The Swiftie and The Scholar - The Self-Deprecation of Anti-Hero

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

We’re back and we’re kicking 2026 off with the three remaining tracks from Taylor’s submission to the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Spoiler alert: she was inducted! We’ll talk more about that in the final of these three episodes, but today we are focused on Anti-Hero. Uncle Jerry wonders about Taylor’s psychological status when writing this song and Angela has an A-ha! moment about how the music cues us to maybe feel differently than the lyrics alone would make us feel.Works Cited:First Person DeixisCharles Barkley Nike CommercialBeauty and the Beast (1991)Brigid Kaelin on InstagramTaylor talking about Anti-HeroAnti-Hero Music VideoFollow Us:⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠Angela’s Instagram⁠Uncle Jerry Instagram

I'm Anna Mena. And, like my music, my my baby is change with me. And it's a part of my rhythm. For so, Potion 9, of Sebastian Professional, has all what my

cabo needs. Nutrition Profunda. Protection against the encrespaid. 99% less of rotura and Puntas abirtas under control. New Potion 9

of Sebastian Professional, the secreto professional of who not are not they're doing tendences,

but of who can do you a business with Shopify and debate records of of the

form of the pay for with a better conversion of the world. Has I heard the

best of the world. The incredible system of the Pago and it does it your site

web, in the social and in whatever that's music for your

ears. No, you're more your business will be a

good a showy and your period of program for a euro

per M Microsoft M Microsofts Barra Records Welcome to the Swifty and the Scholar The podcast where we examine the lyrics,

lore and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDowell the Swifty. And I am Dr. Jerry Coats, the scholar. Hello, Uncle Jerry. Hey, Angela. Happy 2026. Well, happy New Year. Well, I guess actually one of our episodes

did technically come out in 2026. Oh, I guess, yeah. On New Year's Day. But we've taken a bit of a hiatus. Yeah. Okay. How was your hiatus? I feel like I saw you more than normal.

I know, yeah. We played miniature golf. We did. That was fun. It was fun. I feel like it was fun for the first nine holes. Yeah, it was a little less fun, the second nine holes. I was a little disengaged, but yeah, it's okay.

So. So, oh, can I make a political statement now? Okay, yes. I won't make any political statement. So I have been reading my Instagram. Oh, yes, yes. I have exactly one post. Yes.

And I've been more fastidious about reading the comments that people put. And you know what? I am really amazed by the international quality of our podcast. I mean, I really am. Yeah, we have people all over. They're all over. They're like in Australia and New Zealand and Malaysia and Syria and Lebanon and ivory coast. And I mean, South Africa.

Lots of Brazil. Lots of Brazil. and Argentina. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, in this often very chaotic world, I hope that you are all in safe places. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Yeah. I do love to get messages, like, I mean, love the messages from everyone. But then sometimes there are people from places you would never think like Taylor had broken into even, you know. And I'm like, wait, why are you here? But thank you for being here. Oh, and people from Denmark, which I am one quarter Danish. Are you? Did you know? Yeah, it's mostly this arm and part of my torso. Yeah, yeah, totally.

But, yeah, part of my family immigrated from Denmark in the 19-teens or 20s or so. I love Denmark. I've been to Copenhagen. Oh, have you really? Yeah. I have not. I can't wait to visit my native country. I don't think I'm Danish, but. Oh, yeah. Well, I have eaten Danish. Yeah, delicious. Okay.

So hello, international folks. Yeah, also hilarious. that on the Christmas, Tis the Damn Season episode, you mentioned that you started in Instagram. We did not link it anywhere. You said the name one time. Yes. And then that episode came out and all of a sudden you had like 250 followers. And then now it's like 500 and something.

That was a couple days ago. I haven't checked again. But you're such a star. I have no content. I mean, it's like I am completely vacuous. I don't know why people will sign up, but I will try to put something up from time to time. And I'm most appreciative. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. And I still, you know, I thought about, I actually was going to change it before it got out there away from drunk uncle. Yeah. Drunkle Jerry. I think people like it, though. I know. People said that they like it.

So actually, I liked one person's comment that said I might use dots to go DR dot, uncle, dot, Jerry, you know. It might be smart. It's not too late. You can still do that. It might clarify, but I am kind of like in drunk legiery. I did see, like, lots of comments, people, like, literally just calling you drunkal Jerry. I know. Two words.

I mean, I don't drink that much. Diet Coke. Yeah, lots of Diet Coke. Okay. Yes, back to the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I kind of brought the next three songs. up in the in the lineup for a specific reason um taylor is officially nominated to be in the

songwriters hall of fame okay and to do so you have to have 20 years of work so she's eligible in 26 because she her first album came out in 2006 and she submitted five songs and at first glance the five songs are like, why these five? But as I've thought about it longer, I do kind of think they make sense. We've already covered two of those songs. The other two are Love Story, which was like, you know, kind of her first like breakout hit country songwriting. And then All Too Well, the 10-minute version. Okay. Which is a perfect song. So that one makes sense. I mean, I would go with that. I think it's a great song. Yeah. That one makes sense to me. Love story makes sense to me not because it's like this incredibly written song, but because of what it was at the time and how it's

kind of lasted. And then the other three are anti-hero blank space in the last great American dynasty. So that's a spoiler. I'm not going to be able to like, you know, have my fun and have power over these people knowing what episode's going to drop next. But I did just want to talk about these. And maybe we'll talk about them as a whole in like the third episode that we do. so then we have all five of them.

But I do think they make sense. I do not think that these are like her best songs by any stretch. Peter. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think there are others, but I think this is a good, I think it tackles like different kinds of songwriting,

which is why I think she chose them after I look at them a little more deeply and more, you know, as a whole. Right. But today, we're going to do we're going to cover anti-hero okay and so you've already read through those three songs I read all three of these okay

so you know we can just all keep that in mind but anti-hero for today a lot of people thought that this one would be after New Romantics because you said that one of the themes was like embracing your anti-hero which blew my mind

and I do think she maybe does that on this song a little bit, but like kind of only the anti-hero in her own head a little bit. So yeah, let's get into it. Okay. This from Midnights. Yeah. So first of all, I do want to, I do want to answer a couple of you who posted things on my Instagram said you'd like me to do this song or that song.

Yeah. And I don't pick the song. He's not in charge here. I am not in charge. I'm in charge. I'm just a puppet. I just, all right, let's look at the song. So, but you wanted to see how that looked, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can leave those comments for me. Yeah. So Angela picks all the songs. So I got these three in a package. And I read, of course, if you give it to me, I can't not read it. Right, right. So I had to read all three of them through.

And the last one, the Harkness poem, I was kind of interested in, it's like, all right. I mean, I knew about her just from my understanding of dance. but is it a great poem? Well, we'll talk about it. I don't know. It's a great poem. It's a great song. Yeah, I know.

I've heard your prejudicial view. But anti-hero, first of all, you're talking to your uncle hero. When did that joke come to you? And how long have you been waiting to say it? Just minutes ago. I thought we should get Leslie in here. She could be your anti-hero. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So an anti-hero is, you know, in the literary world at least, is someone who, you know, is the protagonist, often the protagonist of a piece, but doesn't show traditional protagonist elements. Often shows flawed elements, right? And nevertheless, tends to survive, prevail, or triumph through those flaws. And I think the last time I gave examples of people like Clint Eastwood characters are flawed heroes. I mean, you know, clearly he's this kind of freewheeling, murderous guy, but somehow he's the protagonist of our piece. Or Huck Finn, you know, who's completely confused and he's going south down a river when he's supposed to be taking Jim north to freedom. You know, those are traditional anti-heroes. And I think that she characterizes herself in that role here.

But this is a darkly humorous piece. Agreed. And I think if I knew more about psychology, I would want to spend more time on this piece. Because she uses humor. And, you know, humor can be used a variety of different ways. It can be engaging. But it can also be used to cover over problems. And here she's revealing problems and often counterterrorism.

which is the revelation in a sense of humor. Yeah. And I wonder what's going on inside her head that she doesn't even acknowledge or realize or understand. Interesting. Yeah. But since I'm not a psychologist, I'll leave that out there for you guys who are. Yeah, if you are a psychologist. I'll just get in touch.

Throw it out there and say, yep, I acknowledge that it is. So, I mean, obviously the first thing that I noticed when I'm reading through, on my first read-through, I look for rhyme and rhythmic patterns and things like that. And there's clearly a consistent rhyme scheme. I mean, wiser afternoons, people, room. So you've got A, B, C, B, right. So you've got this quatrain rhyme. You have the same kind of thing rolling in the pre-chorus, devices, vices, crisis, time, dreaming. leaving, scheming time, you know, so DDD-E, F-F-E, F-F-F-E.

And this remains fairly consistent throughout the work. There are some elements, some examples of internal rhyme, devices, prices, vices. Yeah, I love those. I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah. So I'm thinking, okay, we're rolling along with some good poetic elements. I mean, I'm beginning to see why she wanted to choose this song because there are strong

poetic elements in it. The other thing I noticed, you know, when I go back and do addiction study, I'm looking for what types of words does she use? The first thing that just spanks you in the face is the use of Dexis. It's spelled D-I-E-X-I-S. It's a literary term that describes a sort of proximal description or use of words. So in this case, it's proximal to her. The Dixus or Dexas that she uses all phom.

focuses on the use of the words, I, me, my. Okay. And if you go through and count the number of times, she uses I, me, my, and I did, they add up to over 60 uses. Yeah, I was going to say, it's like basically in every line, at least ones. Well, and I went through in this particular one and enumerated the lines, so we have 48 lines. Okay. And more than 60 uses of I, me, my.

This is a very self-focused poem. I was going to say, so this is your favorite so far because you love confessional poetry. Yeah, you know, if you're an anti-confessionalist, then this is probably not your jam. But nevertheless, it still has some real strengths. Okay, so let's get into the, oh, I'm sorry, I do have to, I made a little marginal note over here that I thought was kind of funny. When I read the title, Anti-hero, and I thought about her role in society and culture, you know, and I understand now from our conversations and going through 20 of these songs. She kind of undergoes a shift from being America's sweetheart early to being the somehow evil dating, serial dater person later. And it made me think of a Nike ad from Charles Barkley.

Okay. So if any of you remember the 1994 Charles Barkley, I loved it. I thought it was great. Charles Barkley comes out and says, I am no hero. he said in the commercial, just because I can dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids. Oh, okay. Yeah, and I, you know, I do kind of like that, and I do take that to heart.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, just because we like, I mean, I love Charles Barkley. I followed his career. He's the round mound of rebound and always will be. I watched him when he played at Auburn as a college athlete. He was terrific. I think he's funny on TV. I love his commercials.

Yeah. You know, and I think that he does have a point that although we make stars of people in, in whatever venue, you know, a star of music, a star of athletics, a star of the film, stage, or screen, you know, they don't necessarily, they don't necessarily have to live up to that. Yeah. Right? They have their own lives. And that's kind of, that's when you were saying that something in her head is making her use humor in this song psychologically, I kind of do feel like. It is almost like her acknowledging that like these things that you say I'm so terrible for, like, like there's actual people doing horrible things, you know?

And like there's no reason that I should be in it, like, that people should hate me. Because I like dated some boys and like, you know, got a lot of money because of it. You know. I sing good music. I write good music. I make money. Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn't mean I have to be a role model for your 12 year old. Yeah, and people also say that like with, you know, she's, you know, she started her career when she was 16, but now she's 36. And it's like people don't want her to grow up and sing about more adult things like she does on her last couple of albums because like young girls are at her shows. And it's like, well, those are those young girls' mom's job to teach them. And she's going to sing those old songs too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I just, I don't know, I thought of Sir Charles when I noticed the title and as I was reading through. And I thought, you know, it kind of behooves us to remember that I understand that she is a role model, but she doesn't necessarily have an explicit obligation to fulfill the job of role model. Yes. She can be an anti-hero. She can be a flawed role model. And she admits it in his poem. Yeah.

She says, now we're actually going to talk about the ball. She says, I have this thing where I get older, but just never wiser. Okay, this is like the archetype of Taylor Swift writing. She takes a cliche and she shifts it. Yeah. So the cliche is older and wiser, but here she says she gets older, but not wiser. And I really like, this is close to my favorite line of the poem, Midnights become my afternoon. I like it too.

Right. Okay. So what does she mean by that? In some ways, this poem is about depression. Okay, so if midnight, usually in the afternoon, depressed personalities tend to be a little bit more happy, ebullient. Yeah, yeah. But depending on the level of your depression, maybe you don't have to. Maybe the depression is sunk that deeply.

On the other hand, it could also be a description of her actual daily schedule. Yeah, I've always wondered about that, too. It's like she's just up later. Right. And this album, she's like the thesis of the Midnight's album was the things that haunt me in the middle of the night. Okay. And see, to me, that's like a third type of thing. If the nightmares are intruding on the day, what kind of psychological problems do you have?

But it may just be an inversion of her schedule. You know, she sleeps late, she gets up, she writes, she has a responsibility to go to a recording studio or make public a public. appearances generally in the afternoon or in the evening. She has this weird inverted schedule and living that schedule takes a toll on your life. Right. Right. So, you know, multitative meanings for line two. And, you know, I love ambiguity.

So, yeah, I really like the line. When my depression works the graveyard shift, I like that line too. All the people I've ghosted stand there in the room. So depression works a graveyard shift. You know, we know what a graveyard shift is, right? The late shift. It's also personification. She is personifying her depression that works late at night.

It's also imagery and pretty terrific diction choice, you know, to talk about the graveyard shift. I mean, you know, because a graveyard. Yeah. Amongst the depression. Yeah. Right. So dank, dark, surrounded by death imagery. ghosts and then she goes immediately to I've ghosted standing there in the room so people she's abandoned

people she's left behind either in the business or in her personal life you know we don't know yeah probably both probably I would assume yeah right she ghosts ghosts are such a in the past like maybe since folklore are such a strong theme in Taylor's work they are a thing aren't they Yeah, because we had like in Lommel, we had like dancing phantoms on the terrace. Right. On speak now, she has a song called Haunted. So that's like way far back. But there's just like a lot.

There's ghosts throughout and from like beginning to end. And so I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, she has these in her closet. Uh-huh. Yeah. So. Yeah. And we've done four lines.

Okay. We go to the pre-course. I should not be left to my own devices. She can't be trusted to her own. You know, her own ideas, her own devices, as any antihero shouldn't. They come with prices and vices. So they have payouts and they appeal to her sinful side in some way, right? And she winds up because of them in crisis.

And then she sings tale as old as time, which is a song from Beauty and the Beast. It's my favorite Disney movie. Okay, so if I had had a vote, you know, it was actually nominated for Best Picture. I would have voted that year for Beauty and the Beast. I love that movie so much. I think it's a stunning film. I love the homage to sound of music and the opening scene where she's wearing through the village. Yeah, on the hill.

She winds up on the hill and we have the circular camera motion. And I love bringing the camera down through the chandelier in the ballroom dance scene. And you know there's no camera, right? right. It's animation. But I acknowledge that, but they do very clever things to make you have that cinematic feel. So let's just

talk about Disney films. So it's an allusion to the song and she wakes up screaming from dreaming so this nightmares are pervasive in her life. Again, internal rhyme. One day I'll watch as you're leaving

because you got tired of me my scheming for the last time. So she acknowledges that she's a scheming person and she is she going to stop the person from walking out the door? No, she's going to watch. Just going to watch. Yeah. I can't ever decide if this is like about a person like she's literally talking about like the relationship that she's in like this person that knows her on a personal level is going to leave or if it's more like the day that society and the swifties and everyone decides that we don't like her anymore. And she's going to to be out of the public light.

Actually, you just jumped right to my second page. I'm so sorry. No, you know, I wondered exactly the same thing. I thought, okay, we certainly know who's talking here. It's the eye. Yeah, yeah. 60 times. Definitely about her.

Yeah, but then who is the interlocutor? Who is the person with whom she's talking? Is it the person in the mirror? Is it herself? Is it a lover who walks out the door? or is it the fan base or the media generally? Right. Right.

And I, you know, again, I love ambiguity and I think it's all three. I think so, yeah. So I think she's got multiple audiences here and she's trying to address them all at the same time. So, and I mean, I would call that nice work, actually. Yeah. So I like it. I do like that pre-chorus. It's very fun with the dreaming and the leaving and the scheming and the prices and devices and crises.

Well, and I also thought that. lines 12 and 10 and 11, the one day I'll watch you as you're leaving because, you know, of our consistent scheming may even elicit a sense of fear of abandonment. You know, so now we're back into our psychological interpretation and we really need help here. Yeah, I mean, because it feels like she acknowledges that fear of abandonment, but she's so passive in her depression, depressive state. She's not going to do anything about it. You can't do anything about it.

No, or won't. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Then she goes into the chorus where she kind of greets this fictive person. So I'm interested in the, in what we see when we see the video. Okay, yeah. Because this one was a single, so it does have an actual music video.

Oh, okay. So we'll get to see that. It's a fun one. And we also have her just like talking about the song a little bit. too. Oh, okay. That's quick. But yeah, I mean, that's what I wondered if it was just one of those lyric.

Yeah, no, we have an actual music video for this one. Okay. So, yeah, when she says, it's me, hi, I'm the problem. It's me. Yeah. You know, I wondered if someone, like, walks in or that kind of thing. Yeah, it does feel like she is. She's saying, like, I never, I stared at the next lines.

I stared at like directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. But it does feel like she's like, it's me, high, like talking to herself in the mirror almost. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I do like that idea that the problem is me. Yeah. I mean, it's very self-acknowledged, self-ownership.

It's like, yep, I'm it. Which is so funny because in relationships, that's something we seldom say. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's always your fault. Unless you're really breaking up and you just want to dump the guy. Yeah.

Then it is. Oh, it's not you. It's me. Yeah. And see you. So at bedtime. Everybody agrees. At tea time.

Oh, excuse me, at tea time. Everybody agrees. You know, why tea time people are talking in the afternoon, having a break. Yeah. And so it's kind of a water fountain discussion. Yeah. And who are they talking about? Her.

Yeah, Taylor Swift. Do you know about tea, like spilling tea? Do you know this phrase? No. Okay. So I think there's like a double meaning with tea time because that's like your original, that's like the first image that comes to my mind is like women sitting around like gossiping at an afternoon tea, you know.

But also like spilling tea in today's vernacular means like you're gossiping, you're, you're like, if I came to you and was like, Uncle Jerry, I have some major tea. That would mean like I have something. Okay. I have something to tell you that is like gossipy and you're going to love it because it's going to be juicy. That's an expression, by the way, I promise never to use. Yeah, that's probably for the best. I also don't really use it because.

I also feel too old for it. I mean, at a certain age, six, seven just loses its magic. Yeah. And we are all that age. Yeah. Okay. So I kind of feel like it's both of those things. It's like they're drinking tea and spilling the tea.

That's good, though. I like that. Yeah. And the next line is, again, one of my favorites in this poem. I'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. So she looks in the sun, which is a metaphor. for self-destructiveness. And then the mirror is also a metaphor for self-reflection.

Right. Right. So she will be self-destructive. That's okay. Yeah. But she won't think about the reasons why or how. That's not okay. Yeah.

Never introspective. Right. Always just out there ruin and stuff. Which I think we can like kind of say is absolutely not true of Taylor. But I feel like her body of work is incredibly like, introspective and self-examining. And I think that this is self-examining. Yeah, yeah.

So she's saying she's not, but she really is looking into the mirror here. Yeah. And I also wondered if the sun in the mirror were references to tabloids. Oh, you're right. UK, because we're at tea time. Right. You're at tea time. Yeah.

The sun and the daily mirror. Interesting. Yeah, are two of the best slash worst. Worst. Worst, yeah. Tabloids in the UK. Yeah. So, yeah, if you hit the same.

the front page. Not great. Not great. Either you're in the underground reading about it or you're at tea, I guess. Yeah. That's interesting. I never picked up on that. Yeah, I saw that and I thought, oh, sun and mirror.

That's too much. It must be exhausting, always rooting for the anti-hero. So, you know, again, my note is, who's she addressing? Is she addressing her friends? Is she addressing her fans? Is she addressing this person who she says hi to? And I think it's all of those. Yeah.

Okay. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this next verse. Oh, the monster verse. Yeah, well. Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby. Or should I use the high-pitched voice. No, I don't think you should. No, okay.

Don't even try. Okay, so during COVID, when I was homeworking, I worked from home. And, I mean, it was just awful in education. You know, I didn't teach, but I was a dean of liberal arts. And so I had, I have to do among other things, evaluate faculty. And so how do you evaluate them? You drop in when they had a synchronous lecture or you look at their website and write an evaluation of it. Yeah, how fun.

Yeah, I know. It was kind of awful. We had all those, you know, meetings online and that sort of thing. And in the meantime, after I was done with my very busy work schedule, Leslie and I would binge watch shows. And among other things, we binge watched 30 rock. Okay. So you know sexy. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a whole deal. And I'm wondering, is she referencing that? I do think so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like a reference to that and also just using that to show that.

show that like everyone else is like small and cute and fun and fun to be around and then she's just like this like giant life force you know so if you haven't seen the 30 rock episode uh yeah go and look look up i think it's season five when i was i was i was trying to see which which season it was today yeah well and it works in this particular sense because the woman who is the sexy baby. She's got a high-pitched, cute, see-voice, and she always wears very revealing tops. And she prances around, and she tries to demonstrate her sexuality. And really what she's doing is she's hiding. Right. Right. Because she has a relationship that she's hiding from, and I won't give any more than that, because it's really a fun, it's a fun moment in the show.

What a great show. Yeah, when that's revealed, I know it's just, it's just hilarious. And it works because essentially the whole persona of the sexy baby is a facade, right? It's a mask that she puts on. And so Taylor Swift says, I feel like everybody is a sexy baby and I'm the monster. So yeah, she has to pretend to be the sexy baby sometime, but internally she's a monster on the hill. Yeah. And she's too big. which I found to be interesting

the girl got a weight problem a self-image problem well there is a little bit of that in the music video actually we're not going to see that because it got taken out there was a whole thing where in the music video she steps on a scale and the scale says fat really

and like this whole song is very clearly her talking about all of these insecurities and all the things that people say about her and all of the things that she feels like she's doing wrong and is wrong about. And there was such an uproar. People got so mad that she used the word fat, which is insane to me, but whatever. And they took it out of the music video. So suddenly she's fat shaming people.

Yeah. You know. Okay. Like she's not allowed to like, whatever. It was about herself. I feel like you're allowed to do whatever you want about yourself, but I guess not. Yeah. You know, I wondered if it was just because she's a big girl.

I mean, you know, which I didn't realize. And we talked about this. My wife and I went to the Texas State Fair. Oh, there are fun times, people. If you're in the five-state area, be sure and stop by the Texas State Fair in October. It is the best people watching. It is pretty fun. And it's hilarious.

There are these archetypes of state fair going, for example, the butter sculpture. And I am not kidding. There is this massive sculptor. made entirely out of butter, kept in a freezer with a big glass window. And I have made a butter sculpture record over the years. What? Yeah, I'd take pictures every year of the butter sculpture. What's your favorite?

What's been your favorite? I did like one with a stagecoach. Oh, cute. Yeah, it was a giant stagecoach entirely out of butter. That's what we do here in Texas. Just for fun. Anyway, in the Hall of State, it's this terrific building. The thing was started in 1936.

Oh, wow. Yeah, on the Texas Centennial. And it was all done in Art Deco style, and it's still there, beautiful buildings. If you love Art Deco, it is. This is really fun. Anyway, one year, just a few years ago, they had a display of Taylor Swift's concert outfits. And so we went in to see them. and they were so small.

I thought, oh my, she must be really petite. And then you said, no, she's like almost six feet tall. Yeah. And I thought, well, then just the outfits are... Just the outfits are teens. See? Okay. On that same note, this is not important, but I've always known her to be 511.

Like, I've always thought that she was 511. And then in the docu-series, she's like, I'm 5-10. And I'm like, wait, what? We're rewriting history here. So I don't really know how tall she is. but very tall. But yes, I think this is a metaphorical too big.

Yeah, too big for her life is stupid. Her life is too big. Yeah, her fame is too much to handle. Yes, I thought so too. So,

yeah, metaphorical. And maybe literal in a subconscious way. I know. Yes. We're doing the psychological interpretation anyway. You know,

we have like these Instagram accounts where like we break down, like we're one of them. We break down the lyrics. via the poetics. We have another Instagram account that her name is Bridget. She's great.

We've talked a little bit. She breaks down the musical elements and why the music is there. And I feel like now we need a psychologist that probably does exist that breaks down the psychology in Taylor's lyrics. And we need that person

whoever runs that account to come on and talk about this. What's going on in her head space that she fashions herself too big? You know, and it goes great with a word that I particularly like, nice diction, great word choice, lurching toward your favorite city. You know, so, yeah, she's too big. Her concerts are too big. The price of her ticket is too big.

And it's lurching. It's just giant thing, lurching towards you. Yeah. Yeah. And a great word. Agreed. Pierce through the heart never killed. You know, you just can't knock her out.

She's just going to be there and keep going to. going. So the pre-course, did you hear my covert narcissism? I disguise as altruism. So she just comes out. And I mean, how do you say covert narcissism? Because this is overt narcissism, you know. Interesting.

Yeah. So she's admitting to being a narcissist, again, where's your head? And she's pretending to be altruistic. So she is, I don't know, covert and disguised are two antithetical words, right? If you're, I don't know, it's a funny line. Okay, hold on. I need you to dig into that. So.

Okay, so she's like, when I read it just as it's without delving into it, it's like, basically like, I'm a narcissist, but I try to hide it. try to hide it by being altruistic. Kind and altruistic. And yes. Okay. And then the next line is like some kind of congressman. No, she doesn't say congresswoman? Yeah.

Okay, so she gives us a simile. Yeah. But so Congress people she sees politicians are inherently glad handing, smiling, hiding the fact that they're real narcissists. Yeah. So I like the covert and disguise because they, I said their antithetical They kind of mean the same thing, right?

And it's what she's hiding from us, but also hiding from herself. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just, I found it really interesting. And then she says that's a tale as old as time. Politicians, performers have always been that way. Yes, yeah. Right.

I mean, you know, I wonder what we would have done with the number of, for example, gay and lesbian performers of the past, you know, Randolph-Sky. I think was gay. And, you know, I mean, if it had come out in the 1930s and 40s that this cowboy hero was gay or Barbara Stanwyk was a lesbian. Yeah, definitely not allowed.

Yeah. And, you know, what do you mean Barbara Stanwy? She's the mother on Big Valley, you know. She's got children for good to sakes. Well, yes, no. Sometimes these things happen. Yeah, you know. And so it is interesting that throughout time,

we have we've had to hide aspects of ourselves as performers and I think tragic I think sad yeah for sure yeah and I think that may be part of the truth of the song she says I wake up screaming from dreaming one day I'll watch you as you're leaving so it's pretty much the same yeah except for that last sign yeah for the last time because you got tired of my scheming and this time she says and life will lose all its meaning for the last time. Yeah. Because once everybody's gone, it's all over. Right.

The chorus is the same. Yes. And then the bridge, I was confused by the bridge. I do have to admit, if I were her poetic editor, I would say, you know, you're introducing a fictional narrative in the middle of a poem about yourself, of a confessional style poem in which you're examining your own narcissism. I didn't get it. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just like these are those, like, this is her up at night.

These are those things that she's waking up from dreaming. And it's like even her family that she imagines that she's going to have, you know, 30 years in the future, even those people are only in it for the money and they don't even really love her because she's just an anti-hero. They're only waiting for her to die. I made my, you know, it looks like 2019's Knives Out scene with the family waiting around for the will to be read and he just gives everything to have someone else. Again, I won't spoil the movie.

But yeah, there are a lot of those scenes. And I get that. And I also get the very interesting, again, you know, where's our psychologist? Because she's talking about her daughter-in-law, killing her for the money, waiting on her death. Well, she doesn't have any children. Right. You know, and so I wonder if this is psychologically her fear of missing out. Like she's not going to even have kids.

Right. She may not have kids. So she may not have the evil daughter-in-law who isn't a blood relative, but as someone that her son made the mistake of marrying, she doesn't have a relative. Interesting. Yeah. You know, I thought that that's her. That's like almost another like abandonment thing because it's like I'm going to end up without these people at the end of my life.

I'm just going to be alone. I'm not even going to have kids and like. Right. Yeah, I got back to that fear of abandonment note that I wrote. for the person walking out on her. You know, the son that she doesn't have, you know, she has a nightmare about the daughter of this, I mean, the wife of the son she doesn't have.

Yeah. You know, how many layers of sadness can we stack on top of that? And I just didn't, you know, and she's laughing. Everybody realized after the reading of the will that she's laughing at us up from hell. like she's this, again, vindictive monster. And she's in hell. So she's obviously led a bad lie.

Yeah, she's a terrible person. Right. And that's okay because she's laughing down there because they don't get anything. Wow. You know, I guess that this, the fictional narrative inserted into a confessional poem to me doesn't work. Yeah, like takes you out of, or not maybe it takes you out of it, but it just doesn't, it doesn't make sense for you. I mean, I understand it's relevance to her fear of a ban. idea, but it feels like it deserves its own poem.

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So it feels like, you know, I would have edited that out and said, you know, if you want to revise this and expand it into another narrative. Yeah, keep this one separate. Then keep it separate. How are you picturing in your head?

Like, what do you think this song? You think this is like a sad sounding song or a happier sounding song? I have no clue. I am not. No, I mean, I was curious. I was curious to know. like if somebody actually walks in on her. Since it is so darkly humorous,

I think it might be a happier sound, actually. Yeah, because, I don't know. I feel like just reading it, it does feel like she does this sometimes where she has devastating lyrics with like a pop beat. And that is maybe a little bit. Like, I don't ever hear this song as like,

I always think this song is just kind of funny. And the way she performs it at the ERA's tour, like, is very, it's kind of silly, like, she's not taking herself too seriously. But when we're just reading them like this, I'm like, this does, this, this is a totally different tone than what the song actually is, I think. Yeah, I made a list. Oh, okay. So I went back through and I looked at the theme of self-deprecation.

Okay. The opposite of self-aggrandizement. The, how is she, how does she think of herself as an anti-hero? Okay. So in line one, she says she's older, not wiser. In line two, she maintains an inverted schedule. It's a nightmarish life. In line four, she admits to ghosting people.

In line five, she can't be left to her own devices. In line six, she admits to having vices. In line seven, she admits to having crises. In line 10, she passively watches while someone leaves her life. In line 11, she admits to being a scheming person. In line 14, she identifies herself as the problem. In line 16, she admits to being self-destructive, staring at the sun, and not self-reflective, can't look in a mirror. In line 18, she has a poor body or sexual image. 919, she is monstrous. In line 20, she is too big.

and lurching. Uh-huh. In line 21, she is eternally that way. Uh-huh. In line 22, she is a covert narcissist and a pretend altruist. Yeah. In line 23, she is a deceitful, self-serving congressman. And in line 34 through 37, with that scene, she is deceitful about her legacy and vindictive.

Well, she sounds pretty terrible. Well, she's definitely. Definitely an anti-hero. So, yeah, I've made the list of 18 different ways she is self-deprecating in the song. Yeah. And so I want to hear it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, because the rest is just, it's all the same repeats.

Okay, that's so interesting. It really, it really is, I don't know, I feel like the way that you're doing this where you're reading them first and then hearing the songs. Like I literally cannot do. I thought about doing it for the new album and I was like, I simply cannot. But I feel like it does, it, I don't know, it just like makes this. When you hear the song, you're hearing all the musical cues and you're like, oh, this is how I should feel about this song. And this is how Taylor feels. But then if you actually break them down like this, it's like, maybe those two things.

Yeah, if you list 18 ways she's awful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And who's saying it? Well, she is. Yeah. Right. She admits to being an anti-hero. So, you know, don't look to me for heroics. Just be entertained. Okay. That's so interesting. Okay. We're going to listen. Are you ready to listen now? Or you want to say something else? No, that's why I wanted a, I think we needed a psychiatrist here in the middle. And just hand them this list and say, what's up with this person? Give us your diagnosis. Yeah. Are they long for this? world. But again, you know, the song is also darkly humorous. Right. And so the question, I guess it begs the question, does the humor cover the truth or does the humor reveal that she is sort of looking

side eye at all these issues? Yeah, that maybe these are actual things that she does, but like are these big things like in the scheme of these are these big flaws in the scheme of things. I'm nevertheless okay. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So we're going to, first we're going to listen to Taylor talk about this song. It's very short.

It's like less than a minute, I think. And then we'll watch the music video. It's on great. And I'm wondering now if I should, no, we'll just watch the music video. I was going to say maybe we should watch the heirs to her performance. Because I just feel like she's not that serious in it. But we'll get there. We'll decide when we get there.

Okay. We'll be right back. Okay. That was fun. Not a bad song It's a very silly music video I mean yeah The video where she interrupts the

End of the video To have a scene with children play out A little interesting Yeah the part that you said you wanted to be removed Is like the big part of the music video Yeah it's kind of goofy isn't it Yeah I mean there were things in the video I found interesting

She tries to make a phone call and the phone's disconnected, which I think is very clever. Yeah. I mean, depressed personalities feel like no one's there for them. No one's listening. And so she rushes in a panic to the phone, pulls it up, and nope, nothing there. Yeah. And you were right when she says, it's me.

It's literally her, which is pretty clever. So she's forced to look in that mirror. And it's not really her. It's the performance tailor. It's like the Taylor that's, it's capital T, capital Swift. Right. So where's the real Taylor Swift? Yeah.

Is it the sad and secure one trying to make a phone but nobody's there? Or is it the one that's, you know, decked out in a Spangley outfit ready to perform? Yeah. And in fact, it's neither. Yeah. You know, and I do like it that they were jumping on the bed and at one point the Spangley Taylor makes her, you know, just gives her a shove off. She gets shot in the heart. She pulls out the arrow and there's no blood.

There's glitter. Glitter in the egg, glitter in the blood. She throws up glitter, purple glitter. It's just all glitter. And she says there is no secret message. Which is funny because you're always looking for Easter eggs. Always. She says, nope, not here.

Just like, guys, calm down. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I thought it was fun. I thought it was still intrusive that the funeral scene. Maybe that's, maybe that's the thing. Maybe those are her intrusive thoughts. Maybe they are. Yeah.

I think, I think, um, a series of good counseling sessions could be in order. There were, this was a long time ago, but somebody asked her if she had ever been to therapy. And she was like, no, I just feel really sane. Oh, okay. And it's like, girl. Yeah. I hope that's changed by now. I think it's an interesting work.

Yeah, it's very different. Like, this feels very different than anything else you've read before, don't you think? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I did kind of, you know, I mean, just as on a good, bad scale, I did kind of like it, you know. I do enjoy listening to this song. It's not one of my favorites, not even one of my favorites on that album, but I think it's, like, fun, you know.

After I made my list, I do have to say that I, I mean, I kept looking over it and thinking, wow, this is, I mean, I understand that it's tongue and cheek and I understand that it's self-reflective, but it's also just a little scary that she worries about this many things. Yeah. You know, this many aspects of her, of herself and of her performance self. This, I think when Midnights came out, like she was not, she was not in a good place with her whole. life at all. I think probably a lot of this she doesn't feel is true anymore, but probably some of it

she still does. Yeah. Well, I don't think. On your worst days, you know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you ever lose that bifurcation of self between standing up in front of tens of thousands of people. You know, that can't be in some ways. It can't ever be your genuine self.

Right. Yeah. You're just sitting around in pajamas and socks. Yeah. You know, again, I go back to Charles Barkley. it says, yeah, I was really good at what I did. That doesn't mean I should raise your children for you. Right, exactly, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's really on you. Yeah. Shall we grade this one? Yeah, let's do it. All right. Okay, for anti-hero, we need to grade it on lyrical strength. I did like the rhyme scheme, you know,

and there were several earmarks of her writing the shifted cliches, a kind of sprinkling of metaphors and a couple of similes, you know, I mean, 92. Okay. Narrative and structure. I really think that she missed, I mean, I'm going to say if I just heard the song, I think I would have, the whole daughter-in-law thing would have passed me right by. Okay, yeah.

But as a work of literature, I think that that could be edited. So I'm going to say 88. Okay. Production and atmosphere. I kind of like the song. Yeah. You know, I mean 94. Yeah.

Her and Jack. Lore and literary references. Oh, you know, we're back to monsters and ghosts, you know. I like the verse 2 with the sexy baby and the monster. And I did like the line about staring directly at the sun and never in the mirror. You know, I think it's maybe it's 94. Okay. And emotional impact.

Ooh, you know, I'm glad I'm not that person. Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm glad I don't have to suffer the pressures of getting up in front of tens of thousands of people. I also don't have the pressures of spending $2 billion. But, you know, I think people would always love the one. and maybe not like the other. Yeah, absolutely. But it didn't have a very strong emotional impact on me.

It made me worry for her. Yeah. So maybe a 90. Okay. That gives us a 92. Okay. Yeah. A low A.

Solid. I do feel like talking again about why she chose this one for the songwriters Hall of Fame. I do kind of feel like it is very. different. And like she said when she was talking about it, she said, I really like this one because it's so honest. And I does feel like that is her actually talking specifically about herself, not how somebody else made her feel, but how she makes her herself feel. That does feel different than a lot of Taylor's work. And so it does make sense to me that she chose this one because it does stand out a

little bit from the others, I think. Right. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And there are a lot of performance pressures and performance anxiety, you know, just when I'm a classroom teacher, you know, standing up in front of a classroom can be a daunting thing. Yeah. So I used to do a lecture at a university for one of those big massive groups where I had MA students assigned to me, so there were 200 people in the class. I hated those. Yeah, well, I was the guy charged with entertaining you for an hour and 20 minutes.

And, I mean, I thought I did a good job until the day I noticed I hadn't zipped my pants. You know, and I wondered how many of the 200 students noticed that. And that's why I sit behind a desk now. Yeah, that's why you can only see this from here up on this podcast. That's right. That's right. But like you're entertaining people for an hour every week now. Okay, good.

Yeah, you're doing it. Yeah. You're a star. Anything else? No, I think I'm good. Thank you. Okay. So we will be back next week with another one of those two Hall of Fame songs that were chosen.

Make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, all the other podcast platforms. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Swiftian ScholarPod. You can now follow Uncle Jerry on Instagram at Dr. Uncle Jerry or Dr. Uncle Jerry. and you can follow me on Instagram at Angela Wyatt McDowell. All right. We did it. Did it. Okay.

Bye. Bye.