The Team House - CIA Counterterrorism Analyst | Yaya J. Fanusie | Ep. 241

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Yaya J. Fanusie is an Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security(CNAS). His research focuses on the national security implications of cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology. Yaya spent seven years as both an economic and counterterrorism analyst in the CIA, where he regularly briefed federal law enforcement, U.S. military personnel, and White House-level policy makers—including President George W. Bush whom he personally briefed on terrorism threats. In 2009, he spent three months in Afghanistan providing analytic support to senior military officials.Check out his Espionage podcast here:⬇️https://open.spotify.com/show/2zqiUvQFEUkeOCzAJtZDdzFind Yaya here:⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaya-jata-fanusie-87901738https://twitter.com/SignCurve/status/1715406559990194589--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Today's Sponsors:Hello FreshGet 50% off plus free shipping⬇️https://www.hellofresh.com/50teamhouse---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------To help support the show and for all bonus content including:-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#cia #middleeastBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Team House know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out, and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the Team House and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our. bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not-so-good review, why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations, Covert Ops, espionage, the Team House, with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, folks, welcome to episode 241 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy. Dave Park.

is out today, but we got co-host Jason Lyons. He was on the show way back in our early days when it was just like a bed sheet tacked behind the wall. So you have to scroll way down into the archives to find the interview with him. But our friend Jason served in the Marine Corps and as a CIA staff operations officer, we're really glad to have him filling in today. And our guest tonight is Yaya Funusi. Yaya served as an economic analyst at CIA. He's also the brains behind the Jabari Lincoln Files, which is a podcast, a fictional espionage podcast that I've been listening to this week. I think it has a really unique perspective. I think Yaya has a really unique perspective and we're really excited to have them on the show tonight. So welcome, man. Hey, thank you both. Jack Jason,

great to be here. It's an honor to be on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for doing it, man. And a quick shout out to one of our sponsors for vitamin one water. You can go check them out at drink vitamin one.com. down in the description. They make an alternative to some of the other sports drinks you know. It has all the electrolytes in it, but it doesn't have any sugar in it. So please go check them out. Drinkvitamin1.com. So yeah, yeah, we'll start off with you, man. We'll start at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about your background, your upbringing and sort of like how that led you towards governmental service. Wow. Well, it's a long journey. I mean, I think I actually have to go back to my origin goes back to my family my my parents um you know and where did i get the name

yeah yeah finusi so uh my dad is originally from sierra leone west africa and my mother is from here from the states and uh they met my dad came over in 1967 for college and so he he came over um and uh and so they met they had me and my sister and i was born and raised in california So, you know, my mom's African-American and my dad, you know, originally from Africa. And so I grew up mostly in the Southern California area. We grew up mostly in the San Fernando Valley. Los Angeles, basically, lived in the Bay Area for a little while. But yeah, mostly California born and raised until actually one part of my childhood,

I went to, we went as a family to Nigeria for a year. So I think it was second grade. So we were living in the Bay Area. We live in Oakland, and my dad, who had finished, my dad got a PhD. My mom got a PhD also. She's a pharmacist in pharmacology, and my dad in public administration. So he went back to West Africa. He couldn't go back to Sierra Leone.

So he went to teach at a university in Nigeria. So we went, it was just me, my sister wasn't born yet. And I spent a year in Nigeria. So that was my first exposure, you know, my main exposure to Africa, to international. you know, the international world. So I was always at a young age already exposed, right? I mean, my dad's, you know, my dad background. And then that experience in Nigeria, which I think really impacted me.

Your dad, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just going to point out, I mean, was your dad then the sort of the first generation of post-colonial South Africa, or I'm sorry, Sierra Leoneans that came to be educated in the West and then went back home afterwards? words. So, man, so what can I say? My dad's legacy is very interesting. So you would, you know, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this because he may listen to this. So my dad came of age in the 60s in the sort of post-colonial and independence. I think he, you know, Sierra Leone got his independence probably when he was a young, like a teenager, young teenager or something like that. Right. So he was part of that generation just coming out of. the colonial period, the independence period, and this is the 60s, right? He came over in 67. And I will share something which this is myth or reality. You all will have to choose, but this is what my dad tells you because it's really a full circle moment. So my dad's in 1967.

He's a young man. And this was the 60s in Africa. He was very politically active. You know, this is the newly independence here. Leone had been independent for a few years. And so he's very active. And he's with a lot of the active activist people, sort of independence, post-colonial people, young men in Sierra Leone. So this is the story that I've been told. I've been told that there was someone at the U.S. State Department in Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone, who took an interest in my dad. And this diplomat was really watching all the political, the young political guys in Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone is an English-speaking country, for those that don't know, formerly British.

It's actually free town. Free slaves were settled. So there's a really interesting history there. But anyway, so my dad says that, you know, they took an interest because he was one of the young rabble rousers in Sierra Leone. And at that time, Cold War, there was actually, there was this pool that, you know, the Soviet Union was trying to recruit students to go to Russia. and to and to Eastern Europe. And that, you had that element in Sierra Leone and trying to recruit these young, young guys. And from what I understand, someone at the U.S. embassy said, no, no, no, no, we don't want them.

We don't want him to go there. Let's get them. Let's have them go to you. We do not want this guy with the Soviets. And, and basically, you know, so he got a scholarship to come and study, to come and study in the United States. And so the funny thing is, like, there's a lot of like, you know, under, there's an undercurrent here. So years later, because I didn't even know this, I don't think my dad told me. But years later, my dad got in touch with, I think on Facebook, that diplomat, that guy who, you know, maybe he wasn't really, you know, who he said he was.

And apparently, you know, it's interesting because my dad got a full bright scholarship to come to the United States. And then when I was in college, I actually got a full bright scholarship to go to West Africa. But so my dad reached out to this to this gentleman. Years later, you know, before he died, before this gentleman died that was in Sierra Leone. And he told him about me. He said, well, you know, my son ended up working for you guys, you know, years later. And the guy told him, that was great. I got two for one.

So, yeah, the story, you mean, the family lore, I haven't really, I've never told this story publicly. But the family lore is that, you know, that was a part of my dad coming here. He settled, met my mom. And Sierra Leone got very politically. It was difficult, so he couldn't go back. So he went to Nigeria to study, I mean, to teach. And that's what brought us to Nigeria for that one. We came back actually from Nigeria.

We moved to my grandmother's home where she lived in South Central L.A. So it went from Zaria, Nigeria to South Central L.A. And spend a little bit of time there. Then we moved out to the Valley, San Fernando Valley. And I always had this, you know, this international awareness. But I went through some, you know, I don't know. Should I pause there? Because I mean, I didn't even get to go.

Go ahead. Tell the story the way you want to tell it. Okay. So, you know, I would say I went on a journey because, you know, I'm probably not. You probably wouldn't think that I would go. to the career that I went on to. So let me list some context, right? So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm in my late 40s.

So I came of age in the late 80s and 90s in terms of being a teenager. And this was at the time, I was impacted by the culture of the time, right? I mean, you guys, I'm sure remember, this was this was the hip hop time. I came of age, you know, I mean, you know, you know, all those groups from from the late 80s, the conscious hip hop, the political hip hop. public enemies, you know, Afrocentric. That was, hey, that was a part of my youth and my, my childhoods. And I, you know, I was actually the, the black student union president at my school in high school. And so I was, you know, wearing the Dysheikis and, you know, the Africa pin on my black hat.

It was, you know, that was, I mean, you, you remember that time, right? So you wouldn't think I would go on to join the CIA. You know, and especially I think my, my background, my dad's background. and, you know, so how did that happen? Because I think even a lot of people wonder, like some of my, you know, high school and college folks are probably like, what? How did you go to the agency? You were not the kid. You were not the guy who we would have think.

And I guess the short story is my own maturity. I think I kind of sort of peaked early in the sense of like my sort of put that, that age as a youth like 14, like 15, 16, 17, right? when I was really into that, I was really into it. And I think when I got to college, I was very much interested in education and youth mentorship, all the jobs I had when I was in college. I went to UC Berkeley for my undergraduate and studied economics. And so you can see, like, I was already thinking internationally because I studied economics and I was thinking a lot about international development. I got to travel. I did some research in Zimbabwe. This is in the 1996. I traveled to the Caribbean for a program at our school. So I was really thinking internationally. But when I was back at home,

where when I was at school, all the jobs I had dealt with education. I was doing tutoring. I was helping run a mentorship program that was in West Oakland. And so it really exposed me to, you know, what is needed in our world? What is needed for our youth and for our communities? And so I think I had a lot of maturing. That's one thing, right? I was just seeing a lot of the sort of political rhetoric that maybe I was listening to in my early years of hip hop. And then I was seeing how, you know, I was just maturing, I think, in my understanding of what are the dynamics at work? What, what do our youth really need to do? What's really going to help the situation, especially the African American situation? And so that, so I was maturing and developing. But then

there was something else that happened, which was towards the end of my college career, you know, I had my own sort of spiritual journey. I mean, if we can, you know, if it's okay for me to go there. For sure. So again, maybe I'm oversharing a little bit, but, you know, my, well, so I'll just say this. When I was in college, I think I was going through some sort of spiritual searching. And I remember a few things that affected me. And one of the biggest moments in my life that I think made me more spiritual was the death

of my grandmother. Remember my grandmother in California, we moved, we lived with her for a little while. And my parents did get divorced eventually, but, but, but, and I, you know, was, you know, but my father was always in my life. I mean, father was, you know, he lived in Oakland. We were in Southern California. So, you know, I was always connected to my dad. But I remember when my mom's mom passed, I, here I am like this real sort of political, cultural guy. And I remember I started thinking a lot about how life and, you know, my grandmother passing. And, and I just started to flex more about, man, well, the spiritual side of things. In terms of background, like what was my background?

I mean, I would say, you know, raised it a, you know, I would say probably nominally Christian household. You know, my father was not very religious. I think my mother was, you know, raised Christian. And so I think, and my grandmother, her influence, always remember, you know, talking to her. I remember talking to her and, you know, just things that she would share with me. So when she passed, you know, I think I started to think more about religion and about spirituality. And hey, I was in the Bay Area. I did my little, you know, I was doing yoga and I was doing all, you know, the whole typical things that you get in college searching and going to different things.

And all while I'm like, you know, doing my academics, traveling. Like so this was like a period of growth. And to top it off, because this is all going to be connected, hopefully in talking about the podcast. And I was in the radio. I had a radio show in college at K-A-L-L-X, Cal-X, N. 90.7 FM, Berkeley. And so I'm listening to music, getting into jazz, John Coltrane, you know, all these sort of spirit, you know, John Coltrane was a very spiritual-minded jazz

musician, you know, all of these influences are affecting me. And lo and behold, at one point, and, you know, we can go into details if we need to, but, you know, to sum it up, I basically found the path for me of Islam. You know, I converted to Islam during my last, really my last semester. semester at Berkeley. So I had sort of gone through my experience at at at Berkeley. And then, and then, yeah, I just, I just, I just, um, I just, um, I just found, you know, Islam for me. And so, uh, so I became Muslim, you know, at the tail end of right before I graduated. And it's interesting because most people would think, and this is the late 90, this is 97, I guess,

uh, when I'm graduating and going through this experience. And most people would, would think you think about the time where we're in, right? There's a pre-9-11. And you, you would think like, okay, well, was that, you know, potentially that could have been, I mean, hey, we know what happened to folks like John Walker Lynn, right? And, and, and, and, and, and, and, what's his name, right? Um, oh, Adam Godan. Adam Godan, right? Like, those, that was, those guys in the late 90s, right? What's interesting was I, for me, religion, I actually think was a, I hate to use this term, but almost like a moderating force or counter radicalizing force in the way that I saw it and came to it. Because,

I think I had gone through my my high school years where, you know, I was thinking more about the politics. Like you think about someone like Malcolm X. And I remember in high school reading Malcolm X's autobiography. And I wasn't really into his religious transformation. I was more into like his political commentary back then because that's what I was into, you know, in the early 90s. But then, but then this transformation as I started to get more spiritual, it actually made me see how a lot of the political polemics were. distracting from like the universal principles that you find in religion. And for me, Islam was in, and I was reading it.

And the funny thing was I didn't have like I wasn't really learning from some person. I didn't really know any other Muslims at this time. It was really self-studied. I had one one good friend who was Muslim who kind of, you know, you know, gave me a book or book or so and I talked to him. But it was mostly a very self-study. I wasn't thinking about what's happening in the Muslim world. It was really just reading, you know, reading from reading.

from the book, reading from the Quran, learning about, you know, the principles of the faith and the history in a very, you know, just a, I don't know, a reflective sort of way. And, and so that, you know, just made me, and when I was reading, like, it's so funny, when radical, like, when 9-11 happened and when we're learning, later I became a counterterrorism analyst. And in learning about all those things, it was so interesting because, you know, those, the jihadist, propagandists, you know, that was a big thing. thing we could talk about like, you know, when I joined the agency and when I went to the CT world, that was at the height of AQ. That was at the height of Al Q. And, you know,

I went over to the National Counterterrorism Center. And, you know, whenever, you know, bin Laden back then or Azarhi or whoever, or Adam Gaddan, right, had their propaganda videos and they would, you know, they would quote, you know, either verses or they would point to parts of Islamic history, right, that that would resonate, that they would feel would resonate with the Muslim populist. And it's interesting because they would point to things which, you know, yeah, when I was learning and read, like I was reading, you know, learning, reading from the Quran myself, reading some of the commentary. And I never, I never arrived at the conclusion that these guys got to, right? And I was just a convert just trying to figure it out myself. So it's interesting

that, um, depending on how, you know, someone can shape the same verse or scripture that you're, that you're identifying with how they shape it. could impact how you develop. I had another influence, which I think is really the key to how I could transform myself and join the CIA. So when I converted to Islam, I was, like I said, I was sort of on my own. And I was just about to graduate. And then I left to go, I got the full right to go to West Africa. I went to Ghana for a year before I started grad school. So I wasn't like in one neighborhood or community. or mosque or anything. I went straight to Ghana, basically, had the opportunity when I was in Ghana

to make the Hodge, to make the pilgrimage to Mecca while I was there because here I was a newly graduated student. I had my research, my Fulbright money, and I was close and I was like, when am I ever going to be able to do this? So I just made the Hodge, you know, right then and there. And, and, and so I was able to see different Muslim countries' perspectives, right? Because I'm, because I'm, I'm an American and I'm learning and I'm media. Going on Hajj was interesting because when I went on Hajj, you know, there's a mix.

You have all these Muslims from all over the world, different countries, Muslims from China, Muslims from Iran, from Indonesia, from Egypt, et cetera. And so you're seeing how everyone has like their own take or their own approach.

You know, women and gender like a funny thing when I was with, I was with the Ghanaians. I was with a Ghanaian delegation when I went. And so I'm with hanging out with all these Ghanaians, West Africans. And the women that are on Hodge from Ghana, like they're working. They're like business women. They're like you come out, you know, you wake up, you come out.

And they're like chefing up stuff. You know, they're making money on the Hodge, which is all good. You can make money, you know, on the outskirts, you know, when you're not doing the rituals. And I'm seeing this, you know, this interaction between men and women. And then when I walk into what I'm in in Mecca or in Medina and you walk into like a store, And I don't see any women, right? I don't see women at all engaging. I'm seeing this difference between what I'm witnessing in West Africa, Muslims, and what I'm witnessing in Saudi Arabia.

And this is all within, you know, my first year, year and a half of converting. So, you know, I moved back after Ghana, I went to New York, went to grad school. And so I'm already seeing that Islam is not one thing. And I'm talking to people and some people are saying stuff that I'm like, I don't know if I agree with that perspective. And I'm talking to some people and they're like, oh, you know, different. I'm like, oh, yeah, that resonates with me. And I sort of found my home, I think my spiritual home here in the United States when I was in New York with a particular sort of Muslim community that came, really the African-American Muslim community that came out of that, the experience of, you know, moving from the nation of Islam to after Elijah Muhammad died, his son took over and that community, you know, went into. to Islam proper.

And actually my wife, you know, came from that experience. And it was really that community where I think I got solidified in my identity. And one of the key things about that experience or that association of Muslim Americans is that they had a very strong, really clear sense that you can be Muslim and American and there's no contradiction. And that Muslims in America should have embraced their citizenship. Like that was, you know, Imam Mourth Dean Muhammad, W.D. Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad's son, you know, did a 180 when the nation of, you know, from the nation of Islam. The nation of Islam,

as you know, right, was very racially focused, black supremacy, new for self, like some things which were very good. Malcolm came through that tradition. But the, the ideology was not Islamic. You know, it was not really Islamic. And, and Elijah Muhammad's son took the community sort of after Elijah Muhammad's death into, you know, mainstream Islam proper, but then also dismantled this idea of like, America is the, you know, enemy America's going to fall. It was more like, look, it's the 70s. This was the 70s. It was like, look, America's changed from Jim Crow. If we're going to do something, we're African Americans, we're Muslim. You know, the Constitution is in line with the principles of our religion.

We should work for it. And that contrasted with what you would hear often from like the nation of Islam, which at the time, you know, when I was coming up in the 90s, you know, you're hearing Farrakhan. You're hearing something very different. Here's this other alternative that's really practicing the religion, but not getting the airtime, you know, not getting the headlines because, you know, the people aren't saying crazy things. And I kind of, not kind of, I found that as my home. I found, you know, I found teachers amongst that community who helped me grow as a Muslim. And so this is like late 90s, 2000, you know, I got married in 2000, moving to D.C. And, and, and so here's a, let me, I guess, how did the CIA,

happened. This is, this is, this is, this is exactly what happened. So yeah, yeah, can I, can I interrupt for one moment? Um, absolutely. This is, this is, this is fascinating. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick up right back there. I'm sorry to interrupt. I just got to do this, uh, ad read real quick. Uh, so the second sponsor for tonight's show is Hello Fresh. Uh, with Hello Fresh, uh, you get farm fresh pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep, skip trips to the grocery store and count on Hello Fresh to make home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit. You know, if you have a crazy schedule, it can make it easy to fall back into your dinnertime recipe rut. Keep meal time exciting

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We enjoy it. I hope you guys will go and check out the sponsor of the show. So Jason, do you have something? Yeah. So I just need to jump in here. This whole time I was thinking that this is amazing to me because normally on the podcast that I've listened to that I've been on, things like that, when you get an origin story, it's usually came up in the military or came up as a military person. I joined the CIA or whatever it is because of 9-11 or because my father was this. So this origin story is amazing to me.

and I think it's really incredible because you were like the definition of a crossroads. You were at that fork in the road. You could have gone either way. And I'm not saying the other way would have been radical Islam or anything like that. But it could have been, you know what? I'm not going to serve a country that doesn't serve me or my people or a kind of thing. And you recognize that that is a thing, you know, in society. But you decided on a different path.

And that's, that's pretty awesome. So I'm, I'm loving this. Wow. Okay. Well, so yeah, well, that, that, that, so maybe I can sort of dive into like the nuts and bolts of, of how it happened. And, and I'll back up a little bit because I want to really bring things full circle. Because part of this to me is like, wow.

I mean, you don't really know, you know, your life. You're just some, some, some things seem like chance. Something seem like, it's like, wow, you, you feel that this is destined. But so let me go a little bit back to high school. in this, the spiritual religious side again. And then I'll jump to like how I got into the CIA because this is to me is interesting. Because a lot of people think they hear my name and they think, oh, you're Muslim because, you know, is it because your dad's eye because of, you know, you're West African and

parentage. And I'm like, actually, no, it actually, that was not, that was not what influenced me. And it's interesting. What happened was, again, I won't get too much into family details, but it's so happened that my grandfather, my maternal grandfather had, he had joined the nation of Islam, I think probably in the 60s it must have been. You know, I never got to meet him because, you know, he and my grandmother were divorced. And so my, my, my mom was raised in, mostly raised in Los Angeles.

And so, but my mom went to his funeral when I was in high school. So this is like 91, goes to the funeral. And it's a Muslim funeral. And so my mom meets some family members there who she hadn't seen maybe in decades. And they give her a copy of the Quran and this other religious book called the Sains of Muhammad, which had some basic sayings. Very well, an old book actually that had a forward by Mahatma Gandhi in this book. It was really interesting.

And so she comes back and this is like 91. I'm in high school. And she gives me those books. And she gives me the Quran and that other. small book and and she's you know she just gives it to me she's like okay you know you just you know you hold this you know you take care of it um and so i was like oh okay now because i'm not again i'm not really thinking about religion at this time i think more about culture and hip hop and all these other things afrocentricity all of that and so but i keep it on my shelf and so i go to college

and again the book is on my shelf and it's just so interesting because it just shows how you know you have to go through your own journey and how certain things resonate at certain times because of where you are because I remember during my sort of, you know, college time, you know, maybe I opened it up the book and read some things a little bit. I'm like, okay, yeah, that's interesting and go on to something else. But it was, it was later on after I guess I had gone through my own journey. And I'll never forget when I felt sort of spiritually, I was at this really interesting place, which was I had gone to Zimbabwe for about six weeks. And And this is in the 90s.

And I just remember being so reflective about the order of the universe. You know, it was like, you know, it was like the universe has so much order. Like the cosmos, the skies, you know, the plants, the insects, like everything is so ordered. It seems so ordered. And in my sort of logical leap was, it must be some order for the human being. It must be some, you know, there must be some truth, you know. And so I'm in a different place by the time I graduate. I'm thinking about these big, these big issues and these big ideas.

And so, and it was, it was then that I kind of went back to the book and started looking and reading. And then, and then I was at a different place. And so for me, again, it was like, it just became so clear like, oh, wow, this is, this is, this is where I should, I should go. And so all this, you know, so then you few years go by, I go to grad school. And I'm young. I mean, I realized that like, you know, I went to grad school. Yeah, I, I'll plug it. I didn't, you know, I realized when I'm in grad school that I didn't have much work experience. You know, I basically just, you know, spent a year abroad and now I come back in grad school. And I went to international affairs and I realized that I was not really very excited about my degree, you know.

And I actually was thinking about education. Here goes that education piece to me. And so I was thinking about, you know what, I'm going to graduate here, but I think I should go into education. So I graduate and I don't get a job in international affairs. right away. So this is going to lead to the CIA. In fact, I have, and I get married, my wife and I get married, we moved to D.C. My first job, again, I have all this travel experience, all of this stuff I've done, an international affairs degree with the finance concentration. My first job is I become a budget analyst for the D.C. public school system, right, right here in D.C. And I do that. Because

to me, it was like a nice balance. I use a little bit of my e-finance, and then I'm like getting close to education. And then, this is the early 2000. This is before 9-11. So then like 2000, 2001, I decide to teach at a charter school in D.C., northeast D.C. So I'm on this kick where I'm just like, you know what? Even though I did all that education, that masters, I think education is my thing, or at least let me get some teaching experience. So I decide to teach and they, I go for the interview. I say, you know what? I think I should teach econ or something. And they're like, What? No, you took calculus in college, right? Like, yeah, I took calculus. I mean, you know, you're our math teacher.

You're going to be teaching math. I'm like, oh, okay, all right. Let me brush off those math books. So I become a math teacher and in D.C. And I'm thinking, you know what? Maybe I could become a principal, a system principal. That was my vision for myself. I really thought I was going to go into educational administration. Let me tell you, after about a month teaching, I realized.

I felt like, man, no, this is the toughest job. I don't think I want to become an administrator. I was like, this is, to this day, out of all the jobs I've had, teaching, that teaching experience, and I taught for three years. So I stay with it for three full years. Much of it I loved, but it was the toughest job that I have ever had. And that's counting the CIA, this anything else, the most, the most stressful job. And, you know, I hate to say it because, you know, most people like to give that message.

Like, oh, I taught and, you know, I was doing all these great things. And it was, I mean, yeah, there was so much good, but I didn't want to stay there. I did not want to stay teaching. So I actually started to think, what can I do? Maybe I should get back in the foreign policy, maybe something, something like that. So this is 2003, basically. I'm looking for a new job. I'm in D.C.

I'm meeting, you know, I'm thinking about the State Department. I'm thinking about, you know, just a whole bunch of different things. And so, lo and behold, in around 2003 to 2004, I'm taking the, the foreign service exam. I'm thinking maybe I'll become a foreign service officer. And I actually did, you know, I passed a written and then I remember, I did the oral and actually I missed it like by a little bit. So I didn't get in. And so my wife at the time was doing a PhD at Howard University. And again, my wife just, you know, background like she's a Muslim, you know, African American Muslim, came through that experience. You know, she's, you know, a scholar in her own right. She's a historian.

She was a history PhD. And I'm hanging out on Howard's campus because I would always, I would go there to, you know, to meet her or something. And Howard has this Ralph Bunch Center, which is like an international affair. So I'm, I'm talking to the people at the Ralph Bunch Center because they have a diplomat in residence. And the diplomat in residence at very different campuses is always a State Department foreign service officer with a lot of experience who spends, I guess, maybe like a year or two at a college campus and then helps the students with preparing for the foreign service. exam, giving them advice, you know, doing programs, et cetera. Now, I wasn't a Howard student, but I was going to the Ralph Bunch Center. I was like talking to him. And I'll never forget this guy who's an ambassador, if he's still out there, Nick Williams, I've never, I should

actually probably reach out to him because he, he changed my life. So I had, I didn't make that first, you know, the first try at at the foreign service. So I'm in his office talking to him. You know, I'm trying to get his ideas, tips on, you know, what to do next time to make sure I passed the oral exam, et cetera. And, you know, we're finishing up our conversation. And he, you know, he's telling me, he's saying, you know, yeah, yeah, you shouldn't just focus on foreign service. You know, with your background, you should maybe think about commerce or, or the Treasury Department. You know, you've got an econ background. And I'm mulling it over. I'm like, okay, you know, that sounds good. I'll try to, you know, broaden my horizons, think about,

you know, look at some, you know, look at USA jobs, et cetera. And, and then I'm about to leave, about to walk out. And then he says, oh, wait a second. And he ruffles around his desk. And then he pulls out a card. And he says to me, you know, have you ever considered working for the CIA? And this was the crossroads. This was the cross. Right.

When he said that, have you ever considered? And, you know, the context was he had just been visited by a recruiter from the CIA. You know, they had gone to Howard and probably, you know, passed out their cards and stuff. So he had this recruiter's card. And he was like, have you ever considered that? And then I kind of paused. And it was like, in my mind, it was like, you know, no, I've never considered working for the CIA. We hadn't really been thinking about intelligence.

I mean, I was, I guess I was thinking about national security in terms of the foreign service, but I never really thought about Intel. And he said this famous line, which I've quoted many times, he said, and Nick Williams is African American. And he says, you know, maybe because I had paused and I was mulling it over. And he was like, you know, I know a lot of brothers working for the CIA. It's not your father's CIA anymore. You know, and that just kind of broke the ice. And it was funny because had, you know, obviously if that question had been asked maybe seven years earlier, right, when I was in high school, right? I would be like, oh, no, I'm not working at the CIA.

But I had gone through so much, I think my own sort of personal maturity, seeing America differently, even by this time, right? I had been a Muslim for several years. I had, you know, had embraced my American identity. I hadn't been, I wasn't thinking about Intel, but I was at a place where I was like, you know what? I hadn't considered working with the CIA. I told him, but I'm open. You know, because I just didn't know about the intel world. It was something that I didn't know anyone in intelligence.

And the sort of funny thing is, you know, I went to, I got my master's in New York City in 2000. And I always tell people it's funny because in my international affairs program in 2000, security was not a big concentration. Most people were doing like finance or econ or, you know, or maybe they had a lot. a regional concentration, but like security policy was not big in, in 2000. Wasn't obviously until later where people are starting to, you know, focus on counterterrorism and security became like deconcentration. So I said, you know, I'm open to it.

And so I called her, you know, I had the recruiter's card. So I either called her or emailed her. I think I called her. And we had a conversation. And she was recruiting for the D.I for the director of intelligence, as it was known at the time. And so she and I talked to her. And she described the life of a CIA analyst. And it's funny, she just, she said something about it.

You know, it's like, it's like grad school, but you're getting paid in terms of, you know, like you really get, you know, that was her take. It was like, you know, you get so much into it and you're working on things that are in the head, you know, that are important that are in the headlines. And it was very intriguing to me. And I said, you know what? I should, I should check this out. Now this is like, I guess it must have been late 2003 because I was about to go into my last year teaching, you know, because I was. I was doing this while I was teaching still, right? So I was like, I'm looking for a job, but, you know, I'm still teaching.

And so this would have been fall of 2003. And then, you know, I went through it. And at that time, it was a very simple process. Like back then, back then they had the interviews were at headquarters. Like it wasn't at a different building. Like I drove up and this was before like a GPS. I remember I had my map quest. And I remember I drove to the agency headquarters.

and I drive accidentally to the employee side. So I'm greeted, you know, so I'm driving up, you know, for my interview. I'm going for my interview to the employee side. And of course, you know, the deposed, you know, the security officers was like, okay, I think you need to go around. And so that was my first. But I interviewed, I interviewed for a couple of different offices. And then I got accepted to, or I got hired for Africa as an economic.

analyst. So I, I, I, O.D, my entrance on duty was 2005. And so, you know, I had learned much. And I remember going back, you know, so for me, we could talk about 9-11 because 9-11. So I have two different, so it's funny, 9-11 was one experience. I wasn't in government. I was teaching. In fact, I remember 9-11. I was in front of my students when it happened here in D.C. You know, when 9-11 happened. So I had a different experience because I was really dealing with my students. But, When I got it, when I got to the agency, you know, I'm working as an economic analyst and with a with a focus really on corruption and energy, energy issues. So I'm focused on those issues in Africa. And it was like it was like a new world.

You know, it was something that I had not. I mean, the Intel world is such a, it's like a, it's funny. It's like Intel is like a vast world, but it's a bubble. It's it's a bubble, but it's vast. because, you know, once you're in Intel, there's just so many places you can go, right? So many different, I mean, within the agency and outside of it. And so 2005, I start. I'm doing, you know, regular analyst stuff, going through the training, going through the career analyst program and all of that.

And so here's another, not crossroads moment, but a milestone for me. So I'm in the agency. I'm enjoying it. I really, you know, I'm, you know, the world. work, you know, even when I started, I mean, I really enjoyed it, learning the tradecraft, writing, briefing, you know, it was just a great experience. And so when I was going through my training, it happened to be the date of July 7, 2005. And I'll never forget that day. So that day sticks out in a different way for me than 9-11 because I was working at the agency at this time.

And so I remember that day because I drove to the training and drove all the way to, you know, to rest in where my training was. And I remember because I hadn't listened to the radio at all. I must have listened, you know, music or something or CD or whatever. And so I remember getting, getting there. And then the TVs are all on. And I'm like, oh, what's going on? And so, you know, you see, like on the news, it's like there was just this bombing in London,

the underground, these buses. And it just happens. It's all everywhere, right? And everybody's just looking at it. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, of course we kind of like, you know, just pause and everybody's just trying to figure out what. what's going on and people, you know, people from CTC are like, you know, talking to their offices, you know, because this, you know, everyone, you're just kind of away from your desk for,

for this training period. And I had had two friends that I had made at the agency that were in CTC, that were in the counterterrorism center, that were analysts. And I'll never forget them. I mean, they're still friends to this day. One, interestingly, was a Pakistani American woman who has her own interesting story herself. I'll let her, you know, maybe she could come on. She has a real interesting background, but this friend, she was an analyst and she was, you know, she was in CTC. And we had met and she would often say, yeah, you should, you should consider coming to over to us, coming, you know, doing CT work. And I was like, you know, I don't know. I'm good. I'm good. Where I like this stuff, what I'm doing. I mean, I don't know much about like terrorism.

I've never studied terrorist groups. I mean, you know, but in another, for example, there was another friend too who had there was another colleague who was from new york who who worked on wall street and then joined the cia after after the attacks i mean she lost she lost people close to her in those attacks and then she she joined the cia and she was an african-american woman just you know just just by chance and so we would often talk you know they would say oh you should think about ct work and of course you know they knew i was muslim right so obviously when i you know when i go to the agency like that's no secret i'm i'm you know i probably should say this you know just for context I'm a practicing Muslim.

You know, I pray. I pray, you know, and, you know, do what I can to sort of live, live my faith. And, you know, so I'm not hiding that I'm Muslim or anything like that, even though I'm working at the CIA. I mean, in my mind, I'm like, hey, I mean, there's, I don't see a contradiction here. You know, yeah, I went through the background check was, you know, was an interesting process, you know, with, you know, questions, you know, hey, I won't say, you know. But, you know, I mean, they, you know, they, they get to the roof. of a lot of things. They, they go deep. And, but I, you know, I went through that process. And so, again, wasn't, wasn't hiding it or anything. That was just my life. But so when we learned about

the seven, seven bombers, when we started to find out like what had happened and who they were, that the, that those bombers were British citizens, for the most part, born and raised, you know, uh, you know, and one of them was a convert. You know, the one that I think was like born in Jamaica or Jamaican ancestry. And so this was different than 9-11 in a big way, if you think about it, right? 9-11, we were attacked by foreigners, right? You know, the hijackers. They weren't Americans. And so 7-7 was an attack. And I actually have family in London, you know, and that was one of the reasons why I think I was thinking a lot about it. I have family that's on my dad's side that's in London. I've been to London. And that attack, right, this was al-Qaeda using

Brits. And so, you know, so I'm thinking about like my friends who had told me, oh, you know, you should maybe join the CT fight. I don't really know much about CT. It was that that made, I started to think I was like, you know what? I understand that profile a bit, right? I understand a Western young Muslim. These guys were like probably in their 20s, you know, 20s or early 30s, probably 20s. And I was in my 30s, early 30s. And I started to think about, one, what can I do to help stop these types of attacks, especially with my understanding, right? Because for me, it's like I understand that profile and I can understand, or maybe I have a sense of like what what's, what's pinging them or like what their, you know, what their orientation is. And so I, at that moment, I didn't, I didn't up and change. I, you know, I completed my training. I went back to my office and I continued doing what I was what I was doing. But the seed was planted that, you know, I started to explore opportunities in CT. I mean, everyone does it, right? You're thinking about what office you might go to.

And so by 2000, late 2006, the opportunity that sort of came to me because I was looking at different possibilities was doing a doing basically jumping, stay in CIA, but then going over to the National Counterterrorism Center, NCTC, which was still pretty new back then, right? And CTCC is like, you know, the place people don't, you get volunteered to go there, right? If you're in your agency, like people, you know, especially back then, people talk at about NCTC. Um, yeah, because you know, at all our agencies, right, everybody thinks the other agency is bad. And, you know, it's an interagency thing and it's duplicative and redundant. Um, but I, I, you know, I had a good opportunity and I had a good experience for the most part. And, um, so basically I joined NCTC to work on the AQ,

Homeland team. So looking at threats against the homeland. And so that was my my journey. So I made this choice. Because of that, it really made me think about maybe, maybe I should do something in the CT realm. And so I was, my economic analyst status, I think technically it was always what I had, like on paper, like in my file was like economic analyst. But I was at NCTC. So I was doing CT work for the bulk of that. I wasn't doing financial. Like when I got into CT, it wasn't terror finance. It was just, you know, just straight up, you know, plotters and some external plotting and that sort of thing. So that was my journey.

That was the, that's how I, how I got to the CIA and how I got to doing CT work. That's an amazing story. And it's such a unique story, too, that you don't normally get to hear. Like, as you pointed out, Jason. So doing the CT work, you mentioned that you were on the homeland threat team. at NCTC. You know, as we just go through this, I would like to ask you,

are there any, like, significant plots that you guys help break up that you're able to talk about? I mean, there was a lot that was happening in those days. Yeah, there were a few, I think, but probably the thing that I was closest to that may be of most interest that I feel comfortable talking about because I've gotten it cleared.

I've talked about it in other settings. And it kind of hits home. So think about this time. This is like 2007, 2008 and 2009. This was like my sort of like really when I was growing as a CTN. It was like really getting in there. And this was an interesting time. So threats against the homeland.

What is AQ doing? You know, height of, you know, obviously Iraq war, Afghanistan war. And so I followed something. It's funny because I'll tell you about something that I got involved in, but I didn't see it to its conclusion. Like, I mean, you all know how it ended, but I wasn't there to the end. So 2008, I guess it was, or 2007, 2000, I forget, but around that time, there was an individual who was in a Yemeni prison. And your listeners will probably remember the name, and you all remember the name, Enwar Al-Laki.

So Al-Laki had been in prison. You know, he was for the audience, you know, he was a Yemeni American in Virginia in Imam. And, you know, interesting history. I mean, so he was in Imam. And he sort of, I mean, I guess the main story is that at some point he became very, he became radicalized. And there's a lot of backstory there. I mean, he was Yemeni. And, you know, one of the one or two of the hijackers, I think went did go to his, his mosque,

etc but I don't think you know I'm not sure that there was a what the connection was or if there was a connection but anyway he eventually left the U.S. and there's articles written about him and he went back to Yemen right the place of his family and he went back to Yemen and then by the time he went back there he had he had become radical I mean he was someone who after 9-11 was saying you know condemning the 9-11 attacks but then he changed his tune a few years later and so so he got involved in some stuff, some plotting stuff, and the Yemenis put him in jail. So he was in a Yemeni prison. And at one point, he gets out. So he gets out, but he's kind of like, he's been in a prison. So he's been off, he's been off the mart. He's been out. He's been away for whatever it was like a

year or a year and a half or something. And so this was when I was like, this was, you know, I was following issues like that. And so when he gets out, he starts doing interviews. And the interesting thing was that this is all open source. And that's actually why I can talk, you know, talk somewhat about this. He starts doing radio interviews and online interviews with like reporter or, you know, like sites or blogs that are in London. And so he's kind of connected. So he's putting himself back on the map. And so I, so he came up on my radar and I just kind of like started following this.

And again, this is all. all open source. Alaki started a blog. I think it was like on warholaki.com or something like that. And he's blogging and he's blogging. And so I'm like, so the funny

thing was, so you think Muslim American, you know, Muslim American, like, we know all the imams or whatever. Like I, I did not know of Alaki at the at the time. I was not, even though he was, so he was, he was well, relatively well known in the Muslim community among certain segments.

especially the immigrant Muslim because he had lots of like speeches, like benign speeches, like not radical, like even in the early 2000s, right, before he kind of went the other way. So he was a well-known figure. But then he gets radical. Then he sort of goes to Yemen, blah, blah, blah. So, but I wasn't very familiar with him. So what I start doing is I actually start checking out the stuff that he had written.

Before he went to prison, his, you know, he had this one lengthy lecture called Constance on the path of jihad. And so all this stuff is available. This is like it's on YouTube. It's all available. So I'm just checking out like, what is he saying? And this is before he went to prison, like these speeches. And so I'm listening to them. And then when he's out of prison, I'm listening to these interviews that he's given. And it's pretty clear that he is setting himself up to recruit Western Muslims. And now in these interviews, he's not saying, oh, you know, I want to recruit for bombing, blah, blah, but he's saying, you know, he's coming, he's coming out, and then he's like talking about certain things,

getting very more political. He's, you know, saying things about, you know, Muslims in the West. And so he's doing those interviews. And then his blog, his blog, he starts going all out. And his blog, so this is like 2009. So basically, I mentioned this because,

so like this was a period where it's like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm following this. I'm writing about this. I'm like, I think in our, Vault, like I became like the guy who's always talking about Al Lockhe. You guys always talking about Al-Lawki. And because I'm seeing all this content that he's pushing. And then I'm trying to remember.

Yeah. And then at one point, Fort Hood happens. And I'm trying to remember if I had switched accounts. I may have switched accounts. I don't remember. But when the Ford Hood Hood killing happens with Nadal Malik Hassan, if you all remember. And Alaki blogs. Alaki's blogging.

He's blogging from Yemen. And he blogs headline. Nadal Malik Hassan did the right thing. And Hassan was allegedly inspired by him, right? Exactly. So because what was happening was he was reading. People were reaching out to him. He was reaching, and he had his whole, like, you know, and all these speeches were basically that.

They were basically radicalized because a lot of the themes were, because he had this one thing where he would say, like, you know, don't, you know, because in Islam, it's really big, like, listening to your parents. Like, that's obeying your parents, listening to your parents. That's like a high principle as a Muslim. So there are young people that are saying things like, my parents don't want me to go and join, to go to Afghanistan, to go to Iraq. My parents don't want me to support this, blah, blah, blah. So he understands that.

And in his speeches, he's saying, no, but when it comes to this, you can, you can disobey your parents. You know, he's basically trying to recruit. he's and he's telling them do what you can go wherever you can i mean he's all these things that we we hear we've heard i'll ake you say and and isis you know get really about you know um proficient about radicalizing people and so i so um i just mentioned that because that was a very sort of special i think case for me because seeing being able to get inside really his mind and the mind of the folks he was trying to recruit for me that that that was like the perfect you know that was that was i was made for that yeah and um understanding and

But the way it is, so the funny thing was that then I left. I like, so he became much more known like the underwear bomber. By that time, so I went to a different account. I mean, you know how it is. You know these things. Like you work on account, then they move you and you go do something else. And later I did go to Afghanistan for TDI. But when the underwear bomber had happened, I wasn't working on him by this.

So basically, by the time he got super hot, you know, I was focused on something else. But I always bring that as just an example of, you know, yeah, that was that was the perfect case for me. And I got a lot like radicalization was something. I wasn't, you know, NCTC had a radicalization branch. I was not in that branch. But because at this time, radicalization was such a thing that the government was trying to figure out. They were trying to figure out how do you counter it and how do you think about radicalization in America, right? because you had had a few things.

You had Joseph Padilla and you had Adam Godin, right? But then like we're really thinking about like, you know, what do we do to make sure? What can we do? Is it the government's, how does the government stop this? Or is it something that people and communities have to stop, have to stop? And so I was involved in a lot of those conversations, even between community members and the U.S. government, just, you know, trying to grapple with that. And if I can, I think I will pause a bit.

Before I will, I mean, I'll say that maybe, I don't know if we should get into this, but going through that experience and seeing how we as a country grappled with radicalization, you know, during the time of al-Qaeda. And then, of course, ISIS and seeing those dynamics. And I was, again, I was part of those conversations where the thing I learned was that this is why when it comes to these dynamics, we have to be precise, precise in our language, precise in what we're talking about because here I am a Muslim

you know yeah I don't think Al Qaeda represents me I love my religion and I think these guys are wrong and I have no problem pointing that out and saying what they're doing is evil and and should not be condone I have no problem doing

that and when I talk about it I'm going to be precise about it I'm not going to be someone who's like oh this Islam thing is just about murdering people because no that's not that's not the case and that's not the nuance so so when dealing with threats, especially when we start talking about our own country, we have to be very careful. And we have to be very precise because you start lumping people based on religion or based on politics.

I mean, you start saying, they're all terrorists. Like, whoa, it can get very ugly, very fast. And so that's just something I've reflected upon of late. Jason, you got anything? Yeah, I agree with that last part, absolutely, about being very precise. because I think also too if we're seeing if we go back in the the individual history of people who are radicalized there obviously again we talk about fork in the road there was a fork in the road so there's a lot of things we have to take into account such as their age their gender you know like we know there are things going on I have grown children and two of which are daughters my two bookends my oldest and youngest so even when I talk to them when I would talk to them I had to take into account their age, you know, they're going through their hormones, they're going through this and that. So I have to be very precise, especially with my daughters, about the things I would say,

because it could push them one way or another. So you, let's just say you're going out into the community and you're talking to these younger Muslim kids, you have to be precise because now you're coming from a governed perspective. So now you have ones who may have been taught not to trust the government, just like not to trust the police or you know so it's like a police officer going into a neighborhood where they don't trust the police you know they're just seeing a badge and a blue uniform and um but what you have to do and it seems that you're you're very good at it is taking that government piece away from it while it's still in the background and saying hey i'm a fellow Muslim like you this is you know this is my perspective on it now the choices is yours and um and i think that's a a great thing that's a great thing that's a great thing that's a that you you kept that in mind while you have your CIA hat on and your analyst had on you also have the Muslim hat on and that went into everything that you did yeah if you know what I will add though something that made me sad or I mean so something that I wish it'd worked better

and this kind of kind of relates to me doing the podcast um so after so obviously when you're so there were those meetings that I had and some engagement that I had like, like I said, right, with community and government at some point. You know, just it wasn't my main job, but I was able to do things like that. But, but, you know, for the most part, obviously you're not talking about your work. And so when I was working for the government, I, you know, I didn't, wasn't a big profile, you know, I wasn't on LinkedIn, et cetera, et cetera, back in those days. So you don't really talk about it like publicly.

Like, like obviously in your intel, you're not talking to the press or anything like that. So when I left government, 2012, and then by 2015, when I'm, like, working in jobs, which are more public, like, in the think tank world, I mean, that's kind of, I've been in that world, mostly, right, for the past, you know, eight years or so. The thing that the thing that I wish it had to work differently is that, so after I left and I started to be public about my job, I mean, about my previous job, so I can now talk about it. And so I could actually technically do more because I could be former CIA or former counterterrorism analysts and I could, you know, like maybe go and speak and, you know, do things like that and go to college campuses and the like. And I had another friend who was an ODNI who was an analyst as well, who was a counterterrorism analyst who actually similar background to me. And I can introduce you to him, a friend Mohammed, who's African American, also worked CT. and Muslim. And it's funny because he also, you know,

he did a career, then he left, he's doing other things. And he was actually working on radicalization, counter radicalization efforts. And we decided to team up. We were like, you know what? We should, we should, you know, it'll be good. We should like go out more and, you know,

maybe go to like college campuses and, and, you know, go, you know, interact with the community and, like, maybe just have a panels. And we did, we did a couple of these, like, panels where it was, us former you know former CT guys Muslim and we're talking to some people in the community and actually you know answering questions and stuff but that was hard to do man it was really hard to do not for us but we wanted to do more of that but by this time this is like the 2015

2016 2017 we're trying to do this and unfortunately the conversation about radicalization terrorism had been so like became a toxic, you know, polemic, polarizing thing where so many in the community were like, oh, that's counter, that's a CDE, that's counterviolent extremism. That's just the FBI trying to come

and, you know, put you in jail or, you know, I mean, it became very tough. A lot of people in the community did not really want to, you would think that maybe, you know, we would be on the speaking. Nah, man, a lot of, a lot of, that's the thing to me that I was

disappointed in and maybe I should try to do more but I don't know I think we kind of got the message that like that was very sensitive and that unfortunately because of certain certain views you know people didn't necessarily want to have I mean it's funny because I guess when we were in government like government can sort of facilitate things but then when it was like we're doing stuff on our own and like just reaching out and there was just there was just so much baggage about this counterterrorism stuff and this radicalization. stuff and oh if you even just want to talk about it you're just trying to you know get the FBI to come come after us and it actually became a hard conversation to have and so that's one thing I wish

you know there had been more I had been able to do more of and that was actually a question that I'd had earlier in your lead up to joining the agency and your early years in I was going to ask what kind of if any pushback did you get from either family friends you know things things like that. Did you have those who said, why would you even consider doing something like this? You know, remarkably not as much as maybe some people would think. I mean, because first of all, I mean, as you, as you know, right? I mean, applying. It's not, you're not broadcasting, you know, to everybody when you're applying, right? But and the people who knew, like, when I went to the application were actually, yeah, like my friends who knew me in college, but who knew me well and had seen my growth and were like, oh, yeah, man. yeah, yeah, we get you.

So, and again, because my friends were not like, they were very understanding. And so I didn't get any, any pushback here, even from family, really. I think people were very mature and they saw what I was doing. And so I guess, I guess my circle wasn't, wasn't radical. So that's probably the other thing too. But, but that's not to discount that.

So I'm applying, then I get in. And again, I'm not broadcasting it. Even in the Muslim, even though I'm still like, I make, you know, Friday prayers or whatever. You know, I'm not showing up and be like, hey, I work for the CIA, right? So most people don't know. That's kind of a conversation stopper at the boss. But the funny thing is, well, obviously it would come up sometimes, right?

I mean, you know, people that you know closely. And so some people didn't know because, I mean, hey, you just don't need to know. It's so funny. Some people thought I was still teaching, right? They had lost touch and were like, oh, are you still teaching? I'm like, no, I'm not a teacher. anymore. I'm working for the government. But, but, but what, you know what's interesting?

So I did tell some people, you know, like people close to me and, you know, and the funny thing is that, well, sometimes two things happen. So one is having some interesting conversations with these friends because they had a lot of misconception. So here's one perfect one I'll tell you. So I remember one. So, you know, I had joined and, you know, I'm keeping, I'm updating. You know, I'm getting together with a friend who hadn't seen maybe in a few months.

And I'm like, oh, you know, me. So, you know, I got this new job. I'm working such and such, blah, blah, blah. And this one friend, so he was kind of, he was like, what? Really, really, really? And so here's the thing. This is why it was a good thing to talk to him. Because his big thing was, he was like, so those guys didn't really do 9-11.

That was not, 9-11 didn't really. That was like some inside job or something like that. I was like, no, man, this stuff is real. Let me tell you, this stuff is. is real. This was not an inside job. You know, if it was like a whole bunch of people are really, you know, are really full. So I was able to, to even in talking, and this was a friend who, you know, who was African American, was Muslim. And so sometimes you would have conversations like that, where where you're able to talk to people about what's really going on, you know, all the

conspiracy theories that are out there and to dispel a lot of the myths that people have. So, so that happened. But you know what the other thing that happens, especially in the, DC area because obviously in DC like what percentage of the population has a clearance and it's it is probably working you know how many you know people of all stripes and the funny thing is you know in the situations where you know maybe I did share with people one you find out how many other people are working in those sorts of positions yeah and then you also find out people who like you would think like oh man oh maybe CIA but then you find people who are like oh man that sounds so cool I always kind of wanted to work there but I didn't know who to talk to and you find people who are

actually, you know, open to it. So, but, you know, there may have been maybe on the, you know, on the, you know, on the, you know, on the fringes, some people who, who found out. But, but, but I never, I never had had any, any issue. And I actually think because, and also maybe because of who, you know, again, not to, I'm not, because, you know, obviously you change with different jobs. And, you know, I probably wasn't as, as public. But, you know, I was still living my life, you know, mean living my life as a Muslim. So anyone who would interact with me would not, it's not like I was, you know,

changing my religion or anything like that. So I think maybe that helps for people to see like, oh yeah, he works for the CIA and, you know, and he's a Muslim. So authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you.

And so then after NCTC, you said you went over to CTC over to the counter, or CTC, the counterterrorism center. And you mentioned you did a trip over to Afghanistan. Yeah. So, no, well, the trip, I did spend some time over at CTC, but the Afghanistan TDI was not specifically CTC. It was with the near east.

I mean, technically it was the near east. I was still at, you know how things are when you go on a rotation and you're still there and over, you know, but so, you know, I don't want to get too complicated, but I was still at NCTC, but then I did this TDIY, which was through the, the Near East, the Near East, the Near East, South Asia, analytic office. And so that was 2009.

And so there was a lot of prep, you know, because again, I wasn't an Afghanistan focused analyst. But then for that TDI, I spent some time over at Nisa. Then, and then, you know, it's funny because I was supposed to be in Kabul. And then I think it was the last minute, you know, a few weeks beforehand, they had changed and said I was going to go to Kandahar. So I spent 90-day TDIY at the. out in Kandahar, the Kandahar airfield.

So I was, you know, I was there for pretty much that time. I have a lot of, you know, I mean, you're, you probably have had guests with so many more exciting stories. I mostly, you know, maybe unfortunately, now I wish I had done more. But, you know, I was mostly behind the, you know, stayed behind the line. I didn't, it didn't go out, go out much when I was in, really when I was in Kandahar. But my role was, I was an analyst.

And so one of the key things I did was just. you know, providing that sort of analytic support to senior officials, senior U.S. military officials that were based there, briefing them, you know, a couple times a week. And that was, I mean, so here's a, here's, you know, getting to like the religious side of things. So here I am in Kandahar and I'm at the airfield. You know, at that time, this is regional command south. This is, you know, you know, Canadians, Dutch, you know, all types of folks that are stationed there. and again, bringing in the religious side.

So guess what? You know, I'm there. I'm Muslim Friday prayers. I was like, oh, where's the Friday prayers? There's Friday prayers on the base at the airfield.

And it was interesting because it's all like, it's military personnel who are Muslim, American, Canadian, plus the staff, you know, like the people, the people working in the kitchen staff and some of the

contractors. And we're all there. You're, you're praying together Friday prayers. I remember when I, when I arrived, it was a Canadian who was like Egyptian Canadian. He gave the, the sermon. So he sort of led the prayers while he was there. And you know, interestingly, when he left, and I actually did that a couple times, but before I left, like leading the Friday prayers. And so I would,

I could, I could tell those stories. And I talked to family like, like, first of all, they had never thought about Afghanistan. And I'm like, so here I am. And it's not all the truth. So it's also. the Afghanistan experience, my experience, it's like there's a military side of it. Obviously, I'm seeing a lot of it around me, but I'm also interacting with other agencies. I'm interacting with USAID, State Department. You're learning about the reconstruction that's happening in the different, you know, in the different provinces. And then to tell people like, yeah, you know, I was, you know, I met there were soldiers from the UAE that were on the base at one time that I would see, you know, at Friday prayers. And we're all, we're all together. At one point, there was a rocket. I mean, there were

rocket attacks all the time, but at one, there was one rocket attack that did, that took one victim while I was there. And it was actually a contractor who was, I think he was African, actually. He was like a, yeah, like one of the, one of the food contractors. And so, I guess the big, so again, I never sort of, again, especially talking to, you know, you all as veterans, because people say, oh, wow, you spent some time in Afghanistan. I'm like, man, I did. 90-day T-D-Y, other people there for a year. You know, I was very, very brief. And but some, there were some lessons for me, especially when I came back.

And I know you all are, you know, just familiar with that, that feeling you come. When you're in a war zone for, you know, even for just, you know, a few months and you come back. And this, I came, I guess it was 2009. You come back and it's just like, the world, like, folks don't even know what's going on. Like, we're at war. And it's so separate from everyone's everyday experience. And I guess that's that's a good thing. But I'll never forget one young analyst who got there before me was she told me how,

you know, I think I was like, I had just gotten there. And, you know, and most of those rocket attacks, they hit the airfield. You know, they're just, they're just trying to launch stuff and just, you know, try to take out a plane. But usually they just don't, they don't hit anything, just a little crater or whatever. She told me about how like her first week there, she was on the airfield and one land it boom, like just very close to her while they were, you know, getting on the plane or whatever. And then just for her, again, she's an analyst, right?

You know, most of us analysts. We're sitting behind a desk most of the time. And I think that's one thing about those war zone deployments, which I kind of wonder, I'm more removed now, which you don't have as much of, right, for obvious reasons. But that period of, you know, going into war zone and then, you know, hearing about, you know, you see you actually you're seeing the rocket land right near you and it just sort of hits home for me it kind of hit home like okay these guys are trying to kill me you know this like i mean you know it's not theoretical like this is you know they the taliban want me dead you know they want me dead um

and so it's things like that i remember just sharing with people that if they didn't have that to the ability to talk to someone who's experienced that who shares maybe some some some some common background, you know, it all seems so far away. And the discussion of it is so removed and people have their just different ideas. So that, that, that really did, you know, that, that, that really did impact me. But so, yeah, I mean, those experiences, I mean, it's, it's kind of tough to. So my, I mean, let me also like, because I'm sharing all these great experiences. But, you know, there were, there were some tough, I did have some tough.

parts. I mean, I'm painting this picture of everything was good. It's so funny. My CIA, so it was like teaching was the toughest job I ever had, right? Tougher, tougher than CIA or NCTC or anything like that. But I will say that the time being at the agency was a highlight, just career highlights in so many ways. One of the greatest things, just a career, like, you know, I had the opportunity to brief President Bush in 2008. And I'll never, I'll actually never forget how, how that how that happened so yeah tell us yeah okay so i mean it's funny when i how i found out so this is 2008 so i'm going to afghanistan in 2009 i was going to deploy in 2009 so in late 2008 um is when i had to do my weapons training so like block training and then m4 training you know like two separate

weeks i had two two times to do that and i forget which training it was but so i'm so i'm so i'm so i'm at that location where you where you where you where you do that training so as you know when you're there. So I'm cut off, right? It's not like I'm checking my computer. I don't have access. So I'm just there for like a week. And but sometimes in or yeah, anyway.

So and then so at one point I get a message. Someone comes to the room, to the classroom. And they hand me one of those, you know, pink, you know, while you were out slips like from a secretary would have. And it just says it's like, yeah, yeah, call the office as soon as you can. We need you to brief put us. week. And I'm like, oh, really?

So, you know, I go and I, you know, I found, I go to whatever the admin and I call. And so this is, so what am I doing? I'm about to, so I'm still at NCTC and I'm still working AQ Homeland Threats, even though I'm about to do this TDI. And so this was, it was going to be President Bush's, I guess like his farewell visit to NCTC, because he's lame, he lame duck, it was late 2008. I guess, yeah, it must have been after the election, probably. And so he's going to have like one final visit.

And so they, so they basically asked a few analysts to, you know, brief him on like their portfolios. And so I was going to brief him on, you know, threats to the homeland, like the particular things that I was following.

And so, so it's funny. So like here I am at the training. And I'm like, oh man, it's next week. So I didn't really have, I mean,

I couldn't prepare while I was at the training. And, and then like the next week. So here's, it's just so. And like, stories like this, I totally forgot about this until, until bringing up this story. So, um, so let me tell you about the day that I briefed President Bush. So this, so I didn't go to the White House.

He's coming to NCTC, right? And you all, when you're an analyst, you actually, you hate when like these, when like the president or vice president comes to, out to these buildings, because it's like everything's a lot of, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, it's like, you can't go anywhere, you know, that block every, you can't go to the bathroom for like two hours or whatever. So usually you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, You hate it. But so,

interestingly, this, the date of him coming was actually one of the Islamic holidays, the Eid, one of the Eid holidays, Edel Adha, which is one of the two main Islamic holidays. So,

so funny, I went to the Eid in the morning. So I'm wearing my suit before I go to work. I go to the Eid prayer. And then, then I go straight to work. And so it was just nice to like a Muslim African American CIA officer moment. So I go to,

So I go to work and then, you know, there's plenty of time. And then, you know, when he comes, I wonder if I should share this. I mean, it is come on. Too late now. Let's go. So this is, so this is, I am going to share this. It's kind of, well, it was funny back then. And it's still funny now. But now it would be like, now it would be taken out of context. So I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you the funny story. So anyway, so we're waiting until there's like, I don't know, how many of us, you know, five or so analysts. And, of course, like, you know, a few managers. And so anyway, President Bush comes in and, you'll sit down, it's a little bit of chit chat, you know, all the little, you know, back and forth with, you know, the high level people, blah, blah, blah, welcoming him. And then, you know, they say they're going to hand it over to the analyst to, you know,

basically, you know, brief him just real briefly, you know, like, you know, just a few minutes or something. And then take some questions. So, so one person comes and they do their briefing and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the cool thing, I mean, you know, President Bush was very down to earth, you know, as many people may not know, or very, very down to earth. So he, when you get up, he asked questions. I remember this one analyst. She was from Texas originally. So, you know, he's talking about Texas and stuff. And so when I get up, so I get up and they introduce, oh, this is Yahia Finucci. And I think he says something like, yeah, yeah, yeah, what? Or something like that. You know, and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, finucis. He's like, oh, where are you from? Like, oh, I'm from California. You know, my father is originally from Sierra Leone, blah, blah, blah. So I brief him. I do my thing. He, you know,

then he asked a couple questions, you know, and I remember one question was a tough question too, but he asked, he asked a couple of questions, you know, and it was good. And then he,

his ending, he was very, like I say, Bush was down to earth. So basically, after I finished, he said, he said something like,

he was like, good job, brother. You know, it was, it was, it was, it was,

it was, it was total. Bush. It was total Bush. Good job, brother. But it was, it was all in a good way. It was a very like, like I said, today it might have been kind of out of contest. Like, but back then it was like, that was, it was, it was, it was, it was cool. It was, people didn't know what to say that he said that to me. I mean, it was kind of funny, but it was, it was, it was an interesting. We, we had a secret service agent on here one time who, uh, protected, uh, W. And, uh, he said, he'd seen the president like slap secret service agents on the ass and got, give him like a good, game. Yeah, that is very, very, very much like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that that was, man, that was a highlight, you know, um, you know, a highlight of my career. I never got to brief President Bush, I mean, President Obama, but I did brief his cabinet, um, like, especially during the transition time, like the people who later on, um, you know, would become, you know, like John Brennan and Susan Rice and stuff like that. Um, but,

But you have those, those were highlights. I mean, really great experience. And even that time in NCTC, like I mentioned, a lot of people talk back then, talked bad about NCTC. But here's the thing that I, that I enjoy. Every agency and the CIA folks, DIA folks, FBI folks, everybody, DOD, I'm sure everybody knows this, right? Everybody thinks their agency is the best and they hate the other agencies and they think, oh, you know, they don't know what they're talking about, blah, blah, blah.

And especially the analysts, there's always that going on, you know, when you're coordinating on papers and oh, the FBI, they don't know what they're talking about, and they're probably saying the same stuff about the CIA. And so there's a culture. Every agency has its culture. The cool thing about NCTC that I found, because when I was at, you know, like headquarters, like headquarters is headquarters as, you know, right?

Like, it's very, it's, it is what it is. And then I'm going over to, you know, LX, different location, NCTC. And because at that time, One agency can't dominate. So when I went over to NCTC, I was working like everybody around me, FBI, FBI guy, DIA, DIA, DIA, DHS, NSA. Like, we're all in the same team. We're like literally all in the same team.

And for me, that was refreshing because it kind of, every time I would go back to headquarters, it's like, everybody just kind of like they kind of think they're the stuff, you know, especially in the D.I, you know, DI folks at that I don't know how it is now but one thing I would say you know just being I just got to be honest I found that in the DIY people often take to take themselves very seriously um you know at least that's that's what I saw and so I think I felt yeah you know I didn't like that as much and so over at NCTC because you have all these different cultures mixing agency cultures mixing you get to me it was just a more fluid it was more I don't know it was more of a less constrained constraining environment.

So, so yeah, I enjoyed, I enjoyed my time. And there was at one point, even on the CT mission, where I felt like, man,

this stuff was, it was very fulfilling because, you know, when I made that decision, right, because it's funny, it kind of depends, like so many things.

It really depends on the moment you're in and who you're around. Because, you know, I had colleagues who like, man, they hated that place. You know, they did their time.

And then they left. Um, but I, I think I had a good, you know, I had good supervisors for the most part and good, good teammates. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, there was a point in time where I was like, man, I really just enjoy this. I enjoy this job because now, I don't think, I think it would be, it would be tough to always do CT work for like decade plus. Um, but, you know, those, those few years or several years, I mean, it, it was, to me, I felt like I was, I was tapping into something of myself. serving my country, serving, you know, serving, yeah, serving my country, serving the people around me, you know, and again, tapping into my faith, my faith tradition in a way where, you know, I feel I was defending my faith in many ways. And also the fact that, I mean, because again, I'm not some

special person. Like, there's lots of people of different faith in, you know, in, you know, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, et cetera, the Hindu, you know, to know that you can. just be who you are and work in those environments is is is a good thing now did i deal with any issues and challenges the answer is yes um the answer is i yeah i did deal with some some difficulties which actually led to me to leave if i had to be be honest i know that's like a whole can of worms and i mean what kind of dope i want to open the can of worms yeah uh let's uh i mean what happen. Man, I had issues. I had issues during my second reinvestigation clearance, man, to be bluntly honest and put it out there. What were the roots? So what happened to me was,

and it's so funny, you know, when people, people usually don't ask, so it's totally fine and good that you ask. And for a long time, I sort of felt like, you know, the question of why you leave the agency or why I left the agency. I kind of felt it was like talking about why you got divorced. Right. In a sense. It's not a happy story. You know, at least, you know, at least years ago, I kind of, I kind of, and someone told me,

this is totally unrelated to like agency, national security stuff. Someone was talking about when you do get divorced, when you find, like, let's say you had a, whether it was a bad, like, let's say a bad divorce or something that, you know, it's a divorce, so it's bad, right? And someone said, the moment you can start talking about it and you talk, you don't talk about the partner, you talk about what you did about you, that's when you know you've gotten over it. So I think I could, so I think taking that, I had a challenge because I made it administrative error in something that came up during my, you know, my reinvestigation. And it wasn't anything that was, you know, at least at the time, didn't seem like,

was a big deal. It wasn't anything. And it's nothing like, nothing that would be interesting to like the public or to the New York Times or anything like that. Nothing like, oh, he, you know, leaked information, nothing, nothing like that. So, so I got into a situation where I had made so an administrative error that when I discussed it and brought it up, it sort of brought more scrutiny. I mean, I'll just be honest. You know, you, you, you admit something that maybe did an error or maybe, maybe we weren't sure it wasn't, maybe we're sure it was wrong. but then you talk about it. You're like, oh, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

And it actually led to some scrutiny in my process. And it led to, yeah, it actually led to me, yeah, led to me leaving because of the difficulty I had in that sort of reinvestigation process. And I will say, sort of in hindsight, I will say that, like I said, I say from the beginning a mistake that I made. And why did it, why did it not turn out right? Why did, you know, why did I not stay and why didn't things sort of, you know,

especially if it wasn't a big deal, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I was young. I wasn't that young. But I think I learned a little bit about when you're in those situations, there's a way that you can deal with them where it's like, you know, Okay, boom. This happened. And, you know, I made a mistake. This is how we can fix it. There's a repudiation process, right? There's a repudiation process. And you know, in this process, you have some ways to appeal and you have some ways to, you know, plead your case, et cetera.

I mean, there's so much, man, it's, I don't, I won't, I won't go into the gory details because it is, it is, it is, it is some, some disheartening stuff. but the key thing, the key takeaway, I think for me reflecting on it during that process is you can have an approach where you're like, you know, this is really wrong and, you know, you guys, you guys are doing me wrong and like, you know, you're wrong. And I'm, you know, I'm sticking to my guns and you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And that's an approach. And I think that's the approach I took in my process. And I don't think that helped me. And I think, Um, I think if I had gone used that, dealt with that process differently, maybe, um, and I was more, again, I guess maybe more, I don't know, conciliatory is not, not the word, but, um, I think I was a little bit too defensive in my approach. And, um, I mean, it's funny, like you're, it must have felt like you were under attack at that moment, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so that's why I say so, so, so this is a decade, this is over decades.

So if we had talked a decade ago, man, I would have been fired up. I mean, there were so many, I went through so many. I mean, the friends who know me like this, it's so funny because there's like people who have who, who know what happened, you know, my family and people close to me who watched me go through that. Because remember, this is like, I'm briefing President Bush in 2008, you know, I'm going to Afghanistan. I'm doing all these things. Then I get caught up in this seemingly like just weird administrative things. and then it turns into something bigger and it's like all this scrutiny

and it's like and it's you know what the the toughest part and this is the part which you know I'm sure those of you you this is probably answering a lot of questions when you listen to the podcast when you listen to the Jabari Lincoln Files like I'm basically because it's funny because

there's so I tell people that the podcast so this spy thriller it is a fictional story with some real listic elements or real elements obviously episode one for those who have listened to it. I mean, it drops you right in it. And it is, the protagonist is a CIA analyst.

And he is under scrutiny. And he's under scrutiny for something like it's in a weird situation. And he feels like he's under attack. So I will admit there are some realistic elements. Yeah. But obviously, right? But, I mean, it's so funny because why did I write that? It's, that's where the story starts.

but that's not where the story goes. That's a jumping off part. It is a fictional story. It's not, it's not just me and it's not just a pseudonym for me. Yes, there are some elements that I'm drawing on. But what I realized is like, you know, that was a decade ago.

So sometimes maybe you're writing something and it's sort of therapeutic and you're like, you know, but you can't, writing shouldn't be, if you're going to write a real good story and it's for the audience, it can't be therapy for you. So like maybe you can't, you a little theory starts out of therapy but i realized pretty soon that now if i'm going to tell a spy

thriller it's got to be about the story about the characters um but i will say i mean because i don't want to i don't want to dismiss what what i went went through i will say that um it's so funny getting back again to things that happened because so even though things didn't work out for me and the process didn't work out in my favor um and i had to you know I did other things in the Intel world. I basically left that and I was like, I'm never working in. I'm never going back to you.

And it's so funny because I didn't want to do anything in national security. As you can imagine, right, going through like the ups and downs and I was like, you know, I'm not, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to have anything to do with this world. But with time, you know, time and distance and also seeing that, you know, I hate to. be like, wow, you know, things just end out, you know, like they should have. I mean,

no one can take away that experience that I had, right? I will always have that in my memory, the things that I did, the people that I work with, those friendships that I made, those, you know, those, you know, that can't be really taken away. And then, and I, it's so funny because outside the career, I've had really a second career, um, which, which interestingly is like it's drawing on things that don't come from the agents, don't come from the classified world because when I left, so when I left, I was actually hired. So it's so funny. And I'm not going to name the person. If this person, if he listens to it, he knows who he is. But there was a senior person within, you know, who is a senior person

within the U.S. national security infrastructure who hired me out of all of this, right? Who hired me out of, you know, when I, you know, when I left and I worked for a, I worked for a, doing some work doing illicit finance research and financial asset recovery. And so the interesting thing is that, so I'm fresh out of the I see, fresh out of the intel community. analyst. I'm used to like agency systems, classified stuff. And I get hired on this project where this, this company has assembled a team. And our job, our mission is to investigate and find assets that have been stolen through kleptocracy. And this was, this was our job. It was a small team. And I was the analyst. And so, so I was hired, you know, and thankfully, you know,

from this person who, you know, I had a relationship when I was on the inside. Now, you know, he hires me on the outside. And I, I now have to sort of pivot because we had this job where we don't have anything classified. We're not, you know, government officials. We don't have a, no, there's no badge and guns here. But we have to try to figure out where these assets are using open source tools. And this was like the opening for me for a new sort of, a new career because I'm still, I have the analyst Intel mindset, but I don't, but I don't have those old tools, except for that

sort of open source stuff, right? I was, I was really back when it wasn't big to do open source. I was doing open source. So I have that. And so I learned basically how you could use tools, open source tools to investigate finance, to find assets that might be hidden, to find front companies to learn the typologies of money laundering, trade-based money laundering, all these different little things that illicit actors use, I learned them out of the agency because I was doing this work not, not, not in government. So this was my first job. And it opened me up to like a whole new, so the illicit finance stuff that I talk about now

and that I'm mostly speaking about and writing about it in articles, most of that was gain, even though if you listen to the Jabari Lincoln file, that analyst he's a financial intelligence analyst right so i'm sort of bridging the stuff that i do you know now with the stuff you know at the cia but i wasn't doing that at the cia that's why it's a fictional story and you know i can talk i can make up stuff because it's not you know it's not stuff that i actually worked on um can can you talk about any of these investigations you did trying to like i guess we're talking about like government embezzlement cases and things like that yeah and we're talking about at the time when um you're

had foreign foreign corrupt governments. Yeah. Foreign governments that would have like money in Swiss bank accounts. So you just imagine situations like when a, like a foreign government, like let's say when they get deposed, right? And so now people are trying to find those stolen assets, those Swiss bank accounts and those other assets and yachts and all that stuff and bring them back to, you know, hopefully to the people that they belong to.

So it was doing those like international investigations and tapping into like what are the databases that you would use. how do you learn about, you know, how do you learn about front companies and, you know, what are, you know, and the lesson I guess I learned is that, so the wonderful thing about, like, finance and business is because of what it is, there's a record for everything. So even if it's a false record, it's still a record. And a false record gives you a trail, a paper trail. So it's all about putting those pieces together.

And any business transaction, there's a record, there should be a record of it. Even again, even if people, you know, so. So, you know, yeah, they're trading, right? So maybe they're doing stuff with cash, but they got to send stuff from one place to another. There's going to be, you know, there's going to be documents, custom documents, et cetera. So I got into this world of illicit finance as really my second career. And I mean, were you able to recover any of this money? No, I mean, I know that it's a very tough field.

I've talked to people in the past. I mean, that's extremely difficult to repatriate stolen funds. Yeah, it is. And the thing I will say is that, unfortunately, I wish we could have done more. We didn't get to, so we, the, the, the contract sort of, you know, I didn't continue working on it. Or, you know, so, so maybe that's all I can say. But it was a great experience for while it lasted. But, but, but yeah, I'm not sure what I can say. So that's why I'm dodging. That's why I'm dodging. So I have to listen to listen to your podcast and try to put the pieces together. what you're telling me. Yeah, yeah, maybe so, maybe so. But yeah, but that was that, that was, so I had that experience. And then, and then so I'm, I'm learning about this other stuff.

And then I get, I get, I get, I get another opportunity to work at a think tank. The Foundation for Defense of Democracies had basically is National Security thing tank in D.C. And they had stood up this thing called the Center on Sanctions and Illicit Finance. So I get hired. there. I'm the director of analysis. And so here's the thing. This is like an interesting thing of just pivoting and not knowing what's next because I go from that one project we're just talking about to now think tank world. And think tank world is public. Think tank world is you write articles. You talk to media. And I'm kind of like, it's so funny because I remember they were like,

so you know, can we please, you know, so on your bio we put, you know, you know, former CIA, like, no, no, don't. I don't want that on the website. Don't put, you know, this is like, like 2015. I'm just like, no, no, no. Can we put it in the press release? I'm like, okay, in the press release, but don't put it on the website. That lasted for about six months, because it took me six months to realize, okay, yeah, yeah, I got to get comfortable. I can now talk to press. In fact, no, we want you to talk to. We want you to talk to reporters. I was like, are you sure? So the think tank policy world, that's what it is. You're engaging policymakers. You're engaged in media. You're doing events. And, and so this is where,

where it's like, I'm now no longer in the IC bubble. I'm not in the intel community. And I probably can't go back because, you know, I've got relationships with reporters. And that's just my world. It would be, and I like that that I'm free to, you know, to do all these things. I don't have to worry about things I'd worry about in government.

And so, and honestly, I could be a resource. And it's so funny because I can write things that could be useful for people in government because, hey, I'm doing research on my own. So this is like 2015. I'm working at this center on sanctions and illicit finance. And this is a learning curve because even though I had done this investigative work, now I'm dealing with like a different dimension, which is like more policy side of it,

things like sanctions and sanctions evasion, which I hadn't really dealt with so much, things that Treasury does. And again, I wasn't a Treasury analyst. So this is all new. And I'm like trying to find my way. So I'm actually, you know, I'm writing some paper.

and following, I'm learning about sanctions, you know, doing some stuff on terrorist financing, writing some reports. And then I'm thinking about like in 2015, 2016, I'm learning about Bitcoin. And I knew nothing about Bitcoin when I was in government. And so I learned about Bitcoin in 2015, what Bitcoin is. And I'm intrigued because people start saying, like in the media, they're saying, there are these reports basically saying that terrorists are going to use Bitcoin or ISIS. This is like, you know, the big thing was like ISIS is going to use Bitcoin.

And these were claims. These were reports. But I could never verify it. And again, I'm an old DIY guy. I got to look at the source scene. I got to, you know, I can't just regurgitate what people say, right? And so that stuck in my head, Bitcoin. Bitcoin is an interesting thing.

I wonder what there's a, if there's a relation. So over the year, I'm hearing a lot about crypto and terrorist. But there's never any proof for someone who's outside of government to like see what's happening. right i mean i just i just don't know so 2016 i'll never forget summer of 2016 and i have my these two interns and i get a report um some media report and i think it's from some some publication in the middle east and it basically says there's a terrorist group that is using bitcoin and this was actually it's um actually is a gaza based group that was designated it's not Hamas, but it's like a different, this consortium of groups in there.

And so, so I read the headline. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is probably just another thing where we can't verify. I hand it to my interns. I say, you know, check this out. I'm going to go to lunch. And then, you'll see what you can find. I'll come back. It's probably nothing.

So I come back to lunch. And my millennial interns, you know, or maybe Gen Z interns, they showed me the Twitter page of this campaign. And the Twitter page, well, this group, they were on Twitter. and they would always change accounts, you know, but they were still, they always get up on Twitter. And they had an infographic. They posted. And the infographic had a QR code.

And the QR code, once you scanned it, brought you to another web page, a browser that was the Bitcoin address that they were soliciting funds to. And this group was actually soliciting funds for weapons, for missiles. And they had the graphic. It was like, all these different missiles. Wow. Yeah, it was, I mean, I have, I have photos. That's pretty bold. ball. Oh, wow. Oh, no, it was exactly. I mean, man, I mean, if I can even show, well, I can even show you the graphic. Like I took a screenshot. I've saved it for years. I even use it in presentation sometimes to show because this was significant. Because once you looked at the address on this on the blockchain browser, basically is what they call it. You can see what they have received. You see the content. You see how much Bitcoin is in that address. And you can actually see like when the, the transactions were into it.

and when the transactions were out. And this was the first time I'm seeing anything like this. And so I took a step back. That was like, wait a second. Wait. So this is a terrorist group seeking funds. And I can see the funds they've gotten. And I can like watch if any if anyone puts funds like this is this is phenomenal.

This is a, you know, this is great for investigation. This is wonderful for for trying to follow them. And I was like, because you wouldn't get that in the old school banking terrorist financing where You have no public view into what they're doing, right? So this was the beginning of my exposure to blockchain analysis and crypto analysis and looking at what bad guys are doing with crypto. Because what we did was we said, okay, let's learn all we can about this address. Let's study it. Let's every day, you know, we made a Google doc.

Okay, let's see any new transactions. What can we know about these transactions? What can we tell? Can we figure out where they came from? Now, when you look at this blockchain record, you don't see the names. You don't see who the people are, but you see the wallet addresses. But then there's things you can do to identify, like, well, where did the transactions come from? Maybe you can trace it to an exchange where they bought the crypto before they sent it in.

And that's what we could do. And that's what we did. So this became a research project over the next couple of weeks. Then I wrote an article about it in 2016. And so I think I described it as this is the first publicly verifiable terrorist fundraising campaign with crypto. Not saying it's the first time terrorists use crypto because maybe they've been used, you know, maybe they tried using it before. But this was the first time where we could, you know, we confidently can say this is the group. They have this pattern.

They've been using this Twitter account. This is them. And this is, and they're posting this and this, you know, and they're receiving transactions. transaction so we can publicly verify it and we can write about it we can talk about it no clearance needed this is a new this is a new world yeah it's a whole new world so i got into that's what i started to look at i mean it started looking at terrorist financing with crypto but then other issues started to develop by like 2017 you have rush 2018 russia is sort of thinking about using crypto for sanctions evasion at least they're talking about using it and thinking about it's

like political. They don't really have the means to do that, but they're, they're thinking about it. Iran similarly is thinking about how crypto could be a way for them to transact without going through the banking system and to evade sanctions. So this is like, so 2018 and 2019. So I kind of feel like

so in my career, I've always found this this joy of like, I get bored if everybody is already looking at something. Like if it's on the front page, like I'm not interested in it. It's like I'm very intrigued by, well, what's next?

What are these actors going to do in next year, in the next five years? Yeah, you want to solve the puzzle for yourself. Exactly. You know, otherwise it's like it's boring. And it's so funny because that's like the CT world, even though I started as a economic analyst. When I joined the CT, I was like, man, I like this so much more because you're on the edge. You're trying to stay a step ahead. Where with some of these other like political analysis and economic analysis,

it's more like you're reacting often. I mean, you're still trying to predict, but you're kind of reacting to the data and the things that are happening. With CT, like you're trying to stay two, three, four, five steps ahead. But anyway, that, so that was, so that's where, so this is like 2016, 17, 18. So I started to look at financial technology and learning about things like blockchain technology, learning about things like digital currencies, and seeing how do, how do they relate to national security, either risk, national security competition, what is China doing? China is something that I've been looking at a lot.

So I've taken, so I've been out of the intel community for over a decade now, but have been able to, you know, thankfully, thank God, I've been able to still follow my like interest, my analytic interest, still doing research, still doing analysis, and think about things that impact U.S. national security in a whole new realm, stuff I never touched on when I was in the agency. So like I say, I call it. It is a second career.

And the podcast, the Jabbar and Lincoln files, it's, if you, you know, it's funny. It's like the culmination of all these parts of my life. The CIA part, you know, the, the financial technology part. The Islamic and the spiritual part is in there. You know, the family, you know, I mean, the family is not my family. but it's just like, you know, the connection to family. All these things, you know, I feel like I'm summing up into one entertaining, you know, entertaining stories because maybe I'll pause after I say this, which is being an analyst,

you're writing all the time and it's all nonfiction. It's all, you know, it doesn't have to be dry, but it's, you know, it's facts and figures and assessments and all of that. And I've done that for so long. What I didn't mention to you guys, I can't believe I didn't mention this. I mentioned how I was into hip hop back in the day listening, but I also was a lyricist myself. I was rapping when I was in high school and college. I used to freestyle. That was like my pastime, you know, in my college days.

And I did a lot of creative writing. I did poetry. I wrote, you know, I did poetry performance and I would write poems. And so I always had this like more artistic side. And so, but I'm spending all this time doing, you know, writing that's not artistic. And so this podcast sort of started with the idea of bringing, doing an artistic, you know, telling an artistic tale that could tie in all these policy things, all these national security things, but to do it in a way where it's fun and it's engaging and it's like a whole new world. That's what, that's what the podcast is. Yeah, I was I was going to ask you, you know, how the podcast came about. Like, was this a COVID project when you're locked up at home for a period of time? Jason, you're,

have anything you want to ask before we move on you kind of answered it but i was going to ask you having been out of you know out as if we were in prison out of the i see now for for a while um when you see these things uh happening on tv the news whatever it is from uh what's going on in the middle east to small town things when you see these things do you look at them from an analyst point of view because you have that embedded background, or do you kind of parse it out? Look at it from an analyst point of view, from a Muslim point of view,

from, you know, just you point of view. Or like with me, I, because of my time, I've been out since 2015. It's like I see things and I guess having been a, you know, being a dad and having been a husband and all this other stuff, I look at things from that point of view, but I also, I can't help it. I also look at it from an intel point of view.

Do you find yourself doing that? Absolutely. I find that, again, you can't take, I mean, you just said it, Jason. You can't take the IC out of the man, right? Even if you take him out of the IC, it's, so one of the key things is probably the thing that keeps with me the most. I mean, it's, I mean, like there's that the top level, kind of superficial, which is like you think about maybe, you know, like what you would be doing if you were there. There's that. But you know, for me as an analyst, the thing that sticks with me the most is actually

verifying information and seeing weaknesses in like what is presented. Because as an analyst, you're always dealing with, okay, what's the truth of the matter? What is what do you have confidence in? And also, I remember even before the CT, actually I will credit my original economic analysis work because it was a lot of really, it was mostly political economy, but because you learned a lot about media and how media is, especially in other countries, and you would see disconnects. You would see what's really happening and what media is saying is happening. You would see different types of media in different countries and how they're not always reliable. And you would kind of get the sense of like, wow, you can't just like rely on what the news says or just what, you know, what a politician says.

like you kind of have to like take it all in and see what's what like that's as an analyst as an intel analyst that's what you do and i find that i do that on the outside that when issues come up current events i i think the thing i notice and this happened as social media got bigger it's really worse with social media because it's like social media i just realize it's like man like there's just a whole bunch of just nonsense that people are thinking off of and it's like people aren't really thinking critically. They're not really thinking about, they're just really going with headlines and memes. And you know, you can't do that.

You can't base your understanding of something based on headlines, what people say. And I think there's a lot of that. So I think that's, I mean, you don't have to go to the intel community to come to that conclusion. But because, like, you're really trained to think that way, it actually gets, it gets hard. And sometimes I feel, sometimes I feel disconnected. I mean, maybe you, you too as well, Jason, like, because. you feel, and you too, Jack, it's like, because you, you know the dynamics like of security, of national security and like you sort of, you know them. You know, you know how certain, you know,

there's, yeah, this might be happening in the current event, but there are all these other considerations. And I think sometimes it makes it hard because sometimes people are just reacting to headlines. And, you know, so I'll share, I'll share one thing. Like, this is a good example. This is, this is kind of raw because it's happening right. now. So I'm going to share this. I haven't shared this, this at all. And it's going to get like, I am not an expert on Israeli-Palestinian conflict, right? It's never something that I, that I focused on. I'm a layman. But so I will say something that my analyst, my analyst antennas are, are pinging up on. obviously we live in very, very, you know, just volatile times.

There's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, you know, divisive times and the like. So here's something I've been thinking about recently. So Hamas attacks happen, attacks on Israel, you know, killing, you know, murder, et cetera, et cetera. And then so, you know, so, you. you know, and then of course Israel is responding. And in our, in the social moment,

this is becoming like a big thing on social, social media. It's, it's, it's a huge, I mean, it's, it's just a huge, huge thing right now. Everyone watching this knows. So here's, here's what, what is concerning me as someone who followed CT a decade plus ago. Um, so you're hearing, they or seeing things where, like let's say protests, protests are happening. And you know that when you have protests, you have all types of folks come in, right? You got some folks that are, you know, really trying to voice their concerns about the situation.

They want something happen as, you know, they want to change the situation or whatever. They're voicing their complaints. And then you have ideologues who are, of all, who've just been waiting for something they want to pounce on. So I saw this one protest where there was this banner and the banner said, resistance is not terrorism. And so, but what are they saying? They're basically saying, Hamas can do this because it's resistance.

And that's just a straight playbook with that terrorists have been saying, that al-Qaeda ISIS have been saying, well, groups have been saying, basically, you know, that the ends justify the means. and my concern is that so because I'm coming from the CT world, it's like, I'm seeing that. I see that dynamic.

I actually see how that radicalizes some people, right? Because this geopolitical thing, they're seeing it through this, this lens. And once you're looking at it through the lens of resistance, mean, you could do anything. I mean, that's, again, that can be a radicalizing force. I'm concerned. It's kind of hard for me to talk about this because this is such an sense. sensitive issue and other dynamics. I'm not talking about the dynamics of the conflict. I'm not talking about what needs to happen. That is not my lane. I am talking about that there are forces out there. And Al Qaeda and ISIS have already put out. They put out statements saying, okay, boom. All right, this is our fight. Muslims around the world, boom, you guys get started. That has happened. They've already put out those statements. I am not here to tell the, I'm not here to sort of scare the audience and say, oh, people are going to rise up and that's what's going to happen. I am. I am.

saying that these are dynamics that we got to deal with, we got to check, we got to be aware of. So this is, I know I'm getting a little heavy here. It's important for people to hear that. And I appreciate the fact that you started it by saying you are not an expert

in the Middle East that this is your opinion because too much of what we've seen is whether it's YouTube or whatever, social media on the news period. We get people who have done certain things and I won't say, you know, you know, whatever they did.

Now they're an expert. And if people would start more by saying, I'm not an expert in this, this is the way I see it like you just did. I think it would go a long way. And I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah.

Opinion. Isn't it, it doesn't it seem like social media is just like an opinion factory and that everybody's trafficking in opinions. Yeah. But they don't counten his opinions. They don't say the word opinion. So it's fact in their mind.

And there's those. listening to them. Yeah, yeah. So that, that, and that's hard as, as, as, as, as, as, as, you know, as an intel guy, it's like, man, you know, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, I don't, that's not helpful because when, um, so when, um, so when we had the, the, the, the, the, the radicalization, you know, during the height of al-Qaeda and then ISIS, you know, in, in, in those days, it's funny, because, you know, these are the arguments that they use in their propaganda. And so I kind of feel like we've been so removed. I mean, it's so funny. I mean, maybe it's just a cycle because, you know, you sort of, you sort of felt like, yeah, we had to come to a place. I mean, obviously, I mean, so the jihadist movement, again, although I'm not tracking the, you know, jihadists, you know, like back like 10 years ago. So again, I'm not an expert on

like what aQ is doing today and senior leadership, et cetera. But I know enough to to know that the movement is still there, you know, especially in Africa. Africa is like a rising place. I do know, you know, just from observation, right? You see places like Burkina Faso. You know, I was in Ghana in the 90s. Burkino Faso was like this calm, peaceful, like nothing was there. Nigeria. I mean, so I went to Nigeria.

I was in northern Nigeria in the 80s, early 80s. Peaceful. Muslim, Muslim North. Probably less, you know, probably more peaceful than the South, right? It just shows you how, how these. these things are changing and evolving. And in my mind, that's a good sense because actually there's, there's a good part, which is like a lot of people, because they're learning about all

the stuff now, they see, they see Nigeria. They see the middle, well, you know, all these things, they're like, oh, my goodness, this is, you know, but these, you know, these places, Nigeria has been Muslim for a long time, you know, or Burkina Faso has been Muslim for a long time, you know, this stuff is new, you know, ivory coast. You know, there have been pockets of it, but, but, you know, if it was, if it wasn't always there, means that maybe it can go, you know, it's, it's not intrinsic. It doesn't have to be, you know, have to be there. But so these things are, are there. And I think, um, because terror, you know, I don't know, maybe because terrorism has not been on the news as much. And it's,

it's taken aside, you know, it's in the back seat to other things. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, hoping and praying that, you know, we're not going to go into those old days. But, you know, If I think, I think what, what I'm more concerned about now as a layman as just a regular citizen is our dialogue as we talk about these things, the slogans and the terms that we use that we really have to, we really have to be careful because. Be precise. You know, that earlier. And be precise. Yes. Yep.

Yep. Goes back to that. Dee, if we have any questions, can you, could you tee those up for us, please? I actually sent messages. Oh, you sent them to me. You did. Oh. While you're teeing it up.

While you're teeing those questions up, I will answer your question, Jack, about, because I think you asked how did, was it how the podcast started? Oh, like, was it a COVID project? Yeah. So, so here's the funny thing. And this is, this is how I changed from a few years ago. So remember how I said a few years ago, I was, if you would ask me about my agency experience, like it would have been kind of raw for me, at least the ending of it. Well, so a few years ago, oh, so here's something maybe you all don't know. So I had an older podcast, 2015 to like 2018 or so. Yeah. So, so my first podcast, uh, is called Rhythm of Wisdom. And Rhythm of Wisdom is, it's similar. It's a storytelling podcast, but it's all true. It's actually true stories that I'm recounting. And it's, it's me. I mean, it's, it's not a pseudonym. It's me talking about some of my experiences. Um, I'll send you guys the link because, you know, since the Gibrii-Lincoln file is, is, is waiting for season two. Maybe you can catch up on the rhythm of wisdom. But rhythm of wisdom was my story. I started writing it. It was just a creative outlet. And those, those episodes are available today. They're still up. But what I decided at

one point was, I decided I was going to try to write a memoir, right? You know, like, you know, I think it's a little, now I'm looking back and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's just a little self-absorbed. But I actually was thinking of writing a memoir. And I put together a book proposal and I talked to a couple of literary agents and, you know, typical is, you know, that you don't always get the green light or they don't bite. But I talked to a few literary agents who thought I had a good story because I had the proposal was like the first chapter and, and I was going to write a book. I was going to write a memoir and was going to be interesting. It was going to be about my life. And the first like two or three literary agents that I pitched it to past.

And I think that's just natural, right? maybe got to improve the proposal, just not write time, whatever. And these were like, oh, this is a great story, but I just can't take it on. It's just whatever. And so, so it was, so was, so I, so I was, so I was, so I was, so I was, so I wanted to do. I wanted to write basically a story that would be about my life, you know, a, a non-fictional account. And at some point, because I think I got some of those, well, wasn't that wasn't the, wasn't

just the literary agents. I went to this. podcast event in Philly and it was this podcast conference and I pitched that I was I pitched my my story like I read my story and I was it was like a pitch competition and and and Audible was and I did very well and I did very well and you know people were like oh man we got to talk to you we want to you know maybe you could do something for Audible blah blah blah blah blah blah and then just one thing led to another and it just didn't work out like Audible changed its thing and just it just went nowhere so I was frustrated

I was like, man, I think I got a great story. I think this should be a book, you know, and, you know, I could write this. I just need, you know, blah. I just need somebody give me a chance, you know. And so it's just interesting. I don't know where it happened. But at one point, I was thinking about writing the story. And I was like, you know what?

Writing the story is going to be hard. It's going to be tough because I'm going to have to, you know, it's your personal life. I was just like, you know what? Why don't I just scratch that? I think I want to write a spy. I think I want to make something up. And so that was the birth. It was just me like, you know, dealing with the disappointment of, you know, the book

proposal didn't go right. And I was just like, you know what? It would be more fun. So this was in 2019. So it was before COVID. I started writing it. And I thought at the time that I'd be done with it in like six months. And it took like a year and a half to write.

And so through COVID, COVID probably helped because I wrote it through COVID. And then I did the production. You know, that took. took more time. So it went through several edits. So yeah, it was a partially COVID project, but it was really like me figuring out, you know what? Let me just do let me, let me be creative. Let me write something fictional instead of writing about myself. And so now I'm like, even though we spent whatever two hours talking about me and my life, because honestly, I, you know, I prefer to be in the, if I could just disappear and the character, Jabbarre Lincoln's could be

what people connect to because to me that's more fun. Like my time is done. I had I did my my my my agency stuff. The Jabbar and Ligin Files is like that's I think that's the story. That's the story world that I want to live and I want to share with more people. Yeah. And I hope people will go check it out. I'm halfway through the podcast series right now. I got to finish it. But the links right down the description where people go to go take a look at it. And because it follows, you know, the spy thrill or the adventure is from the point of view of a financial terrorist analyst. It has a totally different vibe than other spy thrillers. We've had some guests on the show.

Even just recently, we talked to the author of The Peacock and the Sparrow, the author of Moscow X, good books, great people who were agency, case officers, and analysts. But I think the Jabari Lincoln files has like a totally different perspective because of your background. And I hope people will go and check it out, because they will get. like a very different perspective on a spy thriller. Thanks. So I'm going to hit up a few questions here.

Eric, thank you. KX says, if I'd ask your opinion of the book, the Lumen Tower, and also if you're aware of Zawahiri's KGB training, that's a new one for me. But do you have an opinion? I don't.

I don't know about the KGB training. That sounds interesting. Was that like before he was in prison? I would assume, I guess. Because it sounds like something that could have happened in the 70s, but no, I've never heard about it. And the Luming Tower,

I never read it. I remember when it came out, because I think it came out, like maybe before I got into CT. I think that's like early, like mid-2000s. But I don't think I actually read Luming Towers, but I do,

was it, well, I guess the person can't, I forget who it's by, but is it Peter Bergen or somebody, but I never, I never read it. So,

okay. And it's kind of funny, because when you, when you're doing something, CT like you don't you don't read a lot of the open source stuff at least i didn't read a you know like some book i read more before i went into CT than uh while i was doing CT um Sierra star says congratulations on your success and achievements thanks for sharing your story uh then Isaac asks uh I read tracers in the dark on how the IRS and private company found criminals by tracing

crypto purchases and wallets. So is there any way for people to make private purchases online and in real life? Also, besides living off the grid, how can someone gain privacy and anonymity? Like for a spy in China or a corporate whistleblower in America or someone hiding from a violent X, what should they get for communicating and for staying invisible in real life or online? And should they structure or evolve their OPSEC? what should they do for researching staying up to date so i i guess the the the thrust of this question is about privacy and what can the average person do to to keep their communications private

yeah yeah i'm i'm probably not the i don't have a good answer except to say that the this the viewer listener you're right on the money with something that a lot of people are trying to do um so there they're probably i'm sure there's probably been other guests who probably can talk more about the obsec, right? Like certain, certain apps, messaging apps, encrypted apps are better than others. You know, a lot of people talk about Signal that, you know, but again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the expert in terms of what's going to be the best tradecraft. Now, you started talking about crypto. And so there's two sides to this story of like Tracers of the Dark is a book. Actually, I've met the, that I've talked to that author. And I recommend that book because that story talks about

how IRS criminal investigations went after these illicit actors that were doing stuff with crypto, they traced those crypto transactions. There's a double-edged sword on this because privacy is something that we need. I actually think because I've done a lot of research on China and what China is doing with its economy is becoming more digital and it's come up with a digital currency, which is going to be really provide data to the government. So I'm seeing this happening in China. You're seeing this development.

And crypto, you know, because it doesn't belong to, it's not, it doesn't belong to anyone, you know, it offers a way for you to have your money in a way that somebody can't necessarily take if you have it in a certain way. I, I, the caution that I have, though, is that you have to be careful because who else exploits? I mean, you, obviously the bad guy. you're trying to exploit the privacy too and privacy tools. You have tools that have been used, which are just for preserving privacy, like privacy mixers and crypto. One thing that happened recently, there's this really one that became very popular called Tornado Cash.

And it's got a lot of liquidity. People were using it to make their transactions private. At one point, guess who also wanted to make their transactions private? North Korea. And North Korea started exploiting this Tornado Cash mixer. So much so that U.S. Treasury came down and sanctioned the mixer itself. Yeah. Put a designation on the mixer.

This was something that has never before happened because the mixer itself is really just, it's not a person. It's a program, you know, it's smart contracts. Now there's some nuance there because DOJ is going after the guys who were behind it. And I probably shouldn't get into that. but it's more complicated. But I guess the moral of the story is that this is the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you're, you're actually on the pulse of something that I think is actually going to be a critical question for our society because there should be privacy, right? We should not have to live in a way where all of your data goes to the government. The fourth amendment, we have the fourth amendment for a reason, you know, there should not be searching seizure, you know, by the government. And so if we're going more digital and your data is available, How can we live like that? Right. And I actually think that we're in this moment,

we're sort of like in this moment, almost like in 1776 or 1787, where we have to figure out what's going to be the way we protect our privacy. So I don't have the answers, but stay on the pulse. And I think there are people actually trying to develop ways for private transactions. But the key is you also have to figure out, well,

how do you keep the bad actors from using it too? That's where, that's the big issue. Somebody, oh, sorry, Jack, to interrupt um you're familiar with shannon uh former agency she does not down your life um if you go to lock down your life on instagram she is a former good friend of mine former agency um she uh specializes in security and privacy and it says protecting privacy profit and peace of mind um security online safety slash oson and investigation so she might be somebody that can help with that as well and somebody you might even want to hook up with she's she's really good at her

stuff. So it's locked down your life? Lock down your life. Yeah, on Instagram. And James B. asks, not sure if he's allowed to answer. How did analytical methodology evolve over your time in the agency? How did it evolve? I mean, yeah, I mean, what can I?

So, yeah, it gets into a whole ball of wax. I guess it depends, you know, yeah, I'm not sure what I can say. I mean, I think it's, I think I can make the general observation that, you know, well, what has evolved, you know, just think about what has it just evolved generally in terms of, I think I sort of talked about it when I was talking about open source. Ocent, open source intel is, is huge. And it's so funny because I think that's where I was like back in like 2008, 2009. It was kind of weird to like be doing stuff, you know, I think and so be so into open source. Whereas now, I mean, the open source is probably. And actually let me just speak. I'm speaking. I'm speaking. not from knowing because I haven't been in there for 10 years.

So for 10 plus years. So what I imagine is going to be so different is just the availability of all these sources. And Ocent, so Oson has become like a respectable int now, right? It's a respectable form of collection that has its own trade craft. You know, there was, I actually put together, I have my own like spreadsheet of all these Ocent tools, which are probably outdated by now. I mean, I made it like, you know, several years ago when I was doing a lot of these investigations. Bellingcat has a very good, um, Belencat organization.

They do a lot of investigative reporting. And they have like a Google spreadsheet that has like all these OScent tools that investigators could use. Um, so that's, that's probably a big thing. But, you know, I think you just think about the all the things that are new, just assume like, AI, I'm sure is shaking up the game, you know, um, uh, you know, um, uh, you know, social media that you know social media becoming bigger like all the what of the things that that you see but the basics in trade i mean all of that though i think in terms of analytic methodology you still have basics basic basic sort of analysis like the things that you would do to um check your assumptions

and uh and certain techniques you know i'm sure certain tech there are like this is not classified because i mean again i i love talking about stuff that because often i've like written presented on it and i've gotten it cleared, you know, like there's, I think online, there's like a structured analytic methodology from the CIA, like an unclassified open source version that at least used to be out there a few years ago where they have different analytic techniques that we used to use that are that, that, you know, have been written about in the public. So I know a lot of that stuff is still there. But yeah, just think about how, how technology is changing and that'll probably help. We got one last question from Gen 3, Kali. He asked,

to what extent has the relationship between Zaxaki and Iran contributed to the rise of Islamic extremism in Nigeria directly or as a geopolitical locus of contention between Iran and Sunni jihadists? I don't know Zazaki. Zazaki used that from, is that the ISIS guy? I don't remember. I don't know either, I'm afraid. Okay. It may be because because, you know, there was, there was Boko Haram and then the ISIS, the West Africa. African ISIS. Maybe that's the guy. I'm not sure. But, but no, because you're, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know much about Iran and well, especially Iran and Nigeria. But that's, I mean, but, but the only thing I would say, which I kind of touched on is this concern about what's happening in Africa. I mean, you know, I think there are plenty of other experts, military generals who've,

who've been pointing this out. I mean, other experts that that's where the jihadist movement has had this this new life. I mean, I remember when I started seeing things like Mozambique, right? You know, Mozambique, I mean, again, Mozambique, again, has always had a Muslim population, right? Right there on the Indian coast, you know, the Indian Ocean, the coast of Africa. But then, and in the Congo, like the, you know, jihadist groups in these areas have become active. And again, I have not been, I don't follow these movements as part of my day-to-day job. But, you know, so we should, I think we, we, we, we just have to be vigilant that, you know, the world is, you know, continues to be a very, a dangerous place. You know, these, these problems aren't necessarily going away. If I were to say something like,

especially to the viewers who, you know, I mean, you meet, you know, you meet a Muslim in counterterrorism, right? And it's like, you know, they're, you know, we're not, you know, I don't know, maybe you wish there were more or something like that. But I think the thing I will say is that that's why I mentioned what I said about the U.S. and how we, I'm concerned that we don't let things, we don't let things get worked because the benefit of the U.S. has been, you know, we have had our problems. We have had lone wolves.

We have people join ISIS. We've had radicalization definitely over the past decade plus. But at least in the U.S., we have a little bit of a buffer because we've had such stability. And the Muslim community is integrated and is, you know, thriving. And you think about it. People talk about 9-11. oh, is it bad to be a Muslim? Since 9-11, you have more mosques. You have more Islamic schools in a very flourishing good way. And so life to be a Muslim in America is this is a place where you can

live your religion and be a part of the fabric of our community. So I think that that's good. And so, you know, if I can do anything is is to, you know, hopefully, you know, promote that and to have that continue to exist. You know, I think maybe that's the message I would end on. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been an awesome interview. And I mean, do you have any final thoughts? Anything I really failed to cover or anything else you want to plug before we get going? You know, I just want to say, I mean, well, I appreciate you, you guys. I mean, this has just been a great conversation. I didn't realize we would, I was like, maybe an hour, 15 minutes, but you got me to just talk. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be on this program. It's a great show.

hope everyone is subscribed and all that. Thank you so much. And the listeners, those questions, man, I really appreciate that people are asking, you know, that they ask those questions. And yeah, I think I would just plug, give Jabari, the Jabari Lincoln files a try. You know, it's on all the platforms, you know, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Audible, etc. So really looking for people to listen and give it a review. And if anyone needs a final push, you get to hear Yaya rap at the end of the episode. I did not know that part. I haven't gotten that part. yet so you're lucky we're running out of time because i was going to make you spit right now oh man

we'll be yeah oh we're running out of time uh oh darn you don't have an instrumental so it's like jack beatboxes so you know next time i guess i guess i got to prepare for the yeah the next one exactly you got to warm up your vocal cords for that uh well thank you thank you again man really appreciate you spend some of your friday evening with us Again, I hope people go check out the Jabari-Lincoln files. I'm looking forward to finishing it over the next week. Next, this coming Monday, we'll be back here with Brad Thomas in studio. So we're happy to have him come on the show.

Yeah, yeah, again, thank you, man. And please stay in touch, man. We'd be happy to have you on again sometime down the line. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks, guys. Have a great weekend, everybody.