The Team House - Air Force Combat Controller, 2x Silver Star Recipient | Ismael "Ish" Villegas | Ep. 189

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Ish Villegas was born in Mexico City, and grew up in Del Rio, Texas. He enlisted in the U.S. Air Force on August 6, 1997, and he completed basic training at Lackland AFB, Texas, in October 1997. Airman Villegas then attended Combat Control Team training at Lackland AFB (Combat Control Orientation Course); Keesler AFB, Mississippi (Combat Control Operator Course); Fort Benning, Georgia (U.S. Army Airborne School); Fairchild AFB, Washington (U.S. Air Force Basic Survival School); Pope AFB, North Carolina (Combat Control School); Hurlburt Field, Florida (Special Tactics Advanced Skills Training); Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and Yuma Proving Grounds, Arizona (U.S. Army Military Freefall Parachutist School); and Panama City, Florida (U.S. Air Force Combat Divers School) between October 1997 and September 1999. Sgt Villegas served as a Special Tactics Operator, Combat Control Team member with the 21st Special Tactics Squadron of the 720th Special Tactics Group at Pope AFB, North Carolina, from September 1999 to March 2004, and then as a Combat Control Team member with the 321st Special Tactics Squadron of the 352nd Operations Group at RAF Mildenhall, England, from March 2004 to November 2010. His next assignment was as a Combat Control Team member back with the 21st Special Tactics Squadron at Pope AFB from November 2010 to August 2011. SMSgt Villegas served as a Special Operations Recruiting Liaison at Lackland AFB, Texas, from 2011 to 2014, and then served as NCOIC of Assessments and Selections with the Special Tactics Training Squadron at Hurlburt Field, Florida, from 2014 to 2017. His final assignment with the Special Operations Command Care Coalition at JBSA Fort Sam Houston, Texas, from 2017 until his retirement from the Air Force on May 1, 2020. Today's Sponsors: Groove Life https://GROOVELIFE.com/TEAMHOUSE It's time to bring your wallet & belt game into the 21st century. Head to https://GROOVELIFE.com/TEAMHOUSE for 20% off ALL Groovelife products! Battling Blades For 20% off your Battling Blades order, go to https://BATTLINGBLADES.com and enter code "TeamHouse" at checkout. Learn the way of the blade at https://BATTLINGBLADES.com and get 20% off with the promo code "TeamHouse" at checkout! Thank you for supporting the companies that support the show ! To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: ⬇️ https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️  https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️  https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [e-mail] #combatcontroller #specialoperations #theteamhouseBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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and David Park. All right, guys, take three. Episode 189. I'm Jack, Dave's here. Dee's back there. Ismail, Ish, Vyghus is our guest today. This is going to be a recorded episode because we have some weather coming through New York

and it's killing our internet. So, adapt and overcome. Ish, let's just jump right into it, man. If you could just tell us sort of, what was your path into the Air Force? All right. Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

talking to you guys and being the first combat controller. Thank you for your patience. Dude, no worries. I couldn't get my mic started, so you know, you guys put up with me first. But anyway, yeah, I grew up in Mexico, or I was born in Mexico City. And so I spent a lot of time down there, you know, even after my parents immigrated to the U.S. I was pretty young. But I would spend all my summers down there, and I'd always watch.

The soldiers come down from the mountains, and, you know, they all had guns. And, you know, I mean, I knew they were a conventional army, but and my grandfather hosted them all the time. So, you know, I'd hear their stories and whatnot and who they were hunting. So that kind of started getting me interested in, you know, kind of military service, not obviously not on the Mexico side, but having come to America and, you know, having lived extremely poor when we were in Mexico. and having the opportunity, you know, it's, it was something that I wanted to do for my country. I wanted to do a service because even growing up poor here in America, like, I mean, you truly don't know how great this country is, you know, unless you've actually lived in a third rural country, you know, and I had that experience. I knew what I had, and I knew how blessed I was. So I wanted to give something back, you know.

And my entire growing up, my entire childhood, I knew that I wanted to join the military. I wanted to do special ops specifically. I grew up watching, you know, shows like Tour Duty and, you know, Charlie Sheen's Navy Seals and all that stuff, like, you know, just badass movies. And so that's something that always piqued my interest. And so when I first started looking during high school, I kind of started looking at the Navy. I started looking at the Army and the Marine Corps, like, you know, take three. The Marine Corps, it never really interested me. You know, my buddies kept coming back and said, hey, man, you know, you don't want to do it.

Just go a different route. And I was like, all right. You know, so I went to talk to the Navy recruiter. and they weren't taking guys right out of basic training. You know, my thought process was like, I don't want to be on a boat for two years. That's all I knew about the Navy. It was a boat, you know.

And the Army didn't have the X-ray program at the time. I was like, man, I don't want to go into the regular Army. And, you know, who knows what's going to happen then. So I was pretty bummed out. I was depressed. And, you know, I just walked out of his office. And I got greeted by the Air Force. recruiter next door down and he looked at me and he's like hey man but you know what's up you know

you look a little bummed I'm like yeah man I am you know it's like I I wanted to join these services and here's why and he's like well hey have you thought about joining the Air Force and I'm like man you guys have nothing for me you know at the time I had no idea that they were the Air Force actually had you know a couple soft units PJ and CCTV and you know PJs read a lot of books so everybody knows about PJs. And they were great. You know, Vietnam, they were instrumental, saving lives all the time. So he brings me in and he's like, yeah, man, here's a pamphlet.

They didn't know much about the job at the time. And he's like, yeah, these guys, you know, they get to work with the seals. They get to work with the green berets. You get to work with all kinds of soft forces. And, you know, you get all the cool toys that these guys do. and you get, you know, you shoot, move and communicate. And I'm like, awesome. I'm like, my first question was, can you join right out of basic training?

And he said, yeah, absolutely. You know, so I signed up six months prior. I was finishing up summer school, so I graduate on time. And I came in shortly thereafter. I enlisted before, you know, the delayed entry program. And I came in to basic training, August 6, 1986. And that was my path into the Air Force. So what was the pipeline like to become a CCT?

Obviously, it was a hell of a lot different back then. And I want to say they dined it the new breed. And that's basically because combat control joined into the pararescue pipeline. So it was PJs and controllers going through together. and, you know, at the time it was kind of sheer luck. I signed a contract for combat control and, you know, they lined us up. And it just so happened that I was chosen as a combat controller. And I don't know how the cadre did it back then, but they're like, you look like a controller.

You're going to be a controller. I'm like, all right, sounds good. That's what I wanted anyway. You know, and so very, very different. It was 10 weeks. And it was basically just a kick in the balls from morning to evening. it was you spent your first half of the day pretty much getting your you know your balls kicked in a lot of push-ups a lot of pull-ups a lot of running and then the other half of your day was spent in

the pool so you know getting basically to the point of exhaustion every single day and the pool was always the great equalizer it didn't matter how strong you were it didn't matter how fast you were. Once everybody got in that pool, everybody was on the same playing field. You know, and that's the place where grown men cry. So, and ultimately, that's

what those guys in is the pool. What was it about the Paral Rescue CCTV selection phase? Why did they focus on the pool so much? Because you associate that with seals, and then later with like Special Forces pre-scuba and things like that.

But why was it so focused on on these Air Force assets? Yeah, I think it's because, obviously, we are Air Force. So when you think of Air Force, you think of, you know, these guys that work behind a desk. You know, you don't really think of soft when you look at the Air Force. And, you know, the PGs have had that selection for a while. But I've never actually inquired about it. But, you know, I think the thought process behind it is we are going to work with the SEALs.

And we are going to work with the green berets and we have to have that ability. We have to have that same mental fortitude that these guys have if we're going to be successful. So, you know, it's kind of the thought process where we have to do our job and we also have to be able to do, you know, the same things that our soft brethren can do as well. So, and it's a huge gut check as well. You know, it, if you can't handle the pool, you're probably looking for a different job. The pool is the place where it either makes you or it breaks you. I was just going to ask, for anybody listening to this who's thinking about going in for a PJ or CCT, you know, a young adult who's looking at those as career fields, what, how do they get ready for something like that? Because you obviously didn't, it doesn't sound like you were,

you spent a long time preparing for that prior to going in. No, man, I actually did very little preparation. You know, I joined a gym. I started swimming in the lake of all places, you know, which is not the place to start. So if you're listening, don't do what I did, you know, do safe swimming in a pool. let the lifeguard know what you're trying to do.

They usually get you, they let you get away with a little bit more. But I had no idea. You know, I was 130 pounds soaking wet, and I actually think I was 128 pounds coming in. But, you know, I had no idea how to work out. I had no idea the physical fitness, you know, what level of condition your body actually has to be in. It's changed a little bit, but the concept is still very much the same. It's all about endurance. And it really is pushing your body to whatever the pass test is at the time, but you still keep pushing it.

You know, like when I used to do the recruiting job, I teach guys, like, man, pass the pass test. And you should be able to take it at least two more times and still pass it, you know. once you know you can pass the pass test, like start working your body beyond its limits. And, you know, yeah, it's a lot of calisthenics, but at the same time, you know, it's, you have to condition your body all around. So you have to be well-rounded. You know, it's not just legs. It's not just chest, you know, and you have to have the speed. You have to have the power.

You have to have the endurance. And start surpassing those limits that are set by the past. passed us. But now that, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just to say, what about the mental asthma? Because you went in not well prepped, 128 pounds, maybe 130 if we're going to, you know, give you the benefit of the doubt.

And you saw guys quit all around you. I imagine you had a high, you know, a high attrition rate in your class. What was it about you mentally going through that course that set you apart from other people? You know, that's one of the things that we, that I wish we had a magic formula for because I couldn't tell you how, you know, how to, I can't tell you what guy's going to make it. I can't tell you what guy's going to fail.

You know, I, like I have seen Olympians, guys that I could not physically smoke, just phenomenal athletes. And for whatever reason, they end up quitting. you know and then i've also seen on the other spectrum is guys that you know like myself who haven't worked out a lot um are hurting the entire way we're lagging behind but they don't quit you know and i think it's heart is one of the one of the biggest indicators like kids who have heart like i mean i'm telling you they it's something about them that they just continue to go like me and myself, you know, when I was going through, yeah, I thought about quitting every day.

But my thought process at the time was like, I am not going to quit. They're going to have to take me out of here in a body bag, you know, or whatever the case, or they're going to have to force me to quit, but I'm not, I'm not quitting. You know, for me, I used my mother a lot. Every time I felt sorry for myself, every time I, you know, I was like, man, I can make the pain go away. is I thought about my mother. You know, obviously she brought us to America and we were extremely poor. And I was like, man, I'm doing it for her.

I'm doing it because, you know, the trials and tribulations that she went through getting us here, you know, the sacrifices that she made, housing us, feeding us, you know, working. And in the back of my mind, I wasn't going to give up because I wasn't going to let her down, you know. And I think it's just digging really deep and having that mental fortitude. And, you know, like I said, it's hard to determine who actually has it. But it's like you have to have that mindset of like, I will make it. You know, and let them eliminate you. Don't get it in your head that you're going to quit. Because as soon as you start thinking it, it just makes it easier and easier to basically just want to give up, you know.

What was the next step in the pipeline after selection? So once you, we graduated selection, which was basically preparing us for dive school. At the time, it was the Army Dive School, Special Forces Underwater Operations. So Key West, which, I mean, that in and of itself was one of the biggest gut checks, you know, beyond our selection. I mean, it was the selection. And, I mean, it really humbled you. And so everyone had to make it through dive school. I imagine they front-loaded it for that reason because it was so difficult to see who could, you know, make it through that next phase, that next check.

And then what was after dive school? It all kind of varied depending on the scheduling that we had the dunker, the helicopter, rolls you over in the pool and you got to escape it. And then after that was a static line school and then Halo School shortly after that. Then we went out to air traffic control school because we are also certified air traffic controllers. And ATC is our primary emission set. It is what we start as. You know, we jump in with the Rangers.

We set up the airfields. we bring in the aircraft, helo's fixed wing, and all the follow-on forces. And then we jump in with whatever forces are coming in. And we go out and work and, you know, start doing the close air support business. How long is air traffic control school? Air traffic control school is about three months long. But it's, you know, it's a different kind of hard in it of itself because, you know, ATC, you're basically learning a different language.

And it's very intense, too, because now you've got aircraft, you know, in the sky. So it's like the last thing you want is, you know, metal on metal because you can't separate, you know, the two. So, I mean, it's a pretty intense. It's mentally intense. I mean, it's still physically intense because you're still having to maintain your physical fitness. You're still getting smoked by the instructors. You're still having to do pretty much a lot of the same. stuff that you did at the initial endoc, the selection course.

Maybe this would be a good point, ish, actually. If you could explain the difference between combat controllers and joint terminal attack controllers and some of those other elements out there, like what is the CCT job? So yeah, CCTV, we are basically, our primary mission set is air traffic control. We do it in an austere environment. So that's our bread and butter. We also do, you know, we're surveyors, dirt landing strips, jump, drop zones, helicopter landing zones, and, you know, forward air refueling points.

But along the way, we were asked, back when I came through about 10% of the force was J-TAC qualified. And a lot of it was, you know, hey, you sound really great on the mic. you can control aircraft really well. Do you want to try this? And that's kind of how I got started in the whole J-TAC world. So for us, J-TAC is an additional certification. You know, combat controllers by nature are all not joint terminal attack controllers, but, you know, we're flexible.

And 9-11 is kind of what led us to really hone our skills as far as joint-terminal attack controllers. And, you know, now I think we're doing a little bit of downsizing on that. But, you know, we also have TACPs. And that's a whole separate career field, which, you know, we kind of brought a few of them into the special operations community. And so I think it's about 10% of their force is the soft TACP. But a lot of what they do is, you know, the big army. They do close air support for battalion. you know, the big maneuver elements, they do a lot of the air tasking orders,

allocating assets to the guys that are downrange in their, you know, air spaces. So they deal a lot more with the whole conventional process versus us. You know, we get our own designated airspace. They send us our aircraft and we're just responsible for that. Tack B, send them to us. So, I mean, those guys go out as well. and, you know, they control our traffic, but they are the subject matter experts at the entire J-Tech process. We are experts in it, but we do it in a more unconventional role.

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SCA or whatever. So that's battlingblades.com and if you use the promo code team house, you get 20% off your water. So again, battlingblades.com and use the promo code team house. Yeah. So one of the things that I remember, you know, like one thing, like, so I was in Radio Battalion in the late 90s and we had a tack P that was there, you know, that was assigned to us that was always there. And then the CCTVs, if we were doing like an airfield seizure,

you know, for training or something like that, that's when the CCTV would show up on their badass little mini bikes and things like that. And I don't know how it was when you were there, Jack, if the CCTVs were more attached to you at that point in time. I remember we had like every, I mean, I remember JTACs. I remember TACs. I remember TACPs. I mean, it probably just, everyone was so busy. It probably just depended from deployment to deployment. But the thing that really separates the CCT is that in addition to the close air support,

you guys also bring that airhead responsibility where, like you said, surveying an airfield, bringing like being an air traffic controller when there's no tower, when there's no radar, but you're bringing

in ground troops and you're bringing in supplies. Just to bring in all that stuff. Further paint the picture a little bit. Like when Ranger Battalion jumps into some remote airfield somewhere. There's a guy like ish sitting there with his rucksack with like a radio mic in each hand, like actually acting as the air traffic control tower for all of these C-17s and C-130s who are coming in and to land. I mean, it's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think that's really where we made our money right there, you know, where we kind of established a lot of our credibility is we, you know, the way I describe it to kids is like, man, we do anything air to ground. or ground to air. You know, we have that capability, you know, and then on top of it, we can also shoot. We, you know, we can hang with you guys because you guys bring a very unique special skill set to it.

We're very adaptable. And, you know, I guess that's the soft community in general. I think that's what makes us pretty special. One of the things I've always been amazed about about CCTs, JTACs, TACPs, is when they're, like, when the fight is really heavy and it's just like the world is coming down on you and you hear squad leaders

and team leaders on the radio like you know you know contact left you know blah blah blah the the CCTV guys will sit there with like three different three different mics or three different mics and just be calm as

you know like cool as a cucumber is that something that like how does it happen Is it, is it like, is that selected for you guys who just cannot maintain their sense of like, you know, being? Is it something you learn? Like, how does that happen? No. So, you know, my entire career, I've kind of had to learn things on the fly.

So I was taught a certain way. And back then it was a lot of static O.P. cast, you know, and then, you know, that's all. I knew how to do it. 9-11 kicks off. And so now I'm with the teams, and I'm shooting, moving. You know, I'm in a Humvee. I'm walking around.

You know, we're in a gunfight. You know, we're no longer static. And I'll tell you what, my first gunfight, I was like a chicken with my head cut off. Man, I was all over the place. And, you know, my team sergeant, he was a third group guy at the time. I mean, he reaches over, grabs my shoulder. He looks to me square in the eye, you know, and he was squaring. cool, calm, and collect, and he's like,

ish, calm down in the middle of a gunfight, you know, and I was like, oh shit, okay, yeah, I got it. You know, so, you know, I kind of turned everything else off and I started focusing on what I needed to do. And, you know, that deployment taught

me a lot. And I'm like, man, we have to change the way we train our guys. You know, so when we came back, we started implementing, you know, now, so now I'm kind of getting more as, you know, as the seasoned guy. And we started coming back and saying, hey, we need to adjust our entire mindset,

our entire way of training. And we really got to set our guys up for success. You know, and I took over the fire shop shortly after in my career. And I started training guys. And I remember, you know, when I first started, you know, it's like we had guys that would just stand up, you know, bullets flying and whatnot. And that's the way we trained. We never were taught to move.

So I started taking chunks of rock and, you know, I throw it at the guys and, you know, they're like, hey, what are you doing? I'm like, hey, man, that's, that's a, that's a bullet coming at you. You got to take cover. So it's like I started chunking bigger rocks at them if they didn't get it. And they learned pretty quick, you know, and it eventually got to the point where, you know, I would take a guy and, and this is through, you know, baby step process. towards the end of it, I'm sitting there yelling in his face.

I'm shooting right by his head. You know, I'm asking him questions. I'm trying to throw him off his game. And he's taking cover. Now he's returning fire. He's still talking to the aircraft. He's got multiple radios going on at the same time. And by the time I was done with the guy, he was literally cool, calm and collecting.

And it didn't matter what was going on. He did everything the way he was supposed to direct air, return fire. stay calm and also return fire and at the same time able to multitask and you know control three or four radios at the same time it's so it's incredible i mean really if if you're one of the people responsible that like it really is incredible because a firefight as everybody you know anybody who's been in one is is pure chaos to begin with and for somebody calling in air assets then are moving generally super fast at a specific vector and to have a general lay of the land. But it's not like you're in a talk.

It's not like you're in a fixed position where you can say, you look at a map and go, here's the enemy, here are I got, like, everything is happening so fast. And I've always been so impressed by those guys that could just keep their cool in those time. And, you know, pilots, pilots are always like, even if they're, not from the South. They talk like they're from the South. Roger, you know, you know what I mean? It's like they always have that languid kind of, you know,

they're not excited. They're like they're professionals, they're, you know, keeping control of it. And to have somebody to be able to respond to that when everybody else is yelling and everything is just incredible to me. Yeah. Oh man, I'll tell you something real quick. Like, one of my

counterparts is, you know, I won't say it's that same, but his name is Brock. So in O-3, I relieved him out at, uh, oh, was it 03? Anyway, all the timelines kind of blend together, but he was out at Camp Tillman at the time. And I, you know, we were talking about certain things. And, you know, he came out. And he's like, man, you know, I was in this gunfight and I was so calm.

You know, it's like the guy didn't believe that I was in a gunfight, you know. And so I took a break and I keyed the mic up next to the 50, Cal, you know. And, you know, he's like, oh, okay, you guys are in a gun fight. It's like, yeah, man. You know, so it's like a lot of times these guys are so calm that it's almost hard to believe that they're in a gunfight, you know. Yeah. And it's amazing because, you know, we talk about like, you know, in combat, target identification, things like that. And reacting responsibly or, you know, reacting in a responsive fashion.

And in a, you know, nebulous environment, you can kill an innocent. You can kill a civilian. and you, you know, like, things can happen because you're just, like, on the go and whatnot, and you're making split-second decisions. And for somebody, like, with the power of a CCTV, that has way bigger ramifications to not maintain that calm and to, you know, to just pull that trigger before you know where the target is and identify it, right? Yeah.

I mean, battle tracking is huge. Obviously, you know, like I work hand at hand with the captain, the team leader. You know, it's like, you know, if I screw up, he's going to jail. You know, and I'm not going to let him go to jail. And none of our guys want that. So, I mean, we're constantly on it, head on a swivel. We know where guys are at all the time. For me, I'm not dropping them unless I know.

know for a fact that that is the enemy and you know through either aircraft identification visual confirmation or you know I even take it as far as having my grids check by either one party or a second party you know because that is the last thing I want to do but I mean and it's chaotic you know it is extremely chaotic but you know I mean you know I got 10 aircraft in the set 10 sets of aircraft in the sack you know you each one to flight it to, I got artillery going. I'm tracking the guys that are shooting and moving. I'm talking to the captain.

I'm relaying information to the soda. You know, it's insane what goes on. And for some reason, it's like, you know, we're all trained to track all this. I mean, heck, now I, you know, I can't tell you what I did yesterday or an hour. But it's like, you know, as soon as the gunfighting starts, like, as soon as the stress levels up, like, it's just something snaps, you know, and a lot of it goes back down to how you train and obviously experience. It's incredible to me.

I mean, I have the, you know, you talk, you talk about going to summer school, you know, and whatnot, but obviously you were a very bright guy because that's not a job, or even air traffic control. That's not a job that, you know, you. Most people, even smart people, can do effectively. Oh, yeah, man. Like, you really have to think in a 3D realm. Like, you know, it's funny, I actually took a test a while back.

You know, it was the IQ test. And my results were is that, you know, my IQ was a little bit of above average. But what really set me apart is my ability. And I don't know if it's everybody. And I don't know if everybody's had these tests. And I wish they would administer to all of them. But my 3D perception was through the roof. And it just so happened that, you know, I have to be able to visualize things in a 3D world,

especially dealing with air traffic control, artillery, bombs coming, you know. Like it got to the point throughout my career is I could point in the direction where there was an aircraft coming. it's like I could almost visualize the bombs flying through the air. I could visualize that aircraft flying through the air. I could visualize where the enemy was. I could visualize where my team was at all times. It's a really surreal feeling. But yeah, you know, I consider myself a knuckle-dragger,

but I think, you know, having that ability is what, you know, kind of made me successful. And, you know, I think all of us in the soft community have, you know, something of that nature. Otherwise, you know, honestly, I don't think we would be as successful as we are within these soft realms because you really, it doesn't matter what job you're doing. You have to be able to multitask. You have to be able to take on all these things. And, you know, in a gunfight, in life and death situations. Right. Right.

That's what sets us apart. Ish. Can you take us through this deployment? You said 2009 and 2010. You had a pretty eventful one. Yeah. In 2009, I taking a little break for, well, not necessarily break. It's just, you know, I hadn't deployed for a couple of years.

So in 2009, or prior to 2009, I was like, I better get a good deployment. I want to go to the hottest place. I want to go to, you know, I miss the action. So my senior enlisted leader, E9, you know, Chief Master, and at the time, he was like, yeah, I'll send you wherever you want to go. And, you know, I was like, all right, just I don't care where I go. Just send me to the hottest place. And, you know, my buddy had gotten blown up a month before.

So I got recalled. So, hey, get ready to go. All my bags were packed. Luckily, he didn't sustain major injuries. He had a nice TBI. Captain John Tinsley was killed, though, on that deployment, they hit an IED, everybody else was wounded, not severely, but Tinsley unfortunately took the brunt of it. And so I deployed, and I mean, you know, as soon as I got there,

I got a month orientation and it was totally on. You know, I was kind of developing courses of action as to how to get rid of Tinsley's truck, which was still up on the hill. And obviously, the rules of engagement were a hell of a lot different, you know, back then, especially during that time where we moved kind of towards the peacekeeping, you know, type of a mission. So, so we went up there and our plan was to see for it and try to get rid of it because it was kind of a trophy for the Taliban at the time, you know. And so we went up there and, I mean, the locals stopped us. So like, hey, they got this place. completely lined with IEDs. Like you guys shouldn't go up there and we're yeah, okay, we got it. Thank you. We kind of assumed it. We were grateful for the warning.

You know, so immediately as soon as we were moving up, we found you know, eight, nine IEDs right off the bat. So, you know, we're just sitting there marking them. Too many to take care of right at that instant. My team had, half my team had cleared the village behind us.

Half my team was mounted. You know, pulling security, me, the Bravo and the Charlie decided to push forward looking for more IDs. You know, we're not wasting time. We need to find these creative path forward to Tinsley's truck. And as we were going along, I mean, we found number 10. We found number 11. We found number 12.

We found number third. I mean, it was the whole place was a minefield. You know, I mean, they knew we were going to come back for that truck eventually. So my captain called. me up and he's looking for me, you know, and he wants me back where he's at near the village. And I'm like, hey, sir, I got a vanish point of the entire terrain. I can see everything. I can do my job from anywhere.

You know, and he's like, all right, cool. And as soon as I turned around, man, this IED just blew up in front of us. And, you know, I, like, I thought we were all hit. You know, I, first thing I, I thought I was dead. You know, I thought my guys were dead. I mean, it was about 15 to 20 feet in front of us. And, I mean, he was just black soot and everything, you know. And really it was kind of time stood still at that moment.

And so, you know, after the Pucker Factor wears off, you know, it's like you start realizing, oh, shit, I'm alive. You know, you start checking the junk, start checking everything else, making sure everything is still in place. You know, checking on your buddies. And, you know, I'm, you know, at that point, I'm getting lit up. and I'm not, you know, I'm still in shock, you know, but I'm starting to realize like, oh, shit, I'm out in the open. It's only a matter of time before I get hit, you know,

so, you know, diving for cover and calling in artillery and starting to try to get the advantage on them, you know. They had a step to rights from that hill, but thank God that they always shoot from the hip. Like I'm, like that is the only thing. thing that saved our lives is, I mean, had they actually taken the time to aim, like, I mean, we'd have been gone. I wouldn't be here today, you know, neither would they. But yeah, I mean, it, you know, obviously we got the advantage. I started dropping artillery. We ended up getting 64,

started swacking dudes, 8-10s came along, you know, started, they ended up taking cover. They they took cover in a in a cave and the Apaches which were the what were they the uh not Danish anyway one of those countries probably the Dutch yeah the Dutch started calling it calling it in helping me identify it you know they started marking for the A10s and man the A10s started dropping bombs on it that collapsed the entire cave complex there was about 32 guys in there We started mowing down all the little, the drainage canals that they used for cover. And, I mean, it was just game on. You know, the rest of the crew started coming up next to us, clearing as the, you know, clearing up to our position.

We're completely out of ammo, you know. But we got the advantage and we continued to press forward past our edge of our white space, so to speak. So, you know, we kind of gained ground on that mission. And I mean, it was just one thing after the other. And, uh, I mean, you know, it, it happens so slowly, but at the same time, it was like, it was like an eternity. You know, I'm, I'm sure you guys can attest to that. It's like, it's crazy how fast it happens, but it's also crazy how slow it feels, you know, and, um, 18 hours later or 16 hours later, we're done with a gunfight, you know, heading back home. And I mean, that's how my deployment.

to Firebase Cobra started, you know, and I mean, after that, it was just gunfight after gunfight. We got in at least one good gunfight a week. You know, I think it was like 16 major gunfights. And I can't remember how many total, but it was the hottest place on the planet at the time. we lost one guy a week, if not two, on certain, you know, weeks. And, you know, I'm talking about KIA. We're not talking about just wounded, you know. Wounded, I couldn't even tell you how many we actually took.

But so I did nine months at that location. Wow. You know. Oh, and on top of it, I broke both my arms and my wrist on that initial contact. You know, when I was getting shot at, I took it. dive and I ended up blocking my fall like I'm literally flying Hollywood style through the air you know and I blocked my fall with my hands and so I ended up with two broken arms and then later on the next year I ended up with a broken ankle and I have you know I still have no idea how the heck I

managed it so so I just want to slow down for a second are you're saying that in the initial salvo, or during that, you broke your arms. And then did you continue to operate radios and call in air support with broken arm, with two broken arms? Oh, man, yeah. I mean, you know the adrenaline. You know, adrenaline is kicking. And I remember as soon as I hit the ground, I was like, man, this is, I hit pretty hard, you know.

And you're not really thinking about it, you know. But I felt that burn. I mean, it was just an intense burn in my right elbow. What happened was, you know, the ulna and the radio bones ended up crushing into the, what is it, the humorous or whatever that. Yeah, the humorous. So it crushed them together, you know, and so I felt the burn immediately. And I remember it hurting picking up my gun when I got into position. I started returning fire.

My left hand hurt, but not quite as much as the right. So, you know, I really didn't think twice about it. And we kept fighting, calling it. You know, I kept calling in CAST and all that. And, you know, I remember when 16 hours later, when we finally, it's like, hey, let's get out of here. Let's return to base because we're out of ammo. And by the way, we're freaking tired. And the fighting's done, right?

The adrenaline finally wore out. And I couldn't even pick up my rifle. And I was like, man, this hurts, you know. And I just wrapped it with an ace bandage. And it's just we kept going, you know, take a little bit of Motrin. Right. Vitamin M. A vitamin M.

That's right. That's right. That is crazy. I, it just is baffling to the imagination that you had two broken arms and a broken And you are You're raising these Mike. You're calling an air. You're fighting. You're operating your rifle.

It's just so bizarre and amazing. And I know that you're like, oh, you know, like, I don't know. I don't think my, you know, I don't think much about my awards, but when I hear other people's awards, is sort of, I always

think back to that Groucho Mark. comment that I would never be a member of a club that would have me as a member, that you never think of yourself as the guy. Was this the action that you were awarded a Silver Star for? Yeah, it was that gunfight in particular. Yeah, I wonder why. Yeah, I mean, dude, honestly to me, you know, I look at these things and it's like, man, it was, you know, another day. It's, you know, what we train for. It's, you know, it doesn't feel as significant.

At the time. Yeah. Right. I mean, even now, I look at it and it's like, man, I was doing my job. But, you know, I look at some of the guys that I've trained, you know, I look at my buddies that I know. And it's like, you know, Air Force Cross recipients, you know, and I'm like, man, that is, wow. You know, I'm like, at all, I'm like, God, I wish I would have had a mission like that. You know, and then I look at other Silver Star recipients and I'm like, dude, his shit is way better than mine. I'm like, wow, you know, and it's, to me, it's business as usual.

It's like, yeah, so I did this. So, you know, I got in a gunfight. Yeah, they shot at us. We shot back. We won. I'm like, I broke both my arms and continued to operate for 16 hours, you know, that it was just, it was just the job, you know. Yeah. I'm like a teacher.

a hero, well, just like teachers. And so that, uh, it sounds like that deployment was pretty intense. I mean, how did, how did things, you know, go on as you kind of got deeper into that? What did you say? It was nine months that you were over there. Oh, man, it was, uh, it was one thing after the other, you know, and, um, we kept on, uh, continuing our fights, continuing to push on. Um, there was, uh, uh, a few other incidents that occurred, you know, uh, as they do. You may have heard about the minibus incident where McChrystal apologized. And who was the president of Obama, I think? Everybody came out and apologized.

And it's like, no, they were bad guys. You know, we killed bad guys. But because the third vehicle was carrying not bad guys, let's just put it that way, you know, they kind of started, you know, putting. the kibosh on us. They kind of started restricting the amount of ordinance that we could drop, you know, the, basically our freedom of movement, you know. I mean, we've still

gotten, we've gotten a lot of gunfights, you know, and halfway through it, I was, my team was replaced by a first group team, you know, and don't get me wrong, that seventh group team was amazing. I mean, all these guys are professionals. They were, they were awesome. The entire however many gun fights we were in.

First group came in and, you know, it started up again. I mean, we were, those guys having no experience, we're quick to learn. A lot of firefights involving, you know, we're chasing after them. They're coming after us. It's like we're flanking them. They're trying to flank us. And I mean, the whole deployment, it was, you know, just intermittent gun battles every single, you know, a couple of days at a minimum

once a week for the entire nine months. I mean, it's just, uh, it was like the wild, wild west. Yeah. And the Taliban, you know, you talk about the minibus thing. And I, I don't remember that. But one thing that I do know is that Taliban was great at PR. And they understood, they understood how our government would respond any time they waged a PR campaign and said that, you know, innocents were killed. And

unfortunately, sometimes innocents were killed, but a lot of times it was just a Taliban-led effort where they could say, American forces just came in and did this thing. And then whomever was the president or whatever would like stop. They would just stop dead.

You know, the action that's on. And then it would inhibit everybody's ability to fight. Oh, yeah. I mean, they know. They know. Even when they're moving, you know, they'll position women. They'll position kids.

They'll ride with women and kids, you know. And so if something does happen, if they do get hit, it's like, it's a political campaign that they run. Right. And they know it's going to make headlines. And, you know, the American population is oblivious to it. They have no concept of what's going on. And, you know, they buy into it all the time. Our politicians don't have a nut sack, for lack of a better word, you know, to kind of come out and say, hey, this is how they roll.

These are their tactics, techniques and procedures. And a lot of times it seemed as though our media would uncritically just accept their claims and reported as fact, right? That there was no actual investigation into it. It was the same thing that we talked about with the Marine Raiders, right? or the Marsock, and it almost got them disbanded. But in that case, it was the military itself that was...

Right, right. So, you know, you, going back to the first firefight, did you guys have air on station at the time, or did you have to wait for it? No, I try to coordinate rotary wing beforehand. You know, I always do.

I always have them come in about, you know, a couple of hours. after we've departed to kind of to keep that element of surprise. But we had none at the time. You know, we went in there totally not expecting a gunfight. You know, expecting IADs, yeah, but we'd not expect a gunfight. But, man, you know, there was, you know, cast flying overhead, just different regions. But the heels were the first to respond.

we had organic artillery at our fire base and that was kind of at their limit, you know. Yeah. Anything outside of that would have required a wraparound or something. But no, the Dutch responded immediately. And then, you know, again, I don't, you know, at the time, I don't know. I don't have a sense of time. But the A10 showed up and then it was just rocking and rolling from there. So this is something I don't think we've ever.

talked about on our show. Can you tell people sort of the difference between like what fixed wing is, what rotary wing is, and then what dedicated assets are versus like being out there and having and waiting on assets? Yeah. So fixed wing is, you know, any kind of a closer support platform that, you know, like an airplane type, you know, like a fixed wing is just, you know, bombers, a, a gunships, fighter jets, you know. And then the rotary going is anything helicopter, anything with rotors, then you have cast, you have on-call cast, which basically if you get in the predicament,

if you, you know, make contact, either you can prepare and have them ready to send you something or start looking for any kind of error assets, any close air support assets that are within your area that can make it to you. And then you, that's all on call. So basically you have to get in that situation and then you, you know, declare troops in contact and they'll send you those air assets wherever they can pull them from. And then you have your planned air assets. So, you know, I send up those requests and they're already pre-coordinated. I can set up either from the time I depart my Firebase or I can say, hey, we plan to be at this position at, you know, whatever time.

I need you show up at this time. And, you know, a lot of times you don't want to, like me, myself, I didn't want to pre-plan cast because then that steals air support from someone else. but you always have some sort of asset flying around in the event that, you know, something does happen. So then it becomes on call. So when I request, you know, at that particular situation, we got in a gunfight, I requested air assets. They pushed whatever was available to me. And then, you know, behind the scenes, you have to attack peas working additional assets. Like, okay, let's start launching, you know, whoever's on alert.

let's start pulling these assets in case the situation develops even more, which, you know, in our situation it did. Sure. So they're constantly feeding me guys without me having to call them. You know, and then once we're done, once, you know, the fighting's over, it's like, okay, you know, we're constantly sending the information back. And it's like, hey, we haven't taken fire so long or whatever the case is. we're ending the troops in contact right now. So then they start tapering back on those air assets and they either send them back where they are supposed to be or they send them back to whoever originally requested them. But that's the primary difference.

And were you ever? Because I think one of the challenges that people understand sometimes is that, you know, when you're talking about like tier one assets, you know, that. and they have this dedicated error. When you're out there and you don't have like dedicated, have you ever been in situations where, because you had multiple troops in contact or the area of operations was very hot, that it was challenging to get error?

You know, I've never been in that situation, honestly. I think our TACB brethren do an amazing job getting air assets overhead. And, you know, I think the only time I've ever been limited by aircraft is during inclement weather. Obviously, aircraft can't take off. You know, aircraft can't, you know, see you on the ground or whatever. And, you know, I have dropped through the, through weather. But if you can't take off and you can't land and, you know, wherever they're taken off from, really that's my only limiting factor.

Other than that, you know, our brethren, I mean, they do their job and they do it extremely well, you know, because they know it's life and death. And then, you know, next deployment, it could be them, you know. So, yeah, I've never been faced with that situation particularly. So your next deployment was 2011. You said that was your last one and also a little dicey. Yeah, so my, that deployment. appointed in 2000, June of 2010. And, you know, I mean, I wanted to go back shortly thereafter.

So I came home, rested for a little bit, refitted. And I went back in January of 2011. And this time was out by a Taryn Cow. So I only did two missions. And, you know, the first mission was two weeks after arriving in country. And man, that was a week-long gun fight. As soon as we got, you know, in the bad guy territory, spotted a couple guys laying IEDs. We chased them down, tried to shoot them, you know, obviously we didn't catch them. Found the IED. Kind of started following them in the direction

that they were driving. End up in a cemetery. And I mean, we just fought it out close L. ambush, you know, and it was fun. You know, this is what my, uh, what is it, 10th deployment. So it was like,

I mean, at that point it just starts getting fun after a while. You know, it's still scary as shit. Don't get me wrong. Sure. But it, you know,

it's like you find a lot of, uh, enjoyment in it. You know, and, uh, we ended up holding up at, at,

uh, at our strong point area, you know, fighting through a cemetery, dropping bombs. And I mean, it was having to call guys out another team to come out and essentially draw fire so that we can get out of there, you know, and hopefully survive, you know. But yeah, and then two weeks later, we turned around and, you know,

they're like, hey, we need you guys to go back into the same area. So, you know, two weeks later, we turn around and, you know, went we went in through a different direction, you know, and I mean, it turned out to be a 21-day running gun battle, like literally

a running gun battle. And, you know, it's like you plan for something, but I don't think I've ever executed a plan and it go according to plan my entire career. It's like shit changes all the time, right? And so in this 21-day running gun battle, Were you guys, I mean, obviously you guys had to get resupplied.

Like, you run out of ammo after, you know, an hour. What, like, how does this work for you guys? Oh, so, man, we were resupplied three different times in those 21 days. So, obviously, our plan went to crap. So, you know, we were supposed to have two elements. one on the east side, one on the west side. We were supposed to move together and push all the forces out south. And, I mean, we started getting blown up.

We started taking fire. Like, you know, we never really got to even begin to execute the plan as we were planning it. So we decided to strong point of building. And I mean, you know, what was it? Three days into it, we ran out of grenades. We, you know, we were in a grenade war like a trench war. Yeah. It was raining.

It was freezing. It was sleeting. You know, we're fighting in the mud. We're fighting in trenches. We're dropping bombs through the weather. And, I mean, if, you know, for people who don't know what dropping bombs through the weather is, the aircraft can't see you on the ground. They can't see the target. They can't see where you're at.

They're basically dropping on the grid coordinates and trusting you, you know, and I'm trusting. them at the same time. So we're literally, you know, literally fighting and seeing the whites of their eyes. And we run out of ammo. As soon as it clears up, you know, we get a couple of C-130s. They're flying low to the earth. And they're literally, as soon as they get over where I want them to drop, they be line it up. and everything just comes down in four parachutes, four different pallets.

If you don't know what the size of a pallet is, it's, I mean, what is it, roughly a five-by-five, you know, cubed. And it's all full of ammunition. Yeah. So four different pallets, three different resupplies, that's a whole lot of ammo throughout the whole process. So they were, so for people, just to give people an image. So these C-130s, which are propeller airplanes, are flying very close to the ground. And then when they get ready to drop their air bundle, they basically go straight up as they can. So that those bundles essentially drop straight down because they can't control them once they leave the aircraft.

Those shoes can get caught by the wind. Like, they can go anywhere. but they're trying to set them straight down to you guys so you don't have to like fight your way to your ammunition. Absolutely. You know, typically, you know, we drop them at about, you know, five to six hundred feet above ground level. Well, the problem with that is that, you know, the wind could carry them off. They're not always going to land within close proximity. And in situations like that, you literally want them to drop on.

a dime. So as they're coming in, low and fast, you know, I'm telling them exactly where to drop it. And as soon as they get over to that position, they're be lining it up as straight as they can so that it drops in that exact position. And, you know, me and my team don't have to go out there and put ourselves at risk in, you know, pulling these bundles up. You know, it's not like we have equipment to pull them out. You know, it's like a suit. Wherever they land is. We're unpacking them, man. We're taking them into our strong point and then, you know, re-arming ourselves. That's so crazy.

And how did they do? How did those C-130 pilots do? Oh, they were on it. I mean, spot on every single one of the guys. Every single resupply was literally spot on exactly where I wanted it. That's incredible. How did that mission go on as you get, can I, I mean, we're talking about what, three weeks here? What was that like?

I mean, as it drags on longer and longer, I mean, I imagine the guys aren't sleeping very well. Everyone's strung out, you know, as time goes on. Well, you know, so absolutely that is the case. You know, we started out really good. But our guys, I mean, you know, our dudes are awesome. They're amazing. we have a tendency to fight a hell of a lot longer, but our partner force, however,

you know, a lot of times they can't handle the duration. So as we're fighting, you know, we took a lot of casualties right off the get-go. We took casualties not even having made it to our objective. And so, you know, I can't give you an accurate count of how many of our partner force we lost. You know, we went in with about 90 guys. I say all in all, KIA and wounded.

We lost about 30 in the first weeks, you know, possibly the second week. You know, my number's a little bit, my memory is a little bit sketched when it comes to all those numbers. But we hit IEDs along the way. And we would always go and tend to the wounded. We would always drag the wounded out. so as we're going through our guys obviously we're tired you know we're we're but we're holding it together but as we go along our partner force isn't really handling it quite as well so their their will to fight is kind of diminishing um there's a few of them that continue to fight but

the vast majority do not a lot of them are scared because they've lost a lot of the counterparts. I mean, hell, about, about halfway through it, we even had our guys tried to shoot. It was myself, the second J-TACC, and our two medics. We were exfilling one of our medics because he was actually pretty close to one of the AEDs, and he got a pretty bad concussion.

So it was kind of a green-on blue. In hindsight, I think they were trying to get rid of us so that they could go home. You know, and this is all completely after the fact. And it's like, man, that was kind of odd because I kind of alerted everybody. It's like, hey, there's a helicopter coming. We need to get this guy out. It will be, you know, and we were all there. I'm like, we're all going to go outside our strong point.

But it's still happened, you know. And then fast forward as the day's going. go by. I mean, it got to the point where we were in a Mexican standoff. It was them pointing guns at us, and our guys were pretty calm. You know, there was no guns pointed at, from our end, there was no guns pointing at our partner force, but, you know, me and the team sergeant were up on the hill pulling Overwatch, and I looked over and I saw our counterparts, commander pointing an AK at my commander. You know, my Alpha, our team captain.

And so I'm like, shit. You know, so I put my scope on the partner forces head and I radio down. And I'm like, hey, you know, bro, like, I have him. Just say the word. You know, and our captain was like, nobody do shit. nobody make a move and he defused the situation which was which was awesome

and you know I came down off the hill and I'm like man we got to get rid of these guys like we need to replace them so we uh you know I requested 47 to come in get that partner force out and send us fresh fresh guys so

you know it happened that night but I mean it was just the fighting was so intense and it was was just so long that our guys were our guys did amazing you know it was probably one of the one of the best teams i've ever worked with you know they were professional um they did their job i mean it was from communications to i mean execution to to it it it worked like magic it was amazing everything that you know that i've ever wanted and like hey keep me abreast of a situation it happened

But unfortunately, our partner force was not on the same playing field that we were in. And, you know, they were the biggest, I guess, slim fact, you know, in the whole situation. You know, they were the biggest, they just didn't want to play ball. Right. But, you know, the entire 21 days was kind of like that. And, you know, yeah, we didn't sleep. No, you know, I think I slept the least just because I'm constantly, you know, calling in air. I'm constantly talking to aircraft. My J-Tat, the alternate J-Tac helped me out a lot.

But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like I kind of felt like it was my responsibility. So, you know, I took on probably more than I should have. But, you know, it was, it was just an amazing time. You know, it was an amazing time. The entire process. You know, it's interesting because I think there's really a fast at any point because you say it was an amazing time. you say it was fun. And I totally understand that. And maybe a lot of our civilian viewers and listeners don't understand that. Can you talk about that experience?

Why is that, even though you are fighting for your life, you're sleep deprived, you know, you're running on the ragged edge, a razor's edge, really. Why is that fun and why is that how you know? it's it's an interesting thing because I don't think obviously you guys understand you know our military brothers who have been in gunfights who have been you know down range they completely understand but you know the civilian population I think they have a really hard time you know understanding that it's not gun fights to me,

you know, they're incredibly fun. They're incredibly scary. I mean, it's just think about every single emotion you've ever had in your entire life and combine it. You know, take the greatest, take the happiest, take, you know, you're fighting for your life. And it's every single emotion mixed into one. You know, it's like, you know, you're, you're doing something fun, you're doing something exciting, you're doing something that could possibly kill you, you know, and the adrenaline, I mean, how do I describe it? It's a every single emotion rolled into one. And it's fun and it's scary.

but it's like once you return to the civilian world once you you try to talk to anybody they can't fathom it because you know it's it's truly being alive it's understanding death it's understanding life

it's having a purpose for life you know and going through those situations it's like you know having a complete understanding of what living and life is how precious life is and how quickly it can be taken away from you.

You know, it's just, it's everything rolled up into one. It's like the ultimate experience. You know, it's interesting because I just got the image of sort of a civilian counterpart in a way. And maybe this will make sense to you. And Jack and our other like veteran listeners is that if you think of a roller coaster, right, there are people that get forced to go on to a roller coaster. people who are like, let's go, and they don't want it.

And those, and, and, right? And then there are people who go on rollercoach and enjoy them, but are like, okay, that was really scary. I don't think I'm going to go again, or I'll go again, but I'm really scared. And then there are people that at the very top will raise their hands, right? And then go down. It's like, fuck, yeah. Like, yeah, I'm terrified, but, like, this is it.

And that's sort of the people who raise their hands and keep on doing it again, are, that's the civilian equivalent in a way to the people in, not just soft, but even the conventional side. People who go back over. They're like, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back. Right. It's like, this is what it is.

This is what life is about. It's like pushing that edge and feeling that fear and coming through the other side. I know that was your last deployment issue, but there's actually another one I wanted to ask you about that's a little. a little interesting, was about your deployment to Columbia. And that's obviously a totally different theater, totally different experience than Afghanistan. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what that was like. Yeah, you know, that was a time where I decided to, I wanted to take a break from deploying.

I wanted to take a break from basically everything, you know, because by that point I was pretty, I was smoked. I had broken my back, you know. Uh, my marriage was on the rocks. It's like, like I, I, I just wanted a break, but it just never happened, you know. And, um, this opportunity came down. Well, it wasn't really much of an opportunity, but I got, you know, I was chosen because of my Spanish, my Spanish abilities. And so I was sent down to South America and, you know, obviously the, the, the details of the job. I really can't go into specifics.

Um, but. But, you know, going down to South America, obviously coming from nothing but desert deployments, was a completely different world. And I didn't get to see the fun parts of Columbia. You know, I always hear people talking about Colombia. And it's like, yeah, it was a blast, right? And, you know, when they talk to me, like, oh, my God, that's awesome. I'm like, no, dude. I'm like, my experience.

You're like, I wasn't Secret Service. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can. Didn't get invited to those parties. Yeah. I didn't go to those parties. Yeah. You know, I spent my entire month in the jungle.

And I ended up losing 25 pounds. And it was, I was literally wet. I'm talking shower, just got. out of the shower type wet, right? But I was also literally in the middle of a triple canopy jungle. And we were looking for bad guys. And there was a possibility of a gunfight. And obviously, you know, I can tell you that I never got the gunfight in the jungle.

But just having had to live there, I mean, you know, I started. And let me preface it was with that environment was probably one of the greatest experiences of my life. Simply because, you know, you can imagine a jungle. But I'm talking this is triple canopy. I'm talking as soon as it starts getting dark, you're stopping. Because as soon as it's dark, you're screwed. You can't see like anything in front of your face. even with NVG

You're not seeing anything Yeah because there's no ambient light coming down No ambient light It is just pitch black Yeah You know and And Like you can't fathom this

You can't even imagine this Unless you've actually been there And you know it is so Freaking loud It is I mean it is loud at night It is loud during the day It is deafening How loud it is

And you know To me, I feel like, you know, most people will never get to see this part of the jungle. We'll never get to experience this part, you know. But for me, having lived there for a month, it's like, wow, it is an amazing experience. Having, you know, had to learn how to survive, having learned that, you know, you have to drink at every, especially not being acclimated, you got to drink as much as you can. You got to stay hydrated. You know, my partner force that we were with, they're like, hey, you have to stop drinking. And I'm like, bro, you know, and then Spanish, I'm like, bro, you don't understand.

If I stop drinking, I'm dead. If I stop sweating, I'm dead. You know, and they couldn't understand that concept. But, you know, above all else, like, it made me think about the guys in Vietnam, you know, the guys that have actually had to fight. wars in the jungle type of environment. And I was like, I was taken back. I'm like, man, okay, so I'm just walking through. I've never made contact.

You know, I didn't make contact the entire time. But I'm like, I'm sucking this bad right now. And imagine being in Vietnam. Yeah. And imagine being in the same type of conditions. And now I have to fight for my life. Right. Like, I mean, it was just, it was amazing.

I mean, it gave me a whole different perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Moving to contact in that environment. Not with just the environmental factors or of the underbrush and overgrowth, like all that, but just the physical toll it takes on your body. Yeah. Yeah.

Having to deal with trench foot. Having to deal with, you know, just completely soaking wet the entire time. You know, it's just it was taken back. Yeah. No, it's, you know, it's interesting because we're fortunate. We get a number of guys, you know, both from, you know, the South African conflict or for the African conflicts and from Vietnam on our show. But there's really no way to appreciate what they went through because it was in a completely, like, when they tell us stories, I know Jack and I are with like, we're like, Afghanistan. Iraq were one thing, but, but moving through Vietnam, like, never knowing, you can't see what's

going on. You're like, you don't know where things are happening. And then the environmental factors are another thing that are just like, beating those guys to hell. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, like, I've had a lot of friends. Like, you know, for example, L.D. Cox.

He was a survivor of the USS Indianapolis, you know, it. It's the guys who's, you know, boat got sunk and, like, literally they were getting eaten by sharks. Colonel Cole, he was Doolittle's co-pilot. You know, they're the guys who drop the atomic bomb. You know, like, you know, and so on and so forth. Like, I've had a lot of Vietnam guys. And, you know, I meet them. Most have unfortunately passed, you know, both L.D. Cox and Colonel Cole have passed away.

But, you know, I meet these. guys and they're like man you guys had it hard i'm like what are you talking about you know in in my mind right right i'm like they think that we had it so hard and i'm like bro like if we have all this technology we have all these warmies for one we have all this stuff to make our lives a hell a lot more comfortable even during war i'm like you guys like just sucked it up yeah you know you guys were the greatest generation. You guys fought in Vietnam. You guys fought in the Korean War. You know, but they

think that we had it hard. Right. I'm like, you know, I'm like, no, like you dudes had it hard. Right. Yeah, we have not experiencing like the baton death march, the frozen, chosen, you know, a lot of the events like in Vietnam, you know, the TED offense,

you know, these events, I mean, look, we had guys go through Flusia. I was never there, but we had, you know, Marine, we had soldiers go through Fallujah. Like they, we've had events, but, but there are definitely markers in our own, like, military history that I think modern veterans can look back on and go, how the fuck did they do that?

Oh, yeah. This was, you know, at this point, you know, your career's starting to wind down. You're getting close to retirement. Can you tell us about, you know, how you retired from the Air Force and, and, and, you know, what your experience was like transitioning to civilian life? Yeah, you know, so I retired. I was medically retired right before COVID, actually. I started my medboard process right before COVID hit.

So, you know, at the same time, you know, I'd had a valley fever, so my lungs were pretty messed up. And, you know, I spent three months on bed rest. And then I started recovering from that. And, you know, then we had a baby. So I took some paternal leave. And then it immediately after that, after I went to work, COVID hit. So then shortly after that, they're like, hey, stay home.

My medboard process time, you know, it was like, okay, you're getting medically retired. So, you know, I didn't work for about the first six months. but, or the last six months of my career, but, I mean, it was hard. You know, it's like, you know, going 100 miles an hour and then now all of a sudden you're, you're not doing anything. You know, now it's, your career is ending. I kind of had the, the benefit of slowing down a little bit prior to me retiring. it's actually been a few years

you know and I got I got hurt pretty good in 2010 2011 got her a little bit more and then I started my surgeries in 2012 so I kind of had a little bit of time to get adjusted to it but

you know I don't think anything actually prepares you for that final day although you know it felt like freedom you know you know, I retired as an EA, you know, E6, E7s, anybody in the military, you know, they, they, your entire career, for one, you can't get fired, you know, and if you do, you're

just probably shipped off to somewhere else. But it's like you carry a lot of weight behind your rank, regardless of where you're at, you know, and what I found it, what I found interesting was when I finally retired, you know, and becoming a civilian, it's like, it doesn't matter who you are, who you were, what rank you held, what position you held, you're done. Yeah. It's all gone. Like all your friends, the influence you had, none of that matters.

And I think that's one of the things that I had one of the hardest times with, you know, And it's like, okay, you know, I went from someone who had the ability to speak their mind. And, you know, I had a little bit of an audience. And, you know, I could actually influence some sort of change for the better, you know, to now you're like, oh, you're a civilian. It doesn't matter what you say, what you think, what you're trying to change. You're a civilian. You're out now. You know, and to me, that was the biggest shock.

it's like you completely lose whatever status you had in the military, active duty overnight. Yeah. And at the same time, civilians don't care. Like, they don't care. I mean, look, I don't know how many people have won two silver stars, but I can assure you that it's not a lot. And that's not going to get you a job anywhere.

Like civilians don't care about what you did in the military Unless the qualifications meet the job they're trying to hire But everything that you did It doesn't matter that you were in a 21 day running gun battle With free combat Resupplies They don't care Yeah, absolutely

So you're in this like nebulous world right So how do you Transition or make a new life for yourself? You know, honestly, like, you know, I contemplated going into the corporate world. I contemplated getting, you know, a desk job. But it's kind of hard because, you know, my entire career has never actually felt like a job. It's never felt like work. Like, honestly, I have a hard time quantifying what work really is, you know.

Um, but it, you know, now it, you know, even, even, uh, my better half was like, you're not going to survive a desktop. So he's like, you actually have to talk to people. You have to cater to people. You have to bend over backwards for their feelings. You can't boss people around anymore. You can't set realistic goals and, and hold them accountable. I'm like, what?

you know so you know really i started gravitating more towards work with you know people that i know same people with the same background um for me it's just hard to adapt to the the regular world you know it's kind of like opening up pandora's box like you can't close it anymore um civilians are on a completely different level if they've never been through or have experienced or have an open mind to it or anything like that. It's just, it's extremely hard. So what have you been doing since retirement? I went to work for our schoolhouse as, uh, for a little bit and started training and mentoring guys for a little bit. Um, I was like, go from that job, um, under weird, weird

circumstances. Um, basically somebody got butt hurt over something that I, said which had nothing to do with them but they got butt hurt anyway you know and whatever it's their problem i'm not sour about it i'm not pissed you know and i'm like whatever it it's not going to kill me nobody's dying that's my philosophy you know that i live by now it's not killing me nobody's dying it's not that back you know um which i have them to thank for because now you know i'm i'm doing a security gig um which the customer wants to remain kind of a little bit anonymous. And I'm making twice what the hell the other company was paying me.

So I'm like, thank you. Yeah. I was getting ready to leave without pay anyway. So it doesn't really matter to me. But it's just society is becoming so sensitive that it's like, you know, even these big badass operators are getting butt hurt over the most trivial thing. you know. You can't say something's fucked up when it's fucked up.

Like you ought to be able to point to it and say, yeah, that's messed up. Exactly. You know, we grew up in the days where, you know, my commander had an open policy. He's like, hey, you can come in here and tell me I'm fucked up. But if you're going to come in here and tell me how I'm fucked up, is like you better have a possible solution.

Like, don't just come in here and whine. Tell me how to fix it, you know. And now nobody wants to hear that anymore. But yeah, you know, my new company is amazing. They're all about respect. They're all about treating everybody mutually, you know, with the same respect. And, you know, talking about it, they have open door policies. It's amazing.

It's an amazing company, you know. But yeah, it's basically the security business and I'm loving it. Plus, you know, they gave me a lot of days off and the pay is amazing. And, you know, when I'm not working, I'm. a full-time dad to three little guys, and they consume my time, which I love. Yeah. That's awesome.

That's great. Where can people find you, Ish, if they're looking for you, if they want to maybe hire you for a security gig or whatever else you're offering at the time? I'm on LinkedIn, and I can't even remember my handle, but I'm also on Instagram at ish underscore. VS underscore CCT and I'm on Facebook under Ishviagas. I don't do Twitter. You know, I don't do any other social media or whatnot.

I'm good for you. I'm not as active as I used to be. Yeah, good. I don't do social media either. Like, I'm horrible at it. It's just, I don't know. Ish, you're, you're an amazing fucking dude. You're, you know, an amazing human being.

we deeply appreciate you your company who are there need to pay you twice as much as they're paying you now even if it's good money I wish I know right you're such a testament honestly to like the human spirit

and and look for anybody who is running a big ass company out there a man who's going to break both of his arms and continue driving on with the mission for 18 hours is a person that you want to work with. So fucking bring ish on board.

Like, I'm just so impressed by you as a human being and as an operator and airman, you know, an American. Thanks, brother. I appreciate it, man. And I got great respect for all our boys, all our, you know, men and women. all our soft brethren like you know you sign on that dotted line and you know you're basically you're writing a blank check and you're saying you're willing to give everything up you know and

and some of us do some of us have given it all up you know for this country i mean yeah it's just an honor to have served it's an honor to have served with so many heroes you know my heroes are not these football players they're not these movie stars they're not these singers. There are these guys with two silver stars who drive on through the objective, ish. That's who our heroes are. Thanks, man. Yeah, man. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us on a Friday evening-ish and your patience with some of our technical problems this evening, which is a little unusual. We will be back on Monday. Yeah, Monday we'll be back. We're going to have a retired J-Soc operator.

on the show. Looking forward to speaking to him. Ish, again, thank you so much, man. And, you know, please stay in touch. Yeah. Thank you guys for having, man. It's been a blast. Absolutely.

Hish, hold on one second after we break.