The Team House - Delta Force Operator | Brent Tucker | Ep. 235

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Brent Tucker served both as a Green Beret and Delta Force operator during his career. A purple heart recipient with 13 combat deployments to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and more. Brent Tucker started First Responder’s Coffee Company after training first responders and seeing first-hand the budgetary restraints and lack of resources. He also wanted the community to have an outlet to show their support for these brave men and women.Grab some FRCC here:https://frccoffee.com/---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Today's sponsors:Dark State by Jack SlaterBetrayed C.I.A operative, Jason Trapp, was a feared assassin and the stuff of legends, butsomeone sold him out and he lost everything and everyone. As America reels from thedeadliest terrorist attacks it has ever witnessed, Trapp’s personal vendetta leads him rightback to where he started: duty to his country. The violence, the terror, the assassination ofhis partner… It’s all connected.⬇️https://www.amazon.com/Dark-State-Jason-Trapp-Book-ebook/dp/B09NQJ37D3/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=Hello Fresh ⬇️https://www.HELLOFRESH.com/teamhouse50Get 50% off plus free shipping by hitting the link!⬇️https://www.HELLOFRESH.com/teamhouse50PIA VPNIf you want to enjoy all the benefits of Private Internet Access, now's the time to subscribe. Head to https://PIAVPN.com/TEAMHOUSE and get an 83% discount! Seriously… 83%! That's just $2.03 a month, and you also get 4 extra months completely for free! But you MUST go tohttps://PIAVPN.com/TEAMHOUSE---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------To help support the show and for all bonus content including:-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter:https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#deltaforce #jsoc #cagBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Teamhouse know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out, and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the Team House and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our team house. bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not-so-good review, why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations, Covert Ops, espionage, the Team House, with your host, Jack Murphy and David

Park. Hey, guys, welcome to episode 235 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy. I'm a, is it over here? Oh, sorry, guys. My phone was on. Apologies. So, episode 235 for the Teamhouse.

We're here with our guest tonight, Brent Tucker. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. First thing I just want to tell you guys real quick about sponsor of tonight's show, Dark State. If you guys are a fan of Tom Clancy or Jack Carr or Vince Flynn, which I know a lot of our listeners are, then you'll love Dark State. It's book one in the Jason Trapp action thriller series, which is available on Audible and Amazon Kindle. It's about Jason Trapp who has betrayed a betrayed CIA operative, who's a feared assassin, but someone sold him out and he lost everything and every one. And as America reels from the deadliest terrorist attacks it's ever witnessed,

Trapp's personal vendetta leads him right back to where he started, duty to his country. The violence, the terror, the assassination of his partner, it's all connected. With 15,000 reviews and an average of 4.5 star ratings on Amazon, the book is gripping and thrilling. If you're an audio fan, which I assume many of you are since you listen to this show, the audiobook really does bring the story alive in a dramatic fashion. So please head to Audible or Kindle and check it out now. You can get your copy of Dark State Book 1 in the Jason Trap series. So with that said, Brent, again, thank you for being on the show tonight. really appreciate you joining us on a Friday evening.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I truly do appreciate it. So again, because I got a little distracted in the beginning, Brent is a 20-year veteran of Army Special Operations. He served in 20th Special Forces Group, and then he served in Delta Force deploying to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. Today, he runs the first responder coffee company, and he's also the co-host of the Anti-hero Podcast. We're really happy to have you here today, Brent. And, you know, I'll kind of start it off from the top asking the same question.

I ask all of our guests about their origin story. If you could tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your upbringing was like, and sort of how that took you on a path towards the military. Yeah. I grew up in a small town in Florida, Sanford, Florida, working in a family business. We own, you know, Tucker's Farm and Garden Center that my grandfather started. That was, I was one of the first. on the few people who didn't want to leave my small town. I just wanted to work in the family

business. My, I feel like my path in life was already set, and I was more than happy to go down that path. I definitely wasn't an adrenaline junkie as a kid. I was a pretty quiet kid. So definitely not someone you would have pegged for anything in the special operations realm or even leaving town at any point. So how did that happen? I mean, if you were on this track of like going on, taking over the family business. Yeah.

So the September 11th happened. I mean, I had, it's crazy. September 10th, September 10th, I'm 20 years old, you know, still chugging down that same path that I was on as a little kid. September 11th happened. And, you know, it changed.

It changed my world. It's the same way it changed a lot of people's world. I knew I wanted to do something. I made a decision that day that I kind of would make time and time again throughout my military career when I had to come to make a big decision, which was I didn't want to live a life with regrets. I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be 70 years old, looking back and said, man, when I was 20, our country got attacked. almost 3,000 people died and I felt like I should have done something, but I just played it safe and stayed my small town.

That honestly is the, I mean, there's the genesis right there, that line of thinking started it. I raised my hand. It took me till September 27th to actually signed the paperwork. And off I went. And I only meant to do is, you know, a four-year stint. And then come right back to my small town. And as the saying goes, if you want to make God laugh, tell me your plans. I couldn't have been any more wrong.

And I continued to be wrong about my career as it progressed. So what did you enlist as far as like your MOS? What was kind of like your plan going into the military? The one that God laughed at, of course. Yeah. When I knew nothing about the military. And I mean, well, next to nothing. would take me to air shows. My dad wanted to be a fighter pilot so bad, I guess, when he was in his late teens. Then eyesight got him. And so he didn't get a chance to chase that dream. So I definitely grew up in a military friendly family. You know, we watched war mood movies. My dad made us watch all the Vietnam documentaries and I loved it. So we were we were a military friendly family. But no one was talking about joining. And I had,

no idea what I was going to join. So a good friend of mine that I went to high school with, Jessica Butters, her dad was a, all I knew is that he was in the military. I knew nothing more than that. Come to find out he was a CW4 at a National Guard unit, a National Guard air defense artillery unit out of Daytona Beach. So he was the only person I knew So I went to him and said, hey, you know, a country got attacked

I want to do something about it. So I came to him. He gave me pretty good advice. He's like, hey, I'm in the National Guard. I think you should do that. You'll get a chance to fight. You'll get called up. But, you know, you don't have to go away for four years.

It sounded like a good plan to me. It sounded like I was going to get what I wanted, which was to deploy. And so I went to the recruiter that he recommended me to go to. And for a guy who wanted to join the military and fight, I got put in Air Defense National Guard, which may not have seen a lot of action. So that was, that was, it took me about a year to,

well, probably took, it took less than a year for me to figure that out. But, you know, figuring it out is one thing, but doing something about it is is another. So as soon as I got a basic in AIT, we did get mobilized to go to the invasion of Iraq. And we sat around for like six months in Fort Bliss. And at that point, we had a sister battery coming back from Afghanistan. And so I couldn't wait to talk to those guys to see what war was like. And I asked them, and they did like a 14-month deployment to Afghanistan. And I found out that- Was this a Patriot missile battery that you were with, Brent?

Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. So that would have been a part of the unit. Me in particular, I was in short-range air defense, which was Stinger missile. operator. Okay. So, or Stingled. Yeah, so shoulder fired, Stinger missiles, 14 Mike, which eventually became 14 Sierra,

because I had to go to the little bit longer course to do the, the Avengers, like that, that, that, uh, Humvee with the, the, the four missiles on each side of the turret. So that's a, the Avengers. So that's, that's what I went to school for. But when those guys went overseas for 14 months and came back, they just guarded the gates. That was all they did. They did nothing to guard the gates, which was my worst fear come true. I kind of eventually was slowly figuring out.

I don't think the Taliban has a lot of helicopters to shoot down. And I'm not sure my skill set will be utilized in the war on terror. So I asked those guys and said, hey, what, like, then who was doing things? And they told these stories that were probably a little bit true, but a little bit embellished. they'd be like oh man these special forces guys these green braes would come on to uh would come to our come to our gate with blood all over their humvees and i'd have to be like hey sergeant uh i need your IDs and they'd be like f you just open the gate and so i was like so what'd you do it's like well i opened the gate what did you what did you expect me to do i was like man uh and a part of me

it's like this guys kind of sound like assholes and the other part of him was like those guys sounded really cool. So I eventually found out about 20th Special Forces Group, which is a National Guard group. And that started really my whole first fight trying to do that because we were mobilized at the time, getting ready to go. And that was the nail in the cough. It was like, I don't want to do this. I want to do that. And so it's very difficult as a National Guardsman who's already mobilized and we went through the whole mobilization process.

And what, you know, we're supposed to be, even though we didn't leave when we were supposed to, they were going to just kind of hold us in this limbo as a mobilized unit they could call any time. And so we sat there for months at El Paso waiting for a call that never came. So I started fighting with my company leadership then telling me, hey, I want to go to Special Forces. I want to go to National Guard to 20th group. They kept saying no. They told me all sorts of lies. Like, well, you have to be an E5 to go be a Green Beret.

So you'll have to wait a few years. Yeah. I've been just talked to a few more people, found out that wasn't true. You know, I mean, just a 20th group when in a weird way, It has a lot of like with other National Guard units has a lot of myths, like surrounding it. And you're like, oh, you can't go to 20th group because you have to be, you know, an active duty special forces guy first. And when they come out, that's how they go to 20th group. I mean, just all sorts of things that just weren't true.

I eventually found, I don't know if you guys remember this. You guys remember the A.K.O. White Pages. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's how I found my 20th group recruiter. I went to the A.K.O. White pages, and I googled, 20th special force, Googled, I probably went, searched 20 special forces. And I actually found a recruiter number out of Ocala, Florida, which would have been the closest one to me. So I'm still deployed or mobilized in Texas. And I call them. And, uh, I still remember the guy who picked up because I ended up, he was a support guy there and was a recruiter. He picks up the phone, Sergeant First Class Kerry. And I was like, hey, I just want to introduce myself. My name is Private First Class Tucker.

And I want to be a Green Beret. And he asked me like two quick questions. Like, yeah, how long you've been? He was like, private first class, where are you at? I told him. He's like, how long have you been in? And I told him. And he basically goes, call me back in like a year.

And then it hangs up the phone. And again, I was like, man, these guys are kind of dicks. I think maybe I'm a dick, but that's like, I don't know. I kind of want to like, I love that. Like you're not good enough and you have to prove yourself. And, you know, this. Yeah, it's like, you know, not everyone, you got to come and stand out in front of the door and wait, wait your turn. Right.

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's not this. Everyone gets a trophy mentality. I can't, can't wait to welcome you. You know, I, you know, I, I, I enjoyed that. we we we we demobilized a few short months later uh i i called him right back um and talked to someone else on the phone who was a little more welcoming and told him my sob story and they said you know what come over here and do a uh do a small tryout and we'll and and we'll see um so i show up

knowing absolutely nothing to this small tryout i knew they told me to get ready to to ruck and do a PT test at least. And so I said, okay. And I showed up, not knowing anything, but knowing the, hey, like, all I know about soldiering is, like, boots and uniform matters. And I'm not a green beret yet, so I better show up with polished boots and a pressed uniform. And I did that, and I was immediately scolded for it and told to get into PTs and don't ever wear those around here again unless there's some sort of reward ceremony going on. And I said, okay, I like this place already. I did the PT test and the and the Ruck and I did very well on it. They said, hey, we want to bring you over to our program and send you a selection as soon as possible. Go back and tell your unit that you want to,

that you want to transfer over here. And that's where the real fight kind of started. You know, they had already been given me a bunch of, you know, slow rolling me. And now they just simply told me, nope, we're not going to send you. But like before the mobilization, we sent a couple guys over there. They never make it. You know, don't waste our time with the paperwork. Don't waste your time. We're just not going to send you over there.

So I carried that message back to 20th group. And the sergeant major laughed at it and said, hold on. I'll make a phone call. they can't it's it's I told you to do that but it's really not up to them so it makes a phone call I go back to work a couple days later they're like well you got what you want I hope you're happy we'll we'll see you in a couple months when you don't make it which was one of the best things they could have done for me because I absolutely trained my ass off I couldn't stand them anymore I did you know I had too much pride to get to

fight that hard and then, you know, have to swallow it and come back and tell them I wasn't good enough. I go to selection a few months later. I come back. I think I had to turn in some gear that I still had from them. And for whatever reason, I was kind of hoping that they'd be like, hey, we're wrong about you. Good job. You're like, the only guy that's ever made it. Instead, they're like, well, guess what? You haven't made it yet. You know, half the guys don't make the Q course, so you'll be right back. And that was the last time I saw him. And I'll tell you how petty I can be. When I retired 20 years later after the Delta Force, a part of me wanted to drive down there and and shove my 214 on their face and say, see, see what I did. But of course,

I think everyone there would have been. Yeah, they were like, who are you? I want to know who I was. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how I got to, that's how we got to 20th group. I was unfortunate. I was unfortunate enough to be smart, which means I got to be an 18 Echo. I put, after a selection, I put down the four MOSs I wanted. I put Bravo, Charlie, Echo, Delta. I sure said

didn't want to be a Delta they said congratulations you got you got your top three is what the guy told me and I was like what's that mean? He goes,

you're an echo was in your top three there's only four choices it was second to last is what I viewed it as there's two reasons I wasn't real happy about being an echo

is because at the time they had a longer Q course than Bravo and Charlie and so at at that time in 2002, everybody thinks the wars are going to go away if you don't hurry up and get over there. So I wanted a short MOS. Bravo or Charlie.

I wanted to try to clop out of Spanish and be in Afghanistan in, you know, eight, nine, ten months. I mean, the Q course is already long enough without the rest of that. Again, what I wanted never seems to work out. And I always have to just deal with what I got. So I got Echo. I stayed there longer. I tried to test out of Spanish. I missed it by like two questions.

And of course, the jokes on me, I didn't get to miss. Maybe I missed the deployment. So instead of 13, maybe I'd have 14 if I got out of there a little quicker. But yeah, there's a lot of war left. And really, I look back at that generation of Q-Course guys, and they were good dudes. Man, I'm telling you, I couldn't be, I still talk to some of those guys in the Q-Course to this day. They were such good dudes. And they went on to do amazing things.

And really little did we know that era of Q-Course students was really going to see 15 years of war after that, which really may be the most amount of college. combat, you know, any other generation was, was going to see. And we, we had no idea what, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, we're in for, uh, Brent, real quick, uh, sorry, real quick, we just need to, uh, shout out to our, to our two other sponsors from tonight. Um, a, so, uh, VPN, everybody should have VPN. Our sponsor tonight is private internet access or PIA VPN. Um, you should use a VPN, uh, and, uh, And PIA VPN has apps.

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Brent, I want to ask you a little bit about how 19th and 20th group are structured because we know that the different SF groups generally have, you know, are assigned an area and aligned to a particular area. How, like, how did they choose your language? How are 19th and 20th group, the guard units aligned? Yeah. At the time, a battalion aligned with a group. So third battalion, 20th group aligned with seventh special forces group.

So I got Spanish because our battalion was aligned with seventh. Okay. That's, yeah. The, well, which really kind of gets me to my days with 20 special forces group as a green beret. I was, I spent my whole guard time as a, you know, as a single guy, just being a guard bum. went from set of orders from school to school to deployment to deployment and just stayed active the whole time and I loved it I absolutely loved it as soon as I graduated the Q course I was on a C-130 down to down to Bolivia for for a month I had only I

only got to see you know the different ODAs in the company a few times and I saw these, I saw these guys on the dive team who were just, who were just better than everyone else and we're more than happy to prove it. And I, my senior echo on my first ODA was going, was going to dive school because he wanted to go to the, to the dive team. And, and by, by the second or third time, you know, we, we'd done some training together. He looked at me and goes, hey, you should go to die school too. And so I was like, I'd love to go to dive school. He goes, yeah, it's easy.

Just, you know, raise your hand. There's always slots. Go to die school. So I'm getting ready to go down to South America. And just like he said, you know, all he had to do is say you want to go to die school, and they'll put you in a slot. So I go down to South America. I start training for die school before South America.

As soon as I get to South America, I get an email back to AKO again. Again, an A.K.O. email saying that funding fell through and don't worry about, don't worry about dive school. And so I said, okay. So the next three weeks, I went on a very different training regime and partied my ass on and had a great time. We trained hard. We parted hard. It was a great first experience. In fact, that team I went down there with had, you know, their, their Bravo on their team. I went to the unit before me. Their 18 Delta on the team went to the unit as a medic before me. It was a stacked team of great dudes that were seasoned guys.

You know, they had all been to Afghanistan already and multiple trips. And they'd all been on the team for like five, six, seven years. So it was a great, great first trip learning. I was the only echo on the team. So, you know, it was a great experience as a new guy to have all the commo to fall on me. It was a real cool experience going to hotels and setting up a, you know, satcom, you know, PSC-5 and, you know, shooting out reports, you know, from a hotel room in different cities in Bolivia, just kind of in civilian clothes as you're traveling around. So just definitely a cool experience in that part. It's a couple days before dive school is supposed to start,

and I'm out a roadside cafe in Bolivia, and I get an email. It's an ATAR's notification saying, giving me details of checking into dive school. So I went to the, I went to the warrant officer on the team, and I said, hey, this is probably nothing, but I did get this ATAR's notification. And he's like, well, if you have an ATAR slot, you're going. Like you need to get on a plane right now and go to Key West. I was both excited to hear that. And also, you know, it like getting punched in the gut going, I'm not ready for this.

Let's hope by, you know, yeah, but there's a lot of things you can do with your 24. that you can't do later on in life. So I, not to make these stories long, but, you know, just kind of, you know, I get in a, a one-way rental car, and we drive like me and one other guy that was going to go back with me, drive like nine hours straight.

And there's these massive unrest going on because of the elections just happened and no one's happy with the election. and there's roadblocks everywhere. We don't, our Spanish actually wasn't too bad, but it wasn't enough to be by ourselves negotiating roadblocks. We just randomly gave people money that, you know, just kept on giving them money until they seemed to be less angry with us

and they let us go. We get to the airport and we landed on a military base dirt runway in the middle of the night. unloaded and left. So I didn't get my passport stamped. When I get to the, uh, when I get to the airport, we're trying to load up and the guy's like, hey, something's weird. You don't have a stamp on your passport. How did you get in the country? And I remember the last thing my warrant officer told me, uh, was, hey, if you get in any trouble, you know, here's, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the number to the embassy, call this guy. He's our fixer. And so I didn't give him an answer about how we got in here.

I just said, hey, you should probably call this guy first. And the guy told me, goes, I don't care who that guy is. How did you get in on our country? And you can go ahead and start looking at other flights because you're not getting on this one. And I was like, you know, okay, that that sucks. But, you know, call this guy. He walks away 30 seconds later. later he looks at me with disgust he just takes my passport and he stamps it and he says get out of here to this day i don't know who that guy was i don't know what he told him uh but you know just that it was at the end it was a very cool non-combat first experience of of being a green beret and just you know doing things that really is really unique to uh two green berets um

i end up i get a i fly right to miami um and check in to die school and proceed to have the worst six weeks of my life. Whole week was absolutely horrible. Like, you know, I quit doing breath holds. I was not ready for it. I was, I got dragged out of the pool, you know, almost every day and asked why, why I suck so much. And I just, and I remember calling my dad at one point and saying, hey, dad, we have, you know, The Q course has been a lot.

You know, just went on a trip down south. Now I'm in, now I'm in Dye School. It's just, it's really tough right now. I think I just need to come home for a little bit. And, and, but my dad is not the, the, the guy to, to cry on his shoulder. He's, he's just a very hard man. But, but I also never complained to my dad about anything. So I think my dad knew if I was calling him to tell him things were pretty tough right now,

He just said, do what you got to do, son. And I said, okay, I'll, I'll call you tomorrow and let you know. And every day, I showed up to the pool and had to fake motivation like I wanted to be there when it was everything I didn't want to do. And I never called my dad back and told him that I wasn't coming or was coming. My dad said he figured that when I didn't call back, he knew. And again, my dad's just a hardcore guy. So he's not he's going to call me and ask. what's wrong. That was just the odd random conversation we had. It was a fleeting moment of weakness.

I'll come back to that story here in a little bit because I tell on myself later my career saying, hey, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. And I'll tell you the one particular time, it was like the end of pool week and you're just, you know, you're just physically exhausted. And they put us in, and again, and part of us why it was so hard is because I, I wasn't ready for it. So, I mean, I'm not saying it would have been easy otherwise, but I definitely didn't help myself out. They put us in the pool and they're going to have us do these sprints. And they said, hey, and they told us to say, bring, bring two shirts to the pool this day. And so at the very end of the day, they said, hey, get one shirt wet.

take your brown shirt off, put them in both your hands, and that's what you're going to swim in to get to the other side of the pool, these two soggy shirts. And they said, pays to be a winner. First one to the other side of the pool gets to get out. And so everyone, you know, swam as hard as they could to get to the other side of the pool. And they didn't let anyone out of the pool. They're like, hey, but that's not this round. They send us back and forth, back and forth like 15 times.

No one gets out of the pool. And it sounds dramatic, but it's just true. Like, guys are getting fished out of the pool because, you know, they're cramping up. And they're giving it their all. And they're just, and I remember thinking, you know, looking to the guy beside me on the gunwale. And we didn't say it, but we both, you know, looked at each other and just, you know, I said, this sucks. Yeah, that that look at another guy's eyes when he's just giving it at his all. Yeah.

And yeah, we've all, we've all been there. And I remember thinking to myself, I got one more in me. And if they don't get us out of the pool, I'm quitting because I'll end up at the bottom of this pool if they send me again. So they send us again. I get to the other side of the pool. And I'm talking, I'm coaxing myself up. You know, well, this is, it's time. It's time to quit.

It's time to quit. And me and that guy look at each other one more time. And we both kind of shake our heads like, this sucks. And he goes, F it, I quit, and gets out of the pool. And I remember looking at him getting on the pool and thinking, you quitter. I can't believe what is wrong with you? Know that I was just as big as if he wanted to beat me to it,

I probably would have quit. And just like, do you remember watching him quit? Just disgusted. me and I stayed with a pool we went back and forth or six or seven times but I guess maybe he left me some of his energy on on on the way out super glad I got die school out out of the way early in my career like insert joke here but like like most divers I'm a proud diver and really really proud of that accomplishment the and it got me to work on the best ODA I ever worked with, the best group of guys. Honestly, I ended up having one of my best

deployments in my military was a 20th group deployment with that dive team running the commandos out of Afghanistan. We just, you know, just when a group of really good friends deploy together, have the same mindset, and just wanted to get after it. To this day, one of my, one of my, one of my best experiences in the military and die school is what it kind of afforded me that that possibility i you know it's interesting because i want to paint sort of a picture for people who may not understand earlier when you're talking about going to die school or you know the chance to go to combat diver school you know you said the the senior echo said there are always billets available there's always slots open and and the reason for that is because combat diver is

such a notoriously hard school that people don't sign up for it in general. Like, it is, it's one of those schools that somebody has to generally be really motivated to go to because it is such like a digger. I don't know if I'd have gone back. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I thinkfully, I didn't have to make that decision. I'd like to think that with a little bit of rest and, you know, I'd have got back on there.

I was really lucky in my career to have not have recycled. We'll get to it a little bit. There's one thing I recycled, but SF didn't hand that to me. And die school with it. I'm not saying the Q course was easy. By no means with the Q course easy. The Q course had really tough days in it. But for just an absolute smoke session, day in, day out.

you know, running red line the whole time. Dye School without a doubt was the hardest military school I went to. Yeah. So talk to us about that deployment that it led you into with the Kandak commandos. Oh, yeah. So we, um, I had, uh, I had, I'd been selected, uh, for, for the unit. Um, actually, uh, I, I got selected and I told him to, hey, we're on the verge of a of another deployment and I want to go back to this uh well I should say my second time at selection I get selected and and we're going I want to do this this deployment with with with with our guys this one last two are off you go and I told them that and

they they were like absolutely unit's not going anywhere go you know go go go go go go fire your guys I think they respected that so I go to so that was really cool in a weird way kind of being a made man and 20th group as a guy already selected to go to the unit and it was such a great mission um so we didn't have any air assets dedicated to us you know we didn't but we got a lot of aviation assets given to us by the battle space owner and how those deals usually worked was of course we're you know you know we're we had plenty of direct action targets that we collected the intel for and we you know we here's a here's a blast from the past if you remember terms like JPL targets. So we had our our list of JPLs to go after but

most of them required to do it properly, you know, aviation assets. And the battle space owner was interested in giving us aviation assets. But the battle space owner was actually a really a really good dude and he also wanted work out of us and smartly so he would give us assets if we would do missions for him and what he wanted from us was to take our commandos and do valley clearing operations for for his conventional forces which really was which is a great opportunity you know really for us too like and and he's absolutely right like that's the The commandos should have been at the very forward edge of those Valley clearing operations, you know, taking bullets that so Americans don't have to.

It's, it's their country. They're a motivated unit. They were more than happy to do it. They had a short shelf life. So if it wasn't, you know, I can't remember the exact hours. It's 48 or 72. And trust me, they knew what the shelf life was. It's even, it's in their charter.

And I want to say it's 72. So if, you know, if 72 hours is about to come up, they'll let you know, hey, our, our work's done here. This is, this is as much as we're allowed to suck. And, and on more than one occasion, for a unit that can't logistically do anything on their own, if they're on an operation, a valid clearing operation, than longer than 72 hours, they'll, they will find taxis to come pick them up in the middle of the world. All of a sudden, their logistical master. and can find their way back to base, but they can't find their way to a mission to save their life. That's even, I know I just said they were,

and they were a great partner force, but that's, that was a, that was a reality of them. I'm telling you, I feel like, you know, the more experience I got in SF, the more Robin Sage was real. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember being Robin Sage going, I have to show up and beg these, you know,

these fake Gs to let me in their camp and to in a fight with me. Like we're in the real world we're Americans with with, you know, with bombers and suitcases full money. No one's, I don't have to, I don't have to beg anyone to come fight with us. And there I am in Afghanistan begging our commandos not to leave us going.

I, am I in Robin Sage right now? This is, this is crazy. But sure enough, happen on more than, one occasion. But those valid clearing operations were great. They did suck. I mean, everyone prefers to get on a helicopter, hit a target in the middle night and not miss a meal

or workout. They could be trying, you know, even those are, yeah, and they're still considered short duration missions at three and four days. I'm sure there's some conventional guy listening to me whining about being out for three or four days. But they, you know, when it was cold, it was freezing cold when it was hot it was miserably hot and uh they would reserve the commando unit to go down the worst parts of the valley again rightfully so and that's exactly where we wanted to be but you know we did those valley clearing operations you know if they teed it up for us and they teed it up for us right then they put us right in the in the thick of things then we got to do a lot of good work um that there's there's a couple of really

really cool stories that that actually come from that particular mission, that deployment. We were the, and I don't know who keeps track of these stats. I remember them telling me, but, you know, adding up our, you know, the various kills you get as an ODA, and they, you know, they give you your cast, you know, kills and your small arms kills. And, you know, we were up in the, you know, high couple hundreds. and they said that we were the, you know, the leading ODA in country and kills, which really wouldn't have been hard. It's not, and although we were a really good ODA, it's not because we were

amazing. We thought we were. But they put us, they put us in a good area with the commandos. So we, we operated in all of the east, N2KL. I used to be able to tell you what N2KLs did for. I could probably get most of the, most of the acronyms. And it was just a hot spot at that time. So we had the right partner force in the hottest area of the country. One mission was a fair, you're not, it was a great mission, but it's not necessarily the one you want to get woken up for. Yeah, I told you that battalion commander was a great dude.

He calls our team leader and our team sergeant into the office. He was like, hey, I need you guys. and I guess he's, you know, he's teared up, you know, asking for this help. You know, my team sergeant's like, my team sergeant, Rick Spear, he goes, what do you need? You know, he's always given us aircraft. He's always been real, real good to us. He goes, what, you know, what's wrong, boss? He goes, my boys are hemmed up. My boys are hemmed up in a bad way. You know, we got, you know, we got double digits dead and double digits wounded.

and those numbers are climbing if we don't if we don't get someone there like right now and came back got the ODA said hey the you know blades are spinning we got to get there we if I remember right this is called Operation Bulldog Byte we were going to insert to the south of their location because they were still in a firefighter so they don't want us to insert there we're going to insert south their location and the Rangers were coming in we're going to insert to the north and we were going to and we were basically it was really going to we were supposed to meet them there together but everyone everyone knew it was going to be a race to to try to get to them first and and and help those guys out well when we inserted the ranger

47 had mechanical failures and they and they didn't insert so it was it was just us when we got there we got there right as a first line light was there. We got there a little bit later. We were supposed to insert in darkness. It was just first light. AC130 got there early to try to make sure that everything was going to be kosher for us.

And as soon as AC130 got on station, it started lighten off. And it didn't stop shooting. It was shooting while we landed. And daylight, when the 47s took off, it was still firing. And I remember looking. looking out to one of our guys, I'm like, isn't that weird?

He's like, what's that? He's like, I've never seen an AC130 in the daylight. He's like, yeah, that is, that is kind of weird. Come to find out, and heck, one of you guys may know, but it had to go up to like two or three star level approval to keep the Keep Specter flying daylight that low agent targets. I was going to say that almost, almost always AC specter would be like denied daylight ops.

Because it flies so low, you can see it. And they were worried that would have present a target for manned portables and stuff. But to have a AC130 during the day is exceptionally rare. And like you said, probably had to be elevated because the in-country commanders, like the Air Force, they did not allow that at all. Yeah. I'm telling you it was a weird sight seeing it. You know, you get to hear it a lot.

You know, it's up there, you know, on multiple, multiple nighttime operations. But when you actually see it during the day, it just stuck out. I'm like, man, that's really weird. And we confirmed, you know, obviously that, you know, it got told to us that they had to get special approval to stay on station. And it took us. And of course, we get inserted a little bit. A little further than we wanted to be inserted, so it's going to take even long.

So it's going to take all day for us to get up there. We get into, you know, there's a couple villages between us and then. We get into a little bit of contact, but the right call was made. Like, you know, this, you know, engaging, killing an enemy right now isn't really our, our mission, our mission is to get these guys as fast as we can. And again, I'm the, I'm the only combo guy on this mission. I was the only common guy for the most part during that deployment. And as we're traveling at night, we know we should be getting close to these guys.

And it goes back to, again, I feel like I'm in the Q course. Like at the times you feel like the Q course is so basic and things they tell you in the Q course, they do, they come back to ring true in operations. And I remember in SUT being said, being told. that the most, and let me know if you remember this, especially in small unit tactics, what is the most dangerous part of any mission when you leave and come back from the wire?

You want to take a guess at it? I mean, oftentimes it's right as you clear the objective, right? Because everyone's tired and you're chilling on security. The 7-8 answer for that will be re-entry of friendly lines. Oh, geez, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you're linking up with friendly forces. Yeah, that's right.

Reentry of friendly lines. And I always thought that was, you know, a little bit, a little bit over the top. Like, don't you think the most dangerous thing is, you know, getting it out here and, you know, and get it on an ambush line and mix it up with the enemy? But here I am at 2 a.m. in Afghanistan, and there is this, you know, there's these young, 11 bravos that, you know, that are bearing their brothers and watching their other brothers maybe, you know, slowly bleed out. And there's these guys trumping through the woods, trying to link up with them. And I cannot raise them on the radio. And, and I was walking point at the time, too, going, well, this is about fitting. You know, it's my, it's my fault,

I guess, why we can't make commo. So I guess I should be eating these rounds. I did everything that supposed to do before leaving you know i did you know i you know i you know i got their fills i got their frequencies i uh i did radio checks with their guys from the ground why i couldn't make commo at that time is is just is the is the bane of every echoes existence um and you know when when you need to come with the most i couldn't make commo and i just remember walking with my butthole puckers going every step I'm afraid these you know these these these bushes are going to light up um we never made comma we never made uh uh radio contact with them and luckily for me uh they you know they they heard things in the bushes we let up them like you know they they yelled from a distance hey who is

there we got we got to um you know speak english and they knew it was us wow and they knew that there was an American force coming, you know, to link up with them. And luckily that got disseminated all the way to, to the outskirts. But I'll, I'll never forget how, you know, just how dangerous, uh, that something that that really seems like the least amount of dangerous thing that you would do. Like, you know, there was really, there's no enemy at the time. Yeah, there's so much other dangerous stuff I've done in my, in my military career. Yet that to me, when I tell that story, I can still feel the, you know, the hair stick up on the back of my neck, walking those woods, you know, waiting to get lit up with a VS17 panel.

But it's nighttime, right? So yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah. It's nighttime. I have nods. I, you know, I don't even know, you know, if they got nods or if, you know, if all their guys, you know, have nods or if they're still rocking seven deltas on a low loom night. Right. makes them almost just as dangerous with them as without them. I'll tell you this war story real quick, how they even, how they,

how they, I'll rewind it and tell you how they got into this position and what'll blow your mind what we talked about after we met up with them. So it's really a sad story about, about the bureaucracy of our military and the inability for people to make decisions. This was one of their very,

very last valley clearing operations, it had been a very quiet deployment for those guys, and they just hadn't seen a lot of action. So they, you know, they started, in my mind, a little bit to lose respect for the battlefield. You know, I mean, people don't understand, you know, there's a lot of lull to war. And yes, we lost a lot of guys in Afghanistan, but there's plenty of guys who wouldn't deployed and never fired their gun, and they never saw anything bad and they just they woke up every day went to bed every day and eventually went home and it's not a sexy as story to tell your friends but that's the truth for really a lot of soldiers in afghanistan um these guys hadn't seen much much combat at all uh they come across

this uh this house and this house is completely full of iEDs full of iEDs and so the company commander says, hey, we're not going to touch this stuff. There's way too much. I don't feel that we're competent enough to move this stuff where we should anyway. I'm just going to call a strike on this house. So they get into a long haul and they start the process of trying to get someone to authorize dropping on this house. No one wants to make the call. The, you know, the battalion commander doesn't want to make the call.

the brigade commander and in fact it's probably worse than that not the drug out the story but the you know the opso didn't want to make the call who eventually made it to the exo and eventually made it to the battalion commander like all these thresholds and levels and everyone just passing the buck up passing the buck up passing the buck up well they've been here for like four hours just waiting for someone to give them any sort of guidance of what of what they should do well it's human nature I'd probably do it too but what does Joe do after four hours

being in the hot sun after not seeing any app Joe does what Joe does and I say that like I said I'm not a robot I do the same things it allowed me to get up within very close

proximities and lob of volley of RPGs and and and machine gun fire and just absolutely lay waste of these guys and they really didn't have a solid fighting chance at it. They overwhelmed them pretty quick and hurt them pretty bad. And that's when we got the call. So the fact that at the end of the day,

it was just indecision on anyone wanting, and of course, as you can, its collateral damage is the reason they don't want to destroy a building. Yeah, destroy that building or and there was another building close, like fairly close to it. So they were concerned about that building. Rather than being concerned for their safety and well-being of our soldiers, they cared more about mud buildings. And we sent guys home on the body bags for it.

It'll always be wrong. And that's how, so that's, that's how we got there. Now we'll fast forward. We're here. We're talking to these guys. the we're going to go you know

we're going to go up and get a little bit of shut eye because we're they're going to go come pick them up in daylight the next day and so we tell them and of course they're still in the they're in the valley like this house is in the valley they're still in this house or in this compound and we

said hey we're going to go up to that high ground over there and get the tactical advantage and I suggest you guys come with us and and even then they're like no like you guys got it up there like you guys can protect us from up there right and like kind of like yeah what would be what would be a better bet would just to be up there with us like that's that's where you want to be not down here in this valley but but you know I'm not going to be too hard on them you know I mean obviously they were dealing with a lot, beat down pretty hard, and maybe they just needed him.

They were more than willing to have someone come save him and help them out. But that's that that. And I'll tell you one more after this, but we'll let you guys ask questions or talk about it a little more. Do you remember the rank? That was one of our better missions. Sorry. But I don't mean that. Guys lost their lives.

Sure. Trying to think of a good word to use where I say, you know, better missions. It was one of the more significant actions. And you guys went in there and helped out fellow American soldiers. That's right. It makes it meaningful. That's right. Yeah.

I mean, the, the feeling, it's only happened probably two more times in my career. Like, you know, to get there and face to face and strangers, just absolute strangers, look at you and want to hug you because you showed up. Yeah. And they needed someone with guns to show up. And, yeah, they were just, you know, they were sitting there waiting to die. And we're, I mean, if they knew us, we were as big as jackasses as anyone else, you know, like we're, we're, we're, you know, we're definitely not at times to be put up on a pedestal. But at another day, hey, would the green berets show up and the guys with beard show up?

like you're expected, you know, to fill that role. We were more than happy to fill that role for him, and we were more than happy to protect those guys and get those guys out of there. Out of curiosity, do you remember the size of that element that you guys went in to relieve or to solid? I want to say in the 20s. And then do you recall, like, what the,

was it a capital? Was it like a, a PL or a lieutenant? I know. I'd have to, we, there's, there's, I don't know if a few guys have one like this. I would need a lifeline and our medic, Mark DeMayo, remembers everything. Yeah. Everything. I can call Mark right now.

He can tell you exactly how many guys are there, the rake of that dude and the area we were operating in. Yeah, I'm just curious if like the, the officer. like the ground force commander was the one making the call not to like evac with you guys up the up the hill or if if he was getting from higher that no like stay in place until we resolve what we're going to do with this these iEDs yeah i just i just remember that being you know the the the answer to the to the conversation obviously the the team sergeant had that uh had that conversation with whoever is in charge and yeah and uh you being the congo guy i was part right next

the commander sitting up sit reps. Yeah. And so was there something else with that you wanted to talk about how that operation wound down or if it sounded like maybe there was something else who wanted to say about it? No, not about that one. I'll talk about one more. That's kind of similar, happened to the same trip. But I'll tell you, one of the weirdest things, one of the weirdest things that happened

was at the end of that operation. and by the time we actually got Helos in there it was actually at nighttime. So we actually stayed, you know, all day during the day, got all the wounded out. And whoever could walk to this next LZ, we were all going to walk to that HLZ and get out of there with a under with a 47.

So it's nighttime. We're in PZ posture, and our interpreter comes up to me and goes, hey, one of the guys found a goat and he really wants to keep it. And my initial action was like, no, you can't bring a goat on a 47. But, you know, I don't know, another part was like, you know what? Sure. Yeah, he can have the goat.

So I, for whatever reason, authorized this guy to have a goat on the 47. And he's just holding this goat. the whole time he's holding it and we're we're on this like steep ledge so here on this the top of this plateau is where it's going to land and we're at the very edge of of this really steep ledge so when the 47 comes in tailgate this way um i look at them i told october to hey hold on to that go tight we're we're getting ready to go and um and i'm just watching them uh I'm just watching with nods, and it looks like he does this, and then just throws the goat off the ledge to its little goat death. And I'm like, those, they're so weird.

You know, Afghans just do weird things, you know. Just shaking my head, like, I thought you wanted that goat. Why would you throw that goat off? And so this, this question is boggling my mind the whole riot over, sort of. soon as the wheels land down and uh and jolabad and we can get away from the rotor wash i go grab the interpreter i'm like hey why did he kill why did he kill that goat i thought he wanted that goat and uh he said and apparently he says the uh the 47 scared the goat and the goat back legs launched off of his chest and he tried to grab it but from my angle it looked like

He threw the goat off. So the poor goat jumped to its death, but it was the weirdest thing in the world to witness not knowing what's going on. And I really feel like that sums up my experience. I mean, honestly, you're lucky it was just one goat because that could have started. If there had been like a flock or a herd of goats out there or whatever it is, like everybody would have wanted a goat. and you would add a 47 full goat shit. We would have started a horrible, a horrible precedence of them,

probably stealing goats and taking them on the 47th. And I'm sure, I'm sure that would have been a, a theater-wide email at, at some point. Pretty soon you're up to donkeys. Yeah, you would have been the Dr.

Doolittle of Afghanistan, uh, shepherding goats around on 47th. Yeah. The, uh, that, that same trip,

um, I'm in civilian clothes. I'm getting ready to go on the ring route, and I have to go down to Bogram. I don't even, either for Op Fund or for crypto. There's some reason I had to go down to Bogram. So I'm in Jalabad. I'm in Jabad, waiting for the ring flight.

And this like, this E5 or E6 guy comes up to me and goes, and me, there's another guy with me on my team. He can't remember who was who was with me. But something that goes, hey, you guys special forces? And, I mean, I'm wearing civilian clothes. I mean, could have been a contractor, but, you know, lucky guess. I'm like, yeah, we're special forces. And he's like, hey, I've been looking for you guys.

I've been trying to call you guys, been trying to email you guys. I'm really trying to get a hold of you guys. I'm really glad I got to see you. And I'm thinking, what email are you using? This whole thing's starting out weird already. And then he gets like, you know, real emotional. And he's like, hey, man, we're out at Kottinajil. He goes, it's, you know, the next province over.

It's a really small base. He goes, we're just waiting to die. He goes, weird. There's nothing we can do about it. We are just waiting to die. I have to sit there and tell my guys that they're going to be okay. you know, help is coming. You know, it's not, it's, it's not that bad when I know it's that bad.

And I'm like, man, that is, that is a horrible story. I was like, look, give me, give me a red line number and we'll, we'll see what we can do, okay? And he was like, all right. And so he leaves. I canceled my ring flight trip and I go back to, to the, to the team house. You know, and I go to the, you know, the team leader and the team sergeant, like, hey, like, you know, tell him the same story. I was like, you mind if I look into this? And like, no, it sounds like something you should look into.

And again, that's what's really cool. And I'll always miss about, you know, being on being a green bray is, you know, the, the autonomy to do whatever you want. It's a lot of work, unfortunately, to collect your own Intel and to, you know, create your own con ops, you know, execute your own missions with only 12 guys and a partner force. But it's, but it's, but it's, but it's all worth it at times when you get to, to, to, to, to, to, things like this and so I call I call the guys up I talked to their first sergeant it's a company size element out there comp to Jill and without trying to throw that

guy on the bus trying to feel out what's going on and the first arm's like yeah it's pretty bad out here if can can you guys come out here and I was like okay I will come out and look and so me and my team sergeant get on a black hawk and we we fly out there to come to Jill to see what's going on and it's a gosh I wish I could remember the state. I want to say it's like an Illinois National Guard unit out there. And they start telling me everything that's wrong. And I remember thinking myself, uh, they're, they're, they're screwing this up somehow. Like they're, you know, they're, they're, they're being cowards or, you know, this is what happens or you're not

aggressive towards enemy and, uh, you know, obviously that was like deep in the back of my, in my mind. But yeah, I thought it. And so I'm listening to these guys story. And I'm, and so I'm like, so that's, so you know the, you know the point of origin where it's always coming from. They're like, well, there's only three points of origin. I said, all right, well, send out an SR team and set up on, on all three points, points of origin. There's, there's nine, 10, 12 guys. I know you're a company, but that's, that's easily doable. They're like, can't do that.

We can't go out, and I'm going to screw up the number a little bit, but we can't go out with less than 12. people on a patrol. He goes and so with 12 people on a patrol, if I'm to go put three people, so, you know, on those points of origin, three teams of those points of origin, that's 36 people right there. That already puts us at, you know, at full strength for running operations because that means half the guys are sleeping while the other half are out. And as soon as those guys come back, those guys go out on operations. And the only thing we've done is run 24-hour ops, three different three different point of origins and we're not even we're not even living we're not doing like we're not like you can't run operations right right right

right I'm like I was like 12 guys delete these points of these poos if you will are like 1200 meters away like they're not that far like you have to 12 guys to go a click outside the wire he's like that absolutely and just they couldn't They couldn't drive down to the next village, which was only four or 500 meters outside their gate, without getting completely riddled and have to turn back around. They couldn't get air support. They asked for guys to do valley clearing operations. And just the more, you know, I sat there with those guys.

The first sergeant, again, he was a National Guard, infantry first sergeant. He was a good dude. He was, you know, he was just a solid guy. He had a lot of answers and a lot of things he tried. But in the day, they just weren't capable of solving this problem. And so we went back and we did something that we rarely, rarely do. We put the, I'm going to forget words now, but the Kandak was broken up into three elements. Like Kandak is already a battalion.

So whatever, companies, yeah, sorry, companies. So they're broken up into three companies. and we were going to bring two companies of commandos to clear this valley, which we've never done because they're on a red, orange, and green training cycle. So they're always in third. So to bring two companies forward was a big deal. The SOTF headquarters gave us a bunch of pushback, and they're like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

We've asked, you know, we've put singing birds around there. we've asked our human interns like we're not getting anything in in that area like they're asking us to please go do something else and we're like no we've been on the ground these guys are hurting like this valley needs to be cleared um we we set off of what we called operation rock star that was back in the day when odAs could still name their own naming conventions um before people probably uh uh took uh took some some free speech liberties within their operations. Operation penthouse, you know, get approved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it. And everyone got behind it like all the,

the aviation support called all the HLZs like Ringo and like all in and, you know, HLZ Bon Jovi and everything. It was, we inserted that night and the Helos, it was, it was a long valley and the cop was at the very base of the valley so we were going to insert at the very northern part and then kind of like a hammer and anvil operation so so the so the base only had to basically be the anvil of it we would push them all down uh all down the valley um or at least contain them in the valley we we get uh we come into fire as heavy fire as soon as as soon as we as soon as we land and and we're thinking and the SOTIF didn't even want to right here we are taking massive you know RPK fire from PKM fire from the from the mountain

sides and you told us there was no one here and that was just a bunch yeah a couple uh basically a couple low level crooks lobbying RPGs in the base every now and again the our team leader immediately called uh called cc's um that's a whole another story but i'll touch it on it for just a second at the time you had to have battalion level approval to call cass um we had a great team leader who knew the rules and there is a caveat to that um during the infill of an operation when they know you're vulnerable you do not have to call battalion for approval and you could immediately call cast from the ground that's that's exactly what he did and if he wouldn't have done that we'd have had a bunch of shot up birds that uh that night so he does that uh we quell we quell that and there's just these pockets

as we move pockets and pockets and pockets and most of them were really from from the uh sides of the mountain so it wasn't a whole lot of like uh close you know personal type combat but the type of combat that is it's great and it's great for numbers because really Just by you being in the valley is what stirs them up, you know, on on these on these mountain sides and there's just air support comes in and and crushes them. Well, the very first one that we called air support on was way up there. And I wasn't on it, but we we asked a couple guys to go up there and do a BDA on that. It took them hours to crawl up this mountain to get to that BDA site. But when they did, what we found were guys in A.C.

and they were foreign fighters. Holy shit. And we found them all through the valley. Long story short, by the time we get done with this valley and get home, the guys who didn't want us even going on the mission were giving us all sorts of kudos and praises for one of the, you know, the biggest noble operations, you know, that we took on. And they didn't even want us to go. our

captain as soon as we get home gets home gets gets um uh temporarily

uh, temporarily uh fired or we'll see if he's fired because the siege of soda of commander wanted him on his on the carpet like now because he heard that he didn't use the right protocol for calling in

Cass and he called in cash without a battalion level approval. And he sat there in Bogram for like a week. And then he sees the siege of Sotom commander, tells the story and goes, oh, I didn't know it was during infill. You're good. And sends them back to the team.

Wow. Fortunately for us, while we're running a muck for another solid week without our team leader, actually had gone on some great missions. But he didn't deserve that. And again, that deployment was really like one of the, the spur, you know, the moments that truly spurred me to say, as, and as great as that deployment was, like, you know, we got to save, like, those guys, and we got back to their camp, they all, you know, gave us the biggest hug. And they're like, man, thank you for saving our lives. And we don't think we were going home without you.

Like, you really feel like you did something worthwhile. But there was a reoccurring theme that. deployment which was this con-ops had gotten crazy to 20 and 30 pages yeah it was getting increasingly harder to fight you feel like you're fighting the enemy and the SOTIF and see just SOTF trying to get out the door if the enemy could move as long as the enemy moved every night then he was moving faster than than then then we could keep up with because that con up that was approved was was for this location it got it got it got

disheartening. I mean, what a ridiculous, what a ridiculous situation that you have you have soldiers on the ground there who are telling you, hey, we're getting hit every night. But hire is saying, well, we don't have it on SIGAN, so I guess it's not happening. It, though, the whole thing at a, at a battalion and higher level, you know, not just at, within SF and within the military, really just kind of to start. to discuss me you know and if we weren't there with such a solid team of good dudes who were just

willing to do whatever it took to get out the wire they really didn't have a good attitude generally speaking like okay fine you want 20 pages i'll make you i'll get if that's what it takes you out of the wire i'll give you 20 pages you want 30 pages then we'll get really efficient at writing 30 pages and we'll get out the wire um they were you know they were just a really good team when it came to that that really could have crushed you know other teams and did and it did It did crush other than years. Do you remember, roughly? Oh, 9.

09? This is about McChrystal years. Yeah, because I remember talking to... A 10, 2009, 2010. Yeah, I remember talking to an SF soldier sometime in like in the 08 to 09 timeframe. And he said that if they were on target and they fired their weapon,

they had to fill out of 15-6-6. like that it just got so ridiculous for a while. Yeah. And I don't, I don't mind if the war warrants that. If we're making results and we just don't need American cowboys, you know, going on target just to spike the football every night.

Right. I did that, you know, and as a younger soldier, that's, you know, I would, I would have never said that. And I'd be like,

as long as we're here, We need to be out on target. Yeah, I did get a little bit older and wiser, but we weren't there yet. And I think the biggest problem that I saw was ground guys were reporting ground true. Right. And I saw it firsthand that those reports, we had these like green, yellow and red reports about how they're doing planning-wise, how they're doing logistically, how they're, how their training is going. And we generally gave him yellows and reds across the board. Yet when you see a polished product later up at a siege of soda level,

looking like it's, you know, like everything's rosy. Right. That's not what we said. Yeah. Right. It's always, and not to disparage military intelligence because there are a lot of two shops or a lot of human. Like there's a lot of good work in the intel, but there's also a lot of bureaucracy, bureaucracy there where when guys like you were talking about these guys but when guys are on the

ground are reporting what's going on and then you have you know two shops you know intel shops going no we don't have any intelligence and support that's like well there's your fucking intelligence like why do you think your product supersedes what these guys on the ground are telling you hey and that's that's part of unit history right there like we we have we've bit of disconnect for a while you can go all the way back to I'll get close but Operation Anaconda in 2003 someone helped me out on that but it's got to be close of that early war where you know these ground units are are saying hey there's a major a collection of enemy personnel in this area and and higher-ups going nope we sent over

for ASR over there, didn't see anything. And go, no, they're there. And say, nope, we sent ISR over again. There's nothing there. And then it, you know, it took, you know, unit AFO troops to go to go up there in twos and threes. And live on the side of a mountain for a few days and go, holy crap, this place is crawling with people. And even then, like them kind of be like, well, we don't really see it on ISR. That's one of the reasons Operation Anaconda was.

such a debacle. So reliant on on, on, on, on, on ISR. Right. And not got ground. We, uh, we jumped forward a little bit. Um, you had talked about that before this deployment, you would also, you'd gone to selection beforehand.

Can you talk to us a little bit about, um, when the idea of going to, trying out for the unit came about into your mind and, and then like going to selection? Uh, no, because I failed selection the first time. I don't talk about my failures. The going to selection the the the first time Um

goes goes back to the you know the adage of I didn't want to I didn't want to be done with my military career not that I was thinking of retiring or being done at any time real soon at that point but at this point my career I felt like you know I went into the military you know check I became a green beret because, you know, being in the regular military wasn't enough. And then I was like, hey, there was a small group of guys within SF that I thought were even better. And going to a dive team, check. Like, you know, I continue to push myself and, and, you know, and make it.

You know, I wanted to go to war real bad. I went to war to war several times. And I felt like I was really good at it, you know, check. Like I'm I'm continuing to get to look for challenges, meet them. And, you know, there's a couple of things going on. One, I want to see how far I could go. I didn't think I was the best guy on my team. And that's why, like, you know, I needed to go to selection because I got a,

because I'm, you can't, you can't soar with, with eagles when you're hanging around buzzards. Like it was, it was, it was nothing like that. And in fact, I was probably the third best guy on my team. I wasn't even the best guy in my ODA. But I was the only guy that went to selection. And I did, I never told anyone this, but I did get tired of hearing a lot of people train up for selection and, you know, going to sniper school, you know, and going to this school. And, you know, like, and always, like, collecting this perfect packet to go to go to.

a selection with because they're because they're going to go to CAG but they they forgot the most important part of the process which was going to selection and so it's had a lot of people talk about it but but never do it and so there's a lot of and and i i knew even before that deployment handwriting was on the wall deployments are going to go away iraq was already starting to go away at that time. You know, there were rumors of, you know, of Afghanistan combat operations, beginning to get questioned and put into halt. And I wasn't done deploying. And I knew I could go to one other place and, and hopefully, you know, continue to deploy and maybe even deploy the rest of my career. So you kind of take that, that whole, you know, that whole mound of evidence.

And that's what, that's what drove me to go to selection. So took two shots, which is not abnormal. at all. Right. And in fact, I don't like, I like calling the first one a reckey. So the first one, the first one was a recie. And I made it really far. Like I made it, like, the only thing I didn't do was a 40-miler. And it was definitely one of those things where you show up, you know, and even though, you know, as an ODA, you don't have this like, yeah, I never felt this weird, oh, we're just 20th group, you know, like our ODAs always thought, you know, had a, had nothing but, knew they were good and if you questioned it, we're more than willing to prove it to you.

So I'd never really had this in my career, this, oh, I'm just 20th group, until I showed up to selection. And I don't know, it was just a bunch of really big guys and, you know, guys telling all these crazy stories. And like, I don't know. Maybe, you know, maybe I am out of my league a little bit.

And then just slowly, you know, the days go by and the days go by and the class gets smaller and smaller. and you're still here and all those big loudmouth guys, you know, didn't make time standard this day and that day. And really by the end of it, it's probably a dramatic way to say it. But you kind of know how on 300, like, they get to the end of it. And they're like, we actually might win this thing.

You know, they kind of thought it was a suicide mission. And then they think they actually could pull it off. It's kind of like how I started the field. Like actually, I, you know, I'm looking at everyone around me. I'm just as good as as anyone here. I can make this thing. And as soon as I, about the time I started feeling like that, I got cut. And which was the very end of it.

And I remember going to the, I won't talk about it. The, we'll just, I got, we'll just say this. I got interviewed at the end. And the interviewer was like, I'm just just not going to talk about it. Did you get good feedback in terms of what you could improve if you came back? No. Okay.

All right. I'll try. I do. I don't mind coming on a podcast. I don't mind, you know, talk about the unit and send, you know, selection, you know, selection is sacred. Yeah, right. Yeah. We get it.

There's, and there's some things I will talk about. but yeah i was yeah i was able to talk some at the end he did ask me some questions um i'm afraid if i go into it i'll end up you know given someone some answers but but they but they did welcome you to come back again try out again yes he he he asked me how i did i told him i thought i did um i thought i did pretty well and then he he laughed at me because he said well you're you're sitting here you must not have done that well and i was like ouch yeah that's this is pretty much true we We had a lively conversation after that and I must have said something right to let them have pity on me and bring me back for a second try. And so I went deployed, came back, came back again and was just, and I truly mean this.

I got just lucky enough to get through the process. Yes, I trained for it. A lot of guys did. You know, I was, I was in the top third, you know, of the class whenever we did anything. You know, I mean, I know physically I deserve to be there. So, you know, why do I feel lucky? Because there are guys that were way ahead of me and always ahead of me and didn't make it. You know, it's just, it's a weird, it's a weird process that has, that has a weird way of working things out.

And there's a saying that didn't make a whole lot of sense at the beginning. And they'd say, hey, we're not looking for the best guy. We're looking for the right guy. And I remember thinking myself, wouldn't the best guy be the right guy? Kind of doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And again, just the longer I was there, the truer that saying rang out was, it's not the best guy. It's the right guy. So I was just, again, lucky enough to be the right guy.

you get picked up and then off to OTC and I mean what was that experience like for you? I mean, did you enjoy the training? Yeah, I'll tell you, I will tell you this about selection, because it'll roll into OTC as well. Selection, bar none, I don't care where you've been, what you've done is the most professional thing you will ever witness. And, you know, I wish I could kind of go into detail. and tell you like what you know how professional is and how it will blow your mind um but i'll just

leave it that it is it is the most professional thing you'll you'll ever experience and i don't know if you ever you ever had this experience where you go to a military school and things are they're they're run okay but they're a little discombibulated and you know it makes you feel at one point like is this your guy's first time ever running this course yeah are you just making this up as you go long. Yeah, you've got to have this figured out by now. That happens zero times ever in West Virginia. It is the most professional thing you will ever. It's so professional. We've had guys quit before because they saw the level of professionalism in a course and just said, I'm not that professional. I can't be this professional and I can't meet this standard and select themselves off the professionalism of it.

So I'll absolutely say that. They, you know, the, the, the, the unit in selection that deserves that, uh, that credit. Um, and to be known for that. And, uh, OTC, um, was still professional. I say not as professionals, you know, um, they, um, it, uh, you messing up an OTC on a CQB run. And there will be a, you know, a large muscular man yelling at you from the catwalk, know, letting you know how much you suck and much you probably don't deserve to be here. And, you know, it is, it is up to you to deal with that information and, and react accordingly.

The two things that they gave me were this. I felt challenged and I felt like the, you know, the skill set that I was acquiring and the resources required to, you know, needed to develop this type of skill set were finally there. Like, it just, it's, it's like being in tactical Disney world. I mean, just everything's at, at your fingertips. If you need it, you'll get it. It's, without a doubt, the most amazing place I've ever worked. And I almost feel bad sometimes.

telling people like how great I had it because even though special operations and as a whole generally speaking you know have have money and they have equipment but very few people really know what it's like to never want for anything so what was it like when you graduated and showed up to your team and walked into their team room that first day um I I knew this I knew when um when I graduated OTC. It's one of the few times in life where I feel like I took a moment and thought to myself, hey, like, remember this. This may be the greatest accomplishment of your life. I know, maybe that even sounds dramatic, but at least, at least I felt aware enough to know that this is something, you know, few people actually get to do. At the end of the day, if you don't make select,

even if you make selection but you don't make OTC, you did something great that still very few people do, but it's not, you don't feel good about not making it. And I, but I knew at that point, even if they fire me in six months, I was an operator and I, you know, and I did, you know, I did this. I accomplished this. I was good enough. I, you know, and one of the very, I'm in a part of one of the, one of the, small brotherhoods and all of the military. And I definitely, I, I, I, I, I, I enjoyed that moment. And then, of course, when, when the realization of, you know, getting into your team room and that what you thought was, was pretty good CQB, the, my, my first team leader did, who did not hand out compliments, ever to anyone, kind of let it slip that I graduated number one in CQB, which I knew I knew I was doing pretty good at then as

this EQB. It was letting me know. He goes, so you think you think you're good just because you graduated number one in CQB? What's, it's not going to be fast enough here. And, uh, and I looked at him and I go, so I graduated number one CQB, huh? I don't know. I remember, I'm going like, no, that's, that's not what this is about.

Forget that. But that's, that's not a compliment. It's nothing. I heard it. I heard you. Yeah. I want to see you be. No big deal. But he was absolutely right. But he was absolutely right. Man, you get over there and they'll tell you this is usually a pretty similar experience. They'll go to the shoot house for the first couple, you know, the first couple days and at least the first day, the first couple runs.

They'll tell you, hey, just hang out in the back and don't try to shoot anything. And that's, and, and those, and I'll always remember those first few runs going, who, yeah, that's, that's going to be tough to keep up with. You know, I, I didn't feel like I didn't belong, but I knew that I was about to get challenged again. And it, and it was just, it was just another good feeling knowing that, because it happens sometimes in our careers and special operations where you make it to something and you're like, no, it's good. And it's, I mean, it's really good. but it's not exactly everything I thought it was going to be. You know, you have those moments. And you know that the unit just never really gave me that moment.

Right. It is what you think it is. It must be like on one hand as a new guy, a little intimidating, but at the same time, you're like, I'm with like the absolute top-notch guys. I mean, it must be awesome to be around that kind of talent. It, that particular team leader loved, you know, loved his team to,

to have a lot of confidence, but to back it up as well. And I remember my first deployment going over there with those guys. You know, still think, yeah, I have more than enough experience underneath my belt of combat experience. But there's always this, when you're on the white side, again, it's kind of like National Guard and 20th group. Like you know guys that went there, but like once they go over there, they go into a black hole and you never talk to them again.

Like you hear rumors of what goes on over there, but no one really knows. You hear that they're, you know, you hear their target sets are so much livelier. And, you know, when they go on target, you know, it's always, it's always a lively night. And you just hear these, these stories. And so, you know, I was a little bit, you know, didn't know what to think of the unknown, you know, on my first deployment.

But I do remember, you know, being next to those guys and after, you know, running through the shoe house with them and, you know, watching them and mission planning and decision making and just how they carried themselves day in and day out and how well they knew their job. Like I remember getting on a helicopter going, I'm good. like I'm with these guys. You know, I'm good. And and feeling, still feeling like I can contribute with these guys, but still knowing these guys, these guys are going to take us home. And that's what they did. And man, that's what they did.

Those, those guys were exactly who I thought they were as soon as we got to combat. They were great. Just can't say enough good things about them. And so at this point, I mean, you're off to the races. You did another, another eight deployments to the Middle East. And I mean, what would, I mean, I don't know what you're comfortable talking about. I mean, are there any particular operations that stand out in your mind or any particular experiences that you think are significant? Either to you personally or maybe to the history of special operations, frankly.

I could have done without getting shot. I get it. It stands out. I was running pretty clean there for, you know, probably going into almost double-digit deployments. And, you know, everyone on my team had a Purple Heart. And but then I do remember, I'll say this about the night I got shot. I was getting more aggressive and more aggressive, you know, and things that I probably, I knew, they weren't like flagrant, but I knew that I probably shouldn't have been doing.

business that way and that there is probably a smarter way to do business. But, you know, it's not like I just, you know, turned into like an aggressive retard. Like I just, I'd slowly continue to go down this, you know, this, this path and got away with it and then got away with it, you know, and even, you know, a couple times, like, you know, got to kill, you know, some people that I, that I wouldn't have been in a good position to kill otherwise. And so it, you know, kind of reinforces that, hey, just the most aggressive guy, the fastest guy wins and always wins. And that's just how it is. And that is true 99% of the times. And you, you, you play like that long enough. You will roll snake eyes. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, a

click away out from the rest of the assault element, continuing to engage guys and get drawn further and further out. And even knowing that and being like, hey, we're, you know, there's, you know, we just got away with that last one. And there's, there's more people, you know, behind, you know, in this next group. I probably shouldn't go that far. And I should probably, you know, plus up another operator or two, you know, if, if we're going to do that.

And then just going, no, we got this. And we did not. So I got shot. Our combo guy that was with us got shot. I got hit by a grenade about five seconds later after getting shot. Another round skipped off and shot my nods in half. So my panos were dangling on my face. Just shot up in a really nice.

bad way and really lucky lucky to get out of there and but we did and it it it didn't it didn't change me to to to being like hesitant or scared I truly think it it reset me to to exactly where where I needed to be right I don't think I would have ever operated scared it's just not who I am I if if I think I couldn't have got out of that. I'd have just medically retired at that point. I just, you know, that's just not how I'm cut. So I either just would have been like, well, I lost it and it's not for me. But, you know, the whole time that I was in rehab, I could not wait to get back on the battlefield. I couldn't wait. I know it sounds maybe weird to some people, but I couldn't wait to kill

someone again and to prove like, hey, that's not how my career ends. There's no way that, you know, I felt like my career would end it on a mistake. So I worked as hard as I possibly could to get back out there and then to, you know, I don't know, validate myself still. I don't know the right way to kind of describe it. But that small reset, if I would have continued on that path, I would have died in Syria. 100%. That Syria was such a different, such a different game.

You think you know IEDs? you know, in Afghanistan, you don't know what it's like until ISIS retreats from a village and leaves about 3,000 IEDs everywhere on every road, on every courtyard, in the walls of houses, puts them on timers, puts them on IR trip devices, just an absolute IED debacle. and they were more than and they were smart like they were they were more than willing to to use your griff your aggressiveness against you and pull you into situations only to only to find out too late yeah we made of that that's that's what they wanted us to do right this really was a formidable enemy and in some aspects

and in other aspects they're they were just as dumb terrorists like the rest of them So they're definitely a dynamic there with ISIS. But I hate, man, I really did. I really hated ISIS on a level. But in the day, I kind of respected the Taliban. After operating in Iraq, guys in Iraq were just so quick to surrender, you know, at times and just take their chances with the judicial system. At least in Afghanistan, generally speaking, they were willing to fight it out with you.

Um, and it was almost more like a tribal war as well. Like, I don't know. Again, I'm not going to sit here and give too much, too much respect and credence to the Taliban and if there's some sort of legitimate government, you know, fighting for their existence and they're, they're horrible people. But compared to ISIS, uh, they, you know, I can, I, I view them in two, two different categories. Yeah.

The Taliban wasn't so much. into like the flagrant war crimes and stuff like that that ISIS was. Yeah, I mean, they had it, you know. I mean, they were capable of it, but they, they, the, the amount, when ISIS was willing to do it, they were willing to do it often and do it on a very large scale. Right. And, and they were, and they were willing to do it, you know, to kids as, as much as anyone. Right.

They were, they were just, they were just a different breed of evil. I remember, you know, seeing, you know, seeing ISIS dead bodies and just looking down on them with absolutely no remorse or no, you know, internal struggle going, man, that was someone's son, you know, that was someone's father. But just looking at them and absolutely not caring and being like, that's just a two-legged dog, you know, wish there were more next to them. I just really disliked them on another. Yeah. Could we talk a little bit more about Syria? because you mentioned that that was like a totally different environment. And you guys presumably working with the SDF.

And was it more of like a UW environment than some of the other deployments? Yeah. I'll tell you, that was an SF mission all day long. That was an SF mission. We had way too few guys doing way too much. And for people who really aren't set up to partner, with other units. And I will tell you why SF didn't get that mission.

And they wanted it. Fifth Group wanted it so bad. In fact, there was a plan to give it over to them. When we got to Raka, we were going to hand it over to them. And then cooler minds prevailed. So it's a horrible idea. Like, that's like handing it over it, you know, at halftime. They either take it over now or they don't take it at all.

Like don't, don't, don't turn it over it. to them right as they are getting to the climax and you need to be a well-oiled machine fighting their capital at the most and then you know and then give it to a new guy to figure out all their all their all their initial problems the reason SF didn't get it is because SF the same reason I started to not like SF at the end they quit trusting their ground guys, they required too much oversight and that war was going too fast if you, if to slow them down with the protocols that that they would inevitably do. So the unit does a great job at trusting their ground guys. I never, never had an issue, you know, being questioned or asking why am I

doing this or why do I need that. I just tell them what I'm doing and I tell them what I need. And if you don't give them a reason, you know, to, to question you, they, they, they, they, they they never will. And so the, my, my first trip was very, was very unique because it was, it was still, I wouldn't even call it UW, like it was, it was, it was closer to, to World War II. Like, you know, we had you had friendly lines, you had enemy lines.

And there was, there was, there was, there was, there was no in between, you know, and, and, and even weirder than that at times, it was like, you know, we called it a banker's war. Like, no one, no one fought at night. They didn't, they didn't have night vision, you know, so, you know, when the sun one came up and everyone woke up and, and ate some breakfast, they started lobbing mortars, you know, and right before dinner time, whenever I got hungry, they, you know, they, they packed it up. and, you know, and waited for the sun to come back up. That's, yeah, that's a little bit of a, you know,

satire way to describe it because it was very unlike that at times, but there is, there, there is a lot of truth to that as well. There were times, you know, if you were to, you know, have a fire or, or even a loud generator, like it would, it would, it would get you some, some mortar rounds at night. I mean, they would come out and play at night if you gave them a reason to. But generally speaking, if you didn't give them a reason to, they were just, it was just a very much a this was a good side, this is the bad side. They're in this village, we're in this village. There's two clicks of open ground between the two villages, and we're going to fight it out

to see who's either going to lose this village or gain this village. And for us, as a sniper, it really pushed us to lean heavily into what we started to call at the time, ELR, extreme long range. Because everything at the time was 800 meters and in, 800 meters, if you're lucky, with a 308. Well, 308 wasn't going to do anything, you know, from 2,000 meters away, but that's where our engagements are. And so now we've always had 3-3-8s,

But we never really dusted them off and used them with a lot of, you know, extremely at, you know, at these engagements. And now, you know, we're finding out, you know, we, the way we use are, yeah, I would have a tripod and a, you know, and a pillow for my, for my laser rangefinder. Like things that I've never had to do before, but, you know, you know, I would have. have a $3,000 really right stuff tripod just for my laser range finder because comes to find out, you know, at 2,200 meters away, if I'm just a little bit off and I lays the, you know, the building in front of the building I'm, you know, I'm trying to get, you know, I'm off, you know, I'm off by by 50 meters. And in that 50 meters, now my elevation is drastically different. And I'm never going to hit my target at 2,000 meters, even though that.

that 3-38 is more than capable of making a 2,000-meter shot. So I either just excited a lot of some of your nerdy shooter audience or I just put to sleep some of the guys who just like direct action. We learned a lot about our equipment and about our guns in Syria. It was a very, very different war. Do you find the 338, once you guys dialed it in, that you guys were pretty effective using that? weapons platform at those ranges yeah oh that three three trade was great it was uh the the one thing

that we would go back and forth is when you get over 2 000 meters the problem we'd run into is spotting your misses even though you think the 338 is is a large round man it it it is but you can easily not see a miss at 2 000 meters um and if you can't see your miss then do you You can keep throwing rounds all you want, but now you're just trying to get lucky. And even though the 50 Cal is not as accurate as a 338, at least you can see your misses. And especially if you put like a Rathas round inside there, you can, you know, you can seeing your misses in that environment becomes a lot easier. And even though it's not as accurate, you know, I at least can, you know, can make a, you know, an informed decision on a correction, which I just couldn't with a 3-3-8.

Right. And did the... It really changed the way we operated a lot from long distance. Yeah. Did the reliance on the sniper platforms have to do with the air support not being as quick as it was in Afghanistan or Iraq? No, we were the only game in town, so we always got to kind of got what we wanted. It has more to do with guys hanging out in windows or hanging out, you know, or being underneath structures that an aerial, you know, platform isn't really going to be able to see as well as someone from a ground level. Now, did you guys...

And if I called an airstrike, I really have a hard time saying that's my kill. So I'm at least going to try to couple throw rounds at it before I call it an air strike. Yeah. Now, between the 338 and the fifth. did you guys experiment all with like the 300 windmags or anything like that, you know, for that, that sort of medium range type of? Yeah, the 300 wind mag just wasn't a platform we used and no particular reason. You know, the SF groups, to my knowledge, I think, are the only ones that use that 300 windmag.

And it's a great round. I mean, it's a laser round. I mean, the ballistics of that round is absolutely great. It doesn't have a great barrel life to it. And unfortunately, the SF groups purchased that, and they didn't do a good job of having a kind of a barrel replacement plan. So they actually had a great, they probably had one of the great medium range or one of the best medium range long guns in the arsenal for anyone.

But with most of the barrels were shot out. Yeah. Ended up not as great as they should have been. Yeah. Because I know that's something that seals use quite a bit, and they seem to be very happy with it. Do they use a 300 as well? I believe so.

They use it in their sniper school, I know, so. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't even, the only thing we even use, I went to group SOTIC and, um, and level one SOTIC.

Um, gosh. I got a thing with, SIFIC or SIFIC, if you will, Special Forces sniper course. And we only use 308s, you know, at that time. Yeah, 308. Yeah, not 338, 308. Yeah. Oh, I said three.

So as these, you know, you're going back and forth from Syria. I mean, how did you see the campaign evolve over time? The campaign was pretty straightforward, really. Even though we handed off to other squadrons, you know, they, it was, they really, you know, encountered the same things we did and and you know worked very similarly so really it was just like you know when come in and out it was just it's just picking back up where you left off i in between rotations um i missed the the uh the fall the fall of raka so i'm sure that would have been a lot different and i'll tell you why i feel like it's a lot it was a lot different

because when I showed up to Rocco, like very shortly after the fall of Raqa, I remember driving around that place at night, feeling like I was at the, you know, the opening of Terminator when there's just bombed out buildings just everywhere in this dark, smoky atmosphere. I've never seen damage at that scale to a city the way we leveled. Raqa. We absolutely leveled Raqa, and rightfully so. Yeah. And I have to ask, too, while we have you here. I mean, did you have any involvement in the Baghdadi raid? Yeah, that was the very first deployment of missed.

Gotcha. And so hit Raqa and what happened from there? I mean, you said that you actually went into the city at one point? Oh, yeah. Well, from, from there, we went back into a more traditional high-value target hunting. So the war, the traditional, the traditional war was over, and then that kicked off a much more fun part of Syria, where we went back into, and to strict quick strikes and a lot of them and had a great time that that was probably my my most enjoyable trip would have been after the fall of that and you know some of those guys pretending like they can just put down their guns and build back into the population and and and the Kurds will just forget about them nope the Kurds didn't forget about you

and they told us right where you're at and these are the uh from the outside of looking in the occasional like sentcom press reports that somebody flew in and black helicopters in the night and hashed out business with the bad guys yeah yeah it it happened a lot more than the press releases would there was no need for the press to get wind of of any of it what what was that like for you and and you know your fellow soldiers in the sense of there there was you know, the press might report on it occasionally. Like, we had just had these two very long wars, right, that were in and out of the media,

but there was a national awareness about it. But then Syria comes, and it's not in the national consciousness the way these other wars are, but we have troops that are fighting, same as we do in parts of African stuff. But what was that like for you guys? I welcomed it.

I, well, I shouldn't say I welcomed it. At the time, I didn't know about it. I mean, really, like, you know, when you're in that world, like, I don't, if, I don't know what the news is reporting on or what they're not reporting on. You know, I live in a very, I lived in a very, almost in a bubble, you know. Yeah, do your job, go home. You're right. Yeah. Do your job, go home.

And when I'm home, I'm training for my next job, you know, so I don't, you know, I don't have time to listen to see what, you know, to see if the, what the news is reporting about Syria. I, you know, I live it in Syria. I don't, you know, the only time I would see anything on the news is someone like, you know, showed it to us and say, hey, this is, this is what they're talking about. Or if something got leaked, you know, if something got leaked, we'd always, you know, we'd always know, we'd always, you know, show it to us that something got leaked and try to, so like, but those are, those are far in between between. would they try to like like scare you guys straight find out who did it like no most of the time

those those leaks would uh would have come from um a partner force or um you know someone someone at a much you know higher level in the military that that they you know they knew was way yeah it's not some piece seven yeah it's somebody in the three x or it's right yeah yeah it's yeah it's not even somewhat j-sock related yeah like it's someone it's yeah at a at a at a at a theater like sitcom level that has a relationship with fox news and and and and leaked it you know it's that's usually where yeah yeah so you know some along those lines yeah so from that time period uh is there any other like significant missions that kind of stand out for you I won't go into great detail about it.

And I don't mean to do that as a teaser, but I'll say this more or less to kind of set the record straight on it. It's another thing that it's funny what does get news traction, what doesn't get news traction, what should have been a much bigger story and wasn't. I'll talk about it because like I said, you can Google it. you know John Dunbar you know dying in Syria and Matt Tonroe which was a British SAS guy which was right next to him when he died should have been a huge new story you know if you think about it I mean you got a Delta Force guy and a British SAS guy dying on the on the same target when has that ever happened you know that's that's that's that's that's that was crazy that's never happened in the history of either one of our of our existence yet in Syria that was

without a doubt of first but that ended up being a bigger new story in Syria I mean in in England because you know we had told our people that we know that we obviously have you know ground troops and combat operations happening in Syria they were they they they weren't as forthcoming with it with the SAS right right and so when the news So when the news hit that an SES guy died in Syria, a lot of the public was like, whoa, what's going on here? You guys said that we were kind of there in a support role. That doesn't seem like a support role.

One of the worst misconceptions of that mission is that newspapers reported that it was that it was fractricide that killed him. I don't remember something about that. But it was an IED, wasn't it? And there is a problem with it. You use terms like IED, which you're right, but people assume like roadside bomb IEDs. Because that's what, you know, when you talk about IEDs is what, you know, what almost always is. We were dismounted at the time really close to target to a bomb maker's target. He had early warning.

And his, again, an IED makeshift Claymore went off. And John took the brunt of that. But it set off his wall charge. And his wall charge is what killed Matt. And that is, and that story, you know, that story is out there. But generally speaking, it will say, hey, it was a fratricide. And, you know, he died due to a friendly explosion. They'll say it in ways that are that kind of really.

Yeah, it's a sympathetic explosion. It's not. Yeah, jump around the truth. Yeah. I would like the way they say that. So it would be like writing a story and saying, you know, Sergeant First Class Smith died in Afghanistan due to a fuel, a gas tank explosion in his Humvee. Well, did the IED set off the gas tank explosion? Right.

Yes. Well, but the gas tank killed them. Like that makes, you know, nowhere in the history do we ever, do we ever say that? I don't know why we do it here. It was the direct cause of, you know, of direct contact with the newspaper stories were written. Yeah. That's so differently. That painted it insinuated differently. Right. It just it bugs me. It's sort of the way fact checkers work sometimes, right? Is, is they, they, they, they, they, I mean, technically what they're saying that it was an American explosive that killed them is true, but they're leaving out really how it all went down. Yeah, that's like that's one

it's one way to say. Yeah. It's sort of like saying that somebody who died from, you know, from enemy fire died from Bob Boss. It's like, yeah, they did die from Bob Boss. That's right. Right. Yeah.

But that's so true. But they didn't just start bleeding. And I could think and, you know, they, the, the, uh, I don't remember which newspaper, but you know, the, the, the, you know, and in England, they, they did like a whole investigation on it and then, you know, wrote a report saying, you know, this is the official report, you know, off of it, you know, and sent it out as, you know, as official record. And again, it's, it's technically true, but I feel like it's, it's wildly misleading and doesn't do justice, you know, honestly.

to either one of the guys who were who were who were warriors i mean they were both truly truly good men i'll tell you a story just real quick about matt tonroe was an s as a guy that guy would uh he'd have to go on helicopter every now and again and go you know and go visit you know other places where where they were at and if he found out that we're we're going on a mission that night he would do everything in his power to get his his Hilo to come in sooner or see if we would push the mission later because he didn't want to miss a single target. He was absolutely addicted to going on missions and I love that about him because, you know, that's, that's the way you want every, every one of your guys to, you know, to be. And so just it's very

unfortunate that he lost his life in Syria and in that manner because he absolutely was represented his his unit you couldn't do a better job of representing those guys. And so how did this start to like wind down for you? I mean, it sounds like you really like rode this wave throughout your career, did some amazing things. And you had a great, you know, 20 years in the military. I mean, what was it sort of like for you? Like you must have some inkling that like, this is coming. I'm not going to be able to be an operator forever. What was that transition like for you? Yeah, I mean, I was, I was deep in my 30s and, you know, almost, you know, a decade of the time on on a team. Yeah, which my team time was was coming to an

end. The, what really, you know, kind of did it for me was, you know, after that, after that, Syria trip we had we had been we were doing training the way we always do training and I I was just unfortunate enough to be close to a couple really big kind of training explosions that that just really they really rocked me and unlike earlier you know there's yeah I'd been near those those size explosions before but for whatever reason you know at this point in my life you know maybe it just finally shook something loose I was I was having some some some real some real issues so we'd get and and what would happen is almost every time we'd go back to to do an explosive training like these these mental issues

would would would rear back up almost like like like a re-injury of it. It would get to a point where like just simple stuff like I'd have to I would write notes in my in my locker to tell to tell me where I parked my car. because I would just go wandering out in the parking lot, looking for it, and it's a massive parking lot, and I feel like the first time it really felt odd to me, because usually when you see your car, you're like, oh, that's right. That's right.

That's where I parked my car. But to see the car for the first time, be like, that's not. Did someone move my car? And literally going in there and starting to accuse, you know, hey, who moved my car? Like, I was parked, you know, at the right. And like, Brent, no one moved your car. I parked right next to you. That's where you parked this morning.

I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. You know, I'm trying to play it off. And, you know, I mean, I go on and on and on. But one of the, you know, the weirder stories is, you know, taking the wife and kids to church and just driving. And at some point, you know, having, you know, your wife put her hand on your hand and be like, do you know where we're going? I'm like, no. No, I don't know where we're going right now. Like, we're all dressed up kind of nice.

And so I'm going to guess we're going to church. But, yeah, I don't know what day it is. I don't know where we're going. And I was my wife's like, here, you're going to go talk to someone Monday or I will. And my team time was, was, I was within. Yeah, I had one more deployment left. know really I was so it was it it felt right yeah and I felt I felt I felt complete with my career I mean really Syria was great man I love Syria but when I

got home from that last trip I don't you know just something clicked I was like you know what every trip I couldn't wait for the next one and it's not that I didn't you know didn't have the hunger didn't want to wait you know didn't want to deploy again but there was a feeling of completion you know there that had just never been there before. So when it was all said and done, it wasn't, it wasn't the hardest transition. It was at first,

you know, realizing its time. But as we started making steps towards that, I was kind of excited about the next chapter in life. That's awesome. Do we have questions for Brent? We do. I just wanted to say also

that air tags. I put an air tag in my car. It It works wonders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear.

Jackson, thank you very much. Was attending selection for the unit more challenging coming from Guard SF. Is Guard SF well represented in the unit? And also, how often do you see Marines, airmen, and sailors at the unit? That's a good question. I was surprised at how many other 20th group guys there. There was a period of time where the highest, it was a short period of time, but it fluctuates. That 20th group had one of the best success rate at selection. So, yeah, there's definitely no

shortage of, or at least at that time, you know, of guard guys. And there's, you know, there's an eclectic mix of guys of the unit. Yeah. At the end of the day. it'll always be heavy with greenberries and rangers but there is there's someone from everyone there i'll just you know leave it that we'll necessarily talk about the percentages of all of them but they're they're they're they're they're all there and they definitely all show up to selection um and jacks thank you very much how different are the cultures between the squadrons oh that's that's uh that's a that's another good question actually it it when i first got there the um the cultures were were i won't say drastically different because the the truth is if

you went back a little bit further when i was there some people would say they were drastically different uh when you know when i got there there was there were still um very very different they all had their their their own personalities uh and and sometimes for better or worse um And by the time I got to the end of my career, a lot of those, I would probably say more on a negative, you know, those negative type cultures just had had pretty much all but disappeared. And even though there are still slight differences between the squadrons, it wasn't as much as it used to be. And then how did you feel about, how did you feel about dev group and HRT when you were in? I didn't feel about them. Who are they?

I think I read a book about the second one. We had a lot of interaction with the dev group guys. And I've done, I've done large-scale training exercises with them. They've come over in a large trail. You know, send onesie-to-se-to-se guys or a team. team over to do large-scale training operations to get that that crossover. And we'll just say in various places around the world, I've had one or two of their guys attached to us. So they could get, you know, experience of where we're at.

And they were always good guys. They really were. They were always good guys. H.R.T. I don't, never, never saw them. They just, you know, completely different mission set. They're generally speaking, they're conists. We're O-Konis. There was a time we had HRT guys kind of attached to us, but when they were attached to us, they were just evidence collectors. You know, they weren't shooters by any stretch of imagination.

And nor could they be. They, you know, they haven't gone through our level of training. Joe's got you. Thank you very much. Did you work a lot with 22 SAS while deployed? I think we got that one. Yeah, I think we kind of got that. Dog point.

There's another one. And I'll just tell you just a quick story of how much respect we have with the SAS. Obviously, we were modeled after those guys. They helped us out a lot with our tactics in the beginning. By the beginning, I mean, talking like 1977, you know, Charlie Beck with Founder Days. And that type of relationship has maintained for 40 plus years. So, I mean, I'll make up this, you know, this fictional scenario, but it's, but it's absolutely true. If I was in Syria and some, you know, and heck, I'll make it close to him, a green beret.

A green beret comes and knocks on my door and like, hey, you know, heard who you guys are. I just want to come over and say hi. I'd be like, go walk 40 miles and you can come back and say hi. You know, you know, I'd say it nicer. But, yeah, but generally, generally speaking, that's turn it around, bring a foreigner to my door. A guy who's not even American, but make it an S-A-S-guy come and knock on my door and say, hey, hey, mate, you know, I'm with the two-two. I was told to come say hi. I'd open that door as fast as I could and bring them right on in.

Invite him for a spot of tea. That's right. Yeah, the relationship that the two units have are great. And I'll, I still talk to some of those guys. Great, great guys. dog point thank you uh what'd you like about your squadron what was the vibe like any funny stories there's there's always it it doesn't matter what part of this business you're in you know you work with the funniest guys you've you've ever been around you know and i don't care if you're

a seal green beret rage i don't care what you did you're just hanging out with the funniest guys you'll you'll you'll ever work with um Yeah, the vibe of my squadron, I think, was a very, was a good middle-of-the-road vibe. Like, we were very professional when needed to be and, you know, could kick back and relax when needed to be. I think other squadrons at times that were too professional and were very fun to be around. And, you know, some of them were, you know, were a little bit more, say, cowboy-ish. I don't mean to say that in a bad light. But I think we had a good balance of both.

And so I really enjoyed the culture of the squad and I was in. So Goldilock would find you guys just right. Yeah. Nick TCHH, well, this is actually for Jack. Will Mike Perry ever return? Maybe. If he wants to, sure. We'd love to have him back.

Dano. Mike Perry? Yeah. Yeah. First group, like Perry? Oh, no, obviously. I'm planning. Okay, the bare knuckle fighter, Mike Perry.

Not that, Mike Perry. Okay. Dano Notton Lions Den. Thank you. Delta leads the way. Big PP. 82nd Pugent Pugan Dragons. It was just a comment.

Yeah. And then. Hmm. So, Joe's got you. Thank you very much. You can talk or not talk about this, obviously. Was your squadron involved at all with the battle of Kasham in 2018 against Wagner Group? Yeah, I was in Darazar.

It was a good time. There's a news article about it. You can read it. Dogpoint. Thank you very much. When you went back to HVT Raids in Serio, was it? business as usual or did you have to change it up? Oh, more or less business as usual. You know, all the IEDs was definitely more of a thing on, you know, that type of, you know, gaining ground, conventional forces.

They're pulling back, you know, laying them all in. They still kept, you know, the knowledge of that and some of the TTPs. but generally speaking it was back to business as usual I believe that is it so tell us about FRCC and some of the things that you're involved in now yeah

when I got out of the military I had to figure out what I want to do when I grow up had no real solid plans that you know I did a couple like 1099 gigs contracting but all kona stuff i know i didn't want to go overseas and contract nothing against any of those guys who do you know i just you know it's not something that that i was looking to do um had a couple former unit guys uh you know start calling me up like hey

we're training a swat team here i need an extra instructor you want to come out i was like that sounds yeah i'd love to you know hang out with swat teams and you know try to transfer some of this knowledge that's really kind of very uniquely you know to us and kind of uniquely to unique two SWAT teams because they you know they they deal with with barricaded shooters active shooters things like that that that would happen on on our targets and I really enjoyed sharing information with those guys like I really did like I got a you know I felt like I you know every time I went and taught those guys that I I truly gave them the tools needed to be

just as effective, if not more effective, and to do business smarter to make sure that they can go home at night. And I'll never teach someone tactics where safety is somehow in like the lead of a reason for teaching a tactic. Never, never, never, never a safety ever played a part on that's why we do this tactic. but if the effectiveness can stay 100% the same and there is the same end result that this guy dies, yet I can increase your survivability, yeah, we'll talk about that. And so, you know, I got to basically show those guys the lessons that we learned in blood. Like I really wish I could say that we're so much smarter at the unit than everyone else, and that's why our tactics are so much better.

We're kind of smart, but the unfortunate truth is we just get to see a lot more targets, and we had to learn it the hard way like everyone else does. So we just get a lot more exposure to mistakes and to doing things wrong. And some of those things, it took us way too long to change the way we do business. So I'm really glad to be able to share that with. those guys. That's something that eventually turned into me and a SEAL Team 6 buddy were going to start or did start the beginning of a nonprofit to raise money for police officer for police officer training. Budget is such such a big deal to those guys. They have no budget. They want to

train. You know, they and sometimes they can get like equipment budgets and sometimes they have more equipment than you think they would that they would have because of certain grants, but training doesn't come along with it. And some departments don't have the necessarily equipment either. So it's a, it's really a diverse, you know, group of people you run into and SWAT teams. And I'm not talking about your, your wokeness term of diverse. You know, I'm talking about just the different, the different experience levels. the different training, the different equipment.

It's all over the place. So we're going to start a nonprofit. Come to find out, I don't like asking people for money, and that is an integral part of being a nonprofit. Right. It's much, it's a key component. It's a key component to a nonprofit. So I ended up starting first responders coffee company first.

you know, I'd much rather, you know, sell things, have an exchange for, you know, a value for a product, and then, you know, take the money we raised from that and put it towards first responders. So we started with the coffee company. We started November of last year. We've donated back a little over $20,000 in less than a year. And the truth is I love saying that number because it kind of. kind of sounds like a big number for a small business, but we get more requests than I could ever feel right now. So we won't be happy until we can stop telling departments that hear what we're doing and asking for help until we can fulfill all those requests.

We will never be satisfied. And so that comes into the next part of the business. You know, we could add another coffee line, which would take a lot of work and maybe add a little bit of revenue. avenue. But we decided on, hey, if we added a whole new product, we can get into a whole new, you know, group of purchasers. And so we started first responder cigar company and hopes of garnering a wider audience. And that's been great. That's been a little bit of a selfish pleasure because I smoke two to three of my own stash every day. And so I needed that at wholesale pricing. But besides that, if you think half of the country drinks coffee, but it is a very, you know, kind of convoluted market. There's a lot of people fighting in that space. Right. Even though I don't, you know, I could argue within first responders, yeah, that's a, there's a, you know, a multi-million, you know, person audience that, you know, that doesn't have a product, you know, kind of like ours catering to them.

So, you know, we do have a nice niche cut out in that area, but a small percentage of people smoke cigars. But we're the only cigar, you know, we're the own nasty. One of the very, very few American disabled veteran own, you know, cigar lines. And then, of course, the only one doing anything for first responders. Our cigar sales will probably take over our coffee sales in the next couple months if it continues. I'll check you guys out, Brent, because we smoke cigars on the show. We have our humidor here. So I'll definitely check out.

You got a box coming at you. All right. We're happy to support the cause. And we encourage everybody else to support the cause, whether it's for coffee or cigars. Or I guess you said whiskey, but I guess cognac would go better, right? First. Oh, there you go. Yeah.

Yeah, I kind of have this FRCCC thing going. Coffee, coniacs, cigars. Yeah. Yeah, company. We'll work with it. We'll massage that. But you guys can find them at FRCCCCCoffee.com. That's Foxrot Romeo Charlie Coffee.com.

Check them out. And it's going to be in the link. It's going to be in the show description also down below. And then also you started out as a guest on the anti-hero podcast, right? and then kind of worked your way up just through sheer talent and charisma. Right. He needed a co-coats with a small vocabulary, and I was the clear choice. And you guys, yeah, you can find the anti-hero podcast on YouTube and also on podcast platforms, right?

Your favorite podcast. So tell us about that. Yeah, it really coincides with the first responder. coffee company story. I think if I remember right, a local news channel picked up a story about us. And I just got a random email from, you know,

from a small podcast, you know, saying, hey, I'd love to have you on the show. I'm an Orange County deputy, which is the county I live in. I was like, well,

absolutely, I'll do a podcast with you. I mean, you're in my own backyard. Went over there, did a podcast with them. Really enjoyed it. It was a good time.

He's a really good dude. And a first responder. it was an easy conversation to have with him. He had me back on, you know, a couple more times. And, you know, the times I was on was always the, you know, his bigger shows. And, you know, not to be edgy, but it's just true and it happened. You know, I ended up saying something on a 30-second snippet on a podcast, ended up into a much bigger ordeal. try to make it real quick.

He just, he asked me, he asked me some off the wall question on a, on a first responder topic interview. And he goes, hey, well, are there any secrets like you want to tell me about, you know, black ops? I was like, no, I don't really have any, because be honest with you, most things get leaked.

So you probably know them all anyway. And then he randomly goes, did Robiniel kill Osama bin Laden? and I just I answered the way I kind of do in a team room and I go Rob O'Neill didn't kill bin Laden it's the worst kept secret in all of special operations and he cut that as a snippet and posted it as the promo although it had nothing to do with the with the episode and it goes viral Brent you rabble rouser and Rob O'Neill did he actually respond to that or

So for anybody who is curious, you do have to check out like the full episode where you go into the weeds with it, which was episode 37. 37. So the problem with that was it was cut as a teaser, an unintentional teaser. So it wasn't a teaser that was going to go into something more. That was it. That was just my comment about it. It goes viral and has, I don't know, between all of a million views. And a lot of people were upset.

They're like, you can't just say something like that and not back it up. And there was a lot of that. And a lot of people just upset that, you know, I would make such a claim without any, you can't call someone a liar and have no, you know, evidence to it. So it took me a little bit. I was like, you know what? They're right. So I came back out with a two and a half hour podcast talking about this exact subject,

taking open source information from from Matt Bissanet to your guys' podcast to you know to not not my normal star witness but uh um um Osama bin Laden's wife who was also in the room actually makes a statement about what happened that night. Uh hate to hate to ruin a surprise ending but everyone's story are all the same except for one. So everybody's lying but Rob. Everyone's no, Rob is the only outlier in here. Everyone else has the same exact story about what happened that night,

except for the guy making millions off of it. I mean, words like stolen valor are being thrown around, but I don't know. You can use your own words. So, yeah, and people should go check out that podcast,

the deep dive that you guys did. Well, in the podcast, in general because you guys cover a lot of really cool topics because you talk about I mean a lot of first responder stuff I mean and you guys you guys call out bullshit where you see bullshit too we we do but invite I told him although my co-host Tyler really uh he has you know very like of uh you know he loves punk rock and he has that he likes that culture and he doesn't he doesn't mind mixing it up a little bit although ironically enough uh you know that that comment makes it look

looks like I'm, I'm more than happy to stir things up. But the truth is, you know, I stepped in it and then I had to own it. And I told, you know, the anti-hero podcast when I came on at the day, I really want this to be a platform where we can tell the stories of first responders that I just don't think get told. And there's always going to be the, and we'll have those stories on. In fact, we have one coming tomorrow, a cop that got that took around and, you know, got shot in the line of duty.

You know, that's very, you know, very unique to any profession. You know, there's cops getting shot all over this country. It's an epidemic. And it's, it's horrible. But, you know, those, those stories are out there. But let me tell you, there are stories out there that paramedics and ambulance, you know, writers can tell you that never get a voice and never get to tell, you know, their side of the story. They see some of the worst stuff day in and day out.

Kids and moms getting mangled in a car wreck, you know, on the way to, you know, on the way to school. Just things that are that are horrible. But, you know, they, you know, I just want to make, I want to get a platform out there to where all first responders that's great. Yeah, I can. Like, that's fantastic. And yeah, I mean, like, it's weird that the reporting on police shootings, police being shot, like, it's gone way down, but police are like getting shot a lot out there.

right now. Two police officers in, uh, at, uh, in Orlando just, just got shot a couple weeks ago. Um, and, and here's, and here's a what's, uh, here's what's a really cool story. Usually when that happens, it, it, however, it's how it seems is, uh, you know, the suspect flees into a, a county or, you know, or an area outside the SWAT team's jurisdiction. So it's just, just the way it happens. Not, not, not, not, not. Not often enough does the local SWAT team whose brother and sister you just shot get to go take care of it. But that's exactly what happened in Orlando. This guy holds up in a hotel still within the Orlando city limits and the SWAT guys go to work.

And that guy got the good news that night. I guess I'm assuming he resisted arrest or had a gun he shouldn't have. And the good news is he doesn't have to go through the court system. He's already got a sentence. And I got to send those guys a whole box of cigars with a handwritten letter. And I said, hey, you know, enjoy this. You know, taking human life is obviously something you should, you should never be, you know, taken lightly. But that being said, not everyone here deserves this life.

And I gave them just a long, heartfelt letter that said, like, you know, I've gone through doors. It worked out well tonight, but I know, I know what it feels like to not know how tonight's going to work out right before that door opens. Right. You know, and just, you know, some kind of intimate stuff about it. And they loved it. They framed it. They smoked my cigars. And, you know, and they're back at it.

Take, you know, removing bad guys from the streets, you know, every other night. And I love that about SWAT teams. Yeah. Brent, again, man, thank you for doing this tonight. And I just want to let people know, we'll be back Monday with William Osgood, who's Special Forces in Vietnam. And then next Friday, we're going to have Robin Horsfall on the show, who was in SAS. So we're really looking forward to talking to those two guys this upcoming week.

Brent, any final thoughts before we wrap up tonight? No, I just, again, I couldn't be any more humbled. you guys have me on here and thinking that my story is interesting enough to listen to me, run my rap my run my trap for a couple of hours. No, you were great, man. It was really fascinating. And I really appreciate you doing this. Yeah, we deeply appreciate your time.

What, uh, can, are you on social media much? Can people follow you if they're interested? I, uh, some, some habits I, I didn't want to break. Um, the only social media I have is, is the business. And, uh, and, and I keep it there. And I didn't even want to learn that part of social. media, but I had to.

There you go. That's cool. People can go check that out. So definitely check out FRCCC, first responder, a coffee company, cigar company, and soon-to-be-cognac company, or Cerva Company. You'll figure something out. Yeah. Get something out.

And check print out on the anti-hero podcast. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, like I said, hit us up when you're coming through New York sometime. you want to light up some Stogeys we'll be around and everyone else out there have a nice weekend and we will see you on monday yep and r s thank you thank you we just saw your donation thank you