The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Paradox and Parallelism of Peace

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Did we finally find Uncle Jerry’s least favorite folklore poem? And maybe Angela’s too? In this episode, we dissect Peace from Taylor Swift’s 2020 album, and Uncle Jerry finds many paradoxes and double meanings, while struggling to find a window to crawl through into the narrative. Works Cited:ParadoxApostropheSynecdocheI Would Die 4 U – PrinceYou’ve Got a Friend in Me – Randy NewmanEasy Silence – The ChicksTwo Sleepy People – Fats WallerStuck in the Middle With You – Stealers WheelYou Are My Sunshine – Jimmie Davis Standing In The Rain – John Paul YoungStanding In The Rain – Al GreenStanding In The Rain – Electric Light OrchestraThe Swiftie and The Scholar Grading MatrixFollow Us:Patreon⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠Threads⁠Angela’s Instagram⁠Uncle Jerry’s InstagramAngela’s YouTube Channel

Welcome to The Swiftie and The Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I'm Angela McDowell, The Swifty. I am Dr. Jerry Coates, the scholar. Oh, very peaceful today. Oh, peace. How are you doing, Uncle Jerry? I am doing really quite well, thank you. I am recovered after last week's two-hour episode.

Oops. I just wanted to apologize for that. No, there's no apologies. That was fun. Two hours. Yeah, it was fun. There's a lot to do. Yeah.

Okay, today we are moving right along. This is going to be like, I think our, I think we only have three folklore songs left. So exciting. Our folklore journey is nearing its end. Yeah. We're climbing the hill to the celestial city. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Okay, so today we are tackling peace. This is another Taylor and Aaron. Destner track. Of course it is. Produced by Aaron Dessner. We will watch them talk about this a little bit in the Long Pond Sessions. Okay, great. Which I think helps kind of give it a little more context.

This is not one of my favorites. I think the song is beautiful, and I think some of the lines are beautiful, and some of the poetics are beautiful, but it is not like a message that I super resonate with. Um, so it's a little bit hard. And I can tell by the way that you're nodding your head that. You know what my grandson, Oliver says. He says, same. Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't think this will be a two hour episode today. No. We had a invisible string last week. Got a 99.8, which I think is the highest for folklore so far. Brilliant. Brilliant work. Absolutely and aptly placed in the folklore album.

And, um, I have a. feeling that today might be the opposite. I'm going to restore my good name as a strict grader. Okay. With this poem. All right. Yes. And I am curious.

I mean, I'm guessing it's all peaceful and everything, but I am curious to hear what it sounds like. Yeah. Okay. So jumping in, the title, peace.

Yes. So she's seeking peace. She's giving peace. We're finding peace. You know, what does it mean? And she does it mean? does give us a little resolution on that question.

First one. Yes. I really, you know, you sent this to me and I opened it up and I read that first line and I thought, oh, this is good. Yeah, she does do a good first line. Yeah. Our coming of age has come and gone, you know. And so there's a lightness to it. There's a humor to it.

It's got the word play using the word come. So it's coming of age. You know, it is a famous motif in literature, and then it's come and gone cute. You know, obviously, it's paradoxical. You know, coming of age usually begins with youth and follow someone through the end of their life or through a period of time. But apparently it's already happened. Yeah, we're grown, we're formed, where this is who we are, kind of. So she drops the whole coming of age thing and then says, oh, we're moved on.

Yeah. Yeah, I love the repetition. It's got temporal imagery because the relationship she's going to describe happens after youth, right? Uh-huh. And it establishes one of the central themes, and that is love after the illusions and the turbulence of youth. Oh, I like that. Yeah, there you go. One of the important tensions in our poem.

Okay, yeah. Suddenly, this summer, it's clear. Okay, so we want to know immediately what's clear. She uses a general reference pronoun. It. There is no clear noun and a scene. So it must be to follow in the remainder of the poem. And it does.

Yes. We start the line with suddenly. It's almost like an epiphany. Oh. I know. She's written a poem like it. It's almost like an epiphany, a sudden realization that in this summertime, something has become clear to her. Summer is a symbol.

Mm-hmm. Am I going too fast for you? No. Go for it. Summer is a symbol, light, warmth, youth, freedom. Okay, yeah. Of, you know, I like the alliteration. The S is suddenly this summer. It's, you know, so every one of the first four of the five words has an S in it.

It's alliteratively strong. It's a nice line to follow our opening line. So it's not bad poetry. Yeah. I think it's really good poetry. I'll state it in the positive rather negative. Yeah. I never had the courage of my convictions.

Okay, it's a cliche. It's idiomatic, the courage of my convictions. And she says, I never had that. Yeah. Right. That's what's clear. That's what's become clear. She sets the tone of self-indictment in this poem very early on.

I mean, here we are in line three, and she's already saying, I am flawed. I am anxious. Yeah. Right. So it's self-critical. So when doesn't she have the courage of her conviction? Well, as long as danger is near. So she's using personification.

Okay. Danger is like a person who's standing next to her. It's a physical presence. And she sets up this oppositional theme. It's something we're going to see throughout the poem. It's love versus danger, right? So you want to have love, but anytime it gets tough, maybe love goes a little south.

It's just around the corner, darling. So the danger is right there. Always lurking. And she addresses somebody else, darling, comma, noun and apposition. So this is an apostrophe directly addressing a lover who is not actually present in the poem. I mean, we can imagine this is a conversation, but it doesn't really appear elsewhere in the poem.

Right. We also have a metaphor around a corner. You know, a corner is a place you cannot see around. A corner is something that will be revealed. It's something imminent. So the danger will be revealed soon. It's something that pens over them, hangs over them. Yeah.

So it's always right there. Yeah. And just around the corner is also idiomatic. You know, and sometimes something is, it just around the corner can be positive. Here, no, it's danger. Because it lives in me. Oh, wait.

What? Yeah, I know. A little mini Volta here. So she turns, at first you think danger is like a personified idea. So the danger is always around the corner. No, no. It's right there present because the danger is her. somehow it exists with her.

So we have this extended personification where danger is a person but in her. No, I could never give you peace. So we introduce the title. We also kind of formulate a thesis statement. Yeah. So if you were going to convert this to a prose paper, this is our thesis statement at the end of the first paragraph. Yeah. Right.

Like we tell young writers, be sure and have a thesis. You can underline with a pencil right there at the end of the first paragraph. Don't put it anywhere else. Good writers can put it anywhere. Okay, so we have verse one, and she sets it up nicely. So, you know, when I implied that this was not my favorite poem, I don't think it's because it's not well written. Right.

No, agreed, yeah. Right. It is well written. Yes. We have the cliches or idiomatic expression. were used to. She does, she playfully changes them a couple of different times. She uses alliteration, you know, so she's got nice poetics.

You know, there's no particular rhyme with gone clear conventions near, you know, a clear and near rhyme, darling me, peace. Right. So it kind of happenstantially rhymed, or opportunistically rhymed. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure it's musical, but not a specific, schematic run you know

and she sets out this idea that she can't bring peace because there is danger with her. In her presence she is dangerous. Yeah. And of course it gives the reader the question why, where are you dangerous? Yeah, what's the danger? Right.

So we're going to get to that. We go to the chorus and she throws down a metaphor that we have seen her use before and that is I am fire. So fire is a metaphor, and it's also symbolic. Fire can be warm and light. It can also be passion.

Fire can also be dangerous. Yeah. It can also be destructive. It consumes us. I will burn you up. Or she says, and I'll keep your brittle heart warm. Oh. So this is Synecda key, part for the whole.

She doesn't really mean she'll keep the heart warm. Right. She means I will keep all of you warm. warm. Right. And interestingly enough, in the last poem that we covered last week, she says, I am wool. Uh-huh. And she will protect him.

She will keep him warm. Uh-huh. So we have this idea that she wants to assume this nurturing role. We also have really nice tactile imagery with the brittle diction. Yeah. I do like that. Yeah. So it is curious that she characterizes his heart as being.

being easily breakable. Interesting. Yeah, I wonder if she's saying something about him or something about their relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. It felt biographical. For sure, yeah.

You know, I'm not sure, but I do admit I like the tactile image. Agreed, yeah. So it's almost ironic that she characterizes herself as fire because it's ambiguously double-edged. Well, because she's saying like, I want, maybe it's like I want to be the fire that keeps you warm, but I also might be the fire that brings destruction. That destroys you. Yes. Yeah, and I think that duality is the primary functional motif of this poem. So that'll be in my conclusion. Okay. Right. If your cascade, ocean wave, blues, come. So if

she's your cascade, this is ellipsis. She is she's not completing the entire sentence. She is trusting you as the reader to make that completion. The cascade is a metaphor, a sudden onslaught.

Right? Or ocean wave blues, this pulsing rhythmic sadness. Right. So she's saying you know, I'll be your fire. I might keep you warm, I might destroy you, I might consume you.

And then she uses water imagery and she says, if I were water, I might be like a cascade, just like overwhelm you in an instant, like in a sudden onslaught, or I might be ocean wave blues. I might be creeping, waving, sadness or bring melancholy

to you. These are, you know, she's sending ambiguous messages to this guy. Yeah. I might be both. Yeah, I always took that in a different way. Okay, tell me.

Okay, so I always was like hearing them as in the enjammed lines, like two enjammed lines. So I was always hearing it as, but I'm a fire and I'll keep your brittle heart warm. If your cascade ocean wave blue, so when you get really sad. When you have depression, I'll warm you up. So when he's covered with water, is she drying him out? Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, because we do have these kind of elemental contrast.

Uh-huh, yeah. So we have water versus fire versus water in the elements here. Yeah, it's, it is ambiguous in meaning and ambiguously ran. Yeah, yeah. And ambiguity, of course, the trick she uses frequently. So again, good on you for right. all these people think loves for show. Okay, she introduces an antagonist in their little story.

Yeah. The antagonist is all these people. So who are these people? Okay. The paparazzi, maybe you? Yeah. Not me. I didn't care.

Yeah, just like the general public that, you know, I think you can get really biographical with this line and say that people, when Taylor was younger, especially said that she was just like dating a boy and then making him break up with her or breaking up with him so that she could ride a new album. Oh, yeah. You know, she was never actually like having real feelings for any of these people. She was just doing it like for the songs.

And that's kind of where I go with that one just with the next line where she's like, I don't even need to tell people about this. Like is how much I, how strongly I feel about you. Well, and you know, they're still doing it. I mean, it's funny because I've told you before, I can't open my phone up since we started a podcast without saying some Taylor Swift related article or something. And people are constantly questioning or suggesting she's never going to be able to write if she's happy. Exactly, yeah. Or she will simply spiral into typical, you know, housewifey songs and things like that.

Yeah. You know, I don't know. How can you predict what an artist is going to do next? You know, how many different periods did Picasso go through? Yeah. You know, he went through his cubist, his romantic, his blue period. You know, it's like, come on, artists are involving human beings. Yeah, just like the rest of us.

Just like the rest of us, yes. But she does kind of give us this antagonistic persona, all those people who think loves for show. Love is just our entertainment. Uh-huh. You know, I see those articles pop up and I honestly, I don't even read them. I mean, I don't even try to read them. I don't even get past the headline before I scroll up. Of course, yeah.

But you know some people do. Yeah. And then take it as truth and. Right. They're just consuming. So we kind of set up this, again, there's a poem that builds itself on juxtaposition. So we get public performance versus private devotion, right? You know, don't worry that, you know, I understand that there's this public image,

and I understand that people are going to consume that, but we have a private devotion. But I would die for you in secret. Is this an allusion to Prince? What? Prince, you know Prince. Well, I know Prince. I would die for you. Oh, we've talked about this before.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The hand signals and everything. Maybe it is.

Yeah, I mean, it's a Prince song, so if you don't know it, oh, are you kidding me? Welcome to the 90s. I'll link it below. Okay. I love Prince. I'm sorry, he's one of my favorite. Purple Rain, absolutely brilliant album. So, yeah, I think it's an allusion to Prince.

Maybe, I don't know, how do you step over? I mean, she's born in 1989, so in the late 90s, she would be. 10 years old she'd be cranking up the boom box absolutely she had to hear yeah this is also hyperbolic obviously you wouldn't actually die for someone yeah I do like the word that she that she uses in the line of secret you know she essentially the speaker is making a deep commitment to the other person right so it's just you and me and I'm making this commitment to you and it's not public like all those people who are devouring our love story.

Yeah. You know, um, so I think what she's doing is reversing the previous line. Right. So I don't care what they, what they do or say, you know, I'm devoted to you in private without the public hype. Exactly. Right. Um, the devil's in the details.

What? Wait a minute. Here's another devil. Why was only last week when I listed five different songs where she made. mentions the devil or demons. We've got another one to add to the list. So, yeah, we got number six. The devils and the details.

It's an idiomatic expression. It's also religious imagery. But you got a friend in me. Obviously, an illusion, intertextual reference to a song by Randy Newman. You know, so in the movie, as we know, we find out that friends bind together and everything comes out right. No matter what the obstacle is. You know, as long as you and I are together, it's going to be okay. Yeah, yeah.

So she's saying there are going to be tough times. There are going to be trials, but, you know, our presence together will fix it all. So she's comparing and contrasting cosmic difficulty with ordinary companionship. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it's going to. So devil versus the whole, you know, you and me holding out against evil. And she manifested the Toy Story 5 song for herself. That's right.

And she grabbed that spot, dude, didn't she? Randy Newman, get out of my way. So, yeah, I think that she's, I don't know, she's playing with different songs here. I do think that I would die for you as Prince. And you got a friend in me as Randy Newman. Well, that makes me wonder if there's other songs. That's like the brittle heart and the cascade, something.

If there's something there. Maybe so. Yeah. Let's see. Oh. Would it be a. enough if I could never give you peace. Okay.

So she is offering him, this is not a great proposal, you know, conditional sufficiency. Yeah, she's, yeah, but this is what makes me sad about this poem. Yeah. Is that she even felt like what she had to offer to this person was not good enough because of factors that she cannot even control with, like, the world around her. Yeah. I mean, you could say there's a certain level of realism. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, love isn't perfect.

Our life will have some travail. You know, it may seem like I don't, I'm not always, you know, the best or most perfect person, but I'll be there. Yeah. You know, is that enough? Yeah. You know, people may talk about it, but I'll be there. Is that enough? you know, I'll never give you peace is ambiguous in its meaning.

Okay, yeah. Yeah, I'll never give you peace meaning because I'm a celebrity, people won't ever leave you alone. But also it means I'll never, I'll never give you peace, like I'll never leave you alone. Right? I'll always be next to you. I'll never abandon you. Oh. Right.

Okay. Well, that's interesting. Yeah. So you see how that's. That's a double meaning. So I'll never give you peace because of who I am because of the persona that I have to portray in public. But also, I'll never give you peace. I'll never leave you alone.

I'll always be at your side to endure whatever life brings us. Interesting. Yeah. I like that. I did like that. Yeah. So, I mean, essentially, she's offering to be there in the midst of existential uncertainty. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what else can you get? I mean, you know, verse two. Exactly. Yes. Okay.

Your integrity makes me seem small. And before we started recording, you had, you took issue with this line. I just, I don't know. I just feel like what we know now and how this, the relationship she was in at the time that she wrote this song and how it kind of fizzled out. And we got more information on subsequent album. where it's just like she clearly had this person like on a pedestal and like never felt like she was good enough. And it's like this is, I don't know, I just, I just don't like that. I don't ever want a woman to feel like they're not good enough in a relationship, you know.

Get my pen and we'll just strike this line. Oh, there for you. And I'm just like, and you know, she's like talking about like gossiping with her friends. And it's like, yeah, you're allowed to do that. Like that doesn't, that doesn't. It's okay. It doesn't make you bad. Exactly.

It's like, you're just taking like normal parts of life and being like, if I don't stop doing these things, is that enough? You know. Is it like asking for permission to be human? Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Okay.

So I've already, I've struck that line. So first, we'll start with verse two. You paint dreamscapes on the wall. I do think that's a nice, a nice line. It's a nice line. Yeah. I do have to go back to the real first line. Yes.

Okay. It does create a moral diction, right? Yeah. So he has integrity. She seems, quote, small, unquote. And so, I don't know. Again, you've got this comparative addiction where it's him and then her. Uh-huh.

Right? So it's love and danger. You know, it's fire and water. It's him and her. And that's going to be consistent. Oh, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

She's a consistent writer. You know, this is what she does. So this is why she writes good songs. Yeah. You paint dreamscapes on the wall, visual imagery, painting. He's creative, right? Painting is symbolic. He could be bricklaying.

Yeah. He's imaginative. He sees possibilities. So it's all very complimentary of who he is. The wall is an image of the future. You've got an eye for the future. beautiful. Okay.

I talk shit with my friends. It's like I'm wasting your honor. Okay. She is crass and colloquial. He is formal and chivalrous. You know, he's got honor. I mean, look at the diction. Yeah.

Yeah. Just this, you know, this dramatic moral inequity that exists between the two of them is a huge gap. and nevertheless they're going to try to bridge that. Yeah. And she does it using the Sciura, you know, always notice the comma. You know, a SciShera isn't just a knee-jerk thing that you see in line. It should set up some parallelism.

It should set up some contrasting imagery or addiction. And that's how she used it here. Yes. Oh, and you know that I'd swing with you for the fences. Okay, so, gosh, we've got a couple of, it's almost like she's mixing two different idiomatic images. So to swing with someone, you know, means to hang out, to have a good time. You know, traditionally in 17th and 18th century painting. Okay.

When a man is pushing a woman on a swing, and it's always the man pushing a woman, it's a metaphor for six. Oh. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Ask Gainsborough. Yeah, take a look. Type in, go to a Google search and type in 18th century painting, man pushing woman on sweet. Okay, we'll do that.

And just take a look. But also, swing for the fences is a sports metaphor. Right? So when you swing for the fences in baseball, you are trying to hit a home run. You're not trying to hit a single. You're not trying to carefully place the ball. You're not trying to be a contact hitter, as we say in baseball. You're just hauling off and letting it all go.

Yeah. Trying to get the biggest thing. Trying to get the biggest success, I guess. Exactly. So it's a metaphor for taking risks. So she says, I'll risk everything if you risk everything, right? Because she says with you. So it underscores their togetherness.

sit with you in the trenches. Okay, now we go to military imagery. And I have to admit, you know, this is a point where I have to ask you, Ms. Swift, is it your intention to shift metaphorical imagery that fast? You know, because we have two different metaphors, fences and trenches. They rhyme. Uh-huh. Okay.

So they seem to be bound together. but one is baseball and the other is warfare, military imagery. And to me, when she has used military imagery before, she'll spend two or three lines building it. Right. You know, when she has used patterns of imagery, she tends to spend several lines building it and linking it. But to me, I like the fences line, but then all of a sudden she sits with them in the trenches, just idiomatic, symbolizes, you know, hardship and conflict shared. And it's just back to back, it is a little jarring.

Okay. I don't feel like she set it up well as a poet. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I always picture, I actually really like these lines and the next one. And probably just because of the way they sound or something. But I'm always picturing, like, I'll swing with you for the fences. So, like, we're going to be going out and we're going to be killing it in our careers.

we're going to, you're going to go do lots of incredible movies and I'm going to go make incredible albums. And then with the sit with you in the trenches, to me, goes back to if your Cascade, Ocean Wave Blues come. Right. Because we hear so much about this person's blues. First, she's talking a lot about his blue eyes and how they like take her in. And then as time goes on, the blue sort of shifts into like talking about his mental health

and his depression. Oh. And so I am always, I am always picturing sit with you in the trenches is like be home and be sad with you when you're depressed. I see. And, you know, that also goes back to like hoax with like, don't want no other shade of blue but you. I always am just picturing the trenches as like these like terrible mental health

days. And see, I mean, I appreciate the interpretation. Yeah, but it's still just like jarring. It is. Yeah. Well, and it also hinges on biographical elements. For sure. And so since I'm lacking in the biographical backgrounding, you know, it is hard for me to see it.

It still feels jarring to me. I mean, I understand she's trying to say, I'll swing with you for the fences. That is, I will take risks to make big strides and to have huge steps. And then she says, I'll sit with you in the trenches, so I will be present with you when things are not going well. So I get all that, but the two metaphors back to back are still jarring to me. Because you've got baseball metaphor with military metaphor. And maybe you can say sports is a war. But it's just, it's hard for me.

It feels awkward. It doesn't feel like she said it up well. Okay. Fair enough. Then she says, give you my wild, give you a child. parallelism. It's anaphora with repetition of the word give. It's an idiom. If you put the two together, the last word of the two phrases together is wild child. Oh yeah, I never thought of that. Right. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, I think she's hinting at that idiomatic phrase. This is the type of

thing she does with cliches in idiom. She plays with them. She changes them. Yeah. She juggles them. So, you know, it's like I give her thumbs down for fences and trenches, but a thumbs way up for giving my wild for wild child yeah for playing with the words so I'm going to give you my wild

I'm going to share the untamed unpredictable me but you may also get a family right so you know if you're willing to take

both risks the unpredictable me along with the mother me you know then maybe this is going to work she's essentially building an argument for them being together And she continues that, you know, give you the same, give you the silence that only comes when two people understand each other.

So give, give, give. And you see how those lines resonate together. Again, something for me that's lacking with the baseball metaphor and the warfare metaphor. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's like she goes to much better, you know, poetry writing here. Give you the silence that only comes when two people understand each other is paradoxical. silence seems like the absence of a relationship or the lack of communication. But, you know, the best friends you have are the friends who will let you sit.

Exactly. Right. You know, when I was in college, my second year I roomed with Austin Jackson Jernigan and Austin, in Austin. Oh, yeah. And I don't know, he and I just were, we were sympathetic souls. And he was a guy I could just sit in a room with and listen to music. and not have to talk. Yeah.

That's nice. Yeah. I mean, we could study together and we wouldn't pester each other. And then sometimes we'd just put a record on and listen. And it was cool. Yeah. You know, and those are the best friends, the one who, you know, intimacy means not having to have words. Exactly.

Yes. There's a Dixie Chick's song, or I guess the Chicks now, that I don't even remember what it's called. But when I heard it, I was just instantly. like, yes, that makes so much sense to me. And it's something about like this easy silence that you like create for me, basically. And so I think, I always think about that with this line, because it's like, yeah, that silence that you're just able to like exist in and not have to like perform or like be something else or like be someone else. Like, you know, you just are able to like sit in who you are and like just be. Right. You know, that's, I don't want to get too

intimate with you here. But, You know, some of the best moments in the day are those moments when you go to bed with your significant other. And sometimes you talk about the day, sometimes you talk about the morrow, sometimes you talk about stuff. Yeah. And sometimes you don't talk. You just sit there. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and that's just, it's like the Fats Waller song, Two Sleepy People. Yeah. It's a great song. I don't know that one. I'll find it in Linkett there. I love Fatswaller, piano player. But there's a great line, you know, two sleepy people, he says so much in love, too much in love to say good night. Yes, I love that.

Right. They're just, they just want to be together. They just want to exist in the same space. Yeah. I think this is the most intimate line in our poem. Yeah. That's probably the most, like, resonant with me, too. Because as, like, an introverted person, like, that needs to have a lot of time where I'm just, like, you're saying, like,

just like kind of laying there and like you have nothing else you know that line really is like oh yeah that is exactly what I want I just want to be able to like be at home you know right yeah it's lovely um she says family that I choose which is also a good line yeah um now that I see your brother as my brother so repetition of brother emphasize the expansion of um emotional relationships so I love you I love your whole family you know um And again, this sets up one of those parallelisms, the biological family versus the chosen family. Right. So, you know, I think that's fun.

You know, your dad and I always say we were brothers that we chose. Right. He's my brother that I chose and he chose me, you know, and we chose Michael. Yeah. You know, so the three of us together were and are, you know, just brothers despite having different mothers. Yes. And then she asked this rhetorical question after laying all this propositional material out, you know, I will go through the good times, I'll go through the bad times. This sounds like a tub-thumping song.

I will be crazy, but I'll be a mother. I will sit in silence. I will choose your family and treat them like my own. Is that enough? Is it enough? after a whole sequence of promises she says do you accept these conditions

right yeah but she says it is conditional but there's robbers to the east clowns to the west and somehow in my head I heard Steelers wheel clowns to the left of me

jokers to the right oh fun yeah I did I don't know because the next line is and I'm stuck in the middle with you oh cute okay yeah so I wonder if that was resonating in her head. It must be there. There seem to be a lot of songs in this one, huh?

Feels like. Yeah. Yeah, clowns. We also see in Mirabal. The rodeo clowns. I know I'm getting a whole repertoire, aren't I? Yeah. Thank you. It's symbolic language. You know, obviously robbers, it feels like robbers in New Yorker danger and thievery and clowns in L.A. Yeah. Are absurd mockers and, you know, and so we've got this whole role of metaphors going. It's also divided by the Sychura, and so you're supposed to compare and contrast the two. She says, I'll give you my sunshine, give you my best. Parallelism, repetition, give and give.

And then is this an allusion to the song, You Are My Sunshine? Sounds like it. You are my sunshine, my only sunshine. Yeah, so we have clowns to the left and be jokers to the right, stuck in the middle of you, and you are my sunshine. But the rain is always going to come if you're standing with me. Oh, what? So she is danger. She is fire.

And she draws sad times, draws tough times. Paparazzi right around the corner. Is this an allusion to the John Paul Young song standing in the rain? Probably, yeah. I don't know. The rain is always going to come. Or, of course, Al Green has a song standing in the rain. ELO has a song standing in the rain.

Electric Light Orchestra, for those of you, too young to know. Certainly, we do have a metaphor for rain, a symbol for rain, sadness, discomfort. Yeah. Right? There will be sadness. There will be hardship. If you're next to me, you know, I'm going to have some sadness. You know, you may have some sadness.

I'll be there to protect you, give you warmth. I can't promise complete shelter. I can't promise you complete happiness. You know, the world is what it is. Yeah, but I'm going to give you all these things. But I'm going to give you everything else. Yeah. I'm going to make promises to you.

Yeah. And then we have the last chorus. What? We're done? I know. It's a short one. It is. And it's repetition, but I'm a fire and I'll keep your brittle, your brittle heart warm.

if your cascade ocean wave blues come all these people think loves for show but i would die for you and seek i would die for you the devil's in the details but you've got a friend in me would it be enough if i never give you peace and then she asks again and again she triple repeats um it feels like it creates a sort of emotional crescendo agreed yeah right is it enough is it enough is it enough is it enough is it enough And it kind of, for me, asking the question over and over again is kind of like, well, the answer is no. Yeah, see, he's, I mean, I don't know if this is a dramatic monologue. You know, is she asking him? Is he there?

Yeah. When she says, darling in the first verse, you know, I said that was an apostrophe directly addressing, you know, a personified subject or an absent person. But is he there when she's asking? Is this a recreation of an actual moment? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I don't know. And I feel like, I'm sorry, I feel like the music with this one, like, it's just very, like, you know, there's no build, there's no crescendo, there's no, it's like just, it doesn't really have a resolution. And with the repeating of these songs, or with the line, I mean, I feel like she's like saying, like she knows that this, it would not be enough, you know.

Yeah, so that was one of my curiosities. because I know I'm going to hear the song. Yeah. And I wondered, you know, does the music build? Is it a true crescendo or is it more like an incantation? Is it just a, you know, a devolving question that she really already feels the answer to? Yeah, she knows the answer, but she's still asking the question. Yeah.

Because she wants the answer to be different. Right. Yeah, and that's our song. Yeah, it's a quick, easy one. Yeah, when you sent it to me and I was scrolling down at his page one. on. I scrolled down and went, wait, what? You must have missed something. You know, there was that one time where you skipped a

I did, yeah. You left a little section out. Yeah. And I thought, well, maybe she made a mistake. And I looked it up on genius. Nope. Yeah, that's all it is. This is the whole song.

And, you know, honestly, one of the reasons why I'm not warm to this song, to use her addiction, is because it does feel. It runs in that confessional vein. But it doesn't leave, you know, I said that the best writers leave a window open for us. I don't feel like that window is very wide open. Yeah. You know, I didn't feel invited to participate in the world of the song. Yeah, which I guess is the same thing, like why I'm saying I don't really resonate with the message because I can't like, I can't get myself in there somehow.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I feel like she's got this. relationship, she wants to build on it. She understands she has liabilities. She's very self-critical and self-deprecating. You know, can he accept all of that? And she says, I will warm you and I will care for you in those times when you are blue or in those times when you're all wet. And in those times when, you know, there is warfare about, you know, and when people want to make our private moments public, I'll be there through all of that.

And, you know, I think, yeah, but you see, I'm not a world-renowned megastar. Right, right. And, you know, my spouse is not either. Right. Yeah, and I do think, like we're going to hear her and Aaron talk about, like, I do think that there is other ways that you can interpret this. Like I think Aaron says he interprets it through like a mental health lens. Like he's like, I'm picturing it like, is my mental health, is my depression or anxiety or whatever I'm dealing with, like going to get in the way of a relationship. And that does help me a little bit, but I still just, it's not, it's just not enough there somehow.

Right. I did wonder about that because she, twice in the poem, she talks about the sadness, you know, the ocean wave blues. And it's funny because people who have a depression will sometimes talk about it coming in waves. Yeah. And so I wondered if this was someone with some kind of problem. Yeah. You know, it seemed to be hinting at that. Yeah.

It didn't explicitly state it, but I did wonder about it. And I thought, well, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. Maybe it's about that. You know, I just don't know. Yeah. But I also feel like another note is that you, in, so many of the songs on folklore, you have found several different, like, folklore images in those. Yeah.

And, like, especially Invisible String. Like, that's why we were talking for two hours about it because you found, like, so much in there. And it just feels like there's not that there's not a lot here for that. So when I was typing my notes. I keep predicting what you're going to say. Yes, you just did. Because, you know, in my notes, I said, this is a poem for paradox and parallelism. Okay, yeah.

Okay. And I made a list. Love, danger, youth, age, public life, private life. Protector, threat. Biological family, chosen family. Crass diction, moral diction. Cold, warm, fire, water. Robbers, clowns, east, west, sunshine, rain.

Okay, so she's doing all those, and there are probably a couple more. You know, I mean, all those really high thumbs up things that she does as a poet, where she uses these contrasting, you know, images. And yet, after I typed it all up, I went back in Pan and I wrote, How is this folklore? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I mean, I thought, wait, this is now about folklore, and clearly invisible strings

strongly attached to the folklore some of the other poems in this I mean literally in our first episode in My Tears Rcochet you started talking about like the woman in white and stuff like from the very beginning of this album like you were finding all kinds of folklore in those songs

Yeah how do we not see it in Cassandra you know I mean so many songs that she writes are so strongly embedded in tales that she reinterpreted You know it's it's like watching the movie The Odyssey, which I still haven't gotten to do. Oh my gosh. So I ask, how is this folklore? And then I thought, well, is this the antithesis of a fairy tale?

Oh. Right? Because it's like the opposite. Oh, because you're... Everything's not perfect, right? That's interesting. Yeah, because in a fairy tale, we have obstacles, but we, you know, we're going to overcome them.

Yeah, always, yeah. Yeah, we're going to bring Rapunzel down. down out of that tower. We're going to kiss sleeping beauty and she's going to wake up. You know, the wealthy guy is going to marry the formerly poor girl in the red thread. And he's going to find out that it was destiny all alone. And you can't subvert destiny. And maybe this is the opposite of a fairy tale, the antithesis of a folk tale.

You know, does it ground? And so I asked the question, does this ground the outside? in reality. Oh. Because she says, look, I'm a really, I'm a very real person. I have flaws. I talk shit with friends. Yeah.

You know, she uses crass language. You know, he seems more morally perfect to her. She can be mercurial in her emotional setup, you know, but she's willing to try. You know, that seems really very real. That's interesting. So I ask, does it, I'm having trouble reading my own writing, does it move from fictional narrative back to autobiography? You know, because this is more autobiographical confessional poetry

than the fictional narrative of some of the others. Agreed, yeah. You know, so I even mentioned several of the songs are third person or character voices. Yeah. Right, Betty and those things. this is clearly in the first person. That's interesting. It's like, like, it's almost like if this is her being like, I'm a real person, this is bringing us back, like not a fairy tale.

Then it's almost like, this is my own folklore. Right. So where does this song fall in the song list? Yeah, it's like second to last. Oh, is it? So it goes peace and then hoax. And then the Likes is the bonus track. Okay.

Man, I love that poem. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I was actually, I'm so glad you asked that because while you were talking, I was thinking like, oh, it'll be interesting when you get to look at this album as a whole in a couple of weeks, like for you to look at the track order and see what it means that this is second to last with just hoax after it. Yeah, you know, it's, and maybe it does. Maybe it pulls us back into reality.

take make you know antithetically you know creating a new view of what a folk tale is interesting yeah yeah I don't know so this is a preview maybe these are the things we'll talk about

when we talk about the folk tale you know folklore as an album yeah yeah because I like it wasn't it wasn't my favorite poem I felt like there were some clunky moments politically and yet, you know, somehow I think it might work in the context, in the greater context of the album. Yeah, maybe. It's like Empire Strikes Back.

That's just what I was thinking. Is it? Everybody loved the first movie, Star Wars. Everybody loves the last movie, The Return of the Jedi. Empire Strikes Back when it came out was kind of panned, you know. And then later on, years later, we realized the value of it. Okay. Yeah.

You know, even though it wasn't everyone. Everybody's favorite movie, and Han Solo winds up frozen in graphite. Maybe it was nevertheless necessary. I think the descent into the cave was necessary. Okay. So that Luke Skywalker can see dark reflections of the self. Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Just like in peace, where she sees dark reflections of the real Taylor Swift. Oh, my gosh, you figured it out. That's it. Okay, but yeah, I really did want to know how does this figure, how is this folklore? Yeah. Is it the antithesis of folklore? Yeah, interesting. We'll say, yeah, yeah, I think so.

Okay, you ready to listen? Ready to hear it. Okay, we are going to watch the lyric video, and then I think we'll just listen to the little clip of Aaron and Taylor talking about this song, and we'll save listening to the Long Pond version of that for when we're listening to all, like, when we're wrapping up the whole album. Okay, we'll be right back. Hear that? It's your money calling.

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Well. Yeah, interesting conversation. I also think it's interesting that she said that this may be my most personal song on the album. Which makes sense that we're not able to resonate with it as much maybe because it's so closely held. It's her. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not saying, of course, that you can't be drawn to the song. Right.

I'm not saying that you can't resonate because you might have someone who has a similar relationship or, you know, or you're, Or you're asking the same question, can I give you peace? You know, is our relationship going to work to a point where, you know, we can lie in bed silently at night and just be too sleepy people too much in love to say goodnight? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

It's interesting. My summative statement? Yes. Peace is constructed around paradox. Swift presents herself simultaneously as fire and danger. protector and threat, lover and source of instability. The poem rejects the romantic fantasy that love removes suffering. Love, rather, is constructed through a series of metaphorical systems, maturation,

weather, fire, water, battle, game, and religion. These converge on the idea that bad things will happen in a relationship, that persistence is present through this inevitability. The poem's greatest strength is its conditional honesty. The speaker doesn't say, I will give you a perfect life. In effect, she says, I am imperfect, danger will come, rain will fall, and I will keep trying. If peace is successful as a poem, that success comes from transforming the romantic commitment from a promise of perpetual blissful happiness into one of endurance, generosity, and simple presence.

Okay. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I really do feel that that's what the poem's about. It says it's not about the perfection of love. It's just about us being. It says, we're going to be present and we're going to work together. We're going to get through everything together. Yeah. I like it.

Okay. Okay. You ready to grade? Sure. Okay. Okay. from folklore, lyrical strength. Oh, lyrical strength. I'm going to say 88.

I know, I know. I'm going to be a hard grader on this one. Oh, we haven't had to be in a long time. I know. Come on, again, she's a worldwide megastar. She can take it. Yeah, she can. Narrative, structure.

Narrative and structure, you know, I did like all the parallelisms. You know, they worked for me. Yeah. the fact that she was consistent with it. It was deceptively brief. Yes. You know. So it's, you know, I feel like I wanted more.

Okay. I did like the repetition at the end, the persistence with the question. I'm going to say 92. Okay. Production and atmosphere. So we're talking about the song? Yeah. I mean, I got the anxious.

of the song. I love the way she sang the last three lines three different ways. And she made me feel like I could go back and reread them and think about how I would read and understand them differently

each time. So I think I learned something by listening to the song. So 93. Okay. Lur, literary references, devices. It almost feels like, yeah, see, I feel like some of them were a little clung.

I felt like it's the anti-folklore song. It's the I'm grounded in reality and I really need to get this song out. Interesting. You know, I almost feel like it was cathartic for her personally to release the song. And I like that it's the end of, it's near the end of the album. It'll be interesting to go back in, because when we did the first few from the album, we didn't really spend a lot of, lot of time on the order. No, not at all.

They were presented. Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of up and down, so I'm going to go back down to 88. Okay. And emotional impact. She just didn't leave that window open for me to get into this song. You know, it's funny because it's about peace and it's topically something that I embrace. Uh-huh.

And so I would love to have been engaged at a higher level in the soul. That's also interesting. Just hearing her talk about that in Long Pond, her saying, I heard this track that Aaron gave her. And she said, I heard it. And the first thing I thought of was peace. And she said that she wanted to write a song that was like, well, what if it's about not being able to give someone peace? Yeah, being able to get there. And now you're saying it could possibly be that this is like,

the antithesis to folklore. And it was like the antithesis to peace and the antithesis to folklore. That could be an interesting thread to pull. Yeah, someday when she, when she reaches out to us, we'll let you know. And this is going to be on my list of questions. So did you really, were you intentional about your antithetical approach to peace and its placement in your album folklore? I'd like to know. How did it touch me?

I, you know, I'm still searching to understand it. Okay. I feel like I need to live with it some more. Yeah. Right now I'm going to say in 87. Okay. That's an 89.6. Almost an A.

I would, yeah. But I don't feel like a rounding up. Okay. I might round up. I'm sure some of you will round up to a 90. Yeah, I actually am interested to know how y'all feel about this. because I don't know. I feel like people talk about it a lot,

but I don't know that I hear people like really going to bat for peace a lot. Yeah, I'd be interested to know how it touches your life. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Because that, you know, the last question is the emotional impact. And so I'd like to hear how does this, where did you find that open window to engage as a reader or a listener? Where was it? There were a couple of really good lines that we pointed out that we like.

But holistically, where did you find that open window? Yeah, yeah. How does this work in your life? Okay. Well, I'm honestly kind of impressed that a folklore song got to be. Oh, yeah? Yeah, because I feel like folklore's been doing real well. Yeah, it's an amazingly well-written group of songs, poems.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Anything else? I don't think so. How many do we have left, three? Quick, easy one today. Okay, yes. So we have, no, just two more now.

Two more, and then we've got to get ready. You've got to get ramped up for the holistic, the whole ball of wax. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. So come back next week for, there's only two left, so you've got a 50 shot at guessing which one is coming next. And we will see you then. We will, in the meantime, be on socials at Swiftian Scholars.

pod. You can follow Uncle Jerry at Dr. Uncle Jerry. You can follow me at Angela Wyatt McDowell, and we will see you next Thursday.