The Team House - 5 Tours Abroad as a CIA Officer | Michele Rigby Assad | Ep. 322

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

Michele’s career began in Washington, D.C. working for an international relief and development agency in its government relations department. Michele joined the CIA in January 2002 and spent a decade serving as an undercover intelligence officer in the Directorate of Operations. Specializing in counterterrorism, counterintelligence and lie detection, Michele spent the majority of her career in the Middle East. She had five overseas tours, to include Iraq and other secret locations.Since leaving the CIA, Michele and her husband Joseph have run an international consulting firm that provides support to Western and not-native companies working in the Arabian Gulf, the wider Middle East, and several countries in Asia and Europe (SITE Advisors). She is also a keynote speaker, trainer, and author.Grab Michele's books here:⬇️https://michelerigbyassad.com/Order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnPodcast/featured—————————————————————-Today's Sponsors:GhostBed⬇️https://www.ghostbed.com/houseFOR 50% OFF!!!Mando ⬇️https://shopmando.comPromo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack.____________________________________Pre-order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]0:00 startBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House channel and podcast if you'd like to and we really appreciate that so go it and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house special operations covert ops espionage the team house with your host jack murphy and david park hey everyone welcome to episode 32 of the team house i'm jack here with

Dave. And our guest on tonight's show is Michelle Rigby Asad. She is the author of Breaking Cover and Get Off the X. She served as a CIA operations officer. We're very excited to have her on the show. I as quickly want to remind everyone that we're on Patreon. And if you guys go and subscribe for $5 a month, you will get access to all these episodes as well as our sister podcast Eyes On. You'll get access to all those episodes ad-free. And we really appreciate you guys supporting the show. So Michelle, welcome to the show. Appreciate having you on tonight. So happy to be here. So let's dive right into it. Tell us a little bit about your origins. How did you grow up and how did that begin to? I think we got to go through your college and missionary experience also before we get to governmental service. But start to take us through that.

Yeah. So I am from a very rural town in central Florida. Had a great family growing up. very limited in my knowledge of the world. I thought I was going to be like a ballerina or a pediatrician or a pharmacist growing up. But right after I graduated high school, I went on my first overseas trip, which was a mission trip to Egypt. And so at the age of 18, I had my first passport and went to the Arab world. And that was super fascinating. And then I ended up following that with a semester abroad as an undergraduate student. So I spent another semester in Egypt and then three weeks in Israel in the West Bank at that time. And so this just kind of ignited a passion to understand this foreign culture that I was never exposed to growing up. And I followed that up with getting a

master's degree in Arab Studies from Georgetown University. And eventually, long story was recruited out of Georgetown into the agency. Wasn't there some missionary work in between where you met your husband? What was the chronology there? How did that come about? Yeah. So actually, Joseph, my now spouse, was the one who led this mission trip when I was 18 and went to Egypt. So it was quite fascinating because his, the orphanage that he grew up in and that his parents ran is in Upper Egypt. And it's an amazing place. And we volunteered for for four weeks, painting beds and the hot Egyptian summer sun.

So he led that team. He was a leader even in his youth. And then he and I both co-led a mission trip to Russia and Ukraine right after the fall of the Soviet Union. So that was 1993. Fascinating. Yeah. So interesting. So, yeah, those were the two mission trips that I was on as an undergraduate.

Wow. And so, yeah, in addition to meeting your husband, I mean, this is also your introduction to the world in many ways. and it ignites that interest. Oh, absolutely. And I just thought, what is this Islamic culture? I wanted to understand the intricacies of that because meeting Joseph, who is a persecuted Christian, I was like, man, this guy already knows what it's like

to put everything on the line for your faith. Why would someone do that to another human being? So I was just kind of trying to understand that world. So that's probably Joseph is very, Joseph is the reason why I really wanted to get that deep dive. And I was so motivated to make sense out of that lack of understanding, I think. And I now understand that it was just a passion to understand human behavior that drove all of that. Yeah.

What's your impression of, especially in America, our, like we have a tendency to equate Arab with Islam. But that's not the history of the Arab world. And what do Americans not understand about Christianity and Judaism in the Middle East or in these Arab countries? Well, they were the originals. So, of course, we know Israel has been a nation or the people of Israel have been in that area since, you know, for thousands of years. And what people don't understand are in these countries like Egypt and Iraq and Syria. They had a huge population of Christians. Why? Because they were originally all Christian. So by the third, fourth century after Jesus, all of Egypt became Christian. And it wasn't until

Islam came in in the 7th century that things started to turn and people started to convert for various reasons. So the people who are still Christian in Egypt, which is a good 10 to 12, 13 percent of the population are, you know, have hung on to that faith, basically come hell or high water through all of these centuries. And so when you've got a population of a hundred million people, that's a significant number of Christians and minorities. Yeah. There used to be, as you mentioned, a lot of Christians in Iraq, but unfortunately the war

has, they have fled. Same with Syria. We're about to see even more Christians fleeing Syria. with this new, the ideologues in charge, turning it into a religious state. So, yeah, it's not a good story for minorities, unfortunately. Yeah. And then how did, if I recall correctly from your book, you and your husband pretty much applied for the CIA at the same time?

Very close. Yeah. So this is funny because it just shows how sometimes your life doesn't go in a particular direction, but because it wasn't meant to. So when I first got hired, offered a position by the CIA, when I was a student at Georgetown, they offered me an analyst position. So that would be primarily analyzing intelligence behind a desk at Langley. And I went through that entire process. And then right after I graduated Georgetown, I was almost about to start that job.

And then they rescinded the job offer, saying I no longer met the requirements for this position. which I had no idea what that meant. I now know they overhire for positions because not everybody gets through the clearance process. So while I was just grief-stricken and completely shocked by this, didn't know what I'd done wrong. So probably about six months later, Joseph and I learned about the other side of the CIA, which is the operational side. These are, you know, this is the people you see in the movies, right? and my husband said, well, that is the coolest thing I ever heard of. I want to work for the CIA.

And I said, well, you know, go knock yourself out then. I mean, I don't think I'm employable by the CIA, but maybe you are. So he started the process to apply to the National Clandestine Service. And then as he was going along that process, his recruiter, of course, they learn all about your life. His recruiter was like, so you have a wife and she's an Arabist too? and he was like, yeah. And so they were like, well, we need to, we need her resume. So I basically got pulled into the application process through Joseph and then ended up getting

into the clandestine service, which is so different because this is pushing you out into the field instead of just, you know, staying in the D.C. area. In a sense, it's really like the perfect cover, isn't it? Like you guys really legitimately are husband and wife and can travel that way. Yes. Yeah, that's right. So talk to us a little bit about going through the farm and what that experience was like for you. Yeah. So, you know, you get into the CIA. You don't know very much about it because through that long process, they're just peeling back the onion a little by little. And so as you're getting in, you still really don't know what you're getting into or whether you truly do have the skill set and the internal fortitude for this job.

And then you go through this whole year of tradecraft training and you're doing things you never did in your whole life unless you've, you know, scoped out a bank to rob it. Like you don't conduct surveillance or you know, these are things that are just not anything you ever thought about. So you do all kinds of, you know, you learn how to recruit someone. You learn how to handle that source. You learn how to spot double agents. You learn how to write intelligence reports. You learn how to vet information. And it's just a really fascinating process because what people don't realize is how much

intelligence collection on the ground is psychological. And it's mind games and it's psychology vespinaj is fascinating. So you're learning all that for a year. And if you don't meet their requirements, if you can't handle huge amounts of stress, if you have a ton of anxiety, if you can't write well, because you've got to be able to write up what you've collected, you've got to be able to communicate decently. If you can't do that, you're cold from the program. And so this whole time, you're like, well, let's see if I can do this.

I don't know if I can. Let's try it. I noticed quite a bit of that in the book that, you know, about pushing your limits, going to places outside your comfort zone and going down pads and, life that maybe were unexpected for you but turned out to be the right path for you. I think you also volunteered for the paramilitary training while you were in the forum. I mean, I'd just like love to ask like, what was that inside of you that was like, I'm going from missionary work to this.

So, yeah, the paramilitary training was at the end. So if you made it through the trade craft training, you were allowed to do that. And we already knew that we were going to be sent to a really tough first, in a really dangerous place. So it was really important for us to get that training, which was how to get out of an ambush. We had to qualify in a Glock and an M4, not that CIA officers should ever be actually using them.

Like, that's just the worst case scenario, but you do any need to know. You need to know how to navigate. So land nav. I had never done that before either. So all these interesting things, and it turns out I'm, great shot. I didn't know that. That was really fun. Oh, but high performance driving is my favorite

part because I'm a pretty progressive driver. That worked out really well for me. So how many people did you pit on the way into work today? Not enough. Never enough, right? Is that wrong? No, no. You and your husband graduate from the farm. Tell us about your first assignment. And just to frame it for people, what year was this so that people understand? Yeah. So I was in a separate training class from my husband. He finished about six months ahead of me. So he had a short-term six-month deployment to a location we can't mention.

Then when he finished, and I finished my training, then we were deployed in 2003 to a, it's now considered a war zone. But back then it was just kind of like on the end. edge. It was one of the kidnapping and carjacking couples of the world. Because it wasn't classified as a war zone, it was a two-year tour. Boy, guys, that was a tough place. Like, we kind of look back now and think, how did we do that? Right. Cut your teeth on that. That place was hard. Yeah. Yeah. And was it still considered a like a hardship tour even though it wasn't a combat zone? Yes, it was. Yes.

So we've got all the special H. H. H.E. stuff that you don't get in a normal tour because it's hard to get certain kinds of food in those locations. Right. So how is that for like a young couple, a young agency couple that's getting a hardship tour like right out the gate? It was super interesting. I tell you. We wanted adventure and it definitely was adventurous. But it's really bonding because, outside of work, there isn't a whole lot to do in that country. So it's not like we had some robust community we were part of. There wasn't. Right. We did have a very small group of people we would hang out with primarily Lebanese, because Lebanese are everywhere. Wherever you go in the world, you can always find a Lebanese friend. So we have a small group there, but quite honestly, it was very bonding for us. I mean, and you guys remember back then it wasn't, you didn't have

digital books. You couldn't just Zoom your family or WhatsApp your family. Like everything was, it was hard to even send an email. You didn't ever get a phone call. So you really felt quite lonely. And two years is a long time to feel like you're living on the edge of the earth. Yeah. There was also a little bit of an element of like you kind of had to prove yourself a little bit more than your husband, as I recall. Like the station chief kind of saw you as maybe a secretary, you know, that he didn't really see you as an operations officer initially. Yeah, that was really shocking because we just went through the same training as everyone else. So the same ops training.

And I was under the impression from everything that we'd been told that I was being funneled into a particular position called collection management officer, which is like kind of the one step behind the operations officer. So you're supporting the collector. You're helping to identify who they should recruit and what kind of intel they should expect from them. And at that point in time, the agency was very big on women in that particular role and men in the operations position. And it was weird for me because I thought, okay, well, you know, it's the CIA, they must know because they're really smart and they have all this experience. So they should know what we're best suited for. And then I realized as I went along, like all these individuals were coming in with no knowledge of the Middle East.

And I thought, well, how is this my male colleague who doesn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia going to run a source? And he's never even been to the Arab world and he can't speak a lick of Arabic. So how is he going to do a better job with me if I was doing it? And they never even had a conversation with me to know my extensive experience in the Middle East and how much I'd traveled and studied in the Arab world. Like, it was so weird that I had leadership. Never asked me, what's your skill set, what's your passion, what are you good at. I mean, that's kind of like Leadership 101. Right. It was really strange. And you guys see, like, I'm a smiley person. I'm outgoing. I'm friendly. And so people can maybe sometimes misassess that for naivete or a lack of depth.

and that's obviously not who I am. I'm very deep. Yeah. It's unfortunate, I guess. I mean, because the funny thing is that those kind of qualities that someone might underestimate you, I think helped you as an operations officer once you got outside and actually started working with sources. Yes.

It's so fascinating, too, figuring out how to make that work for me. And I didn't know I could make it work. So I went into all of this, realizing that the Dequest, against me and understanding, boy, I didn't need to be told that terrorists don't respect women. I had been on the mean streets of Cairo. I understood. But I had to figure out, like, I got to make this work, right? So I've been studying this religion, the politics, the economy. I've been studying culture. Joseph's been explained to me the nuances of culture you can't learn in a book. And I finally figured out, like, I crack the code how to get these guys to respect me and then work with me.

But it's such a fascinating process. Do you think that, do you think that, like, the chief of base making you a CMO was sort of part of, I don't want to say, you know, sexism on his part or the agency part, but sexism on his part, or that in this semi-permissive environment, he thinks, I don't want to expose women to the threats out there, which is also sexist, but I think maybe from a different space, right? Yeah, I would understand that fear, the ladder that you suggested. So it was interesting.

So it wasn't necessarily his choice for me to have that position. It was actually an agency-wide preference at that time. And then also the application. outgoing person in my position. She was leaving and they're like, well, we need someone to fill that slot. So why, you know, you should go in there because we've, the headquarters has identified you for that position and we need you. So I kind of just slid into that spot. And then I said, well, that's cool. But while I'm here, do I get to do any ops besides, you know, being behind the desk? And they're like, why would you want to do that? And I'm like, well, I don't know.

Why did you just train me for a year to do that? Right. Right. So how did you overcome that initial hesitancy that some people in the office had. It sounds like you had to advocate for yourself. Yeah, well, there might be a better way than what I did, but I'm just a quiet, like, I'm not an aggressive person. I'm never going to yell for attention. So I always try to go about it, like, how can I show my expertise in clever ways? So I would say, hey, that cable that came in from headquarters, can I respond to that cable for you? And they say, oh, sure, I mean, like, we're too busy. respond to the cable. And I would find some way to insert language into that cable, which demonstrated the depth of my knowledge about the Arab world. And I remember a couple of cables

that I wrote, that the person in charge who'd kind of underrest and made me up until that point, he like looked at me different after I wrote that cable. And I was like, well, I just got to keep doing that, like in a good way. Like, huh, there's more to you than... Yeah, you were a little sneaky, but in a good way. Yeah. That's how I've always operated. I'd rather demonstrate my proficiency and demonstrate my skills. I don't want to demand respect.

I want to earn it. And that's how I've always approached these things. And so any interesting or memorable experiences from that particular trip beyond that that you'd like to share before we move on? So many. I mean, I think probably. the most interesting experience. I mean, there's so many to choose from.

It was a very dangerous place, but I had to actually use my counter ambush training one day on the way to work. And it may have saved my life. I mean, thankfully, we'll never know what could have happened because I reacted properly. But you guys know how quickly things devolve on the ground if you don't react well. Yeah. You're talking about where you got mobbed a little bit.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So yeah, it was, to you guys, again, most of your audience will know what I'm talking about, the concept of get off the X. So for those who don't know, the concept is how to survive an ambush by a terrorist or a criminal. And the X is literally the site of the attack. And it's the area that the terrorists have chosen because they have the advantage in this location. So if you're going to maximize your chances of survival, you've got to get off the X. You've got to get off the X. You've got to. to move. And if you're not familiar, unless you've trained your brain to fight the freeze response, it's highly likely you will freeze and highly likely something bad will happen to you as a result. So you have to get trained out of that freeze response in order to move. And of course, they tell you if you can drive off the eggs, you need to stay in your vehicle because that's the safest place. But if your tires are shot out or an RPG hits the engine compartment and your engine is no longer, operable, you got to get out of your car and run. And then it sounds ridiculous, but you have to tell

people, you got to get out in your car and run the opposite direction of the terrorists. Sometimes people get confused and they run towards the attacker. So there's, I had to use that concept when I was stopped at a light. And do you guys want me to go into those details? Yeah, go for it. Okay. All right, here we go. It's everybody's favorite story from my first book, Breaking Cover. So I was stopped at a light and there was a car beside me and a car behind me and I was up against the curb and a man was crossing the street in front of me and this is a country where all the women were Monacova, which is literally just only the eyes showing. And he looked up through the windshield as he was crossing the street and he saw my uncovered face. And it was too much for him. he started carrying out a self-pleasureing activity in the middle of the road and broad daylight,

like probably like 8.45 in the morning in the middle of the road in front of my car. And I was like, what the heck? I had been all over the Middle East. I had traveled. I had never seen anything like it in my whole life. And I thought, well, isn't this the most humiliating thing I've ever had happened probably? But as I was sitting there and he's doing his thing, I suddenly realized that like men are coming out from the shops to see what is eliciting this guy's behavior. Not like they were disturbed by him, but they just wanted to see like something interesting is causing this and what is it?

We must see. And unfortunately, this is a country where there's just a ton of unemployment and there's a lot of weapons. So we had seen multiple car issues and people would literally throng, throng whatever happened and want to see whatever they could, especially if they're women in the car, they just wanted to see inside, take a look at the women. And so I realized these members were coming out, and they're about to surround the car.

And then I realized that once the car was surrounded, I could be taken as a target of opportunity. by tribesmen because that was a really great thing to do. You were worth a lot of money as a Westerner, and they would take you and they would sell you to Al-Qaeda, and then you would end up on a video getting your head cut off. And my husband, I told each other, like, you can never get taken. Like, it's better to die trying to get away than to get taken.

Yeah. And you guys know. And then your window of time to react is it's got to be quick, because otherwise my car is going to be surrounded by literally hundreds of men. So I did what I was taught. the CIA. I used my car as a weapon and I had to hit that guy twice before he would finally get up, clear out of the road and let me pass. Was that you hit him once and then backed up to go over me? He had it coming. We all know he had it coming. Yeah, I mean, I hit him and you guys,

it was great because that training worked. Like I hardly thought about it. It just like kind of kicked in. Yeah. And thank God. And knocked him down. And then he got back at because I thought, oh, okay, we're good. I didn't have to fully run him over. I just had to knock him down. Stood back up and then continued. Like, honestly, you can't even make that crap up. And then I had to hit him a second time.

I mean, it wouldn't make a good Viagra commercial, though, right? Like, I mean, so single-minded. But it's crazy, you know, it's one of the, it's interesting because one of the things you're talking about here is also, Breaking out of the sort of Western mindset, I think the denial is something that gets a lot of people trapped. Denying that a situation is evolving and saying, you know, and like telling ourselves, I don't want to overreact here. Like, I don't want to make a big deal out of all these people around my car. It's like, no, like this can lead to that.

That could have gotten really bad. Yeah. And coming. I think that's brilliant what you just said, and that we call that optimism bias. Yeah. We really want to, we're hoping for the best and we would rather count on the best. Right, right. Right.

But as you guys know in a war zone, that you can never hope for the best. You have to plan for the worst. Right, right. So you blew past that guy and threw a bunch of red lights to get back to the embassy, right? Yes. And shook. And I shook probably in an hour, like that adrenaline. pumping through me.

And I couldn't stop. And I was like, well, what's going on? And everybody's like, it's the adrenaline. I realized how very close I'd come to something super bad happening. Just so grateful that I had the right training. Yeah. And then your second tour, you and your husband get sent somewhere very posh from the way you describe it.

Like it was a place that you really wanted to go. And then within a month, that was sort of taken away from you. The CIA had other ideas for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, any of your listeners who doubt I was CIA when I tell the story, if you've worked for government, you're like, yeah, check. So you get sent to the new location, your next tour. And then after a few months, you start hearing whispers that you're about to be surged to Iraq for a year.

And we were like, no, you guys are not hearing that properly. We literally just got to our second tour. And they were like, no, we heard it properly. You've just been put on the list because this great surge that you guys remember, we had in 06, sending everybody from, you know, military, CIA, FBI, Treasury, State Department, everybody was surged to Afghanistan, to Iraq. And so it was pretty disappointing because I felt like, man, we just did two years in such a difficult place. Right.

Like, we need a break. Right. But anyway, five months later, we packed up and then got some more get off the X training and went out to Baghdad for a year. Yeah, that's brutal because generally after those hardship tours, you're given a duty station of choice, right? And then time to decompress. Right. And you guys know that post-9-11 was so different. There were so many people in the military and the CIA that did back to.

back difficult tours one after the other, which is essentially the majority of my 10 years was that way. Now, in the military, obviously, when you receive orders, you have to go to where you're told to go, right? You know, you fall under a legal system that dictates that. In the CIA, could you guys have rejected that? Could you have refused to go? And what would have the rate could? Yes, you can. What would happen if you had? You get set to the next, the basement for your next tour. Yeah. Does it hurt your career if you refuse it to her like that? Yeah, definitely. No question. So you and your husband get to Baghdad when things are particularly hot. What was the situation like? Presumably you guys were working out of the embassy or an adjacent compound. What was the situation like when you got there?

Well, the first few months were not terrible, actually. And then, because we landed in July of 06, and then a couple months after we arrived, I believe my understanding is that Iran sent trainers to help the Iraqis hone in on the rockets to make sure they got where they wanted them to go. And then they would also place spotters in the green zone to help say, okay, little further west, a little further east, you almost got the target, you almost got the embassy, or you almost got whatever you're shooting. at. So they kind of ramped up those rocket operations. And so what went, it went from like kind of fairly quiet to we just got rocketed multiple times a day every day for that year. And so if you were in a hardened facility, that's where you stayed. But if you were out and about, you had to run to a bunker. And it's super hot in the summertime. It's like, well, like it was 130 degrees out. but imagine, I couldn't imagine, being in the military, being out in the streets,

dealing with the snipers and the VB IEDs and the IEDs buried in almost every road and the sectarian cleansing. Like, I feel in a sense, like I have no position to complain about my station because I was in the grain zone on a compound. And there were people who were just every day risking their lives, members of the the coalition, and I really, really respect those people and honor them. How, how, what was intelligence collection like for you at that time? Were they allowing you guys out of the green zone?

Were, you know, how were your source operations and collections going during this, like, heightened phase? Yeah, so during that phase, like our ops officers were going out into the roads end. So my husband, Joseph was doing that for their ops. but they had to be quite clever because you want to limit your time in the red zone quite clever about how you recruit how you identify new targets how you develop them so that's an interesting of course i can't go into the details of that but your the ultimate goal was to collect the intelligence needed for you guys you the warfighters to find the

vb iED before they position it before they or right after they dig the iED and put it in the road. Like, our job was to save your lives. So we were working so hard. Yeah. Like, ridiculous hours to try to do that. Yeah. And were you guys, like, satisfied with...

Because obviously, you can't go to embassy parties and do cold bumps, right? So, you know, like, so, you know, this is a whole new realm for a lot of the agency. Did you feel like you guys, not you personally, but like the agency was growing up a lot in these kind of source methods and things like that. Yeah. Yeah, it was no longer the Cold War, go to the diplomatic sware, see your target with a martini, like definitely not how it works in a war zone. So we had to really think up new ways, new approaches, new methods to connect with potential

targets. And yeah, so we got really good at that. Very challenging environment. Yeah, it sounds like a very challenging environment for you guys to work in. Yeah, and I would say possibly, unless you've been in the industry, you don't know, that the hardest part isn't necessarily collecting intel. It's collecting good intel. Yeah. Yeah.

And talk to us a little bit about that because you describe in your book, it sounds like this is kind of where you start to come into your own and you're really figuring it out. You're figuring out how to run someone who's a terrorist as a source. Talk to us a little bit about source handling and kind of like those initial meetings. So fascinating. So it was really exciting for me because I was still in this position behind the collector, but there was a situation where I was finally permitted to go in and help debrief a terrorist. And that happened to be my spouse's source. So it was really helpful because, you know, he told me everything I need to know about this guy,

mid-level insurgent, you know, told me all about his personality. And of course, I read the file because you want to read as much of the file as you can. And I knew from helping to manage him from an intel collection, like I knew what he was providing. But it was so interesting because, like, I know when I walk in that room that this guy is going to take one look at me and say, oh, my God, an uncovered female. Like, it's so illicit and it's so exciting. And it's just going to make his day for all the wrong reasons. How do I get him over this enormous hump where he sees me as maybe a sexual object versus a professional intel collector or a CIA officer? Right. And so why I told you guys I'm not aggressive and I don't demand respect. Like that's not my

personality. I kind of have to pull that out. So I have to, and I kind of learn to do that in the Middle East. Like you got to learn how to stand up for yourself or they'll eat you for, you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Like, Arabs expect you to stand up for yourself. And if you don't, there's something wrong. So there's a little bit more aggressiveness that's expected. So I understood that. And I kind of had to tease that out of my personality and push it forward.

So I basically, you know, spoke to him in Arabic, greeted him, complimented him on his intel collection and the fact that he was risking his life. and in the process had saved many lives. So I was, by complimenting him, I was putting myself very subtly into a position of power and authority. Like so subtle, that part of it is subtle, that psychology. And when you came spitting fluent Arabic,

that catches them off guard too, doesn't it? Oh my God, totally. Yeah. And just to be clear, I'm not fluent. I'm decent, and I have a good command of like greetings and getting to know someone at a really basic level, but then the rest of that conversation has to be with a translator or linguist. Sure.

Intelligence, every word matters. So I don't have that command of Arabic. But Arabs are gracious. So like any attempt that speaking Arabic is so, like they're just amazed. And then if you're pretty decent at it, like, oh, my gosh, you've just, you've established your bona fides like in like two minutes. Yeah, yeah. And the insurgent.

it was like, mesmomkin, like impossible. Mesh mhmken. I can't believe you speak Arabic like Keef, like how. And I, and I dolas for Kahara. I studied in Egypt and, you know, I start explaining my travels, very important to show them how much you've traveled. Maybe not where you've been, but, you know, you want to show them. And I, you know, I told them all this stuff and he was like, wow, you know,

Mishmomken. Like, you couldn't believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So that went a long way. And so after all of that, what would happen was I established that I was intelligent. I established that I understood the messy politics of Iraq. I was able to reflect my knowledge of Iraqi culture and history. I like worked that into the conversation, like how much I respected Iraqis because they're actually very well educated, very driven people and they couldn't believe I knew these things. And so what happened. was I was able to flip the situation. And now what was my liabilities of female has now turned into my strength because I'm a unicorn. Right, right, right. And so you use it. It's fascinating. So at a certain point in time, do you feel that they stop seeing you as this, I'm like this fetish, this object. And, and that gives you, because that happens, that gives you even more clout than the guy

who would come in and do maybe the exact same thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how those dynamics played out. And I had to be very carefully, you guys, like in these meetings with these terraced and insurgents, I, like, scripted everything in the sense of, like, how close do I stand to him?

Right, right. Like, body language, as you know. Like, so I have to stand close enough that I am projecting confidence, but if I'm too close, then I'm flirting. It's always flirting. right? Eye contact, super important. Too much eye contact though when I'm flirting. You know, when I shook their hands, which I did, I'd shake it, you know, a very strong handshake. And then I would have to pull my hand out of their grip because they tried to hold on to my hand.

Like they just wanted to touch me. I had to be very intentional about all of these things. But I mean, it sounds like a bar in the United States, though. Right. I mean, no, but I get it, you know, because. Because everything that you do, they are processing as what is the message. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

So while I'm processing what he's doing, like I'm reading his body language the whole time, he's processing my body language the whole time. Right. So they're like, and these guys, as you got, as you know, because Saddam had set up so many intelligence services to report on the enemy and to report on each other to remain in control of this dictatorship. What happened was no one knew who they could trust. You have decades of this culture in which you don't know who's a spy. You have to assume everyone is spying for Saddam. Even he set up groups of women to spy on their husbands. So if you think about how destructive that is to a

culture. Because fundamentally, people can't be truthful about their feelings. You're always hiding who you are. And so what you get as a people who grew up under that regime who now know how to lie, how to make it sound believable, how to do so with the right body language, and they are so street smart, you should never underestimate an Iraqi ever. And so you just had to learn how to play it back on them, you know? And there was another source that was interesting that you mentioned in the book, where it was a little, the intel was a little dubious. Like it was this guy like, I think I saw somebody come out of a building.

He might have been an Al-Qaeda guy. He was like, this is kind of like the shadiest type of intel, like hearsay. But it actually turned out to be something pretty important. Yeah. So if you've been in the military intelligence long enough, then you get the idea that, you know, you read a lot about intel, right? And you get a feel for how bad intel reads. And then you know what good intel sounds like. And then you get a gut feeling for what you're hearing or reading. So we had a source who called us, and he was a pretty good source, actually. We like this guy. And I didn't like many of our sources,

but I liked him. I trusted the intelligence he was giving us because it was checking out. And then he called his case officer and he said, he was just all worked up. I just saw this. this dude coming out of this building that my cousin owns and it's supposed to be an empty building. And I know he's Al-Qaeda. And like, how do you know he's Al-Qa? Like, he does he wearing a T-shirt? Right, right. He's got his A-Q badge.

He bagged out of the warehouse. Out of the office. Yeah. You know, and to his credit, this was like, I just saw what he looked like and I saw his behavior and it just made the hair in the back of my neck stand up. it just feels wrong. And so as a CMO, my job was to dismiss information that was like half-baked or lacked nuance and detail. But there was something about that that I was like, I feel like we need to follow that up. And the reason why that was tricky at that time was because Al-Qaeda was

rigging homes to explode that they thought that the military was going to hit. And so they would feed, double agents would feed bad information into the intelligence mix. The warfighters would action our information and then the house would blow up on them. So making the decision about whether to pass that intel on to the warfighter was a really heavy one for me to make because I'm like, yeah, there are lives on the line. And when the military commander called and said, how much confidence do you have in this information? I said, well, I know it's half baked and I wouldn't normally push this over to you, but I just have a funny feeling there's something to this. And he said, well, we've been looking for an Al-Qaeda safe house in that area, but we just haven't

been able to find it. Well, it turns out it was an Al-Qaeda safe house. So when they actioned it a few hours later, what they found inside was one room full of half-constructed IEDs and AK-47s. another room looked like the photos you see from the Holocaust full of dead bodies of Iraqi citizens that had been tortured to death because they went against Al-Qaeda. And then there were three guys still alive, tortured. Probably if you'd left him there another day or two, they'd be thrown into the room with the rest of the corpses.

So they were torn. They couldn't even stand up. So the soldiers took pictures of these guys, but had to literally hold them up so that someone could take a photograph of all of, you know, what they look like with all the torture marks and black eyes and cuts and all, you know, all that. So it worked out. Thank God. It turned out to be like excellent intel.

But there were just moments when you felt like you were flying by the seat of your pants and you were just like praying, like, please God, give me wisdom because this is pretty heavy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like the source intel. initially sounds like it was like a wing in a prayer, but it actually built into something very significant. Yeah, in that case, it did. In a semi-to-non-permissive environment like that,

you know, when people hear that, you know, the U.S. government will pay you money to give information and how hard is it to validate that information. You have people lining up like, you know, you know, like it's a soup kitchen, basically. that's a really good way to put it because it felt that way on the receiving end. Yeah. It was like a fire hose of information coming into us.

Yeah. And I would say it was hard to vet because it takes time to vet. It takes extra energy. It takes creativity. It takes a strategic effort. And your brain is trying to conserve energy because you're exhausted. You're not getting enough sleep. Your sleep is interrupted with rocket attacks.

you're working, you know, so many hours a day from like 9 in the morning till 10, 11, 12, 1 a.m. Taking only a couple hours out to eat and work out and shower. Like, you just don't have the bandwidth to vet because you're exhausted. Yeah. So you have to, I actually, once I realized that we had a really bad lying source and I'd felt weird about him for months, I realized that I felt weird about a lot of sources and I needed to take the extra energy to use other mechanisms to vet the intel. And it turns out that actually we were spinning our wheels on a lot of people that were

lying to get paid to put food on the table. Yeah. Yeah. And in that chapter three sources, I think we covered two. There's one more I'm missing. Oh, gosh. Yes. Which one was from that chapter?

Well, we had a dude who told us he was an emir of an al-Qaeda cell. Ah, right. Yep, yeah. I think I call him Abu Muhammad in the book. But they're all fake names, obviously. Fake cuneas. Yeah, so he had been giving us intelligence for a while, like a good year. And his intel, it was like the best vetting ever because the coalition forces were able to action that stuff. And they've rid that village of Al-Qaeda.

This is a village west of Baghdad. So, I mean, that's like the best betting ever. But the problem was the nature of his information started to change. And I had a meeting with him. It was like my first meeting with him after following the case for a while. And I got into the room with that guy. And boy, you guys, did I feel really weird about him? him. And I, after debriefing him for a couple of hours and then depositing him back in a, you know,

car pickup secret location, then you take him back to the secret location, you drop them off after you're done. I just had this nagging feeling like, what is, something's wrong with this case. Something's wrong with the source. But what? I don't know. I just have a nagging feeling. And again, I cannot overestimate. And we were so tired. I'm so exhausted. And I was like, man, I don't have time to figure this out. But then I'm just really stubborn. So when I glom onto something, I can't let it go, especially if there's some issue of justice and right and wrong.

And I'm like, what's wrong with this source? So I marinate in this struggle for days trying to think like, what happened in that meeting that bugs me? And I started to tease out of my subconscious the fact that he wasn't behaving like all the other terrorists. legitimate terrorist I had interacted with. So I had enough experience that I knew what the baseline behavior was for a bad guy. And this guy did not exhibit those traits. He had a different personality. He had a different constitution. When he got in the car, he was shaking like a leaf. I remember I had a moment when we picked him up that I literally thought, this guy is so nervous. I think he's going to pee his pants. And I mean, it is a nerve-wracking thing to crawl in the

a CIA car to go to secret meeting. It is exhausting and nerve-wracking. But real terrorists, they don't care. They walk in a room and they fill it up. Right. And these arrogant narcissists are so full of themselves and they don't shake. They don't worry. They don't have any anxiety. And so that was my indication that this guy might not be who he says he is. He does not act like the leader of a terror group. And lo and behold, it turns out he was, not only not the Emir, he was never a member of that group. Everyone in the village knew who the terrorists were. He was just the brave guy who knocked on our door and said,

hey, I can tell you who these guys are. Like his 10-year-old son could have told us that. But then he was so successful in giving us the really good information that he worked himself out of a job. So what he did at that point was he just started fabricating information to keep a good thing going and to support his family of 12 people. Yeah. That was not unusual. Is this the same cat that you gave a bag of money to when he walked home?

No, that was the legit. Oh, okay. It was the legit insurgent. The narcissism, yeah. Okay, gotcha. That makes sense. I know. I try to explain to you, this tells you so much about what was going on a rock at that time.

So if you weren't there on the ground, you don't know. There was so much ethnic sectarian cleansing that, Sunnis could not go into Shia neighborhoods. Shia could not go into Sunni neighborhoods, and the poor Christians and Kurds try to stay out of all of that. If you wandered into the wrong neighborhood, you'd get tied to a light pole, and your corpse would be found riddled with IEDs the next day.

Like, you didn't do that. It was too dangerous. The people in the neighborhood knew who their people were, and a stranger would walk through, and they would accost them. And so we, you know, paid this source for this excellent information he gave us that he had earned. And there was so much rocket attacks early that day that they shut down the city. They had at early and we're like,

dude, you can't even take a taxi home from the green zone. You're going to have to walk home. He's like, no problem. And his case officer said, I think this was even, I think this is my husband. He said, look, let me hold the money for you. I'll give it to you in the next meeting. But I just don't want to put you in a bad position, like with your cash. And he's like, nope, I got it. That dude was so arrogant and he waltz through the Shia neighborhood and nobody laid a finger on him. With a bag of cash.

Do you, you know, I know that you got there in 2006 and the war started in 2003. So you weren't like part of that, you know, early strategy and all that. But given your expertise in the area, with all the Sunni and Shia, like, violence. Do you think that the United States' policy of debathification, like AQ is a Sunni organization, right? Do you think that the, and obviously they weren't really there prior to, right? They kind of infilled in. Do you think that the United States policy of debathification increased that sectarian violence and encouraged, you know, like Sunni radicals to come in, to fight, not just Americans, but also on behalf of Sunnis against Shia.

Yes, absolutely. So what we did was we created a void. And when you create a void of that magnitude, it gets filled with the worst elements. Take advantage of that. So because Saddam had set up all of these law enforcement, military and intelligence agencies, the debatification process dissembled all of these security organs. as you know. Yeah.

And did it and one fell swoop. That was the problem. As we just said like we signed, you know, a paper and said like you're all done. Like you're all canceled. And so when you cancel 20,000 people. Right. You get, you get a big problem. And so who filled that void?

Like as you mentioned, like Saddam kept Al-Qaeda and other ideological problems out of the country. Right. But now they came flooding in and not just come flooding in, but the people became more radical. The Iraqis were radicalized. Right. And then Iran took advantage of that opportunity to rush in. So essentially, we handed Iraq to Iran on a silver platter. Right. Here you go. Right. Because there were fewer Sunnis in the country than Shia. The Sunnis were outnumbered. And all these years, Saddam was control, he had a tight leash on that. It helped the minority communities, particularly the Christians, because everybody had to leave them alone. He made sure that they were left alone. But boy, once that that void happened through our very unwise debatification process,

that's what caused the issue. Yeah. And we really did, like we turned it, my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong. But my impression, is we turned it from a toppling of a government, of a dictator, to a war against the Sunni, which, you know, because we very much went against the Sunni initially. And then basically, like you said, invited in all these other extremists and Iran into the game. Yeah, so then you had the Sunnis who were reinforced by foreign fighters

who came in primarily from Syria. and then you had Shia militants who then could be themselves after all of these decades under Saddam's, very strict the way he ran that country. So then we had Shia militants, Sunni terrorists, and they're fighting each other. And then within those communities, you have in fighting for control. So Shia against Shia, Sunnis against Sunnis. I mean, it was like the killing fields. Right, right. You guys remember, I don't know if you remember, like, how?

how bad it was, people could not go to a memorial service or a burial service for a family friend or a member lest they get picked off, gravesite, you know, identified as a, by their sect, graveside, and picked off by terrorists. I mean, that happened a lot. Right. Right. So by 2007, were you guys working on ways to sort of mitigate that? you know, the idea that America is for the Shias, you know, because really we were there because of Saddam, right or wrong, we were there because of Saddam. But because of debathification, this kind of cockamaney idea that we'll just get rid of everybody who works in public service because they're all Sunnis.

Yeah. You know, it looked like we were very anti-Sunni. So were you guys, by 2007, were you guys sort of like, seeing that play out and then trying to change that perception at all? Well, we were playing, yeah, so probably it really started in earnest in 2005. We were playing this American game that we can remake the world into our own image. Right, right. Because this is a uniquely American problem.

We have these rose-colored glasses that we see the world with and we think everyone else is just like America. Right. They have the same values and expectations that we do. You said, we are bringing them democracy. Right. Well, that's just ridiculous in this part of the world. Right. No one's asking for democracy.

They're asking for full and ultimate control. Right. So it's a numbers game, generally speaking. Whoever has the biggest number or the most feared Intel service wins. So you take the Sunnis out and the Shia are going to fill that void. And then we just started pretending like, we're helping you set up the political process. And the Sunnis are like, are you kidding? I mean, we've put them down for so long.

Now they're going to put us down. And if we're all pretending like it wasn't happening. Right. That makes me crazy. Yeah. Was there a realistic view of this, whether it was with the agency or the administration, or do you think that sort of the naivety and, I don't want to say hubris. I think it's more naivety on the part of Americans.

There's been some hubris on the part of our government. Yeah. Do you think that that was still in play? Well, so here's the deal. Like the CIA gets its marching orders from the U.S. administration. Right. We implement what they ask us to do. So we don't formulate policy.

We don't tell people what we think they should do. Our only job in the CIA is to provide intelligence so you can make a good decision. So our marching were orders where you support this political process. and we did that. And the State Department was full on. We were doing a political process. We're implementing a new society here. Right.

And so everyone did, yeah, did what they were told. Yeah. No, it makes sense. And, you know, we've had people on before who've said, like, look, anybody who blames the CIA for anything needs to look at the administration. Because the CIA doesn't set policy. The CIA carries out policy, you know, and, you know, and reports back. And that's.

Yeah. We have very limited authorities, and if you don't, if you're not an intelligence, you don't know that. But we are, we have very clearly defined authorities on what we can and cannot do. And even for operations that are super sensitive that are within our authorities, they're generally briefed up the chain. And if they're super, super, super sensitive, you know, all the way up. So, yeah, we're not like a loose cannon out there doing our own thing. Yeah. after Iraq you guys had another Middle East tour oh yes yeah we had um we had a headquarters

tour and then we had another two field tours and headquarters tour so yeah there was several more want to tell us about the field tours any any memorable experiences you'd like to share yeah let's see what can I share what if I'm allowed to share so that it's interesting to see I doesn't mind letting the world know that we were serving in Iraq or Afghanistan because everyone knows like, but they don't like us sharing the details of the other posts. We don't want to tell people exactly where we are. Sure. So they were challenging as well for different reasons. And I think that's the interesting part of the Middle East, the Arab world, is each country is so vastly different. You know, so Egypt is different than Saudi, is different than Yemen. And

Iraq and Lebanon. I mean, they are so unique. And even within one country, you have numerous subcultures. And I would never, like for instance, I have studied the Arab world. It's my area of expertise. And yet there's so much I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of Libya. I have never served there. You know, so it's a, you're always learning. I think that's what's so interesting about that job was always learning. And another interesting thing is I recently went back to one of those countries that I served in that I was so terrified of going to. This is after Baghdad because that was definitely like my number one fear. Like it didn't want to go to Iraq.

And then this other place they didn't want to go to. And I recently traveled back there and it's changed a great deal. So it also really emphasizes that you might know that place at one point in time. But things change. And if you're going to remain adept at, say, being a consultant like I am in the Middle East, you have to go back and you have to go get on the ground again. Yeah. Because there's just been so many changes.

The herbs spring and the economies and all that. During those tours, was that a little bit more of like a traditional case officer tour where you're going to parties or you're going to gatherings you're trying to recruit people as opposed to the wartime tour in Baghdad that you were just describing? I would say it would be midway between a normal tour and a more danger tour. So a little dicey.

do you feel that because obviously you guys had this hardship tour and then kind of a teaser of what you know of the old school CIA right and then Iraq and then the southern place do you feel that the CIA because I know there's a lot of heartache from quite a few people with the CIA saying that like Iraq's not really our bag like that's tactical intelligence we do strategic intelligence like they're They had that thing with Syria, too. There are other organizations. Do you feel that the CIA is spread too thin when it comes to these wartime environments?

Do you think that they should stick to the strategic intel? Like, where do you fall in that, having done all of it? Yeah, so I think we're very, I think we're good at both because I saw us doing both. I was part of the process of doing both. I thought we got really good in the war zone as tactical intelligence as well, because we had to help save lives. So I thought we were amazing. Yeah.

But we're in a new world now. And the world is very different. So I've been out for 12 years. Yeah. And I make the argument, which is we can't continue to do operations like the way we used to. In fact, I advocate that we have to change our hiring. We have to change our promotion. We have to change how we carry out operations in the field.

Like, obviously we can't go into detail about that. We have to completely do things differently because there's cameras everywhere. Right. Everything is digital. So it's almost like you have to go back to like the old world putting a scratch on the side of a wall. Right. Dead drops. And then the other thing that I see very plainly and very clearly, and this goes back to when I was in the CIA and it's just as appropriate now, we don't have enough substantive experts, period.

And the reason that is is because we have a challenge as a country where we are physically literally isolated. We've got these great oceans on both sides of us. We're not like Europe where you can just like travel to a new country on the weekend. It's expensive for us Americans to travel. We don't have overseas experience by and large. And when we do, it's all Instagram worthy. It's not like a deep dive into a place. So we like for instance, we desperately need people.

people who know the Middle East, the Arab world, Iran, Russia, what am I forgetting? Oh, China, my gosh, the biggest thing is China. Right. But how do we recruit Chinese and insulate them? Because we need people who know Chinese culture. Right. I don't know a thing about Chinese culture. I don't.

I know the Arab world. We need Chinese fluent speakers. We know the we need the people who can understand the ins and outs of what the Chinese government is doing. But yet, those people are always targeted by the Chinese regime if they know who they are in the military, engineers in the private sector. So how do we get people who know China, but we give them a very particular insulated cover that protects them from the Chinese trying to extort them from information? Right. saying if you don't give us this intel that we know you have, we're going to torture your family

back here in Beijing or wherever they live. Right. Right. Like we have to literally rethink how we carry out ops in order to do a much, much better job than we are now. And in terms of like, you know, a few years back, you know, we lost, what was it, 23 or so Chinese agents, right? And do you think that we're sort of, lazy in and I don't know if that was due to a double agent in our own or the technological who's the covecom got compromised

the covecom got compromised that I don't want to say that capitalism is evil because I love capitalism but also also when we're just allowing Chinese companies to furnish parts for our critical infrastructure

you know like how do we manage this because how do we get people in China when they're like, well, 23 Chinese agents just disappeared off the map. Yeah. So you started by asking whether it was laziness or something else. And I think with the issue is it's so hard to turn the Titanic. It is a giant bureaucracy. And that bureaucracy gets entrenched into how we hire and how we train and how we carry out ops. and being able to think anew about those really serious questions is hard to do. It requires incredibly creative and insightful leadership who are absolutely wedded to this.

And then you need those same people throughout the CIA and various levels of that bureaucracy. We have to be willing to cut off appendages that are not working or phase them out and setting up new, flexible, groups that can that are really deep dives into culture and can be very quick on their feet. But I don't think we've had that in the last few years, unfortunately. I don't think I've seen that in the CIA leadership. I've seen a lot of politicization. Right.

And that is very dangerous through the CIA. That's terribly dangerous. So it's not so much laziness as much as there aren't. there haven't been enough people in leadership positions who think differently who are willing to, like, figure out a strategic way to turn the Titanic. Yeah. No, it makes sense. Tell us about your decision to leave the CIA and becoming a security consultant, you and your husband becoming security consultants,

because that sounds like a wild adventure and of itself. Well, it was really scary because if you've been overseas for much of your 10-year tour like we were, you've been undercover, you've been off the grid. You know, everyone was starting in social media and social platforms, and we didn't catch that wave on the way up. So, you know, we're just like back to the old rolodexes. The world changed while we were in the CIA. And then when we made the decision to leave, quite honestly,

being super exhausted from those 10 years, we didn't know what we could do on the outside. And I liken it to like leaving jail after a long term. Like how do you integrate back into society? It's very difficult. And so we didn't have much of a resume. Couldn't tell anybody what we've done for 10 years. Didn't know what kind of jobs we were suitable for.

We didn't know how much we were worth. Are we, you know, how could we get paid? What could we get paid to do? We were very, very lucky, very blessed. that we had a contact of a contact on the outside who had worked with the CIA, who understood ops in the CIA and said, look, I have a company that could use a lot of consulting assistance, vetting partners, and helping to solve some problems in our business in the Middle East.

And that person made it possible for us to jump out of this government boat, you know, the government boat that honestly you could stay there your whole career and be perfectly happy, do a great choice. job, make a difference. And then you're leaving that, the safety and security of that for this unknown world. Right. So it was terrifying. Yeah. Can I ask, what was it that led to you and your husband deciding that you were going to leave? So exhaustion, I would say, was number one. One of Joseph's parents had passed away and he is the only son and the siblings needed to take. care of the other and was told by the CA. It was given a hard time about traveling home to Egypt.

And I mean, if ever given the choice between government and family, that's not even a choice. Right. Like, it just felt like, well, there's the choice right there because your family comes first. Right. So we, and we were so tired. And if you think about it, we've missed out on 10 years of birthdays and anniversaries and weddings and births. And we were ready. We were ready. And also, I mean, this might sound strange, but I felt a real spiritual calling that I was to share what I had learned that this was such valuable wisdom I had gained through all these struggles, all these difficult tours. And I just knew, like this spiritual calling

was so strong. And I just knew that I knew that I knew it, that I had to do it. And somehow we would land on our feet. Right. So now to be on the other end of this, looking back after 12 years and say, there's two books that are out on the market to help other people in their difficult paths of life because life is hard. I get to speak to corporate audiences. I get to speak to other civilian audiences. I get to use my voice to lift other people up and help them along and figure out their paths. We've had an incredible, much better than we could have ever imagined consulting career that's been so successful for us. I have a lot of gratitude for that, but it came through the courage to face those fears, do the hard things, and, you know,

have faith that was all going to work out. You know, you mentioned all of the, you know, the birthdays and the weddings and things like that that you missed out on. And you're not just missing out on them because you're a rock band that's on the road. What are, like, what are you, you're telling your family and your friends, you're lying to them. Right. Like, you can't even really tell them why you were missing all of these events. Yeah. So like our closest family and a couple of friends knew.

Right. Where we were, what we were doing. But outside of that very small group, yeah, it was like we had. had just fallen off the face of the earth because everybody was coming online and Facebook and this and that. And we weren't. We weren't on it. And so people just forgot who we were. Yeah. And then suddenly we popped up again and like, where have you been? Yeah. Yeah. And was it healing for you and them? Like, was it good for you when, you know, you were finally rolled back and you could tell people this is.

why we were in communicato. Yeah. When I did that, when I finally got agency permission to drop cover, which is a big deal, because you have to keep that cover the rest of your life unless you get that special dispensation. Yeah. And I got it. I requested it because I felt like I was supposed to publish these books in my true name versus a pseudonym that if this was going to mean anything to anyone, they had to know

who I was as a person. And thankfully that, you know, the agency said, said yes. And when I told people what I had been doing, people are like, Michelle, like, this is the opposite of what you'd expect for me. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. So I know there were a lot of shock people. Yeah. And what was that like for you, like the first book, the publication review board? We've heard horror stories sometimes. Like, it tends to be very erratic. What was it like for you? So the first book was published in 2018. So I was going through the review process during presidential elections and coming to the 2016.

And I got behind some really difficult, I don't know if they were books, manuscripts, articles, I don't know what, but I got in line behind these really difficult pieces that the PRB could not get through. And so we had to push our publication date back. My publisher had to like two or two or three. three times. Like it was ridiculous. And I kept telling the agency, I was like, hey, guys, I'm not spilling secrets here. I just want to inspire people. And they're like, no, it's too bad for

you. Like, we just take them as they come and you're behind everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. And it is funny because like from what we've heard, it doesn't matter what you're, it can be fiction. It can be whatever. It can be, it does not matter. You could write a book that doesn't talk about the agency at all. and the agency still wants to look at it. Yeah, so people tend to think that the agency wants to be able to agree with what you've written, but that is absolutely not why they review it. They review it to be sure that you're not letting out people, names, operations, any secret information that could compromise the safety and security of current or former CAA operatives

or current or former CIA sources. There are so many little things that they want to review to make sure you're not giving up locations of where you served. So they're not saying like we agree or disagree. You can't say that. Right. If you could lie all day long in your book about what you did and they're not going to say this isn't true, they're just going to say this is or is not classified. That's correct. Very straightforward.

One last adventure, Michelle. 2014-15, ISIS sweeps across Syria and Iraq. And you and your husband go to Iraq to help evacuate Iraqi Christians. It sounds like there was this opportunity with, I believe, was Slovakia. It was willing to take on a certain number of Christian refugees. And you guys went over to facilitate that. Tell us about that. Yeah, so fascinating.

So to give greater context, you know, here you're leaving the agency. And we had friends tell us, like, you'll never feel this level of purpose and meaning again. Like, you shouldn't leave. Like, what you do here matters, like, every day. And I just kept thinking, well, that can't be true. There's got to be meaning and purpose outside the CIA, too. Right. So when we left, we left in faith that God would give us opportunities to use this really unique set of skills for something.

helpful beyond us. And so when 2050 was 15 was occurring, your audience will likely remember. It was the summer of the great migration of refugees from the sea, from the land. They're coming to Europe from every direction. ISIS overtake Mosul, Iraq's second largest city, swept across northern Iraq. As they were sweeping across the country, they were swallowing up Kurdish and Christian and other towns of minorities, they were given the ultimatum convert or die. Right. So overnight, and I'm not kidding,

it happened overnight for multiple of these villages where the Kurdish authorities had kind of headed off ISIS, were taking control of these villages for the Christians and others, and finally said, like, we're about to be overrun, guys. Hey, heads up. We're about to release this village. you guys are on your own. And so hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians from these ancient, ancient towns of Iraq who've been there since they converted to Christianity in the first,

second, third centuries. We're now flooding into Kurdistan. And so we got put together with a small group of Americans, just a few people who said we have to do something to help. And so that was Hollywood producer Mark Burnett and his Hollywood producer wife, Roma Downey. who have a real soft spot in their hearts for these persecuted minorities. And they said, can you take this? We can fund it. We have somebody to work on the advocacy piece, somebody do the fundraising piece. Can you get on the ground? Can you find people to help? Can you figure out where to take them and can you make it happen?

So I think what was so fascinating about this post-CIA operation was all of these weird skills and knowledge that we have were used to figure out, who to work with. So we found this community of internally displaced persons in Onkawa or Beal under the care of a particular rocky priest. And we decided we were going to work with them. There were like over 500 people in that camp, that church camp. And then, okay, we're going to collect all their data. We're going to pre-vat their information in order so that when we go to potential countries and conduct diplomacy to find someone to take them, that they'll be more willing to take these people. Unfortunately, it was the summer of the Great Migration, and nobody

needed more refugees. They were already inundated. So it was a worst possible time to try to make this pitch. But we found the one country, Slovakia, that said, we're willing to take refugees. we have some spaces to bring them in. Okay, we've seen what you've done. We're kind of amazed by it. Like you guys pre-vetted this. Like you've saved us probably a good year of time. It would take us just to decide who to work with.

You've vetted the people. You've vetted their stories. We met with all of these people face to face in Iraq. And then we're able to affect this amazing. And I am not kidding. Totally miraculous. airlift on December 10th, 2015, and we were able to bring 149 Iraqi Christians to their new homes in Slovakia, nothing short of a miracle. So we had our own capabilities and strengths and all of this,

but then I honestly believe it was like the hand of God intervening. And when you read my book, like it reads like a Hollywood movie, and I'm not kidding that in the middle of it, I was like, am I in a movie right now? This is crazy as we're driving to the airport to try to make this great escape. Everything that could go wrong went wrong. Murphy showed up in all his splendor as he always does in operations. But it happened. We did it. It's amazing. And hopefully, hopefully those people are thriving in their new countries, either Slovakia or wherever they went, secondary to that. Yeah, we did the best we could to give them another chance. Do you, I don't want to get political, but I want to ask your impression of, you know, we talk about immigration.

It's a huge topic here in the United States right now. It's a huge topic in, like, the UK and Europe. And you're talking about a very selective group of, you know, Christians out of Iraq or wherever. Do you feel as though the discussion about immigration should be more nuanced about, like, if we talk about Arabs, like we're talking about Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Christian Arabs, and in some very small cases these days, Jewish Arabs, much smaller populations there now. But do you think that the conversation should be more nuanced about, is it Arabs that people are worried about? Is it, you know, or whether it's Arabs or Africans or whatever cultures, do you think that there is more cultural,

sort of continuity or, you know, I'm struggling for the word. But do you think that bringing in people from these other countries that share religious foundations or spiritual foundations is an easier path? That's what I was going to ask. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm an expert vetter. Okay.

So I know how to vet people and their claims and their information. So if you've got a group of people, say a group of Christians, it is very easy to tell if they're Christian, right? And they're under the authority of a priest. So it's very easy to vet that information through those religious channels. Right. And they tend to share the same values and tend to, right? Like broad strokes, we're speaking.

Sure. Yeah. So in terms of vetting, I would say they're easier to vet. Now, the problem after Iraq and the war, was that the Bush administration didn't want to admit that they've made such a big problem of Iraq, and that it was causing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians to have to flee for their lives. Right. So they refused to even consider a special dispensation for the Iraqi Christians, which was extremely disappointing for us.

Right. We're like, we caused this mass, we should do something about it. Right. So unfortunately, it is not a good nuanced conversation, but, you know, the whole concept of vetting and anyone you bring into our borders, it was so overly politicized and rational, basic common sense was thrown out the window to what I've heard somebody refer to as like a toxic or misplaced empathy. Like, no country that I've ever been.

into what I've ever served in says anyone can come in at any time no matter who you are. Right. If I want a visa to the Emirates, the very specific things I've got to do to get there. If I want a visa to Saudi Arabia, again, why would we suddenly say anyone can come in at any time for any reason? It's quite the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Right. I say that while also noting it is difficult to vet people.

Right. It is very difficult. but I can also tell you there's certain red flags that as a person who's lived and served in the Middle East, that I'm like horrified that our organs of government don't realize this. Do you remember all those military-aged males from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, flooding into Europe with no identity papers? Yes. Now, if you know anything about the Middle East or that part of the world, your identity papers are everything.

You can't do anything in these Arab countries without your ID. So if somebody shows up without their ID, that's the biggest red flag of all. Right. They are lying to you that they lost it. Right. Are they relying on the West's sort of sense of cultural superiority as like, oh, well, these poor people, they don't have IDs in their country? I laugh ignorant totally ignorant yes and we're like oh they're just you know all people saying their humanitarian refugees are exactly what they say I love this American view that no one ever lies to us

right I'm like oh my god I assume everybody's lying to me until I can prove it otherwise right right yeah they they it's just it makes no sense to me it defies logic so how does the U.S. or other Western countries handle this idea of helping out these Christian minorities without the onus or the impression that we're being anti-Muslim or anti-Islamic or anti-you- know, whatever else it may be. I think it's acknowledging the reality that whether it's because of Islam or it's because of culture or because of tribalism, I don't care. These people are persecuted on another level. Right. And there's extreme types of persecution and then there's a low level everyday kinds of

persecution that these people face. So I prefer to just to present the facts of what these people face. Now, you can say, oh, I'm so offended that you, no, no, no, don't be offended. This is what's happening, you know. Right. Pakistani Christians, are probably some of the most suffering minority communities in the world. They have it so bad. We should have special dispensation because it's so well documented. It's so well understood. And I make no apology for taking that stance.

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I'm not a religious person myself, but I understand that a lot of the cultural gaps, a lot of times are due to religion, right? that what a religion teaches whether, regardless of how somebody grew up where they grew up, their religion is also going to fundamentally

form them in many ways. It's your worldview, right? So just to give you one basic distinction. So in the Judeo-Christian worldview, whether we realize it or not, the idea is a very democratic notion we're all equal before God. Islam is a very different order

of the world. And the Quran says there are Muslims and there are non-Muslims. And according to Sharia law, because Islam is not a religion that says your religion can be compartmented in your life. Your religion is your state. Your religion is your authority. It's your legal system. So we have this separation of church and state in the United States that does not exist in Muslim majority countries. And so you have an entire legal system and cultural. set up where there is the class of Muslims and then there's everyone else that are treated differently in that worldview. And that's not something that anyone would argue. That's just how it is. And how should the United States look at people like Saddam Hussein, Assad, you know, these really

sectarian, you know, dictators who are weird. y'all will say they are horrible horrible human beings nobody will ever argue that fact yet they and they may like pay lip service to a religion but they're not really religious people you know but then we look at them and we say we need to get rid of them and we see that that never really works out the way we want it to the way we think it should right right my american vision did not come to pass in Iraq. Right, right. Yeah. So it's, it's, yeah, all these years people have been complaining about Bashar al-Assad in Syria. And I'm right there with him. All of us can agree. Just horrible, like, horrible human being, horrible human rights and all of that. And I would, and we have to remove him or he's got to be removed from power. And then I say that the uncomfortable question, what next? Right. Then what? Right. So now we get to see what next. And anyone who knows who spent a second in that part of the world knows what comes next.

Right. Consolidation. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, either consolidation like you say or we get like another Yugoslavia like with Tito, you know, like these dictators are dictators. And they're, again, nobody's. Syria's already there. Yeah.

Nobody's arguing that they aren't horrible human beings. but they're also stabilizing elements in those areas. Yes, and I think that it's very hard because it's not black and white. Right. There's a thousand shades of gray here, and there's no easy way to say, well, then what should happen? Well, actually, it's really hard to know, like, what should happen because, again, when you've got a dictatorship, like, with the Assad family, that was in power for 55 years. Right. What you have is a vacuum of power.

So just like the debatification in Iraq, you take down all these organs of government and what's going to fill it. It's probably going to be the most extreme elements of these various ideologies and these various splinter groups. So you have all of these Syrian oppositionists who were all against Bashar, but do you think they're all going to like to work together now building this new nation? Are you kidding me? Absolutely not. Yeah, I don't expect particularly good things from Syria. I, sorry. No, please, go ahead.

I am concerned that Syria is going to become, or parts of Syria are going to become an island of extremist support that will threaten surrounding Arab countries. And the reason why I say that is within a week or two of Julani taking control of the government, he welcomed an Egyptian terrorist who has already been, there's been a court case against him in Egypt for assassinating a minister of justice several years ago. So he is one of those responsible for this assassination, a very, very extreme ideologue and extreme terrorist. He was being shaking hands with Jalani, welcoming him into Syria. and Jolini said, we're going to be giving all these fighters Syrian nationality. Right. So now these extremists elements from Egypt and wherever else have a safe place to come.

And then just a couple days ago, you had this Egyptian all over social media from Syria saying, we're coming next for you, LCC, who is the leader, the president of Egypt. The new axis of evil. Yeah. How do you think, do you think that one of the reasons in the U.S. falls for the i mean are we still high on our supply from war two with germany with japan and like these successful regime changes turning like why do you think we still like believe that things are always just going to turn up roses always believing for the best always assuming the best i don't know

maybe it's just an american view of the world that we really got to shake that notion and i think that a huge part of that is like traveling abroad and seeing how it actually works in the rest of the world. Yeah. Michelle, tell us where people can go to find you and find your books. Oh, yes. So I have a website at Michelle Rigbyassad.com. If you can't remember that, if you just put in Michelle and CIA, it's probably going to pop up there. There will be a link down the description of this podcast. And so I have two books. One is my memoir, Breaking Cover, My Secret Life in the CIA and what it taught me about what's worth fighting for. And then my new book, which amazingly drops tomorrow,

is Get Off the X, CIA Secrets for Conquering Obstacles and Achieving Your Life's Mission. Awesome. That's fantastic. You can learn all about them on my website. So you have links to order from our website or wherever you normally order books. We have two questions here. I don't know if we have any on Patreon. M. Corbyn, thank you much.

Why does sarcasm not translate over into Arabic? Oh my gosh, that's a good question. I'm not to have to ask Joseph that. I'm sure he's got a good explanation. I just think their Arabs are very earnest and pretty straightforward with their with their lingo and how they speak. So maybe that's why. And you know, I think it's different too in whatever country like Egyptians are really funny people like very humorous. So they love jokes. They love being clever. So something might land. in Egypt that wouldn't land anywhere else. Right. Did you, you know, being that you studied Egyptian Arabic, did you ever get any guff from other Arabs that you spoke with for the gh and everything? Yeah, the Gulf region, the Guff, instead of the cloth, or in Egypt, they just take it out. They make it a glottal stop.

But they know. They're like, yeah, when I say I studied in Egypt, they're like, oh, that's very often. obvious because I speak modern standard Arabic and Egyptian words. Yeah. Yeah. But the great thing is in the Middle East, Egypt has always been the center of their media and movies. They're Hollywood. Yes.

They're Hollywood. So everyone understands Egyptian Arabic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always tried to follow, like, like, guys who would, like, quote Egyptian movies. Because they thought, like, some fish joke was super funny from a movie. And I'm like, I don't get, I don't get. I don't get this at all.

Egyptians rhyme a lot with their jokes too. So if you don't know the original language, you might lose the meaning of the whole joke. Yeah. And Louis Vasquez, thank you very much. I enjoyed reading a breaking cover, and now I'm looking forward to getting off the X. Thank you again, Team House, for another great podcast.

Well, thank you, Michelle, for making it a great podcast. Awesome, guys. And that's great. I appreciate that. What would you say, like, obviously you left, you and your husband left, would you encourage people and especially young women to seek out careers in the CIA? I would, but I would say eyes open. We really need people who have the potential to change things. So if you've got a weak personality, who's going to admit they have a weak personality?

You know, we really need creative thinkers to, we need smart people in the CIA. We need people who have traveled and have a depth of cultural knowledge in another country. Like, we need it desperately. So yes, but eyes open, it's going to be a very hard job. But it's absolutely going to be transformative and life-changing for you. Dee, did we have anything on Patreon? So we will be back on Friday with Asha, who served in military intelligence. And then she had a, I believe, an NSC position at the White House.

So we're excited to have her in studio on Friday. Michelle, anything else for us? Any final thoughts before we get going tonight? No, I'm just very grateful to be on here. And I just speaking to your audience right now, I'm sure you're followed by a lot of incredible people and very grateful for the service of everyone who's served in the military, law enforcement,

intelligence. It's really important work. And now what's great is we can use that on the outside, as you guys are doing. to educate, inspire, and help others. Get Off the X is out due tomorrow. That's probably right now for most of you who are listening to this podcast.

So go check it out on your website one more time. Michelle with one out, Riggi Assad. Go check it out, guys. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us on a Monday evening. Awesome. Thank you guys. Thank you. We'll see you guys on Friday.