The Team House - 27 Years in SEAL Team 6 (DEVGRU) | Rick Kaiser | Ep. 272

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Born and raised in Milwaukee Wisconsin, Rick joined the U.S. Navy at age 17. He attended Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL (BUD/S) training Class 109 in Coronado, CA. Rick was assigned to SEAL Team TWO in Little Creek, VA in 1980. He served at SEAL Team TWO from 1980 until 1985, specializing in winter warfare, combat diving, and sniping until he was selected for duty at SEAL Team SIX in 1985.In 1993, Rick received the Silver Star Medal for Valor during the Battle of Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down). He served at ST-6 from 1985 through October of 2012. During his time at ST-6, Rick acted as sniper, explosives expert, lead training Chief, sniper team leader, and Deputy Operations Officer.Rick continues to serve his country and fellow SEALs by helping to educate others about this unique special operations force and further the Frogman heritage as the Chief Executive Officer of the National Navy UDT-SEAL Museum. Rick is married to Barbara Kaiser and has two children, Emily and Eric. Rick and Barbara currently reside in Vero Beach,Florida.Rick's bookhttps://www.amazon.com/Frogman-Stories-Leadership-Lessons-Teams/dp/1636243517/ref=asc_df_1636243517/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=652542016202&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4313091164452129672&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004356&hvtargid=pla-2011906936286&psc=1&mcid=a0105ad34b883649aa32e43b62d79b3eRick's Museumhttps://www.navysealmuseum.org/fort-pierce------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#sealteam6 #blackhawkdownBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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Spionage, the Team House, with your host, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, everybody. I'm Dave Park, co-host Jack Murphy, D, Behind the Wheel, our producer. Tonight, this episode 272 of The Team House, welcome our guest, Rick Kaiser, author of the book Frogman Stories. Rick, we really appreciate you being here tonight. Oh, hey, thanks very much for having me. I appreciate it.

Yeah. And real quick, before we get to it, we just want to do a quick plug for our Patreon. Yeah, guys, if you can, check out our Patreon. There's a link down in the description. And those of you who support the channel, you get all of these episodes ad-free. And we really appreciate

you guys supporting us and keeping this machine running. So, yeah, check it out. the links down the description. So, Rick, back to you. Very storied career in the SEAL teams. And what's your origin story? Like, how did you grow up

and what eventually led you to the Navy? Wow. So I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, or Oak Creek, actually, a little south of Milwaukee, a little suburb. And I was one of five kids. You know, I have two brothers and two sisters. and I don't know, I guess I really didn't have a whole lot of connection to the military.

My dad had served in the Army Reserve in the 50s. Didn't really talk about it too much. I already had this fascination with the water, and I always watched Jockusto in the Undersea World of Jokkusto, right? So I was like, I want to join the Navy and go on a submarine, you know, just like Jaku Sto. And I went into the recruiter's office. I was like the best recruiting guy you could ever have, right? So I was 16 years old because I knew I was going to graduate when I was 17.

And I walked into the recruiter's office and I said, I'm going to join, right? So it didn't have to do anything, right? I just walked in, hey, I'm going to join the Navy. Sign me up. Yes, I had this pamphlet on his desk about Navy Seals because I fully intended to join to be a submariner. You know, later in later on in life, I was spent. a lot of time on submarines and I'm so glad I used to do that number. But just, you know, I hit my head so many times on the overhead.

I can't even tell you. So anyway, I had this pamphlet about Navy SEALs and I took it home and I studied it and I said, this is really cool. You know, I can jump and I can dive and I can shoot and I can be cool guy. And I said, this is what I want to do. And I didn't have a clue what I was getting into. And that's how it all started. It's funny that you mentioned submarines because I think that as a kid, especially like watching Jack Cousteau, you think that all submarines are going to have those big bubble windows and you can see the sea floor, the wildlife.

And that's not what the submarine service is like at all, is it? No, it's not. It's not like with any sealed diving is like either. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me to go diving. And I said, no, I hate diving because it's always at night, right? So I never saw anything. It was just miserably cold. And I would hit my head on pilings as we were diving along.

And it was just like, this is no fun at all. So the undersea world turned out not being so fun. Yeah, that's funny. So tell us about like your enlistment. You know, you obviously, you go through Basic. And then did they send you to an AIT or did you go to Bud's first at that time? No, I went to a A school. I went to a Hull Tech Mission A school.

Because when I went through, you know, the Navy sees the seal training as a bonus, right? So at every bud's basic underwater demolition seal training class, they lose 70% of the guys, right? So that's 70% of high quality people that go right back to the Navy. So, I mean, that's a good deal for the Navy. So they want them to be at least trained in something before they get to the fleet. So I went to HALTECN school and learned how to a WARRTECDICN school and learned how to a weld and be a fireman on the ship and stuff like that.

So when I went to Bud's, I was fully, you know, I had to quit. I'd have been a health technician on a ship somewhere. Yeah. And so what was Buds like for a young guy from, you know, the Midwest or around there, I guess the north? But, you know, you liked the sea, but what did you think of the sea once you got there? well obviously lake michigan is a lot different than the pacific ocean right so although just as cold it wasn't it's just a different environment so when i got the buds i figured out really quickly that

what was going on and i figured and i didn't know what i was getting into in the long run but i just knew that this is something i wanted to do and i didn't want to be an embarrassment to my folks or friends and even though they had no clue what a Navy SEAL was back in those days. But I just knew I just didn't want to quit, you know. That was what I did not want to do. Yeah. So you get through BUDS and then what was next for you? Went to Buds and graduated Class 109.

So if you ever talked to a Navy SEAL, that doesn't give you their class member right away. They're not a Navy SEAL. especially if somebody says it was classified, not a Navy SEAL. Because at the museum, which I run, we have a database of every single seal that's made it through training from World War II to the present day. So it's a matter of a click on a mouse pad. I don't know what the young people use now, but anyway, to find out whether the guy's are fake or not. So anyway, I made it to SEAL Team 2. So back, when you go through Buds, they give you a wish list, right?

So where you want to go? So there was West Coast teams back then. All the odd number of teams are on the West Coast. Go figure, right? I mean, that should mean something to you guys. So all the even number teams are on the East Coast. So believe it or not, because you've got to remember. So when I graduated, Budz, I was only 18 years old.

So I chose the East Coast because back in those days, Virginia, drinking age was 18. And I did not want to be stuck in California where it was 21 for the next three years and not being able to go out and have a drink. I mean, that's basically the decision point in my life at that. Like, where can I get a drink? Makes sense. Check it out.

Yeah. And that's the fact. And I think a lot of guys did that same thing. And thank God I did because in California, and I know I'm going to hear this a lot. lot for my friends. They're really good at doing like volleyball and surfing. And then the East Coast guys were doing all of them operating. So anyway, just a little inside joke there. So I was assigned to SEAL Team 2 and under Master Chief Rudy Bosch, who was in my command master

chief at the time. And, you know, I served there for like five years in winter warfare. I went through sniper school, SEAL Team 2. I also went to Combat Swimmer School at SEAL Team 2. So I learned a lot of my basic training at SEAL Team 2, you know, waiting for the data that I would be able to operate. So what was it like for a young 18-year-old showing up fresh out of buds to a SEAL team? Well, luckily, when I showed up at SEAL Team 2, they had just taken a lot of of guys from SEAL Team 2 and put them into SEAL Team 6, right?

And at the time, I didn't even know there was the SEAL Team 6. But what that did was it allowed me to go from Bud's right to SEAL Team 2, which was unusual, you know, for a lot of, you know, Bud's recruits to go right to one of the premier teams. And so while I was that SEAL Team 2, like I said, I learned all these skills and it allowed me to, you know, basically you volunteer again to go to SEAL Team 6. And that's kind of how my progression went from Buds to 2. Then I volunteered for 6. When you were at 2, what was the time frame? What was sort of the geopolitical situation? And did it, did you guys have a lot of real world

operational missions, or did it seem like kind of a constant training cycle for you? It was a constant training cycle for us. When we did have a, a chance to have a real world mission in Granada. We trained for probably six, eight months for that mission. And then basically it was taken by SEAL Team 6 for whatever reason that I'll never understand. But at that point, I was like, well, I need to go to that team because if I want to be able to operate, I need to shift. And that's why I left SEAL Team 2 and volunteered for 6. And so what was that process like for you going to SEAL Team 6?

Well, it's just like anything else in the Navy, you put in a request. You literally fill out a form, we call it a request shit, right? So you have to fill out a request shit for just about anything. Even back in those days, you had to ask to get married, believe it or not, because they wanted to make sure you were responsible and paid all your bills and, you know, weren't marrying. They should bring that back. I support that. I agree with you, but it would never happen.

Right? So you fill out of your question, and then your command master chief, who is Rudy Bosch, again, at the time, I've been there for five years. And the commander have to approve it. And then you get basically started another six-month training program. Not so much like Buds, but it's like more to teach you how to do things of the SEAL Team Sixth way. How's that? Because their mission was a little bit different than the other SEAL team. So their tactics and techniques and procedures were a little different.

So you had to relearn it all. And then, you know, there'd be a weed out period just like there was it, buds. But it was for different reasons. Yeah. Did you find the training challenging? Did you enjoy it? Like, what was your experience like with that? Oh, the training was very challenging.

As far as the physical training, you know, most feel. are in good shape and you can handle that part of it. It was the mental challenge about the jumping and the shooting and the you know their their forte was a hostage rescue so it was like a lot of shooting in the kill house and you have to be very accurate think on your feet and be safe at the same time so it was very very very challenging and I was happy and I won't say lucky but I was very happy to make it through. Yeah. And then what was it like for you once you sort of, once you did that, you graduated Green Team

and get on your team and Team Six? What's that like? Is it being the noob, the, you know, the new guy all over again? Yeah, basically you're the new guy all the time, right? So you go through buzz and you think you're the shit. You get the SEAL Team 2 and you're a new guy, right, for years. You finally get to a point where you're like, yeah, you know, I know what I'm doing. And then I volunteer for six.

And then I'm the new guy again, right? So then you start over a net process again. So I felt that the best way to avoid that again was not to move. So I stayed there for the next 30 years. So that was my plan. And so how did that go from being on Team 2 where it was a constant training cycle? And I'm sure that you're doing a lot of training in Team 6, but do you guys start to see some real-world deployments while you're there? Yeah, absolutely.

We sure did. And that was there was just enough to keep me interested because a lot of guys got, you know, depressed or, you know, just a little bored and would move on. And I just, you know, there was just enough to keep me going. And I changed positions and jobs just enough to keep it interesting. As the real world, things would happen, right? So it was a very exciting time. You know, you're starting a family there.

The good thing about six is that you, when I was there, is that he didn't travel. He didn't move the family. How's that? We were always based in Virginia Beach, so I did a lot of traveling from Virginia Beach, like up to 200 days a year. But I never had to move the family and the kids, right?

So that was very important for me and a lot of the guys. Yeah. And then can you tell us about your first real-world deployment? I don't know how much you can talk about. right. No, the very first one, believe it or not, was the,

I don't know if you've ever heard this mission about the Achille-Lauro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was my very first mission. So we flew into Cyprus, believe it or not, and we're planning to take the, the Kili Laro, which is a cruise liner down, because some terrorists had taken over.

There was a couple of, a number of Americans on board, and it was a legitimate target. That's what we were trained to do, right? I mean, it's a maritime mission. It's a ship on the sea. I mean, it's perfect. But by the time we got approval to do that,

the ship was pulled into port in Egypt. So, and basically the mission was over, right? So we all jump on a plane and are heading back to the United States and everybody's taking their ambient to go to sleep because it's a long of flight. And, you know, a couple hours into it, all of a sudden everybody's like, wake up, wake up, you know, the plans changed, right? So it turns out the terrorist got on a plane. We're heading over the Mediterranean and U.S. fighter jets under order President Reagan forced the plane down in Siginalis, Sicily, right?

So guess who landed right next to them? Us. We basically landed at the same time a whole plane full of Navy SEALs. and set it up a perimeter around the plane so the terrorists couldn't get off. And then the next thing you know, we were surrounded by, I shouldn't say surrounded by, but a number of Italian police. Yes, I remember reading about this. Yeah.

And, you know, basically it wouldn't have been, it would have been ugly for them if they had had done anything. Because, I mean, literally we had, I don't even know how many seals we had on the ground with fully with all the armor. And anyway, it would have been bad deal for diplomatically. But the bottom line is that the terrorists came off the plane were dealt with with Italian law. We had to take it as a win and got back on the plane and left. You know, Rick, I'd like to take a moment here just to talk about that operation that you just described and hear your reflections or insights into it because what you just described is an incredibly

complicated counterterrorism mission, even more complicated than a lot of the ones we have today, where you're having to deploy to a stage in ground, prepare to execute a raid on a moving target in the sea, and a cruise ship is obviously a huge number of rooms you guys would have to clear. Then that rapidly changes into taking down an aircraft, and you guys are having to chase the aircraft into another country, and then potentially, you know, breach that aircraft and clear it. looking back on it i mean i'd be fascinated to hear you know some of your insights on on kind of how that went down and some of the lessons learned well i tell you what i would never take an ambient until it's absolutely sure that the uh that the mission was canceled right

um but i tell you what even though uh i should i should say most of the guys had done it i mean you wake up instantly you know when the adrenaline only gets uh blowing that's lesson number one. So the ship boarding and seizing part of our mission is something that we train for all the time, right? So it's not unknown to us. So it was normal for us. You know, there's helicopters, there's boats. We're going to board this ship and we're going to, you know, we're going to take over, you know, certain ports of it. We're going to rescue the hostages. This is the plan, right? That's what we do. So that wasn't the, the, the, hard part about it. Obviously the hard part was when we realized that the ship had made it to

port, right? Because then everybody's on a super high and then all of a sudden you're on a super low because it's like not happening and we're just going to go home and we wasted, you know, a week of our lives for nothing. And then all of a sudden, you're all of a sudden back on a super high when they tell you, you know, what's going on with the aircraft. And then when you get to that, you know, in Italy and Cigonella, there's an American side and there's an Italian side. So the bad guys were smart enough to pull their plane on the Italian side, even though we didn't care at that point and they surrounded the plane anyway, we weren't going to let them off. But most of a lot of the seals were also on the American side. So it was just this complicated diplomatic standoff that luckily our guys had enough maturity not to do anything, right?

Because it was literally a powder keg. And that's what happens with all these missions. So one wrong choice, and the next thing you know, you're in a gunplate, and you didn't have to be. Did you have a member of the team that spoke Italian and could go out there with a meatball hands and resolve this? whole situation. Yeah, I don't think intentionally because, you know, SEALs don't do a lot of language training because that's not a job. You know, we don't go there to talk to people, you know, talk them into things.

But, you know, everybody has a couple of Italians in there. And it's not racist. You know, South Americans, you know, speak Spanish. So just by nature, if you say we speak Italian, there's going to be a couple of hands go up. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk us through a little bit, like some of the technical considerations for actually clearing a ship? Because, you know, in today's, like, military, we carry the 556, the M4s. But on a ship, I imagine you don't want something that is that high velocity.

Is that correct or incorrect? No, I mean, back in those days, we carried H&K MP5. And a lot of times we would carry an MP5 SD, which is the silence version. And I still, to this day, you know, it's all about tactics, right? So I believe that the first shipboarding, that is the best weapon to carry. You don't, because you don't need, I don't believe you need the 556. Maybe a couple snipers you could do, use that and that, because there are some long shots on cruise liners, but interior to the ship,

that is the best, quietest weapon. So you could be clearing floor by floor, and the bad guys wouldn't even know that you're shooting. But over time, whatever, it changed. So everybody's carrying, you know, whatever their standard with firearm is at this point, H&K, 416 or whatever they're doing. But, yeah, so, yeah, it's all about attack.

It's like, what do you carry, a 45 or a 9-mill, right? It's like, whatever gun that you're good at, Right? Whatever one you practice with is the one you carry. And whenever one is the most lethal is the one that you get accurately fired, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's 22. So anyway, that's just bricks cut. And then what about like the breaching consideration?

Without going deep into TTPs because we're not talking like in a house with interior wooden doors. We're talking about heavy metal doors that if they're dogged and kind of locked, like it could take a long. You can't just put a strip of, you know, an explosive strip on and expect to get in. Right. Yeah, ships are very difficult to breach. But the bottom line, and cabin doors are usually made of wood. Okay.

So those are relatively easy, and you're absolutely right about explosives. You start using them an on-board ship. The overpressure on the other side of the door will kill us. the people inside rather that you're trying to save. So we have to be very careful. So the bottom line is if there's a door we couldn't get in, we would have to leave somebody at the door to guard it, you know. But there weren't many doors like that.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. So the standoff with the Italian police and the terrorists is all resolved. You go home. What was the next opt that you guys were spun up for? Oh, geez. It's a memory lesson right now. So back in those days,

then the next thing that would pop up is probably something like Panama, you know. And Libya. Yeah, or Libya, you know, there's, I mean, the bottom line is that, you know, I've been fortunate enough to be, and I consider myself fortunate,

I've been involved in just about everything that's going on in this world, militarily by the U.S. since, you know, 85. So everything that you can think of, I had some role in it. And whether it's been carrying a gun or in operations or on the planning side or whatever. So I'm very fortunate in that respect. Yeah. Is there, are of those operations?

Because I know a lot of your book is, well, your book is about leadership. And it's a lot of really like great. very succinct, big nets about, you know, some of them combat, some them training, some of them just sort of like administrative, sort of like the email you, you know, you responded to. And we can talk about the book in a bit, but sort of going kind of chronologically, are there any of those operations that you feel comfortable sharing with us, anything that you can tell us about, whether you were there as a, you know, a knuckle

dragger or in a training? Panama, you guys did some good frogman operations down there. Yeah, I mean, Unfortunately, I wasn't part of that, but SEAL Team 2 actually had the first ship attack by U.S. Navy Frogmen that actually sank ship or disabled it, which ended up sinking it. So that was a huge, huge op for history. So I guess obviously the one op that everybody likes to talk about is the Somalia for Black Hawk Down Battle of Modi Beach. Yeah, I was part of that. My sniper team was part of that back in 93.

So it was a, it was a hell of an experience. You know, we've been there for months. We've done a number of operations there. And I think what I tell people is that on that day, the bad guys just decided that they wanted to fight. When I say bad guys, they should say Somalis. I don't think they even understood what they were doing or why they were doing it, but they just decided that this is the day they're going to fight the Americans.

So it was a hell of a day. How did the Team 6 deployment sort of dovetail with what was Task Force Ranger, ostensibly a Ranger and Delta deployment? I feel like your guys' role probably isn't talked about often enough. And I'd be interested in like how you guys played into the overall, you know, operational tempo of how that went down. So back in those days, there was always a rivalry between us and the Army Special Forces, right? So the general at the time that was in charge of the mission was General Garrison, and he decided that in order to integrate and try to alleviate some of this rivalry,

he would include seals in this operation, right? And his idea was, you know, I guess four seals, right, from a sniper team. So that was it, right? So we had trained with these guys and we were on a cycle and, you know, a lot of my counterparts on the field side were on this like four-month cycle. And every once in a while we would go down south and train with the Army guys. And it just so happened while I was on standby. The call was made and we deployed with everybody, with Tathport Ranger as part of the group.

We really didn't have a mission because, you know, we were Navy and they didn't, you know, I don't know if they, they didn't really have a plan for us, right? We thought that, you know, we did a lot of shooting from helicopters. That was our job. We thought that's what they were, that's what we were going to do. But when we showed up in country, we really didn't have a job. And then the general called us into his cabin. I shouldn't say cabin.

It's like a little shitty trailer. And he just basically told us our next mission was to guard a CIA safe house. And so for the next two weeks, that's what we did. We guarded that house in the middle of downtown Hokadishu. Were you there when the case officer got shot? No, I was not there. Okay. I was not there at that time.

But obviously, we were there afterwards. they were very careful on how we did business. And as the only white people in downtown Moogne, you know, you stood out like a sore thumb. I mean, again, not being racist. It's just the fact. So we, you know, we did a lot of weird things like paying off a lot of different people to protect us. And for whatever else the government was paying people for. and we didn't, you know, we didn't, all I can tell you is that if we were going to get overrun,

our plan was to go to the ocean, and that's what every good seal does. They take their fins, we run as fast as we can to get into the water, and then we get the hell out of there. And that was our, that was our plan. What? But we didn't have to do it. And what happened? What was it, October 3rd, was the day of the big battle, right?

Yeah, so October 3rd and 4th. And so basically this would probably about, I would say it's a fifth or sixth raid that we had made into the city for different, you know, reasons. And this one happened to be that we were going after the Olympic Hotel. And there was a bunch of bad guys we got word that were having a meeting there. So the plan was for the Army guys to, you know, fast broke on top of the building. And our job was to hit the ground floor and wait for everybody. come out and either capture or kill them, depending on their, it was their choice. And that's basically what happened when we got there, right?

But what was different than all the other times is that when we got there and we're setting up on the target, people started shooting at us, right? A lot of people. And then, you know, so the mission went down as planned, and we ended up capturing, you know, all the guys that, you know, that weren't fighting and, you know, basically tying them up, putting them in a vehicle to get them back to the base. But unfortunately, that's when the first Black Hawk was shot down, and then the whole mission changed. And we were in and out of the city like normal in, you know, 15, 20 minutes.

We were there for hours on end, and that gave it the enemy chance to build and build and build. and we saw it, you know, later on in video, truckloads of people just, you know, getting in and coming to fight. Just to back up a little bit. What was the role of your sniper element? I mean, you weren't with the assaulters, were you? We were part of the assault team, but like I said, so the main assaulters would fast rope in, and then they would squeeze everybody down in the building. And after they were escaping, we were waiting for them, right?

Okay, gotcha. At the target building. So that's what our job was. So you guys weren't carrying your long guns on that. Say again. You guys weren't carrying your long guns on that one? Well, at the time, I had an M-14, so with a scope on it, poor choice for an urban environment.

But, you know, we weren't, you know, our job were snipers. We didn't realize we were going to be playing assault or roles at that time. Right. All our guns are trained, you know, I mean, I always like to joke with, the assaulters and tell them that the snipers are advanced operators because they go through assault training and sniper training right and they can do either or but they don't appreciate that too much but uh so after the uh first run in in the city and we made it back to the base i uh i was able to grab my a gun from my counterpart that had been shot and was out of

service and uh so i took his uh m4 and went back out the next couple times out of the city with a smaller, more manageable urban gun. What were those trips back and forth like? Because you weren't really going out to, you know, to grab pucks or to grab prisoners. Were the trips back mostly to like refit, rearm and everything? Well, the first trip back we went to, we were actually dropping off a guy that had wounded, got wounded. This is my own personal story. So one of the rangers was a fast roping, he fell off the rope, and we were taking him back to the base because he was going to die.

So on the way back, we ran into, you know, you can imagine the firefight that we ran into. We ended up losing a couple more Rangers on the way back. So once we got back to the base, we refitted, reloaded, got some new humvees because ours were all shot up. And then we went back out to join the main force to try to help them. get back to the base because they had never left the city. So sure enough, we did link up with them and we went back to the base one more time, refitted, and then we went back out again that evening to get the same of the guys that actually crashed in the helicopter and the ones that went to try to help them.

So they were still stuck. So ended up going and out of there like three or four times. it's interesting because you know we we often hear about the rangers and and the um cag guys who were part of it but i think a lot of people are unaware that that there were seals on the ground then too so the back in those days that was perfect right so nobody knew what a navy seal was or nobody knew what navy seals did um and that all unfortunately that all change with bin laden so that was it was a great thing yeah And so how long would you say in between the trips,

how long would you say the firefight lasted for you and for your team? Oh, geez. It literally lasted for two days. I mean, we would get a reprieve when we would back the base to reload, but as soon as we left the perimeter of the base, it was back on again. So it was literally that quick. and then you would fight until you went back on the base. Yeah.

And when you were leaving the base, especially kind of, I guess, in the last 24 hours, was it to engage, was it to relieve troops? Was it, did you have a specific intention when you were going back out? Yeah, our specific mission was to rescue the guys that were from the down helicopter. And then we had a team of guys that actually went on, from the original assault hotel that ran over to them and were basically surrounded, right? So our job was to go in there and get them guys out of them. That was our job.

Something else. Yeah. Yeah, you guys were out there flapping that day. It was, you know, it was, I don't even know how to explain it. It was just, like I said, it was one of those days they decided to fight. and we gave them a fight, that's for sure. Unfortunately, it cost us 18 lives on the U.S. side, but God knows how many Somalis.

I don't even know. I've heard numbers before, but it just was an unfair gunfight, but we had to do it. Yeah. And then I think in your book, didn't you mention you left and you went back two weeks later thinking that it was thinking that like things were going to happen again?

Yeah, so at the end of the battle, unfortunately, we had one of our 160th pilots, who happened to be the best pilots in the world, by the way, was actually taken captive by the Somalis. And we, you know, obviously we're not going to leave when we knew one or more of our guys were, you know, being captive. So we believe that we are. going to get the chance to go out there and rescue them, right? That was our job.

So we were preparing for that. We trained for that. We went in the city for that. And then they ended up negotiating a release. So it actually was a good day when he came back to the base. Everybody got to see him being loaded on the C-141 being flown in Germany. Yeah. And then after that,

was it Bosnia for you after that the next deployment? Yeah, that would have been the next one. Bosnia actually lasted for a couple of years, basically. But one thing I will say about Bosnia is one of the few places where American soldiers can go into a country and actually fit in. You know, they're, you know, mostly Caucasian, you know, our size, you know, it's a, you know, it's a not unusual because normally when a group of seals walks in a place, there's like, there's something unusual, right? There's like a bunch of big, healthy guys walking around. They're not, it's hard to hide who you are, right? So in Bosnia, though, it was a little bit

easier just because of the skin color and the size and stuff like that. Now, if somebody had spoke to me, I would have given it up in a second because I wouldn't understand what they were talking about. But other than that, it was a fun place to operate in, I thought. It was always nerve-wracking because you never knew what was going to happen because you never knew who was good and who is bad, you know, including the police or the military for that matter. Because you never know who they supported, right? So if they're supporting one of the guys who were going after, you know, they would have easily got a player this up, but it happened a couple times. And fortunately, I never experienced it.

Yeah. Yeah, one of the, if I remember right, one of the chapters in your book was, you know, things go right until they don't. And it was about some of your experiences in BOTUS, you know, correct? Yeah, yeah. It was, like I said, our job was to find these, we'd call them PIFWicks, which are first persons indicted for war crimes, right? So these were like really bad, bad, bad people, you know, genocide type crimes.

And, but they had their supporters, right? So it was like it's like operating in downtown Miami, right? So you're down there and people see you, but they're not, they don't trust you, you know, unless you're known to them. But, you know, but there's enough going on there that, don't stand out too much. And things could go bad quickly, right? So it was just, I don't know how else to explain that one.

It was just a military job, but it was kind of more on the secretive side of that. I mean, were you working more like an intelligence capacity trying to find and fix these guys or more on the finish actually going rounding them up? Well, as a sniper, my job was to find him and fix them, and then we would call in the backup and support the assault, right? That's what our job was to work, were, as snipers, find fix and then finish if necessary, but basically to support all the, all the assaulters. Any interesting stories about, like, whether on stakeout surveillance or, like, setting up sniper, hides and, you know, abandoned rubble? Well, the, uh, it,

obviously, the people we were chasing weren't living in like, uh, poor conditions, right? Um, so there, the houses and the, uh, apartments that, uh, the guys were at were not poor. So we, we'd have to find, like, uh, apartments close by or houses nearby to, to surveil them from, normally there weren't there weren't a whole lot of woods around and even if there was there's people that are you know hiking all over the place and there's no way you could have kept hidden in those conditions there's a few exceptions to that and and we and we utilized them when we could but uh like I said it was for the most part it was an urban type environment and we tried to find places or vehicles that we could surveil the bad guys from you know

can you kind of paint the picture for for people watching and listening it's an urban environment is there like is it mostly permissive for you guys i mean are people kind of walking around conducting their daily business you know going shopping and stuff like that and you're trying to find these guys or things a lot more tense in the general sort of environment no it's pretty it was at that time was pretty permissive you know what i mean we could have walked around without being noticed. But it's hard to, you're not going to go into a Serbian bar or, you know,

a Yugoslav bar and not be noticed that you're hanging out there all day waiting for somebody, right? So there's no way you could be in that position without being questioned. Yeah. So we would, you know, we would do things like that if we had to. But it would be quick if going to get a drink and leave. and then just to, you know, identify somebody if they're in there or not just to make sure things like that.

But other than that, we would be outside. Yeah. How did things evolve for you guys during that time? Because, you know, you're going from a place like Mogadish. You're going from, you know, counterterrorism, hostage rescue to much more of a clandestine form of operating. And obviously, you know, like special operations guys, as you rise to the level of the mission. But was there, was there a,

did you have to sell like the command back home on, on, you know, there was this need for new tactics, for new strategies, for new types of training, things like that? No, I think that's one thing I do miss about the, being active seal is that the guys and the command is very innovative, They always adapt to change wherever they believe the next battlefield is going to be at. So we were training and preparing for battles like Bosnia before they came, right? So we were, you know, we were ahead of the curve.

In most cases, we are ahead of the curve and ready to fight wherever that fight is, right? So like now, modern day, skip, you know, 20 years is, you know, China. Right? So our guys are getting ready for that that battle or North Korea or any of these other places that are going to be the next battlefield. You know, like we had in Afghanistan and Iraq for the last 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. And then after Bosnia, so how are you for, because you're still obviously in Bosnia operating, but you've been in you've been in the teams for quite a while. at this point in time, correct? Yep, sure have. And that's like I said, I don't want to be a new guy again, so I just did.

Yeah. And how is it for you as you're moving up the leadership chain? So, yeah, that's a good question because a lot of people ask me that same thing, because when they think of the seal, they think of this guy that's kicking doors down and, you know, doing all the, ball clavos. So the bottom line is the longer, it's like anything in life, right? longer you stay in, the more senior you get, the more responsibility you get, your jobs change. So the younger guys are the guys that kick the doors in, the older guys are the guys

that are on the radio call in, the airstrikes or whatever other support, and then they go in, right? So it's like, it's just a changing of what your role is within the team. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you were going presumably from being an operator to being like a team leader to a troop leader. I mean, what was that like? I mean, that's it. And that's it. And then you just as you become more senior, you learn from others and, you know, the best ways to do that, right? So it's like, you know, when you eventually make it up the team chief, you're really not getting involved in the tactical planning and that. You're just managing the manpower and making sure they have what they need to succeed. And maybe this is like an interesting time to also ask like, what? You're

is it like when you're the troop chief and you have to manage a lot of like a type personalities that are chomping at the bit what is that like as from the perspective of a leader as well as an operator and man another good question um i would say that my style was a i believe you at least had to try to lead from the front so anything that you were asking your guys to do you you you certainly try to do it Set the example. You know, obviously, it might not be as fast or whatever. But I was. I tried and I did it.

So, you know, maybe not every time, but at least they could see that I wouldn't ask them. So, like, for example, like in Bosnia, like we were just talking about. So, you know, from the safe house that we were working out of, it was myself and another guy that basically managed all the teams that would come in, pick up radios, vehicles, intel, whatever they had to do it. But they also use that as their time to get a shower or take a normal bathroom break, right? And guess we had to clean the toilets up, right? The master chief did.

So it's like it's just one of those things. It's just that was my role at the time, taking care of these guys, making sure they had to do what they had to do. And I'd clean a toilet or two. Yeah. And what was... I never tell my wife dad, though, by the way. Right.

It's like raising your hand when they ask who knows how to type. Yeah, exactly. What was your impression of in relationship with the officers as you were growing up in the teams in Team 6? So, you know, I know there's a lot of controversy there, and I'll be the first one to make jokes about officers. But I was crystal clear throughout my whole career on who was in charge, right? The officers lead the SEALs, right? Without question.

You know, if they ask for your opinion, you give it. The enlisted men are the tactical leaders. It will tell you how to tell the officer how to take down a specific house. But the officer makes the ultimate decision, and nobody questions that. So whatever they plan in the movies or whatever you hear on the, you know, on the internet, is that's the way it is. Yeah. So going back to your book, it's a great book, and I highly recommend everybody to get it because

you know, you've distilled, I'm not sure how many chapters, but each chapter is very short, like three to five pages, and not all of them are about combat. They're, you know, Vignettes, like you talk about working with the Yeagers and what you learned, you know, from that. And, you know, just a lot of really great vignettes. What kind of prompted you to write the book? I guess, you know, I'll tell you, COVID did. So like everybody else, we were shut down.

And after like a week, I was out of like the home repairs to do. And I said, I know what? My wife asked me, she said, didn't you say you're going to write a book? And I actually started writing it. So it took me, you know, it took me about a year to get all of it down. And then took me about another year to decide to actually get it printed, be honest with you. And like I said, it's a very controversial fine line for Navy SEALs to be writing books. Trust me.

I have gotten so much hassle from my own friends, even though they know that's not a book about war stories. And I was so great. And this and that is mostly about me and my fuckups. And anyway, it took me a long time to decide to actually get a prison. And, you know, that was one of the things. it honestly struck me about your book is that a lot of, I want to say, foreign military leadership books are very much sort of like, you know, rah-rah, toe the line, you know, the motivational type of leadership. And, you know, through this adversity, like, this is what I learned. And there's

a little bit of the adversity in here, but there's also for, like, very human stories about, like, mistakes that you felt you made, you know, things that you felt like you paid for, you know. And one of stories that kind of comes to mind was the story about the email that was sent to you where a friend do you know what i'm talking about where a friend yeah i sure do can you tell us that yeah another another master chief buddy of mine that was in somalia with me and uh when uh 9-11 happened he was uh on the on the cycle and he deployed and um with another with another guy and uh and he called basically emailed me and asked me what I thought about the guy, right? Because I'd been working with him for a while.

So I not knowing it was a group email, I told him the truth. I did, but luckily I didn't write anything too terribly. But he, I said, you know, just watch your back. I don't really trust him. So within like, you know, 30 seconds, I get a phone call at my desk. We call it a red phone. It's just a secure phone. And it's that guy.

And he's like, Rick, what the fuck? What do you mean by this? And I just started doing like a Michael Jackson moon dance backwards trying to talk myself out of that email statement. And because, you know, these guys are forward. They are fighting. They don't need to be worried about, you know, jerks in the back like me that are making some stupid comments. And but needless to say that when my buddy got back hold of me, I did say, I did call them, you know what for setting me up like that. I didn't know

I grew up to the group email. I mean, Jesus. But anyway, the point of the story was really think about what you're going to write or say because you can come back and bite you. It has that happened to me a couple of times. And hopefully I've learned from it every time.

I don't want to gloss over anything if there's something else before we get there. But I would like to talk about the GWAT. Yeah, absolutely. And how things in six start to, change for the unit culturally, operationally. I mean, it sounds like you were there for all of it. Yeah, so what I tell people, and I'm giving them a tour at the museum,

is what 9-11 did, you know, it was a terrible thing, right? So we lost a lot of Americans. It was a bad time for our country. But what it did for the military, it actually helped us work better together, right? So before 9-11, it was this constant rivalry between us and the army, amongst other things. We didn't have the same, you know, call signs or ways we did business, you know, from call the player, you know, from calling an airstrikes, so you name it. And what 9-11 did for us at that moment is that it forced us to be teammates and to work together. So after that, we need for the next, you know, up until the present day, they do exchanges.

There's no problem in putting, you know, seals in with the army and army in with the seals. Because we have to be able to work together because there's just so much going on. Now, unfortunately, that we can't afford to be this parochial, you know, Navy is best, Army is best kind of thing. It's not, it's the U.S. is best. And I know, you know, that's a little bit of rah-rah there, but it's, you know, It really did make a difference. Could you get a little deeper into what it was like at the unit after 9-11? Well, you know, I was like most Americans, I was in the office at the time and I watched it on the news, right?

But I guess, you know, what we realized at that moment was that, you know, we were going to war. And sure enough, within a month, the entire command had. was gone, emptied out. I mean, there was only myself and one other Master Chief left in Ops to run everything that was happening, right? So it was just a, it was just a crazy, crazy time in Atlanta for a couple of years before we started getting in health to manage that, if you can imagine. You know, because we had teams everywhere all over the world doing God's work. And, you know, literally one of my sayings is, you know, when I talk about stress, I said, is anybody dying?

And it's like, back in those days, you couldn't say no to that, right? So now, like when you're in office setting or I'm at the museum and people are all stressed out, and so it's like, is anybody dying at this moment? It's like, no. So it's, you know, so it's not that important or it's not that critical that we solve this at this minute. Right. just take a breath and move on. But back in those days, it was true.

So it's like we could never let out. Yeah. Was there, you know, obviously, you know, when you talk about like Cag and, you know, everybody comes from the army in some way, shape, or form, so they're sort of used to the idea of having the supporting arms, you know, the security and the support while being the assault. was that something that as the seals integrated more and more into the sort of land warfare ops

was that transitioned easily for them or was it a learning process no it was a big learning process because we're in the navy right so the naval special warfare or how we did business was built around boats and naval maritime worker, right? So the Army obviously being the biggest special force out there by, you know, tenfold. It was in our best interest to learn the Army way, right? So everything from terminology to a lot of the different ways they do business, we would adapt so we could, you know, interact with them. you know, in a smart basis to do our jobs.

Because we had to work together. It was better for us to learn their method than to learn a Navy method, right? Yeah. Because we operate in, like, say, boat crews, right? So, you know, the average army guy wouldn't even understand what a boat crew meant, right? Right. So we went back all the way to World War II, and there was seven guys in a rubber boat paddling on the beaches in Ormany, right?

So then it morphed into the bigger boats. Anyway, so it's just easier to go for us, from the platoons and squadrons and, you know, all the Army speak. Yeah. So during the GY, correct me if I'm wrong, you retired in 2013.

Is that right? Yep. Okay. So during the GY, were you already at a leadership position where you were sort of more in a managerial position, or were you able, were you still sort of in those assault elements moving forward?

I was a sniper team leader. Okay. So back in those days, there was a, each one of the assault squadrons had a sniper element inside it, and I was in charge of all of those. So my job was to make sure those guys were trained and equipped and ready and capable to do whatever sniper mission they needed for their assault squadron commander. Right. Yeah.

that was my job at that moment. And how was that for you? Oh, I love that, you know, I've been doing a sniper job for, you know, I don't know, 20 years at that point. And, you know, seeing all the technology that was coming down the road and everything that was changing and the, and the mission's changing and the actual role of snipers were changing drastically. It was a great time to be there.

You know, I don't know. We talk about smithing in a traditional sense now. That mission's gone. It doesn't exist anymore. Carlos half-hoc crawling around in a giveaway suit kind of thing. That's all gone. Yeah, that'll never come back because nobody's going to put a sniper in the field by themselves or even in a small team because the risk is just too great, you know, capture or killing him.

And then that's a mission failure, right? when there are such different ways now with drones and everything else that you have going on. So I'm not saying the sniper rule all together is gone, but for the most part, I think the traditional sniper role is history. So you're talking about in addition to being snipers on like the support by fire, supporting the assault, you're also saying that snipers should take over part of the sort of the new technological movement when it comes to the reconnaissance and things like that? Yeah, I think for the most part nowadays, you know,

when you talk about shooting, I think most all assaulters are snipers, right? With the guns that they have and the training they have, they are very, very good shots. When you're talking about seals, you know, all our operations are at night. And, you know, the max shot that you're going to see for any seal mission is about 200 yards.

So, I mean, what makes you special as a sniper then, right? So other than, you know, doing some reconnaissance beforehand, before the assault squadron gets hurt, I mean, I don't, you know, like I said, I don't see the role changing too much unless you're assaulting a target. Snifers will take up, you know, high ground. And, but for the most part, anybody can do it that was trained in that mission, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I think that, because we've, when we've had people on before, like, apparently, I mean, I haven't seen them. But apparently a lot of the, like, people don't even need to know the formulas anymore, things like that. Like, their scopes will figure all that out for them, you know. Yeah, I know. It's kind of like the old guy and a kid, you know, teaching them how to use a map, you know. It's like, I got a GPS thing. But what happens if it doesn't work, you know, or the battery goes dead? So it's like one of those, you know, those old guy arguments.

I totally agree with you, Rick, that the prevalence, especially of like, drones and ISR and all of this now takes away a lot of the need for a human on the ground reconnaissance element that's kind of doing those. And obviously a drone can also take lethal action, if need be, which eliminates a lot of those roles that the sniper had. I think what's interesting, though, is there are some thought that in future wars, the electronic warfare environment may be so intense that those drones and those other technologies may not work. And you may actually have to send a two-man sniper team in with old school stacked glass on a scope and making field sketches. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I just, you know, I guess we'll find out, because we talk about the Ukrainians and the Russians. Because that's, you know, what's going on over there right now

is unbelievable when you talk about modern warfare. So when the lessons learned from that work, which is still going on, come out, we'll see. I just don't see that happening, right? It does seem remote, yeah. There's so many drones flying around. They don't even know who's flying what drone from, you know, Russians, Ukrainians, media, civilians, who knows?

Right. So if you're a sniper trying to sneak in on someplace, it's all it takes is like one drone just happens to be pointing in your direction at the right time. I don't care how great a sniper you are. You're going to get caught, right? Yeah, yeah. AI enabled drones with facial recognition technology and all that kind of stuff. it's going to make it very difficult for those guys to hide.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's terrible. Right. And, you know, when you talk about, like, the old school sniper mission, like, it's terrifying when you watch some of those videos of a guy out there thinking he's being all stealthy. Meanwhile, a drone's just watching him.

And then you watch the release of the drones like bomb. Yeah. And it's like, poof. And the guy just rolls over. It's like, well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very interesting. It's very interesting. I don't know what's going to happen, but we'll see. So you started up, the museum. Can you tell us about the museum? The Navy SEAL Museum, we have two of them. One of them in Fort Pierce, Florida, which is the birthplace of the Navy SEAL.

That's where the guys fought and trained for the land on the beaches in Normandy for World War II. And the second one is in San Diego, California, which will be opening in December. So we have two of them. And our job is to preserve the history and heritage of the Frogman, honor our fallen, and take care of our families. And I think what our mission is morphing into nowadays more than ever is just to teach young people that aren't exposed to it about honor, courage, commitment, sacrifice, all those

things that they're not getting out in the world, you know, especially in a lot of the schools, just exposing them to something different, right? Maybe something bigger than themselves that they can maybe try in their lives. They don't have to join the military, but they can maybe join the Peace Corps or just do something that's not all about you and your TikTok and all that other crap. Yeah. That's what our museum. That's it in a nutshell. Some of the stories in the book, if you don't mind.

because, you know, they're not necessarily like combat oriented, but can you talk about your, like, your time, the chapter, I think it's chapter six or something, but like with the Yeagers and like what kind of how that influenced you? Because what I thought was cool in the book is a lot of these like moments that catch your attention that sort of mold you and influence you. Right. So back in those days, I was in CLT, too, in a winter worker platoon.

And our job was Arctic Warfare, right? So we would literally go with the Norwegians and ski patrol the border of Russia, right? So I think about that nowadays, and I'm just like, boy, you know, I guess a lot of things have changed since then. But that was the way to do it back in those days. And I was able to learn from the best, right? The Norwegians were the phenomenal skiers. They knew how to live in a cold. and we worked together to, you know, form a relationship and a partnership that, you know, if something did happen, we were ready to play.

So it was just one of those things that was a great experience in my life that will never happen again because, like I said, technology is taking over that job. And, you know, I think about that now. All it takes is one set of ski tracks for a helicopter to see it. And, you know, don't say that, Rick. Our guys were over there in Sweden and Norway training all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if they think they're going to ski somewhere. Maybe snowmobiles.

Yeah. What are, what are like some, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, right. No, go ahead. Like, what are some of the other, like, if there were one or two, like, really, I don't know, of formative things that you recall. Because you had an incredible career and you, and in a peacetime world, like you said, you saw every, you know, prior to the GY, you saw every military action there was or a part of it somehow. So I'd really be curious to know, like if, you know, you have these museums to speak to young people.

Like if you could speak to people, like, what were some of the really formative things that you saw that happened to you? Wow. I guess the point is that if you have a young person that has any desire to serve, you know, directing them to the museum or other veterans to try to help them through it, I think is phenomenal because there's just not that many places out there like that, or veterans, for that matter. I mean, I think there's 2% of this country or veterans, 2%, which is not a big number. So if you have a kid wherever, Brooklyn, you know, there are odds of meeting somebody are slim and none because it's not in their world. So a place like the museum, or in my case when I went to the recruiter's office and then was able to go down to Great Lakes, take my screening test from a Navy SEAL that was actually giving it to him even though I wasn't in the Navy yet that was you know

priceless for me right so I actually got to talk to them figure it out put myself to test to make sure I could pass and then and I did so it was even still at that point not really knowing what I was getting into but you know I think you know anytime you can nurture something like that in the young person or even older folk is invaluable to us now And I think it's more important than ever in our country. So I hope that answers your question. Yeah, absolutely.

Are there, aside from, like, some of the things you've talked about in the book, though, are there moments that you remember back to and that you recall that made such a huge imprint on you in that moment, that it's like it changed your way of thinking? Well, I think, you know, like, have written in the book. and why I think I made a number of those chapters is because when I made mistakes, that's when I learned the most. Yeah. You know, and I was held accountable for my actions, and I had a chance to actually, and luckily, they didn't, you know, cost anybody their lives. I was, you know, it meant something to me because I was a lesson learned and I took it on board.

Yeah. never try to do that again, right? And I think, you know, throughout the book, I think you'll see a number of those times when I did make mistakes. And I did learn, and I hope I became a better leader from them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really interesting, though,

is because people we've talked to it in the past, too, like they've had one or two good leaders along their way that really informed how they wanted to be a leader and kind of changed what they saw as a leader. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, and I've worked with a bunch of great ones and I've worked with a bunch of bad ones. And so, you know, obviously when I'm out of yourself, I'll be good words and both the bad ones leave. But what happens a lot of times in the Navy is a lot of the bad ones hang around right, because they just, you know, if you last long enough, you get promoted. Yeah. And unfortunately, so. But the good ones then ultimately, end up winning overall. Can we talk about that for a minute though, the bad ones because the middle, like a bad

management or bad leadership at any job can make that job miserable. The problem in the military is that that person has a significant amount more control over you than a bad manager does at the office here. How, what would you recommend to people or what in your experience, how do you make it through those leadership challenges, those bad leaders? Well, there's a couple ways in the Navy, at least every two years, the bad leaders would leave, right? So they would be in command for two years and then they move on. So if you could last the first place in time, right?

If you can last the two years, you got to be. The second way is that, you know, for yourself, you've got to make a decision, right? If they are that poor and you are just that unhappy, it's time for you to go, right? Because, you know, no bad leader is worth your soul. You know what I mean? So I actually made that decision when I left Steel Team 6. I was just like, okay, I've been there a long time. I don't know.

It's time to move on, but this one guy helped me make the move. right so it was all it's all i needed how important do you think leadership is to culture you know when we hear about some of the challenges that certain seal units have had or certain special forces units have had how much you think is the guys and how much do you think that is attributed to just poor leadership i think it's poor it's all a poor leadership I'm not just talking officers, I'm talking senior enlisted guys. So when you have a poor officer and a poor and senior listed, it's a recipe for disaster. And I think if you look back at the problems of the past in the particular seal teams,

you'll see that that was the combination. Four senior enlisted and a poor officer, you know, or it's in the Navy or runner list, right? You're just going in circle. They're all over the place. And I think, and, you know, my enlisted counterparts, I won't want to hear of this, but I think in most cases what ends up happening is the officers end up are the ones that end up getting the discipline or whatever is going to happen or the blame, but a lot of times it falls squarely on the senior enlisted guy too,

and they need to step up. Yeah. No, it's interesting because, I, I mean, we've talked about not just with the seals, but with special forces and some of the challenges they're going through, you know, the Green Beret and whatnot. That, yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to tell sometimes. Is it some cultural rot that happens in these units? Is it just a top-down problem? Is it a middle up-and-down problem?

Like, where does it start? No, I think, you know, now you're really getting into deep into this. But I think it's accountability. You gotta hold people accountable for their actions. And what happens, at least from what I've seen, is that when people aren't held accountable, no matter where they are in their, you know, in the position, whether they're a squadron leader

or a team chief, they have to be held accountable. And if you don't, you let them get away with it, the younger guys see that. And it just, that's when the culture starts. And, you know, there's, there's, no way to fix it, right? And then if you happen to, you know, do the same, you know, hold somebody else accountable for something that somebody else just got away with, then it makes it even worse. Yeah.

And then they clearly know that there's not, it's like what's going on now in the country, right? So it's like, you know, if people think that other people are being held accountable and others aren't, it's just bad. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else? I mean, no, that's, I mean, do we have any questions? Oh, yeah. Let me check the questions. Do we?

Yeah. Let me try to pull those up for you. I'll get to the questions here. One in the YouTubes. One in the tubes. Oh, you actually have live questions. Yeah, yeah. We do.

Oh, yeah. You guys are like high speed. People want to know. Let's see here. What's the bottle of? sitting on the desk there. What is that? Lagovoolin. We got Lagovooling. We have

1792 and then we've got bullet. Excellent. Yeah, Rick, if you're ever swinging through New York, feel free to come by, have a couple drinks with us. I'd love you. So here,

thank you, Stu. Rick, can you share your thoughts on the folks out there who think Buds is unnecessarily too hard and what is going on with former Buds CEO Brad G. Okay, so a good question. Do I believe it's too hard to answer to that as no.

The Buds has been the same for 80 years, right? It started in Fort Pierce, Florida, right here at the Navy SEAL Museum, and it hasn't really changed it in 80 years. And what's unique about it is it trains guys to quit in training and not in combat. That's the whole goal, right? And the instructors are masters of getting guys to quit. So it's all in your head.

So I think it's an important part of seal training. I don't think it should change. I think it's what keeps us at the top of the food chain is our standards. And without holding those standards, we would be like everybody else. When you start changing the standards, then all of a sudden, anybody can make it in. And, you know, there's a reason that the requirement is like 15 pull-ups for a seal

because you have to be able to climb a caving ladder to board a ship, right? So there's a lot of different things. And if you change that, then what are you saying, that you don't have to climb a ship anymore? So anyway, as far as Brad, I can't really make a judgment on that. you know, he was in a shitty situation during shitty time. There have been death set buds before, unfortunately. But I can assure you that there's, you know, when it does happen, it's unfortunate, but there's so many safety, uh, safeties in place that, you know, it's very rare.

And in this case, you know, when something like that happens, they have to blame somebody. right yeah um i have some questions here uh this one's from alix he asks what were some of the biggest cultural shifts in seal team six from when you started to when you left i think uh one of the biggest shifts was like you know when i first came in there you know you were valued for your uh your physical ability your ability to shoot uh move communicate that kind of stuff um and i think what's happen now is that you still have to do all that stuff plus you have to be tech savvy right right so that's that's the big shift there so every you have to do everything i used to do plus you have to know all this other stuff like uh you know all the new radios and the GPSs and everything else

that is uh uh require laser range right that's required to do your job now so you have to have to have some sort of savvy to be able to do that so i'd like to think i still could do that but uh well I'll never know. I don't know if you have any experience with this one, but Sim asks, how was Richard Marsenko in reality compared to his rogue warrior persona? Okay, I actually knew Cap Morsenko very well. I had a number of times to speak to him and with him.

So what I'll tell you about Mersenko is this. There was no single man in the Navy that could have done what he did. And that was to start SEAL Team 6, and he did it all on his own, right? It was his idea. He happened to be the right guy in the right place at the right time. Now, you're either a lover or a hater of him. So, you know, I don't particularly care for what he did because when I was, the whole time I was at SEAL Team 6,

we were paying the price for what he had done and in the Navy. And there was a lot of bad blood between our command and the rest of the military. So how we let it. But other than that, like that's what I'll say. He was larger than life. He was, you know, obviously a war hero in Vietnam. And like I said, he did something that nobody else could do to this ever again. God bless you. I got to have a lunch with him once and absolutely agree. Very colorful character,

larger than life, no doubt about it. Yeah, and his little pony tail there. Sean has two questions here. Did you learn any cool ocean rescue techniques that you can talk about? Cool ocean rescue technique. So when you go through buds, you're taught life-saving. So every seal goes through life-saving training, you have to be able to save your buddy in case they're in trouble. And the ultimate test of that training is that you have to go save, I can't remember how many instructors, right, back to back. And I can tell you that I almost drowned trying to save these instructors because what they were trying to do was making drown.

So if you didn't learn some basic techniques, just basic life-saving techniques, I don't have any cool ones, you were going to drown and they were going to drown you. And some of these guys were going to drown you no matter what. So luckily, I was not on the bad list, so none of them wanted to kill me. Because, I mean, in the water, everybody's even, you know what I mean? So you have to be, you have to fight hard to save an instructor. This is pretty. I don't have a good answer for that one.

This one's pretty specific. You know, the second question, he's asking about the differences in how, you know, American Special Ops and the United Kingdom Special Ops are organized and specialized. I don't know if you ever worked with the Brits. Did you notice any difference between like the task organization and how they did business? Yeah, we worked with the British Special Boat Service. That was our counterpart, right? So the Army guys worked with the SAS mostly and we worked with the SPS.

Yeah, their system is way different than ours. They do most of their recruiting from the Royal Corps. Royal Marines, they go into the SBS. They have a selection course similar to the Buds, just like the SAS does, but, you know, they're all different. Yeah, their system and how they're set up is just totally different than ours. I don't know how to, I'm not an expert on them, but SPS guys that I have worked with and continue to know them and be friends with. They're, you know, they're on par with us and every step. Yep.

Yeah, that's it. We didn't have more questions to come in here. Rick, is there anything that we've missed or failed to cover that you'd like to talk about? No, just say, you know, any your listeners out there, if they're ever down here in Fort Pierce, Florida, please come visit the National Navy's CO museum. I think you'll like it. I know you will. You're going to learn a lot. You're going to have fun.

And we have an obstacle course there, just like the one of the one of the United States. Buds in Coronado. If you're feeling a little froggy and you want to run the hospital, I think the record is like two minutes and 30 seconds, which is phenomenally fast. You know, come and do it. You'll have a great time.

So, you know, you find yourself in Orlando and hit Disney World. Come on down to a museum. That's fantastic. And people can, I assume, crash on your couch when they come down? I was kidding. No, they can sleep right in the compound of the museum.

not sleeping on my house. You can go to our website, and that's, you know, Navy Seal Museum.org and learn all about us. Links are down in the description for those of you who are watching on YouTube. And once again, everybody please check out his book. It's really great. It's phenomenal. And it's, you know, like I said, it's from a lot of people, you get all the war stories and really what you get from Rick's book is just really all the leadership stories,

all the human stories, which, which is, really a fantastic sort of view into the you know into rick's life into the military thank you very much guys and uh for everyone out there we will be back this friday with uh we're going to have a retired b1 bomber pilot here in studio so we're looking forward to that um we'll see all you then rick thank you so much thank you i appreciate it we'll see you everyone