on an and because who, like, that doesn't happen in, you know, pop songs. Like, we don't start in the middle of a story, but I do love the world she kind of builds in this

little, in this little song, in this little poem. Sorry, go ahead. You are the Swifty. Yeah. So next impression, I guess, is that she's the narrator in this poem is telling the story.

Mm-hmm. Okay, we don't hear from the other person she's talking with, right? She even quotes herself, but I said, comma, quote, dancing is a dangerous game, close quote, right? Yeah. So she is the sole narrator of the story. Okay, so when you have a poem that has a single narrator and tells a story, and often where the narrator is talking to another person who does not speak or may not be present, is called a dramatic monologue.

Okay. Okay. This is a dramatic monologue. Okay. So there are lots of poems, poets who love to write dramatic monologues. Maybe the most famous Robert Browning. Robert Browning wrote a whole slew of them. Andrea del Sarto. He wrote Perseph.

Perthephanese lover, he wrote My Last Duchess. My Last Duchess is probably the most famous. Okay. It's a Duke walking along explaining a portrait of his previous wife. Okay. You know, so the deal with dramatic monologues is as a reader, your duty is to figure out what's the situation. Because it's essentially like a snapshot.

shot of a much bigger play. Okay. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, if you imagine a play and you imagine taking a three-minute snippet out of that play, dramatic monologues are essentially detective stories or detective opportunities for the reader. Interesting. Right.

So you can imagine the questions that you've got to answer. What's the situation? Who is the person speaking? What type of person are they? what's the drama here? Who are they talking with? What type of person is that person? Right?

So the dramatic monologue is essentially a detective story in miniature. Okay. Love that. So we've got ourselves a detective story that we've got to figure out who is the person speaking, who's she talking to, what's the situation, and what's going on? what's going to be the resolution of this little drama? All of that in the title in the first line. Yeah, we really got there. I'm digging in.

So it's a tennis court. Uh-huh. It demonstrates some level of affluence. Yes. Okay. So they meet in a tennis court and she says it has some tent-like thing. Okay. So does the narrator belong in the world?

of affluence. No. Because she's calling it a tent-like thing. That's right. That's exactly right. I don't know what this is actually called, but it seems like a tent. Yes. Right.

So she's not used to it. Okay, so what kind of event would be hosted in a tennis court in an affluent setting under a tent-like thing? Yeah. Like a wedding, a party. Yeah. Right. So, you know, a retirement, something like that.

So we're at some kind of event. or at an affluent club setting. She doesn't really belong. And then she's asked to dance. But I said dancing is a dangerous game. So this non-sophisticated outsider is offered a dance. And it's a dangerous game. So I immediately thought of Richard Connell's most dangerous game.

Okay. That's ringing up. Bell. Yeah, he's an American short story. Okay. And this is a short story, and anyone listening may have read it before. It's kind of famous. It's often anthologized in ninth grade or tenth grade literature books. And it's a story about a guy who gets dropped onto an island, and the person who rescues him essentially sets him loose and then he hunts him down.

Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes. I do know this. And they've made multiple movies out of this. this the most dangerous game. And so, you know, I don't know if she's thinking of that. That's what I thought of. And I thought, oh, you're haunted down. Yeah, which, I mean, a man, we assume it's a man.

We don't know yet. Coming up and, like, asking you to dance can feel a little bit like you're being hunted. I do wonder. If you don't like that, man. Yeah, I mean, I do wonder if she's thinking about that. I mean, it doesn't, it's not that obscure. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm going to say Robert Browning's dramatic monologues may be a little bit more obscure.

But this is a very famous short story. Yeah. And high school kids read it and they've made it into movies. And so I wonder about it. So she says, oh, I thought this is going to be one of those things. She says, this is going to. Uh-huh. Again, she's not a sophisticated person.

She doesn't belong in this world. Interesting. Right? but she's found herself in these world. And then look at the, look at the cliche, one of those things. That's just the first of a multitude of clichés that you're going to find in this song. Yes. Okay, so generally, clichés ought to be used by the author or they should be eliminated.

A cliche is a tired, worn out phrase. and as a writer you don't want to use tired, worn outpredges. Right. Okay. When I haven't taught creative writing, I have friends who do, I have helped judge entries in literary magazines. And one of the things that we criticize is when a writer uses a lot of cliches. Okay. Young writers tend to use a lot of cliches because it's a familiar phrase.

Right. So on my first reading, I thought, wow, she's got a lot of cliches. this thing. But I wonder if she's using it because in the voice of the speaker in this dramatic monologue, she's an unsophisticated person. Yeah. Right? She is not used to operating in this world.

Cliques are also things that are spoken in a familiar tone. She wants to be familiar with people. She wants to get along. Interesting. And that's the end of our first verse. Yes. Okay. What?

Before we go on, sorry, we didn't say. This is, this was written by Taylor and Aaron Dessner. This, this song feels very Taylor and Aaron Dessner. I think it was produced also by Aaron Dessner. Yes. Just to have that, would have, could have, should have was also an Aaron Dessner song. Oh, okay.

That we've, we talked about. So, okay, actually, you keep going, because I want to wait until then to, To talk. Yeah. You know, again, if this is your first time watching it, I have never heard this song, and I don't know any backstory to the song.

Yes. I'm simply reading it like poetry. So the refrain. I've got some tricks up my sleeve. Okay, there's another cliche. Tricks up my sleeve. Takes one and no one. There's another cliche.

You're a cowboy like me. Okay. So why a cowboy, right? I mean, that's obviously in the title, and now she labels herself a cowboy, and he's a cowboy. So I want to kind of get to that near the end. Yes. But we have this kind of cascade of cliches. Again, she's trying to make herself familiar to these people by using familiar language.

So I feel like you're saying two different things, or maybe I'm hearing them as two different things. So you're unsophisticated. You're not like, you don't belong at this, like, event. So you're speaking in cliches because you're trying to fit in with people and you know that these people will know your cliches. Yeah, and I think that she is unsophiles. This is the only language she knows. That is not Taylor Swift, but the character in this dramatic monologue.

Right. And she says you're a cowboy like me, so, you know, she is. a cowboy, you know, I read that she's someone who's trying to get in. Later on, we find out she's a con man or con woman. Yeah. And so she's saying he's a con man. It takes one to no one. So they are familiars.

They are similar personalities with similar intents. Yes. And then she says in verse two, Never wanted love just a fancy car. So she is material. motivated, not emotionally interested. Right? Her introduction in this world is simply one to lease the money out that she can.

And so when she runs into this guy who is there for the same reason or for the same intent as she is, it's interesting to her, right? Maybe it's love. Yeah. Now, I'm waiting by the phone. That's a cliche. Yeah. And so finally we get a little bit of literary variance. Like I'm sitting at an airport bar.

You know, so that's a simile. Right. So sitting at an airport. She's ready to take off. She's ready to be elevated. You know, airports are exciting places. Almost no one has an argument in an airport. You know, if you've ever seen love actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

I love the, I love the opening. I love the exposition. Me too. You too. Where he says, you know, that people are always glad to see one another in an airport. Yeah. So she apparently is happy to see him.

Like there's a lot you can read into the airport. Yeah. So I didn't, I've never wanted. I was always here scheming. Right. Conning people for money. But all of a sudden, you've got me waiting by the phone. like I'm waiting to take off

To a new destination Airports are exciting They take us to new places Yeah Right so she's ready to go to a new place You just made me like that line a lot more Oh yeah? Yeah I've always felt that that was a little clunky

And awkward Like I'm sitting at an airport bar Oh But you just like made me You just I get it now Okay Well there you go

And over and out Yeah Okay, so refrain. You had your tricks up your sleeve. Takes one of no one. You're a cowboy like me. Clicay, cliche, and then the cowboy. So now we go to a chorus.

Perched in the dark. Okay, so in the dark. She may literally be in the dark. It's nighttime. She may figuratively be in the dark. How do I rest? respond to this person who's like me, how do I respond to an emotionally charged situation where in the past I've been motivated, you know, monetarily. Now I'm being motivated emotionally. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. She is in the dark. She has been telling all the rich people anything they want to hear. So again, she's got to be a con man or a con woman.

like it could be love, I could be the way forward only if they pay for it. So could be, could be. Yeah. But she's, it's not love and she's not their future. She's just after the money. Yep. However, the person she's talking with,

she says, you're a bandit like me, eyes full of stars. so a bit of a cliche I'm beginning to get tired of the cliches by this point but I get it you know I mean apparently that person reciprocates her feelings exactly

you know can we call him he I don't know it could be a she it could the other person is someone who's been motivated for the money the other person is someone who's been selling their love, selling their interest, you know, selling their devotion, and then all of a sudden maybe they find something different. Yep. Hustling for the good life, never thought I'd meet you here. You know, so you see the good life and never thought I'd meet you here, kind of a juxtaposition of material.

and emotional needs and expectations, right? She needs the good life. She needs the money, but she never really realized that maybe she also needs love. The love, yeah. It could be love. We could be the way forward,

and I know I'll pay for it. Okay, so we're echoing the first part of the chorus where she promises love and a future to these wealthy people, but it's a lie. Now she is wondering if she has found love and a future, and she knows that investing in that will ultimately cost her something. But also, like, what if he is just a cowboy? That's right.

And then she's going to pay for it the same way that she's made all these other people pay for it. Yes. So we don't know yet. Yeah. Right. Again, is a dramatic monologue. In a dramatic monologue, we only get a three-minute snippet out of a much bigger play. Yeah.

And so we don't know. Are his intentions genuine, you know, or is it going to be turn out to just be another cowboy con man? With eyes full of stars. Mm-hmm. So that's like your starry-eyed, you've got stars in your eyes. That's like you are almost like naively. hopeful. Right. Yes. Yes. I would think so.

That's what I always got out of that. But is saying, I love the phrase eyes full of stars. Like, I've literally thought about getting this tattooed because I love it so much. But like, is that a way that people phrase it or did she turn that? Is it normally just like starry-eyed stars in your eyes

and she turned it to eyes full of stars? I think she turned it. Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen it stated that way. Okay. Yeah, I took it for that starry-eyed or you know, cliche. Yeah. But yeah. I love that line.

I don't know why. I just like starry things probably. I'm not even going to ask where you would have it tattooed. Not my business. Not my business, Angela. I'm in a location like, you know. Which tattoo shop? Exactly.

Would you have it done in Lower Greenville? Right. Would you go, yeah. Yeah, totally. That's right. Okay. Next chorus. Yes.

You're a cowboy like me, Parchs in the dark, telling all the rich folks anything they want to hear. So, you know, that's what she's been doing, conning the rich folks like it could be love.

I could be the way forward only if they pay for it. So we're echoing that whole thing again. You're abandoned, eyes full stars, hustling for the good life, and it just goes through. Yeah, same again.

Same again. So I actually was wondering why she repeated the course. Yeah, I don't. That is interesting. I mean, if I were editing a creative arts magazine, I would take it. Yeah, you're like, why would we do this twice? Yeah, I would say, you know, circle it and say remove it or do something a little different.

Or, you know, repeat it and change the lyric a little bit. Yeah, yeah, which she does often in the chorus is she'll change a little tiny little, you know, flip it somehow. But yeah, yeah, it is interesting that she repeats it twice here with no changes at all. Right. Yeah. So I'm anxious to hear the song. Yeah. Again, I have not heard the song. So I'm going to, I'm anxious to hear how she manipulates that. The bridge. Bridge. We're to the bridge. And the skeletons in both our closets. Oh, that's another cliche. Skeletons in the closet. At this point, do you, like, you're getting tired of the cliches, but do you feel like she's, like, she's, like, she's, like she has a reason for doing, like, do you don't think? I feel like she's a good reason for doing it.

So, yeah, that's one of my questions is why the cliches. Yeah. Why the use of informal language? Is it to make it easier to be friends? Is it to make it easier to be familiar in her, you know, out of place, atmosphere where she finds herself? Is she trying to be friendly to the guy or the other con person? Mm-hmm. I don't know.

Yeah, okay. But I am going to say that yes. Yeah, I can tell. I can hear the exhaustion in your voice. Yeah, it's funny because I guess I'm having read a couple of her other songs by now that Angela has given me that I have not seen before. I expected more. And that to me is what. Like, and I just have a lot of trust in her as an artist, too much, maybe.

It feels like it has to be on purpose. Like, she doesn't use words or any, she doesn't, she doesn't do anything in her music that kind of isn't for a purpose. Like, it usually makes sense, but I don't know, I don't exactly know what the purpose is here. So, yeah, I mean, in a class, I always tell students to expect a high degree of intentionality. Mm-hmm. You know, great writers write with intentionality. They don't go oops. Right.

When Shakespeare writes Romeo and Juliet and rhythmically, Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet are exactly the same rhythmic pattern, which is Dactylic Demeter. Of course. In a play, which features iambic pentameter, right? Everything else in the play is iambic, but they're not. names and they are star-crossed lovers who are meter matched. Oh, okay.

That's not accidental. Right. Shakespeare didn't go, oops. I'm going to call them that. Yeah. No. And so I understand if you credit her with being a great writer, then writers write with a high degree of intentionality.

Mm-hmm. It just doesn't work for me. Okay. Fair. Yeah. Okay, so skeletons in the closet, they mean that they both have done things that they are, would otherwise be ashamed of should it come out. And then, of course, in the context of a dramatic monologue, we're supposed to wonder, what would that be? You know, was it just conning old people or was it conning themselves from time to time?

Was it a broken relationship? Is this relationship going to last? Yeah. Right. So skeleton in the closet has like far reaching ramifications when you realize in a dramatic monologue we don't have all the answers. Right. That's why they're so delicious. Yeah. Right.

That's why they're fun to read. That's why we keep coming back. That's right. So plotted hard to fuck this up. Oh, we got F bum. Oh, man. Just not used to that. So I have my copy of.

of E.E. Cummings Complete Poetry up there. And when I was a kid, I found out that there was one poem by E.E. Cummings that typesetter wouldn't set the type for. And so I got a copy of the complete poems. And I turned to that page. And it's handwritten. And in his handwriting? In his handwriting. And in the book. And the title of the poem is, the boys, I mean, are not refined. and because I'm 14 at the time, I immediately memorized the whole thing. E.E. Coming could be a nasty bastard from time. Oh my gosh. Okay. We'll have to dig into that one after this. Yeah. Link that.

Oh, no. I'm going to get kicked off YouTube or something. All of which is to say, even great riders drop the F-Bron time to time. Or he has another poem. I sing of Olaf, glad, and big. Check that one out. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, they plotted hard to fuck this up and the old men that I've swindled. So, you know, she is a swindler. And I wondered about that line plotted hard to fuck this up because it felt like, is she talking about the current relationship?

Is, you know, do you plan for something so hard, so tediously that ultimately you fuck it up? Yeah, you're doing it to yourself. It's not the skeletons. That's right. Really, did I believe I was the one? And the ladies launching had their stories about when you passed through town. But that was all before I locked it down. Yeah.

Oh, I'm not going to do that again. That's all in the past. Don't worry about that. You know, they each have their marks. They each have their moments of indiscretion. Mm-hmm. And neither one of them is entirely trustworthy. Mm-hmm.

So we're coming to the end of our dramatic monologue. Yeah. We're building to that question, is this going to work? Can these two possibly be faithful to one another? Okay. The third verse, I think, for me, because I'm looking for a little complexity. Yes. Was the best.

Now you hang from my lips like the Gardens of Babylon. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I loved that simile and that allusion. Okay, so it's a simile using the word like as or that. But it's also an allusion, a L-L-U-S-I-O-N, an allusion is a reference to a person-placed thing or idea in previous history or literature, and so she is referencing the gardens of Babylon. And I just had to chew on that as a simile and an illusion for a while.

Is that a pun? Because she's saying he hangs from her lips and you had a chew on it. I'm glad you caught that. And I'm not, I'm serious. I'm not talking tongue and cheek. Stop. I'm beginning to feel a little down in the mouth. No, staff.

Okay. I should have never, I should have never started. I know. I'm going to hang on to a tooth and nail. So the reason why I find it really an interesting simile and an interesting allusion is the Gardens of Babylon okay so they're one of the seven wonders

of the ancient world along with the Pyramid of Giza and the Temple of Artemis and Ephesus and you know Halicarnassus and that giant statue in Rhodes and all those look them up the gardens of Babylon

though is the only one for which we don't have absolute evidence. I mean, people refer to it. We believe it's in, it would have been built in the time of Nebuchadnezzar the second. Remember my first degrees in classical civilizations. Nebuchadnezzar the second lived in that time span, which if you're at all interested in the Bible, is very famous. That would be during the conquest of, Judea, Judah. And so Israel had already fallen around 622.

Ultimately, Judea falls. They get attacked in 597. 587, they will fall and they go into what's called the Babylonian captivity. And so you get the book of Daniel recounting the Babylonian captivity. It's fascinating biblical. So it's right there in the lake. 800s BCE

and we're not sure it existed, right? There's no archaeological evidence of it. There are pictures of it in Asero-Babyelonian graphic art

and relief. Oh, okay. There are references to it, but some sources also call it the gardens of Nineveh rather than gardens of Babylon. Okay.

I was so interested in it because it could be mythical. Yeah, that does add like an extra layer. Right. And so if you hang from my lips like the Garden of Babylon and now she's sleeping with a guy or dreaming of sleeping with him with your boots beneath my bed forever is the sweetest calm. You know, so is she imagining living? living with him forever with her boots beneath her bed, that they're in bed together, now they're together.

Uh-huh. Or is it real? Interesting. Right. So I really did wonder about that. I'd love the reference to the gardens of Babylon. You know, there are some later scholars, Josephus, and a bunch of Roman historian who write about the gardens of Babylon,

but they're writing six and seven hundred years later. And so there's no direct evidence. You know, they may be picking up legends that they heard of the past. Folklore, you might say. Exactly. Folklore. So the question for me is, is this real? Is it imagined?

Is it mythical? Interesting. Or is this the genuine ever more? Oh, oh, oh. So, we're near the end. I've had some tricks up my sleeve. Takes one to no one. you're a cowboy like me.

So is he thinking the same thing? Is this just mythical? Is it going to work out? Is this everlasting? Are we going to be together? And then we come to the final finals. And I'm never going to love again. I'm never going to love again.

Oh, oh, I'm never going to love again. Okay. What does that mean to you? I got no idea. Okay, because there's, so she starts the, she starts the, sorry, she ends the first verse with, this is, oh, I thought this was going to be one of those things. But now I know I'm never going to love again. And then we end the song with, I'm never going to love again. Is that this, I, like you're saying, it's all mythical, it's, maybe it's all mythical, it's all imagined.

and I got so close to falling in love and I realized that's a dangerous game, so I'm never going to love again. Or is it real? His boots are beneath their bed, and I'm never going to love again, as in this love is the love I'm going to have for my whole life. So there's never going to be another person.

Tag another cliche out of saying, he's the love of my life. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So in literature, that's what we call an indeterminate ending. Okay. Okay.

We don't know. Okay. Okay. So the best dramatic monologues are the ones that end with, I'm not sure. So what you're saying is that she took, she did this, this. literary thing of a dramatic monologue and she did it well. Well, yeah. I'm going to throw the clichés out, but yeah, it's a classic dramatic monologue.

It's a classic moment where we just, you know, it depends upon who you are and how you're feeling at the moment. If you just broke up with your significant other, you're saying, well, she's just like me, fucked it up. Yeah, and I'm never going to love again. I'm never going to do that again. Yeah. Yeah.

It was all gardens of Babylon, mythical crap. Or if you have just found the love of your life and you're feeling absolutely terrific about yourself, then you're going to read this. You're going to go, oh, that's so sweet. She has found someone just like herself. I would like to say on that note that this song came out approximately two months after Chase and I officially started dating. And so how do you... That would be her eventual husband for those of your accounting. So, Angela, how do you read this book?

So I have always read this as super hopeful, super happy, super we forever is the sweetest con. We're going to con each other for the rest of our lives. We conned each other out of being cowboys. Now we're going to have to go be normal people together. is always the reading that I've taken. And now you're making me think that this is like that reader response thing you were talking about, where we always just bring ourselves into it. And other people might have a different reading of this.

Maybe another reader might take a look at that and go, uh-uh. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's the deal. That's the deal. Yeah, that's, you know, again, if you, um, Go back and read any of those Robert Browning dramatic monologues. You know, you'll see that there are moments in them where the narrator, the character who's speaking reveals something about his or herself. And you think, oh, they're a liar and a cheat. You can't trust them.

They're an unreliable narrator. Or, oh, no, I really do trust them. Yeah. And different people will read it a little differently. Yeah. So this is an indeterminate ending? personally I like that I like the

ambiguity that runs through it yeah me too that's fun so yeah I mean I thought it was fun I could read past the cliches I wish it had a little bit more creativity yeah you know in terms of those cliches

but still enough for me that it was it was fun to read yeah and I so I did obviously I caught on to all of the weird cliches and stuff but Yeah, it does make me wonder Because I do think she's so intentional in her writing

Like, I feel like she must have had to do She must have been doing it for a reason And then that makes it But what do I know? I know nothing. Sometimes there's just a miss, you know? Sometimes it's a bad reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like sometimes it's just like, you know, they're not all tense, you know? Right. So I do have one more why for you. I always tell students that the most important question that you can ask is why? Okay, yes. So you're reading any work of literature or you're watching a player, watching a movie, and they do something and you say, okay, why?

You know, how does it function in the plot? How does it reveal character? You know, if it's springtime, why is it springtime? Is it a symbol of new love? Is it regrowth? Is it new birth? Mm-hmm. Right?

So why cowboys? Yeah. Instead of conmen, why cowboys? So that's a great question. We don't know. But this, okay, go for it. No, no, you answer. I was just going to say, like, Taylor's career started out in country music.

Ah, mm-hmm. And so I feel like the cowboy motif just kind of makes sense for her. But you tell me. Well, and actually, one of the few things I know about her is she started in country music. and so I did wonder if she's using that, you know, as a metaphor for her early beginnings in country where she's actually trying to con people into liking her music. Oh. Yeah. I also know that cowboys are a heroic image in American culture.

Mm-hmm. Right. So, you know, the hero image of the cowboy, I think, works well in the context. of the tennis court world where she's trying to wheedle her way in and buy some agency with a group that she may or may not be completely familiar with. So, you know, I like the cowboy image.

I also think that we think of cowboys as being trustworthy, right? Okay, yeah. You know, the lone... Yeah, the lone ranger. He's going to give you a silver bullet. Doesn't always shoot you with it. Yeah, I mean, you. You know, you can trust Tom Mix or Clayton Moore, the Lone Ranger.

Yeah, I was like, uh-huh. I totally trust him. Right. You know, I don't think that they're all broke back. Oh. So, yeah, I did wonder about the cowboy. I came up with a few answers. But like that, Edward Alby play, I'm sure other people have answers as to why cowboys.

I'd be interested to hear them. Yeah, me too. Yeah, to see if they're well placed in the structure of this dramatic monologue. Yeah. Do you think that this is a country club? I do. It feels like she's sort of invaded the country club atmosphere and she's run into a similar person. Yeah.

You know, if you've ever seen the movie Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. No. Okay. They only made it twice. It's a familiar story. where a con man run into each other and then ultimately start competing with each other. Oh, okay. And a con woman gets in the act as well.

Of course. So, and they're all working in the kind of rarefied air of gambling houses in southern France or Monaco. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's interesting that she says cowboy while she's, like, why she makes it masculine? Yeah, but I think it's... Or do you think it's just the cliche about all?

I think it's the metaphor she's working with. I also like it because a cowboy tends to be... You know, the image is the loner. Yes. You know, and so she is alone. Yeah. That image is no more evidence than in the story of Shane. Again, I don't know if you've seen the movie Shane.

where Shane rides off at the end. Oh, no, did I just ruin it for you? Oh. Everybody was going to watch that this weekend. Come back, Shane. Mama loves you. I love you. Yes, this is from the movie.

This little boy calling to his hero, Cowboy, who is riding off into the sunset. Yeah, very cowboy. Yeah, well, and I think that we, therefore, cowboys a little bit synonymous with a loneliness. Mm-hmm. Right.

And in the context of this dramatic monologue, she has been lonely, he has been lonely, and somehow their loneliness comes together, and either it does or doesn't work. We don't know. However you think. Okay, do you want to listen?

Absolutely. All right, let's listen. So we are going to just watch the lyric video, very Western. Okay, and we won't play this on the show, on the pod, but we will be back with thoughts. Okay. Thoughts. Well, obviously, first time I heard the song.

Yes. It feels like a country western song. Yes. It's got that rhythm. A little twangy. A little twangy. I probably, I feel like I wonder if I read too much into the informality of the use of the word Ghana, because it feels now like she, She's affecting a kind of country slang.

Oh, so it's just as, it's just the style of the song, maybe. And she, one thing that I didn't say was what's missing from the poem is a lot, it's a lot of rhyme. Okay, yeah. You know, a couple of the other songs you've given me have a lot of rhyme. Internal rhyme or cross, sight rhyme that I like very much. but she rhymes forward and for it. She says, she says,

It could be the way forward, foreign, foreign, and I know I'll pay for it. I thought. That hurt your ear a little? That was a little ouchy. Yeah, yeah, that was just a little ouchy. I will say the bridge made a little better sense to me when she sang it. Yeah, yeah.

The skeletons brought hard to fucking. this up so that their past indiscretions, their past lies and the way they've cheated others in the past try hard to get in the way of establishing a permanent relationship. Like a real, a real relationship. Right, yeah, it's hard to know what's real when you've been living a lie for so long. Yeah. Yeah. And that really does make me, I'm coming down on the whole indeterminate ending that,

It doesn't work out. Yeah. You know, that she's never going to love again because she knows she can't make it work. Those skeletons are too powerful. Yeah, this isn't who she is. Right. Yeah. I could be wrong.

For those of you who think this is a lovely romantic, beautiful ending that Cinderella goes off with the prince, then live in that. Because some of us have eyes full of stars. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Okay. I'm so excited to hear about, I feel like this is going to be the lowest grade you've given so far. I'm feeling that myself. So I'm interested to hear what this is going to be.

Okay, so we're going to grade it now. We have five categories that we average up. So these are lyrical strength, narrative and structure, production and atmosphere, lore and literary references, and emotional impact. Okay. So let's go lyrical strength. Okay. Can I just say before I start throwing out grades that it is possible to like a song

without acknowledging it's a great poem? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Nobody's going to be offended. Okay, good. Lyrical strength, I mean, for me, this is about an 85. Okay.

Narrative and structure. I mean, I did kind of like the dramatic monologue, I love dramatic monologics. I'm sorry, I'm a huge fan of Robert Browning. His wife, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, was famous before he became famous. And then late in the 19th century, he became so famous that they had Browning Societies. You know, I have read a paper at the Browning Society at Baylor University. Oh, I know that place.

Yes, you do. So do your parents. Yeah. Yeah. On the campus of Baylor is the Armstrong Browning Library. Oh, wow, I never made that connection. That library is beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful.

It is said to be the largest connection of secular stained glass in America. So it has stained glass insets of many of his poems. Yeah. Because they're so narrative. Okay. Yeah, I love a good dramatic monologue. so I may be prejudiced disposed in favor

of the narrative structure here I think she does a nice job especially with the indeterminate ending so I'm going to say 90 Okay yeah I do feel like once you started talking about all of that even though I could tell you were like annoyed by the lyrics a little like the cliches

I do feel like what she set out to do which I don't think is the thing she's really done before I feel like she kind of did that you know she sort of accomplished that goal Okay. Production and atmosphere. You know, I liked it as a country song.

Me too, yeah. Kind of lovely. You know, when I listened to it again, I think I would. The redundancy of the chorus and then the chorus again, you know, it doesn't bother me as much. It bothered me reading it. It doesn't bother me as much. There's like a big instrumental in between the two. There is. Yeah.

I feel it's a little like a song like, have you ever heard the song, I'm Henry the 8th I am? I'm Henry the 8th I am. And then they get to the second verse and they say second verse, same as the first. Yeah, yeah. And they just sing it again. Yeah. And it's like, who cares? It's a great song.

We're having fun. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm going to say it's a 90. Okay. Yeah, it was fun. These are higher grades than I thought you were going to give it. Okay. lore and literary references.

Oh, you know, I'm just going to say not a lot. As much as I liked the Gardens of Babylon, which is an image worth thinking about, it didn't give me a great deal. That was kind of it. Yeah, so I'm going to say 82. Okay. And then emotional impact. That's tough. Yeah.

You know, after Valentina left me when I was 14, 15, I've had a pretty happy romantic life. And so, I mean, I heard this and I thought, did she leave him? Did she not? Did he leave her? Did he not? Well, I'm okay either way. I don't really care that much. Not a lot.

It didn't really hit me. Doesn't make a difference in my life. So I'm going to say 82. Okay. Fine. I mean, I understand if maybe if you just got over one of those relationships where you were conned, and maybe this just makes you weep. I don't know that anybody's weeping to this one.

No. Okay. So that gives us 86. Could be a little high. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was going to be lower. Yeah. I mean, if I were going to, if I were actually grading this, I would probably give it an 82.

Okay. and then adjust my grades down. But I'm good with 86. Okay. Nobody's grades are actually affected here. No. Okay. I actually love this because this song, to me, like, it was one that had to grow on me.

But once it did kind of click for me, I really like it. But I did think that it would be one that I thought it was, it's interestingly done, which is why I wanted to do it early. But yeah, I didn't. didn't know how you were going to think about it, what you were going to think about it. So, you know, okay, so one of the minors on my PhD in English was linguistics. Uh-huh. And from a linguistic standpoint, I did find it interesting. There's something called Dexis, which is the use of proximal references.

So personal dexas is, if you go through and count the number of times, she says, I, you, I, you. I think it's interesting and creates a pattern and I'd like to look at it more. The other thing that I found interesting I'd like to think about more is the progression of the time progression of the song. So it begins in Medias Rays, but there's a before, a during, and an after. Right. And so, I mean, she does that. It was covered. So Ah, he, you asked.

So we're in the past tense. And then she says, now. Then we switch to now. Yeah. Right. Now I'm waiting by the phone. Yeah. But then we switch to in the future, I'm never going to love again.

And I found that to be interesting. Yeah. So that was interesting. Yeah. Maybe 86 is okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

We'll give it to her. Yeah. I mean, I'd like to. this is one of those where if I were actually writing about it, I would take what I saw about pronoun use and, you know, like proximal use of language. And I would like to match that with a series of her other works and say, is this something she does frequently? Is this unique? How is she using it? That kind of thing.

So, you know. Well, maybe in like a year you'll be able to do that. Maybe I will. You can have so much Taylor Swift knowledge, lyrical knowledge in your head. You're going to be able to do that. I can't wait. It's all you've ever wanted, right?

That's the apex of your career. Thank you for leading me to this, yeah. Okay, that was fun. Or maybe conning me into it. Because you're a cowboy like me. Yeah. Okay, that was fun. We got it 86.

She's dipped into the bees, but we're okay with it. Okay. Sometimes you have to get it be. Sometimes. It teaches you something. Yeah. Okay. So that's all for us today.

Make sure you're subscribed on YouTube, Spotify. You can find us on socials at Swiftie and Scholar Pod. And I am at Angela Wyatt on Instagram. And Uncle Jerry is here reading a book. Reading one of these books. So don't find him. Okay. We'll be back again.

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