The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Folklore Elements of My Tears Ricochet

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

In the debut episode of The Swiftie and The Scholar, Angela McDow, the Swiftie, and her uncle Dr. Jerry Coats, the Scholar, dig into My Tears Ricochet, the fifth track from Taylor Swift's Folklore album. They discuss the different folklore elements that Taylor uses in the song, the prevailing fan theory on the song's inspiration, and Uncle Jerry watches his first Eras Tour performance.Works Cited:The White Lady in FolkloreMorphology of the Folktale – V. Propp – Affiliate LinkMotif-Index of Folk-Literature; Volume 6.1 Index (A-K) – Stith Thompson – Aff LinkMotif-Index of Folk-Literature; Volume 6.1 Index (L-Z) - Stith Thompson – Aff LinkFrom the Beast to The Blonde – Marina WarinerThe Uses of Enchantment – Bruno Bettelheim – Aff LinkYvonne Jocks - GoodreadsFollow Us:Podcast InstagramAngela's InstagramPodcast TikTok

Welcome to the very first episode of The Swiftie and The Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDowell, the Swifty. And I am Dr. Jerry Coates, the scholar. Hi. Hello, Angela. It's so exciting to be here today. Are you excited? I'm excited to do this, yeah. So I just want to talk a little bit about why we're here and what this podcast is before we get into this.

song we're going to do today. Okay. So, I have always wanted to have a podcast, but never had a great idea. I always knew it would be Taylor adjacent, but never had, like, but never had, you know, an idea that really was exciting or was a different thing than anyone else was doing. And then one day, probably six or eight weeks ago, it, while I was driving, to work, this idea hit me, and it was a podcast with me and my Uncle Jerry. That's me.

And I then spent the next three weeks putting together a PowerPoint to convince you to do this podcast. And it's where we just go song by song through Taylor's discography and discuss them through a literary lens. And the reason that I knew that had to be you as the co-host was because of who you are and what you've done and your expertise for your entire career and life. Also because I'm your uncle. Yes. Yeah. So do you know anything about Taylor Swift? I know that she is taller than I had anticipated. And that she dates. And that she dates. a member of the Kansas City Chief. And I have heard one of her songs where haters got to hate, hate, hate.

Yeah. Then that's about it. And that's your favorite song in all of songs? No. You know, I mean, it's a good song. It serves a purpose. Yeah, it does. Okay, so what is your career and educational background?

Let's get into that. Okay. So I earned my bachelor's degree at the University of Texas. And my bachelor's degree is in classical civilizations with a focus on Roman life. So I'm perfect for Taylor Swift. Yeah. I do read Latin and some Greek. And I got a master's degree in history and a master's degree in English literature.

And my English is particularly focused. on 16th, 17th, 18th century, 19th century. I wrote my master's thesis on Charles Dickens. Okay. Not on Dickens. He was dead. On paper. And I worked on my PhD in English at TCU with a focus on 18th and 19th century literature.

And then I also earned a PhD, so I have to put on the hat. So I have a PhD in medieval studies. So again, perfect for Taylor Smith. What was your, did you have to do like a thesis for your PhD, yes? Yes. What was that? What was the title of your thesis? So in English, I was working on, I'm excited to do some folklore today.

I was working on folklore, fairy tale origins of the British novel. and my history dissertation is in Maryology, the study of the Virgin Mary. Oh, okay, yes, I do remember you talking about that. Yeah, so it's really about pop culture images of hagiography of Saints' lives and how that matriculates into culture and how it rebounds. I walked to community in Santiago and studied at, went to Ellis Coriol, a great Augustinian monastery outside of Madrid, Marit, and I've got to look at manuscripts of things like Las Contiguous to Santa Maria.

Ordinary reading, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, we've all read that. When you talk about the images of the Virgin Mary, did you talk about how people see her in toast and stuff? Yes, yeah. For real? Yeah, I would, not in my dissertation, but, Yes, I am looking forward to working on a book that I'm calling the 2000-year life of the Virgin.

And so I look at the Virgin Mary from biblical sources, which are fairly scant, and there's been a lot of really good work done on that. But I look at how she changes and becomes the center, the Theotokos, the Godbearer, and how pop culture sustains her throughout history. Okay. I know. It's fascinating. Yeah, that actually is.

You know, I mean, I have to say I love it. I've tracked down and gone to all kinds of different Marian sites and looks at all kinds of shrines. And it's a lot of fun for me. Oh, that's amazing. When are you going to write this book? I have no idea. I'm working on a podcast right now. Yeah, you're busy.

Okay, I love that. I have none of those credentials, except that I have studied Taylor Swift that deeply. And that's the expertise that I bring to this podcast. As few have, I'm sure. Yeah, so I have been a Swifty since the very beginning, since her debut album, and her songwriting is the thing that, you know, keeps me coming back, and I spend so much time thinking about it and talking about it. And that's why we're here.

Okay. Yeah. So let's get into this song. Okay. I'm excited to do that. Today, we are talking about My Tears Rickshay, which is from Taylor's pandemic album, folklore. This song came out in 2020. She wrote it with, she wrote it herself.

And the production is her, Jack Antonoff, who is a frequent collaborator. And also William Bowery, who is now, so when folklore came out, there were a few songs written and or produced by William Bowery, who is not a real person. That's a shame for him. Yeah. It's a great loss to his family. And everyone was like, who's William Bowery? why is this person that doesn't like exist anywhere online and doesn't have any previous credits and then they slow quickly swiftly figured out that it was a pen name for taylor's boyfriend at the time joe allwin and now he is credited as joe alwin not william bowery

but um that's just an interesting little ted bit so um more about this album taylor had this is Taylor's eighth album. Love her came out in 2019. She had lover fest planned for 2020 and that obviously didn't happen because of a small thing that happened throughout

the world. And when everything got canceled she says she just you know she all of a sudden didn't know if I can't perform for these people like who even am I basically and she just got to writing and we ended

getting two albums in 2020, but the first one was folklore. And this album is kind of completely different than anything she had done before. It's very paired down production-wise. She played a lot with folklore. So all of these songs aren't as confessionalist and diaristic as some of her previous ones where she plays with other characters. This song, however, is not that. This song, I think, is very personal. This is track five on folklore. And track fives are kind of a thing in Taylor Swift's world. Okay.

So after her third or fourth album, people realized that the fifth track on her albums always ended up kind of being the most personal and the most, like, deeply, I think, held by her. like and now she makes a point to always make track five's the the most personal song on the album and that's what this one is okay so with all of that information what are your first impressions of my tears ricochet well um so let me let me um return to my methodology yes yes yes Please talk about your method of all of it. I print out a copy rather than trying to work on my computer and putting tabs. I do print out a copy and then I mark all over it.

You know, any literary devices that I see. I read through the whole thing once, just as it would any poem, just to get a feeling or an impression. So she's very sad. Yes. One thing before you go, before we keep going, you have not heard this song. I have not heard of this song. I only gave you the lyrics. That's correct.

So you have not heard it. You're only reading it and dissecting it as if it was a poem. That's right. I read the song. I received the song two days ago. I've been reading it and taking a look at it, thinking about it. I don't use any internet sources, so I don't want to know or need to know what other people have had to say about it. If I repeat some of the things that is commonly known, forgive me, because I'm kind of doing this in the blind.

and by myself just as a kind of fun scholarly exercise. Yes. So, yeah, I guess my first impression was I did wonder since the album was titled Folklore. I was looking for folklore elements. And I guess one of the first things that I thought of that immediately hit me was the white lady folklore. So there is a series of stories called The Woman in White. a kind of a femme fatal who wanders, frequently she characterizes a ghost or sometimes as a vampire

in a lot of different manifestations. And one of the sources that I always use as a folklorist is Stiff Thompson. Thompson is an American folklorist who talks about the, writes about the morphology of the folk tale. Of course I have his book here in a more. We have a book. They are surrounded by books. I'm sorry, the morphology of the folk tales by Vladimir Prop,

but Prop and Thompson and others work on folktales. Thompson actually has a, he's an American, has a list of folklore. So the Arn Thompson folklore index is something that folklorists use, and they index all different kinds of folklore. Okay. Okay. Because folklore back in the day wasn't always, it was passed down.

It wasn't like always written down, correct? Right. Yeah. You know, what we frequently say is that it's by adults for adults, so that the transition into the children's literature doesn't really come until the late 17th or early 18th century. So prior to that, primarily stories for adults. That's why there are frequently some troubling elements. Yes, in the Disney movies.

In the Disney movies that show a manifestation of the adult world. So, yeah, I was really interested in that. Should we just start with the lyrics? Yeah, sure. Okay. So, I mean, the opening line is we gather here. And initially I'm wondering, okay, so that, That's the type of thing you say at a wedding.

It's also the type of thing we say at a funeral. Yes. Right. So obviously this is a funeral. Yeah. But I did wonder how much she's dealing with the juxtaposition of wedding and funeral. Oh, okay. Right.

Interesting. Yeah. Oh, okay. No. Yep. I've never thought of this, but now thinking of lyrics further down, I see where you're going. Yeah. I mean, so we've got a what could have been a marriage, but now.

now is not. It's some kind of a funeral. It's some kind of a breakup, some kind of an ending. We line up, maybe around a casket, weeping in a sunlit room. So I like it because that's an oxymoron, right? So you're crying and it's sunlit. So, you know, you think of sunlight as being happy and joyful, but it's not. Yeah. They're sad. And she's on fire, or at least the narrator, is on fire. Can't assume that this is Taylor Swift. Yes. You'll, and you'll be made of ashes too. So she's addressing an interlocular, someone she's talking with.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Even on my worst day, did I deserve Babe? Okay, someone she's familiar with, all the hell you gave me. Oh, okay. So we're out of funeral. We got lots of funeral and hell imagery throughout the poem, because I loved you, I swear I love you till my dying day.

I've literally never put together that she's like all the hell you gave me and she's saying if I'm on fire. Right. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Fire and hell and ashes. Yeah. A pretty sympathetic series of images.

Yeah. So nicely done on her part. And then we go to the chorus. Yeah. So am I on base so far? Am I okay? Uh-huh. Okay.

So we go to the chorus. I didn't have it in myself to do. to go with grace. Okay, so this to me feels ironic because, you know, what remits our sins, what gets us out of hell, well, it's the grace of God. You know, you read Second Corinthians talks about grace, Romans talks about grace. There are 100 passages. Ephesians, too, talks about the grace of God.

So this rescuing power, but she doesn't have it because she's from hell. Yeah. She's been sent to hell. That's right. And then I like the next line because she describes a hero flying around. So I have to admit, my first thought was Superman. Me too, yeah. Okay. So, you know, is this person or entity she's describing, was it a Superman?

And then she says, saving face. And I like the word saving because in the previous line. Grace. More grace, right? So grace saves, right? But this is a kind of false saving, because it's not going to rescue her, right? So we have lots of irony. He's not super.

He's not saving. And if I'm dead to you, why are you at the wake? So there's been a parting of ways to them. And her question is, okay, so somehow we broke up. And so why the heck are you at my funeral if you're not? longer a part of my life. If you didn't offer me the grace that led to the marriage implied by the first line we gather here.

Yeah. Yeah. Cursing my name, wishing I stayed, look at how my tears ricochet. Okay. So they're bouncing back on him or this other supposed entity. So when I first saw the track title, My Tears Ricochet, I immediately went to Taylor's debut album that came out when she was 16 years old has like one of it was one of the singles i think it was the second single she ever came out with is called teardrops on my guitar okay and so you have to

put yourself into teen girl mode here for this song okay i'm ready can do it i'm ready so this song is all about like he's the reason for the teardrops on my guitar you know he doesn't see me as you know his girlfriend, he sees me as a friend. And so I'm crying while I'm writing these songs. And now, as a 30-year-old woman, this song, her tears are ricocheting. And so I always wonder, I always go back to that

tear drops on my guitar. And she obviously still goes to her guitar whenever she's struggling. Or anytime, anytime she's feeling any emotion, she goes to her guitar, I think. But especially in moments of sadness, she's going to her guitar. But now I feel like those teardrops aren't just on her guitar. They're like ricocheting to other people.

Oh, right. Is what I see in my head. Like, they're like, I'm upset, but so are, like, my tears are ricocheting onto you because you're, you know, you're cursing my name. You're wishing I stayed like you hurt yourself just as much as you hurt me. Yeah. And ricocheting was some force and power, I would guess. because she's a billionaire, at least according to my understanding.

And she has a whole group of fans. Yes. Much more power now than she did before. You actually reminded me, okay, so I'm going to, this is a side story. Yes. So one of my good friends Yvonne Jock's, who taught at the same institution I worked at, who's also a romance writer, by the way, she's written more than 20 novels. Fun.

I know. Check out Yvonne Jocx. I hope to be here someday. She's great. She suggested that I read Hunger Games when it came out. And I started reading it, and I have to admit I wasn't enjoying it all that much. And I went to Vaughn and I asked her. So, I mean, it's just okay, but it feels a little whiny.

And it doesn't really feel like it's all that great. And she said, well, you need to tap into your inner 14-year-old girl. Yes. It's very important. It made the book better for me. And I've read all three of them. I've read the others. And I actually like them a great deal.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I must have an inter-14-year-old girl. We all do. There's a line from, I think it's from New Girl, where I don't even remember the context, but she's like, but we all have a, she's talking about women. And she's like, we all still have a 15-year-old girl inside of us. And I think that, yeah, there is, like, of course things feel differently when you're a teenager than they do when you're an adult when you have, you know, hindsight and context and, you know, perspective.

but yeah I think it does make all of those so like Hunger Games, your Harry Potter's, you're all of the and these songs, well not these so much, she's an adult in these songs, but the earlier Taylor songs, like I think tapping into that, it really it adds another layer of enjoyment. Makes it feel a little better. Yes. Okay. Okay. Love it. Okay, so moving on, let's see, verse two. And I have to admit, I really like verse.

too. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, I think it's got lots of biblical illusion, which is fun. So she starts off with, we gather stones. Okay, so why is she gathering stones? So my mind immediately goes to any number of biblical illusions, right? Or to a Bob Dylan song. Okay, fair. What Bob Dylan song? Well, okay, so in Ecclesiastes 3, the author says that there's a time to cast away stones and a time to bring stones together. And Bob Dylan uses that song, that lyric in one of the songs. And so gathering stones is a kind of building lyric. It's a memorializing lyric when, in Joshua, the book of Joshua and the people of Israel cross over the Jordan River. they gather stones and they pile them together to forever memorialize that.

It can demonstrate a promise of God. It can be an image of building a life, building a house. Unfortunately, it can also mean stoning. Yes, yes. So are we gathering together to concentrate, to memorialize, to build, or are we gathering together to stone somebody? And I like it that she says, never knowing what they'll mean, you know. And obviously in Joshua 4, when the people of Israel build those stones together,

they don't know how they will memorialize through centuries. But the reader here, or the listener of the song, doesn't know what the stones are going to be for. And she points that out. She says some to throw. and some to make a diamond ring. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, then. So it's both. It's a little of both. Yeah. Yeah, she, I mean, again, there's a lot of irony here. So a juxtaposition of meaning. So, yeah, it could have been that they would have built a real marriage. It could have been that they would have consecrated a great relationship,

but instead they wind up throwing stone. and breaking apart. You know I didn't want to have to haunt you, but what a ghostly scene. You wear the same jewels that I gave you as you bury me. So dramatic. I know. And so, you know, I wondered about this, Jules.

I don't get a clear sense of the antagonist in this narrative poem as a person, you know. And so I'm wondering, is this a record company? And I start doing the whole... Stop. Sorry, go ahead. That didn't really mean stop. Okay. Okay, sorry.

So, yeah, I mean, I know a lot of artists. And I should have said one of the things that I did read about Taylor Swift just a few months ago, is she bought all of her old songs? Yes. Okay. So, yeah, I wondered if there was some strife between her and maybe like a company. Because that's very typical with recording artists. So I was going to save this for the end.

Okay. But you guessed it. So we'll get into it. So this song is about the man who signed her originally at 16 or 15 or whatever. Oh, really? Wow. She made six albums with him. Okay.

And that was what her original contract was for. And as is normal in the record industry, she owned you know, she writes her songs so she owns the songwriting credits and all of that, but the record label owns the master recordings. Oh. Oh. That's...

And she wants to own her own masters. Okay. And she went to this man, Scott Borchetta. We don't like him anymore. No. Spoiler. Yeah.

And she said, let me buy my masters from you. Just let me buy them outright. And he said, no. you can earn them back one album at a time. So basically you've made six records for us. So on your seventh record, you can own your first record, your first masters. On your eighth, you can own your second.

Like he was going to make her earn them back. And she said, no. So I'm sorry, wait. So part of this bargain is she has to make another record for him. And then she gets one back. So she needs. So she needed to make six more records with him to own her masters. Okay.

Let's gather some stones. Yeah. So she said, I'm not going to do that. So she signed with a different label and told us in a letter, like, this is not how we wanted this to go. I wanted to stay there forever. I wanted to just be able to own my work that I've written about my own life. And they wouldn't let me buy them.

And so I made the difficult decision to leave my past behind. and I'm not going to own those. Dead to me. Yes. So then it gets more dramatic because he then goes, Scott Borchetta then goes and sells off all of the masters

to someone else. Specifically a man named Scooter Braun who... No man should have the name Scooter. Agreed. And Scooter Braun was a you know, like a talent manager. He managed Justin Bieber, Ariana Grande.

He was, like, kind of heavily involved in, do you know anything about Taylor and Kanye West feud? Oh, no. Oh, well, I'm sorry, you know what? Maybe I know more about Taylor than I thought they did. Yes, was he the one who got up on the stage and said, you know, oh, someone else should have won this award? Yes, Beyonce, yeah.

Oh, Beyonce, okay. So he did that, and then they, like, feuded for a bet, you know, yeah, exactly. Exactly. The singly. I mean, I'm not entirely. You know stuff. So then there was a feud for many years. Kanye claimed he made Taylor famous because of that.

Long story. Scooter Braun was kind of involved in taunting Taylor with Kanye and Justin Bieber and stuff. So she like hates Scooter Braun. And now all of a sudden, Scooter Braun owns her life's work. which is why she said I'm going to re-record my first six albums and they're going to

I'm going to own those they're going to be called Taylor's versions and I'm going to devalue all the original work by creating new so Scooter Braun can't have isn't going to make money off me anymore but we all know this has a happy ending she was finally able to buy them back

she's like poor now I think because she spent like reportedly $360 million on owning her masters. But yes, I'm so impressed that you got that from this. But yeah. It's in my notes. Oh, my gosh.

No, I mean, I said LAC's personal address. We don't know the antagonist. Is it a character? Yeah. So this song, I think, is just about that fight about her wanting to stay with this original record label for the rest of her career. but she wanted it in a way that felt fair to her, and he wouldn't give it to her.

Interesting. Okay, well, we're done here. Thank you for listening. Watch for number two. Wait, I got more stuff. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, let's keep going. Okay. Well, that's really interesting.

I'm very proud of myself. I am too. I'm sorry I yelled stop at you. Yeah, no, I literally wrote that it felt like it lacked that personal address. Yeah. So I wondered about the nature of the antagonist. But she clearly doesn't like the situation because she's gathering those stones. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, okay. I actually wrote, it felt a little like there's a short story by a French author named Gautierre. And the story is La Mort Amourous. Okay. So it's Amarous. I know Mort.

Yeah. So the death. So it's a story about a woman who, vaulted in love with a priest who takes orders and she ultimately turns out to be a vampire sucking at him in order to sustain her life. And Romuald is his name and her name is Claremonde. Okay. Yeah.

So I don't know. I was wondering if that had any folktale folklore crossover. Could? Yeah, I mean, I guess I try to make those connections like Vladimir Pompinstit. Thompson and people like that who put those things together. I also have, oh, you know, if you've never seen, okay, I've got another book to tout. Marina Warner is wonderful when she writes about fairy tales. And I'm heavily influenced by Marina Warner.

She's pretty great. This is from Bees to the Blonde on fairy tales and their teller. Love that title. Well, it's a lot about relationships between men and women. But the great Bible. of folklore is the uses of enchantment by Bruno Bettleheim, the meaning and importance of fairy tales. And this is a first edition in the original cover.

Oh, fancy. From when, from, like, how long was that? Oh, gosh, I don't remember when it was published. You're going to make me look it up. Yeah. Oh, it's 1975. Okay. Yeah.

So. And also all these, just to let everyone know, everything that you're mentioning. First edition. Nice. All of the books you're mentioning, all of the references, I will, if I can find them, I will link them in the notes of the show or wherever it makes sense to link them. So everybody can read along or learn new things about folklore. Yeah.

Thank you. I think it's great. And she may not know about the white lady folklore or about La Morda Marouz. But, you know, I think that it's interesting because even if, you know, even if you know, the author doesn't distinctly know the folk tale. Nevertheless, because they exist in culture and they surround us, you frequently feel them and it impels your writing. Right. You know, so I did like this idea that she's dead, but not dead yet.

You know, she's buried, but not buried yet. And that she's been cursed. She's in hell, but she's still coming back in almost a ghostly form, which is the bridge after the second chorus, right? She says, and I can go anywhere I want, anywhere I want, just not home. And you can aim for my heart, go for blood, but you would still miss me in your bones. You know, which is great. It made me think that, again, is what made me think of Gautier's work because she feels like a vampire going for blood.

And like a ghost, going anywhere she wants, you know, haunting him, even in his grave. in his bones. And I still talk to you when I'm screaming at the sky. So screaming is very typical of white lady folklore. You know, the white lady is frequently yells because she's angry about something. As a matter of fact, there's a whole series, again, in the Arm Thompson Index, about someone who lost something, a lady who lost something. So you may know the Lady of the Golden Arm.

There's an Italian story about a woman who lost her leg and people took the leg or took the artificial limb and they keep it for its intrinsic value and she haunts them at night and screams at them. Okay. Yeah. So I'm liking that this is a recording executive who has that valuable item. Yeah. He stole her leg. Yeah. So.

But it's her lullabies. Yeah, I know. Right. It's pretty great. Right. I still talk to you. My stolen lullabies. Yeah, when you can't sleep at night, you hear my stolen lullabies.

Oh, see, I had a little trouble with that line. Well, there you go. Now you're making sense. Yeah. I mean, I actually underline it. I said typical of white lady lore, but what are the lullabies? There's often a child involved in white lady lore, too. Her child is her music.

Her music. That's great. So good. Okay, the next section, I didn't have it myself to go with Grace, back to Grays. And so the battleships will sink beneath the waves. And I thought this was a clumsy line. Okay.

Forgive me, Taylor fans. You're allowed. But my first, I mean, so I've been looking at this poem for two days. And the whole first day I thought, man, I hate that line. Well, it just seemed like the battleship was this giant metallic thing. And it just felt clumsy. But then I began to take the word up. part and I thought well battle ship relationship okay okay okay so I began I wondered if she's thinking

about the word relationship and substitutes battle for battleship interesting and the relationship she had with in my first thinking of the person um sank beneath the waves and so maybe it does work okay like over the last day I've been persuaded really really convince yourself I've been She won't have for a while. But I'm kind of persuaded that the line works now. Okay. So. Yeah, because it could have been the relationship and now it's just turned into a fight.

Just turned into a battleship. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Obsessed. And so I like that.

And so, Taylor, if you're listening, if that's what you meant, you are just brilliant. And if it's not what you meant, no, who cares? It still kind of works as a poem, so you're okay. So she has to be killed, she has to be cursed. She is, you're tossing up Blaine, drunk on this pain. See, now you're changing my understanding for telling me it's a, like a recording executive, drunk on the pen. So he's having any great time knowing that she's upset about his possession of her discography. Yeah.

Yeah. And this line, cursing my name, wishing I stayed. you turned into your worst fears. That makes me think, this is digging too deep, but what that makes me think is that when they first started working together, he was very much like, I'm going to always do right by my artists.

Like I, you know, I want everything to be fair. I want contracts to make sense. I'm always going to value the artist's work over everything, blah, blah, blah. but now it feels like, to me, you turned into your worst fears. Like, he didn't want to be that, like, evil record executive that recording executive that we know. But then, like, here he is doing this to her. It's the same thing. And, you know, I've heard of artists re-recording their work so that previous owners can't use it.

Or it becomes secondary. Right. Yeah. I mean, that happened in the 60s, and it apparently happens again. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're at the end of the song. Yeah. You're tossing out blame, drunk on this pain.

Crossing out the good years. Yeah. So you're like... Yeah. So there they went. Yeah. We're done. We're never looking back. Wish and I stayed. And now look at how my tears ricochet onto you. Mm-hmm. A little vindictive, huh? Very vindictive. Very vindictive. Yeah. Okay. So what are your... So that blew my mind that you...

it shouldn't have, I know, because you're like good at this, but I believe my mind that you did figure that out. Does learning what it's actually about, does that make you like it more or less? Does it change your opinion, I guess I should say? You know, okay, so I'm going to use that old cliche. That's a good question. Well, it's a good question because, you know, when you think about literature, it should stand on its own. I mean, there's this world of literary critics called New Critics that say,

well, you should read the work on its own. You shouldn't worry about the author's biography. We don't know that things that happen in the author's life directly touches what the author wrote. You know, knowing that, and I think it's an assumption that that's what this is about. I mean, it changes the way I understand the poem a little bit, but no, I still think that it stands on its own as an interesting poem. I mean, my kind of summative remark was that this was a poem about the vindictiveness, a kind of vengeance, which is why it reminded me of the Lamorte Amaris, because she is angry that he chose God over her, right?

And so in this case, maybe the recording executive chose money over her. But it's also about the boundaries between life and death, you know, which is a timeless thematic investigation of what does it mean to live and die and how do we live and how do we die? And does our need for vengeance, vengeance carry on past death? Oh. It's also a... Ew. Yeah. It's also a tale of obsession.

And for me, obsession is one of the most typical of the themes that you'll find in folk tales. Okay. Okay. I mean, why is Rapunzel in a tower? Right? Because of the witch has to keep her. She wants, you know, she's obsessed with her. Right.

Why is Cinderella relegated to the cinders? She literally sleeps in an empty hearth with no fire. Why does her prince keep her shoe and is obsessed with finding her? Okay, okay. I know it's wacky, right? And the whole foot in a shoe thing is also a very sexual image that if there are any kids listening, that's not what these stories are about. Don't ruin Cinderella.

Yeah. And it also feels like Midas, you know, who obses. obsesses over gold and who loses the most precious thing in the world to him, his daughter, because he gets the golden touch, ultimately turns his own daughter into gold. You know, so that that obsession causes the death of that is most precious to him. So, on that note, I just want to say this, we'll get to this song eventually, but the second pandemic album, which Taylor calls folklore and Evermore is the second one, she calls them sister albums because they both came out in 2020.

On Evermore, there's a song called Champagne Problems. And one of the lines is, your might, so it's about her, like, the narrator turning down an engagement, like a proposal, saying no to a proposal. And she says, your Midas touch on the Chevy door.

Like you, which obviously there's more context around that, but she, that just, you saying that Midas was obsessed with gold, so much that he turned everything you loved into gold, and including his daughter, then this other song that I think also has folklore elements,

her talking about your Midas touch, like you were too obsessed and it ruined this. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, obsession has its own ricochet. Oh. I know, there you. Bringing it all together. Yes. Okay. So I want you to listen to it and also I want you to see the ERAs tour performance of it.

Oh, oh yeah. Cool, of course. It's very important. Okay. So also along with these, um, with everything getting shut down in 2020, she put out folklore, Evermore, and then Midnight's. There were no tours for them. So the ERA's tour came about because of that. She had so many albums to cover on her next tour. And so the ERAS tour was the first time we had seen her perform these live. And so it's very good. Okay.

She didn't make any COVID performances like small studio performances. Well, that's a lie. There is a movie called Folklore the Long Pond Sessions, where it's just her and her two collaborators in a studio. And they just played the album front to back and talked about it a little bit. Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah, I followed some of my favorite recording. artists, you know, online, and they had those little small sessions.

Matter of fact, outdoors often. Yeah, so fun. I love those. I love an acoustic set like that. Okay, let's listen to the song first, and then we'll talk about your overall grades and all of that. Okay, I have not heard this song, so I'm anxious to hear. Okay.

Do you want to just watch the performance, or do you want to hear the album version and then the performance? That's your preference. I don't know. Okay. let's listen. We'll watch the lyric video and then we'll watch the performance. So we won't be able to play all of this on the podcast, so I'll cut out probably most of this, but we'll get your reaction at the end.

Okay. Do you have thoughts about that? Okay, so yeah, I mean, it was fun to hear her sing it. Yeah. I liked the way she stressed the jewels that I gave you. You know, I said before that obsession is part of the song. song is about it and certainly a frequent theme in folk tales. So the object and possessing the object are obviously connected. You know, and the jewels, she seemed to hit very hard.

Yeah. I really like the I'm screaming at the sky. You know, again, it's like that band she cry, you know, the harbager of death. That's in Irish folklore. That's what a band she is. An old lady who cries out. And she does seem to cry out That's pretty cool

Yeah And then when she talks about her stolen lullaby She kind of floats off into this musical turn Like oh I got much more than that buddy You know I thought that was fun So fun I'm still not sold on the battleship Okay

But I'm trying to make it work It's okay You're not you don't have to like every single word Okay Okay so now let's watch the Ares tour Performance So the way that she, this doesn't really matter for the context, but she went through era by era. So they weren't mixed up.

So she went, she did all her songs from Lover and then went into a different album, Fearless, and then went into a different album. So this is the folklore section. But I've got it stopped right where you can watch just this song. A white lady. What are your thoughts on the performance? Well, you know, when she appears in white, you know, I'm back to my whole white lady interpretation. The woman in white folklore is, for me, very haunting. And you know what's interesting about it, too, is in so many of the stories, the woman, well, dies, or she becomes a wraith or a vampire.

But she's always lost something. Like she's lost her leg. She's lost her golden arm. She's lost her child. Sometimes it's stolen by a husband or a lover. Sometimes it's killed by a husband or a lover. And she haunts the lover because she's in search of the lost child. And so, you know, I guess the stolen lullabies.

Yeah. I thought in the context of the woman in white, folk tales that she was looking for a child, baby. She's looking for her songs. Literal lullabies. Yeah. But it works so well with the white lady folklore element. I wonder if she knows about this.

I mean, you're convincing me that she does because this all just kind of goes. It all kind of works. I like the performance too because she starts, you know, bent over and she rises up out of a grave, out of a would be great. It's very like funereal with them walking behind her. Surrounded by shadows. Yeah. So good.

It is fun. Yeah. It's fun to speculate on what she might know, you know, in writing new songs. Yeah. Okay. Let's give it some grades. Okay. So we have a grading rubric that has some criteria.

So it's five different criteria. Lyrical strength, narrative and structure. production and atmosphere, lore and literary references, and emotional impact. So, for lyrical strength, I know you don't like battleships, but otherwise. No, I didn't. But otherwise, I thought it was very good. I liked the hell imagery, the fire imagery early. I like the haunting imagery later.

So I'm going to say a 94. Okay. Honestly, I think, like, I love this song, but I think you've made me like it even more. Okay. You know, I was going to ask you what you love about her. Yeah, I mean, that could be a whole discussion. Maybe so.

But, you know, we've grown up together, her and I. And she, the thing she writes about, I obviously do not have a situation in my life that relates to losing, millions of dollars worth of original recordings or my original life's work. But somehow this song still just like, it feels, I mean, like you're saying, like it's any kind of loss, you know, and being mad at somebody over a loss. And so the songs that she writes are so specific, but they're also somehow so universal. And it's just amazing to me.

It's about that cycle of possession and obsession. It's very cool. Yeah. So, but, I mean, there's a lot of things. I'll get into that over time. Okay. Okay. Narrative and structure.

You know, I mean, I'm very pleased that I noticed the lack of personal address. Yeah, me too. But, and so it must be, it must be fairly strong and intentional in the work. So I'm going to push that up to a solid 95, a mid-range A, sure. All right. Yeah. Production and atmosphere. Now, we're talking about the song or what I saw?

I loved, I had no idea I was going to like the heiastor version. Yeah, it's, it really, really makes it. I think we can, we can, we can talk about, we can grade it on the performance. You saw the heiastor? Yes, twice. Well, of course. Obviously. So did your daughter and your granddaughter.

It's true. Yeah. I know. I'm surrounded by Swiftie. You are. Yeah. So I guess I'm going to go with a solid 95. there. I thought it was really good.

Okay. Lur and literary references. Okay. So, yeah, I did feel the screaming banshee, and I did feel the white lady searching for her stolen lullaby, her lost child. The lost child is such

an archetype in these stories. So I'm going to say she hit this one dead on. What? 96. Okay. I thought you were going to give her 100. and emotional impact. Do you feel it?

You know. When you put your, when you put your inner teen girl on. Yeah, when I put my 15-year-old girl on. Yeah, I think so. I think maybe not as much as you. Maybe 91. Okay. Yeah, but still good.

Okay, so that averages gives us, oh, wrong one. 94. Wow. Okay, solid A. That's a good gray. Taylor, good job. She's a genius. So,

I think do you have any final thoughts on it? I think that's kind of it. No, thanks for putting up with my throwing you morphology of the folk tale. Of course. Of course. Talking about the Arn-Thompson Index and that kind of thing. Yeah, I'll link all those. So I'll have to Google them for that.

So then I'll learn more. I've actually had a third collaborator, so Arne Thompson, maybe Johnson, I can't remember, but you'll find that. I'll find it. We'll figure it out. Okay. So we have a, we are, we have a new Instagram account and a new TikTok account that you can follow to stay up on all the new episodes. Cool. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and all of those places that you get your podcasts.

And also on YouTube. So wherever you are, those are all at Swifty and Scholar Pod. I will link that in the show notes. And if you want to follow me anywhere, I'm at Angela Wyatt on Instagram. And you can find Uncle Jerry at his house because he does not participate in social media. Not so much. Okay. So we will be back with another song next week.

Thank you so much. This is very fun. Thank you, Angela. Okay, see you. Bye.