The Taproot Podcast - 🛞Unlocking Your Potential with Archetypes: Interview with Dr. Laurence Hillman

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Discover how to harness the power of archetypes to transform your life and leadership. In this interview, archetypal astrologer Dr. Laurence Hillman shares his innovative Archetypes at Work™ model and how it can help you unleash your full potential in an increasingly complex world. Dr. Hillman's Site: https://laurencehillman.com/ In this podcast interview, Dr. Laurence Hillman, a pioneering archetypal astrologer, discusses his groundbreaking Archetypes at Work™ model. This universal framework, based on 10 core archetypes represented by planetary symbology, provides a language for understanding human motivation and behavior. Dr. Hillman emphasizes the importance of developing both left-brain and right-brain capabilities, particularly in light of increasing complexity and the rise of artificial intelligence (AI). He shares how the Archetypes at Work™ model can be applied for personal growth, leadership development, team dynamics, and organizational transformation. By learning to identify and embody different archetypal energies, individuals can tap into their full potential and thrive in all areas of life. The interview also explores the limitations of reductionistic approaches to psychology and the value of engaging with subjectivity, intuition, and symbolic thinking for deep understanding and change. Dr. Laurence Hillman is an archetypal astrologer, coach, and speaker with over 45 years of experience. He is the co-creator of the Archetypes at Work™ model used for leadership development and organizational transformation. Hillman holds a PhD and travels the world teaching and consulting. He is passionate about helping people embrace their full potential by understanding and utilizing the power of archetypes. Hillman is the son of the late James Hillman, the founder of archetypal psychology.   #ArchetypesAtWork #ArchetypalPsychology #LeadershipDevelopment #PersonalGrowth #OrganizationalTransformation #InnovationThroughArchetypes #ArchetypalCoaching #ArchetypalAstrology #WholeBrainLeadership #CreativityAndIntuition #RightBrainLeadership #MindsetMastery #ArchetypalEmbodiment #ArchetypalConsulting #PurposeDrivenLeadership   Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.com/ Check out the youtube: https://youtube.com/@GetTherapyBirmingham Podcast Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.podbean.com/ Podcast Feed: https://feed.podbean.com/GetTherapyBirmingham/feed.xml Taproot Therapy Collective 2025 Shady Crest Drive | Hoover, Alabama 35216 Phone: [phone] Fax: [phone] Email: [e-mail]

Hey guys, it's Joel, and this is the Taproot Therapy Podcast. We've got a great interview today with Dr. Lawrence Hellman. He's an astrologer and an archetypal researcher who does a lot of work with businesses for coaching and consulting and helping people get to know the different parts of their psyche that lets them be able to create and express themselves fully professionally and personally. So that's interesting. We're going to roll that in just a minute. A couple things coming up with the show. I mean, one, these episodes are probably going to get a lot less regular,

or maybe not. We would really like to have an in-person studio in Birmingham and prioritize in-person episodes soon. The money's not there to do that addition just yet, but hopefully by the end of next year. And then also now that Alice is getting started, hopefully her and then one of our new therapists, James Waits, can be on the show more often as time allows. But this is kind of one of three things pulling me in a couple

directions, and I'm trying to decide how much time I can devote to it. We also have kind of a new technique at Taproot, a new brain-based medicine thing that's exciting and not'm trying to decide how much time I can devote to it. We also have kind of a new technique at Taproot, a new brain-based medicine thing that's exciting and not really ready to be unveiled completely yet, but that is going to take a certain amount of work to develop. If you are a listener to this show and you like it and you want to see more of a certain kind of episode or you want to see more of a certain kind of thing,

now would be the time to reach out because I'm going to be doing my, you know, six months to seven months out planning for guests and, uh, you know, essays that I want to write and do, uh, and may take a little bit of a break. Uh, but if you want to send me an email, um, that's on our website, get therapy, birmingham.com, uh, Joel Blackstock at get therapy, birmingham.com. But you can also see that on my bio page, uh, to give me feedback for the show. That'd be great. Uh, I know that there are some people who listen to it and a couple of you have reached out already who like it. And, um, now would be the

time to do that. Cause that's what I'm going to be working on over the next month. So I'm gonna go ahead and roll that interview. Um, again, this is Dr. Lawrence Selman, and I encourage you to check out the show notes and look at his website and some of his other work because a lot of it's, and he's done so much work, more than I'm probably going to be able to get to. I have a lot of questions, but I'd kind of like to have more of a conversation and just see where things go to. And something about the spontaneity seems to be a little bit more authentic and go a little bit deeper. So I don't want to introduce you too much, but one of my favorite things about your work is that whenever I've come across it, a lot of people who say archetypal or talking about archetypal stuff, because I was familiar with your dad's work with archetypal psychology too,

and a lot of the stuff that's coming out of Pacifica in the past couple of years. But a lot of this stuff gets kind of water of Pacifica in the past couple years um and but a lot of this stuff gets kind of watered down when you when you encounter it to where people are really kind of talking about a cultural layer or their political bias or their you know you can just kind of see that what they're talking about is not really um an archetypal energy or really deep timeless thing and you sort of sift through um the the culture to find the stuff that is really perennial, really deep, you know, a samurai and a knight look very different, but what is the thing that is similar in these energies in a way that's very honest and effective? And I don't see a ton of

that. So I don't know if you agree with that or if that's, I'll leave it there and then hand it over to you. Thank you so much for having me, Joel. And I do, of course, appreciate that's a compliment. Yeah, I think I'm very practical. I'm a hands-on kind of a person and I do coaching and leadership development and this kind of work that needs for me to be really practical things that people can do to better their lives or to you know make more sense of the things that don't make sense to them and archetypes are just a really good tool it's a way of seeing I think of archetypes as wearing a certain set of glasses maybe you remember in the movie National Treasure where Nick Cage is stealing the Declaration of Independence and he needs to find these glasses that Ben Franklin hid forth in a certain way and gets the right combination

then suddenly on the back of the declaration of independence he sees this map to me archetypes are very similar they're always there they're always visible but you can only see them if you if you put on a certain set of lenses they're not literal lenses like that it's a way of seeing and that's something you can learn and once you learn that life becomes pretty interesting so for instance the chocolate mousse isn't just a chocolate mousse but is also then filled with the archetype of the lover or venus or beauty or or seduction or chocolate or all those things that belong in that same archetype like you said it's not just the samurai and the and the knight but the warrior shows up in every person in some way shape or form can be your drive your passion your your sort of instinctual targeting your um your force your your ability

to defend yourself all these kinds of things so we have to look much bigger than limiting an archetype to something that is you know a literalism like it's my anger or it's my inner warrior. That's much too small. Even though we have to, of course, give them names. And so we do call that part that you just mentioned the warrior, but it's not limited to warrior. Warrior is a very wide concept. And so there's always the limitation of language.

So imagination plays a lot. And the idea is that the words trigger something in the imagination. And when you're talking about, there's archetypes at work. Is that one that you use the most? You've got a couple of different systems and publications. Well, I'm an astrologer. I've been an astrologer for 47 years. That's how I see the world. I'm an archetypal astrologer, which means that I see the archetypes that are also represented

in the planets as sort of the formula through which I understand the world. Think of the 10 notes of a key, the 12 notes of a keyboard, five black and seven white, that make up an octave and with those you can play pretty much any song. And so this is the same idea that the planetary archetypes, those 10 that we tend to use as astrologers, are sort of the basis, the 10 digits with which you can grasp any situation, describe any person, anything, any piece of art, anything you want. It's an archetypal way of seeing. Those are the lenses, if you want, or combinations of them. And so that's what I use.

Now, we started to, my partner and I, in 2016, started with them with organizations with this work and so we translated the astrological language into an archetypal language that is more universal and doesn't bump up against some of the pushback against astrology because it has you know a name it's a way of thinking it's not it's it's it's not um you know astrology that's in the back of a magazine that tells you your sun sign it It's definitely not sun sign astrology. What I do, a professional astrologer, doesn't do sun sign astrology. That would be like saying, you know, I'm six foot tall and that defines me. There's so much more that defines me than my height.

So, you know, besides the sun sign, you have a moon sign, you have a Mars sign, a Venus sign, etc. So the archetypes at work model is essentially the same model as the astrological model. It's one way of seeing the world, which is archetypal, but we use slightly different language and we focus it in its expression to business and to leadership development. Well, and I, you know, your stuff, you're working with businesses, you know, I'm a therapist. And one of the things that I've been really loud about for a long time is how much the reliance on pure empiricism, things that we can reduce totally down to, you know, something that is Cartesian and measurable in a number, which I just don't believe the psyche. I don't believe trauma. I don't believe the soul really can be reduced to a number um i love science i i you know do research and different things um but i've kind of moved into the things that are more conventional wisdom and there's something you know of you're saying it's a lens

like it's a mechanism of sorting this energy so that we can understand it and work with it which that seems to me so inevitable in therapy whether it's the mvti whether it's you know kind of you know freudian or depth you know wisdom of we learned that you know you're lovable from the parent of the opposite sex you know but how to be in the world from the parent of the same sex i mean therapy's been doing that forever in ways that are not 100 right or not measurable or not testable but they're still effective in helping us tease apart who we are and understand us. I'm sure you've had some pushback from people. I mean, a ton of the stuff I get if

I say that I like Jung or that I'm using kind of a somatic archetypal thing to connect people to something, I have people say, well, you must believe all this stuff that I don't believe. You know, and it's like, I didn't say that. all i said was that i was using somatic work or something i don't know how do you how do you make sense of that we all we all this is great what you're saying i agree with you so look we all believe a certain way and see the world in a certain way what's my father used to say it doesn't matter what you believe just be aware what tree you're sitting in when you're believing and i think that's a lovely metaphor because, you know, as long as we're aware that when we say, I don't believe in what I can't measure, that we are operating from a left brain perspective,

this idea that it has to be rational and measurable to be real. That's a perspective. That's a certain tree to sit in. It's not wrong, but it's not the only way to see. And it's just as valid as another way to see. It's just that since the enlightenment, that way of seeing has trumped and has made everything the right way to see and everything else is woo-woo or weird or different. But here's what's happening. This is what's interesting, what's happening in the world right now. So we have a absolute dominance of left brain capacity, and that's what everybody needs to do. That's how you get along.

That's how you do business. That's how you win. That's how you, you know, data-driven, evidence-based, more data is better, you know, measure everything. And if you just get enough facts, you can make the right decision. That works in a complicated world. Complicated, my definition of complicated is a car for instance

is complicated. It has a bunch of simple systems like the windshield wiper system has you know a couple of wipers and a button and some and a little you know a little reservoir and some hoses and there you go and a pump. if something breaks in that simple system you can just replace the part and it works again and so all of those together makes a complicated car and leadership in a complicated world works being data driven to some extent that's what's worked pretty well for the last you know several hundred years since the industrialization and so on however today we're no longer in a complicated world, we live in a complex world and the difference is emergence. Things happen overnight that change everybody's

playing field, for instance, COVID or the wars because we're so global and everything is so connected, supply chains, etc., etc., everything interacts with everything else. It is a different playing field and complexity is that capability, what we call complexity capability, to deal with the things that are not linear and that aren't, you know, predictable in that sense that if this happens and that's going to happen or these are the seven possibilities, we're going to pick one and so forth. So complexity capability, and this is the cool thing is a right brain capability that belongs into the realm of those things that aren't measurable imagination creativity dreaming you know sitting still and waiting for something to pop into your mind um uh you know uh listening uh reflecting those kinds of things that's right those are right brain capabilities.

And I know this is not literal, it's not that the left brain does one thing and the right brain does one thing. But this way of thinking is very commonly understood what a left brain and a right brain capability is. So the unmeasurable world is actually suddenly incredibly important. Second thing has happened that about 18 months ago,

AI popped up on the scene and leaders are now suddenly dealing with AI. AI can do left brain a gazillion times faster than any leader in the world. And therefore, a lot of the left brain skills, like being able to take massive amounts of data and analyze it and then come up with a solution out of that can be done way faster by a computer now and so that's another reason why leaders need to activate their right brain in other words if you look at harvard business review and what are people talking about in leadership everyone is now saying we need to activate our right brain gallup gallup just did a thing on this everyone is talking about this we need to activate our right brains because we want to operate with a

full brain so when someone comes to you and says what you believe in all that stuff that i don't talking about this we need to activate our right brains because we want to operate with a full brain so when someone comes to you and says what you believe in all that stuff that i don't believe in basically you can just tell them i believe in a whole brain and it sounds like you only believe in using half of your brain that's all that's the argument it's not um that one's right or one's wrong it's what what how are you preferencing what you're looking at? So yes, certain things that you and I believe in, if you want to call it that, like the importance of dreams or imagination or fantasy or those, these kinds of things, um, where creativity takes place, by the way, all of this, um, is not measurable and it is just as real.

Um, I'll give you something in business that is not measurable. That is incredibly real. It's called trust, right? Trust any business leader with would say oh my god i really have to press it people don't trust me i'm not going to have a business i'm not going to have employees and stay and so on so trust isn't measurable but it's very real it's very tangible in that sense that it's real so that's a right brain capability so these kinds of things so all we're advocating for is to develop people's right brain capabilities. I'm also very much in favor of left brain.

I love left brain. I love that we have science and that we have, I have an engineering degree that we can have, you know, clean water and do good surgery. That's all wonderful, of course, but it's not enough. It's only half of reality. And in this complex world, we have to use our whole brain and we need to learn a language to do right brain development and guess what that's exactly what archetypes at work does it is a language that develops people's right brains and gives them access to their creativity through the imagination by understanding

these inner patterns that are that are what would guide us through life it's interesting the quote about trees that you mentioned. I think, and you obviously know your father better than I do. So please correct me if this is, the intuition is wrong here, but I came to Jung by all of these tapes. It was this digitized thing of tapes that were once analog from the 70s and 80s and 90s

of all these talks different people gave. And some of them were James Hill james hillman your dads and um the the quote i feel like sometimes he was thinking about trees without even mentioning it because he knew a lot of languages and he knew a lot of methods of philosophy and epistemology that he kind of saw as branching off and the like uh he there's one time where it came up where he was kind of reassuring somebody who was telling he was reassuring someone who was telling him that his presentation was bullshit basically it was like kind of a cognitive therapist in the night in the 90s recording who was like i don't

know i'm getting a therapy cd for this and i don't understand what this has to do with patients or something and he was saying like you know all of epistemology and philosophy it branches off and it branches off and you know a ton of the reason why we experience these things is just to say, well, I like Spinoza. I don't understand Plato. And this is the way that I think and to find our way of thinking. So I'm so glad that you found your way of thinking or something. And I don't know. Yeah, that's the same thing.

That's a beautiful example and a great story. Exactly. It's not we have to stop thinking that our way of thinking is the right way that's where it gets tricky or that the other person's way of thinking is the wrong way that's that's where it gets tricky they're just in a different tree it is important to recognize consequences of our thinking though and so if my if my way of thinking thinks that everything that is right brain is wrong then then I am consciously and actively excluding it. I could also say I'm not comfortable with it, or I don't know much about it, or I'd

like to know more about it. That to me is more interesting. And somebody who is all in their right brain and knows absolutely nothing left brain, that's rare, but you do find those people, they're pretty weird too. They're probably sitting on goa smoking pot, you know, on the beach. Yeah. So in India. So maybe that's, you know on the beach yeah so in india so maybe that's you know that's that's also to me not that's not fully functioning either but a fully developed brain you know operating with all of it with with both sides is really what is necessary and that that means getting into those mysterious and dark and moist places that you know a lot of

people don't want to go to that are not rational, not measurable, not so easily explainable, but just as real and just as true. Yeah. And I think you do see the people who hide in the metaphorical mystical side of the brain, you know, probably around Jungian things. I mean, that's one of the big criticisms of a lot of the applied Jungianism was that, you know, they feel like they ignore the material reality that, you know, in the 70s, they said, we're going to change, you know, ecofeminism in the world and manifest these things. And they did a drum circle and the Reagan revolution still happened. You know, that's something that a lot of kind of left people criticize the Jung jungians for and i would kind of agree i mean

i'm in that edward edinger camp of we've got two parts of our brain they don't really want to be in the same head and we're going to hide in the one that we're back we're going to hide in the one that we're good at because we don't want to deal with the one that we're bad at is that related to what you're saying yeah but yeah but um that has a that has a cost people don't like costs there's a huge cost if you if you avoid your right brain and and and and you know or think that's what i do in my private life and at work i just do my my life that's incredibly split and really doesn't make for a full human being and you're not showing up fully anywhere and that i've seen you know in my practice i've seen that kind of behavior many many many many many times and that's not fulfilling for people. And then there's always something missing. Either

they feel like they're, you know, they're a robot at work, and it's just mechanic, and I'm just here to make a paycheck and get in and get out, and then I go home and have my feelings. Or they are so completely wishy-washy in their feelings when they're at home that they have absolutely no structure on them at all, and are completely subject to someone else's whims or stuff like that codependency you name it those kinds of things but there's no way of rationally engaging with their behavior at home so if that's the case that's not a life i would like to live i don't want to leave half of myself at the door when i go to work so i think you know showing up fully and the number one thing we get when we use this archetypes at work model with large corporations and people working in them is that people say, I've never

been seen this way. I've never been talked to in this full way. I've never been sort of recognized for my fullness. I've always been seen for my skills or for my, you know, technical abilities or for my job description, but never as a human being. And in today's world where I think the last Gallup poll, 60 or 70, some incredible number of people would like to change their jobs within the next six months. This was last October, if I remember correctly, don't quote me on this, but it was in those ranges, is extremely, imagine for a hiring manager

or for any kind of a leader, the costs of that kind of a turnover, it's unbelievable. So, and that was when the market was really good for jobs and so on. Now it's gone down a little bit again, so a little bit harder to get jobs. The point is that people aren't happy at work because they're not being fully seen and they're just doing a job. And so people want to change in the hopes they're going to be more seen. And we're rethinking what work is about completely, mostly because of AI.

Well, I think that's one of the real beauties and benefits of adept psychology and any kind of parts-based psychology is that you're able to really reach in and somebody wants to come into the room and talk to you as the logisticon or their logical faculty, or they want to talk as the CEO or the warrior oristicon, you know, their logical faculty, or they want to talk

as, you know, the CEO or the warrior or whatever. And you say, no, no, no, I want to talk to this part of you. And you start to talk to this part that they're not used to, that they're not used to conversing. And all of a sudden you've exposed and made room for something that you're helping them understand. You know, not every kind of therapy can do that. And the risk, I think, of some of the post-Jungian things where they systematize too much. Like I, I, I don't hate IFS. I mean, I think it's better than the CBT or something, but you're, you're not respecting these things as just energy. And so you're starting to have to judge them. Like, I hate the term protective part, you know, it's like, no, it's Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy to hear this from a therapist i

get the same i have the same thing i think internal family systems has the ideas great that we have multiple inner voices and they speak to each other that's great but the actual labels that they use are very very um difficult for me as well because i can't think of a bigger waste of time than trying to get somebody to tease apart the energy that they're feeling right now that we could talk about but is it a firefighter or is it a protect like stop what that's the wrong part of the head don't put them there like you know they're thinking about it now you know that's quite brilliant joel i've never i've never heard somebody um explain it to me um that well i always knew there was something weird with it with the labeling that i didn't like but but let's also

give it credit because it is a system of inter multiplicity it is a system of talking to parts of yourself it is a system that that that understands complexity and this whole thing about having more than one voice inside you know developmental psychology typically says you're this you know first you crawl then you walk then you run that's pretty much the model of of most developmental psychologies and um and then behaviorism you know just comes in there and and that's all about you know how are you behaving in a particular in a particular one of these phases but all of these models have one thing in common they think of a human being as being singular inside i am this and and you know identity the

whole thing of identity then you can get into identity politics and all these things but these whole things that i am that that's what gives me strength my ego is is from a multi from an archetypal perspective a bunch of baloney because there is no such thing as an eye there are eyes there are multiple parts in us and by the way the way you can easily show this to someone who's a big believer in that interior eye that singular eye have you ever had a conversation with yourself well of course i did this morning i was wondering if i should have toast or or cereal you know or i was and this should have this or that but of course that's kind of a joke but if you're like should i stay with this person should i leave this

person should i keep this job or what about that i could take this job but i have all these options those conversations weighing the pros and the cons you can't do if you're a single identity you can only do that when you step away from yourself whatever that self is so to me you're stepping from one inner character to another inner character and they're having a conversation and if you can identify who these characters are that's very useful because then you know how they make decisions. Is it the dreamer and the storyteller? Well, one's gonna tell the other one a great story

and the other one's gonna go into dreams and maybe not be so practical. These are useful things to have as you recognize how we actually feel ourselves. We are peopled inside. We are not singular inside. That's it, there's this lovely quote. I have it in the beginning of one of my books this wonderful quote by Charles Sinek he was

the poet laureate in the United States a couple of years ago he wrote we do not live most of the time in exalted states the content of our stream of consciousness is usually not so lofty our psychic life is more like a squabbling squabbling theatrical company trying to rehearse a play we don't know the name of you know that's really how it feels there's this inner mess most of us can immediately relate to that now when i wrote my dissertation i found you know you always have to find the counterpoint the counter voice and i found a bunch of psychiatrists who are very, very afraid of this rule. Don't talk about multiplicity. That means split personality, DID, you know, dissociative identity disorder. That's a completely different

thing. That is an illness and has nothing to do with the way of speaking that we speak now. And to equate one with the other is incredibly naive and incredibly simplistic. Multiplicity, inner multiplicity is how human beings have thought about themselves for eons. If it was inner gods or multiple gods or, you know, outside and then reflected inside, if it was these, I mean, the gift of death psychology has been to bring us this inner multiplicity.

That's really been the greatest gift. And then Jung gave them names and called them archetypes by looking at them globally. But this is the big thing. And now I just met a psychiatrist the other day who wrote an article and I connected with her because I've been writing about inner multiplicity in leadership. And she wrote one about, you know, from a psychiatrist's perspective, that maybe inner multiplicity doesn't mean dissociative identity disorder could really mean, you know, from a psychiatrist's perspective, that maybe intermultiplicity doesn't mean dissociative identity disorder. It could really mean, you know, a richer way of thinking. So I'm very interested in this sort of movement that's starting now.

And, well, it's been going on for a while, but now it's getting some traction that intermultiplicity is good. There is a language for it. In our case, we use archetypes based on the planets. To me, that's a very solid foundation 5 000 years of data if you want to use left brain just to quantify that of how what the planets mean you know for a person and so and so you know and when you say that you mean that there's you know perennial patterns that we can go back and look at these things popping up i mean because i mean that's my argument when people say well it's not back and look at these things popping up. I mean, because, I mean, that's my argument when people say,

well, it's not empirical to look at mythology. It's not empirical for you to look at these gurus and mystics that you're writing about on your blog. You know, why are you writing about Martin Buber? Why are you writing about Meister Eckhart? And I'm saying, like, because when somebody invents Buddhism in the middle of medieval Germany, that means that there is some part of the brain that produces this

because Meister Eckhart didn't go study in Japan, or he didn't go study, you know, in Thailand. And so that means that this is a description, you know, people are universally arriving at these places because of archetypal or some kind of inborn thing. And I don't care where you think it comes from. You can have a woo-woo spiritual metaphysics, you can have a scientific genetically deterministic, biological deterministic metaphysics. I'm just pointing out the pattern, you know? And if you can't see the pattern or that, that seems more empirical to me than people want it to be.

But isn't that a strange question to ask you? Why would you study Eckhart or why would you, in other words, to me, you know would you study at Carter why would you in other words to me you know you're a psychologist you know as a psychologist thinking person you would ask yourself what is that person so afraid of why are thoughts dangerous yeah thoughts are dangerous because they they might they might actually open up a part of myself that I'm terrified of you know it's like I'm never gonna fall in love and going to fall in love. I'm never going to fall in love.

Oh, damn, I just fell in love. Now what? It's like these things, people are so worried that because you can't measure it, it's not real. It's just, I mean, someone says that to me, why do you study that? It's not even empirical. I burst out laughing. This is the conversations going on in research between quantitative and qualitative research. Someone who's a quantitative researcher who only believes

in analyzing data, massive amounts of data, and finding truth in there is going to say that every kind of qualitative research, which is what the human sciences use, is invalid. And so, you know, it's two minds that don't meet, but they're talking about two different sides of the brain and two different sides of perceiving reality. And meanwhile, there is tons and tons and tons and tons of very valid research done on quality, with quality, with a qualitative, from a qualitative perspective.

So I'm just, I just don't, I don't get engaged in a in a confrontative argument i think it's a waste of time it's like stay in your tree that's fine just be aware that you're in a tree i don't have a problem with that but the qual even if you want to stay in the realm of the quantitative they don't give um you know jung and and and hellman like the credit that they deserve now that we have qEGs that say it's not about the part of the brain, it's about networks that you're activating of deep somatic emotion that is coming from the brainstem in a theta wave. And this is how you experience being assertively,

assertive is the warrior. This is how you experience being passively controlling. These are your emotions obsessed. One of them is good. One of them is bad. One of them tightens my entire back because I have trauma around that. It's these networks of deep semantic and emotional memory, you know, and the same people, the same people who said that Jung was kind of fleet BS and published those papers in the nineties are publishing now and saying, oh, well there's primary, secondary, and tertiary memory. There's, there's, there's first order, second order, and third order thought processes. The third order can only really be engaged through the body and through symbolic content.

It's like that's what they're publishing now. Right. But they weren't wrong. Yeah. Here's the thing. People are, you know, when you think about, you know, that makes Jung's work even more interesting because in a way he was doing all of this before we knew everything that we know today so that's

we have to keep that in mind think about when you know people who attack jung for not being feminist enough or so forth everybody's influenced by their times of course they are and and i agree a lot of what jung says is you know is's like scratching a blackboard in the wrong way with your fingernails. I'm not sure if you can still hear me, but you've frozen for a second. So I'm waiting for the connection to catch up. Are we good? I can hear you now. Cut out for just a second.

The last thing I heard was scratching of the fingernails. Sorry. Oh, yes. it cut out for just a second. Last thing I heard was scratching of the fingernails. Sorry. Oh yes, I said, you know, some of what Jung said is like scratching fingernails across the blackboard. I get it, but that's in today's context because we now have feminism, we have, you know, enlightenment in lots of areas that we didn't have before, in right brain capabilities and understanding of, you know, that anima is limited to the man and animals to the woman these kinds of things is is pretty is pretty limited so so um but it doesn't mean you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater it doesn't mean that what jung said wasn't absolutely brilliant and and and mind-blowing and and trailblazing that's the key the other thing is that most people who criticize for instance astrology i've heard so much criticism about astrology have absolutely no idea what they're

criticizing yeah and so for me it's like you know Newton had a famous because Newton studied astrology and Newton had a famous line somewhere you know when some other scientists said to him oh you know the second astrology is nothing and he said sir I have studied it and you have not that's all he said and so it's like to me I have no problems and you have not. That's all he said. And so it's like, to me, I have no problems with somebody who really knows astrology to say, oh, it's a bunch of baloney, but to outright say, there can't be a connection between the planets and us.

You know, it surprises me how afraid people are about those things that they can't measure. And it's as though if you say you believe in astrology that immediately makes you a weak you know a gullible because most people associate astrology with crap which is what's in the back of a magazine which is nothing to do with real astrology so you know pop psychology is also very crappy you know I'm an introvert I'm an extrovert really doesn't mean very much and these sort of simple labels I mean I'm an Aries I'm a

you know I'm a Libra doesn't really mean anything it's that it's a much more it's a complexity and to really be able to say I think it's a bunch of baloney that's fine but please study it enough to make an intelligent decision and to have some intelligent arguments about why it's baloney rather than just because it can't be that's a really bad argument to me just can't be that there's a connection that means you've not studied it how that connection actually works so what that actually is or how we can look at the planets to get some answers that's just you know quite intelligent people have been um you know giving a lifetime to studying astrology and they've come up with some very interesting

insights and that's worth studying so if somebody's interested in that you know study it and then make a decision if you think it's worthwhile or not but don't dismiss an idea how can anything that cracks us open and shows us uh the way you know different parts of our ourself and gives us a different vantage point on the way we think and make decisions be a bad thing, no matter where it comes from or what you think about the scientific materialism. I mean, I, um, a lot of astrologers have to have, um, if they're licensed a certain way, they, they have, uh, um, a therapist that they refer to, um, because, you know, astrology can't treat certain things. And so just as part of networking, when I opened this,

I saw Mandy Ray in Birmingham, a couple of people, and I was starting an integrative holistic medicine clinic that was brain-based and depth psychology. And I'm a social worker. It was expensive and it was a real stressful time. And it was incredibly helpful. I don't know a ton about astrology, but the perspective when they were explaining, you know, how I could think about things and things that I should look for and things that I should respond to.

It made me engage with my life in a way that was very helpful. You know, tarot is similar. Some people use tarot, you know, to confront a problem that you're eating. I mean, this stuff is so old. Why is it so threatening to people to give up that control and look at themselves from a different perspective than that thing? Because they're afraid of being called a feeble mind or gullible or these kinds of things.

Meanwhile, people are extremely gullible by data as well. So it's just, anyway, I think it's great to just make the point let people decide for themselves you know I'm here to tell you that astrology is not some kind of a strange woo-woo thing that you can't learn it's quite rational it can be learned and yes to some extent it's also there's a difference between being a great astrology and being a good astrologer and that is the same difference as being someone who plays the piano well and plays music you know that's that's there's this there's an art part to it that is right brainy and that that you can't learn learn but that is kind of a talent and a gift just like with anything else that you go

that same in medicine there's something about being the best student in med school and being a fabulous doctor that's not necessarily the same thing there's another part to healing that is not necessarily measurable you know maybe bedside manners how do you measure that those kinds of things so so yeah it's just it's just that I would like to take some of the some of the stigma out of astrology because it has such a a a it used to have it's changed a lot it is a I read a few years ago the astrology was the second most googled word on google after sex and so i was quite quite impressed by that that people are

really curious especially young people really want to know and you know they want to know and often it stays with their sun sign but at least it's a way to think about themselves fine it's a limited way but it is it's better than nothing it's starting to think that they have a connection to the universe, to their birth minute. And something happened at that moment that continues to unfold in them. And I think that's an interesting way to live rather than just hearing a random speck of dirt in the universe. So, yeah, meaning making is something very important for human beings. And we find our own ways to make meaning. Some people make meaning through a lot of data.

That's fine. Just be aware that that's your mindset. Yeah, I was in Spain with my family this summer and we went to the Dolmen Dominga, this Neolithic portal tomb and you're looking at this thing that uh is just unbelievably old that somebody moved 100 180 ton rocks to make this long tunnel so that exactly at the winter equinox the light would shine all the way down to the very tip of this tomb and touch the bones you know that were in the end and uh you know just it's one of the first things that we did you know you could you could look at somebody who, you know, there's a mountain, there's a storm. I can build a house, but it'll burn down. I can tell a story, but it'll change.

And then you see that birth of architecture where you build this thing. The psyche is completely different because using math, using intuition, using logic, I'm now talking to God. You know, this 180 ton monument is going to here forever you know from my mind and it's connecting me to this timeless order of cosmology I was able to predict the Sun you know how that moment of change you know that's like one of the moments we came alive in it and it had to do with the cosmos with with the astro very beautiful and you know Joel I think every religion started out well religion in general started out as sun worshipping because, you know, the sun was the giver of life. It's pretty natural to then make sun, you know, raw or in the Inca tradition.

You know, these were, you know, if you were sitting in your cave shivering and the sun didn't come up the next morning, you know, you'd be dead. No food, no no light no nothing so this idea that you would worship and ask the Sun to come back every day makes a lot of sense so religion started out as Sun and then Sun gods and and so on and the honoring of the Sun and the moon and many traditions are based on the moon and they're regular they're predictable we know where they are at any given time and so we set our calendars according to them too, in a very, in a very, you know, sketchy world that is always reliable. We know where the sun's going to be at any given time. We know where the moon's going to be at any given time. So we can organize our chaotic lives according to them, which is why every calendar is made that way.

Could you let people have some examples of how the archetypes at work could help them directly with leadership if they're doing executive coaching, if they're doing mentoring, if they are a business leader, therapist? Yeah, I'll give you a corporate example and I'll give you a personal example. First, a corporate example, an R and D department research and development department had about 30 people in it. And the, um, leadership looked at the numbers and they found that they'd been giving this department millions of dollars over the last five years. And nothing really came out of this department that was useful or, and so, you know, the first thought, what should we keep them?

Should we fire them? What should we do? Do we have the wrong people? Why, you know, this isn't working what should we keep them? Should we fire them? What should we do? Do we have the wrong people? Why, you know, this isn't working. They should be inventing stuff and so forth. So, or improving stuff or whatever. So they called us in, we did an assessment on everybody. We have an archetypal assessment and found out that nobody in the team, not a single

one of them, including the person who led the team, was comfortable with their inner renegade, was in their, we ranked them by how comfortable am I, am I really comfortable with this one, is it kind of center stage in my life, I can easily step into it and show it to the world, or is it kind of off stage taking a nap in the green room. So none of them had the renegade in the top three. So we gave them this report to leadership and they're like, well, I guess, you know, in the old days, what they would have done is let's fire these people.

We have the wrong people. They're not renegade enough. They're not, the renegade is that part of us in all of us that is the inventor, the creative outside of the box thinker, doesn't mind the rules, goes out and does different things. And so we said, actually actually you don't have to fire these people because we know that everyone within them has an inner renegade it's just that for some

reason they're not activating they're not showing it they're not maybe they don't dare maybe they're afraid if they you know stick out too much they'll get fired maybe they were told as a kid don't ever you know break the rules doesn't why, we don't care why. We just know that right now, nobody's showing up with a renegade center stage or sort of comfortable. So instead we go in and we do a renegade activation workshop with that team. We did that over about two days.

They loved it, it was a lot of fun. And within about six months, that team invented something rather well-known. So they broke out of their own limitations. And of course, leadership was delighted because it costs them way less to activate an archetype than it does to fire everyone and hire new people and then start all over again with a new team. So that's a practical example of how activating an archetype in a team, because you can do a team assessment as well and find out what is this team not so strong on and what is this dream really strong on and that they might overplay and so on so um a personal example is someone who

um you know is a woman who wanted to activate her warrior more because it was at the bottom of her comfort list you know she wasn't comfortable with it for a lot of historical reasons which in coaching you get into deeper things you know what why someone might not like that in a business setting you usually don't but in this coaching with this woman you know there were a lot of reasons in her childhood and in her past that you know coming from a war-torn country and so on where the warrior was not seen as anything she really wanted to access very well understood but she also where the warrior was not seen as anything. She really wanted to access Very well understood, but she also saw the cost of not accessing that part of herself And so we did a whole bunch of work and that means you know Giving her homework every week and doing certain things and writing things and reflecting on this that and the other and it completely changed her

her her marriage for one thing she was just about ready to leave her husband when that started. And then, you know, now it's all, you know, going really, really great. And they're communicating. It's a whole new thing. That would never have happened had she not found that inner power to speak up for what she needed and so forth. So it's a lovely thing.

And she had externalized a lot of it. Her husband is very warrior sort of type and classic sort of that sort of, you know, goes out and gets what he needs and does and is good at business and these kinds of things. So she's learning that she doesn't have to give that away. She can actually own it and have an honest and serious and good conversation with her husband in one place, but also her other life with her kids and with her and with her work and everything else also changed dramatically over the last about six months of coaching so um you know this is a practical example of how activating an archetype can help you helped her in her career

she has a business it got much better there people weren't walking all over her because she now had you know her own power back and things like that so there are no good or bad archetypes it's just how comfortable are you with them and are you able to express them in a productive way or not so so that's the thing so the way people can get to know more about archetypes at work is to go to archetypes at work.com and then they can connect with me directly and tell me what their needs are is it personal coaching is it a corporate thing is it a leadership team is it a board that's not functioning ideally um is it um you know an intact team is it just a bunch of people who are not an intact team but they're all in the same organization there's so many ways to approach this

all archetypes at work work starts with a problem. What's your problem? Like in this case, you know, the R&D department isn't inventing anything. That's a problem. We know we have high turnover. That's a problem. Nobody wants to work here.

That's a problem. We can't find more people. That's a problem. In other words, we're not attractive. Our lover isn't really at the forefront. People aren't wanting to work with us. These kinds of things. So we then translate the problem into an archetypal pattern and think about ways to

solve it and what would that mean with different options. And there's a team of people who are trained. We have a guild of practitioners. These are people who are trained by us who can go out and do the work and are licensed to do it and know it very well. They've done a lot of training to get, you know, capable to do the work well and so they can find someone on that page as well and who can help them. I think we're speaking 11 languages amongst us now, the guild members, and so it's quite global and it's quite... I've translated the work into about 16 languages at this point, including that just got Swahili, which is kind of cool because it's the most spoken language in Africa. So this is a language that is easily understood because archetypes are universal. It doesn't

matter if we're working with yam farmers in Africa, which we have, or with, you know, engineers in India or with, you know, a small team of professionals in the United States, it makes absolutely no difference. Archetypes are universal. Everyone understands them. Everyone has them and we can activate them. Think of archetypes as the human genome of the soul. It's that which connects us all. It's what we all have in common. Doesn't matter what we look like, where we are, how we speak. It's a soul thing that appears in images that we all recognize. Like you just said, we can make the connection between a knight

and a samurai and a, you know, GI. We can make that connection because we have that archetypal eye in us. And you see, you know, what would be called maybe trauma or, you know, life events blocking those things. Like it sounds like in one of your examples, you were saying that the warrior was being blocked by that fear of being the abuser, fear of being the aggressor. If I admit that I'm angry or activate angry or become assertive then I'm gonna be the person who hurt me do you see patterns like that and then work when absolutely so so every archetype it's a great question every archetype appears on a scale in the middle is what we call the optimal zone that's where you get the gifts of

the archetype so for the warrior that will be assertive, clear, able to defend yourself, you know, able to stand up for yourself and fall, you know, hitting a target, being, you know, having a goal, those kinds of things. That's all the warrior in the optimal zone, being fired up about something, those kinds of things. You can overplay an archetype in what we call shadow of too much.

And then the warrior quickly becomes a bully and a screamer and a yeller or violent or these kinds of things and you can also underplay the warrior and then people walk all over you and you can't defend yourself and and you know in a meeting you appear weak these kinds of things so so the key is to recognize where you are on that scale of too much and too little and there's almost always you know we have if we're even if we're very comfortable and we're operating in the optimal zone of an archetype it is still very common that on a bad day we'll overplay it and we'll, you know, we'll flip and we'll become too much of it. Or if we don't have access to it, that we pay a price for it, that there's a cost

to us for not having access to one. So it's a learning process to find access to all the archetypes. A full life to me and good leadership requires access, conscious access to all 10 archetypes. Just being able to, in a certain situation, know what is there. Someone comes into HR, you've got an HR problem, you need to be in your nurturer who cares and listens and makes the other person feel important. You going out for new business, probably a good thing to be in your storyteller and warrior, you know, in that combo of some kind. Because now you can tell tell your story but you're clear and you're ahead and you're you're not afraid of competition and these kind of things you're trying to organize your business or your

warehouse is a mess probably good to get some strategists and warrior together because strategist knows how to organize things and put them on shelves i've never met anybody who has all their 10 you know sort of perfectly um organized uh and so 10, you know, sort of perfectly organized. And so, or, you know, in the optimal zone, we're all always have something to learn. There's always something that's at the bottom of our comfort zone and something that's at the top of our comfort zone. And it's an alive thing. Our personality changes over life, but the ingredients of the personality doesn't. But how we put it together and how we're comfortable with it, that's what we have agency over. Yeah, when I was doing, before I encountered your work

a couple years back, I would do this somatic and experiential kind of archetypal experience where I wanted people to feel the warrior in their posture, you know, before they went into a certain situation, how it showed up for them. One, you know, is there any kind of physicality like that to it? And then two, another part when I did that type of therapy, I would help people kind of sort them, if somebody didn't think terribly metaphorically or symbolically, you know, I would sort it in terms of motivation and be like, you know, the warrior is motivated by uncertainty. How far can it run the ball? You know, how many people can it defeat? Can it get the gold medal? The magician is, is going to be motivated by, by having certainty. It wants the certainty of, I'm going to sit back and figure out how every single person in this room thinks.

And then I'm going to tell a joke that makes all of them laugh. Not just these people, you know, I'm going to sit back and figure out how the girl at the bar or how the boss thinks, and I'm going to stand up and I'm going to impress them in a way that just looks like magic to other people, because I want to be sure that I can do it. Do you have that kind of thing? Yeah, I love how you think. I love how you think, Joel. Well, here's the thing. Yes, Archetypes at Work is co-created between myself and Richard Olivier, who is, of course, the son of Laurence Olivier, comes from a theater background, is a theater director, and he has invented a thing called mythodrama, with which he has done

leadership development for well over 20 years around the world with his models basically using Shakespeare as a leadership story very very much embodied he's had people you know jump around in the room there are very high executives for a long time all around the world and so and jump around the room is you know it's tongue-in-cheek but yes and so Archetypes at Work is also mythodramatic in In other words, it is very, very embodied. And not only do we have gestures for all the archetypes, which you can see at archetypesatwork.com forward slash gestures, which there embodies them and shows you, you know what, this is a meeting, I really have to get my point across. I know people are gonna be aggressively attacking my ideas. I have to be my warrior. And so what they do is they, you know, they go into the bathroom, they do the warrior gesture a couple of times

and they go into that meeting and they're pumped up. You know, it's a great thing to do. And I know of someone who just won a contest, you know, as a musician who swears that if she hadn't stepped into a sovereign before she stepped out on stage and won, she wouldn't have done so forth. So, yes, it's a very embodied language. We also use sound, music, poetry, all kinds of other right brain accesses to activate these archetypal models in ourselves. You can play the archetypes game with anything. It's a set of glasses.

You can say, what would a warrior carpet look like? What would a sovereign carpet look like? What would a lover carpet look like? And so on. Or a piece of, you know, or some food. All of it is translatable. It's a way of seeing. I already gave you a, you know, a lover food, the chocolate mousse. Maybe a warrior food is, I don't know a steak or or very spicy food or very hot food or very fiery food or something like that so you can play with these when you start to develop the language everything becomes very much alive like i said that's developing the archetypal eye yeah that's that's really interesting um i i think the forces are there you know whether or not

we recognize them. A lot of times it's never an actual clinical psychologist. It's always somebody who's just taken their first psych research one-on-one class that sends me an email and says I shouldn't have a license because they Google something and get on the podcast. But I think like, you know, that moment that the precuneus forms in the brain, you know, all this information is there being processed, you know, but we're not perceiving it yet. And then when the precunious is the little seed of that is formed a million years later, you have the Venus of Willendorf because, you know,

perceiving ourselves becomes hard. You know, when we're unconsciously just processing the information, there's such a difference in those things. You know, it's, it's a birth of something. And the people that send me that email, I write back and I say, like, you know, you don't have to notice any of this stuff. You can go your whole life and not notice it. But, you know, somehow if somebody on LinkedIn or something, you know, when you see all this subjectivity and intuition, it's such a waste to not engage with it because you see this subjectivity and intuition and transcendental function and symbolic thinking get projected onto these other things. Like the person that says anything but CBT isn't evidence-based and you have to do therapy like a formula and there's a manualizable form of it. We could let an AI do it. When you look at that person's Facebook page, you see conspiracy theories and wild religiosity after they tell you how to practice therapy. Exactly. I would like to know how, what this person is so afraid of. I would be quite compassionate and say, what are you so afraid of? Why is it such a threat to your thinking that

somebody thinks differently? Or why is it such a threat to your thinking? Not trying to convince them that the way you and I think is better, but just why is it such a threat that things that aren't measurable are real to some people why is that so difficult it's the same thing with religion for some people religion is incredibly incredibly real so why should we tell them that they're nuts or that that's wrong or that it's you know it's a belief system it's a way of thinking it's a way of seeing the world it's it's just just because it's not measurable doesn't make it real to someone who's religious religion is very very real and so um you know and and everything is infused by it in the way they see everything

it's a way of seeing it's perfectly okay with me and there's lots of different ways but to claim that it's the only way of seeing or that every other way of seeing including other religions is wrong that's where the problem is because that's not recognizing that you're in a tree but that becomes absolutism. Anybody who has the truth, be the truth, be CBT, or be the truth, be a religion, sorry, but nobody holds the key to truth. There's no such thing.

And it doesn't mean everything is relative. It means that there are objective ways to distinguish what different people believe has its own place, that's all. Different trees are different mindsets. I mean, it goes all the way back to Aristotle and Plato, you know, to those conversations that, you know, between left brain and right brain, it goes right there. And having to pick a side, I think, is a mistake. What if we could have both in our brain? Wouldn't that be way cooler? And that's totally possible because we're all wired that way.

Yeah, the two schools of thought, you know, the academy and, you know, that. And I think when you look at the relationship that we have, like one of the things that's scary about what you're doing or what Jung's doing or any kind of depth work is you're telling people that philosophy and anthropology and psychology have to be the same discipline in a way where people who are afraid of a part of themselves are going to say, no, you can't bring that into it. But in the same way that you can get a philosopher who's overly logical to tell on themselves, you can do that with psychology. You can look at a model of therapy and say,

what are you afraid of based on how they define the self? And in something like you do, it's very open-ended. You're not pretending to know the person is engaging with the self that is, you're not in control of, you know, something like CBT is limiting the self down to cognition and behavior, which to me is something that, and they would say that, well, if you follow it, it goes down to belief, but look at those beliefs. They're not terribly deep. You know, that's a step in the wrong direction. Literally not deep. Right. But something like ABA that says you're only other people's ability to perceive your behavior, that is terrifying.

I mean, applied behavior analysis is so scary because it's saying there is no self. You are only what other people see. That's worse than cognitive therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And the problem is that right now, i think things are going to shift and the fastest growing school of psychology that you can't even get into right now i've been told is is internal family systems a multiple model that's very hot right now so these things come and go right now the behaviorists and

cbt has pretty much dominated the insurance industry and what people get paid for and and what is real and what is acceptable and what is therapy that's fine there's always going to be those of us who aren't in that model and that number is growing there's now other things like eco psychology and and and embodied psychology and all these kinds of things and of of course, archetypal psychology has become huge. There's a whole new way of thinking that, as the world changes and the values change in the world and that left brain thinking just isn't enough anymore,

the need for something more is going to come really quickly. And so I have a classic psych 101 book that's an inch and a half thick. It has a quarter page of jung and freud's or as a side note as sort of a mistake yeah these guys existed too they believed in this deep stuff and things like dreams i mean can you believe it you know kind of like that i mean that i find that sad i find that sad and my nephew has a classic psych degree from somewhere and he doesn't practice it in any way but i remember

when he was in school what he was telling me what he was doing it was just like i just thought it was that it's so left-brain and it's so it's all biology based and it's just it's fun to do that it's science but don't call it psychology it's biology and it's weeding out everybody who isn't um beneficial to the market by applying that kind of reductivism to psychology yeah exactly and you know psychology has the word psyche in it which means soul there's not a lot of soul in most cbt in fact there's none so you know i it's not for me it worked for some people it's great you know for certain things you know if i have ocd probably probably um uh you know uh cbt is pretty useful. However, I've had some pretty good results working with OCD people as well by understanding the archetypal pattern and finding a different way to do it.

Wow, what a revolutionary thought that actually works. So to me, in the end, the only thing that matters is how things work. To me, I like to see usefulness.ness again we're back where we started if it's not practical if it's not useful if it's just based on the theory i don't care about it but i've had more people tell me that you know one hour of getting an astrological reading has changed their life you know and they've been in therapy for 30 years and they never got to the same depth i've had people tell me that many many many many times probably literally hundreds of times so then i think there's some value to what i'm doing i'm not saying the therapy is wrong i'm not a therapist but what i do is do sort of the x-ray and then work with a therapist

i think i have 19 psychiatrists in my clients i checked that the other day for something else so people who are therapists and i can't think about how many therapists I have as clients so people who understand the value of of getting insights and then working with them and so I think what an astrologer can do is give the insights to the therapist like you said and then therapist does the therapy work there's nothing wrong with that but those insights can you know shave six months off of therapy and can say and can you don't need to know the past you don't need to know the history of the person when you have an astrology chart you can see all of it right there and it's a very powerful tool it's just a tool but it's a useful tool to me if you're a medical doctor someone walks in with a broken arm you're a country doctor

and you say yeah i think i can set it pretty well and then we'll put a cast on it it'll grow back straight yeah that's probably pretty good but imagine how much better you would do with an x-ray so we provide the x-rays astrologers the therapist still then has a much better way of setting the arm and you know and setting it straight so yeah i think that's that's the that's the gift it's understanding people's place and it's not disrespecting people who think differently I think that's the main message from today you know just because someone does something you don't understand or think is weird or think is difficult or think is or think is you

know doesn't match your model of reality doesn't make it wrong and you know tolerance is a nice thing is just to say i'm curious tell me more about it then i'll make a decision once i've actually studied it you i've studied it you've not kind of a thing like newton said that's powerful well that's that's beautiful i don't want to be respectful of your time we'll definitely link to your website and where people can reach out and get more information on either being trained or receiving help. You know, if they are a leader, if they do have one of these companies, are there any books or other services you want to point people to? All of that is on the websites. And so I just, I want, you know, I don't want to have a website

where people, to me, this kind of work is very personal. So yeah, a lot of information is on the websites and that's lovely. But to me, if someone really wants to talk deeper about something or really talk about a problem they're having at work, let's talk, let's have a conversation. And then I can show them how the archetypal model could help them, you know, solve some of these very common issues that they're not the only ones who have but it's a novel approach that is to me much more efficient and effective and people love it because it is so fun it's like wow I've been seen I've been looked at properly somebody cares about me enough to to you know do this assessment with me and and now look about look at look at how my

relationship has changed. I know tons of stories of people who didn't talk for years in a company and now they do because they have this archetypal language. There's so many different ways you can apply this. It's a really useful tool. It's just a tool, but it is a very useful tool. Like one of those multi-tools, you know,

you can use for, that has everything on it. Well, that's beautiful.'s a that's a wonderful uh intro to your work and i hope that this connects you with some people who want to learn more about those things so um we can leave it there and i will link to all of these things below but we move like roman soldiers into the wilds of the psyche to fix under cancelling star hermes and Aphrodite