The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Monstrous Femininity of Who's Afraid of Little Old Me?

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Uncle Jerry and Angela tackle Taylor Swift’s ‘Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?’ in the second episode of The Swiftie and The Scholar. Uncle Jerry talks about his journey from hate to appreciation of this track, he introduces the concept of Monstrous Femininity, and they talk about the cultural image of the witch throughout history. Angela gives a (not so) brief look into her role as a Swiftie, and they watch and discuss both the lyric video and the Eras Tour performance of this TTPD track.Works Cited:Allen Ginsberg – HowlThomas ChattertonChatterton – Painting by Henry WallisDylan Thomas – Do Not Go Gentle into That Good NightBohemian CoffeeKurt Vonnegut, Jr.Snoweylily – Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?To Kill a Mockingbird – Harper Lee – Affiliate LinkThe Monstrous-Feminine – Barbara Creed – Affiliate LinkWho’s Afraid of Little Old Me? – Official Lyric VideoWAOLOM Performance – Eras Tour – 5/9/2024Sounds Like a Cult – The Cult of Taylor Swift

Okay. Mama, ma, ma, mamma. Just getting in the Swifty zone, you know? I'll never leave the Swifty zone. I'm not in the Swifty zone. Never? Do you never leave the Swifty zone? I have to admit, maybe I was getting in the Swifty's Zone.

Okay, ready? Welcome to the Swifty and the Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDow, Swifty. And I am Dr. Jerry Coats, the scholar. Hello.

How are you today, Angela? I'm good. How are you, Uncle Jerry? I'm swell. Are you excited to be here? I'm very excited to be here. Yes, I have to admit, I'm excited to talk about this song. That makes me feel excited because I was worried that we were going to have to argue on this one.

Not really. You're allowed to have your own opinion. Oh, thank you. Okay, good. Today, before we get into this song, you have asked me a couple of times, why do you like Taylor? Why are you a Swifty? A big why, yes. And that feels like a giant question to me.

And so last night I wrote an essay and today I will be reading that. No, I'm just kidding. Thank goodness. You escaped. But I was, I did kind of spend a little time last night. Why am I a Swifty? Like, what brought me here? Because it's just been a part of my life for so long.

And so I thought back and we have to go back to our MySpace days. Do you remember MySpace? I do. I'm sure you didn't have a MySpace. Do not. It's not just because I'm old. I was an active teacher, Dean of Libera Lards, and I did start a, you know, to reach out into social media. and then I got inundated by hundreds of students, and I said, okay, no.

Yeah, we need boundaries. Yeah, little space. Yeah. MySpace was a big thing when I was like a freshman in college. That's kind of, I think, when we all signed up and we all had our little pages, and they played, you could have a song on your MySpace page. So this was like 2005, 2006. And one of my friends' friends, friends,

had a song by some girl, like she sounded so young, but named Taylor Swift on her MySpace profile. And the song was called Tim McGraw. And it somehow just instantly hooked me. I was like, who is this? What, where has she come from? And so at this point, Taylor had one album out. Her first single was called Tim McGraw.

When you think Tim McGraw, I hope you think of me. Okay, yes. From now on. Yeah. And, yeah, she kind of just hooked me then. And she was, you know, this like 16-year-old girl. I think I was 19 at the time. And she was a country singer.

And I was, you know, I came from small town, Texas and went to school in a little bit bigger, small-town Texas. And we were country music fans. And there was no one else in country music at this time. There was no one her age. There was no one writing songs like she was writing them. And she also just seemed like this like normal teen girl that like at any moment you could like become her best friend. Like she was just a normal girl. She was she also was posting on her MySpace all the time at this time.

She had kind of like a grassroots like I have a new song but like I'm still just a high school girl talking about like boys on my MySpace. you know and I don't know that she knew it at the time if she did she's smarter than any of us I've ever given her credit for but she kind of you know she was so like available and she was online and she would reply to your comments and she posted like she was on tour and she would post like tour tour vlogs on YouTube you know just like behind the scenes showing her hanging out and all these places with her band and like traveling the world and um it was she was just very available in ways that um no one else seemed to be you also like you could have given me a call or something she also just was um you could meet her very easily

so um in the summer of 2008 like probably like a year and a half after i had discovered her she was coming to town opening for rascal flats she was coming to down And it was at, um, at Fair Park. Okay. Oh, wow, that's crazy. Yeah, so it's called something different than now. I've actually seen Rascal Flats, so. At Dosekis at, at Fair Park?

No. Okay, I was like, we were there at the same time. Oh, no. So I went to see her open, you know, she had one album. She played probably four or five songs. I was with my friend Cindy. And, um, she was done. I only sort of cared about Rascal Flats.

and I was like, I think we have to go find her. And Cindy was like, no, we can't do that. And I was like, no, I think we can. Like, I see people online always posting pictures of posing the Taylor. And I was like, we can find her. So we like, it's an outdoor venue. And so we like walked around the outside to where we could see like some tour buses. And I like saw a couple members of her band, two of whom are still in her band to this day.

And we like talked to them for a second. And then a guy came out. and said okay Taylor's in she was in her tour bus that was like right next to us and they said if you like are quiet and chill and just like give her a minute she's in there like meeting with family that's in town she'll come out and take pictures with everyone so i like i have met taylor oh you really have yeah let me find the picture i'll show you and then um i'll put it up on the screen for everyone else the way that she made herself so available and seem like we were all just like friends, like, is what created this like parisocial

army of what would later become known as Swifties. And how she has all of these fans that are like ride or die to this day. Wow. You know? And so, and then like, you know, there was only one album to pour over at that time. And so there's, you know, there's only like 12 songs or something or 13 maybe. And so you're scouring the internet and there was like unreleased songs that you, I was, I was would listen to terrible, terrible quality, like, you know, unreleased demos. And then there was like a video of her playing this song in her tour bus for just a couple of fans. And it was a song called Fearless. And it was this terrible quality.

And I loved it so much. I listened to it all the time. And then a few months later, she announced that her second album was coming out and it would be called Fearless. And so it was just very fun. She also put her first, I think, five albums. Her in the liner notes of the CD, it would have all the lyrics in it, you know, like song by song. And then they were all in lowercase,

but there would be random capitalized letters throughout. And there was like a secret message for every song. Oh, secret messages. And, yeah, so it would be like, you know, who this song was about, or like maybe, maybe there would be a name in there or like something that, like a place or something. And so it was, it was her being like, I'm going to tell you more about who these songs are about or what these songs were about. And so it was just kind of pulling you in in a way that, again, no one else was doing at that time.

And she was kind of, I mean, that's just how she got me and I've stuck around this whole time. And how long has that been? Like 19 years. Ah, okay. Okay. Exactly half my life. Yeah. So my whole adult life, me and Taylor, have been besties.

Well, yeah. Actually, I mean, that makes sense to me because, you know, when you meet someone, there's a personal connection. And yes, I've met some singers before, and yeah, I form a personal connection. I mean, you know, my wife and I went to London a year and a half ago, just. to meet a couple of performers we like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a personal connection. Yeah. And I don't know why I'm still here, but I'm having a great time with it. Okay. But yeah, so there's just always been little things that she does like that that I think add to like her genius of creating people that will do whatever they, whatever she says, basically. You know, it's a problem. It's a little culty, but that's not, it's not harmful, so we were fine with it. Yeah.

There is this podcast called, oh my gosh, I can't think of what it's called right now, but it's like, am I in a cult or something like that? And they talk about all these different groups. And at the end, the hosts decide, like, is this culty? And if so, is it harmful or not? and they actually did do one on Swifties, and they did decide that it was a cult, but it's like fine. Like, it's not a harmful cold. It's not a one that you should try to get out of.

So I'm sticking around. Okay. Well, so there's a possibility that I could become, like, infected. Uh-huh. All right. I'd be pretty close to it now. Okay. All right.

So there we go. Well, thank you. Yeah. I told Angela earlier, She lent me this album, not to listen to, but for inspiration, and it sat on my desk, and Taylor Swift has been staring at me all week. And I find her vaguely frightening. You know, so I don't know if I'm joining the cult yet or not, but.

So you're at the scared point of joining the cult? A little bit, yeah. The terror part? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So on that note, today we're going to get into Who's Afraid of Little Old Me. Okay.

This song is from The Tortured Post. It's department, which came out last year, exactly a week before my wedding, which felt like a really nice present for me personally. It was because of your personal connection. Uh-huh. See, she's what she does. She does such nice things for us. She said, here's a wedding president, Angela.

Here's 31 new songs. So this song was self-written by Taylor Swift. We actually do have the demo version of this that she sent over to Jack Antonoff, who we have talked about and who produced this album or this song. We do have the demo version. She released that and I do have a little blurb of what she had to say about this song as well. Oh, okay. But I think we'll go through that later.

This song also, so she put out this album in the middle of the ERA's tour, which was already each show was like three hours and 15 minutes or something. and for the European dates halfway through the tour, she, after this album came out, she added a tortured poet's set to the ERAs tour. And this song did make the cut. So we do have some ERA's tour performance of this song as well. Okay. If that's interesting.

Oh, I'm excited. Okay, so let's get into it. Okay, so first I have my confession. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, please. So Angela sends me, you know, one or two of these poems, these songs a week. And I take two days or so. I read through them.

I think about them. I analyze them as a literary critic might. Or I do kind of a historic analysis of it sometimes. What I don't do is I don't look up anything. I just use my own personal resources and thinking about them. and I complained to Angela when she sent me this one that it just felt like a superstar whining. And I set it aside for a few days,

and when I came back to it, I realized that I had given way to my, you know, masculine, dominant culture and was not reading it as a literary critic should or might. And now I find it absolutely fascinating. So I'm just going to say, We love that. Yeah. Personally, I've done a huge turnaround on the song after I started really thinking about it.

Okay, so the title of the album is Tortured Poets Department. Yes. There are a lot of tortured poets. Yes. You know, when I saw the title, I immediately, like, names started filling my head. Sylvia Plath, you know, very unfortunately and sadly put her head in an oven and killed herself. some poets are tortured by themselves, by others, by culture. Alan Ginsberg, one of my favorite poets, wrote a great poem titled Howl,

which is his sort of complaint against the world. And Ginsburg was hospitalized, you know, treated for his insanity. He was also by and ultimately expressed being gay and a little bit tortured for that. Okay. You know, there have been a lot of tortured poets. I did pull up a picture of one in particular that's kind of dramatic. I really like. So Thomas Chatterton was a late 18th century poet and really wanted to be, wanted to be friends of other poets, wanted to be famous.

And so he wrote some poetry and claimed that he found medieval manuscripts. and so he became noted for the guy who found the medieval manuscripts and then it turned out that he actually had written the poetry. Oh. Yeah. A scammer. A scammer. So he took Loudounam and died and there's a very famous painting of him and this is the painting of

him. So you can look up Thomas Chatterton and here he is, dad reclining on his couch, very sad stuff. Who painted that? Oh, you know, I should know that. One of the pre-Raphaelites, Henry, I can't remember. Okay, we'll figure it out when I find the links. There you go. So there are a lot of tortured poets, you know.

Dylan Thomas nearly drank himself to death. Quick note on Dylan Thomas. Okay. This album, The Tortured Poets Department, has a song titled The Tortured Poets Department. And she says in that song, you're not Dylan Thomas. I'm not Patty Smith. Okay. Very interesting.

in Chelsea Hotel. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, Dylan Thomas is great. I was like crossing my fingers that you would mention one of those. Oh, really?

That's great. Well, you know, he's got that, I mean, Tilla Thomas wrote a ton of great stuff, but, you know, maybe the most famous is, do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Yeah.

And when I went to San Francisco, I went to the City Lights bookstore, owned by Lawrence Ferlingetti, one of the beat poets. And I went across the street to the bar where he and Dylan Thomas and Jack Kerouac used to sit around and drink Bohemian coffee. So I ordered a Bohemian coffee and channeled Dylan. What's a bohemian coffee? It's coffee with amarado and cream and I think bourbon, but I'm not sure. That sounds delightful. I had two of them.

and it was pretty dizzy when I walked out. So, okay, so there are a lot of tortured poets. I think that she's prefiguring herself as one of them. Certainly she seems tortured in this particular poem. So one of the reasons why I initially didn't care for it is, you know, just the claimant of being tortured is a little bit difficult. Oh, I'm so rich and famous. I'm tortured, you know.

But as I got into it, I started reading it more as a feminist critic and trying to understand her confessionalist style. Okay. There are so many notes on this page. Yes, I run my copy and I write notes. And so, yes, I've got a lot of notes. So she's tortured. She's underscoring the idea that writers often suffer, right? Especially good writers, you know, are worried about writing well.

I'll never forget I attended a lecture by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Who wrote Slaughterhouse Five, Cat's Cradle. I'm a huge fan of Kurt Vonnegut. Unfortunately, he's dead. Yeah. I still like reading his book. And he said something really interesting once. He was asked a question in the Q&A,

how do you become a great writer today? And he broke into writing in serial magazines, So he would send in short stories to magazines. Oh, cool. Okay. Well, people can't do that anymore. Yeah, no, not really. He suggested one way is not to be an English major, right?

Because he got his degree in chemical engineering, I think, from University of Chicago. Okay. He said if you're an English major, you're so inundated with all these great writers that you're unable to express your own greatness. You're unable to find your own voice. Yeah, that makes sense. And so you're tortured. Yeah. To me that's...

Like, I'm not good. I'll never be as good as these people. I'm not a real writer. I'll never be a Shakespeare. I'll never be a Keats. So, yeah, I think that's really an interesting perspective. Okay, the title of the song, Who's Afraid a Little Old Me? Immediately I thought of Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf,

kind of a cliche, might put it in the genre of folk tales and folk. Okay, yeah, yeah. And there are some of that, some imagery with witches involved. I also thought of the play by Edward Alby, who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. Yeah, that's where my brain went, but I don't even know what goes on in that play. But I know that title, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, a very famous version of it with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, I think.

There's another song where she compares herself to Elizabeth Taylor. So many connections. The Burton to this Taylor, she says. Oh, really? Oh. Okay. Okay. And that's why you're the Swifty. Okay. So I also have to admit that I am very interested as a pop culturalist. Yes.

In fan fiction. Okay. Yes. Okay. So I don't know if you know Snowy Lily. So Snowy Lily is a fan fiction writer. And one of the things she's written is a Harry Potter fan fiction work. And the title is Who's Afraid of Little Old Me? Oh, okay. Right.

So I wondered if Taylor Swift knew anything about Snowy Lilly and if she knew or if she was a Harry Potter fan and if there was a connection. Yeah, I mean, she's a millennial. She's a Harry Potter fan, you know. Of course. That was our whole personality for a while. It's true everyone had to have a wand or something. There may be one on my shelf.

We know what house we're in. That's right. You know. Yes. I'm not a question. Riffindor. I mean, any house that has Ron Weasley in it, uh-uh. Ouch. Okay, verse one.

Yes. The who's who, of course, referencing any who's who list, right? Of whose that is poised for the attack. So you immediately get this tension, this sense of threat. I also like the internal rhyme between that and attack, right? The assonance. A sounds, kind of unifies the line. It's nice stuff.

As a poet, I would say she's doing a nice job. But my bare hands pave their paths. You don't get to tell me about sad. So I thought she was being a little petulant with the last line. You'll get to tell me about sad. But I did like with my bare hands because when I read it several times, I realized bare hands links with the animal image.

that we see later. Oh, okay. So I do like the unity in the poem, I'm going to say right off. Okay. You know, she talks about a circus and then she talks about animals or being an animal. Snarling. Snarling. And so the bare hands works with that.

You know, animals have only their bodies as their weapons. So I really like that. It unifies the poem from the very beginning. Can we talk about the who's who of who's that? Oh, sure. I just, this, this feels so tailored to me, this little weird figure of speech that she's doing. Because like the who's who is like, okay, so you're the elite, you're the, you're the cream of the crop, you know, the who's who. But of who's that is like, so you're the cream of the crop of people that we don't even know who you are.

Right, of what? So you're the best of the nobodies. And so I don't know specifically who she's talking about. right here if this is like about fans or media or society or the music industry i don't know but i love that right that who's who of who's that like what an insane thing to write down yeah it's it's an interesting subtle attack on someone who's going to attack her uh-huh yeah i thought that was fun yeah um okay if you want to meet dad you should have said again we go to the internal rhyme that's around the comma

sasura. Yes, we love the syshaas. We do, she does. Nothing makes me feel more alive. So there are no threats that dissuade her from her work, right? Yeah. And then we go over the chorus. And we get, I love the word leap.

I think it's a really well-chosen insertion to the line because so I leap from the gallows. So she's jumping down, but Leap has that animal imagery again. Okay, okay, yes. Right. So she's anxious to get down from the gallows, but also anxious in an animistic way, animalistic way. And I levitate down your street. Okay, so she's a witch.

She's a wraith. Yes. Right. So she's some kind of undead. She's some kind of ghost, some kind of others. And you crash the party like a record scratch. as I screen. I love the record scratch.

It's irritating, right? If you've got an LP that's scratched, it's always irritating when you get across that. If it's scratched, it doesn't work, goes well with scream. It's discordant, right? A scratch brings discordance to the album, which does beg the question.

Here's your interesting trivia question for the week. Yes. On average, on an LP album, how many grooves are on one side of an average LP album. How many grooves? Wouldn't it just be one groove? That's very good. Like it's continuous, right?

The answer is one groove. Oh man, I'm a genius. You can't stop me. I'm so glad. Usually people who are all the room. Yeah, this one groove. If there were more grooves, then you couldn't actually. It wouldn't keep going.

You're right. Yeah. Okay, I want to talk about the, the moment that I heard this, this line. So I leap from the gallows and I levitate down your street. Part of what we were talking about earlier, being a Swifty,

part of that for me is the album releases are like a holiday. So in central time where we live, the albums come out at 11 p.m. because they come out 12 o'clock, midnight, on the East Coast. So we get them at 11 p.m. Wait, let me write that down.

Yeah. And this is like appointment listening for me, I end up staying up all night and having to go to work the next day. It's not great. It's a cult. Yes. And so when this

one came out, I was watching on our TV on Apple Music because I need to listen with lyrics because the lyrics are what I care about and so I have the lyrics up. Usually you can get them on Apple Music or

Spotify pretty quickly. And so it's 11 p.m. I start pretty quickly going through the album in order. And so I'm laying in bed for tortured poets because I'm old now and I'm tired. So I think Chase made it through approximately four songs before he fell asleep. So I'm just alone watching on the TV as the lyrics scroll by. And this, so I leap from the gallows and I levitate down your street. like, I still remember exactly me picturing.

Like, I'm picturing like Salem Witch Trials. She's in gallows. And she's like, I swear I'm not a witch, you know, but they're going to, they're going to kill me anyway. And she's like, actually, I am a witch. And she just like, jump, somehow jumps out of these gallows. And it's just like floating down a street. Right.

And I picture that every time still that I listen to this song. and I just find it so, I find it, I just think it's so good. And I think that's probably a pretty common, um, a pretty common, like,

take to have that this, this, this, this just feels so tailor this song. It feels like nobody else could have written this song, except, and nobody should try to, like,

it just feels very tailored to me and it gets me very excited. So when you first, were like, I'm not feeling it. I was like, oh, dear God, this podcast is going to be a disaster. No, page two has even more. Oh, my gosh, so much writing. Okay, sorry, go ahead. I just love that line so much and that visual that she gives us.

Okay, so I'm going to say that I really like it too. Okay, great. I like the image. The imagery is terrific. Again, you know, she's consistent with it throughout the song. I think it's lovely work. And I really want to talk about being a witch. Okay.

Maybe at the end. Okay. Because we get, we have a lot more of that. Yes, yes. So she screams. Again, screaming would be concordant with being a witch, being a ban she, being some kind of wraith. And then she asks the question, who's afraid of little old me? You should be.

Yeah. Right. So she's unabashedly vengeful. It's like she embraces being, like you said. She said, well, screw it. Yeah, I am a witch. I am a witch. Here it comes.

And then she goes into the verse and she talks about a scandal being contained. Well, I have to admit, I wanted to connect that to some event in her life, but I don't like biographical criticism. Okay. I'm trying to work just inside the poem itself, right? So I don't know what scandal it is. I don't know enough to speculate about her life. The bullet had just graced her. So there was some kind of scandal that they managed to sidestep.

And at all costs, she kept her good name. Well, good name is kind of cliche. What I like is the use of the word costs at all costs, right? So you think about cost as being cost to a reputation, but also cost has a monetary feel to it. In other words, she's being handled. She's being driven by, you know, a record company, executive, someone, a manager. And their bottom line isn't her welfare.

It's money in the bag. Actual money, yes. So because of the costs, you have to protect her good main. Name, you don't get to tell me you feel bad. They don't care about her. I mean, they just, what they care about is a cost, right? So, yeah, I liked it. Again, nice unity in the verse.

Is it a wonder I broke? Okay. So, you know, there are two meanings to break. One of them can mean I was broken, right? You know, back to being tortured. Yes. But the other one is to break away, to break and run. Okay.

Right. Is there any reason why I broke from this cutesy norm you want to put me into? And I embraced full witchier. Yeah. Yeah, I love that Because she's and isn't a wonder I broke, I broke from those gallows And levitated away

And she says let's hear one more joke So broken joke Again, she's consistent as a poet Because she's got this internal rhyme thing going You know, right from the very first verse With that attack You know And so here we are with broken joke

You know, nice work You know broke Does she go crazy? Does she break from social norms? Which is something I really want to talk about. Yeah. Social norms or is she just breaking from what society is wanting specifically from her? Right. Her being this like perfect.

So it all keeps coming back to what I was saying earlier about why I became a Swifty. When she was that young girl, she was very much. is she has the cleanest image. You know, there's no cussing. There's no, like, scandalous clothing. You know, she's very covered up. She's very innocent in those, I would say, her first, like, three or four albums. Like, it's all very much, like, I'm the good girl.

She's the good girl. And as she grew up, which we see a lot from, I think, from female stars across industries, as you grow up, the public doesn't want to let you grow up and become more adult in the things that you're talking about and making art about. And, yeah, so I think it just all kind of, it is like, I think, breaking from what people, what even, like, her fans, like, want from her as well.

Sorry, you just made me remember Madonna in her pointy bra. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then we could all just laugh until I cry.

So we, you know, they used the corporate pronoun, the plural pronoun, but then she says till I cry. So, you know, oh, it's just a joke. But things said in jest really do hurt. And I think I wondered if this is one of the reasons why it's relevant to her fans in particular. you know, I think we've all experienced that, those moments when someone says something that they say, oh, it was just a joke, but it wasn't. Yeah, you're not joking. Or even if it was a joke, yeah. Yeah, thank you very much.

You still hurt me a great deal. Right. Right. So, again, like the line. Then we have the chorus. So we go back to the gallows, back to levitating, back to the scratching and the screaming. And then she says, I was tangy. I was gentle till the circus life made me mean.

So again, we reintroduce that idea of animal imagery. A circus life made her mean. So she's been caged and abused. She's not running free like an animal would in the wild. Instead, she's like a tiger on display in a small cage. A tiger being forced to perform, you know, an animal who's, here's the crack of a whip in a circus environment. And I really, when I read the line, I thought about that cracking whip.

Interesting. Yeah. So, you know, I was nice until you did this to me. Thanks. And I think that this really is, again, another one of those really interesting moments where she draws her fans in or draws a reader in. So I shouldn't put it in terms. I think she's talking about herself and her professional life.

But I think that she's also talking about all women. I absolutely agree. Yeah, I think that all women can be tame until they get dropped into these cultural norms or they get pigeonholed or they get 20% less than men. Yeah. Or they take a shirt to the dry cleaner and they're charged 80 cents more because it's a blouse and not a shirt. Yeah. I think that that turns, that can turn a person mean. Yeah.

Yeah, this all feels very, like with the witchy imagery, like witchy imagery always feels like a substitute, like an allegory for all women. So I can't let it go without saying that I love the metaphor of the circus. So a metaphor, a comparison between two different things that simply stated, life is a circus. But when you extend a metaphor throughout a work that's called conceit. Okay. Okay. So what she's done is she's introduced a metaphor of the circus and then she extends it throughout the work so it becomes a conceit. And I think it works really well because if you think about what a circus is, a circus is entertainment.

All right. So yes, she's in the entertainment business. That's her whole world. Yeah. That's what she does. But a circus is also a kind of chaos. Uh-huh. I mean, you know, you see a tiny car drive out and then a dozen clowns get out of it.

You know, there's a huge parade. and all kinds of crazy things are happening. They're a trapeze artist and it looks like they're going to fall. In the last second they're caught, you know, when someone says, well, that was a real circus. Yeah. What they means is it was a real mess. It was a disaster, yeah. It was chaos.

Yeah. It was a disaster. Yeah. So I like it because on one hand, you get the entertainment image, but on the other hand, you get the chaotic image. So, again, nice work, Taylor. And they, and so the. ringmaster says, don't worry, folks, we took out all her teeth. Yes.

I love this line. I can't wait for you to hear how she sings this line. Yeah, it is so cruel. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's abusive. Yeah. And so is that what we do to women in our culture? Is that abusive? Is that what's been done to her?

Is that abusive? Yeah, that animal abuse is turned into real abuse for her. Okay. Yeah. And then she trails off is, you know, following up on the line, who's afraid little old me? Well, you should be. And then trails out repeating, you should be. So tell me everything is not about me.

But what if it is? They say, don't do it to hurt. Don't do it to hurt me, but what if they did? Right. So she's reiterating that idea is, oh, it was just a joke. It still sucked. Yeah. Yeah.

And this, so tell me everything is not about me. is so interesting to me because since this song came out in the year and a couple of months since it came out, I have seen, so I'm on Swifty Twitter. I know it's not called Twitter anymore, but. Who's no? Right. I know. So, but I feel like the Swifties who are tweeting about Taylor are always using this because there will be some, you know, you know. you know, some other artists released an album, and then their fans somehow are like, Taylor wishes,

or like Taylor would never, or Taylor could never, or whatever. And everyone, all these other, so speaking from the fandom world, all these other fandums are always comparing themselves to the Taylor, to Taylor's world. And every, I all, I've seen it probably 50 times, like something will have. happen and then someone will a Swifty on Twitter will reply so tell me everything is not about me because it's like yeah everyone does make everything about her

in this like pop music world and that it's like just go be your own go be your fan of whoever you're a fan of and like stop like leave it alone and it's like this weird comparison and it is of course always women women doing it

women artists that they're talking about right you know and And so it's like this same thing you're talking about. Like we have to, we have to compare and we have to say like this person is doing this, this woman is doing it better than this woman. So this woman is bad, you know, or like, you know, it just always comes back to how we tree women. Right. Yes. And I really, again, that's going to be a summative remark.

Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay.

So I want to snap or snarl, excuse me, snarl like an animal, more animalistic imagery, more circus connections, to show just how disturbed this has made me. So she's not in charge of her own world, right? This has made me. So everything acts upon her. And you see the word disturbed. Again, we're back to the torture. So there's a lot of unity that we're. rolls through this.

You wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me. Okay, so she matured in her craft, but in a crazy environment, right? So we're back to that circus, that chaotic image of what a circus can be. It's an asylum. She's in a crazy house. Maybe she's not crazy, but somehow or another craziness is entered into the picture. Yeah, I love this line When I first heard it

You wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me For me the asylum was The music industry But I think it's probably broader than that I think it's probably Like as time has gone on I'm like oh this is like You know

The entertainment industry This is the public eye This is Again I think we can take it even further And be like Just being a woman in this world. It is a cultural asylum.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And that again is what drew me into the poem finally. Yeah. You had to get to the bridge. I did. Because she loves a bridge. She loves a bridge.

And we do love the bridges. So all you kids can sneak into my house with all the cobwebs. Back to the witch imagery. Back to the idea that kids love to this. You know, it's like in to kill a mocking bird, when scout and her brother want to go see boo Radley. Yeah. You know, you want to sneak into that.

And I'm telling you there was an abandoned house near my neighborhood. I did the same thing. So people want to peer into her life. And there are cobwebs hanging there, you know, not just which images, but things that bind together this ghoulish imagery. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah.

Yeah. I'm always drunk on my own. tears. Isn't that what they all said? So does she get to characterize herself? No other people characterize her. Yeah. And people love to say that she loves to play the victim. She's drunk on her own

tears. You know, my first reading was that. Yeah. And then I began to read a little bit more and thought, oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think yeah, I have a lot of trouble with that

because I feel like these songs that she's writing, the song that she's written through her whole career, I feel like she's writing them in the moment when she is feeling the most. Just what she's feeling. The most, you know, no matter what else happens outside of her, this thing happened and I'm feeling this and I'm writing it down. And that I think helps her process.

I think that helps her move on. I think that helps her not be the victim. But then she releases these songs, you know, like two years later or something. And then people are like, God, won't she get over it? You know, like, can't she move on? Doesn't she ever get over anything? And it's like, well, I think she has. Well, I think we could argue some of those.

She hasn't. But which like, relatable is the same. I've never gotten over anything either, you know. But I do kind of feel like that is, it's a little unfair because, I think that the music is the way that she doesn't feel like the victim, because I feel like she's processing through it, and that's how she's healing. But then she releases it, and then it's like, okay, well, here it is all back again, you know. Okay, so I got one more thing for the dusty, the cobwebs in the house.

Another reason why I like it is because the kids, you know, those who peer at her life from the outside, those who want to sneak in and see what it's really like. Really what they're doing is they're looking at, I mean, if the house is her life, then the cobwebs are all those old tales of her past life. Yes. So they're looking at the dusty backstory of her existence. Which, you know, forgive us, Taylor, because I think some of what we're doing right now is. Yes, we are the kids in the cobwebs.

We are. We're peering into the dusty back. story of her life. And really, is that her music? You know, or can we just leave her alone and let her enjoy those memories and move on with the song? Yeah.

And then she's litigious, you know. They say, I'll sue you if you step on my lawn, right? So, you know, shaking her fist at the kids. But she doesn't do that. I mean, it's another one of those stories people tell about it. Okay. I'm figuring.

I'm wretched, I'm wrong, put narcotics into all my songs. It's very silly. No, but I mean, people have always said that about pop music. They have always made the claim that it's bad for our youth. You know, there were ministers in the 50s who said rock and roll would drive you to the devil. Yeah, satanic panic. That was probably about rock music, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And is that why you're still singing along? I mean Okay, so that's wonderfully ironic Yes So is it because I've got you a hook now You know Or is it because maybe it's just good music

Yeah Yeah But I think for me It's a little of both I was going to say that Yeah Is it an alcoholic's anonymous Or

Swiftie's anonymous Yeah maybe Okay Last chorus Yes And it's, we've heard this before, right? So I leave from the gallows, levitate down the street, crash the party, scratching, screaming, who's afraid of me? I was tame, right?

Gentle till the circus and life made me otherwise. She's had her teeth pulled. You should be afraid of me. Yes. Okay. So that's interesting to me because don't you worry, folks, we took out all of her teeth. So that means, like, she has no bite. She has no edge.

She can't talk back. She can't, you know. But then she's like, well, you should be. Right, yeah. So she immediately like. She still has a little bite. Yeah, counteracts that. And the outro, the other comes in and says, you lured me.

Because you lured me, you should be afraid. You hurt me, you should be afraid. You taught me. So again, all this is in the record industry. It's in culture. Maybe it's in her life. You caged me back to the animals. You call me crazy.

You know, what do I do? Is a witch crazy? I am what you... I am what I am, which is, of course, something Popeye says. I am what I am, and that's all what I am. That's called Popeye alien philosophy. I buy into it. Oh, my gosh.

Because you trained me. So who's afraid of me? Who's afraid of me? Who's afraid of me? Okay. Are you afraid of her? Well, this week with her staring at me from her album cover, I was a little bit afraid. But maybe I was forced into liking the song.

That's why I left the record here. Thank you. Okay, so I do want to talk holistically about the song. Okay. And what really drew me into it. Okay. So in literature, there are a number of different ways of reading. Okay, so there's reader response, new criticism, new historicism.

I tend to be a new historical reading, you know, who looks at culture and wants to see how cultural milieu impacted how a literary work was formed. Okay, yeah. There's queer theory, feminist theory. One of the things you might think about as a branch of feminist theory is monstrous femininity. Okay. Okay. So I did, when I was reading through this, I did think of monster theory and monstrous femininity. Okay. Okay. So what is that? Yeah. Please.

It's the idea that females are characterized as monstrous. Okay. Okay. If you think about literature in a broad sense, you know, you think about classical literature where you see the image of Medusa, right? She's this horrible creature with snakes for head, for air, can turn people into stone. If you read the Odyssey, come on, folks. Tell me you read the Odyssey. Odysseus is on his way home. The monsters he meets are women.

Okay, yeah. Sarsay seduces drugs, him, keeps him for nearly 10 years. He has to sail by giant monsters, Silla and Charybdis. They're both women. They're both female. You know, you think about the sphinx, the lamia, all kinds of different monsters in culture are female. If you ever read Beowulf, please, someone out there at Beowulf. You know, the female characters are not, they don't fulfill great roles.

Well, Theo is a serving girl who wears a lot of jewelry to show off her master's wealth and brings him beer. O'nella's queen is good in bed. She's sexually good. And then Grendel's mother is the great monster of the story. And we don't even know her name. She doesn't even have a name. She's effaced from the story in terms of her personality,

but she's this horrible devouring creature. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, in Anglo-Saxon culture, you get three choices. You can be a beer made. You can be good in bed or you can be a devouring monster. And, you know, I choose devouring monster. See, I'm kind of with Taylor Swift.

If I were in those roles, I would choose the devouring monster. So make me a monstrous feminine. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the list of the monstrous feminine is the witch. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So, you know, people, literature, culture has demonstrated witches as deviant, frequently cultural deviant but also sexually deviant they often look like men in the story of Rapunzel for example she captures a young woman puts her in a tower

this giant cylindrical thing that's clearly a phallic image It only has one hole right at the tip Interesting I need to draw you a picture No thank you I'm okay I'm okay I got it right here

Yeah, I mean, here we've got a witch, you know, capturing a young girl in this giant penis. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, witches are, demonstrate masculinity or at the very least, deviant female sexuality. Uh-huh. You know, they're, what do they ride? Oh, broom, which is also. They stick it between their legs. Yeah, kind of phallic.

Yeah. So, okay, so if witches have been demonized, you know, and there are a lot of great books you can read on the history of witchcraft, especially its rise in post-Reformation Europe and how it transitions over into America, you know, were any of the witches who were hanged for, were any of the women who were hanged for witchcraft in Salem witches? I don't know if they practiced witchcraft or not, but, you know, practitioners of witchcraft has often been seen as evil and socially deviant. Many of them were healers. Okay, many of them simply understood herbs or medicine, you know, in a way that others did not. And because they did, people saw them as magical practitioners. Interesting, yeah.

Right, so that happens a great deal. Yeah. Okay, so if you think about witches and witches. Modern culture. I think that with the rise of feminist culture, the role of the witch has changed or the image of the witch has changed. Yeah, I think so. Just noticed you have a moon and a star for a ring. I do.

Oh, scary. Witchy. So think about a modern witch, right? I mean, you've got bewitched. I mean, she's okay. Yeah. She's fun. She's a mom.

Sabrina the teenager. Sabrina the teenage witch. Have you ever seen Charmed? Yeah, I love Charmed, yeah. Okay, so you have three witches who work in concordance, one with another. So they create culture and unity and a household. And what's even more interesting for Charmed is they're powerful. Okay, so now witches demonstrate a level of feminine power.

I mean, think about the penultimate. How about Wicked? Mm-hmm. Very relevant right now. Right. You know, is she wicked? No. No. They made her, they perceived her as wicked. They perceived her as wicked. In their cultural, you know, ambiance, they made her wicked, right?

But, and so when I read this, I really, my understanding of it expanded around the notion of monstrous femininity and expanded around the role of women in our culture. and I think I pushed the meaning of the poem beyond the life of Taylor Swift and her own personal house and cobwebs to the lives of women and women's houses and cobwebs and witchery. Yeah. So, yeah, I have to say that I fell into that trap of my toxic masculinity the first time I read it and I thought, oh, gee, no. Why am I doing this? Right. But an interesting addition to that is that they have done that this woman is witchy and evil to Taylor. Oh, really?

Like recently. So she has a song on Evermore called Willow. And it's a little bit like witchy, like we're meeting in the woods, you know. But then at the Aeros Tour, which I don't I keep talking about, but there's a lot to pull from from the Aeros Tour. Um, the, um, the way that she performs, um, Willow with her dancers is that she, they all put on these cloaks, these like velvet cloaks. And they all have these orbs, these like lit up orange orbs. And they're like tossing them and they're in circles and they're, you know, they're like a coven around and, um, dancing around. And, um, it kind of blew up on. TikTok with people being like Taylor, like these, you know, these like evangelical Christians being like, Taylor is performing witchcraft on stage at the ERAs tour, like all of you that are going, you know, she's summoning demons and, you know, it got really insane.

Yeah, I'd like to see that all summoning demons. Yeah. And so like we have moved past, like I think, I feel like we have moved the image of the witch forward as we've gone as time has gone on but there's still plenty of people holding on to right the evil witch yeah yeah I mean I love it that she embraced it yeah you know you know that's a role you want me to take all right yeah yeah what got it yeah I love that monstrous feminine femininity I love that yeah interesting we're gonna hear the song yes okay so I've never heard the song so

So after applying that feminist theory, I kind of got anxious to hear it. Yes. Okay. So we're going to listen. We'll watch the lyric video, which is the album version. And then I have pulled up a just a fan video from the crowd of her performing at the Airst Tour. So we'll watch that too. Okay.

And we can't play any of this really, unless we have some reactions, we can cut around. But we'll mostly just listen and then we'll come back with thoughts. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thoughts. Okay. You know, I didn't connect the rhyme at the end of the first verse and second verse, sad and bad, which is nice. A lot of internal rhyme in this poem. She handles it well. I feel like she does that a lot. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't feel false or misused.

But I love the turn from, you don't get to tell me about sad and you don't get to tell me you feel bad, right? So that was fun. I liked the way she said the word just. If you wanted me dead, you should have just said, right? It goes up. And then, of course, who's afraid a little old me where she almost screams. The screaming one, yeah, at the beginning. Love it.

Yeah, that's cool. Um, I liked the, um, so tell me everything is not about me, but what if it is? And then you have three, three whole steps down, boom, boom, boom, you know. Did you notice on that, um, I hadn't noticed this before, but on that lyric video, when, when it's doing those boom, boom, boom, boom, the, all the other words fall away, but where she's saying, um, but what if it is? and everything else falls away and then it just says it is. And then the same thing she did for, they didn't do it to hurt me, but what if they did?

And then everything else fell away and they did. They did. Was just left there. That's fun. That's a fun. I've never even noticed that before. There you go. Close reading. Yeah.

I do want to, before we watch the performance. Oh, the heiress tour. This is what Taylor said about the song. Okay. She said, I felt bitter about. just all the things we do to our artists as a society and as a culture. There's a lot about this particular concept on the tortured poets department. What do we do to our writers and our artists and our creatives?

We put them through hell. We watch what they create. Then we judge it. We love to watch artists in pain, often to the point where I think sometimes as a society, we provoke that pain and we just watch what happens. Okay. I mean, I can see why a contemporary artist would feel that way. Yeah.

You know, as someone who reads a lot of dead poets, you know, one of the deals about writing is you write your work and it goes out there and we don't always know what you were thinking or what you were feeling or how it applies to your life or what it meant to you or, you know, we come to it as a new and modern reader. You know, again, if any of you've read The Odyssey, every time I read it, I find something new about my life in it. So, you know, I mean, I understand her perspective. I agree with her how we torture the creative writer.

Yeah. But, you know, especially with good reviews and bad reviews, I mean, you know, there have been a number of notorious writers whose works were poorly reviewed initially. and who later won a Nobel Prize. Yeah, or like after they die, they're like, oh, wait, actually this was good. Right. You know? Yes.

Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, obviously, like, she's fine. She's living a great life, you know? But it's like you just have those moments where this feels like the worst thing has ever happened, you know? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So let's watch this performance.

I will link to this in the description so other people can watch this exact performance as well. Great. This is from May 9th. This might have been the first or second time she ever performed this. I'm sorry that I know that. Okay. We'll be back. The last shot of the eyeless witchy woman.

That was very monstrous femininity. That is monstrous femininity. It is. And I like, you know, on those three whole step down, bum, bum that she comes stepping, just stomping. Yeah, throwing her hair. Yeah. And, of course, the elevation, you know, when she's singing and then she's on a scaffolding

and then she appears to come down to haunt them. Yeah. Pretty cool, theatrically cool. Levitating throughout the stage. And I have to admit, I like it, that she's in white, everyone's in white. I was going to say this is more of your woman in white, your white lady folklore. Yeah, yeah, it's the woman in white. Yeah.

Well, and an image of purity that conflicts or juxtaposes with her witchery, right? Yeah. So now, you know. Yeah, because witches wear black. Right, but no, you know, screw that. I'm, you know, I'm that modern witch. I'm charmed. I'm powerful.

I'm embracing it. Yeah. If you have a problem with that, you know what? I'll hex you. Yeah. I always appreciate. how she put when she, this is, it's like silly, but she's like talking about putting narcotics in their songs and she like sprinkles it on the stage.

Yeah, she is. Well, I love it. And the light comes up and yeah, I thought that was fun. It's very cool. I am still holding out hope that so they, so the Erez Tour movie, which is what you saw the My Tears Rickshay performance from. I'm sorry, there's an ERISTur movie. Yes.

Okay, I did not know. But. I've got a lot to catch up with. So the movie, obviously, professionally filmed, that's what we watched, My Tears Rurcache. Okay. But she did that. That film came out before she added this set. So we do not have a high-quality set, a high-quality filming of this set, except we know that she did film it a couple of times.

So I'm still holding it. I hope that, like, an extended version is coming out, and then we'll get, like, to be able to see all of that is happening behind her and stuff. and what she's doing to her dancers. Wow. Yeah. Heirs to her movie. We got to watch. I apparently, well, I can't do it until we're done with this whole podcast because I'm trying to be, I'm trying to be pure.

I'm wearing my white every time I pick up one of these and I'm just trying to read it as a poem without being influenced by the theatrics of what I just saw. Yeah, crazy. She's a theater kid at heart and it shows on stage. Okay. So your grades for Who's Afraid of Little Old Me? So we have five criteria. We'll remind everyone, including ourselves. We have a lyrical strength, narrative and structure, production and atmosphere,

lore and literary references, and emotional impact. Okay. So lyrical strength of Who's Afraid of Little Old Me? Okay. So I'm glad we're doing this today and not after the first or second time I read it. Yes, me too. Yeah, I'm impressed with the poetics. I am.

And so lyrical strength, sure, 96. Oh, hi. Okay. Narrative and structure. Okay, the unity of the animal imagery, the witch, the circus. It all worked. The first time she introduced circus, I thought that was a little off topic. But then I saw how she put it together.

She returns to the witch house with the cobwebs. You know, I'm going to go ahead and say 97. Oh, my goodness gracious. I know. I like this so much more than my first dream. Production and atmosphere. So that could be for anything we've seen here today. Okay.

Or red or any, all of it. I love seeing the concert. You know, I loved her performance. I would go to that performance. Yeah. So I'm going to say 97. Oh my goodness. This is your favorite song ever.

Lour and literary references. You know, I wish that she had infused a little bit more. Yeah, there weren't as many things that you were pulling from in this one. Yeah. Like books and poems and stuff. Right. I felt like I was providing what she might have, you know. I mean, I've been to England or I've been to New England and I've been to New England

and I've visited supposed witch's homes or grottoes or, matter of fact, on my shelf back here I have water drawn from a witch's grotto. Oh. You know, so I thought it was still good, 91. Okay. And emotional impact. Okay, because I am married and I have daughters and granddaughters and nieces. Yes. A sister.

That's right. Well, yes. A sister. Oh, I hope she's not watching. I love my sister. You know, I do believe that our culture is hard on women. And navigating it in the feminine can be very difficult. So when I tossed aside my toxic mix.

maculity and began to realize you're the problem that I'm the problem yeah but it's so hard it's hard you know that's the thing about it is even an informed even a guy but I do count myself as kind of an informed

forward thinking absolutely person you know I have to remember to do it and so I was really humbled by my later reading of this poem so I'm going to go back up to 97 yes a Hey, that gives us a 96.

Very strong, Taylor. It's pretty good. That's our highest one yet. Well, that was very strong work. I appreciated this all. Okay, I love that. I'm so happy that you came around. Because I was, I mean, I did think it would be fun to talk about, talk through it when you didn't like it.

Like, I think that will be fun because that is going to happen eventually. Yeah. One of these days sometime. Yeah. Actually, it would have been interesting to record that conversation. and then this one. Yeah, yeah. But I did think that would be interesting, but I do love that you like appreciate it.

And you see the genius for what it is, you know. Genius is. But it's well done. Okay, perfect. Okay, any other thoughts? No, I'm very pleased that I managed to cast aside my, yes. Yes. Presupposed initial reading.

And maybe it is a lesson to us all to read closely several times. Yeah. You know, I always told students, get your pencil out and don't read it once. You know, read it once without the pencil, once with the pencil, read it again, read it again. Yeah. You know, the more often you read it, the more you see and understand, the more words you recognize. Yeah. I think that's a good lesson for me to remember, too.

Absolutely. love it. Thank you. Okay. So on that note, we will be back with a different song next week. Make sure you follow us on Spotify, on YouTube. We also have an Instagram and TikTok. All of those are at Swifty and ScholarPod.

And you can find me at Angela Wyatt on Instagram. Maybe I should change that to my new last name. I don't know. That's a different conversation. and you cannot follow Uncle Jerry anywhere unless you see his car driving down the road okay let's see you next week thank you this is so fun