The Taproot Podcast - 🎸🎨Interview with A. Savage of the Parquet Courts Psychology of Visual Art and Music

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Andy Savage: A Multifaceted Artist Blending Rock and Visual Art 🎸🎨 Andy Savage is a tremendously talented artist, known for his contributions as the front man of the Parquet Courts, a groundbreaking rock band with seven acclaimed albums. Beyond his musical endeavors, Savage also showcases his artistic prowess through captivating visual art. His paintings exhibit elements reminiscent of Wassily Kandinsky's abstract expressionism, the playful modernism of Paul Klee, and the murals of Emil Bisttram. In this interview, Savage generously shares insights into his artistic process and how his personality intertwines with his creative endeavors. It offers a unique opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of his artistry and the motivations behind his work. Be sure to explore Savage's diverse body of work, both in music and visual art, through the following links: Music: Visit the official Parquet Courts website at https://www.parquet-courts.com/ to dive into their groundbreaking rock compositions and immerse yourself in their distinctive sound. Visual Art: Discover Savage's beautiful impressionist artwork by visiting his official website at https://a-savage.com/. Delve into his paintings and explore the visual realm where he expresses his artistic vision. We are incredibly grateful for Savage's contributions to the world of art, both through his music and visual creations. His talent and creativity enrich our cultural landscape, leaving an indelible mark on the realms of rock, indie rock, punk, art rock, and fine art. #parquetcourts #rock #indierock #musicians #psychology #therapy #psychotherapy #punk #punkrock #artrock #painting #art #artist #guitar #fineart Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.com/ Check out the youtube: https://youtube.com/@GetTherapyBirminghamPodcast Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.podbean.com/ Podcast Feed: https://feed.podbean.com/GetTherapyBirmingham/feed.xml Taproot Therapy Collective 2025 Shady Crest Drive | Hoover, Alabama 35216 Phone: [phone] Fax: [phone]  Email: [e-mail] The resources, videos and podcasts on our site and social media are no substitute for mental health treatment. Please find a qualified mental health provider and contact emergency services in your area in the event of an emergency to a provider in your area. Our number and email are only for scheduling at Taproot Therapy Collective are not monitored consistently and not a reliable resource for emergency services.    

Hi, this is Joel Blackstock with the Taproot Therapy Collective podcast. And this week I sat down with A. Savage, a musician and visual artist. His band, the Parquet Chords, is one of my favorites. They have a thoughtful kind of art rock uh insight into our culture that's sometimes acerbic sometimes humorous uh always very fun to listen to and he has very interesting uh visual art that kind of suggests movement emotion um fresh interesting and graphic uh we'll link to both of his websites for his projects and the show notes. But I hope you guys enjoy the interview, The Psychology of Music with Ace Savage.

And we're enormously grateful that he sat down to talk with us. So without further ado, I'll go ahead and roll that interview. One of the reasons that we're having you on is to talk about kind of the relationship to trauma and creativity and just the creative process of the unconscious, but also just what people see into the mind of a creative that's successful. Because we work with a lot of younger people, a lot of people that like your music, a lot of people that just like creativity in general. I think being able to see what somebody's processes is so empowering, especially right now when everything is so atomized. Um, we started this,

like we called it a social encounter group recently just because every clinician was hearing from everybody who was like, uh, you know, 20 to 30, like I don't want to go to church and I don't want to go to bars and I don't know anywhere else to meet people. And all my friends are on discord and it's either not healthy or it's, you know, limited. And how do I do that? And, you know, none of us had an answer. So, you know, we were like, okay, we're going to do this, this mixer.

And then y'all are encouraged afterwards to go out to eat and, you know, whatever. It's not therapy. It's really just an opportunity to encounter, you know, the creative and spiritual and personal aspect of life that we never get a chance to anymore you know yeah I mean that is something that is kind of disappearing or rather becoming more online is is people meeting and like well it's I mean it's a way that's just kind of affected culture really. Whereas one point like people would have met, you know, and you mentioned you mentioned church, but you know,

like at, at a show or like at some sort of place where like-minded people go. For me, it was like, I met a lot of my friends like in the DIY scene around the US. But you know, it's important to keep that, it's important to keep the quality of that sort of interaction because ultimately that is I think something that cultivates creativity and just genuine connection in a way that online interaction, though it, you know, it

does have its pros, just can't, you know. And that's something I've noticed is that things just kind of are part of culture and especially part of young people's culture is increasingly about being online which just doesn't it just doesn't provide the same thing well and it's interesting because i think that like you see kind of the boomers come up and a lot of their parents are you know coming from a harder economic situation than they had and they their parents kind of over provide for the boomers, you know, material support, but they don't give them a ton of emotional support.

And of course, this is just broad strokes, not everyone's experiences like this. And so the boomers kids, the millennials are more like, they're really into authenticity and this kind of personal journey. And it gets silly at a certain point where you're like you know well this brewery is going to have the edison classic light bulb hung up on the cast iron pipe to be raw and authentic and you know we're going to turn everything into every you know part of life into this high type of art and um you know i mean there's it's good but there you know it gets silly as that kind of takes over.

And then the millennials kids, it's like they're they grow up with this therapy language almost where they, you know, it's not that it's bad to have that level of personal development and search for, you know, your authentic self online. But, you know, you're like, all right, guys, it's time to take the ACT. And they're like, no, I need I need my 17th adjective in front of my sexuality or my particular brand of communism and it's like no that's that's fine you know but also you need to touch grass like you know you've got 13 people in kazakhstan that share your your politics you know and real life is happening yeah and it is nice that they're able to find those people and have that, you know, awareness of who they are earlier in life. But also there's just so few skills that even like my generation took for granted, you know, that was. So you were talking about before we started recording the way that the kind of therapy that we do.

Are you familiar? Kind of of do you have any kind of psychology background or have you been to therapy are you comfortable saying that if you have or i have but i you know the first time i ever went to therapy i was um i was 29 i was almost you know in my 30s so you know i went as an adult and it was not part of my culture growing up and it was I mean for most of my life it was something that I thought I would never need so you know I I came late to it so no I didn't grow up with the language of therapy like so I mean I know some people especially people that you know kind of grew up here in New York where I live and have lived for 13 years I know people who were born into therapy basically but that was not that

was not my experience at all yeah it is interesting and New York is like one of the only places where psychoanalysis psychoanalysis like pure psychoanalysis is still kicking you know it's just kind of normal for people here to talk about their analysts like it's a what do you hear something yeah and you don't I mean pure psychoanalysis really anywhere else it's just gone but it is still kind of around there maybe cuz Anna Freud settles there and it kind of has a established what do you call pure psychoanalysis is that I mean I mean because even like I don't really know

how to classify the therapy that that I've had but is that just like talk therapy laying down in the chaise lounge while someone takes notes pretty much yes and it's interesting you mentioned that I mean there it's a big conversation but the field starts with you know Freud says there's an unconscious and what it is is it's full of sex and violence and with, you know, Freud says there's an unconscious and what it is, is it's full of sex and violence. And then he, you know, Freud has this, he's raised by his mom that you're brilliant, you're going to be great. And he says, but his dad is extremely passive. His dad would get like beaten up in the street by anti-Semites and Freud would have these like the fantasies that his

dad was like Hannibal of Carthage and write about it like he needed to be dominant but he also couldn't assert himself in conflict there's this weird kind of thing where Freud put everybody up on this pedestal and it's like you're gonna be the bulwark that carries on my teaching and then they become a version of him that isn't good when they have their own ideas. And then he knocks them off and finds another one. And so Jung and Adler and Otto Rank and everyone, that happens. Jung, which I agree with a lot more, says, you know, the unconscious is not just sex and violence. Maybe that's what's in your shadow.

But there's these evolutionary forces that are kind of older than us that are in the unconscious and the ego is sort of reacting to them but to really heal and integrate you have to crack the ego open and start to feel some of this stuff which gets taken a lot of directions and so they're the short history of the profession just real quick is you know Adler and Freud and you know adlers about relationships, but they're dealing with an unconscious like, what is it that's bigger than us that we're not even though I'm thinking about this one thing, I'm, I'm

responding to a lot of forces beneath the surface. And when you have Reagan and Thatcher come in in the 80s, and healthcare is incredibly corporatized, and education is incredibly corporatized academics, then they corporatized academics then they say okay none of that's real and that's all coming like none of that is effective this is woo-woo we're not paying for energy patterns right the same time Beck is coming out with cognitive behavioral therapy which is a reaction to psychoanalysis and he's like what's the point in talking about why you smoke

cigarettes what your mom did to make you smoke cigarettes on the couch for 30 years why you smoke cigarettes the only thing that's real is behavior so we're just gonna measure behavior did the behavior change and you know there's some therapists that say they do cognitive behavioral therapy but you you get to know them and they are doing more than that but I mean pure CBT is you know so psychoanalysis you're saying what's the difference in that and like 40 and psychodynamic whatever you know psychoanalysis is just analysis there's no experience the therapist is very minimal you were just analyzing

what somebody's doing right now psychodynamic Freudian therapy you're maybe holding the role of the parent or you know saying well your relationship with me that's how maybe your relationship with other people are and this pattern pops up in here something so when behavioral cognitive therapy comes out you know I don't like it because we deal with trauma patients and it tends to retraumatize them because what you're doing with CBT is just moving anxiety around you're saying like okay well you drink six beers a day why don't you drink three beers a day and play three games of Monopoly okay now play six games of Monopoly drink no

beers you're cured because the number went down right now you know the thing behind the behavior yeah it's like where is that in your body how old is that you know we don't care how much beer you're drinking what do you feel when you're not drinking beer yes you know okay and and so that trauma-informed stuff that is using emotion is using the support ofical brain and the body is coming back because, I mean, really, it's coming back because, you know, insurance is realizing that it costs more money to put a bandaid on something forever, you know, than to treat it. But that process is messy and big. And the damage that's done to the profession in the 80s and 90s is just really profound. There's not enough people doing the stuff that heals trauma. But if you have somebody who has a dissociative disorder, a DID, and you start doing cognitive interventions, and you're like, well, just clap your hands, tell the anxiety to stop, eat three meals a day, go to church,

here's the symptoms of a healthy life, exercise, and they still are roiling and feeling terrible, you're psyching them up to be like, yeah, I can do this. Yeah, I'm going to do this thing, and I this thing I'm gonna feel better than they don't and you know that is a failure you know of the system I see okay thank you for that explainer yeah it's uh do you have any idea of kind of the therapy that you were in when you went to therapy in your 20s uh no not in my 20s i i started at 29. okay but i mean uh my 30s really i'm i'm 36 now so that's how long i've been doing it um yeah no it's it's it's not behavioral you wouldn't call it that um i i did learn i did learn a lot about yung and union archetypes uh through this person i talked to like so it is, I guess it would be considered analysis,

but I think I found the most, what I found the most helpful is just talking to somebody and them being you know just an observer just a mirror saying this is what I this is what I hear this is what I'm hearing you say I've heard you say this before that's been that's been important to me because that's not something you know for a long time I thought okay well you know I don't need therapy I've got all these friends I can talk to but that's not really true because your friends are colored by your relationships. You know,

they have their own perspective on you because they know you intimately. And it's, you know, there are complications within friendships where you don't always say exactly what you're hearing them say, you know, and you don't always point out, maybe for the sake of the relationship, the patterns of what they're saying or doing, you know. Sure, and even, you know, the amount of work that it takes to do a thorough kind of analysis, it's, your friends are, you know, love you and care about you, but it's not really fair, you know, to ask any group of people to do just the amount of work needed, you know, to really do that well well. Though here in New York, people do psychoanalyze each other all the time, so that's a part of the course. Yeah.

So you did some work with the unconscious and union architects and things. Did that language speak to you as a visual artist or a musician? Totally. Totally. Totally, totally. And I actually, I came across a copy of a book that Jung wrote called Man and His Symbols. Yeah. He wrote two chapters of it and his disciples wrote the rest of it, that kind of what is what turned me on to him as an artist and talking about, well, visual language and visual lexicons and iconography and how that's, you know, a lot of that can be interpreted to be in this lineage of symbols that have been, that we've been articulating since the dawn of

time, you know? And I also find that to be interesting with language as well, because in lyricism and poetry, there is also a lexicon, literally, words that we use that are symbols, you know. Language can be symbols and how really a lot of the times we're writing the same, the songs and the poems and you know even the movies and art that we make are kind of ways of addressing the same few ideas with these different symbols. So that I find interesting about Jung. Yeah, I mean, I think Chomsky's academic stuff kind of says that the sounds that we use are arbitrary.

That's the variable, but that there's kind of language trees all language develops the same. We're just plugging in different sounds regionally but that there's kind of language trees, all language develops the same, we're just plugging in different sounds, you know, regionally, but that there's just one kind of archetypal pattern to language, really. Right. And, you know, what a sound you associate with what word is, is up to the culture, but the way that it's done is pretty universal. And we can't change that, you know, even if we want to, the way that we talk and think

about it. Right, that informs our entire psyche and experience of the world yeah have you ever seen that what is it the there was a study they did like years back about they couldn't figure out you know why in these like Stone Age caves people were going to these places that were really hard to get to and they weren't particularly helpful with like shelter or anything and it ended up to be sound that you go to those areas and you can have this kind of early Stone Age psychedelic experience through echoes you know that you're that's cool no I've not heard of that that's cool these

places that are more resident you know and then there are some areas where the hypothesis is that you make these cave drawings and you put a fire in different places and it makes that Buffalo look like it's running or something but it you know that it was this kind of religious course yeah experience yeah shadow play yeah that's cool so yeah and you there's something about it that's pretty old you know the social animals are most vocal when something dies you know the real social animals when the lion cub dies the mom goes out and roars at god even though it's not practically going to do anything so there's a good idea you know that the first sound comes from this kind of awareness of death or some sort of deep emotional

spirituality about lions i'm sorry is that true about lions yeah it's actually it's all social animals like whales if you take the whale and you put it in the aquarium you know it does these like long vocalizing calls anything with spindle neurons that has that mammalian like relationship part of the brain um cool some animals actually have more than we do whales have like a lot more of a the emotional bonding connection part of the brain than humans do good for them yeah yeah yeah i hope i so you know it it's it's sweet and romantic, but then the way that we know that is that they grieve extra bad

when you stick them in SeaWorld, so that's also kind of sad. Yeah, that's terrible. You know, they may be feeling something that we don't even know how to feel. Isn't that awful? Well, so, you know, your band has changed a little bit, but I'm wondering, you know, what genre are you comfortable with? One, you know, it's rock and guitar rock. But I'm wondering when I think about the genre I would have put you in at different points in life, if it says more about the environment changing around you than it does about the genre changing.

Because the band's changed a little bit. But, you know, if I was in high school, I'd be like, yeah, that's punk. That's DIY punk. And then if I was in late high school I'd be like oh that's indie and then if I was in college I'd be like that then he doesn't mean anything that's college rock you know but how much of that is the barquet courts changing and how much of that is just the way we think about genre and lump things together moving around as well really my job as the artist to give you the language to define what I'm doing, I don't think, anyway.

You know, yeah, bands in most cases change and ought to change, and, you know, naturally so has parquet courts I don't think about really oh by the way you know we're this type of rock and roll band now but I mean if you were to get down to it yeah I mean we make rock and roll and that's that's it all kind of follow falls under that umbrella and if someone wants to call it, you know, whatever the hell, then that's fine. But, you know, it's the artist's job just kind of to make it, really. Would there be a genre that you were just like, no, that's wrong? If somebody called you SoundCloud rapper?

I mean, do you care? I'd be wrong because we don't operate really on SoundCloud. And, you know, I think really anybody that called us rat, you'd have to question really if they'd ever heard rat before because that confusion doesn't happen often. Sure. But so there's any genre that you get lumped into naturally, you're fine with, you don't think about it, you're just creating, and that's the secondary process that's... or less yeah more or less and do you

when you have like a could you do some visual art too you want an emmy is that right for the cover of something that you've done well it means they're giving out for television so i haven't i haven't really cut my teeth in tv yet but i I was, you're thinking that I was nominated for a Grammy for best like package design album art for the record, Human Performance. And so, yeah, that did happen. And I do all of the artwork for Parquet Courts, album artwork, obviously obviously but also like you know t-shirt designs and posters and stuff like that but aside from that I am also a visual artist and that's a huge

part of my life and that's you know that's that's that's what I spent a large amount of time doing and also that's how I make half sometimes more of my money is through my painting so I you know I have a whole other life that has to do with painting that maybe a lot of people don't know about there are people who kind of specifically follow me as a painter and then there there are you know obviously I get i get contact from fans a lot that they you know praise my artwork um a lot of times they're referring to like the stuff they see that i've done for parquet courts but there's you know i've got another life as a visual artist yeah well it's great stuff i mean and watching it kind of change with the music is

interesting too i mean do you feel like you're going into the same psychic territory when you're making visual art or do you feel like different projects? Well, it's a different set of tools. It's a different type of language really. One is communicating with sound and words and painting is, I mean, you're communicating a message but it's a different set of tools and the way that you the way that you experience those types of art is different as well like

well for example a song maybe you're experiencing it for two to three to four to five minutes at a time you know maybe you're looking at the lyrics maybe you're engaging with it in different ways but it's got to start in an end and you're using your ears painting the paintings just there it doesn't start with an end it's just there and so you have a different way. And so you have a different way to take information in. And it's not time-based like a song or an album is. And you're using a different part of your brain to observe it.

And as such, the creator is using different part of their brain to make it using a completely different set of, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's auditory language versus visual language, really. So they're similar, but they're also quite different. I mean, when you create those things, do you feel like you're chewing on the same part of you? You know, are you trying to kind of articulate a different thing? I mean, what's your creative process? It's all me. Yeah. I mean, yeah's it's all it's all me it all comes from me um I don't know if I've really uh I mean I'm a different yeah I guess I guess I'm trying

to tell different stories um when I'm painting than I am when I'm songwriting, perhaps. I can't, I haven't thought about it too much in a way that I could really articulate in a digestible way to you right now. But I mean, it's Yeah, it's it's a different there. They are different, you know, I guess the way when the way that they're married to me is is the album art you know okay courts that's kind of when they come together because in pretty much all cases the album art is based on the music you know so it's informed heavily by the music well and when you think about like i don't know when i say i wrote some fiction i also did some like surreal comedy earlier in my life and like one of the parts that was interesting is like I felt like if I knew what I was writing

like if I was trying to be like authoritarianism is bad and that's the point then what I was writing wasn't good you know but when I was chewing on an idea that I felt but I didn't know what it was you know then the art I got was better but that's harder and then it would be like you know years later sometimes where I'd look at it and be like oh that's what I was saying but I didn't know what it was, you know, then the art I got was better, but that's harder. And then it would be like, you know, years later sometimes where I'd look at it and be like, Oh, that's what I was saying. But I had no idea really what, you know, do you, is there a place you try and go into, you know, that's interesting because with both music and art, I like to know what I'm talking about first.

Now that's not to say that I know everything I'm going to express or that I'm you know that I you know have the most you know that I'm so articulate going into it but I at least want to know more or less what I'm trying to say. That that's the hardest part, I think, is deciding what, broadly speaking, a song or a picture is about. Once you have that, then that's kind of where the fun part starts, because then you start to say, well, how can I express that? You know, what words can I use?

What notes can I use? What keys can I use? What colors, shapes? How can I use light? And so it becomes an act of translation. What you're doing is you know what you're talking about, and then it's translating it into that media so right now I'm right now I'm really involved in both and and I'm writing a new record right now so so right now I'm I've got these

ideas and for songwriting for example really it's just kind of about knowing what you're talking about and then writing about it as much as you can and like finding the best ideas in there and then moving on from that and then finding the best words to express those ideas phrases you know what and do you think that most musicians work that way or do you care i mean is it just the medium or is that i don't know i don't know i don't i don't talk you know i've got a lot of friends who are musicians i don't talk about process with them really a lot because um i don't know uh that's i mean process is interesting and important but i don't know. That's, I mean, process is interesting and important, but I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily, when I hear a song, I don't necessarily think, I wonder, like, what steps they went through to write this. Unless it's bad, unless it's bad unless it's in visual art actually

um but uh you know my process that that's that's more or less what it is for me but also i don't really have a capital b process that i subscribe to and um that I use every time I'm gonna do something. Like it's always different. Sometimes, you know, a lot of times the lyrics come first. Sometimes they don't, sometimes melody comes first. And really for me, I mean, nothing really comes first. Most of the time they just are born separately

and are later part together and um I mean you did you come out of the Planet X record seeing it all like in the 90s early 2000s not at all no that I mean I remember it it you wouldn't have called it my thing at all really so when the when the earliest albums I mean was that all in new york what were what was going on with with you when you start the band you know over because it's been around a while um yeah we started in 2010 uh we were all living in new york the band started in new york uh i lived in denton texas uh before i lived in new york and I was in bands there. That Planet X scene, that was in Bloomington,

Indiana. And they had a Texas foothold somewhere too, like Fort Worth and Bloomington was like the two. I don't know a ton about it. I knew friends that were involved in it. You know, I do know someone from Fort Worth who moved to Bloomington who was into it, but I mean, that kind of

scene was around, I that kind of scene was around I did kind of like that band this bike is a pipe bomb there from Florida but that I was I was more into like non folky punk I was going to like punk and so but I mean I in spirit it's cool cool, you know, but no, the band started having nothing to do with that, really, in New York in 2010. Well, it seems like y'all's album, I mean, the sound is, you know, it's changed over time, but it's still recognizable as the same band. But the albums are kind of chewing on pretty different things. I don't know. And that's my perspective.

I don't know what yours is but you know the second to last one there was kind of like a surreal you know anger or you know parody of something you know the most recent i hear more of like maybe acceptance or grief i mean i don't know what do you what are you going for? Oh, I mean, I don't know if I was necessarily thinking of either of those concepts with either of those records purely, but that doesn't mean that you're wrong because, you know, interpretation by the audience is really matters more than intent by the artists I think yeah and and I think maybe the only record that I can really truly say kind of has a theme or has like a thing that I wanted it to be about, well, maybe there's a few, but Sunbathing Animal comes to mind of being a record that's kind of about this duality of freedom and confinement.

And I think if any of the records about grief, it's probably human performance but you know to me there's a lot of anger in the record wide awake which is I think the one that you're talking about being yeah that's it's almost you know not parodying things but just a complete you know there's a willingness to use humor and anger simultaneously well that you have to really, I mean, in order to keep from going insane as an American and that record was recorded in 2017, a time that truly seemed insane.

And so, I mean, there are angry bits of that record too, but I also think it's kind of joyful as well. Yeah. And I would say the same about um all of them really because anger is definitely a a thing that i think at least on a like subconscious level has to be somewhat there in rock and roll um and uh because that's what separates it from you know the rest really and but but but joy doesn't have to be there but it does just kind of it does just kind of give some depth and context to things and i don't know helps the medicine go down so to speak and i i guess when i was saying that wide awake sounded angrier like it seems like

the last two albums are kind of chewing on the same thing but there's more of a acceptance you know it's a little calmer you know uh wide awake is is more kind of in your face uh perhaps that's perhaps perhaps like uh maybe risk maybe acceptance isn't the right word maybe resignation is the better word which is an act that we've all kind of done as americans in the past few years i think well yeah and they they both seem like they're dealing with just exhaustion about that there's too much that it's kind of endless that there's uh just this kind of uh i don't know there's a lot of like listing a lot of categories breaking them down you know almost kind of trying to tire out the i don't know i mean it's it's hard because

you're mixing metaphor when you're trying to talk about music and like what you feel versus you know what's actually there in the lyrics or whatever but um i mean i do hear a lot of that um just this exhaustion with the complexity and the quantity of i think that that exhaustion could be considered a recurring theme in parquet courts for sure since since the beginning so i mean the when I think about like punk rock and anger angry music you know there's kind of there's a cathartic anger of just I'm gonna get up and scream and it feels good that you get sometimes and then there's like a more kind of mindful anger of like which I was associated with the more mature punk records that was like, this is bad. I'm going to articulate the problem with the system, you know? And, and I think that's why you're like with punk, you got more,

it was almost more ethical where there would be like, you know, the bands were associated with the nonprofit that served food or protested the art core or, you know, the thrift store or something. But there was a relationship between the music and the lifestyle that was not just aesthetic like some genres and so i mean it sounds like you your albums are articulating a problem in a mindful way that you are angry about but you're not just getting up and screaming into the microphone because you it feels nice you know um i am doing that but i'm not just doing that i guess um and you know? But I don't know, maybe not. I am doing that, but I'm not just doing that, I guess. And, you know, part of songwriting for me is about,

yeah, like it is a form of therapy for me cause it is about processing things. And, I mean, I am using my voice and I'm using the way I use my voice. Let me say that again. I'm using my voice and I'm in a way where I can express anger through like volume and shouting. But I'm also using my words, too. So I'm doing both actually but yeah I mean I find that songwriting

especially writing lyrics is kind of a way to process through one's thoughts and you know I'm not like providing solutions for anybody like it it's I'm just like I'm just as you know confused and in some cases angry as anyone else's it's just me going through it and and that's you know if that's that that can be something that other people can last on latch on to because they can identify with it you know well and it seems like i mean it kind of flares up and then calms down but i can't really think of a lot of bands that have been around 10 years that are doing guitar rock and big like it seems like i mean maybe it's the democratization of everybody can go out and buy a soundboard and

copy and paste loops and stuff um if they want to make music but i mean you guys, maybe it's the democratization of everybody can go out and buy a soundboard and copy and paste loops and stuff if they want to make music. But I mean, you guys, I mean, it's like y'all, Modest Mouse. I mean, there's a couple bands that have been around a while, but Guitar Rock just seems like it's been kind of on a slow decline for a while, you know, with resurgences here and there. Do you think that's just that it's harder? Or what do you notice, you know, when you're more in the mainstream or less in the mainstream even though you're doing the same thing well I mean I I really what I think it is I don't I don't know it is maybe it has been de-emphasized in our culture writ large, rock and roll, I guess. But I also kind of think that there are probably more bands than ever, but they're just not, you know,

it's just not at the central focus of culture the way it was, you know. But, I mean, if you go on a app like Bandcamp for example or SoundCloud like there's all sorts of bands out there like they're all over the place we don't like it's it doesn't it doesn't occupy the same niche in our culture that it once did say I don't know and you in the 90s, which in my lifetime, kind of the peak of alternative rock music on the radio, alternative rock music at the central focus of culture, which I think because of that, we're still tethered to it

and constantly comparing the state of rock and roll to that moment. And if you compare it to that moment then yeah sure uh there are not there are not radio stations beyond college stations that are playing new rock bands and increasingly fewer radio stations most places also. Sure, yeah. And there's, so the way that you find new rock music is different than it was in the 90s. It's, you know, you have to, you have to like find new ways to seek it out.

For some people that's like band camp, but really, I mean, I think kind of the best way is becoming involved in a scene in a community of bands that are playing together and that's that's that's still there and it's uh i mean it i think with the pandemic put that on pause for a lot of people but um that will still it will still continue to be a thing i think think. I mean, there are a lot of young bands that are popping up and there's scenes like there's like the scene in London right now, specifically like South London

where there's all these kind of new rock bands coming out of and people are getting really into it young kids are getting really into it so you know it's just different really it's music the way that we kind of value music and the way that music

is applied to our culture is just vastly different than it was 25 years ago well and the point where you're talking about that, you know, that rock was such a big cultural force, how much of that do you think had to do with it being a threat? You know, that it looked that was kind of the scariest thing that was the threat to the mainstream or whatever at that point.

And then it moved on to, well, now we're more scared of these other things. I mean, it seems like culture and politics like to platform something to attack and that a lot of American culture has that kind of dualism. You know what? How much of it was that at that point? And in culture, the scariest thing out there for my kids to like was this cool guy with a guitar. He looks like this. I don't know if it was. I mean, I don't know if it was that kind of threat. Like maybe the last time I remember a threat of that level, as far as in rock music in American culture would be like, I don't know, Marilyn Manson in the late 90s or something.

But I think really what it was is like alternative rock kind of leech reached its logical conclusion when it became mainstream like when bands on the college rock scene started to become mainstream like you know like REM Rollins band, Nirvana, become these sort of mainstream things, then it's got to kind of reset, you know, and been a few moments a few examples parquet courts perhaps being one of them although we've never had the sort of like mainstream success that those fans i mentioned have where people go back in and they they're they're interested in it and then you know a few bands come out but also just like you know the the the way that new bands uh like i said get put out there is just different i i don't I don't really know I don't really know if it has some so much to do with being scary or not I just

don't know if that's been the aim besides like metal I don't know I don't necessarily mean scary like it's like you know gonna tear down society but it's and I also don't want to say edgy you know but there's something that you know was different was new was titillating you know at one point and then that goes away it comes back you know and different yeah and that's I mean that's that's still happening like you know a lot of this music that they that people are calling like hyper pop right I think I think is kind of unnerving and scary and um and like alien in a way that rock and roll sort of used to be I mean let's be honest it is really truly hard to shock people now

um and we're able to shock people in art um it's you've you've you've accomplished something I think a lot of that music like the hyper pop kind of stuff I don't dig it's not my thing at all but I can recognize that it is sort of fulfilling that function of being somewhat shocking and not sounding like anything that came before it which is you know you know, we can all, we should all hope for that, I think, as artists as you're trying to do something, even if you're working in rock and roll, which is this very kind of referential

kind of codified language, being able to do something that is new to people's ears. It's such a rare thrill. And do you have anything that is coming out? You want to promote anything that is coming up? Not really. I'm working on a solo record right now, but I can't really promote it in any way other than to say that I'm working on it. No, actually at the moment, no, not really.

You've caught me. People want to see visual art. Can they go somewhere to see that? You know, I haven't updated my website in a long time, but I do have one. It's a dash savage.com. Maybe this will be the, maybe this will be the motivating factor to me updating it.

I'm by and large, pretty bad at the internet and promoting myself on it. Well, it's kind of the exhausting part. I think to the creative is the marketing and making in detail stuff. It's never what you want to do. It's always been a struggle for me. That's why I'm grateful with Parkhead Chords

that we have a record label that does all that kind of stuff for us. Well, the visual art is neat. I mean, there's just not a ton like that. And it is gallery art. But well, is there anything else that kind of jumps out? I don't want to be respectful of your time, but I really appreciate you talking.

And I think that people will really enjoy having to hear what you have to say. Yeah, I mean, I guess all I would say is that, if anybody is listening that maybe hasn't tried an art form writing making visual art making music as a means to you know kind of deal with whatever they're going through mental health or whatever you want to call it if you haven't tried it give it a whirl you know start writing your thoughts down.

Start thinking how you can translate those thoughts into an art form, into something, because it is an important part and has been for a long time of my life of getting things out, even if it is just screaming into a microphone. But maybe try that and then try screaming

some feelings into a microphone. You know, I would say if you haven't tried something and you've wanted to for a while, go for it. Do you see places

where your creativity's helped you work through stuff but in i mean do you think about it that way or is that not really the way that you work well yeah i i i do think about it that way um i mean i think it's a cons i think i'm constantly working through things with with creativity there's not like a you know there's not re there's never been like a well you know, there's not really, there's never been like a, well, you know, I've written a bunch of songs about that now and I'm, I'm processed that and I'm done with it. It's always just, it's, it's always helping.

And so that's kind of why I'm always doing it. There's, there's never a time where there's not something I'm working on, some type of art that I'm working on well that's that's helpful have you ever have you heard of brain spotting no so it's a it's an eye movement therapy it's newer than EMDR I think it works a little bit better I'm trained in both of them but it's it's fun I'm kind of wild I mean we use it a lot to lose creativity for creatives, but even in people that are just using it to treat trauma. There's like a creative explosion afterward I've been like every kind of therapy that exists I got not that exists But I've been in five or six different kinds of therapy with different therapists got different things out of each of the styles and really

You know enjoyed it but With brain spotting and we pivoted our whole clinic to this new brain-based medicine and somatic stuff because i just i was expecting nothing it was during covet it was online i didn't think this would work i was going to be looking at a pointer um i thought i'd get something out of it and be able to use it for whatever and then i just dissociated for 20 minutes it was like very psychedelic and what is it you i mean long so long story short you know all the theories about how this stuff works or theories but the subcortical brain where trauma

is stored but also are into it you know that intuitive creative gut reflex comes from it's very somatic and deep in the body come underneath language and cognition it's before you're thinking in language you're feeling mm-hmm so the the body kind of remembers one when I'm around people that make me feel threatened my heart it's a black hole or my stomach is hot or my skin ting you know there's all this stuff that's kind of stuck and until you get it out you're reliving it but your body also kind of remembers the position your eye was looking in during a traumatic event or like there's different associations like where do you look you know under your desk as a kid because you don't think you

can learn math or whatever then that kind of gets wired in with this feeling see the therapist just has a pointer and they're looking for a certain pattern of dilation in the eye and when they find it you just kind of lose time sometimes uh you feel real strong physical um sometimes emotional but usually in the room just physical physical reaction okay and then over the next couple of days because the processing is mainly outside of the room there's just uh really strong emotional feelings that are younger you know i mean for me it was like i just felt very vulnerable and it didn't justify my surrounding like i didn't know why. And I mean, you're going through something that's bad

but it's so involuntary and unconscious that it's wild. It is interesting, even though it's kind of unpleasant. And usually afterwards there's this creative explosion. You know, a lot of people who they were just coming into process, you know, you combat or some domestic abuse or whatever. They're like, I can't quit drawing houses. Like I'm sitting in in meetings i'm drawing a house or i'm writing a point you know like something on so it's interesting and you're only out 40 minutes if if you uh you know some therapy

techniques you're scratching the surface after a year so it's it's quick no i haven't heard of that it's interesting well i really appreciate you you sitting down and my daughter is in preschool But we talked about what we're gonna do the next day every day And so she wanted to record a message for you if I could play her saying hey It's before we hop off. I told her that I would and she She's she's five, but she likes. Hi Andy Savage. I'm in the chaos dimension. I have some Halloween decorations up right now

and my baby brother's doing good. It's so sweet and cool that we occupied the same dimension. What's her name? Violet. Hi Violet. Thank you very much for the message. Yeah, she's like very into Sonic the Hedgehog so there's like Chaos Emer like very into Sonic the Hedgehog so

there's like Chaos Emeralds and Sonic the Hedgehog and when she that song spoke to her it's requested all the time you can tell her that I used to I used to like that video game quite a lot too well thank you so much I really appreciate it again we want to give a huge thanks to a savage for sitting down and talking about his artwork um both the audio and visual artwork is amazing you should check out his website uh their most recent album sympathy for life is available uh for purchase it's excellent violet's favorite is wide awake and my favorite is Light Up Gold and Human Performance, two of the albums that I think everyone should check out.

So thank you so much for listening.