The Team House - 22 SAS Operator 🇬🇧 | Melvyn Downes | Ep. 268

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

Support the show here ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Melvyn had a 24-year military career, in which he served with distinction. Born and bred in Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, Melvyn left school at 16 years old and joined the army. In 1991, he led his patrol into combat in the first Gulf war and completed three tours of duty in Northern Ireland, in charge of a platoon of 30 men. Melvyn joined the elite special forces in 1994. During his 12 years in the SAS, he led top-secret missions, served behind enemy lines and achieved the prestigious rank of Warrant Officer. Follow Melvyn on Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/melvyndownes/?hl=enCheck out Melvyn’s new Youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@ExSASMelvynDownes------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Today's Sponsor:Legacyhttps://www.givelegacy.com/To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#sas #specialairserviceBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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Covert Ops. Espionage, the Teamhouse, with your host, Jack Murphy and David Park. Welcome to episode 268 of The Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave, and our guest on tonight's show is Melvin Downs, who served in the British military, starting as a boy soldier at age 16, went all the way up and retired as a sergeant major in the Special Air Service. We're really really, excited to have him on the show tonight. You guys can find him on Instagram at Melvin Downs. That's N-E-L-V-Y-N-D-O-W-N-E-S. Go check him out. And you'll find links in the description to his Instagram and also his YouTube channel that's going to be popping probably next week.

So, Dave, you want to do a quick. We just, well, first off, welcome, Malvin. We really appreciate you being here. Thanks, Jack. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, thanks, Tim. mouse and it's great to be able to chat to you guys, especially across the pond. Yeah, exactly. Before we get started, we just want to give a shout out, quick shout out to our sponsor, Legacy at givelegacy.com. Legacy provides sperm testing and freezing from home, eliminating the need for visits to a doctor

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And back to you, Melvin. I want to jump right into it and ask you about your origins and kind of your upbringing, how you came to be, what your upbringing as a kid was like and how that sort of propelled you towards military service. Yeah, sure. Well, to start with, my dad, he came from Jamaica in the early 50s, 1952, from, from, the ring from the wind rush era and he came to rebuild the UK after the Second World War and then

he met my mom and met here in Stoke-on-Trent. Now if you don't know about UK, Stoke-on-Trents, it's in the Midlands, it's in the heart of the country and at that time especially in Stoke-on-Trent the area where my dad settled because he went down the pits being a miner and the area he settled in was an area

called Bento Lee. Now Bentlee was a large council housing estate which I think is a bit like the projects over your way. But it was a brand new one. It was a massive estate. Actually when it first got built in the 50s it was the largest in Europe. It was massive. But the difference was

in this estate it was just mainly white working class because this is back in the 50s. And he met the mom and their parents at that time didn't like the idea of a black guy going out, a Jamaican black guy going out with a white girl. And they were both young, very, very young. So she left home and he just went and made their way anyway.

My dad worked hard. He settled in this estate. And that's where I was brought up and Bentley County County. I was in the state. But what was a, well, not a problem, but what I was looked at as different because there was literally an handful. of black people on that estate. And there was something like 11, 12,000 people on that estate.

And it was mainly white working class minors and, you know, wild working people. And so there we were we settled, there was a lot, especially, you know, I was born in 64, so by the time I got there, it was 67. I could remember it. It was, there was a lot of racial tension back in them days. So I had a lot of bullying, a lot of hard knocks growing up. and so did my dad we got their

auspergled we had petitions people didn't want us there I think it was just it was just a totally different time and a different theory you know however I I'm thankful that the positive was it made me the person who I am because I literally going to school

in my year there was like one of a well in the entire school there's one of a black guy and an Asian girl so that's what it was the case of so for me very young age I was bullied and I had to fight back and my dad told me five back

but apart from that you know it was just that time and I made the best friends there and the way I look at it if it was the other way around if it was just a couple of white guys or a mixed race family living in a large black area

it'd be exactly the same you get picked on until you know people knew where you were and and then my dad especially he's really respectful person, but he'd also stand up for himself. So even he, you know, he'd fight his battles and he'd be proud and all that. So growing up was quite difficult, but like I said, it made me the person they are. And I made really good friends there.

I'm not knocking a place. I still love the area. It was just a total different area. And the way I look at it, if you go back at 30 years from then or whatever, you know, women didn't even have the vote, I don't think, you know. and let alone gay people being welcomed in anywhere and so on. So it was just a different time and a different place. But as I said, so growing up, it was quite difficult,

but you had to learn to fight and look after yourself, and basically that was it, or you just get bullied and trodden on. Anyway, I always want to go in the military, because the Jamaicans, they love the Queen. And it was the Motherland. That's what they called the Caribbean. and he used to make me stand up whenever the National Anthem

was on TV and then I'd be watching all the trooping of the colours and from the very young age I just loved anything to do with the military so that was it I was hooked on it so 11 years old I joined what was known as the army cadets say it's a bit like the scouts you fire weapons as well

but it's all military minded so you learn navigation skills you learn survival you go camping you learn medical skills you learn medical skills and to me that's what I really enjoyed because I'm not at all academic in the school we went back in the day it was you just did what you want really so that made sense to me it was doing something what I thought okay that this is what's needed in life whereas trying why do you not need know about geology or geography you know

what sort of stones this and that so that was me I was upped on going in the military so I joined the army cadets at 16 I mean sorry 11 and then at 6 when once left school, two weeks later, I was in the British Army. As a 16-year-old, you do what's known as it's a junior leaders battalion or junior infantry. So you're a soldier, but you can't go on operational tours. So instead of doing, if you joined when you were, say, 18, you would spend something like 18 weeks basic training. Whereas as a 16-year-old, you do one year's basic training. And as you know, basic training stuff.

So we had a longer time of it. But I loved every minute of it. And I actually got, they give you a rank system there. So I made it to Sergeant Major in the junior army. And that was because I was in the cadet. So I already knew some basic drill and basic tactics and some weapons and navigation and first aid. So I really shone then. Anyway, from 16 then I went to my parent unit, which was an infantry unit.

and back in the day you go to their normal infantry unit which was around your area so I joined the Staffordshire Regiment and it's all guys from the Midlands where I am from Stokon Trent and Birmingham area

so you sort of know people it's like the old Pals Regiment they're starting it's not as much now they've sort of changed a bit like the American system where you can be from all over the place but here it was mainly guys from all certain

area at the UK about say 70% would be from that area. So I loved that and I loved everything about the military. My first posting was Gibraltar. So I had a year out there to me. Ah, it's fantastic. This was a 17 year old and when we moved back to UK as an 18 year old. And then we started training up to go to Northern Ireland. So I went on the first operational tour of Northern Ireland as a, I was 19 by the time we got there. And back in this time, this is like 1984, I was in the actual

close observation platoon. And what this meant is just lying in bushes for up to 10 days and nights observing where terrorists, likely terrorist there, houses where reporting on them and so on. So it was like a specialist platoon within the infantry. And I really enjoyed that.

However, that was like the first taste of operations. And then I ended up losing a good friend there and a couple of others. So then you realize, wow, this for real. But it was really unusual because Northern Ireland it's part of Great Britain and you could be walking in one street and everybody loves you and then you cross the road into another street and everybody ate you

you and then you cross the road and so on and there you are as a young soldier you just try and be neutral keep the peace and it's just really confusing. Anyway that was my first operational tour and then that's when I really got wind of the SAS because what used to happen we'd be lining these observation post, watching a terrorist house and just

seen for activities. And then if we potentially sort of think we've seen something like maybe weapons moving in and out and so on, we pass up

to our HQ and then suddenly you'd have these other guys come in, move us out, and these guys turn up like with beards and everything.

I'm like, who it is? And they go in there and then they take over the job if they think it's going to go down. And then I found

out these were the SES. I thought, right, this is what I want to be doing. I want to be joining this. So that was my first time. Actually, I had any indication of joining Special Forces. But I'll tell you what happened later on as I go through my career about why I got put off that.

Anyway, I came back from that first tour of Northern Ireland, and then we went to Germany. And that's like when the first time I've sort of started working with Americans or met Americans because we'd go down to American bases and you had all the lovely PXs and stuff like that. So we was over there for the Cold War

and then I went back to Northern Ireland for a second tour but this time I was a corporal so I was in charge of eight people so the first time was the private and the second time was a corporal. Anyway, in between this we had a lot of guys go for the SCS selection

for my unit but it'd only ever been one guy getting before and one officer and I didn't know him and you know we have lot and lots of guys trying, but very, very few get in. As I said, I was actual a third-ever person. But many go for it, and then they come back with excuses. Instead of just saying, I wasn't good enough, a VW'd,

they come back with all, the instructor didn't like me, or he's this, that, and the other. I remember this guy, and he was a really good guy, and he got to the jungle phase, then he came back. And I said to him, right, I want to go for that. And he said, no, you can't go for that, Mal. I goes, why is that? He goes, oh, because you're black. I goes, what's that got to do with it?

And he said, well, we work all, it's mainly in Northern Ireland, under cover, they have to hang around the bars and blend in. Back in that day, there's no way, you know, I haven't got ginger hair and fretsles. I couldn't come across as an Irish spirit. Being black in Ireland, you've got to be hard as nails. Yeah, yeah. So I thought, okay, that's a fair point. So I never even thought about going for the SS again until we had this officer

came to our unit and he did two years in the SS. And I remember seeing him and he come to my company. And he was just so different than the normal officers. Normally, you know, you get some good officers, but in the British Army, you have some officers. They just turn up and they walk in the dog and they're watching all the troops doing their work. And they're more concerned with doing how good you are at drilling, inspections. And they've got a big shack on the camp and they want to make sure everything's immaculate and so on.

This guy, he didn't want any of that. bothered with the bullshit and if you were good at drill or how good the rooms were and how clean the rooms were. All he was concerned is if you could shoot, move and communicate you as a good soldier on the ground. And he was different. He was there with you all the time. And he really inspired me. Anyway, he goes to me, this was after I've done the second tour of duty in Ireland. He goes to me, why don't you go for the SS? And I told him the exact same story. I said, and he goes, why is that? I goes, because I'm being black. And he just thought, and I told him that, you know, I have to go undercover an island.

And he just burst out laughing. He goes, obviously you couldn't go sitting in a pub. You'd stick out there. But you could be on the reactive side, the covert side, and there's lots more goes on than the will that. Right. Then you think about it. You should go for it.

So that was me then convinced. I'm like, right, I'm going to go for this. So this is now about 19, yeah, 19, and a 1890. And I've just done a second tour of the duty of Northern Ireland. So that's two operational tours. Anyway, I put an normal paperwork for go on the SES selection, and by this time it was 1990, and then we was an armoured infantry regiment now,

because we was based in Germany, and we got the new armoured fighting vehicle, which was the warrior at the time, a bit like your Bradley. So I was a corporal in charge of, including myself, 10 people in this vehicle. And then we got told about the Gulf War, and all that was starting to stir up,

and we was going to be going over there. So I withdrew my paperwork, because I thought there's no way I'm going to go on SS election when my unit's going to go to war. Right. So I've been doing my paperwork and then we went over on the first golf

on the first Gulf War in the 1990 until 1991. And we was deployed over there. We actually went on something like the August and we were just hanging around the desert doing all the maneuvers and everything. And it was fantastic because they give you that much ammunition because you were the buildup for the war.

And again, working with the US Marines at stages. You know, sometimes we'll have changeovers. They come in our vehicles. We're going there, Bradley's all tactics together. And it was great. I really enjoyed all that. And then, but we never thought that war would happen.

However, then when it did, even though it was only on, you know, four days and night, it was short and sharp. And that was like the first introduction to proper combat. And on that, you know, I was in my first real engagement. and we lost a couple of guys, saw it happen, and we took objective. So that was like a proper combat scenario. Anyway, we came back from there in 91.

Before moving on, I mean, could you tell us about that firefight and what transpired there? Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, what it was, we was told, right, okay, we was armored infantry, so it was an infantry battalion in their armed fighter vehicles working close with the challenge of tanks. is in support so you'd work together and then we get orders

to go we're going to be attacking this position so we dug in on the border first of all watching all the bomb bomb and go off for about a month and then it came right this is it now it's happening we're going in and remember all the MRLS is going in all the rockets

and it was like it was shaking our vehicle so I'm in the back with all the lads and I'm like just think how bad it is on that side you know we're on this side. Anyway, we thought we was going to go to do this attack, and when we got

there, there was nothing left. It was just bodies and people wanting surrender and so on. And then that happened again, and we heard over the radio that a couple of our guys had been injured in another company, and they had a full-on attack. So in a way, we was like, come on, we want to have our share, you know what I mean?

And we just thought nothing's going to happen because every time we got to somewhere, it was over the first, say, 48 hours, there was just nothing left and people just wanting surrender. And then we were told, right, okay, we're going to this other area. And instead of being a battalion size, it's only in a company-sized location. We're just going to attack that. But when we got there, literally, a tamp being touched.

There was hundreds and hundreds of guys coming out of the trenches. And most of them wanted to render. However, we started getting incoming and the Warriors. So then we were told move forward and take the objective. And it was really confusing because then as you were taking the objective, there was also people trying to surrendering and his pockets are enemy firing. What happened was, and this is what I'd say, this is one of the proudest days still in my military career,

because we was told as a commanders were told, you have to be in the back of the vehicle when you open them doors so you can push the bloke's out, make sure everybody gets out when the incoming starts. But I said to my bloke, I'll be at the door, at the front door, and I'll be the first out, make sure you guys follow me. Because if you don't, and I come back, I'll be an happy bear. You know what I mean? I wanted to be in.

Anyway, and one time, we was getting the incoming. We could hear the incoming on the vehicle, and we knew was getting a lot of incoming. We got through an area, and we did buzz. And I looked left and right, and you've got all your guys there, and then just started doing the drills. Because, as you know, when you practice drills that much,

you forget about all the other shit-butts going on. you're just into that drill mode, which is brilliant. Anyway, that was happening, and then took a position, and people surrender, and then about 50 metres to the right, there was a bunch of Iraqis waving white flags and wanting surrender. So, Ma'amake's vehicle went to the side, and it was bizarre. Watched it happened, and they were debuzz,

and they come around the side of their vehicle, and as they come around the side of their vehicle, these guys, somebody fired an RPG from this group, and he took the sand and bounced up and then the entire war had it one of the guys, Carl Malt, went through him hit the vehicle but then went up in the air

and sort of exploded in the air and the two lads next to him right by him nothing happened to him they just thought it was the smoke discharges going off and all white phosphorus and so and that happened literally 50 meters away right in front of us

so that was obviously telling it and so on So that was like the fierce full-on combat. Because before we're in Northern Ireland, we've had things happening with terrorists, but not a proper full-on-on-five. Military-on military battle. Yeah.

Yeah, it is bizarre. And then we carried on moving forward. Then the next day, we were alted right on the Basra Road. And we told, wait there. And we didn't realize then, but this was the end. We got to go. That was it.

And it was just as the Basraud, literally it must have been hours before. all the vehicles were moving up from Kuwait, and the Iraqis just trying to run up this Basra road and get back into Iraq and Baghdad, or wherever, the Basra and Baghdad. So they were leaving Kuwait coming up, and it's a six-lane highway.

So they had all their tanks on their sides going up, and their vehicles, and they stole all civilian vehicles, including coaches and whatever. And they were all just literally bumper-to-bumper vehicles, and you can imagine the coalition forces just went up and down the road and just blitzed everything. So it was a really bizarre side. We stopped there

and there were still burning vehicles, there were bodies everywhere. Most of the vehicles were completely burnt out. But a lot of them, they've just been shot up and they haven't been touched. And we was told right, we're waiting here now, and the rumours come that it's going to be the end of the war, and that was it. And we just sat there.

And we said, don't move because we've been dropping our own minds around the area the Air Force had. So there's all mines everywhere, but you know what it's like, the tell you stop, and I'm a corporal in charge of my tank, I'm like this, you're bored, and you start just looking around and checking everything out.

And, yeah, it was just a really weird scene. It was like a scene from Hal all these burnt-out vehicles, and you go on a coach, and this one coach, all these dead Iraqis that's end, but the vehicle aren't set on fire, So it was just like something from an horror movie, you know,

it was really weird because you hadn't seen anything like that before. And it took about three days before the engineers came up and then moved all, started moving all the vehicles and that off. So that was it. So it was like a short and sharp at war, really.

Anyway, I came back from that. Now this is 91. And then I thought, right, I'm going to go straight on SES selection. However, they put me straight on my sergeant's course and I went to. on this, I thought, right, okay, this will be good, because you have to do this course, even within the SES.

But once you, in the SES, if you get, once you get to the rank of sergeant, so I thought, if I get the course in now, that's a bonus and it will give me more experience. So I went to this course, as soon as I passed it, they made me up to my sergeant, now I've got a four platoon, and we also got an emergency tour of Northern Ireland. So this is my third tour of Northern Ireland. First time it was a private, second time a corporal in charge. charge of eight guys and now I've got 30 guys and a young lieutenant

because basically the sergeants would run it anyway so I thought right I can't go on SES selection now why my guys are going to Northern Ireland again so I did another tour of Northern Ireland and by the time I finished that it was we got we moved back to Germany

and that's when the family got to go on SAS selection so I thought to myself while I've had three operational tools of duty of Northern Ireland I've been in a proper full-on war. I'm already a sergeant with 12 years of experience in the infantry and Arbid infantry. I thought, right, I'm, you know, I'm good to go. I've got, you know, I'll be good for the special forces. I'll be hitting the ground running.

Boy, little do you know. And then once you get in there, within about 18 months, you've done a lot more. And it's just like craziness, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, you do so much. So, anyway, I went on to election. So now this is January 19, 1990. I went on a winter selection course

and they actually passed the first time and I got into the D-Squod and S-A-S. So that was the start of my military career. It's an amazing start the way you phrase it to start. I mean, you did four deployments with the conventional military, including combat. What was it like, you know,

you're a platoon sergeant going to SAS selection? I mean, what was that experience like? I mean, it feels like maybe you were better prepared for it than, say, you know, a younger junior guy who didn't have as much experience. Yeah, sure, Jack. And in hindsight, I'm glad now, looking back, that when I first wanted to go for it, I most probably want to, you know, pass. You never know. But I don't think I was mature enough at the time. Yeah.

So I had a lot more experience. However, you find most bloke's who go on it were senior Atlanta corporals and corporals. you get a few sergeants on it. And even to go on it, you've got to have done, back then, you start to have done at least three years and being at a certain standard. So generally, you get guys who are really up for it. And especially nowadays, they have to take everyone

who wants to go on their selection, and they go away for a beat-up first. They have a weekend in every third, and they do all basic texts, just to make sure they had fit enough to at least start the course. Because what was happening in the past, lots of guys were putting in to go on this course.

And then even if they failed and come back after a week, they would looked upon as an hero because nobody knew anything about this. That's what I said. I never did. And it was like, wow. And they were coming about all these stories. But you still give them so much respect because they went there, you know. Right.

It was just that type of scenario. So, yeah, in eyesight, yeah, it did. It did definitely help me because of having the experience. But as you know, it's, it's a totally. different way of life. I say like the normal army, as we call the Green Army, it's great. I really enjoyed it. You know, you always go back to your roots. I love that time as being a sergeant and having troops and command. But when you're getting to the special forces, it's totally different. Instead of being formal, it's informal. It's informal. Everybody knows you by your name. There's no saluting. There's no yes, sir, no say. There's no bullshit like marching around, no whining the kick. It's just because you haven't got time.

everything's operations operations operations and if you're not on operations preparing for an operations and if you're not preparing for an operations you're on an intense training you know training and getting over courses going and then last but not least there's a bit of leave if you can ever fit it in and as you know you just that that's that's a luxury so it was just full on I and I really I really enjoyed that the selection process don't get me wrong it was the artist physical and mental thing I've done in my life

and that's what it's meant to be it's meant to push you to your physical limits and also psychological your mental limits but what nearly broke me is when I first got there mine was the first combined one where the Marines the SBS and SES did the entire

course together because prior to this the SPS used to do their own ill's phase the aptitude phase part and then you'd all meet up in the jungle and this was the first time everybody was together so there was all these big marines because they generally marines in our military do more fitness it's a it's an harder course get in than their normal army than the normal infantry and then you got the

paris and they do more fitness they have to do generally the more difficult get in the paris than a normal infantry course even though infantry is great these guys do a bit more training so a lot of the people who go for the special forces are from either a parachute background or a marine background. And I remember going there and looking at these guys, and some of them, you think, man, mountains, you know, I nearly sight myself out of it thinking,

because I was the only guy from my unit and there's 200 people there. I'm looking at these guys thinking, they could walk forever with a mountain on the back. And then you've got these very, very intelligent officers. I listened to all these officers speaking, and I'm just lying on my bump bed, you know, you're all just in big rooms. I'm listening to these guys,

the officers and they were saying, oh, about their university, and they were coming out with these big words, I didn't even know what they meant, you know what I mean? I'm like, God, one, I'm not going to be fit enough, and two, I'm not intelligent enough for this. So I nearly signed myself out. But then, as you start the course, suddenly you see these big, thick guys are just falling out of it.

Because mentally, it doesn't matter, it's up there, as you know, you keep going, and the pain barrier is the same for everyone. So you're pushing yourself. and pushing yourself and that sort of motivated me and then and also I had an incident what happened there

again going onto not so much a bullying incident but it was a bit of a racial incident what happened there and mine on my bump bed and all these guys they're talking about the routes that they're going to go on

and they had a bunch of six lads all from the parrots and they were talking about the think this is going to be the next route I had no idea nobody really does but there's only so many routes you can go around the bridge

reckon beacons there's only so many ills there you know you can go up these mountains one day but you don't know which mountain and these guys thought they knew the area and they were all just talking together so I'm lying on my bump bed and I was just like a normal infantry guy I jumped up to him I goes hi guys um did you mind if I have a look at the map do you mind if you let me know this and one of them just turned around and you know because you went parotrained they started calling names and one of them come out with like a a racial word, a really bad slayer. And I was so angry, because I was always told,

stick up for yourself. And it didn't, because I thought to him, the back of my mind, if I start arguing a fight with these guys, one, one there was five or six of them, they'd battered me. But it wasn't that. I've been battered all my life, but I stood up myself, stood up for myself.

It doesn't matter if you get kicking. You've just got to, you've got to defend yourself against the bully. But I fought him a dad, and I'm like, shit, he would go mad. however I can't get kicked off this course but that was one of the best things because that was the incentive then I thought right

there's no way I'm going to leave this course before any of them guys and I didn't and as the else as we got worse and worse I remember pushing on and then watching a couple of these guys leave and before you know the 200 what started the course went down to you know about just under 40 and that was what was left going to the jungle and then we went on the jungle phase

and I'd never been in the jungle before And I remember this same guy saying, oh, we'll see how all these hats. That's what they call the normal infantry. They'll say how these guys go in the Jay and the jungle because he's been there before and so on. And I'm like, okay. Anyway, when we get to the jungle, again, I wouldn't leave until, you know,

there's no way I'm going to leave this course until that guy, at least. And these guys, a couple of them left. Eventually, I saw him leave. He just VW'd voluntary withdrawal, because at any time you want, you can just say, I've had enough, and just go to the helicopter in the jungle, and just wait, and get the next helicopter out. And I watched them go, and that was about two weeks into the jungle.

And then I thought to myself, wow, who've got go-for now? This is my incentive. I'm like, shit, I've just got to carry on now and get through this. But I did, and the main thing was, even though you've never been in the jungle before, you get taught everything. And that's all the selection processes, and that really is all what the special forces is to start.

at the beginning. They just want you do the basics properly and they teach you something. And so to me it was like, right, I'm doing exactly. They tell me, stay there, don't move. I stay there, don't move. They tell me, let's that and the other. I would just do it to the letter and just got through it. So, yeah, I got through the jungle stage and this is, most people say this is where they pick you because you watched, there's a group of four of you and you sort of watch 24-7. You know, the instructors will come with night vision goggles or whatever. And they like to see, they like to watch when they don't think you,

when you don't think anybody's around. They like to see what's going on in the background. See who's helping each other, make a model. See who's the DSDS watcher, who's the only works when, like, the instructors around and so on. So they get to know the person really well. and you got you can't hide in that jungle

you know and you can't get out of it so that's where you pick sort of name anyway but when you finish that you go and arguably I'd say this was the most difficult part as going on to the

survival part and the interrogation part where you go on the run because let's face it even the ill's phase if you were really fit civilian and you were very good at navigation and you're very determined,

you could get really through the aptitude phase, tabbing over the mountains and hills. And, you know, getting through the jungle, yeah, very, very difficult. But maybe you could get through that. But how do you train your mind? How do you train yourself? Right.

For going on the run for so many days and nights and then getting beastied for 36 hours. You just don't go through that. And to me, that's where they push you to your... Obviously, they try push you to your physical limits, but without injuring you. They don't want people there. but unfortunately on some sometimes on courses we've had people badly injured or the odd person die it's part of it but even they put all the safety measures in it it happens because you push that much physically and then mentally it's the same they won't push you to your breaking limits but they've got to get an happy medium because they push you too far then you know that's it you're it's all to fix the mind and again on this I remember seeing a smofy say and I thought to myself he's really intelligent you remember everything they've told you

told him and but I couldn't believe it he left the course because he just started speaking and started writing things down and everything because everybody goes to that stage where they completely tired and the hallucinating and you know what's like the sleep declaration declaration yep I remember just watching this this guy giving me an interrogation and literally his edge just turned into Mickey Mouse because you were you were hallucinated I'm like God Almighty. So to me, that was the most difficult part.

I thought, wow, if this was at the beginning, I'd be out of here, but you know this was the last part of it. And that was it. So I do believe it's a fantastic course, and I know your courses are very, very similar. We run in the same way, don't we? You do all these type of phases, go through the fitness phase, the mind game phase and so on.

But I do believe it does, it changes here, and they do iron out what's left of it right they put a bunch of people together and what comes out it's something quite unique at the end because everybody's the same even though what david staley now founding father said this was the sass c force and i only thought about it really once i got out in detail he said every person who gets in the s ss they've got to have this they've got to have classlessness humility integrity the chute of excellence and a suit of excellence and a censor humor. And I thought to myself, that is fantastic. You put them five points together. And so classlessness, that means you can work with people from different backgrounds, different

races, different religions, different classes of society, you know, very rich people, people. But they're all in the same group. They all have got that common goal. So you're all getting on. And if you've got this, not only in the special forces, it's a bonus for the rest of life. no matter what job you're in. You can be working in. McDonald's, nothing to work, the problem with that. But if you can just go for that ethos, classlessness, and then humility, you know, nobody likes somebody who's just,

you've got to be humble, you know, but you've got to be confident, but not arrogant. You've got to be a, a normal person, basically, and that's a lie. And not everybody can get on with somebody no matter what job. And then integrity, nobody likes a liar. you prefer a fifth than a liar and as you know you've got to roll jans up yeah we all make mistakes

you've got to admit it if you for instance everybody wants to go on operations but if you were injured you've got to and nobody people try and fake in they'll do anything to you know take all them painkillers or whatever they don't want that back start because they won't get on that

operation but they've got to hold their hand up and say no this or for instance we've had people on certain jobs pull out of the job job and pull their team out because they could have got a compromise and that's a big no-no but really they did the right thing but at the time it was looked on as bad you know you've got you've got to be honest and integrity is massive and in any way place and then finally the last two is pursuit of excellence i always say if you're going to be i remember saying to me and i kept the same if i was

if you're going to be a tom which is a private be a good tom so even though i joined as a sergeant You go down to a trooper, and I found myself in the SES. You've been used to commanding 30 people. Next minute, I'm owning a pair of ladders, and everybody's ruined up the building, and I'm the ladder older. That was my job. But I made sure he was the best ladder older. You had the correct diet.

You got there quicker and faster. You practiced on wherever you were doing it on a coach, on a building. You know, so no matter what job you're in, the suit of excellence, if you're going to be a cleaner, be the best clean. Because somebody will notice you in that line of work. And just have pride in your job. If you're going to be the best machine going on it, and then finally, a sense of humour, and let's face it,

you've got to have a sense of humour in life no matter what. And as you know, the military, we've got, it's a different type of sense of humour. Yeah. I think the closest to us is emergency services and people like that. It's a dark humour. Yeah. And you've got to, aren't you?

And like even the worst, even in the most dangerous places and all, when unfortunately we've all lost good friends but it's the piss state you just start having a laugh about all the things what went on with this guy and all the

mistakes he made all the problems we had and all the laugh together and you just sort of we call it taking a piss out of each other and so on it's that banter and Seve Street it's a frowned upon a lot more but in the in the army the Special Test Forces

Sensium is massive so I do believe that ethos, it's fantastic in any career. So that's what comes out of selection. They do look for all this, and especially when they're in the jungle part. So you get all these guys together, and on hours, there was 200

started, and then at the end, there were six SES soldiers, and then four SBS. So there's only 10 of us, and I remember looking at all the guys, and there was only one guy taller and bigger than me, and everybody else was just normal, normal build, or small, and smaller,

know, you're like, well, just the normal, normal blokes get through it. And yeah, so I do believe it's a great selection process that our militaries go through to produce a special forces soldier. So after you go through selection, you complete your training, you land in D-Squadron. I mean, you mentioned a little bit about how you went back down to essentially being like kind of a private in the SAS, you know, starting, like, starting over from as a junior guy. But could you tell us a little bit about, like, the culture of D-S-squadron, what it was like being in a team room with a bunch of, like, seasoned S-AS operators?

I mean, what was that experience like for you as a new, new guy there? Oh, God, it was really unusual with this, because you go in there, and I remember getting introduced to the Sartre and you're calling him saying, and it's like, no, my name's, he said his name and you're, yeah, and every now and again you're calling me, no, don't call me serious, none of that shit. And then I remember looking around the team room and you think to yourself, you go and get there and everybody's going to be really fit, and then I'm looking at it, and there's all

shapes and sizes, I'm like, wow, this just doesn't look like special. You know, not my vision of a special forces guy, but what you, what I soon found out is you've got guys who've just come back from Northern Ireland where they've been playing, not playing,

operational, but blended in with the I already pretending to be a civi and so on. Right. So they make out like them and they're sitting in bars and all the rest of it and people would come from different posts and yet all these guys, they were still, they'd carry all that kit and they were still, you know, because there was no organised PT sessions. You just have to keep yourself shit and you could do the job. So all these guys, they could do the job, but they were just all different shapes and sizes and

that really shot me. also what shot me was when I first got there, you're here about the squadrons and you think, right, you've got in the normal military, you've got a command structure, you got the company, so many platoons, platoon sergeants and so many commanders. We get there and literally, in some groups, there's only eight, and instead of 16 and then another groups, these 12, none of them, nobody was up to strength. And you could have so many sergeants and then just a couple of troopers. But they all just got on. Everybody had a, had a, yeah, a row.

And also everybody had to say, I remember being there and straight away we're getting briefs for operations and then the guys putting their words and the officers are talking about the plan and so are the blokes.

And then they go around the table and they're asking me. I'm like, wow. And they ask every single person doesn't matter if you've been the newest guy or the oldest guy and they take other people's opinions as well. But obviously the book stops with

who's ever, charge but that's what was really pleasing to see and then the amount of responsibility so you come out you start as a trooper but it's not that everybody's just so gets on you know the bosses and so on and then suddenly you get taken away okay Mal you and you now you're going to go on this you're going to go on this course next minute you're away doing forward air controlling and then next and then you're away as an individual or just a pair of you you've got so much responsibility you're in charge of all this

operational there where usually it's just a certain officer in the RAF or in the artillery and that's just their main job you just get sent there just for a few weeks or a few months do it and a couple of other guys will come and take over and so on and then you find yourself actually I've had to pinch myself I found myself like briefing a general and talking to a general and you know he's pushing all these offices out the way and he come and he comes to where we were this was in Bosnia and he come okay what's all they you're speaking to him and it's like yeah boss and right what do you think of it and what's your

opinion and you think to yourself god almighty you've got that much responsibility but what i find it's more strategic responsibility was whereas before it's just it's mainly tactical responsibility you and your troops on the ground this was what you say and do it can get it can go all the way up to a very very uh high standard so yeah i i I really enjoyed it. It was just something totally different. But what I always remember is as soon as we've passed,

we've got a clock tower and it's famous within Erifid in the camp. And it's known as you've got to beat the clock because since the Second World War or I think there's only been one year there's never been a name on that clock. And to get your name on the clock,

you don't want your name on the clock because you've got to die either on operations or within training. and as soon as we got a berries there was no big parade it was just like Chucky Berry right down you were going to these squad and such and such

you're going to the squad and the officer who passed us out I remember him saying listen enjoy it it'll be over in an heartbeat and then he said and also make sure you beat the clock

and I didn't know what that meant what's all this but then over the years when you go back and you see that clock and then you know all your mates you've got that many different people you know on the clock and it's just like wow what a and then where did them 12 years go you've had 12 years have been in because out of their 12 years they did in the sas i had 10 of them years was

just at the point of the in the sabre squadron you know at the point of the spear because you have four sass squadrons you have a b d and g and they all do the the same thing they just rotate round you know going on operations going on counter-terrorists and doing training and so on But as you guys know, straight after, as soon as 9-11 happened, that was it. Instead of having one group on operations, one group training, one group on counterterrorism and so on, and you had a sort of a rotation. Then that just all went out of the window because operations are number one. So sometimes they'd be the entire, all the three squadrons were on operations,

and no matter what, there'd always be one squadron, what, would have to stay in the year. UK because they either counter-terrorist squad just in case, you know, a big terrorist incident happened and the police couldn't take it on, something like a plane being hijacked or something like the London, I mean, the embassy is getting taken on. So sometimes it was like, obviously, training and leave, go out there, it's just operations, operations, operations, operations, but I enjoyed that. I really did. So I found myself, as soon as I got there, I was, what, one of the first thing I was doing was carrying a coughing of somebody who died from the squadron. I didn't know him, but he died, and he only came in on, he was on the selection before me.

I didn't know him, but I found myself as part of the coffee, coffin bearing team, because the lads, most of the lads couldn't get back for the funeral. I'm like, wow, and that just showed me how thick and fast it was, and nobody knew about this, obviously, because it's like secretive operations, what were going on and so on, but it was just a, how can I say? There's something that was just went so fast and at times so enjoyed. As you know, you don't have time really think about it until you leave the military. Yeah, yeah.

And so on. But even me, I was very, very lucky, I think, because it's been over 40 years of either being in the British military in the special forces or training in small teams with special forces guys or training special forces, foreign special forces. been in that type of community. So I had a nice transition of going from once I got out eventually doing training for foreign special forces, which was great because you're just there training them and you're playing with weapons every day.

You're working with light-minded people and the American Special Forces and Australian Special Force and British Special Forces and we all got on and we're all team. And because talking to that, I find the Brits and the Americans, We've just got that common bond. I remember going over to your... The first time I ever worked with Americans was 1984 from an infantry unit. We went over to Fort Lewis and Washington

and it was the Airborne Rangers. Yeah. And God, I looked that place and we ended up going there, where was it, is Lake Tahoe? No. Tom, near Southle as well. Lake Tahoe is down to Nevada. Yeah, Nevada.

Oh, yeah, I went there. That's a different time. But Tacoma, you were in our... Tacoma. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember going on to that camp and I'm thinking, shit, because we have like garrison places, which are a bit bigger, but a lot of times it's just a battalion base, which is only 800 people. And then you've got just civis around you. Your camp, that Fort Lewis, I'm like, God, it's like a city. And it was just so different than the British military camp and the food and everything else. It was just, God. And I love the training there, apart from where did we go, Yakima. And it was winter survival.

God, almighty it was cold, but we went to Crystal Mountain and Dead Skiy and that. So that was my first look at working and being involved with the US. And I loved it. And then since then, we also, when we was back to Germany, he used to go down to the PX and stuff like that. And even we used to do training in Canada, but the guys, we was right on the Canadian border, go down to Montana because we loved it.

And then in the first golf, again, we did a lot of cross-training. and then once I've gone to special forces one of the first things I remember the team what was involved in Black Hawk Down they came across and give us briefs because we always have cross briefs together where you guys and other special forces unit come across and I think we go across to yours

and we give each other briefs and help each other out so them guys came and that was really interesting then I found myself going over to Fort Bragg and again what a place and massive and working with the Delta guys and who's the guys who was on some of the guys who came and gave us this brief, they were doing these courses for us

because we really liked the who were smaller brothers. You've got such great real estate and facilities than we'd come across. For instance, when we practice of blowing aircraft doors, we put wood up there and we got a metal aircraft and then we just blowing the wooden doors off. Come across to you guys

and we'd be blowing proper aircraft doors off and not just one, two, three a day. And he's like, wow. And, you know, you've got all the facilities. So that was really good. And also, apart from working and doing brag, and we do a lot of cross-training, a lot of your guys would come over to us.

But also worked, and that's where I got Tacoma, not Tacoma, Lake Tah. Because we had a long weekend. We went to Nevada, just two of us. They sent just two others doing some air controlling. And it was with the seals. And God, Almighty. York, I remember doing forward air controlling in the UK.

We've only got certain real estate where you can drop live and you can only do certain runs. So it gets a bit boring. You go to America. You've got that desert. God. I remember, they have, like, got there. They had a built-up area and they have two 25-millimeter howitzers,

what with fire white phosphorus, and you could use them to mark targets. Did have guys with stinger missiles so they could be, you know, target the aircraft. you'd have what remote control tanks and they'd drop chalk bombs on it and they'd make a balsa wood village and then you'd bomb the fuck out of it

oh sorry for swearing and then next day you'd come back and you built a new one and it's like this is oh god the facilities were amazing so yeah it's great and then once I left the special forces the very first thing they're dead

was go out working for American New Cruise crews with CBS News so with American teams, but it was like we were working with American media but it was just all a small team of four special forces guys. So basically I

got out after at the end of 2005 and I was in Baghdad but when all that fell and you know went across to the second Gulf War, went in the desert first of all and then into Baghdad and I remember then to say in rotations there are this place

it's a nightmare, never be back here again. Lo and be old, 18 months after getting out. I mean it was once a out the very first job. I was out in Baghdad, the exact places you were there before, but instead of being on the offensive where, you know, it's dangerous, but at the end, you're going to have all the backup, you're going to have

the medical support and everything. You're on the defensive, you're just getting in there, doing the filming and getting out, but you're still armed and everything, because you try to blend them with a news crew, so you'd have your weapon and say a tripod bag, and obviously your pistol down your pants, and your job is to protect

the news, but some of the instance, what happened there, I could go on all night about it and how dangerous that was. I'll get into that, Melvin. I'd love to hear some of those stories. But I would like to hear about the 2003 invasion, the second invasion

of Iraq, and what your experiences were like there with the SAS, if you can tell us a bit about that. Yeah. Well, what I would remember is, going back to that the first Gulf War, I remember that people we were saying, oh, there'd be special forces

behind there guiding them bombs on and so on and they're like, God, I wanted that one day and then won't be old, it was the second of Iraq war and we were building up for it while before we knew it was going to happen. It wasn't when, I mean, if it was just when, but we just, the beat up for it was such a long

time and we had certain squadrons, you know, certain squadrons were just, their main jobs was just Afghanistan and certain squadrons were just going to be Iraq. And so we had a good buildup for it. So by the time we got across there, It was, to me, it was a great finale because the original special forces with David Staling, as you know, in the desert, in the Second World War, were going out behind enemy lines and doing all the raids and creating Avaic.

And basically that's what we were dead. We went behind enemy lines, dropped off and got in all locations, and then just created Avaac and did all the proper special forces stuff. So ambushes and raids. It was fantastic. So we did that. And then our squadron, we got pulled out of there because we were told, right, okay, Baghdad's falling. So then we pulled out and went straight into Baghdad. So we had like a fair bit of time doing full-on combat and out in a desert rural. And then suddenly there was conversion and you were doing now urban.

Yeah. And this was like not just, you know, I've done urban before, but that was more. the cover type of stuff and we've done stuff in Bosnia and so on. But this was something else because it was just literally as Baghdad had just fallen and it was like we got attached to these, well, was it in the Marine, a Marine unit. But we was just doing it on thing. We had that deck of cards, that pack of 52. And it was a case of right, we're going to be getting theirs.

And sometimes you just have somebody coming in or they pass on to the military. They think they know where such and such is or such as a general, somebody from the bath pot. And it was like, right, okay, roll up and let's go get him. So we jump in your army in the Bradley's, your guys, the units we were with, they provide the outer cordon, and then we'd go in and do the CQB, because obviously we've specialised in that a lot with a, on the counter-terrorist team. So that was like a speciality of ours.

But it wasn't one, sometimes you're doing two, three a day, because you just have to go off here, say, so you didn't have time to do all the planning before. they've been on jobs where you've had a lot of time to plan and you've been in airy fed and then fast a bang you've gone away, done something and back in 48 hours there's been a lot of planning, a lot of reports and a lot of intelligence on the target you're going to

apprehend and so on. So it's usually like that. This wasn't any of that. It was a case of, right, a quick set of QBOs, quick battle orders. And sometimes we're just running, getting woke up, okay, roll in, right, I get my team. team together and you just blah blah blah and away you go or you're shouting out what you're going and be doing in the back of the noisy Bradley because it was that you know quick of the jobs

because you had to go if somebody come up to the gate they think they know where such and such is then away you go and obviously a lot of times you get there and they'd be the wrong place or nobody's there or they've just left but then other times we did get a few of them and then the other times it was what the remainder is who was there just their bodyguards and that so you just didn't know what to expect everything. time you went to the so it was to me it was a great sort of finale near the end

of my career because you had the full on rural side of it being behind enemy lines and doing that in the desert and then going on and having all the urban side of it so yeah that was fantastic and then as I said once it got out of myself

straight back in Baghdad but this time on the defensive a lot more dangerous as well I'd say during during that period of time in 2003 were there any particular like missions that kind of stood out in your mind is like this was really significant or whatever it was that kind of is prominent in your in your mind even today oh yeah there was a fair few missions and there was especially well in both parts on the rural side of when it was out in the desert uh because sometimes we literally went and did a reconnaissance

to this area where we was going to call in some air on a certain objective one night and we went to the check of the area just you know so many vehicles just rolled in there with all NVGs and it's just I remember thinking I'm so tired and that I'm seeing things

and I thought I was seeing things moving on the ground I thought what's that? It must be rabbits or something because we was driving along but we actually got on the road that's how cocky we were and how full of ourselves and we're just going along this road and either side I thought

I'm sure I've seen something on the ground and I was just, I never said anything and but my driver and the gun at the time they were saying when we spoke about it after they saw things anyway what it was, we went to check this area out

then next day we moved back to do the task what we was meant to be doing like calling in air and no kidding you when the air came it was just bonkers we was just in a massive area we was in the middle of a full on position so these

I'll tell you the story so we got out of this position like what the hell was that and next day we get the report from the predators what went over because we supposed to try the fly over

but the US your guys were using it and obviously it was your your resources so then we sort of went and blind to where we went on target and then next day they came and we got the full on report

one of the guys they did who was doing the extra and off he's only had his laptop and the back. And basically, he could see everything. We was inside a massive, massive position. So either side of the road, they could even show like four-man fire trenches.

So what I thought was moving and what was on the ground was it was actually Iraqi's heads popping up and then popping back down, you know? Oh, shit. Yeah, we were just... And because they didn't know who we were. Right. I think...

And they were real restaurant. when we were trying to get out of it after we called them, because what happened was, all the anti-aircraft weapons, they started turning and firing on us as well. So I'm like, what the hell? We thought we was getting mortared, and then we'd get back on this road to get out of it.

But then we saw Tracer coming across, not, you know, from the sides of us, and then you saw stuff coming over your head and landing in front of his exploding, you think, shit, I've got to get through that. You're like, what the hell was that what we went through? And then when we saw it, saw on the map where we were, you think, how day how did we get out of there? It was just amazing.

But then the next day he sent us back in the different area and do the same again. So, yeah, there was some full-on contacts there. And again, it's just by luck that you get out of these tasks, don't it? I'd say luck, but it's also good drills because everybody knows exactly what they're doing and moving and so on. but yeah as for being overpowered we was you know definitely a small fish in a big sea and then yeah there was many jobs of them once we went on inside the city itself and obviously I'm not allowed to say who we got but we got some big targets and we missed some targets just by you know literally minutes 20 minutes we could have got some big ones but yeah some full-on jobs there How was it for you working with, you know, whether they were active or National Guard, the armor units that were there to provide you guys cordon and support and things like that?

Was that a learning process for you guys or is it something that you had already been trained up on? No, I tell you the truth, I found myself, I haven't been years ago in the armoured, the mechanized unit, armed infantry unit. You know, I organized, I knew the tactics of armour. I've worked with armour before. But in Special Forces, we didn't, we'd never work with Armour before. So it was a bit of learning care, but they went out their way to facilitate it. And yeah, it worked very, very well. I must admit, you know, working with the US, not just US Special Forces, we worked.

with the US the Marines and then also with their army yeah but every every unit worked with it just so facilitating it's brilliant we really got on wow yeah and then after the invasion of Iraq you went to a special wing

of the SAS in 2004 yeah I went to a special wing at the time it was called EPW which is force projection wing they've changed the name of it now and that was like a specialist wing within the SES so I went to that and then after that that was when I was getting out and I decided to get out

I did my time I've done you know my full career and I thought to myself right do I stay here now do I get out I had a mate get out and then he said right come on this job working with the news which was great because I said to my wife at the time

when was my girlfriend I said right listen you've been used to me being away for months at a time and being away in dangerous areas. Now I'm going to carry on going away and it's a dangerous area, obviously looking after the press and Baghdad

when it was really dangerous then and just a small team. I says, however, we're getting money for it this time, but the difference was if something would have happened a couple years before and he was over there fighting for a country, it would have been a case of right, SES guy

dies in Eero, he died in Iraq. But then, if anything happened to, you're there, it'll be, okay, he's a mercenary, he didn't even have to be out there, he's just after money. But people don't realize you still, you still got to look after your families, and that was like what people were doing. But the majority guys, let's face it, they go out,

and we call it the circuit, they go on, and start jumping on the PSD teams and getting on these, like, military-type contracts and looking, doing PSD. And as you know, when it starts, when at the beginning, there's big money in that and let's face it

you've still got to look after your family and everything so and plus I was just working with all D Squadron guys not only SS guys but they were all XD squadron so I was working with the four guys and we all knew him and all mates and we just rotate so for 10 months a year I was in Baghdad

looking after the news but I got on really well with obviously all the news crew and then you did actually saw you had time to adjust and see the different side what the Iraqis were doing because I worked with Iraqis all the time as well. And you realized that then, as it went on,

the devastation, what we caused, and how they really wanted us there, but then later on, they were, over the years, because I had four years there, they were saying, at least with Saddam, we knew he was a terrible dictator

and they hated him, and some of them had a family kill, but they said, they prefer him back there now, instead of, at least they could get the kids to school, they could go to a market without getting blown up and so on.

And it was really, I found that quite difficult periods as well because you were just working with a small man, four man group, but also all the American news teams used to rotate through. You got to know them really well. And unfortunately, we lost good friends out there. We dropped them off on an embed with the American military, and they went on an embed, and there was a big car bomb there. I had two good friends killed outright, and then one of the main correspondents, she was badly injured.

And then we had a few racky friends who you got to know over the years They bring your treats when they had a baby from their family But most of the time they spent in the hotel with you Because obviously it was a danger for them To be back home And Wendy did go back home Nobody knew who they were working with

But sometimes the word got out They got followed So we had a couple of them over the years Got kidnapped And they've killed, tortured and killed And you knew these people So it was like God almighty

here, that was, that was quite intense. But then after that, I finished that after about four years and I'm like, right, because we had a four year plan in my wife, I said, now I'm going to go to just go on a normal circuit and sort of just do normal celebrity and bits of their ship security.

So I did that just for a few months, but then I got a great job with working with the special forces, training special forces out in the United Arab Emirates. So I was working out there with like mind people guys, lots of SF and all the

American Special Forces guys and yeah we're just training them so that was a really great transition so I did that for what something like 11 years so by the time and then I finished that and once I finish that

I then started doing stuff like a bit of bodyguarding out over there looking after billionaires I even looked after JC and Beyonce when they did the big comeback concert and Dubai. That was brilliant, you know, just for it, because I obviously knew Dubai. So I was like, they had their own team come over, obviously. But he was, you know, a couple of doors away from him.

He was really all around them. So that was great. And then I went to Turkey again with the news crews, just as the earthquake happened, like this time, that, no, a year February gone. And we was actually there when one of the, the second earthquake happened. That was an eye-opener as well, and you saw all the humanitarian problems,

what was going on. And then since then, since I've been back UK, I've been doing a lot of charity work for veterans, especially homeless veterans, because there's that many homeless now in my own city and around the UK. So I've been doing charity work, but also a lot of public,

and now I'm starting to do public speaking. And I've also went to Ukraine as well on the humanitarian aid, charity events as well because I'm a big believer that we should be back in Ukraine because they're fighting on how they off. So, you know, I'm keeping this out busy now. I'm going to start doing a lot of public events and talks because what we don't realize and you keep shy about is, yeah, it's 40 years of either been in the military or special forces or, you know, you've had all that. But with that comes an awful lot of experience and not just military experience. We've

got life experience, aren't we? We've got an awful lot of life experience. And we, ourselves and emergency workers, we've gone through quite a lot more

than a lot of people. And so I think if we can show people how to be a lot more resilient, because let's face it, we've all gone from social issues, we've all gone through emotional issues, financial issues, psychological issues, physical

all issues and the idea is you just, it's like a military assault course, you're going to it's a problem when everything's going all right, bang, something else will happen and it just be resilient so I do believe with people with our sort of background can pass this

on, put on our knowledge and actually help, not only the other veterans or other civilians going through all this, especially now in UK there's a cost of living crisis and there's a lot of the better fighting.

It seems to be going backwards to me. It's like going back to the 1980s. It's as if the government's in fighting. They don't want people look up where the problem is. They just want people fight against each other and they're causing all the problems. And so I just want to do

a bit for, play my part and if I can help, I will help. But also I'm also just going to be writing a book as well. Because every subject I've touched on there's not, this is just quickly going through it. Yeah.

But there's a massive, there's a massive part of that. I could just talk about one, two, a duty in Northern Ireland, the first one. I could talk about that for about, you know, four or five hours and that,

you just, just to tell you how confusing that was and so on. Because even, I know what I did, and I'm speaking to other Americans, they see something like Northern Ireland definitely than what we see it as a British soldier,

you're over there, and it's part of Great Britain it's part of your Northern Ireland is, it's part of the UK and, you know, I know I, whatever the politics are and everything that's that, but you were there to protect all sides

Catholic and Protestant, you're there to protect people but I remember going there in the early 80s I remember the Catholics at the time they do, you can't see a Catholic area, it was more run down, they did seem to have the worst end of the stick, so to speak. And then it was just

human nature. You got on more with the Protestant side because they all liked their military. Whereas mainly the Catholic side didn't like the military. Not all of them, but obviously it's more percentage and that. And I remember at the time

they were saying to me, why are you here, soldier boy? And they say that to everyone, but they stopped me a few times in particular and especially because of being black, they're saying why are you here? Because at the time in the UK. There's a lot of riots going on. They don't even want you. You were the suppressed in the UK. People don't want you in that

country. And he goes, right, and this is the Catholic saying to me, and we're the same, we're the suppressed. We just want fair rights and so on. And so it got you thinking, you're like, God, I'm just trying to do a job. And, you know, you're a 19 year old and you just want to look after everyone. So that

was such a confusing place. And then even going back, the second time and fair time. Even though you've got command responsibility, it's still very, very confusing. I think it's confused everybody. Yeah. Even still

still, so all that personal part. I'm curious about your take on the whole resiliency issue because it's obvious that the military and the special operations courses that they test you for resiliency. Do you think so it's not that they necessarily

train you to be resilient, but there are selection courses find the people who already are resilient or predisposed to it. Do you feel that there are lessons, and if so, what are those lessons that where you can take that and teach people how to be resilient? Yeah, I do last lessons. You know, I always say you want to have somebody said, and I remember saying it, like you grow through what you go through, everything. I say there's a positive in everything. Even, I will never ever moan about, okay, yeah, I got

bullied, I didn't get this job, or something happened. Yeah, we have our little problems, but to me, like I said, getting bullied, that made me, definitely made me more resilient, because you had to do, you act to, what you do? You've got to face

up to a bully, and that made me now always say, right, for instance, it's like a storm, a sandstorm saying Dubai, you can't outrun it, you're better off, just standing and just going through it the opposite way. And as soon as you get through it, that's it. You're over and done.

If you try outrun it, you're just going to wear yourself down. Eventually, it's going to catch up. You can't outrun problems, and they're always going to be there. You've just got to face them. And let's face it, there's that many veterans have gone through all these life problems. So not only you're doing a dangerous job, and we're going through all that type of emotions, which it doesn't take you until years later, let's face it, a lot of. of times but then you just got normal life problems you know i've went through emotional problems a

bit of divorce at a young age and then having after the kid a kid involved and then and then still trying to do your job and and then so and also went through financial problems then i went from before i remember starting the military career and i remember my dad at 16 give me a few pounds so i started you jump in a military unit you've got a bed block and it you blanket as you know and there you're are you just a number but I had a couple of pound roll on 16 years later I've gone through a bit of divorce I'm a corporal yet I'm 50,000 pound in debt because of because of things what went on it wasn't my problem so not only emotional problems you're trying to sort out financial problems but it's hard it's life is hard isn't it and it's

you've got to choose the hardness you're either savings odd let's face it but getting in debt's But you have to just like That, I dug deep I nearly went the other way For instance because I remember Now I'm 32 gone through 16 years later I'm rolling in

Into a base And I was like shit I haven't got a bed block But I just got, you know I got a quilt I've got my own little room And you've got all the lads We're single and that living in the room

Or some of them I mean in the building Some of them divorced I'm like shit I am now like I was, if it's 16, but at least then

had a few quid in my pocket, whereas now, I've got 50 grand of debt, and I've got a lot of that's what's going on, back home,

and I've still got this military career to get on with, and all your mates want to do is just take you out and get your piss. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

And so, yeah, and you can get into that when you get the time, obviously, because you're way busy, but when you aren't, that's what,

I can see how people could hit the bottle, could put that gun to the head, because you know it, emotional problems, guys can get through other problems and grief and other military type issues but then suddenly you get it with emotional problems

family problems about there can with terrible things on your mind but I went the other way I find right okay I know which way this is going to go if I just let the bottle and just trying to go and be bitter and trusted I just then right bang fitness fitness fitness fitness I'm in a base

it's got a gym open 24-7 I just happened to be on the counter-terrorist team so I was based in the UK and was busy I just like just any time I had before work I'd be in the gym after work I was in a gym back at night and I was just a gym bunny and that

over the months and then I got on a a particular good job away working but it saved the morning and eventually I got out of that and as you know you can get out of that rut so financial ruts and as I said social ruts at the beginning was all you know it's part of

a life yet that's either bullying or sexism or whatever it's always somebody don't go to me there's always eighties in this world somebody might not like you because you're a football team because they're the color of the air I've always had the mentality

like my dad says you get on with people it doesn't matter I was brought up on a large white estate and the best makes for white and I've seen prejudice the other way as well you know it's not don't I think now people sort of make

big problems out of little problems we're in a culture where everybody's saying oh he's done that they're looking to blame somebody instead of just saying right I never got that job

okay it might have been because it was not good enough no it's because I was a woman because I'm overweight because of this that and the other sometimes you just got to admit it and that yeah if something's wrong shout it out stand up for yourself but I always see the best in people

and take every everything in context. For instance, I not long ago went back to this village and I had a woman talking to me and she actually called me like, by, what was it? I'm like, what's he saying? And yes, and she was really old and she's like, and I used to have a negro live by me one time and she's talking like, God, that was just because she's no woman. She lives in this village. She hasn't seen it. And to her, she's back in them days. She could have dementia or something, you know what I mean?

And it's stuff like, even I get confused. I was a scout leader in Dubai for the British scouting overseas because my son, he went to the Cubs. I remember filling this form. And now I haven't been back to the UK for a long time. And it said, right, you have to say description to yourself or whatever. And he's ticking a box. And it said, black, British, Caribbean, mixed race,

mixed ethnicity. I had about 10. I'm like, I'm just a bloke. We're on that. I'm like, what am I? And I actually said to something, I goes, no, I'm offcast. And this guy goes to me, you can't say that. This white guy, he goes, if I said that, I'd get, you know, I'd lose my job.

I goes, what do you mean? Goes, that went out about 20 years ago. I goes, well, what is it? Is it mixed race? And he goes, no, you are now in UK BAME, which is black, Asian, minority, ethnic. That's what a black person called in UK now, BAME. I'm like, what the hell is BAME? And I'm like, I'm gone now, who says this?

Who has labelled me? Who says you are now Bame? You can't be black anymore. You can't be coloured anymore. You can't be offcast anymore. You are now Bame. Who comes out with these words? And if I didn't know this, then other people don't know.

You just don't know what to say in that anymore. And it's not moaning. It's just like, I have to have a giggle about you. Because to me, as I said, there's a positive in everything. I get up in the morning, and my wife says I'm like a puppy. Because as soon as it's light, I'm up, and I want to get out. I don't care if it's raining or whatever. I like to get out and do some type of fitness that I just do.

And to me, it's positive. I'm up. I'm awake. I want to do something. We're humans. We're meant to be moving. And that's always been my attitude. So we have got an awful lot of resilience to pass on to people,

especially in the civilian population now. I know everybody says the generations are getting weaker and easier, but they are getting weaker and easier. And it's just like sometimes you want you just to get grip people and say, right, just common sense. Come on, let's call it out. And just, you know, people get it on. We all know what's wrong, what's right.

But get people the benefit of the day. out. Not every time they're trying to cause problems for you. And I think a lot of the times it comes from above. They just want to create problems. I think there's not so much in the UK a race problem. I think it's a class problem.

That's the biggest problem. People coming up there growing up on a class. Because as I said I grew up in a white working class. I was in the state, not just as bad as if you were in the black councilist area where there's a lot of black people. They're still the same. They all getting for these same problems. They all skent. They all haven't got much money.

They all used to have to jump in the same bathtub and use the same water, you know? And it's just that. People get on with people and life, there's always going to be problems in life. But you just got to get over it, aren't you? Yeah. And like you said. And to me, looking back, I got back in touch with my, because I lost touch with my old unit, when I was first in the military. But then

I've recently got back in touch with a lot of people, moving back to UK. And I remember seeing a platoon photograph and somebody's telling me and then looking at the guys and like, wow, he committed suicide, he committed suicide, he committed suicide.

He is now not lost of plot, I'd say lots of plot, but he's always in and out. It means his sectioned. He's really had serious mental problems and I've got a few of them. And I look at this platoon

and he's that many of them and a couple of guys have gone in prison. I'm like, That's not, if you get 30 guys from just a normal area society of that class, say, in a different job or different in that factory, and you all got together years later, it wouldn't be like that in the military. But if you look at it in the military, it's sort of mirrored in every unit. That's what it's like in the British military anyway. There's that many veterans suffering, especially. the suicide rates

and I know it's the same in in America or even worse in America I think it'd be worse in America because let's face it, you've got weapons so easily at hand and there's been times here you know when you can see people have actually said

they've really had bad times and if they just wanted they felt like topping themselves but it's a bit more difficult just to walk out and walk in front of a train or out of yourself then if you've got a pistol there

and you've really depressed and bang so there's a really grim sort of statistic that I've been told is you know American soldiers when they sadly take their own lives in the United States it's usually a firearm

you're right but then when you see when they're deployed overseas to places like Japan they're in Okinawa suddenly it turns to hangings and yeah it's it's sad and I think

we could do a much better job with it. Yeah. And especially our, you know, our governments, but I do know for a fact, your veterans, you are looked after a lot better than the British military veterans, your VA, your medical coverage. Because like I said, for the last 11 years,

I was working with, it was basically an American military consultancy firm. So I was working for a military, private, and it was called Shamal Solutions, and it's military consultants. So I was employed by American firm, but it was like ex-Briti special forces as well as American special forces from all to your different special forces groups, and then some other guys,

and depending on what job you were doing. And speaking with you guys and about the different pensions and about the veterans and about how you get looked after and other armies, let's face it, it's it's quite disgusted and what gets me though is the British public they it's that they look after the British vets more than anybody else that it's the charities because the British public love love the military yeah and it's as if the government say well we know that their own people they they will they will provide charities for them it's like

I just did recently I sleep out for the homeless for veterans and stuff like that and you know you're raising money just local communities are for their own not just veterans but this isn't modern society it shouldn't be going on yeah yeah yeah the government should step in and fill that role

rather than just relying on charities to do it but no it is good to hear though that the British public and is so supportive I remember walking around London and like going into bookshops and it's like America in the sense like there's be like a whole display

of books of like how awesome the British were in World War II. It's like it's clear that there's that affinity is there kind of the same way it is in the United States but the only thing one thing what really gets me though is what I find about in the States is the flag

you love you that's you that's your country that's your culture it's flown everywhere in the States and in the UK people oh God They seem to get annoyed. I've got my flag.

But I've got a flag post outside my house, a pole with the union flag fly. And I think everybody's sure that. It's just that over the years, you had years ago, you know, small right-wing units who used to have the Union Jack and try and kidnap that Union Jack

and say it's like fascism. And I was a young soldier there. I'm like, no, no. You know, this was back in the day, did have like National Front marches and everything. I'd see these guys and all that and just a bunch of thugs basically

and then carrying that union jack. But that didn't stop me wearing a pride. That's my union jack. And then you've got like the far left people saying oh the union jack that represents slavery and the empire and what happened to 150 years ago.

Like come off it. How stupid. You know, it's in the wording empire. You don't get an empire by just saying Excuse me, can I take over that? You know what I mean? That's how it was. Get over it.

But it's our country. We should be proud of our country. And most of the population are, and it's just that, I don't know, a few politicians, they just want to not please everyone. They seem to want to please the minority. You know, I don't know, some sit minority.

You say we shouldn't be having the, we shouldn't be celebrating our culture or celebrating being, being who we are, having an empire. Yeah, we had an empire. So what? There's some talk about

taking out the British Empire Medal. How pathetic just because it has empire in? I don't know. It's as if people are looking for problems. Yeah, yeah. And if they've got no problems, they've got no problems. There's no problems happening now.

Why are you back 200 years look for problems? If you went back. Yeah, we got enough. We got enough today. Yeah. Yeah, there's no problems going to go out. So, you know, I have a laugh about it and just enjoy life and have a positive about everything and just see the best than everyone. You know, you mate, you mate no matter what.

There was one subject that I kind of missed as we were talking, Melvin, that I wanted to go back and hit up with you, which is the hunt for the Piffwicks in the Balkans, which is, you know, a pretty righteous mission that you guys did going after war criminals. could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, well, most of my time has actually been in the units in the special forces. It's either after you've dealt with, it's either terrorist and insurgents, enemy combatants or Piffwicks, and that's persons indented for war crimes. And these people, God, the atrocities they did in Bosnia,

you know, this is not just, the Bosnian Serbs, the Muslims, the Croats. They all did it, but obviously the siebs were the bigger party. And it just shows you where neighbours can be getting on for generations, then suddenly, you know, something happens, and then there's that divide what starts again and to build up from the past, and then something happens to that person, and they have to take retaliation.

And before you know, it's chopping people's heads off and there's mass murder going on. and it was terrible and yeah so persons indented for war crimes we actually we took out a lot of them and captured a lot of them and we had specific missions and yeah that was yeah really really interesting way but usually on them type of jobs you knew well in advance your target so it wasn't you know you had a lot of planning time for it and then away you go and I remember being on the job where literally you're just waiting for you go down and then I was shopping in a supermarket

then you get the call then you're in the camp and then flashed a bang you've gone away 48 hours you're back and I'm watching soccer on TV and yet you've been involved and really a full lot you know a really intense mission and that so that was that was the difference you would just be banging in and out in and out. Are there any of those captures that kind of like really stand out in your mind? Yeah, there's a few of them, tell you to true. You know? Yeah.

There's. And sometimes you have to, I don't know, obviously I've got, I can't say names and all that because it's endangering, it's endangering myself than that. Sure. There's been times when literally I've been in a task where I've had to use my weapon. in like a modern day club because you've done everything in your power

to apprehend somebody you know and that's really close and personal yeah yeah but yeah but they

as I said they got there just deserves the the uh pifurics and it's going to happen again isn't it

there's that many pitfwicks going on around the world now yeah yeah it's basic God. Yeah.

And then there was many other different missions. But like I said, it's just like before you know it, I'm ever joining in 94 and then beginning in 95, who was on a counter-terrorist team. And then we just get told, okay, this weekend, because you're always working the weekends because that's when the police get there overtime. And you go down and you practice on all the embassies,

you practice in the main areas where you think is going to get taken on. You go to the main airport, you practice on the main airport, so you know when, if there's a big terrorist incident, you know where to go and, you know, you have to practice on different planes, trains and everything. That's, that's common knowledge. And just in case there's a major incident in the UK. So this weekend, before we was having off next minute, we was told, no, you're not, there's no, this weekend. We thought it was one of the only weekends we weren't going to be working. and the reason was because it was Princess Diana and Ari and William. So it was one of their birthdays that they'd just come down to the Herrifid

and then you take them all out and show them all their stuff and that. And they were regular visitors, the Royals, but it was amazing because it was like, oh, okay, next minute you're chatting to Princess Diane and teaching the kids stuff. And you're doing live, showing them live, CQB and stuff like that. You just don't get that. No more on me on the weekend with a day's, no, with two days notice. You shared that picture with me, didn't you? Yeah, that was the one in 1995.

Yeah, so. Did Princess Diana do any of the stuff in the shoot house where you had to go in and rescue her? No, they were all just watching and it's really, it's really funny because the watchers all go in and, you know, it's live rounds. So you've got live ammunition there and there's no safety on. you've got your safety off because obviously the ear and they're just showing you and they're when they got all targets up and obviously these rubber walls so you go in there and you're fire and so on and you do it nice and fast and then then what happened with us then they turned all the lights off and they're explaining to change the targetry around and you're explaining to the princess

and everything there and also we can do this every night and as we're talking we all go in this time with our night vision goggles and everything on so you got your lasers and I remember going in there I've got live ammunition. And 20 meters in front of us is the princess and the kids. And you're walking towards them. And then I turned to my target. And they say, SCS stands for, and the officer was talking. And so obviously they come to you.

They're like, you know, they don't know. And they were just saying, you imagine now we kill all the lights. And they're talking. And the officer said, SCS stands for speed, aggression, and surprise. And on surprise, it's bang, double tap, you know, with silences. And then the lights come on. and there you are and it's like ooh shock effect but

to me it was like going through I've got my laser and I'm like wow no safety catch on and there's the princess and the two princes I always imagine if I tripped over

that wouldn't have gone down well would it no another another question I'd love to ask you you know you mentioned a little bit earlier on

like the question of or the the subject of race in the s as i'd love to hear like were there any situations where being a black dude was like advantageous to you as a s as a ass operator where your ability to blend in or relate to people no what it what it was there's very very few uh rich born like people in the yes very very very few yeah there's a few few guys like because from uh the fathers say it might have been for g and in and it's come down the family lines and he's found himself in and sometimes you get the ex-New Zealand SCS sometimes they come on our course and get in and they like a Mori type so you do have a few a few different shades in there however once I got to the ICS there was never any racism whatsoever

and never seen any faculty to anything as I said it was just going on that course and that was just one one guy giving us a comment you know little racist guy you get that everywhere and, you know, that's never going to change. And I could ride ginger air and he could have been seen, right, there's ginger or whatever. You know what I mean? It's just life. I mean, I was curious if it ever, like, played in your favor. Like, they said that you wouldn't be able to blend in Northern Ireland, of course, but other parts of the world, you can't.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jack, there's been times like that. We've worked out, we've worked in their foreign countries, you know, in Africa and place like that where, even though they know you're on Africa. But yeah, you definitely do. You work with other people from there. And, yeah, it can go in your favor because they see you as not one of them, but you're more looking like one of them, you know what I mean? Right, yeah.

And so on. So, yeah, definitely can go in your favor as well. So, yeah. But as you know, part of our job is also training all different special forces. I've trained many, many of them. So you get in with different, cultures and as you it's art and minds that's what really helps and that's that's great how the special forces are experts and that because as you know if you can win somebody's arts and

minds you've got such a bonus you've got an ace you've got an ace and your and your pack of cards aren't you you you know they can give you information and tell you and then it's again you've got the responsibility of making that mistake and killing the wrong person, not by mistake, or somebody in that village and that's it, you've turned everybody against or it can go to strategic levels if you drop that bomb in their wrong place. So, yeah, there's an awful responsibility. Do we have questions for Melvin at all?

We just have, I think, one, let me check. I have a question. Okay. Actually, it's not even a question. It's just, M. Corbyn, thank you very much for the donation. Be sure to hit that like button. What do you got, Dee? Uh, hey Melvin.

Um, I'm Demetian, the producer. I got a question about the MP5. Did you like it? Did you hate it? Tell me about it. Yeah, the MP5 back in the day I liked. You know, with the suppressor. Yeah.

It was, you had a few stoppages, but I, I personally liked it. I thought it was all right. I know people don't like it, most people. But, yeah, I found it was okay back in the day. For room clearing or aircraft? take downs or what role do you think it fit into yeah it was the room clearing and aircraft takedowns because at the time it was like the nice small weapon and then doing all your VIP drills as well because then you know it could be slacked down nice and easy into a collapsible backpack

and into your your small bags and everything and into the car fitted while in for car drills especially their mp5 short short yeah so yeah and that's a great thing about the special forces, isn't it? You're not just, you're not just one minute you're doing, we're doing an Arctic and then you're doing a bush exercise, you're doing a jungle exercise, you're doing a desert, you're just all over the place. And then you're on the counterterrorist team, so you're doing civilian side stuff. And then suddenly you get taken away, not only that I've been a member coming from a jungle exercise, and then literally a day later, you're in suited and booted and civilian clothes looking after really diplomats and a really

the I risk area. You know, again, armed and you're in civvy, so you do all the VIP type of courses and drills and that. So it's such a, we used to say with like Jack of All trades, masters and non, you're just constantly on the go. Right, yeah.

That's brilliant, brilliant. One other one from MC Corp, M Corbyn, thanks again. Do you have a favorite challenge coin? Pardon? Do you have a favorite challenge coin? Coin. Coin.

Are coins a thing that you guys do in the UK? Oh, do you mean like these type of? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. My favorite coin is, obviously, these are one for each squadron. That was my squadron, so you'd have the SES badge on at the bar. Yeah. And then you've got that's D squadron.

And that represents D squadron. And then you've got, say this is, B squadron This is an easy one That's A squadron And then this is G Squadron Because it was guards squadron

And on the back You've got these coins But I've got lots of coins Because I know This was a big It's really big In the American military In Teeter

And I remember over the years Yeah Getting given coins We never did In the UK We should do But yeah But I always

What is the Could you explain If you know The symbolism of the torch on the D Squadron coin? Well, it's not a torch. It's actually this. It's actually a dagger.

And it's from the Malayan conflict. Ah, okay. Yeah, and a famous conflict in the old man. A small group of SES that they do whiffs are like against

lots and lots of rebels. And this really was all secret. And it was D-Squodran. This is the D-Squodin who was the main ones. And he's a famous guy and he was from Fiji and he

stood his ground and he just kept him firing this motor and a machine gun and unfortunately he died and we got a statue of him. So that's, yeah, that's, that's, was D-Squodden so that's why we got that. That's awesome. Yeah, thank you.

What about the tick or the the, the, the the, the, the, the the score. scorpion tick for a squadron. Yeah, so, telling the truth, I've got no idea

because that's A squadron, I don't really know. And it's the same with a claw for B squadron. Because it's really weird, because you've got A, B, D, D, G. We all do the same thing. We're all sabre fighting squadrons. And then with each squadron, you've got, like, your air troop,

your mobility troop, your boat troop, and your mounting troop. And that's just an insertion skill. You mostly work as a squadron. So you're all doing the same things. You rotate. but they're so different the squadrons are so different B squadron

throughout my time and even now I know people are still there they still say that's like the phone's, they're a bit more chilled out, they're a bit more lappable squadron. These squadron I was in, it was always class as a bit more formal and it used to be and then A squadron they're just weirdos

everybody called these strange these strange blokes and that's that and the guards because they were ex-guards they seem a bit more yeah a bit more artit-tarty but they on but they're all the same but what it is I do believe is certain individuals when they get to that squadron who were the the sergeant majors and that they they look out for their people and they

sort of mentor them and they've got to be that type same character so for b squad they've got to be more of a chilled happy-go-lucky and you find all their ex-sargeant majors we're and are and so that makes more of a chilled happy-go-lucky sort of squadron but everybody does the same job and he's So I remember with B Squadron, because like, I mean, D Squadron, they said we are more formal. And I remember one time he was on the counter terrorist team and we were firing all these rounds. I remember this officers are saying, oh great, we have fired like double the rounds that D Squadron, I mean that B Squadron did on the buildup to taking over the counterterrorist team. But I tell you what, they were just as good as shots than the North because as you know,

yeah, you fire loads and loads and repetitive. but after a bit, you get that tired, and then you start going down back. And that's what we do. We just burn ourselves out. They would do it to the right level. So, yeah, we find more shots, but that doesn't mean we're any better.

We're all the same. Yeah. It's really weird how different squadrons maintained that sort of their culture, character. Yeah, and it's been wherever. You know, I remember when I got there, people who've been in for the donkeys years we were getting out and they used to say

this has always been like this and then you look through it it says and then I know people who've still been there since I've got out and have been there, you know, a long time and on different type of jobs which you can keep, stay active now in the SES up until 65, obviously not going operational but training jobs

and they say, Mal it's just the same yeah obviously the equipment changes and that but basically the soldiers the man is just the same the selection basically is ugly ever changed, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's face it, to me, now,

it's technically, you've got to be a bit more tech-minded. You've got to, aren't you? Because you've got to keep with the time, so we all would have been. Yeah. Because it's all a lot more computers, and it's all, you know, drones and everything and so on. But, yeah.

Milven, I was just going to say that it's funny because we have, We have that same sort of thing in American Special Operations where, you know, it's the squadron or the company or whatever, has a personality. Everybody knows what the other, you know, components, personality's like. And everybody's happy to be in their, you know, unit for exactly that reason. It's like, and we're better than all the others. I never want to be over with the Alpha Box or, you know, in Aco, you know, like it's like, but then, you know, then the people on Ako is like, Fuck those other guys. Yeah.

It's amazing, it? It's that type of the ethos built into everyone, isn't it? And I know you guys are the same and that. I was just watching you then,

you were just pouring a whiskey, but I thought, I remember, where was it now? When I went on one of the first trips, that was it, when we went to the Airborne Rangers

and I was being out, and I was speaking to the American guys, and we're all chewing that tobacco. Yeah. That doesn't happen in you. UK and once one was doing it in this class and then and then later on in the night I was on Jack Daniels in Coke and then one time I picked up the wrong glass I was pissed oh oh oh no I was like what the fuck yeah he'd been doing it in the glass

but it's like God yeah Jesus but I also remember about this guy yeah this this para guy who went and this was when he was on the training unit and he had actually two years working with American and the actually went to the first Gulf War with him and he came back

after two years and he took up that the back again he's the only British person I've ever seen doing it but he was addicted to in the mouth and all that

it's really amazing how you know that's never taken off in the British I mean honestly I think the American military like it runs on that stuff so it's

good that it hasn't melvin tell us uh what are you up to today where are you at now what are you working on oh now i'm just there what i've got on now i tell you what i've got i'm working on i'm working on i'm going down stoke because stoke city that's my local football team okay yeah and i'm doing i'm doing quite a lot with their the community there and i'm doing challenges what raises money they own this and people there so I'll be working on events next week meeting up with Stoke the Stoke City and we're just

working on something in the future I can't say exactly what it is now because he's going to come off as a surprise so I'll be working on that and also next week in the week I'm also going to meet a friend who he's actually the British middleweight champion and he's going to be fighting a world championship so I'm going to be meeting up with him

And he does an awful lot for the city of Stokon-Trent as well. This is our local city. And you boxed in the army too, right? Yeah, I used to box then. So that's why I really love the boxing. I don't do it anymore. I don't even do the train anymore because I've got old injuries. I still keep fit and still train all the time.

But in the military, I did it for about five years. Yeah, to five solid. And literally, we were doing it for nine months a year. and it was that was it was living the life of the boxes if you was boxing you all used to stay in the same group you had the best food just lived in track suits and then after nine months you'd just like have to fire a gun do the sitting army test and that was it but after that you're back in in the in the in the in tracksuits and then boxing but to me there was nothing better because you'd

listen you'd have all your unit so you've got a thousand an armid infantry unit you'd have a thousand blokes know your name then you've got a thousand blokes to know your name then you've got a thousand bloke's know their name and you'd be battling each other and it's just two warriors and to me anybody who gets in the ring and fights got to take my hat off to him and back in the day it was we used to every unit you should have its own band so we used to go and used to get drummed into your tune and that and everybody knows you and then you'd be you'd be fighting a Scottish unit and they come into the bad pipes and everybody knows them or you'd be fighting another unit and they've just got all these bugles and it's really god I get the I get the airs on the on the arms now because to me

that's as close to to real combat as you can because you got them I remember used to walk up the steps getting ready to going to ring and to me it's always reminded me of watching one of these old films where somebody goes gets hung and you should have the drums beat in the old days and they beat and they walk up up the steps to the gallows and then you get wrong I used to think in my mind this is just like going to get hung because I had it in my mind I just didn't ever want, you know, just get knocked down and show myself up the first round or anything like. I just couldn't wait for that start and just get a few punches,

and then you're right, I'm in there now. I'm in the game, and then that's it. You can start. But everything, in life, everything teaches your lesson. And even boxing, I remember when I first started, I thought I was invincible because it was very, very fit, and I was, like, winning everyone. And then I remember fighting this guy in another company,

this was just into company. and he was he wasn't very good or anything and anybody thought oh yeah I'm going to piss you and I remember him whacking and he just took a big shot and he caught me and in my mind I was like nah he can't and my mind the murder gone and then I went back to McCona

and the refs give me your account and I'm like you're saying you're all right I can't even remember going back to McCorm yeah yeah yeah and I went back out there and he got me again I didn't go down and it got stopped now anybody else because of that as a negative and you know I felt really embarrassed.

And you could have take that as like, well, that's me I'm packing and boxing. But what I did, I thought, no, shit, I learned from that. And I just like, right, I'm going to boxing this time. It learned me to box wisely.

And then I remember many a time I got caught with these big shots. And before, instead of trying to box through it, which I did that first time, because you think you're invincible, but really, you're going really slow and next time, bang, I got with a shot.

And you think, right, that was an odd shot. Then you know, to cover up. you know to jab off, you know to spit your gum shield out because then they got stopped, give you a few seconds, get that gum seal clean because they have to in amateurs, put it in, and then you buy yourself time or you learn thrilled on, and then until you're right, me, it's back together now, I can go. So I learnt from having that shock, that first time

when you see the lightning, you feel sick, you feel dizzy. Yeah. Yeah, and then now, and that's also happened to me in the civilian aspect where I had a, a fight and civilian street drunken fire and all the rest of it

and I remember somebody had to me and I'm like wow is it to me that hard I'm getting all the I can feel these shocks

that's me I'm going to go out now and I remember right I've got to think what have I got to do and then my dad used to say in the worst case

when I was getting bullied doesn't matter how big that person is biting sink your teeth into him and I remember doing that when there's a little kid and this bully

and boy, did he stop bullying me then and he could beat me up he could carry on beating me up he knew he'd win but he knew he'd have a bite and he just wasn't worth it and I remember

they're getting in this civilian fight it was actually in Australia I heard that's just another story and there basically I was going through a bit of divorce so I wasn't, you know I wasn't ready for

other argument of anyone but it was actually sheep shearers and it was a sheep shirers and it was a sheep She was wedding going on and I was having a drink in this hotel. And they had all food on. I didn't know this food was part of their buffet. So I stopped eating these little sausages and pineapple and cheese on a stick and stuff like that

because I thought it was a freebie. And then some of this girl come over. She says, do you know, that's not you shall be having that? I said, I didn't know. But then she starts gobbing off at me. Now I'm just going for a bit of divorce. So I wasn't happy with me anyway. So I'd give her a mouthful, told her what I think of her.

And next minute, this guy come across and he was, He was. It was actually sheep shearers. And the sheep shearers, like, stagged the wall, wedding or something. And they were like, Popeye,

their arms were just like, the forearms are massive because they're picking up the sheep. Yeah. And this guy come up to me, I thought, and I was with another guy, I thought,

God Almighty, he is going to come, he could tell, he was just going to come across and start. So as he's coming close to me, but it's not good. It's not right.

I thought, right, got, get the first punch in the tried, bang, and he just starts fighting. And look, it got broke up. But in Australia,

they always have a bar, so we left this hotel bar, but they always seem to have the bars in the basement. And in the basement, they all go gambling. So when we left, I thought, oh, the basement bar is on.

Let's go down there. And that's open until 2 in the morning. So, I mean, these lads, we went down there, and then everybody leaves at 2 o'clock in the morning. So we left. And then at the same time,

these guys left. So by the time, they'd had a good drink. And there was a lot of them. And they were like, there's that guy. I'm going to do him. Anyway, I thought, right, I can't be bothered.

And I just said, come on, then. I'm going to get kicking out. At least I try and fight. Yeah. He stopped sitting me, and I saw that lightning again. I covered up, like, in the boxing, I thought, right, I can't box out of this. There's no referee to stop it. I'm just waiting for getting to get passed out in a minute.

I thought, I've got to do something. And I went back to me when as a kid, right, bite him. And he was that big. I remember he had a white shirt on. and I bit his tit I was in his chest and I was like a dog I've tried

I remember thinking I'm trying to put my teeth together and I was thinking fucking hell ease it easy he's a muscle muscle aback because I was trying to connect him

and all I remember him saying as ah the N word he said that's biting me and all these mates moved away because the blood on his shit they must have been stabbed

or something everybody's just in shock and then I just start walking and then when they all come together they were just going to pile on me and out me and no kidding you, the guy who was with he got the bouncer and a bouncer

pulled up in the car and he dragged me in the end and he goes get in the fucking car these Australians got me in the car and got me away God almighty anyway I don't know where I come that story from but it's all come

that all came from the boxing yeah it teaches you a lesson so in life there's always lessons so you know you'll learn from them don't you so that helped me out a couple of times What's up D? I have one more question from Melvin, Melvin.

Were you ever lucky enough to get your hands on those Rolex explorers they gave SAS members? Yeah, I've got Rolex, yeah. Rolex, I've got a Breitlin, and I've got Breitlin, a Rolex, and a D-Squodin from a smaller company. Yeah, I've got a D-Squodden one, a Breitlin and a Rolex. I could get me a book. I'd have to nip downstairs and get them if you want me to. Yeah, like, so those S-A-S explorers that they made for Rolex are like super, like highly sought after. They go for like $40,000, $50,000.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, because I got a couple of kids, so I thought, right, I'll have one. And at the time, you're like, wow, this has cost me a thousand, that's a lot of money, isn't it, when you're in? Yeah. But then they're unique. They've just got your zap number on, and they've just got, you know, personal. of lies, then yeah, they're going for an awful lot of money. Do you want me go get

one? Have you got time? I can just run downstairs or no. Sure? We'll do this yet, yeah. Absolutely. Okay, I'll just nip down this minute. Okay. And guys out there, if you are so inclined, please check out our Patreon. There is a link down in

the description. You can subscribe for $5 a month, and that gets you ad-free episodes. All the Team House episodes, you get ad-free. And we do some bonus episodes on there, too. And we really appreciate all you guys going there and supporting the channel. You also get the Eyes On episodes for free too, free.

Oh, right. Yeah, I should mention that. You know, our sister podcast, Eyes On with Andy Milburn and Jason Lyons. You'll get all those episodes ad-free as well. I also want to give a shout out to Casa Carabao Cigars. My buddy over there makes some awesome sticks. I hope you guys will go check it out, casacarebeo.com. Hey Mayo, Melvin. Hi. Yeah, so I've got this, there's this one, this is the Brightling. I don't know if you...

Push that mic up a little bit. There you go. Sorry, can you mean? Yeah, all good. Okay, this is the Brightlin and you can see the SS badge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there. It's got your number and everything back. That's cool. Yeah, so that's the Breitling. that's awesome and then uh this is the rolex and then you got all there on the back can you yep that's a beautiful beautiful watch yeah yeah he's got your zap number and everything i tell you what the first time i had this i wore this watch out i wore it i had a drink when i got back i took it off and then i dropped it and i smashed the glass so that to get sent to rolex and

fucking how it cost us a lot of money and then this is a D squadron one personally for D squadron and on the back you could see that the dagger you know they're not the dagger there oh the squadron squadron in yeah yeah yeah yeah can you see the badge there it's in black and you can't really see it but I know what you're talking about because yeah so they got that badge on because it's just this is just for D squadron that's cool so yeah so but these as I say I I'll never sell them. I know blokes have come, a few blokes have had gone through bad times and then they've sold

them and they've, you know, I know they've gone up in price and they collect as items, but, yeah. I must probably get me out burgled now by showing them and they've got scouts. They've got scouts of the year. And then you also have your own YouTube channel that's launching. Do you want to tell folks a little bit about that? Yeah, I'm opening a YouTube channel. going started next week, and we're going to start doing lots of stuff there

and doing stuff on resilience and just getting, sort of talking about life and having talked, and also doing lots of fitness challenges there. And just, because I do believe, like, it's mentality, it's consistency. And I'm awful work or play hard. I like go out. I like have a bit. I always have done. I think most of the people are the same.

But I still enjoy my fit. I still make sure I keep myself fit as well. so you know and that's whether it's in the gym whether it's running whatever type of exercise tabbing especially over the hills and like even the other day

I just went through my wife as doing the Manchester Marathon so she was practicing and she did a 30 kilometre run for part of the training build up for the Manchester Marathon in a couple of weeks time and so she asked me go on a training run

with her, supposed to have been running with somebody else and I had a drink the night before and the last minute they couldn't do it so she says will you come yeah because she goes quite slow so I did that and I thought to myself I've done 30 cometers

I feel alright and it's such a lovely day so then I ended up just jogging a bit more and I got to 40 the most of jog recently was 50 I thought oh I'll go for the 50 and I got to the 50

now what I was intending do from 60 in December in my mind I just thought of it one morning I thought right I want to do six at 60 and 6 so that's 60 kilometers it's 60 years old in six hours I said I won't do that on my birthday but the other day I did it's about in fact last week last Thursday and I got to 50

kilometers and I thought oh I could get in the six hours of here and so then I thought right sorry I might as well do the 60 so that just came out the blue I was going to do it in in December and then I just did it the other day day so I did six kilometers which is like 38 miles. Wow awesome yes so that's a lot and and even on these knees and everything yeah so you can you can still get trained so I just enjoy just doing stuff and just different challenges and stuff like that yeah and stuff like that yeah and we'll have a link down the description to his YouTube channel um melvin I mean this has been a really fun conversation man is anything that I failed to ask or anything that you wanted to put

out there that we haven't covered? No, you just put my Instagram and then the YouTube, because I'm going to do a lot more things, and I've also got a friend. He's a civic friend from Stoke as younger, and he's really good on the YouTube and these skits. So we do a bit of fun as well, you know.

As I said, sense humor is part of the military, so it's not just deadly serious and about talking about life. It's having a laugh about things and just a common, everything, what happens throughout the day, you know, the mistakes, what you do and you just got laugh at him, ain't you? Because we all mess up and there's always something what, you know, pisses you off.

And you just have to have a laugh about whatever it is, whether it's road rage or something happened. It's just, it's part of life, it's there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, I think that, you know, because when you talked about resilience, like a sense of humor and, you know, like taking the piss out of guys, like, that's all part of it.

Like, if a guy can't handle, like, guys on his team taking the piss out of him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it makes the guys on the team question, I think sometimes. Like, can we rely on this guy under pressure? If you get so, like, spun up over this little thing, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's part of it, isn't it?

And I think that's why part of the selection process, they see that, you know, you've all got to be able to give and take it on the team. If you don't want give, it don't take it. Yeah. Some people are a bit more serious than others. When you know, when you with mate, you know what, What buttons are pushing at? Don't you stop and stop by that?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. Yeah, thank you, Melvin. And who do we have on Monday? On Monday we have Jeff Mann, who is actually, I think he stood up one of the first, if not the first, NSA red teams. So one of the first, you know, teams to actually be adversarial.

testing, penetration testing and whatnot. And then next Friday, we have Jonah Mendez coming on, who's a CIA disguise officer, and she has a new book coming out. Actually, it is out now. So we'll be talking to her on Monday. So look forward to seeing all you guys then. Melvin, again, thank you for spending Friday evening with us, man.

This has been really fun. Yeah, it's been fun, Jack, Dave. Thanks for having us and thanks, thanks, Timos. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, America. We'll see all of you guys out there on Monday. Take care. And let us know when your YouTube channel's up so we can plug it.

Right, we'll do. Thanks a lot, mate. Also, Melvin, when you write your book and you come for like a book tour and you're in the States maybe, we'd love to have you in studio too. That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, great. That would be fantastic.

Yeah, yeah. You're welcome any time. Hit us up when you're coming through town. I appreciate that. I really do. Absolutely. But I wouldn't be having any. I'll be watching where I'm a majority.

drink is out of if anybody doing that spit inside of stuff you know

me yeah that's a that's a that's a that's a quick lesson you learn

in Ranger Battalion is if you open a can of coat or if you open a like a

can of soda yeah you never put it down yeah yeah you put it

down you don't drink that that was a habit I quit the day

I left the army yeah it was the day I quit dipping yeah

cold on on average how many guys say in your dip.

Two thirds? Is it like about? Yeah, two thirds, probably. Yeah, I'd say 50% to two thirds. Yeah. Like, it's one of, has it never been banned or is he ever been? In Ranger's School, they banned it, but not in the Army as a whole. So in Ranger School, what guys would do instead is they would take the coffee from their

MREs because it's ground coffee and they would pack that just so it had something in there. Yeah. It becomes like a performance drug, I think. in some ways where it's like, you know, you're up all night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so guys are just, like, hitting the nicotine to, like, keep them, like, going and focused and everything. Yeah.

It's amazing. Yeah. I remember going to the PX, though. I got, that got me on the jerk meat. I'd never had that before. This was years ago in the 80s, you know, where you should have the jerk, jerk beef and that. God, that was brilliant.

Yeah. I still love it now. Yeah. Well, it's funny. Beef jerking, that's, isn't it? You know, all that sort of stuff. It's funny because you mentioned, like, the, you know, like the booze and, you know, the dip and stuff like that. But it was Phil Kampian who was telling us how he, he brewed a spot of tea on target while he's like, it's like, well, that's something in America.

Like that to us is so, you know, ultimately British that while he's in a hide or, you know, on a support position, he's brewing tea. Oh, yeah, the brews. That's always tea all the time brew. that you guys is always coffee, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So. But I think the world now, it's all rappuccinos and whatever. You know what I mean? It's got bonkers in it. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's walking around. And even here in the States, even with the tea, like they church it up. You know, they've got the, like, the chai latte.

Like, you can't just get a tea or a coffee. Like, it's got to be something fancy now. You say, no, just get me a normal tea. I don't want all this. And you've got to give out all this stuff. It's just normal. Just give me tea. As it is, normal.

We say NATO, NATO standard. Yeah, NATO Standard T. All right. All right, Melvin, we'll see you next time. Let us know when that book's coming out, and we'll be happy to have you on here again. And we'll see all you guys out there next time.